Afleveringen
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Dr Elmar Jung
Dr. Elmar Jung, a distinguished figure in the realm of holistic and biological dentistry. Dr. Jung, who is not only the founder of Dr. Elmar Jung Dental Clinic but also a naturopath, author, podcaster, and an international speaker, has dedicated nearly 35 years to advocating for an integrative holistic approach in dental practice since graduating from dental school.
We delve into the critical role of oral health as an integral component of overall wellness. Dr. Jung shares his cal unique perspective on holistic dentistry, including his critiques of traditional practices like amalgam fillings, root canals, orthodontics and more. The interview also goes into a discussion on views on fluoride use, the significance of dental and patient education, and the evolving dynamic between patients and healthcare providers.
Furthermore, Dr. Jung emphasizes the importance of diet, lifestyle, emotions, and breathing in maintaining not just oral health, but also its influence on our general health.
The interview concludes with a discussion on the future of holistic dentistry, particularly how patient education and self-awareness are pivotal in empowering individuals to take charge of their health.
Time Stamps
00:54 Growing Up in Germany, Dental Training04:31 Dental Education in West and East Germany and Lessons for Today06:39 Questioning Professors/Authority10:11 Holistic Dentistry vs. Traditional Dentistry13:05 On Oral Health Being Separated from Overall Health17:04 The Meridian Tooth Chart19:55 Discussion on Root Canals29:48 Discussion on Amalgam, Composite, and Other Fillings, Removal Issues39:35 His Relationship with Traditional Dentists42:35 Discussion on Patient-Doctor Relationships47:48 Discussion on Fluoride53:40 Discussion on Regulatory Capture/Industry Interests55:11 Conventional Orthodontists vs. Holistic Orthodontist Practices57:24 Breastfeeding and Oral Development01:04:50 Salivary Diagnostics/Oral Biome01:09:10 Oral Health Post-Covid/Pandemic Effects01:13:45 Remineralizing Teeth/Importance of Diet01:14:19 Breathing and Oral Health01:17:00 Diet/Lifestyle Recommendations01:19:17 Future of Holistic Dentistry01:27:51 The Role of Emotions in Oral Health01:32:00 How to Download Dr Jungâs Book / Closing Statements
More information: @ Dr-Elmar-Jung.com
Twitter: @elmarjung
Music Sample from 'Symmetry' | Denovali Records by Ricardo Donoso
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Dr. Janet Hoskins is a professor of Anthropology and Religion at the University of Southern California. She has conducted extensive field research in Indonesia, Vietnam, and California. Dr. Hoskins holds an MA and PhD in anthropology from Harvard University, and a BA in anthropology from Pomona College.
Her current research interests include the emerging field of Transpacific Studies, post-colonial studies, transnational religions, visual anthropology and ethnography, material culture, theories of time and history, gender, exchange, and ritual.
We discuss her long career in anthropology, her fieldwork, her thoughts on anthropological pessimism vs. optimism, globalization vs. hybridization, the role of photography in visual anthropology, the anthropology of tourism, and ultimately what people can take away from the study of anthropology and more.
Time Stamps:
3:00 - Anthropological Optimism vs. Pessimism 7:32 - Biography8:38 - Field Work in Sumba / Romantic Ideals in Anthropology10:32 - Field Work like Returning to Childhood16:32 - What we can learn from Anthropology19:47 - Time Keeping Across Cultures23:23 - On Cultural Relativism 29:34 - On Ethnography / Visual Anthropology40:55 - On Hybridization vs Globalization 43:47 - How cultural anthropology affected her parenting50:04 - On the indigenous and the non-indigenous52:55 - On Cao Daoism - Discovering this new religion in Southern California1:01:00 - On Phoenix Boxes / Spirit Writing in Cao Dao / Religious Plurality 1:12:23 - On Being an American 1:14:45 - Connecting with Dr Janet Hoskins1:16:09 - PhD Students of Note 1:17:09 - Take Away Lessons
More information
Dr. Janet Hoskins @ USC
Headshot Credit: Janet Chauvet caveOther photos: Dr Janet Hoskins
Music Sample:MARAPU - WELCOME TO SUMBA Author: Feryanto Pekabanda (Yanto Marapu) & Arnaud MarianiComposition: Marapu Band
Headshot Credit: Janet Chauvet caveOther photos: Dr Janet Hoskins
Dr Hoskins in Sumba, Indonesia (1980)
Sumba Meat Distribution (1980)
Janet Syl Mis Tay Ninh (2005)
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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is an imaginative writer from Oakland, California known for his intriguing work of speculative philosophy published on Substack as The Spouter.
Viewed through a Marxist lens, The Spouter presents an unconventional narrative on petroleum's role in shaping contemporary history.
Our discussion spans a range of captivating topics. We examine the historical significance of petroleum and Jed's efforts to ignite a revolutionary approach to climate discourse.
We navigate through the complex interplay between humanity and fossil fuelsâoil, coal, and gasâanalyzing them from various viewpoints: religious, materialistic, Marxist, speculative, and literary. This multifaceted exploration aims to challenge and transform the conventional narrative surrounding climate change.
We also wander into the realms of hyperstition and cybernetics, reflecting on the impact of analog technology, typewriters, and the role of speculative philosophy. We touch upon literary masterpieces like Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" and Reza Negarestani's "Cyclonopedia," among other intriguing subjects.
Jed encourages a spirit of open-minded inquiry. He argues that while you may not align with all his ideas, they serve as a catalyst for sparking new questions and fostering a more nuanced, complex perspective on history and current affairs.
Get âNoidedâ as The Spouter arguesâŠ
Intro Music Sample from Acediast / âMalformed Canticle of Despondent Langourâ, Tristidigezh Records 2022.
Time Stamps
1:57 - Typewriters and analog technology 4:33 - Finding Inspiration in Cyclonopedia for the project The Spouter6:19 - Schizophrenia Reading and Cybernetics Role of Speculative Philosophy 11:41 - The Concept of Sentient Oil 15:30 - Capitalism and Other Hyperobjects 19:30 - Hyperstition 20:07 - The Global Warming Discourse23:47- Cybernetics, environmentalism and control/fragmentation of reality 34:04 - Communism as hyperobject40:24 - Sentient oil seen thru religious analysis - discussion on the Jinn50:24 - Discussion on return to religion in society 55:10 - How to regain humanism60:21 - Paranoid sensibility / Parapolitical sensibility - Getting ânoidedâ61:55 - Gravityâs Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon 65:35 - On possession by the hyperobject68:14- Jed's book and where to find his writing 70:05 - Material Analysis in Understanding History
Further Reading / Notes from (The Spouter)
Cited and Recommended
Cyclonopedia: Complicity with Anonymous Materials. Reza Negarestani, Re:Press 2008.
Knot of the Soul: Madness, Psychosis, Islam. Stefania Pandolfo, University of Chicago Press, 2018.
- Re: Jinn
Thirst for Annihilation: George Bataille and Virulent Nihilism. Nick Land, Routledge, 1992.
- Nick Land did coin the term âHyperstitionâ, though probably not in this book. This one is probably the most relevant to our conversation.
Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia Volume 1. Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. Try to get the translation from University of Minnesota Press, 1983. (I havenât read the Penguin translation.)
A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia Volume 2. Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. Minnesota, 1983
Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World. Timothy Morton, University of Minnesota Press, 2013.
The Ecological Thought. Timothy Morton, Harvard University Press, 2012.
- This was what I was reading when the phrase/slogan âModernity is the process of oil getting into everythingâ arose â the text might not say exactly that, but this is where it is from, and I consider it foundational to my work.
Ecology and Socialism: Solutions to Capitalist Ecological Crisis. Chris Williams, Haymarket Books, 2010
- Recommended. Much easier to parse than John Bellamy Fosterâs ecological socialism.
The Closing Circle: Nature, Man & Technology. Barry Commoner, Random House 1971.
- An example of good/less compromised ecological writing of the type suppressed by the suspect texts listed below.
Cited and Argued With
The Progress of This Storm: Nature and Society in a Warming World. Andreas Malm, Verso, 2020.
Donella Meadows, Dennis L. Meadows, Jorgen Randers, William W. Behrens III. Universe Books, 1971.
Gaia: A New Look at Life on Earth. James Lovelock. Oxford University Press, 1979.
The Ages of Gaia: A Biography of Earth. James Lovelock. Norton, 1988.
Books You Should Prioritize Reading
The Jakarta Method: Washingtonâs Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program That Shaped Our World. Vincent Bevins, PublicAffairs 2020.
- Highly recommended gateway drug to noided history.
Gravityâs Rainbow. Thomas Pynchon, 1973.
- I have to convince people to read it, since itâs a hard book; believe me when I tell you the effort will pay off. Lots of these âbigâ books like Ulysses and Moby Dick, maybe the effort isnât worth it for some people. Gravityâs Rainbow is worth it for everyone. I know that people are busy and attention spans are short. But anyone who doesnât read it really is missing out on something revelatory and very compelling.
Zionism in the Age of Dictators. Lenni Brenner, 1983.
- Available online at Marxists.org
- Worth reading for anyone who doesnât understand how the settler colonial project of Israel came to be, because it points out something that people donât want to talk about.
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Writing under the pseudonym, ARX-Han and using a voice modulator for this interview, this writer and novelist joins me to explore his debut work âIncel.â
"Incel" by ARX-Han is a darkly satirical and unsettling portrayal of a sexually frustrated American man's internal journey. The novel offers an unfiltered glimpse into his increasingly radical, obsessive, and destructive mindset. Praised for its technical prowess, linguistic versatility, and sharp cultural critique, it presents a timely and insightful examination of a disaffected segment of society.
A stirring exploration of masculinity, rage, nihilism, and the nuances of evolutionary biology, Han's work is a bold commentary on the complex matrix of contemporary young male psychology.
We explore in detail his creative approach to philosophical fiction, the constraints of modern publishing, and discuss his journey to authentically capture the raw and unfiltered facets of the contemporary experience.
The interview sheds light on how the digital age, notably the impact of the internet and social media, has significantly shaped the contemporary cultural evolution to a point of civilization decay. We also discuss AI, psychological operations, memetic defense and a slew of other interesting topics.
Han links his fascination with flawed characters and the poignant exploration of human suffering. ARX-Han ultimately lands on lessons in universality and we reach in this interview over laughs to a positive nexus on the human condition, love, and a rejection of nihilistic reductionism.
Time Stamps
2:43 The use of pen name ARX-Han and pseudonymity9:17 Biographical Points 12:25 On MFA Culture / Working with a Development Editor15:49 ARX-Han mindset writing âIncelâ19:49 Anon, Young Men and disenchantment in scientific reductionism 24:19 Death of God31:19 What is an incel?36:31 Sources of Civilization Decay39:25 âMansophereâ and discussion on mimetic transmission45:05 Memetic Defense49:00 Tension in Writing52:38 Purity Tests and The Aesthetic Overton Window1:04:00 âWordcels,â AI, Writing, Finding meaning in Creative Pursuits1:09:17 Pan-psychism / Spirituality / Things Getting Weird 1:18:00 Role of Aesthetics / Marketing / Manga Cover vs V2 Cover1:24:00 Publishing Gate Keepers / Morality linearly descended from Protestantism1:26:15 âBro, just buy my bookâ - Humor and Hope - âJust Do itâ
Note: AI Generated Transcript - Apologies for errors.
Follow Arx-Han:
DecentralizedFiction.com
Twitter.com/Arx_han
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While strolling along the Hudson River in New York City, Jason Trucco joins me to discuss his career in filmmaking, directing, art, design, and playwriting. In this insightful interview, Trucco opens up about his multifaceted career jumping between the avant garden and the commercial, including directing music videos for icons like Billy Idol, Macy Gray, Devo, and Queens of the Stone Age. Throughout his career he has used new technology in narrative story telling Trucco delves into the integration of AI and immersive technologies in his craft.
We delve deep into his ongoing projects, examining the pivotal role of collaboration, and discussing the crucial elements of passion, creativity, and the inspirational role of walking in his artistic pursuits.
Trucco discusses his creative approach, how he navigates his relationship with his inner critic, and explores the financial challenges of being an artist.
Emphasizing the importance of play, curiosity, and following one's interests in the creative process this interview is insightful for those interested in creative entrepreneurship and the lessons that be applied to other sectors.
Time Stamps
* 03:40 - Jasonâs Bio / Introduction
* 06:09 - Making Music Videos
* 10:14 - The Role of Technology in Narrative Story Telling
* 11:12 - Theatre as Retraction from Technology?
* 14:01 - Co-Directing Hi-Fi, Wi-Fi Sci-Fi
* 19:01 - Technology and Formulaic / Regurgitation Storytelling
* 20:58 - How Jason Approaches a Project
* 23:40 - The Role of Guilty Pleasures
* 24:58 - Where ideas come fromâŠ
* 27:00 - The Importance of Collaboration
* 30:10 - On walking and its importance
* 32:19 - Six Sex Scenes in Spain / One Act Plays
* 34:10 - The Role of The Inner Critic
* 39:19 - Financial Challenges
* 46:04 - Fear and âWe only have these problems while we're aliveâ
* 55:03 - Responsibility in Art Making / Discussion on Casting Narrative âSpellsâ
* 57:49 - Making âPoetryâ / Reverberating Experience with Others
Intro Music FeaturesCalifornia Stars Words by Woody GuthrieMusic by Jay Bennett & Jeff TweedyPerformed by Paula & Jason Band - On their cassette, New York Apartment Tapes
Full Transcript @ Leafbox.com
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Today I had the pleasure to speaking one of Australia's leading experts in tobacco control, Dr. Colin Mendelsohn. With over three decades of dedicated service in smoking cessation and tobacco harm reduction, Dr. Mendelsohn's expertise is both rare and invaluable. In our discussion, we delve into the complex world of public health, examining the often unnoticed echo chambers, the intricate web of incentives that shape government policies, and the impact of societal and governmental biases on public health decisions.
This episode is more than just a talk on tobacco control; it's a lens to try to understand the authoritative landscape of Australian and public health in general, exploring alternative approaches and addressing solutions on a global scale.
Our conversation culminates in a crucial discussion about the importance of being open to evidence in public health, particularly in tobacco and smoking control. Dr. Mendelsohn, with his focus on harm reduction, provides a unique perspective on this issue, advocating for the use of safer nicotine products like vaping and smokeless tobacco for those who struggle to quit smoking.
Whether you're a non-smoker intrigued by the complexities of public health or a smoker seeking safer alternatives, this episode promises to challenge some of your understanding of nicotine, tobacco and solutions in public health.
Disclaimer: No Tobacco Company / Product Conflict of Interest
Neither Dr. Colin Mendelsohn nor I have any affiliations with tobacco control products or companies. Our discussion was conducted independently, without any commercial interests or influence from tobacco companies. The purpose of this discourse was solely to explore and debate potential public health issues, free from any commercial bias or conflicts.
Time Stamps
03:14: Biographical And Career Overview06:14: Australian Tobacco Situational Overview11:00 Discussion on âdemonizationâ of Tobacco Users/Smokers14:47 Uses cases for nicotine , understanding users 18:07: Ideological Issues + Biases in Australian Public Health22:23: Discussion on Australian Authoritarian / âNanny Stateâ Public Health 25:25 Nicotine Prescriptions + Taxes Effects / Black Market Forces 32:32 Harm Reduction Model for Nicotine / Tobacco Control36:08 Discussion on Vaping / Flavor Additives / Childrenâs Issues41:06 China / Smoking vs Vaping in China / India44:09 Smoking Cessation Tools48:08 Marijuna Vaping vs Smoking50:27: Discussion on Conflicts of Interests54:56 Maintaining Openness to Evidence / Avoiding ideological silos01:00:47 Discussion on Polarization / Disinformation / Information01:06:00: Closing Remarks: Importance of quitting smoking and exploring safer alternatives.
More Information:
Dr Mendelsohnâs âFarewell Retirement Letterâ Referenced in Conversation
X / Twitter: @ColinMendelsohn
More Info @ https://colinmendelsohn.com.au/
Founding Chairman, Australian Tobacco Harm Reduction Association charity
Book: Stop Smoking Start Vaping
Transcription (AI Generated Transcript - please excuse any mistakes in transcription!)
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Today I had the pleasure of connecting with fellow surfer and ocean lover Thomas Farber. Thomas Farber is a master in capturing the essence of lifeâs intimate moments, condensing the most profound into beautiful profound vignettes.
Awarded Guggenheim and, three times, National Endowment fellowships for fiction and creative nonfiction, Thomas Farber has been a Fulbright Scholar, recipient of the Dorothea Lange-Paul Taylor Prize, and Rockefeller Foundation scholar at Bellagio.
An Author of over 20 books of fiction and creative non fiction and has just published two new collections, Acting my Age and Penultimates.
Awarded Guggenheim and, three times, National Endowment fellowships for fiction and creative nonfiction, Thomas Farber has been a Fulbright Scholar, recipient of the Dorothea Lange-Paul Taylor Prize, and Rockefeller Foundation scholar at Bellagio.
Thomas Farber's other recent books include Here and Gone, The End of My Wits, Brief Nudity and The Beholder. Former Visiting Distinguished Writer at the University of Hawai'i, he teaches at the University of California, Berkeley.
We connect today about his latest meditations on life, death, writing, the sea, women, Diamond Head and much more. All with humor, humility, gravitas, and wisdom, Iâm grateful for his enduring lessons.
Time Stamps
(2:27) Wearing Black, Theatre Playing the âwriterâ(4:06) Publishing Acting by Age with Manoa Journal(9:33) Growing Older/ Acceptance / Being a Child of the 60s
(11:06) On Spirituality
(15:57 ) The Banayan Tree / HÄmÄkuapoko Ruins Maui
(17:57) First Trips to Hawaii 1971
(21:56) Collaboration with Wayne Levin
(27:40) On Sailboats / The Book Of Love
(30:18) On Minimalism, Scuba Gear, Surfboards
(32:04) Epigrams
(37:55) The 96 Year Old âCarrotâ
(39:32) On his novel The Beholder, writing about physical love
(42:27) Doom Scrolling
(44:44) Advice to young writers
(46:32) Making Amends; New Projects
(52:00) Jean Cocteau and the importance of readers
More Info @ https://thomasfarber.org/
Excerpt: Ruins 1999 By Thomas Farber
Headshot Credit: Ugo Corte
Book Cover Photos: Wayne Levin
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Josh Mitteldorf, is a science writer, researcher in biology of aging, and poet, with a rebellious spirit and persistent curiosity. His interests span all the biggest topics in current affairs, as well as eternal questions of the human condition. Who is behind the pandemic and other assaults on humanity? Why do ETs look like us? Can the future reach back in time to cause the past? Are there transformative technologies, available to a select few that have been withheld from the public?
Dr Mitteldorf earned a Ph.D. in astrophysics from the University of Pennsylvania. He has written a popular book and an academic book on the biology of aging. His websites include Aging Matters Blog, Experimental Frontiers, the Daily Inspiration, and Unauthorized Science. His forthcoming book includes a sonnet and graphic for each of the 64 hexagrams of the I Ching.
Dr Mitteldorf lives in Philadelphia, where he teaches a weekly yoga class and plays in chamber music groups and a community orchestra. His two daughters were adopted from China in the 1980s, breaking diplomatic ground for a wave of Chinese-American adoptions in the following decades.
The interview delves into both his biographical and psychological past, unveiling the complex and multifaceted life of Dr. Mitteldorf. He seamlessly blends science, spirituality, and a profound sense of social responsibility in his pursuit to enhance the human experience.
The episode concludes with a poem reflecting his belief in the interconnectedness of all beings. Listen for the threads that tie together the spiritual, scientific, and activist pursuits of this extraordinary individual.
Photo Credit: Josh Mitteldorf
Time Stamps
(01:40) Intro
(04:16) Connecting the Threads of Joshâs Work - Buying Freedom
(07:31) Graduate Studies Berkeley, Life in Taiwan and Return to the US
(13:38) Caloric Restriction and Interest in Evolution Biology
(20:28) Predator / Prey Model and Evolutionary Basis for Death
(23:35) Thoughts on Anti-Aging Communities and Options
(26:42) Transhumanist Movement / Materialist World Views/ Post Materialist Physics / Consciousness
(32:49) Spiritual Awakening / from Secular Jew to Quaker to Yoga
(37:55) Political Awakening / Work on Election Integrity 2004 / 9-11
(44:15) Confidence and Group Dynamics
(49:16) Eye Of the Storm / Collective Unconscious
(52:02) UAP / UFO Phenomenon / Unauthorized Science
(1:01:44) Poem: Intersubjective Bootstrap
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Craig Steely, an American architect based both in Hawaii and California shares his philosophy on life and design.
Craig's work stands out for its seamless integration of modern design with natural environments, creating spaces that are as stunning as they are sustainable. From his iconic Lavaflow homes in Hawaii to his urban homes in San Francisco, Craig's approach to architecture challenges conventional boundaries and invites us to reimagine our relationship with form, shape and our surroundings.
I had the pleasure of speaking in detail with Craig on the importance of respecting the land and the environment in his projects, the influence of his experiences in Hawaii and California, the importance of maintaining a small, focused team in his practice, and the value of being able to work on a variety of scales and types of projects. Steely also shares his thoughts on the current state of architecture education, and the importance of critical thinking and a deep understanding of the land and environment in architectural practice.
As an architecture enthusiast and developer the conversation is refreshing and invigorating for those interested in thoughtful design and approach to building.
Topic Time Stamps
* (3:31) On being an outsider in Hawaii and California
* (5:04) The D-Fin House / Relationship to clients
* (7:41) Approach to land and geography
* (11:23) Escaping design echo chambers / democratic design
* (14:22) Getting lost in the power of form and shape
* (18:22) On building the same house over and over
* (21:22) On surfing and its influence
* (24:07) Architecture and parenting
* (27:07) On scale of architecture practice
* (31:28) On the value of architecture education as creative problem discipline
* (37:28) On architecture in Hawaii
* (40:00) Relationship to the large scale / thoughts on urban planning
* (47:20) On compromise in design
* (48:14) On letting going of fears
* (52:00) On the value of feral projects
* (54:14) Conversation Pits and architecture tools
* (57:34) On the future and new projects in Mexico
Learn more about his practice @ Craig Steely Architecture
Photos: Darren Bradley / Craig Steely Architecture
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Keturah Lamb, an American writer, educator, and community builder, discusses her unconventional upbringing, her philosophy, her projects, and her views on technology and society. Raised in a family that rejected social security cards for four generations, Lamb was homeschooled and grew up in various locations across the US. She has hosted workshops through her project, the Living Room Academy, to pass on traditional knowledge and skills regarding home building, community building and more. She also shares her experiences of traveling and meeting different communities, her approach to using the internet, and her thoughts on politics and spirituality. She emphasizes the importance of community building, hospitality, and sacrifice in her life and work.
Topic Time Stamps
* (4:31) Keturahâs upbringing and unconventional lifestyle
* (9:31) Views on religion and her current spiritual practices
* (14:02) Ketura's approach to aesthetics and her Living Room Academy project
* (19:31) Demographics and a Response to Ketura's work and projects
* (28:55) Rumspringa
* (33:10) Travel and the 12 Tribes
* (35:12) Church jumping
* (37:14) Relationship to Internet and Social Media
* (45:02)Writing practice and community building
* (47:03) Keturahâs Politics
* (51:51) Dating advice for others
* (53:58) Spiritual framework and her views on gossip
* (56:12) Gossip
* (59:02) Current focus and future projects
* (1:04) The role of sacrifice / closing thoughts
Connect with her work:
The Living Room Academy Projecthttps://www.livingroomacademy.com/
She writes
- On Point Whimsical Fiction And Essays
The Girl Who Does Not ExistGuide to life without a Social Security Numberhttps://thegirlwhodoesntexist.com/
Find her on Twitter: @KeturahAbigail
Interview Transcript @ Leafbox.com
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Dr. Shoji Nakayama, active in Japanese medical and public health research, delves into his extensive career centered around environmental health and public safety.
Dr Nakayama is currently serving as the deputy director of Japan's Environmental Children's Health Study (JECS), involving over 100,000 participants, Dr. Nakayama advocates for transformative approaches in public health â focusing on altering environments rather than solely individual behaviors. He is passionate about interdisciplinary approach to biomonitoring, exposome research and improving public health.
We overview his career, his passion for public health, his exciting career in post disaster public health research, his groundbreaking research on forever chemicals substances and emerging contaminants.
His vision extends to advocating for multidisciplinary methods in biomonitoring and exposome research, recognizing the complex interplay of factors affecting public health.
Topics Covered with Time Stamps
* (0:40) Dr. Nakayamaâs transformative journey from clinical medicine to public health advocacy
* (7:47) His pioneering research on the implications of forever chemicals and emerging contaminants
* (13:15) Research in fluorinated and experience at US EPA
* (26:28) Insights in Regulation , EU vs US vs JP
* (27:44) Lessons learned from disaster response following the 2011 earthquake in Japan
* (35:47) The importance of Disaster Response Research
* (39:25) Insights from the monumental Japan Environmental Children's Health Study
* (44:30) The expansive realm of exposome research and its practical applications
* (46:54) Collaborative approaches in public health and the hurdles in research funding and policy formulation
* (49:14) Discussion on Environmental Effects at a Population Level vs Individual Level
* (55:16) Urbanization, green spaces, and their health implications
* (57:35) Navigating public health challenges during the COVID-19 pandemic in Japan
* (59:00) Debates and developments around HPV vaccination in Japan
* (1:00) Dr. Nakayamaâs source for his enduring commitment and passion for advancing public health.
Japan's Environmental Children's Health Study
Elsevier Profile: Shoji F. Nakayama, MD, PhD
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Randal O'Toole, an American policy analyst, discusses his maverick career, non consensus views on urban planning, transportation, and housing in this interview.
O'Toole runs the Thoreau Institute as well as the popular policy blog, The Antiplanner. He has written several books and hundreds of policy papers from a free market perspective on urban planning, government policy, housing, rail and other related land use topics. We explore his belief that urban planners often impose their preferences on the public, such as imposing restrictive land use planning codes to âforceâ people to live in apartments and use public transit, even though most people prefer single-family homes and driving. O'Toole also shares the impact of the pandemic on urban planning, reinforcing existing trends such as people moving to the suburbs and working from home. We discuss the potential of autonomous vehicles in replacing public transit in the future as well as his views on cycling.
In this interview, OâToole critiques the idea of planning itself and promotes the repeal of federal and state planning laws and the closure of state and local planning departments. He explores in detail why planning fails, through documentation of planning disasters, while giving context of his perspective on land use issues in Hawaii such as cycling, light rail, affording housing, and agricultural lands as well as providing solutions for environmental protection and stewardship.
Topics / Time Stamps
* (2:08) On Biking in Oahu
* (12:33) Educational Background and Current Work
* (16:05) Economics vs Planning
* (20:31) The Iconoclastic Mindset
* (24:25) Buses vs Light Rail
* (26:55) Criticism of the Honolulu Light Rail System
* (33:47) On New Urbanism
* (43:45) Urban Planning and the Pandemic
* (46:16) Solutions to non utilized urban cores / skyscrapers
* (49:06) The Iron Triangle
* (51:30) Autonomous vehicles as an alternative
* (54:07) Houston as Model
* (59:18) Incentive-based conservation
* (1:04) The Grassroot Institute
* (1:06) Hawaii Land Use Reforms Recommendations
* (1:12) Vacancy Taxes as Symptom
* (1:15) On Optimism
* (1:17) Policy Briefs
The Antiplanner: https://ti.org/antiplanner/
Policy Briefs: https://ti.org/antiplanner/?page_id=16274
The Education of an Iconoclast: https://ti.org/antiplanner/?page_id=16272
Leafbox:
Today I had the pleasure of speaking and learning from Randal O'Toole. He's an American policy analyst. He's written several books, hundreds of policy papers, and he provides solutions from a free market perspective to various problems. He runs a popular blog called The Antiplanner, and he's featured in several debates on urbanism, environmentalism, government policy. But today I was curious about exploring his biography and discussing his memoir, the Education of an Iconoclast. We discussed his shift from forestry to economics, his 50 year career, his thoughts on light rail and other transportation, housing solutions, bus, Hawaii, top down urban planning, Houston as a model for development and other topics. I hope you enjoy. Thanks for listening.
Leafbox:
Hi, good afternoon, Randal.
Randal O'Toole:
Can you hear me?
Leafbox:
Now I can. Perfect. Thank you for your punctuality and for rearranging the meeting. I know you're a busy man.
Randal O'Toole:
Great.
Leafbox:
Well, Randal, I just thank you so much for your time. I've been reading your blog on and off for years and this morning I was biking. I live in Oahu, so I think that's important visual wise.
Randal O'Toole:
Oh, I hate biking in Oahu. It is so awful.
Leafbox:
I bike every day about 10, 12 miles to drop off my daughter back and forth. I was listening to some of your debates you've had with people, mainly James Kunstler and obviously I love biking. I wanted to start with biking. There are many debates you have online about the pros and cons of government planning and light rail, but I really wanted to start with your relationship with cycling and how that influenced your political evolution because I read most of your excellent biography and memoirs and I just wanted to understand how that cycling framework has influenced your analysis of cities and urban planning and design and everything.
Randal O'Toole:
Well, it's funny. One of the very first transportation issues I got involved in, it wasn't the first, but it was early. It was about 1975. I was invited to attend meetings of the bicycle advisory committee for the city of Portland. And I was an ardent cyclist. I didn't even have a driver's license at the time and I worked in downtown Portland and I lived in the east side, which if you know Portland means you have to cross the river. And Portland has, I think 11 bridges now. Only nine of them are open to vehicles and only seven of them are open to bicycles. And the lanes tended to be pretty narrow and there was a lot of on and off ramps on some of those bridges. So I went to the advisory committee and I said, you need to put some curb cuts to make it easy for bicycles to use the sidewalks so that they aren't blocking your narrow lanes.
A couple of the bridges, the lanes were only like 12 feet wide and there was no ability to pass because there were structures on both sides of the lanes. And so if you were bicycling, it was kind of scary to have cars pass you in this narrow lane if you were in the lane. Now there was a sidewalk, but you couldn't get up to the sidewalk without stopping and getting off your bike and lifting the bike onto the sidewalk and so on. So I said, put in curb cuts. And the city said, oh, we can't do that. It would be too dangerous when the bicycles come off, the cars wouldn't expect it. And they'd hit the bicyclists and two years later they put in all the curb cuts and all the places I recommended. So I stopped going to those advisory committee meetings, but they ended up doing what I recommended.
Now it wasn't because I had recommended it, it was because that was the logical place to put it. Since then, I occasionally participated in bicycle proposals, but today what I'm seeing is that the bicycle community has been captured by the anti automobile community. Even though at the time I didn't have a driver's license, I wasn't anti automobile, I was a follower of John Forrester. John Forrester wrote a book called, what was it called? Anyway, he argued that bicycles were vehicles by law, they were treated as vehicles and so they should act like vehicles. They should assert themselves when they were in very narrow lanes and make sure that cars knew they were there, occupy the whole lane if necessary, but usually they should try to be a part of the flow of traffic and not expect any special lanes or anything like that. In fact, he argued that bicycle lanes actually made traffic more dangerous.
What's happened since then is that we've had movements, pro bicycle movements that have made bicycle list feel like they are superior to other vehicles in traffic. There was a movement called critical mass where hundreds or thousands of bicyclists would go at rush hour one day a week and occupy some entire streets that were vital streets for people getting home and disrupt traffic as much as possible. And the bicyclists who were attending these critical mass events were told You were superior, cars are inferior, you should have the right of way over cars at all times. And what we saw happen was bicyclists then would go away from these critical mass meetings and be convinced that they were superior and they would insist on occupying right away and asserting right away when they didn't actually have it and they would get hit more frequently. And we've seen an increase in bicycle fatalities in recent years.
And I think that's partly because critical mass has warped the perspective of bicyclists. And so we've had cities adopt plans that they claim are to make streets safer. They call them vision zero plan. And these vision zero plans often call for taking a four lane street, in other words, a major collector street that's moving a lot of traffic and take away one of the lanes from the automobiles and make it into bike lanes. So you'd have a 12 foot lane turned into two six foot lanes, one for bicyclists going one way and one for bicyclists going the other way. That leaves three lanes. One of the lanes would be used for left turns and the other two lanes would be for traffic in two different directions. Now that kind of project is designed to safeguard bicyclists from being hit from behind by cars. Well, on average, about 3% of bicycle fatalities consist of people being hit from behind by cars.
Now I'm a cyclist. I know you're always nervous about getting hit from behind, but the cars see you, they know you're there, and so they watch out. They don't want to hit you any more than you want to be hit by them. So only 3% of fatalities are being hit by cars from behind. Half of all fatalities take place at intersections where the bike lanes disappear. So we're safeguarding against a very rare event and not doing anything about the kind of event that is responsible for half of all bicycle fatalities by putting in the bike lanes, we're sending a message to bicyclists that it's safe to ride on this busy street. So we get an increase in bicyclists riding on these busy streets, which means you're get an increase in bicyclists crossing busy intersections and getting hit. So we're making bicycling more dangerous by creating an illusion of bicycle safety that isn't real.
I would've done something completely different. I would've taken local streets that are parallel to those busy streets and turned them into bicycle boulevards, which means you remove as many stop signs as you can so that you can have through bicycle traffic with minimal stops, but put in a few little concrete barriers to discourage cars from using those streets as through street. So you now have streets that are open to cars for local traffic and open to bicycles for through traffic. And I've used bicycle boulevards in Berkeley and Portland and other streets and they feel a lot safer. They are a lot safer and they don't cause the imposition on cars. It happens when you take lanes away from cars. So that's my attitudes towards cycling, which is that bicycles are vehicles, cars are vehicles. One should not be superior to the other. In certain situations, cars have the right of way and other situations, bicycles have the right of way. The safest thing we can do is separate them when we can by putting bicycles on bicycle boulevards instead of by asserting that bicycles are safe, by putting them into bike lanes when actually we're making it more dangerous.
Leafbox:
So Randal, you mentioned that you don't like biking in Oahu. What specifically do you not like about biking here?
Randal O'Toole:
Well, you've got a lot of busy streets. Their lanes are narrow. There's often not bike lanes where you do have bike lanes. They have strangely put two-way traffic in one bike lane. And so you have a risk of hitting other bicyclists, but you also have the risk that not only do you have bicyclists going with the flow of traffic, you have bicyclists going in the opposite flow from traffic. And so you're compounding the risk of not just having the risk of getting hit from behind, but having the risk of a head on collision. And I don't see that as particularly safe. I've bicycled, the last time I got hit by a truck was when I was bicycling in Maui on a bike lane and the truck was turning left into a driveway. I was bicycling at about 20 miles an hour. There was a lot of traffic and the truck didn't see me before it turned and I didn't see it until the last second and got hit by this truck. So again, it's another situation where bike lanes do not increase safety. It would've been better if there had been a local bicycle boulevard and I think you could probably put some bicycle boulevards in Oahu, but they haven't done that. Instead. Mostly bicycles are then for themselves and there are those few bike lanes downtown, which I didn't find particularly well designed.
Leafbox:
Randal, I should have asked first, but for people who aren't familiar with your work, I'm a fan of Antiplanner, but how do you describe yourself? What's a quick summary of your actual work and education and framework?
Randal O'Toole:
Well, the funny thing is my training is as a forester and I spent the first 20 years of my career as a forest policy analyst. I was analyzing government plans, Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management plans for mainly public lands, but also in some cases for private lands. That analysis carried over. I discovered that, well, what happened was is I was challenging the federal timber sale levels. They were selling a lot of timber, losing money at most of it, doing a lot of environmental damage. And in a nutshell:, we won federal timber sale levels declined by 85% between 1990 and 2000, and it was a great deal of that was due to my work. Part of it was due to the spotted owl, which I didn't really work on, but most of it was due to my work, which persuaded the forest service, that they were cutting too much timber and that they shouldn't be doing so much.
And so now having won that battle, I looked around for other battles to fight and came across battles that were going on with land use and transportation in the city I lived in, which was the Portland urban area. And extended that to found out that I was dealing with a movement that was a national movement that was trying to force people to stop driving, trying to force more people to live in apartments instead of single family homes. And since 98% of the travel we do in cities is driving, and since 80% of Americans want to live in single family homes, it seems to me that even though I was a bicyclist, I have to realize that most people don't bicycle. Most people drive. And even though I have lived in apartments, I have to realize that most people want to live in single family homes.
So I shouldn't be imposing my preferences on other people through some kind of planning process. So I began to challenge city plans, urban area plans, state plans, transportation plans, land use plans, and I discovered that there's a lot of similarities between forest planning and urban planning. Basically, forest planners think that there's these inanimate objects out in forest that they can make, do whatever they want. I actually found a forest plan that proposed they were going to grow trees to be 650 feet tall when the tallest trees in the world are less than 400 feet tall. Forest planners just thought they could imagine anything they want and it would happen. And urban planners think that there's these inanimate objects in cities that they can make, do whatever they want. And those inanimate objects are people and they think that, well, they can just force more people to live in apartments. They can just force more people to take transit or to bicycle instead of drive. And to me, those are very unappealing ideas and whether you're libertarian or not, you don't really like to think that somebody is trying to manipulate you to force you to use a much more expensive way of transportation or to live in a much less desirable home. That also happens to be more expensive than the single family home you might be living in. Now,
Leafbox:
When did that shift, I think in your memoirs, you started taking economics classes or was it when you were learning first computer modeling, when did that shift come in understanding reality versus imposed reality?
Randal O'Toole:
The funny thing was that when I was working on forest issues, I was making quite a name for myself. One Forest Service official told a reporter that Randal O'Toole has had more impact on the forest service than all the environmental groups combined. And so I would get speaking invitations and a professor at the University of Oregon Department of Urban Planning asked me to come and speak to his class, and I did at the time, I had a bachelor's degree in forestry and he said, you should go to graduate school, you should go to graduate school in our urban and regional planning department. And I said, well, I'm not really interested in urban planning. I'm interested in forest issues. He said, well, we also do regional planning, so they offered me funding support and things like that. So I said, okay, so I took the first terms worth of courses in urban planning and I looked around and I said, I shouldn't just take courses in one field.
I should also learn some other fields. And there was a course in urban economics, it was also a graduate course, and what I discovered was the urban economists didn't make any assumptions about cities. Instead, they looked at the data and then they tried to build for how the city works, they compared the model against the data and if the model didn't produce the data that they knew was real, they modified the model and then they compared that against the data and they kept modifying it until they got a model that came out pretty close to how the cities actually were working. So then they were able to ask questions of the model like what happens if you draw an urban growth boundary around the city and force the density of the city to get higher force higher densities, force more people to live in apartments instead of single family homes?
Will that result in more congestion or less? Well, the model clearly showed that although some people would respond to density by taking transit, most people would keep driving and the congestion would just get worse. Because you have more people driving per square mile of land because you'd have higher population densities? Well, in the urban planning courses, they asked the same question, and instead of building a model or looking at any data at all, they just said, well, I think if they were higher density people would ride transit more and so there'd be less congestion. And everybody in the class agreed. There were two urban planning professors in this class and they agreed and I said, no, the actual economic data show that the congestion would get worse. We went back and forth and finally one of the professors said, well, everybody's entitled to their opinion.
And that was the day I knew I wasn't going to become a planner, I was going to become an economist. So I stopped taking urban planning courses and I started taking economics courses and took a whole slew of those courses and still spent most of my time working on forest issues. And so I ended up not earning any degrees, but I think more like an economist than a planner. In fact, I think more like an economist than a forester. Foresters have a way of thinking. Geographers have a way of thinking. Landscape architects have a way of thinking. Economists and planners have ways of thinking, and I think like an economist. And so sometimes I'll call myself an economist even though I don't have a degree in economics. Sometimes I call myself a policy analyst even though I don't have a degree in policy analysis. My degree is in forestry. All of these things are alike in the sense that these planners and basically what I've spent my career doing is critiquing government plans. These planners think that they can impose things on the land or impose things on people that people don't want to have imposed on them.
Leafbox:
Going back to where does that iconoclastic mindset emerge from? I'm curious and how do you keep defending it? Why don't you go with the flow of the consensus?
Randal O'Toole:
Well, it's funny, I've always been an iconoclast. I grew my hair down well below my shoulders when I was in high school, which made the high schools vice principals hate me. I would leave school to go to anti-Vietnam protest marches or civil rights protest marches. I would skip school to go to environmental events and eventually started an environmental group in my high school when Earth Day came along that persuaded me that I should work on environmental issues. So I went to a forestry school where they taught people how to grow trees so they could cut them down and cut them up into forest products. And here I was not being real obvious about it, but being somewhat obvious because I was spending my summers doing internships, working on how to stop the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management and other agencies from cutting down trees.
And so I was always out of step and that seems to have continued throughout my career. One interesting example lately has been bus rapid transit. I spent a lot of the last 30 years of my career critiquing urban transit systems and we'd see cities like Portland and Seattle spending billions of dollars on rail transit and Honolulu now spending billions of dollars on rail transit and I'd say, wait a minute, bus rapid transit can move more people faster, faster to more destinations than rail transit. So instead of rail transit, we should be looking at bus rapid transit, and now we're seeing cities say, okay, we'll do bus rapid transit, but we won't do the kind of bus rapid transit Randal O'Toole was talking about, which was running buses on ordinary city streets. But the buses only stop once per mile like a rail line, and so they're faster.
They don't have to stop as frequently and they'll be more attractive to passengers both because they're faster and they're more frequent. Instead of just doing that, we're going to build special lanes for the buses. We're going to build fancy stops for all the buses, fancy stations for all the buses to stop at. And so instead of spending a million dollars a mile on bus rapid transit, we're going to spend $50 million a mile or a hundred million dollars a mile on bus rapid transit. We're going to make bus rapid transit as expensive as building rail transit. Well, I've lost interest in that, and so I'm now no longer enthusiastic behind bus rapid transit. Instead, the kind of transit I've been advocating is express buses, nonstop buses throughout urban areas that will take people from lots of origins to lots of different destinations with intervening 20 miles an hour, which is the average speed for bus rapid transit or 11 miles an hour, which is the average speed for local buses. They'll go at 50 miles or 55 miles an hour because they'll be going on freeways for most of their routes. Nobody else in the transit industry is thinking about this. So I guess I'm ahead of my time. I was talking about bus rapid transit before they were, and now I'm talking about express buses before anybody else. We'll see if they follow.
Leafbox:
Randal. These are like the buses, the Bolt bus in Los Angeles or San Francisco or the Chinatown buses in New York to Boston or DC or those type of private industry buses.
Randal O'Toole:
Those are intercity buses. And the interesting thing about the intercity bus industry is it used to be tied down by bus stations. You'd have these expensive bus stations in every city and they'd have baggage clerks and they'd have ticket salesmen and stuff like that. And the kind of buses you're mentioning, they've abandoned all that. They go from curbside to curbside, which means they don't have to pay for a station. They let the passengers load their own luggage, which means they don't have to pay for baggage handlers. You buy your tickets on the internet, which means they don't have to pay for ticket agents.
And that led to a huge resurgence in inter city buses. intercity buses buses were on the decline for about 1960 to 2005, and you started seeing these infrastructure light buses, megabus and bolt bus and so on, and suddenly bus ridership, intercity buses bus ridership is increasing. So we look at the transit industry and instead of saying, let's see, we've got this great infrastructure out there, it's called roads and streets. Let's run our transit on roads and streets. Instead of saying that, they're saying, let's build a lot of infrastructure that's dedicated solely to urban transit, and it's going to be really expensive infrastructure. We can build a lane mile of road for half a million dollars, but we're going to spend a hundred million dollars building a mile of rail or $200 million. There are some rail projects now that are costing $500 million per mile of rail.
That's a billion dollars a route mile because we have a mile of rail going in each direction. So we're spending phenomenal amounts of money for something that's only going to be used by a few transit riders because transit only carries half a percent of all passenger travel in this country. Before the pandemic, it was 1%, but now it's down to about a half a percent. Maybe it'll get us way back up to three-fourths of a percent. We're spending billions and billions of dollars on this tiny percentage of travelers with buses. We could attract the same number of people, move the same number of people, probably more people for a lot less money because the buses can go faster. Even New York City subways average less than 30 miles an hour, and buses on freeways can average 60 miles an hour.
Leafbox:
So Randal here in Hawaii about the new HART (Light Rail), I'd love to just a quick summary of your critiques of that system and why you think it was built.
Randal O'Toole:
Well, of course, when they first planned it, they said it was going to cost less than 3 billion. And in fact, the original proponents said that fares were going to pay not only all the operating costs, but they were going to pay part if not all of the capital costs. Well, the costs have exploded to well over $9 billion. The Federal Transit Administration thinks that by the time they're done, it's going to be $12 billion and they've run out of money. So they're saying we're not going to be able to finish it all the way immediately. Eventually we might get enough money to be able to finish it, but not right away. And the ridership numbers they were projecting were probably way too high. Certainly they're not getting anything close to what they were expecting with the part that's opened. That's partly because it's not finished and you look at it and all it really is a bus route.
They could have done exactly the same thing with buses. They could have gone just as fast if not faster with buses. They persuaded people to go for it. They said it's going to relieve congestion. Well, it's not going to relieve congestion. In fact, their own data show the congestion is going to increase near the transit stops because people were going to be slowing down and stopping there to pick up and drop off rail riders instead of people walking to the rail stations that were going to drive to the rail stations and have somebody drive them and drop them off. So their own data showed it was going to increase congestion, but they convinced people it was going to reduce congestion. And the onion had a great story many years ago saying 98% of American commuters want other people to ride transit so that they can drive in less congested traffic.
So transit agencies in Honolulu, in Los Angeles and San Diego and cities all over the country had convinced people to go for these extremely expensive transit projects by claiming that it was going to reduce congestion when in fact, on almost every case, it made congestion worse. And we made these critiques of the Honolulu Rail project before they began, before it began, the city council ignored us. They were heavily pressured by the unions that wanted jobs for constructing it. When the construction is done, there aren't going to be any jobs. The transit is automated, there aren't going to be jobs for drivers, there's going to be some maintenance jobs. There's going to be a tiny fraction, the jobs that they're getting for building. And so it was just basically unions and contractors wanted to build it. They threw money into the right campaign funds, and so politicians supported it.
So we end up seeing, and we're seeing us all over the country, we're seeing it for high speed rail, we're seeing it for Amtrak. We're seeing this what's called the iron triangle, which is people who make money from tax dollars in one corner of the triangle, the bureaucracy that another corner of the triangle and the politicians at a third corner of the triangle, the politicians appropriate money to the bureaucracy, which then give it out to the contractors who spend it and then who then take some of that money and use it for campaign contributions to the politicians. Very hard to break that triangle. We have found that if a measure goes on the ballot and we can spend 10% as much money as a proponent spend, we can usually reach enough voters to convince 'em to vote it down. But if we only reach five, only spend 5% as much as the proponent spend, it usually passes because they drown us out with their claims that it's going to relieve congestion and is education.
It's convincing people to be skeptical of government. We've got this huge movement now that's skeptical of capitalism and they don't realize that a lot of government is really crony capitalism where people take money from government to build up their companies. You've got companies that exclusively live off of government spending, and you see this in transportation. We've got all these engineering and consulting firms like Parsons Brinkerhoff, which has now got a new name WSR and HDR and a bunch of other companies, and they overtly lie. HDR has made a specialty of going to cities and saying, if you build rail transit, you're going to get billions of dollars of economic development. Look what happened in Portland. They built a light rail line and they got a billion dollars of economic development. They don't mention the fact that Portland got zero economic development after it built the light rail.
So 10 years after it opened the line, it threw a billion dollars in subsidies to developers along the light rail line, and those developers then put in new developments and they said, look, we built the light rail line. We've got all this new development. Well, you didn't mention the billion dollars in subsidies: where you didn't put in the subsidies, you got no new development, or you did put in the subsidies and you didn't have light rail, you got new development. It was the subsidies, not the light rail that got new development. HDR lies to people and claims it's the rail transit that got the new development. They even hired a city counselor in Portland, the person who had originally proposed these subsidies, and he traveled around the country telling cities that they put in the rail lines and they got all this development. He never mentioned the subsidies that he himself had initiated on the Portland City Council.
So you need to educate people and we need a skeptical public. We need people in the public who aren't going to automatically assume that government is good and that private operations, private companies are automatically bad. Private corporations aren't necessarily purely good, but given a choice between a public agency and a private corporation, I would rather have the private corporation because I can at least decide not to patronize that company if I don't like their products or what they do. Whereas when the government does something, I'm stuck with having to pay taxes for it whether I like it or not.
Leafbox:
What are your thoughts on New Urbanism? I think you've had debates with James Kunstler and have any of your thoughts changed or evolved or
Randal O'Toole:
Yes, they've evolved. I originally didn't like it and now I hate it. I originally thought new urbanism was a little misguided. Now I think they're delusional. Totally delusional. New urbanism is the idea that people will be happier if they live within walking distance of shops, of coffee shops, of stores of transit stops, maybe even within walking distance of work that people will be healthier if they're within walking distance. The way to do that is to build a lot more apartments because that's the way to get the density you need to get people living within walking distance. And so new urbanism effectively supported the urban planners who are trying to have urban growth boundaries around cities and densify the cities and increase the apartments. And if you look at the history of new urbanism, it basically came in the 1990s from a group of architects and planners who read a book that was published in about 1960 called The Death and Life of Great American Cities.
The book was written by an architecture critic at the time named Jane Jacobs. She lived in Greenwich Village, New York City at the time, the urban planning profession believed that high density apartments were bad. Most of the big cities like New York and Chicago and Boston had a bunch of apartments that had been built before the turn of the 20th century. They were like four and five and six stories tall. They didn't have any elevators. You had to climb up all these staircases if you lived on an upper floor to get to your apartment. At the time they were built, elevators had just been invented or they hadn't even been invented yet. High speed electric elevators dated to 1891. So a lot of these were built before the elevators. They were built for people who couldn't afford to ride a street car to work. And so you had blocks of apartments that had like 5,000 people living per block, and they were within walking distance of blocks of factories that had like 3000, 4,000 people per block of factories.
So people would walk, from the apartment for the factory. Well, after the turn of the 20th century, we got Henry Ford developed the moving assembly line for automobiles, and he made automobiles so cheap that everybody who was living in those apartments could afford to buy them. And the moving assembly line required so much land that all the factories moved out of downtowns into the suburbs. So the jobs moved to the suburbs, the people who bought cars that a lot of them moved to the suburbs, they could live in single family home instead of apartments. And after World War ii, we could see those apartments were not very desirable. And so in 1949, Congress passed a law that gave the cities money for urban renewal that was to be used to clear these apartments out and replaced them with something else. Well, the cities didn't want to replace 'em with single family homes because they didn't think they'd get as much tax revenue for the single family homes.
So for the most part, the cities were replacing them with high rise apartments with elevators. In the 1930s, there was a crazy architect from Switzerland who called himself Le Corbusier , which I think means the crow, and he thought that everybody should live in high rise apartment. I don't know why he thought that, because he himself never lived in a high rise apartment. He lived in low-rise, but he thought cities should build highrise apartments. So the urban planning fad of the 1950s was to build high-rise apartments, not just in American cities, but all over the world. You go to South Korea and the cities, all of them have high rise apartments. You go to Japan, you go to China, you go to Russia, you go to Paris, you go to cities everywhere you find all these high-rise apartments. They were all inspired by this kooky architect named Lake Buer who thought people should live in a way that he himself didn't want to live.
So here comes Jane Jacobs. They want to tear down her apartment building and put in a high-rise, and she says, urban planners don't understand how cities work. Well, she was right about that. Urban planners don't understand how cities, but then she went on to say something that was totally wrong, which was that she, Jane Jacobs understood how cities work, and the way she described an ideal city was you had five story apartment building and with all this density, the ground floor would be shops and people would entertain their guests out on the street. She didn't say this apartments were so small, there was no room for entertaining guests. So you'd entertain the guests out on the streets, so you'd have people playing out on the streets, they'd be barbecuing out on the streets, they'd be shopping out on the streets because the shops are out on the streets, so there wouldn't be any crime because everybody would be able to see everything that was going on because they'd all be down on the streets all the time.
You'd have these lively streets, it'd be so exciting to live in them. It'd be a wonderful place to live. And that's what a real city was like. She didn't understand that what she was describing was an artifact from the 1880s that people were moving out of as rapidly as they could and that, despite her claims, they did have high crime rate. The people didn't want to live in buildings, so they had to climb up to five stories, four, four or five stories on stairs to get to their apartments that they're moving out. She herself didn't live in a five story building. She lived in a three story building. I don't know if she lived on the second floor or the third floor. I suspect her apartment was probably on both floors because she was welted due. Her husband had a good job, she got a good job.
They lived in this three story building. There was a shop on the ground floor and they had to walk up, I think one floor to get to the main part of their apartment. So she didn't understand what it was like having to walk up three, four, and five flights of stairs to get to apartments on the fourth, fifth, and sixth floors. Doubly ironic, in 1968, her son decides to dodge the draft because he didn't believe in the war in Vietnam. So he moved to Canada. She decided to move to Canada with him, and she made so much money selling her book, the Death and Life of Great American Cities that she bought a single family home in Canada. She didn't live in a mid-rise apartment, and she moved to a single family home. And yet the urban planners who were young in the 1960s and becoming dominant in the 1990s who had read her book said, yes, we were wrong to try to force people to live in high rise apartments.
We should instead try to force people to live in five story apartments like the apartments that she described in the Death and Life of Great American Cities, like the apartments in Greenwich Village. So instead of saying, alright, let's build some of these five story apartments in the inner cities in Portland and Denver and Seattle, they said, let's build these five story apartments everywhere. Let's build them in the suburbs. Let's build them in rural areas. Let's build 'em everywhere. All urbanites should live in these five story apartment buildings. And so we're seeing them spring up all over the place. Most of them are subsidized because as I say, 80% of Americans want to live in single family homes, not in apartments.
We even had an urban planner write a paper that was very popular in the urban planning profession that said by the year 2025, and he wrote this in about 2002 or something. By the year 2025, people aren't going to want to live in single family homes anymore, and we're going to have a surplus of 22 million single family homes in the suburbs. The suburbs are going to turn into slums because everybody living in those suburbs are going to have moved into apartments in downtown. And so what urban planners should do today is get ahead of the situation by getting their cities to build more apartments, building more apartments in the suburbs, replace these icky single family homes that people won't want to live in so that we won't have a shortage of apartments when people want them. Well, of course, we're two years away from 2025. We have people moving away from cities as fast as they can before the pandemic where there were polls that showed that 40% of people who were living in dense cities wanted to move to suburbs or rural areas. And we had the same polls showed that more people wanted to live in suburbs that actually lived in them, and that was in 2018. And then the pandemic comes along and people just flee these dense cities, the populations of San Francisco and New York and others, Portland and Seattle, they're all declining and the populations of their suburbs, some cases are growing the populations of small towns. Boise, Idaho is the fastest growing city in the country.
The guy was just totally wrong. And yet we have suffered for two decades under urban planners who have tried to force these ideas on cities by subsidizing, by taxing people, and then subsidizing these high density apartments that people don't really want to live in.
Leafbox:
Randal, talking about the pandemic, how has that changed or affected your outlook on urban planning or on where people want to live? Or do you have the same critiques of the subsidies of suburban living or
Randal O'Toole:
All the pandemic has done is reinforced the ideas I already had. A pandemic doesn't really change things. What it does is it reinforces trends that are already happening. We already had a trend where people were buying cars and stopping the use of transit. Transit ridership declined every year from 2014 to 2018. It recovered slightly in 2019, but not much. Most cities still declined. About 45% of our transit takes place in New York City. And what happened was it grew in New York City in 2019. It's still declined almost everywhere else, but the growth in New York City overcame the decline everywhere else, but basically people were still buying cars. Gas prices dropped in 2014 and that just killed transit everywhere except New York City.
And then we have the trend to living in suburbs. We have the trend of wanting to live in single family homes as soon as people could afford to do so. They would buy a car and then they could live out in the suburbs where they didn't have to be in a lot of congestion or they didn't have to deal with crime or they didn't have to deal with pollution and things like that. And all the pandemic did is it reinforced all those things before the pandemic. You might've thought everybody who wanted to move to the suburbs had already done, but no, it turns out a lot more people wanted to move to the suburbs, but by the pandemic allowed more people to work at home and that led more people to say, okay, now I can move to the suburbs. Or before I couldn't because I was required to work in an office that was too far away from the place I wanted to live in the suburbs. So we now have people who maybe work in an office one day a week, but live a hundred miles away from that office and instead of driving 20 miles five days a week, they're driving a hundred miles one day a week each way and living far, far away from the density that urban planners had made for them.
The pandemic didn't change my views, it just reinforced them.
Leafbox:
What is your solution for the urban cores that are the skyscrapers of New York and the developers that built up that infrastructure? What are they supposed to do with these remote work is a challenge for 'em?
Randal O'Toole:
I think the government shouldn't do anything. I think the developers are going to have to figure it out for themselves. The owners are going to have to figure out for themselves what to do with those offices. Solution number one is to find lower valued tenants. They have what they call Class A offices and class B offices and class A offices attract companies like Chase Manhattan and Wells Fargo and Class B attracts lower rung companies. Then you have Class C that attracts nonprofit groups and flea markets and antique stores and things like that. So the owners of these office buildings are going to have to accept a lower class of tenants. Now you hear proposals to convert office buildings to apartments, and I think the Biden administration just approved a bill that's going to offer money to developers to convert office buildings to apartments. The problem is you look at the way plumbing is set up in an apartment building, every single apartment has to have plumbing for kitchen and bathrooms.
And you look at the way plumbing is set up in an office building, they put the plumbing in this core of the building where the restrooms are and the outer reach of the building have no plumbing at all. So it's going to be very expensive to change office buildings into apartment buildings. And really it's cheaper to build single family homes than it is to build apartments, and it's probably cheaper to build single family homes than it is to convert offices to apartment buildings. If you didn't have urban growth boundaries around cities, you're not going to convert offices to apartments because people aren't going to be willing to pay that extra cost of living in an apartment. If you live in a place that does have urban growth boundaries, you've driven up the cost of single family homes to be two to five times greater than it ought to be, then maybe you'll be able to justify converting offices to apartments economically justify. But that's only because you've distorted the housing market totally rid of those distortions.
Leafbox:
Like you said, it's still the triangle, the iron triangle, because the developers are getting subsidies for their losses instead of just taking the loss and finding Class C tenants.
Randal O'Toole:
Well, that's going to happen in some places, but even with the subsidies, I don't think you're going to see a lot of apartment conversions in Houston or Dallas or Atlanta or Omaha or Raleigh, places where you don't have urban growth boundaries. And so housing is still pretty affordable. Single family housing is still pretty affordable. The new urbanists like to ask people, would you rather live in an apartment where you're within walking distance of coffee shops and grocery stores and your work? Or would you rather live in a single family home or you have to drive everywhere you go? Everywhere you go. And a lot of people will say the apartment, but if you ask a question honestly, you'd say, would you rather live in a 1000 square foot apartment that costs $400,000 that's within walking distance of a limited selection, high priced grocery store and a coffee shop?
Or would you rather live in a 2000 square foot single family home on a large lot that's with an easy driving distance of multiple grocery stores that are competing hard for your business, both on and on having a wide selection of goods to sell you. And there's not much congestion because you live in a low density area. Well, you asked a question that way. You mentioned that your 2000 square foot house only costs $200,000, whereas to 1000 square foot apartment costs $400,000, even without the cost, you're going to find a lot more people saying they want the single family home. And when you add in the cost, the preference for single family homes just zoomed upward. So in Houston, you're not going to see a lot of conversions. You'll probably see a bunch of conversions in San Francisco, but do people really want to live that way? I think people are being forced to live that way, and I don't like the fact that planners are getting away with forcing people to live in ways they don't want to live. What
Leafbox:
Are your thoughts? I think you're a proponent of autonomous vehicles as an alternative to public infrastructure and public transport. Could you expand on that?
Randal O'Toole:
Well, I'm not so much a proponent, as I see that's the wave of the future. So we see cities like Seattle spending gobs of money. I mean, Seattle's got spending like 90 billion on light rail when autonomous vehicles, once they're applied to Seattle are going to be just destroy light rail as a mode of transportation. Who's going to want to ride light rail when you're going to be susceptible to diseases that you can catch from other people on the train? There's going to be crime on the train, and it only goes when the rail is scheduled, not when you want to go, and it only goes where that we've spent billions of dollars building the rail lines and not where you want to go. Whereas you could call up an autonomous vehicle, have it come to your door, take you to your door, and it's going to cost you probably not much more, maybe even less than when you count all the subsidies.
It's certainly going to cost less than the light rail. So it's going to happen. I mean, it's happened in San Francisco. Waymo has just announced that they're serving the entire Phoenix metropolitan area now just 550 square miles. Cruise is shut down in San Francisco temporarily in response to calls because there was one accident. But the data show that even as primitive as it is today, we've the autonomous vehicles that have traveled millions and millions of miles have only had about one fifth as many accidents per million miles. They travel as human-driven vehicles. The pressure is coming from the taxi drivers, the truck drivers, the people whose jobs are going to be lost when they're replaced by autonomous vehicle, and they're the ones who are putting pressure in California to try kill autonomous vehicles in San Francisco. But it's going to happen. And since it is going to happen, we shouldn't be spending money on these 19th century forms of rail transportation that are slow and expensive and don't go where people want to go.
Leafbox:
Talking about international frameworks, you travel, you went to Switzerland and you're going to Canada and you're a fan of rail. Where can Americans learn? Who's doing planning, right? Who's letting, is it Singapore, is it Tokyo? Where's the most ideal framework for development in your opinion, meeting the needs of this civilian, the government, and just where do you find that balance?
Randal O'Toole:
Houston. Houston is the closest I can come to the ideal. Houston has no zoning. Texas counties are not allowed to zone. And so Houston is surrounded by lots, some suburban cities that are incorporated. The biggest one is Pasadena. They don't have any zoning. Other Incorporated cities around Houston do have zoning, but what happens is the developments take place in unincorporated areas. The developers build houses that people want. They build homes for the market. They do build some multifamily, but they build mostly single family. And then these developed areas then get annexed into the suburbs and the suburbs then sometimes apply zoning. Sugar land is one example of that. Almost all of sugar land was built in unincorporated areas and then annexed into the city. Even the city hall was built when it was unincorporated, and then they annexed it into the incorporated area. So the zoning only came after it was built.
And so the developers were able to build the kind of houses that people wanted. And one of the things that developers found is that if you're going to buy a single family home, you want to have some assurance that nobody's going to put in a gravel pit or a meat packing factory or a brick factory or something like that right next door to you. And so the developers did something that was like zoning. They put protective covenants on the properties. They said All the homes in this neighborhood have to be a certain size. All the homes in this neighborhood have to be a certain size or whatever, and the lots have to be a certain size and so on. And what happens is when you do that, if you're a developer, you don't get more money from your lots, but they sell a lot faster.
It doesn't increase the cost. There's no cost of putting these covenants on, but they sell a lot faster. These covenants are actually developed decades before zoning, and they were so successful that zoning was invented by cities to apply to existing single family neighborhoods to increase home ownership. Home ownership rates went from about 15% in cities in 1890 to over 50% by 1960, because people had the assurance that if they bought a home, it wasn't going to be degraded in use because the next door neighbor decided to put in something that was incompatible, whether it was zoning or protective covenants. So Houston has protective covenants in all these suburban developments, and these covenants are flexible. If a developer says, look, your neighborhood has these covenants in and they're incompatible with the development I want to put in, but I think my development will sell really well, I'll pay you to change your covenants.
And some neighborhoods have agreed to do that so that the developers can put in something that they think is more marketable than the kind of housing that's in that neighborhood and people's taste change. So these kinds of things do happen over time. Now, another thing that's happened is that some of the suburban counties around Houston have toll road authorities, and they are funded exclusively out of their tolls. They build roads rather economically. They build freeways that are cost about $5 million a lane mile, and they build these freeways to get from the suburban communities that are being built by developers who are using protective covenants to get from these suburban neighborhoods to downtown Houston. So Fort Bend County, for example, has several freeways that is built exclusively with toll roads that are paid for solely out of tolls. They don't get any gas taxes, they don't get any tax dollars, and I consider these to be very successful.
Now nobody is perfect. Houston. After voting down light rail a couple of times, they managed to persuade them that voters that if they built light rail, it would relieve congestion. And so they ended up building some light rail lines That to me, have been total disasters. Transit ridership in Houston was growing before they started building a light rail is now lower than it was in the last couple of years before light rail opened. Because they spent so much money on the light rail, they ended up cutting back on their bus service and you lost more bus riders than you gained rail riders. That's a pattern we've seen in Los Angeles and St. Louis and Sacramento and cities all over the country that you build rail and you lose riders because you end up having fewer bus riders than you gain rail riders. But overall, despite that quirk, the light rail problem in Houston, I say Houston is the place you should go to if you want to find out how cities could work without a lot of government plans
Leafbox:
As an environmentalist, you have a model called Incentive-based conservation. Could you just summarize that for people and how you think market reactions can help secure environmental rights and whatnot?
Randal O'Toole:
Well, I developed those ideas back when I was working on forest issues and the Forest Service and other agencies were doing a lot of clearcutting that clear cutting damaged wildlife habitat. It reduced recreation values because recreationists to the most valuable recreation was recreation in areas that were wild and where you had some solitude from other people and from big cities and from roads and things like that. And so the forest service is eagerly building roads, cutting down trees, damaging watersheds, damaging fisheries, damaging wildlife habitats. The best fisheries in Oregon, for example, are an area that have no roads, that have had no logging, the best salmon fisheries. So I looked at after years of looking at Forest service data, something hit me one day, and that was that the reason why the Forest Service was doing this is because Congress had inadvertently designed their budget to reward the Forest Service for losing money on environmentally destructive activities and to literally penalize the forest Service for either making money or doing environmentally benign activities, activities that were not bad for the environment.
And certainly they didn't reward them for doing environmentally good activities. And so the Forest Service was merely following its incentive. I wrote a whole book about this. It was called Reforming the Forest Service. It came out in 1988. In 1989, the Forest Service sold 11 billion Ford feet of timber started declining in 1990. By 2001, it had fallen to one and a half billion board feet of timber. It had fallen by 85%. And people in the Forest Service came to me and said, we read your book and we thought you were accusing us of being corrupt. And then this guy said, the guy told me, I suddenly realized last week I had signed off on a timber sale so I could get a bigger budget. And they stopped doing that. They stopped saying, they said, we don't want to be motivated by our budget to do these bad things anymore.
And so they stop these environmentally destructive timber sale. I didn't think that was going to happen. I thought we would have to change their incentives. So I talked about incentive-based conservation. I said, we should charge recreation fees. We should charge fees, bigger fees for fishing and hunting. Right now, when you fish and hunt, technically under federal law or under US law, the animals you fish and hunt are owned by the states. But if you, on national forest, the land you're hunting on is owned by the federal government. So right now you pay a hunting fee to the state, but you don't pay anything to the federal government. I said, you should also have to pay a fee to the federal government to hunt on federal land or fish on federal land. If you did that, I pointed out then private landowners would also be able to charge fees, and you'd see both federal and private landowners modifying their activities so that they would enhance wildlife habitat, enhance fisheries, and enhance recreation opportunities.
We'd have more recreation, not less if we were willing to pay fees. And so my solution to the forest problems was to charge recreation fees to balance the fees from timber cutting and grazing and mining. And the forest services own numbers showed that recreation was worth more than all the other activities combined. So they would make a pretty good balance. I got quite a few environmentalists supporting this. But then in the mid 1990s, the environmental movement kind of got taken over by people who believed in top down planning, they believed that the president should make all the decisions for every single timber sale. And if a timber sale didn't meet their approval, they literally went to the president of the United States and got him to call up the district, not him, but one of his age, to call up the district ranger and say, don't do that timber sale. It drove the Forest Service bureaucracy nuts because these people in the administration in the White House were overruling 'em. And so incentive-based conservation didn't get very far. Now we're seeing some people in the environmental movement going back and recognizing that this top down planning doesn't work very well, and they're beginning to look at these ideas again.
Leafbox:
Randal, as you had that interview with the Grassroots Initiative here in Hawaii discussing housing policy, what's your relationship with them? And my other question is, do you have an opinion on vacancy taxes for Hawaii or other places?
Randal O'Toole:
Alright, well, you're talking about the Grassroot Institute, not plural, but Grassroot Institute, and they're a state-based think tank in Hawaii. And I work with state-based think tanks all over the country. Recently, I've done work for state-based think tanks in North Carolina, Arizona, Oregon, Colorado, a lot of different states and Hawaii. And some of them have hired me to do some work. Some of them just asked me to comment in Zoom meetings or in podcasts or radio interviews or whatever. But the Grassroots Institute is one of a great network state-based think tanks that I'm happy to be working with and for as much as I can. Even when I worked for the Cato Institute, which is a national think tank in Washington dc, I really saw my job as being a liaison from Cato to these state-based think tanks because most people in Cato working on national or international issues, I was one of the few in Cato who was working on local issues like housing or transportation issues. And so I've always had a good relationship with the Grassroot Institute. The director and their staff are great people and they do good work on housing and a lot of other issues in Hawaii.
Leafbox:
And then what are your thoughts? I mean, you advocated for a voucher model, just to summarize that for meeting affordable housing and then if you have any thoughts on vacancy taxes. Many people want to apply vacancy tax in Hawaii for empty units or empty second homes or I'm just curious if you've studied that at all.
Randal O'Toole:
Well, Hawaii was the first state in the country to try to restrict the development of single family homes. And it's such an irony because in the 1950s, most of the land in Hawaii was owned by the five companies, Dole and so on, and the bishop estate. And if you wanted to own your own home in Hawaii, often you couldn't find land to own it on something like 99% of the land was owned by one of these six entities. So you would have to lease land from one of these entities and build your home on it. And the five companies were agricultural companies and they weren't interested in leasing land for homes. They wanted to grow pineapple and sugarcane and other crops on their land. And so you had this huge housing crisis in Hawaii in the late 1950s. And at the time, in the early 1950s, Hawaii's legislature, territorial legislature was run by Republicans and they were very sympathetic to the five companies, and they weren't sympathetic to the people who needed housing.
Well, the late 1950s, the Democrats took over and they took over on a promise of land reform. They promised that they would force the five companies and the bishop estate perhaps to sell some of their land to use for housing so that people could find affordable housing. Well, the Democrats won and in 1961 they passed their land reform cap package and it did exactly the opposite of what they promised. Instead of requiring the companies to sell the land, they declared all the rural land in the state, most of which was owned by these five companies. They declared that land off limits to developments. They said the only land you could develop was urban land. This story is told by a great book called Land and Power in Hawaii. I recommended to all your listeners if they're from Hawaii. And what the Democrats discovered was that as legislators, they could make exceptions for themselves.
And so if you're a developer and you wanted to develop some land, you went to a state legislator and you made that legislator a partner in your development, the partner would then get the state to override the rules that had been passed by the state in response to the law you passed so that you could have your land developed or your developer partners land development developed and you'd make all this money. And so it became quite a corrupt system, and that's a system that governs Hawaii. To this day, only about 14% of the land in Hawaii has been developed. There's lots of land even in Oahu. Most of the land is still undeveloped. It's rural land that could be developed. And the real irony is supposedly the 1961 law that reserved all these rural areas where supposed to protect the agricultural industry, and yet the farm industry has practically died in Hawaii.
Why? Because the farmers can't afford to hire farm laborers and pay them enough money for those laborers to find housing and still produce pineapple and sugarcane and other produce that's competitive with farms in Costa Rica and Fuji and other places that haven't restricted housing. And so we've destroyed more than 80% of the farm industry in Hawaii just since 1982. It's been 80%. So since 1961, it's been more than 80%. In order to preserve the farmlands, we had to destroy the farms. That to me is a very sad commentary on what's happened in housing. Now, since housing has gotten expensive, we've come up with all these wacko ideas to make housing that's affordable. One wacko idea is build high density housing, build more apartments. Well, it turns out apartments cost twice as much per square foot to build as single family homes, maybe more than twice as much if it's really tall, partly because you have to put in elevators.
If you're building taller than two or three stores, you have to put in elevators. They're really expensive, more steel, more concrete. It just makes housing a lot more expensive. So you're not building affordable housing when you build apartments. And yet we have all these subsidies that we're throwing at developers that are inefficiently building expensive housing, but it's subsidized housing. And so then they can rent it at lower rates. Then we come up with crazy ideas like, oh, Airbnb is using up all the housing. Well, if we didn't have these restrictions on housing, we could build more housing. There'd be enough housing for Airbnb, there'd be enough housing for vacation homes, and there'd be enough housing for year-round residents. It's only because of the land use law that restrict housing, restrict new development that's made housing expensive. So the number one priority of anybody who cares about affordable housing should be to abolish the state land use laws, not just modify them to increase the amount of urban land, but totally abolish them. We'd see a lot more development on Oahu. We'd see a tiny bit more development on the other islands. Not much. Most of the land that's rural and the other islands would stay rural. At least half the land on Oahu that's rural would stay rural. Probably half of Oahu would stay rural, but there'd be a lot more development and housing would get to be a lot more important.
Leafbox:
And then what are your thoughts on the vacancy taxes that people want to implement?
Randal O'Toole:
Again, you're attacking the wrong problem. You're attacking a symptom, not the real problem. The problem is the land use law. And when you attack symptoms, you're not solving problems. It's like building affordable housing. Affordable housing is subsidized housing for low income people. Housing affordability, afford is a measure of how much housing costs for everybody. Housing shouldn't cost more than 30% of your income, but housing in Hawaii especially Oahu, is costing a lot of people 50% or more of their income. So that means instead of fixing the problem, we're spending more and more money tax dollars subsidizing affordable housing because so many more people are spending more than 30% of their incomes on housing.
Stop dealing with the symptom and start dealing with the problems. If you want to solve the problems, if all you want to do is look good, if you're a politician and you want to look good, then you deal with symptoms. And that's one of the problems with our economy is we've made governments so big, we've made the economy so complicated that people don't realize that the solutions that politicians come up with are only dealing with symptoms because it's easier for them to deal with the symptoms than it is to deal with the problems themselves. So many interest groups that benefit from creating problems. One of the beneficiaries from creating the housing affordability crisis are the developers who make money from the subsidy. So we've got this huge affordable housing industrial complex that gets money from taxpayers to build expensive housing that they then rent out at subsidized rates. And the developers make contributions to the politicians who appropriate the money for these funds. And Hawaii probably has a dozen different affordable housing funds. I know Portland has a dozen different affordable housing funds that are federal, state, and local funds that are all used to subsidize these developments that are really not affordable. The developers are making money from them, and a few people are getting to live in cheaper housing because of them.
Leafbox:
And then Randal, my last question is what are you optimistic about right now? You have a lot of critiques of government and incentives, but I'm curious what you're optimistic about.
Randal O'Toole:
It's hard to be optimistic today when you live in a country where one party thinks that they have unlimited purse strings and they can spend as much as they want on anything they want. And the other party is mainly oriented towards a socially conservative agenda that focuses on restricting people's personal rights as much as they can. And the middle of the road, which is let's have freedom of personal rights, and let's also have economic freedom where we're not taxing people to death and not restricting how people can use land and so on and so forth. That to me is a middle of the road position, and yet people aren't talking about that anymore. They used to be, if I'm optimistic about anything, it's maybe that the leader of one party will get convicted and the leader of the other party will become so senile that he won't run for office anymore.
Leafbox:
And then Randal, how can people find you? What's the best way for people who want more? Your policy briefs are very insightfulâŠ
Randal O'Toole:
Well, my blog is called the Antiplanner. Just Google Antiplanner or use DuckDuckGo or whatever your preference is to find the Antiplanner. I'm the first thing on the list. Technically it's ti.org. TI is the Thoreau Institute I started many years ago, Henry David Thoreau believed in wildness is the preservation of the world, and that government is best. It governs lease. So to me, Thoreau is the ideal combination of environmental and small government values. And so ti.org is my organization.
Leafbox:
Great. Randal, I'll give you the last word. Anything else you wanted to share?
Randal O'Toole:
Well, you mentioned the policy briefs, if you go to ti.org/Antiplanner, I post almost every weekday. But if you go up to the upper right hand corner, it says special features and one of them is policy briefs. I've got 150 policy briefs. They're average about four pages long on all kinds of different issues, wildfire housing, transit, highways, and so on and so forth. You also find the education of an iconoclast, which is my memoirs of 50 years of work in these fields. And then you can also find up on the menus above. There's Cato Institute, Thoreau Institute, an American Dream Coalition. I've written papers for all these organizations. I think I've written five or six papers for the Thoreau Institute just this year alone. So you can see all my latest papers. Those papers tend to be about 10,000 words long, whereas the policy briefs are only a couple thousand words long and are a good introduction to all these issues. There's at least one policy brief on the Honolulu rail, by the way.
Leafbox:
Great. Well, Randal, I really appreciate your time notes as well. Great. Thank you.
Learn more about @ ti.org/antiplanner
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Robert Jefferson is an American broadcast news anchor and Air Force veteran, professor of journalism and has had the majority of his career working in Japan.
Jefferson shares an overview of his career and biography, while offering his views on the decline of journalism and the West. He offers advice for those considering life abroad and emphasizes the importance of staying curious, questioning authority, and learning history to navigate the current media landscape. Jefferson also shares his personal health journey and the benefits of gardening and maintaining a healthy lifestyle in this insightful interview.
Connect with The Kamakura Gardener
Support The Kamakura Gardener : patreon.com/TheKamakuraGardener
Subject Time Stamps:
* (01:26) The Mid-Atlantic Broadcast Accent and Biography
* (03:25) The Dark Side of Paradise
* (07:25) Relationship to Social Media
* (09:25) Work at NHK World TVâŠ
* (15:58) An Interest in the Foreign
* (20:24) Moving to Japan
* (27:19) A Decline in Japanese Media
* (34:48) Being a Free Man in Japan
* (45:07) The Kamakura Gardener / Catharsis
* (57:05) Teaching at Temple University
* (1:02) Critique of being labeled a conspiracy theorist and the importance of seeking truth
* (1:09) Finding Opportunities Abroad
* (1:15) Closure and Where to Connect
Leafbox:
Today I had the pleasure of speaking and learning from Robert Jefferson. Robert is an American 47 year broadcast news anchor, and Air Force veteran. He's a professor of journalism and has had the majority of his career working in Japan. Aside from his broadcast duties, he has a smaller, intimate project known as the Kamakura Gardener. Today we explore his biography, his disenchantment with corporate media, truth finding and sense-making, and his eventual catharsis in finding local content, connecting community to the gardens and surroundings of Kamakura Japan. He shares his experience finding freedom in Japan and offers an analysis of the decline of journalism and of the West. We talk about his brief stint in Hawaii and the mainland, and offer an option for those considering life abroad and paths for finding opportunity. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy. That's one of my first questions. I think my mom, she introduced me to your videos and I think she fell in love with your voice. You definitely have a beautiful broadcaster voice. Where did you actually grow up in the States?
Robert Jefferson:
I was born in Philadelphia, but I grew up in Montgomery County, which is about an hour north of Philadelphia. And I have what's called a Mid-Atlantic Broadcast accent. I was in broadcasting in the military. That was my job information broadcast specialist. I was a TV news announcer in the Air Force. I was lucky. I insisted. I had an FCC license when I joined. I had been studying up to that point, actually. They tried to make me an inventory management specialist, and I said, hell no. Hell no. And I prevailed, and it didn't take long, just a week or so, and I was sent to a technical school, the Defense Information School of Journalism Public Affairs. I know Honolulu well, I knew Honolulu very well back in the mid eighties for KHVH News Radio 99 and KGU Talk Radio 76. The voice of "Hawaii".
Leafbox:
Well, you actually had the perfect Hawaii accent there. That was pretty well done.
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah, most people have no clue what the W is a âVâ sound.
Leafbox:
It's not America and it's not Japan. It's in between both. But here in Hawaii, I think we have, there's a strong sense of Aina, of place, of localism, of culture, of being connected to each other. People have
Robert Jefferson:
The benefit of true diversity. You have the Japanese, the Chinese, the Portuguese, and the Polynesians, and then all of the other imports from around the world. So yeah, it's truly diverse. And that's not some just trite word. It truly is. Yeah. And then the local traditions, the first time I was ever called nigger was in Hawaii, in Honolulu. I was walking home one night from a club or somewhere. I was living in Lower Manoa, and I was walking up the hill from Honolulu. And these young, they were Asian kids, they were drunk or something, and they lean out the window, Hey nigger. That was the first and only time. I never felt any racial discrimination or antipathy or anything like that while I was there. And I was like, well, what the hell was that all about?
Leafbox:
What year was this in?
Robert Jefferson:
85, 86. But yeah, that was the only time. And so I would never let that taint my view or my experience in Hawaii. I mean, I was, it's this young, skinny black kid basically who got hired at two of the best radio stations in town. And then ABC News hired me to come back to, I left Japan to go to Hawaii, and then ABC News hired me to come back. So I'm not sure what that was all about, but that was the only time most people were very kind and gracious.
Leafbox:
So how long were you in Hawaii for?
Robert Jefferson:
About two years. And I meant to do this. I had to go back. When you get older, you kind of forget certain things, especially when it was four decades ago, a year and a half to two years that I was there. And I was able to, actually, I think I may have it, if you give me just a quick second here. There was a recreation of a voyage, a Polynesian voyage, the Hokulea, and I was there when they arrived at the beach, sort of like a spiritual leader, Sam Kaâai. He was there, and yeah, I'll never forget that. They were blowing a co shell and they were doing all kinds of Hawaiian prayers and whatnot. It was absolutely beautiful.
Leafbox:
I didn't know anything about this. And your biographies kind of limited online a lot about your
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah, I used to be on LinkedIn and all that. I erased it all. I got rid of it all. I don't trust LinkedIn, and I don't mind people knowing about me. But yeah, I would just prefer to have control over it.
Leafbox:
I apologize about these people in, but
Robert Jefferson:
Oh, no, no, no, no. You don't have to apologize at all. You have to apologize.
Leafbox:
Well, I mean, the good thing is you saw some of the darkness in Paradise as well, that there's very complex class issues.
Robert Jefferson:
When I was in Lower Manoa, I lived at, it was a house share, actually an old converted garage share. I was sharing with two other guys. One was Filipino American and the other one was from Detroit, a black American. And the owners were Chinese, and they were really sweet, very nice. The old lady, she used to get, she realized how poor we were. So she used to give us our lunches or dinner boxes, whatever. And she would always say "Sek Fan" , she couldn't speak much English. Sek Fan" is Cantonese for Have you Eaten? Which means How are you? But basically, it literally means have you eaten Shan Shan? And yeah, she's very sweet. Her sons were very nice, very nice. So yeah, I mean, I never had any racial issues except for that one night. Luckily it was just that one night. Yeah, you're right. It's good that I did experience a little darkness in paradise
Leafbox:
Talking about darkness. I just was wondering what your concern a few times in the interview with the Black Experience guy, you talked about how you removed your Facebook account and how you just said that you deleted your LinkedIn
Robert Jefferson:
Pretty much at the same time. Yeah, that was like 2016. I had just gotten fed up with big media.
Leafbox:
Well, that's one of my first questions is that you were in big media. Yeah. What shifted that media disenchantment or disgust?
Robert Jefferson:
Well, it was what Facebook and Zuckerberg were doing, prying into people's private affairs, restricting people from doing this, that and the other. I could see it coming, what we have now, the blacklisting, the shadow banning the outright banning of people. I could see that coming. And I said, I don't want to be any part of this. That's why I did sign up for Twitter years ago. I tried to use it a couple of times, and I was like, what the hell is this for? I couldn't really see the purpose. And it turns out it's just a place for people to go and show off or b***h and complain about each other. I don't want to be a part of that. It's something that Americans don't learn in school, and that is Jacobinism, bolshevism, Communism, Marxism. It is exactly what's happening in the United States now.
It's being taken over. You go back and look at the French Revolution, the Jacobins, the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, how they destroyed Russia, what happened in Germany during World War ii, the Nazism and all that. And they're doing it here now. Well, here, they're doing it in the United States now, and most people aren't taught about this stuff. They have no clue. They have no clue what's happening, and you can see it. For example, what's his name? The former FBI Director McCabe back in the seventies when he was in college and just getting out of college, he was identified Marxist, a communist. He was a member of the Communist Party, Brenner, the former CIA director, communist.
And the media won't say anything about them. You try to bring it up and they'll deny it. But I mean, their quotes are out there. They don't deny the quotes. And now these people are running government. I mean, the whole Congress just pisses me off. I mean, how do you have somebody making 170,000 between $170,000 and $200,000 a year owning million dollar mansions? What's Maxine Waters in California? She owns a four and a half million dollar house on a $170,000 salary. That's impossible. Nancy Pelosi is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Her husband is worth more.
Leafbox:
Robert, why don't we go back one second, and just for people who don't know about your career and who you are, just a one minute biography for people.
Robert Jefferson:
Currently, I am a broadcast journalist. I work for Japan's public Broadcaster, NHK, at which I am a news writer and an announcer. I worked for two sections of NHK , NHK World tv, and I also work for the domestic service channel one as an announcer. We have what's called here, bilingual news. And the evening news is translated by a huge staff of translators and simultaneous interpreters, and I'm one of the on-Air English language announcers. So on a sub-channel, sub audio channel, how you can tune into either Japanese or English or both. You can split the channels. NHK world TV is internet based. It's for a foreign audience. It's not allowed to be broadcast in Japan, sort of like Voice of America used to be banned from broadcasting in the United States until Barack Obama came along. It was illegal for the United States government to propagandize its citizens, and the Voice of America is considered to be propaganda.
And Barack Obama changed that to allow them to broadcast propaganda to American citizens. But anyway, I digress. So yeah, I've been in broadcasting as a professional. It'd be 50 years in 2026, actually started learning broadcasting in 1974. So next year will be my 50th anniversary as a novice, at least. I started in Philadelphia. I started, I heard it at W-D-A-S-A-M at FM in Philadelphia, if you can see that. I think it says 1977. I actually started in 1976, and I also worked at WRTI in Philadelphia, Temple University's radio station. And that was back in the late mid seventies. And then in 2003, when I went back to the States, I worked at WRTI, Temple University's radio station for a short while, while I was still in Philadelphia. Sorry to be jumping around like this, but right now, yes, I work for NHK right now. I was in high school.
I started studying television production in high school in 1974 as a freshman. And then in 1976, I went to work as an intern, a production assistant at WDAS AM and FM in Philadelphia. People may remember Ed Bradley. He was with 60 Minutes. He got his start at, I don't know, maybe not his start, but he did work at WDAS in Philadelphia for a short time. And I went on and joined. I was enrolled at Temple University after high school in 1978, and I only spent one semester there because I was just sick and tired of sitting in classrooms after having spent 12 years in grade school and already had experience. I even had a federal communications commission's license, a third class radio telephone operators permit, which I still have somewhere around here, the certificate be in the business. I wanted to be, my dream was to be a foreign correspondent, which came true later.
I'll get to that. And I wanted to be a war correspondent, but there were no wars at the time because the Vietnam War had ended, had it continued, I probably would've been drafted, but it ended in 75, and I came of age, well military age in 77. So I decided to join the Air Force. A friend of mine was thinking of joining the Air Force, and he wanted me to come along and basically sit with him and hold his hand while he talked to an Air Force recruiter. And so I went along and listened to him, and after he finished his spiel with my friend Tony, he turned to me and said, well, what about you? And I said, I'm fine. I'm enrolled at Temple University. And yeah, I've been a pursue a broadcasting career. And he said, well, don't you realize that the United States military has the largest network at the time in the world?
And I said, really? Never heard of that? And he said, yeah, I'll come back and I'll bring some pamphlets and show you what we have. So he did, did come back, and there was the promise of being stationed overseas. I wanted to be a foreign correspondent. And so here I had an opportunity to travel the world and be paid for doing something in the United States military, at least that I wanted to do. And it was so enticing that I said, sure, I'll do it. I said, get away from the college classes. That would just totally boring. And to continue doing what I had already been doing for the past couple of years, four years at least. So yeah, I signed up and went to the Defense Information School of Journalism and Public Affairs. Overall, it was about a two year course and my first assignment, I was never stationed stateside. All of my assignments were overseas. My first assignment was in Southern Turkey at Interlink Air Base, just outside the southern Turkish city of Adana, just off the Mediterranean coast, just above Greece and Cyprus, close to the border with Syria and not too far from Lebanon.
Leafbox:
Where did this interest for the foreign come from? Was your family also military family, or where did you have Philadelphia? Why were you concerned with the rest of the world?
Robert Jefferson:
My family wasn't, we weren't traveling military. All of my grandfather was a jet engine mechanic in World War ii. My father was in the Korean War, but he was stationed in Germany. His younger brothers were also in the Korean War. They wanted to take advantage of the GI Bill, which they did. My father went on to study architecture at Drexel University in Philadelphia, but from a very young age, I was very curious about news. My first recollection, well, what I remember most about my childhood, the earliest recollection that I have of my childhood was November 22nd, 1963. I was three years old when John F. Kennedy was shot. And I was wondering, why are all of these adults staring at the television and crying, and why is the TV on all the time? All day long, we had this black and white TV sitting in the living room. We lived in Philadelphia at the time, and I was just fascinated.
I could still remember the cortage of Kennedy's horse-drawn coffin on top of a horse-drawn carriage going down. I guess it was Pennsylvania Avenue towards the White House or wherever. I'm pretty sure it was the White House. And ever since that, I was just curious. I would sit when my mother would have her little cocktail parties or whatever, I would sit in the other room and eavesdrop. I was just curious about what they were talking about. I was always curious about news. Back in the sixties, you had the African liberation movements and the assassinations of African leaders. The Vietnam War was in full swing. Well, after Kennedy was assassinated and Johnson came in. Then there was the moon, the space race, how the Soviets were winning the space race, the first country to put a satellite in space, the first country to put an animal in space, the first country to put a man in space, the first country to put a woman in space, the first country to put a person of African descent in space in Americas was being shown up. See, we don't learn this stuff in school, but you could fact check me. Yeah, we had had newspapers galore. We had the Philadelphia Daily Bulletin in the morning and afternoon. We had the Philadelphia Enquirer. They had two papers a day. Of course, there was no internet back then, but people actually read the newspaper and actually talked about it. It was okay to talk about things. The civil rights movement was in full swing. It was quite a heady time to be young and impressionable.
Leafbox:
Robert, did your sister share this interest in media and international, your twin sister, you have?
Robert Jefferson:
No, not at all. Not at all. And I've, she recently joined Telegram, and I sent her a little welcome message, and then I tried to send her something newsworthy and she didn't want to hear it. She even said, I don't want to be seeing things like this. I forget exactly what it was. And so I deleted it. And I've never said anything like that. I have an older brother. I have two older sisters who are also twins, and then an older brother, and we used to send each other articles and we used to talk about things. But there's been a huge divide I found in America. A lot of people have joined a team, a tribe, and they don't want to hear anything else, whether it's the cult Covidian or the staunch Democrats or the staunch Republicans, the MAGA country people or whatever, people, a lot of people just don't want to talk anymore. But back in the sixties and seventies, people talked. They argued and they went out and had a barbecue together. There wasn't this vitriol in this division. Now, and this is done on purpose to divide and rule people. This is all being done on purpose. But back to your point, yeah, my sister, she was interested in sports. I wasn't. I became the house announcer at basketball games. I did play in junior high school. I did play football, but that was about it. I never played basketball, never learned the rules, never learned the positions. It just didn't interest me. I saw brothers fighting over basketball games and whatnot, destroying each other's bicycles over, and these were brothers how they went home and solved it, I don't know. But
Leafbox:
Just moving forward a bit in time to Japan, you do the Air Force, they train you to be a journalist or announcer, and then how do you get to Japan?
Robert Jefferson:
Not only that announcer, a writer, a camera operator, a technical operator pressing all the buttons in the control room, ENG, electronic news gathering, the little mini cam on the shoulder thing, everything they taught.
Leafbox:
I mean, this might be a direct question, but you talked about propandandizing the population, being educated as a journalist or person in the Air Force seems, I'm curious how that educational experience is different than maybe how you're teaching a Temple and what the goals of that information management is.
Robert Jefferson:
Well, it is interesting. I dunno if you've seen the movie, Good Morning, Vietnam. Remember the two twins who were censors, the identical twins who were censoring, they would stand in the other room just beyond the glass, staring at the DJ or whatever, making sure they don't say anything wrong or if they're reading the news or something. That's Hollywood. There was never any such censor. We had no one censoring us. We had host nation sensitivities. Here I am in Southern Turkey during the Iran hostage crisis. No one stood over my shoulder censoring me. When I put together a newscast, it was my responsibility, and nobody told me what I couldn't say or what I couldn't say. It was just be respectful. We are in a predominantly Muslim country, Turkey, and so be respectful. And I was actually studying Islam at the time, and so I was one of the few people who could pronounce the names of the people in the news back then, the Iranian Foreign Minister or the Iranian president, the Iranian Foreign Minister.. , and the president's name was..., and I was one of the only people who could even pronounce these names.
And the Saudi Arabian, who was the OPEC oil chief, Ahmed Zaki Yamani. I was studying Arabic at the time. I was studying Turkish and Arabic, and so I could pronounce these names, but we didn't have censorship. We used the wire services, United Press International, UPI and Associated Press AP. And they had some really good broadcast wires and far different than today. They were real journalists. Then.
There may have been some slants pro this or pro that pro Europe, pro-Israel or whatever, but it wasn't as blatant as it is today. I think we were far more objective and neutral back then than what I hear today, especially on the corporate networks, the big American networks, the cable networks and whatnot. We were far more objective and neutral than what people are listening to today. And this was in the Air Force. So the news that I was broadcasting was basically pretty much the same as people heard on the radio while driving to work in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, although I was in Southern Turkey, we tried to recreate the American media atmosphere there as either as DJs or news announcers, because we had all of the same inputs that you would have at a radio and television station back in the state. The obvious slants that you see today, that CNN, for example.
Leafbox:
What about Japan? That's one of my main critiques or questions I have about how the Japanese media is managed and your analysis as an American of how that media consensus is created in Japan. If you have any opinion on that.
Robert Jefferson:
Well, it seems to me, I've noticed, I've worked in Japanese media now for 40 years. It seems to me that now there's been a huge change. Japanese media used to be more curious than they are now. They seem to follow, how should I put it, the status quo, the western status quo. Don't, for example, the war in Ukraine between Russia and Ukraine, they're calling it an unprovoked attack on Ukraine. It was not unprovoked. Hello? There was a coup d'etat instigated by the United States during the aba, the Barack Obama administration, the overthrew, a democratically elected, the first democratically elected president of Ukraine, was overthrown by a US backed coup led by the state department's, Victoria Neuland and John McCain was there, John Kerry was there, Neuland. She was there handing out cookies in Maidan Square, and now they called it an unprovoked invasion. The Ukrainians were killing their own people.
They happened to be ethnic Russians, but they were killing their own people. 14,000 of them were dying in Eastern Ukraine. The Donetsk Lugansk don't question that. To answer your question, the Japanese don't question. They just go along with whatever Reuters is saying, whatever the AP is saying, whatever the Western American corporate TV networks or cable news are saying, it is just blindly following the status quo. And years ago, they didn't do that. They're taking sides because Japan and Russia have some territorial disputes, some four northern islands that Russia invaded and took over in the closing days of World War ii. And Japan and Russia have yet to sign a peace treaty. They have diplomatic relations, but they've yet to sign a peace treaty because the Japanese were upset that the Russians won't vacate those adds and give them back. But there's a lot of untruths being told in Japanese media about what's going on, that the Ukrainians are winning when they're obviously losing, that the Russians committing atrocities. And it's been proven that the Ukrainians military has committed far more atrocities than the Russians have, and on and on.
Leafbox:
Do you think that change in journalistic culture, where does that come from? Is that from just external pressure, the lack of, why do you think? Is that because of the decline of Japan economically, the independence that it's had? I'm just curious where you think that
Robert Jefferson:
There's a lot of them. Yeah, it is the economic decline. It's wanting to feel as though there's a feeling, in my opinion anyway. I sense that there's a feeling among the Japanese leadership that they want to be accepted. They have been accepted in the Western Bloc. That's a full fledged member of the Western Bloc, and they don't want to lose that position. But they sense it's obvious that economically Japan has fallen very far, and basically it's suicide. We had trade representatives, and I still remember some of the names, Charlene Barshefsky, the US Trade representative coming to Japan, forcing Japan to stop being successful economically, forcing their automobile companies and other industries to stop being so goddamn successful. How dare, how dare you produce such wonderful cars that everyone wants to buy, especially from the 1970s when they produced cars with great, great mileage, gasoline mileage.
And here we are watching Japan. It's already slipped from number two to number three behind China, United States. And United States is not the number one economic power anymore. And Western media, American media won't admit that, but America may have more in the way of money or wealth. But when it comes to purchasing power, there's an index called PPP, purchasing Power Parity, and then there's also manufacturing China, far outstrips the United States in manufacturing capacity and purchasing power of parity. So China is number one economically. The United States is number two. Japan is number three, but it's about to lose that spot to Germany, but then Germany is going to lose it to whoever. I mean, Germany economy has been screwed. Again, it's another example of the German economy is another example of how a company is committing suicide. All the EU is basically committing suicide, allowing the United States to blow up the Nord Stream pipeline, and it's like, whoa, we don't know who did it? Who did that? Who did? Okay, well knock it off. Joe Biden ordered that pipeline being destroyed, and we have him on tape saying that if the Russians do this, that pipeline is dead. We have Victoria Neuland saying basically the same thing. We have a Twitter message from someone in the US State Department to, I think it was the Polish leader. The job is done, and she got fired soon after that. I mean, it's all a sick game, a deadly game being played here.
Leafbox:
As a journalist and as a thinker about media information management, how do you think you are seeing through it? How are you seeing through the untruths? Why does writers at the New York Times differ? Is it because you're a foreigner in Japan that you think you have that, or where do you get that independent spark from?
Robert Jefferson:
I've got nearly 50 years of experience in news in international news as a foreign correspondent with ABC news here in Japan. I was also the Tokyo correspondent for the West German public broadcaster Deutsche Welle Radio at the same time that I was working with ABC. And at that time, I was also an announcer at Tokyo Broadcasting System. It was a weekend anchor at Japan able television. I did some radio programs and entertainment program music programs here in Japan. I've been around the world, not all everywhere. I haven't been to Africa, I haven't been to South America, but Europe and Asia and Pacific I've been to and covered stories. I can see how the news coverage has changed. It's very obvious to me. I can see right through it. I stopped watching television. I've got a television here. I've got one downstairs, big TVs. I don't even watch them anymore. I may hook them up to my computer and watch something online on my TVs, but I don't watch CNN. I don't watch Fox News. I'll watch little snippets of it online.
And one of my heroes was Peter Jennings, someone I really looked up to. He was with ABC. He started at ABC back in the sixties when he was 26 years old. He was an anchor for ABC's World News tonight. It may not have been called World News tonight then, but ABC's Evening News, whatever it was called back then. His father was a Canadian. He's Canadian. Well, he naturalized as an American citizen eventually, but his father was a news executive in Canada and Peter Jennings, I mean, he was a high school dropout. He never went to college, but he was absolutely brilliant. He was an autodidact. And yeah, I think he was quite brilliant. He didn't need such diplomas and degrees and things, but he felt that he needed to leave the anchor role and go and hone his skills as a journalist, which he did.
And he stayed with ABC, and he became the chief international correspondent based in London. And back in the early eighties, there was a tripartite anchor team, Frank Reynolds in Washington, max Robinson, the first black network news anchor in the United States. He was based in Chicago, and Peter Jennings was based in London. They had a wonderful, wonderful, and the ABC Evening News back then was absolutely wonderful. They actually told you what was going on around the world, but you could learn the names of countries and cities and leaders and places and people, and now you've got people on these networks now who can't even pronounce names correctly. Even people who are foreign correspondents can't even find places on maps. It's just, it's sad to see how low journalism has fallen and trust in journalism has really fallen. I mean, it's in the single digits now, which is sad.
So yeah, I can see through, I mean, the whole situation that erupted in February of 2022 in Ukraine, people like unprovoked attack by Russia. Russia wants to take over Europe. No, they don't. They simply want to be left alone. The United States under Bill Clinton tried to rob Russia, tried to go in there and steal Russian industry, the Soviet industry, basically to use the oligarchs who basically swooped in and scooped up all of these industries and made billions of dollars who were trying to persuade born Yeltsin who was suffering from alcoholism to basically sell out his country. He wasn't stupid, but he did have an alcohol problem, and he turned to Vladimir Putin and told him basically, dude, you got to help save Russia. A lot of Americans don't know the history between Russia and the United States, that Russia supported the American Revolution, that Russia parked some of its armada, naval armada off the coast of New York Harbor and told the French and off the coast of I think the Carolinas, and told the British and the French, don't you dare interfere in the American Civil War. The French and the British were trying to help the South and against the north, and the Russians, the Russian empires said, no, no, don't you dare.
Leafbox:
In one of the interviews you had with the, I forget the host of the name, but you said that you feel free in Japan. I forget the exact quote. You said, maybe like I'm a free black man in Japan.
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah.
Leafbox:
How does that connotate to how you analyze the world? I mean, do you think if you had been 40 year career in the States, you'd have this lens?
Robert Jefferson:
I have been back to the States once the first time to Hawaii for two years, and then when I was in 2000, I was turning, I think by the time I went back, yeah, well, that year, 2000, I turned 40. So I have been back to the states, and I had no desire to work for corporate media. I went back and went to work for WHYY in Philadelphia, which is an NPR and PBS affiliate, and I actually was an NPR correspondent. I was their Philadelphia correspondent. While I was there covering expressly presidential visits, whenever a George Bush would come to town, president Bush would come to town, I would join the White House press pool at the airport and ride in the presidential motorcade into the city and follow the president around. I was a pool reporter, and then I left WHYY and went out west.
I wanted to challenge myself and do more. So I went into media management and worked at a community radio station in Portland, Oregon. And then I went to another community radio station owned by Bellevue Community College, just outside of Seattle, Washington, and went into a management there as assistant general manager and program director at a radio station there. And it was wonderful to work at a nonprofit media organization teaching people how to do news. And when I was there, Portland, Oregon was voted year after year as the most livable city in America. Look at it now, a shithole, a shithole of left-wing people who've just destroyed the city. And I'd always consider myself left. But at 63 years old, now I'm conservative, not a Republican conservative. No, I'm just conservative of hopefully someone who's got a little bit of wisdom and who would like to conserve decency and morality and people's right to practice whatever religion they want to and to say what they want to look at, how free speech is being eroded in the United States.
Now, some of the things, I'm talking to you now, I'd be criticized or banished from saying, and this is by people on the left. We never heard anybody on the right saying banished them. And I remember when I was in Hawaii at KHVH News Radio, rush Limbaugh was getting his start. He was on KHVH. Larry King was on KHVH, and we allowed people to say what they wanted to say, Limbaugh. He would take the word liberal and say liberal. He would just vomit it out. But you had another voice on there, Larry King and other voices, left, right, center, whatever. And now look at how polarized and divided America is today. It is sad. It's very sad. But yeah, it is not like I'm here in Japan in a bubble. I can see everything. You see, I don't watch television, so I'm not watching KION or what, I forget what the other stations are. I wouldn't watch them. But if something is newsworthy, I can go online and see what's happening in Lahaina or Lana, as most of the journalists these days call it. They don't even do your research, learn the pronunciation, and they even put up a transliteration on the screen, L-A-H-H-A-Y-nah. It's not Laina, it's Lahaina.
It's just laziness. A lot of journalism today is just laziness going along to get along, being part of the team. And this is what I didn't like about sports growing up, just seeing brothers fighting over a goddamn ball game. And here we have that now, this sports mentality, this tribal mentality of wearing colors and painting your face colors of your team, and it's bled into our politics. Now. I remember the house speaker Tip O'Neill, he would say something, oh, my friend across the aisle, now it's that terrorist across the aisle or that oph file across the aisle or something. America has really devolved, and as someone who grew up at a time when in the sixties, up until the early to mid seventies, we didn't lock our doors. There were no home invasions. What happened in Lewiston, Maine yesterday, 22 people being shot. We didn't have kids going into school, shooting up each other. We had kids walking down the street with a shotgun over their shoulder. They were going to hunt some squirrels or deer hunting or something, and they did it right. They registered their guns, they wore the orange stuff, and what the hell happened? What happened to families? What happened to mother and father? Now you've got single women raising kids, fathers, making babies, and walking away, what the hell happened to America? And it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.
Leafbox:
Going back to Japan, I'm just curious, Japan has a history of political violence and disagreement.
Robert Jefferson:
Last year we had the assassination of a former Prime minister.
Leafbox:
Correct. So I think
Robert Jefferson:
The attempt assassination this year of another one, it's successor.
Leafbox:
So I'm just curious how you contrast that to the us or if you do, or I always feel like information in Japan is actually more free
If you look for it.
Robert Jefferson:
YouTube channel, well, not used, but websites aren't banned here in Japan as they are in the eu. They don't have these draconian measures like the EU does. And the United States would love to impose information flows freely here in Japan, if you know where to look for it. If you want it, you can look for it. You can get a VPN and disguise your location and find out more information. But yeah, political violence, there's a long history of it here. I mean, going back thousands of years, I mean, Kamakura, the city I live in here, there's a monument and the graveside of a guy named Hino who had his head lopped off because he disobeyed a Shogun. And just this morning I walked past his little, this little graveside. It is like, wow. And I looked into the history of it. He got beheaded because he disagreed or the win against a local warlord or Shogun, the leader of, well, Japan wasn't unified then, but it was becoming unified.
But yeah, Japan was extremely fascistic at the turn of the last century, the 20th century, prime ministers were assassinated. The military took over, got Japan involved in World War ii. Yeah, yeah. But it's been very peaceful here, post World War ii, there are lots of heinous crimes that are committed every day, seemingly ordinary people. People you wouldn't expect to fathers against sons, sons against fathers or against mothers. It happens here. Japan is not a paradise here, but it is. I do lock my doors here, but no one has ever bothered me here at my home. No one's bothered my car. People are very decent. There's decency here that is disappearing fast, disappearing in the United States. Neighbors who won't talk to you in the United States, I know my neighbors here. One reason I moved out of Tokyo is because neighbors, you lived in an apartment building. You get on an elevator, you're like, well, who are you? I wanted to know who you are.
I'm Robert. I live on the sixth floor. Who are you? I demanded people to know who people were. But here, people are curious. They want to know, well, who's this black guy who moved here when I moved here 17 years ago, and now everybody knows me. The police know who I am. They come by and check on me. They have a registration that you fill out so that they know who's who. But yeah, I've never bothered by the police. I don't fear going to the police station. I laugh and joke with him. One policeman came on his motorbike years ago when I first moved here a few years after I moved here. And he was just doing his patrols. And he slipped and fell, and he had some mud on his boots and up his pant leg. And so I helped him wash it off and whatnot. And we had a good laugh about that. Yeah, I mean, it is, I don't have to put up with foolishness, and I'll look at things on Twitter or X as it's called now, of black, especially youth running amuck in the states, going into convenience stores or department stores and just going crazy, acting crazy in fast food joints, tearing the place up, throwing chairs and tables and stuff. It's like, what the hell? I never experienced that when I lived in the United States. And everybody thinks it's normal now.
That happens. Something terrible is going on in the United States, as you say. It's happened in Venezuelas, it's happened in Colombia, it's happened in Mexico, it's happening in Europe. Now. The chickens are coming home to roost. I don't know, but something is afoot, and I'm simply saying, not today, Satan. Not here, not with me.
Leafbox:
So maybe we can go to your gardening project, Robert, because that sounds like a, to me, it feels like a counter to all that negative energy. You have this personal space, and you have such a wonderful voice and broadcast history, but now you're producing this content that offers an alternative. So I'd love to know where that comes from and why you're doing it.
Robert Jefferson:
It's catharsis, it's healing. Nearly 50 years of covering wars and murder and mayhem and thievery, and just, I'll admit it, it's still exciting when news happens. It's exciting to see. When I was a kid, I always wanted to be the first to know and the first to tell. I wasn't a snitch. No. But that's what attracted me to journalism was being the first to know and the first to spread the word for me. Now, after all these years, five, six decades of reporting the news, I'm tired. Some or so that I gave up drinking three years ago. I gave up alcohol, completely, cold Turkey in one day, April 30th, May 1st next day, Mayday, mayday, mayday. I was alcohol free. And I had been since then, desire, I even had still a few bottles left in the fridge and here and there, and I gave them away.
I had no desire to drink anymore. So my gardening, I've been doing that pretty much all of my life with some breaks in between. I grew up gardening, helping a neighbor, particularly with her garden. And then as a teenager, when I was also working at the radio station, and on weekends, during the week, especially in the summertime, during summer break, I worked for a landscaper, a guy in my town. He had a landscaping business. And I love working with plants, either cutting them down or helping them grow. Yeah, it is just beautiful for me. This is very cathartic, the gardening. And then something said, well, I've been doing this for years and I'm not, I thought about YouTube years ago, and it's like, nah, it is the alcohol that made me so lazy. I didn't even want to do it. And then finally, oh, about 2016 or so, 2016 I think it was, I made one video, and if you go back and you can see my very first video, it's featured my two dogs at the time, my band spunky and just showing my garden.
And then three years ago when I quit drinking, I needed something to do with my time because I'm an independent contractor, so I don't have a set schedule, schedule changes, and sometimes I'm busy and sometimes I'm not back. Three years ago, I was not very busy at all, and now I'm extremely busy and I love it. But yeah, it was a chance to channel my energies into something productive and to give something back to the world. Instead of talking about how many people got murdered in Lewiston, Maine yesterday, how to take this little seed, sprout it, grow it into a tree that's taller than me now, and to give something back. A lot of my subscribers and viewers, as you say, they mentioned how calming my videos are. And I think now that you've heard me talk for a while, you can see why I do what I do.
I've got a lot in me that's just screaming to get out, and it's not all negative, but there's a lot of negativity out there. And instead of joining that bandwagon, I decide to put this energy into something that can hopefully, even if people don't want to get into gardening or they can't because they live in an apartment. Someone just sent me a message the other day saying, I mentioned growing stuff. If you have a balcony, and they said, no, I live in an apartment. I don't have a balcony. Then I thought about, yeah, there's a lot of people who don't even have balconies, but if they can't do gardening, at least I can bring them some sort of enjoyment or peace of mind for the 15 or 20 minutes that they're watching my channel.
Leafbox:
Well, that's why I enjoy it. I think you're offering kind of like, yeah, just a counter to that negative informational, and also being in Japan, you're creating, as an American, you're offering this alternative Look, you can live in this calm way. You can go to the gardening store and be polite. You don't have to rob the store. You don't have to get in a fight. You can share this space. And you met this British guy, and he's doing the natural farming. Another form,
Robert Jefferson:
Actually, he's Dutch.
Leafbox:
Oh, Dutch, sorry.
Robert Jefferson:
He studied in Britain. He went to Oxford. And yeah.
Leafbox:
Anyway, it's just nice to see you building this community. I mean, you have the community of foreign correspondents and Japanese broadcasters, so it's nice to see you go very local, but now you're sort to, you can feel the layers building you're building.
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. This is one reason why I wanted to come back to Japan. I went back to the States, and I was there for five years. Even though the people here is a majority Japanese country, it's not as homogeneous as you think it is because the foreign communities are growing here, especially other Asians, Vietnamese and Chinese and Koreans. The article in the newspaper just yesterday that I saw that the numbers are increasing quite a bit, but it's a place to come and meet people from all over the world. Hendrick, my neighbor here, I walked past this house every morning and I'm like, this is Hendrick. This is interesting. And then one afternoon I walked past and I see, oh, this is your place. And he looked at me like, who are you? Like, well, who are you? Why are you half naked out here in somebody's front yard and it's his front yard?
And I said, dude, we sat and talked for an hour and a half, and then I came back with the camera. I said, if you don't mind, I'd like you to give me a garden tour and whatnot. He just sent me an email this morning. He's going back to Shizuoka, which is south of here. He's got some land there. Him and his son are going down for the weekend to do some work on the land they just bought. They don't have a structure on the land yet, but they're just working the land. Yeah, it's a chance to meet people from all over the world. And I found that when I was in the States, there's this closed mindedness, this closed mentality. You in Honolulu, you've got a lot more, as we were saying earlier, there's a lot more diversity, cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and that makes a living in Hawaii so nice is that diversity.
It's not just all the same types of people or people. They had their enclaves here and there, but there's more of in the United States, I mean even in places like New York or even the larger cities, people are separated in different enclaves. Here, there's a lot more melding in, well, it wouldn't make sense for all Americans to live in this section or all the Chinese to live in that section. But I mean, you do like an ost, there's a preponderance. There's a lot more people of Korean descent than in other cities. And in Yokohama, a lot more people of Chinese descent. But you don't have these ghettos that you see, these ethnic ghettos that you see in the States. So here, it's, it's a place to be, place to be yourself, to be oneself, to be who you are. A lot of people, especially when they're young, they come here and they do this.
If, I dunno if you remember that song, turning Japanese, I forget who, a Divo or somebody turning Japanese. Oh, yes, I'm turning Japanese. Oh, yes, I think so. I forget who did the song. And people play that little thing. Everybody goes through that. We're in kimono and going to the Matsui, the festivals and stuff. Everybody goes through that. Then you've kind of had enough of that. But it's a place to, because I don't care. Even if you get Japanese citizenship, you're never going to be Japanese. So it's a chance to come and find out who you are. I don't have to speak like a brother from the hood, and I really can't do it anyway, so I better not even try. I don't have to act black. You may see in some of my speech patterns and mannerisms and whatnot, but I can just be me. We were talking, you were trying to figure out my accent. Earlier. When I was in high school and junior high school, I used to be ridiculed by other black kids. Bobby talked like he white because, well, if you notice, most children speak very clearly. They don't have black accents or this accent or that they speak very clearly. It's not until they get into puberty and beyond that, they start adopting these speech mannerisms of black or Asian or whatever.
Leafbox:
Do you think Japanese have the same freedom when they come to the US or when they leave Japan?
Robert Jefferson:
Yes. Yes. Because Japanese are under extraordinary pressures to fit in, to join a company, to fit into society, to not break the rules. It's a very rules-based society. And that's why you see such rebellion. And a lot of it, it may be superficial. A young Japanese kid with dreadlocks or now since the nineties, the big fat is to bleach blonde your hair, bleach your hair blonde. It's such a, and they're trying. Even still, there's a debate going on for high schoolers about the length of hair. They have to keep their hair at a certain length. The girls can't perm their hair. In many of the schools, the boys, if they have curly hair, they have to straighten it. And now you've got kids of mixed heritage. And there was a kid who's part black and part Japanese, and he was trying to wear cornrows at his graduation ceremony and couldn't attend. They banned it from attending and things like that. But see, I didn't grow up that way. I didn't grow up here for one. But yeah, there's a huge pressure. There's a lot of pressure, tremendous pressure for Japanese to conform, and they leave a lot of 'em still. There's a huge desire, oh, I want to go to the States, because they can finally explore who they are, who they want to become.
And I had many students when I was teaching at Temple for 13 years, they said, yeah, next semester I'll be going to the main campus. And my advice was, be careful, make good friends and be very careful. But I said, go and explore. I mean, you're going to meet some wonderful people there, and you'll meet some horrible people. Some of them will be white, some of them will be black, some of them will be fellow Asians. You're going to have good times and bad times, but just take care. Be careful. Watch your back.
Leafbox:
Robert, talking about your classes at Temple, I think you were teaching ethics. What were you teaching? Ethics. I taught Journalism. I taught journalism. I started teaching media management and organization. That was my first course. Then I taught writing courses. And then at the end, I was teaching, the last four years or so, five years maybe. I was teaching ethics in journalism and the history of journalism. They were separate courses. So I taught history one semester, ethics, the next history, the ethics, the next, or over the summer I teach one or the other. So the history of journalism and ethical issues in journalism. Yeah.
Well, I was just curious about what topics you were particularly interested in the ethics of journalism.
Robert Jefferson:
A lot of it dealt with hypocrisy in the media and using clips from media showing the hypocrisy and the outright lies, showing how, for example, CNN, there's a CNN correspondent in London, staging a demonstration. They went and got a group of people from a particular group. They were Muslims, and I forget exactly what they were protesting against, but they were actually telling people where to stand and how to stand. And the cameraman only framed these people in the shot to make it look like it was a huge crowd, but it was only about 10 or 12 people. I don't know why they recorded the whole thing, but I showed them the clip of the correspondent and the producers telling people what to do, when to hold up their signs. And then suddenly, oh, we're live now in London and it's all fake. And I played a lot of them. Have you seen the clip of the news catches like a montage of clips of newscasters all across the United States. We're concerned about our democracy. And they're all saying the same thing.
Leafbox:
Yes, it's troubling. I played
Robert Jefferson:
That years ago, three, four years ago to my classes. And that was from Sinclair Broadcasting. They had all of their affiliates around the country read the same script, and somebody got ahold of all of them and put them all together in this montage. And that was three years ago. And look what we have now, people being canceled for saying the wrong thing. And these news organizations claiming to want to protect democracy. No, no, no. This is what communists do. And in America, we don't learn about the communist Ong. In China, the cultural revolution back in the 1970s, it wasn't that long ago, just 50 years ago, of students going after their professors, putting paint on their faces, making them wear dunk caps and stuff. And what's the guy's name? Weinstein in Oregon, who was raked over the coals by his student.
Leafbox:
Oh, Brett Weinstein. Yes. Weinstein. That was before Covid
Robert Jefferson:
Out of his university. Him and his wife. Yeah. Yeah. And I was being, they didn't have the balls. My core supervisor, temple University didn't have the balls to confront me. He wouldn't even have, we never once sat down and have a conversation. How about anything? He's one of these probably Marxists. I mean, they were marching up and down the streets supporting George Floyd, who just recently this news came out when he died, that he was not killed by the police officer. And this is what I was trying to tell my students. He died of a fentanyl and not fentanyl. It's fentanyl. Look at how the word spell you idiots. NYL is nil. Tylenol, fentanyl. And you got broadcasters who don't even know the difference, can't even pronounce the word correctly. But he died of a drug overdose. Fentanyl was in his system. Alcohol was in his system, cocaine was in his system. And what was he doing when he got arrested? He was trying to steal from a shop owner by passing counterfeit bills. And he and the police officer were bouncers at a nightclub. They knew each other, they knew each other. But that was hushed. This whole thing was hushed and cities burned. Milwaukee burned. Five police officers in Dallas were killed. Shot in their cars or on the street or wherever. Five of 'em just murdered by B bbl, M and Antifa.
Leafbox:
And what was your relationship with the Temple professor? You were saying?
Robert Jefferson:
He was my core supervisor and he was talking behind my back, calling me a conspiracy theorist. Journalist should be conspiracy theorists. That's why we had, I have Stone and Jack Anderson and Seymour Hirsch, who's still alive. And Glenn Greenwald. All journalists should be conspiracy theorists. We have to theorize about conspiracies because our government carries them out. The Nord streaming bombing was a conspiracy to tell Germany and the rest of Europe stay in line. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, it was a conspiracy to get America more involved. The Vietnam War, the bombing of Pearl Harbor was a conspiracy not only of the Japanese, but Theodore Roosevelt, not Theodore Roosevelt. Franklin Roosevelt, FDR, to get America involved in World War ii, and he blamed it on Commanders of the Pacific fleets. There we should always be conspiracy. And this is what I was trying to teach my students to always ask questions. When I was a news director at the radio station at Portland, I was news and public affairs director, and I would put little reminders on the wall. Stay curious. Always stay here when somebody crossed out the C and put an F. Stay furious.
And yeah, this is what I was trying to teach my students to question authority. Our job as journalists is to give voice to the voiceless and to question those in power. Not to just power what they say. I mean, this whole Covid thing, especially Black people who were complaining about systemic racism, they ran out to get the man's poison injected into them multiple times. And now we're learning just how dangerous that s**t is. People dying of myocarditis, sports, people first and now just regular people, children, they injected the s**t into children. My own twin sister, she got injected and now she doesn't want to talk much about her medical problems. I mean, this is what the media has done to the United States in particular. It's happened here too.
Leafbox:
Robert, do you know what post-truth is, meaning the sense that we're moving into a media empire state, that it's almost impossible to know what's real or what's true AI like you're talking about the CNN,
Robert Jefferson:
It's Orwellian
Leafbox:
Generating narratives. What are some tools?
Robert Jefferson:
We have AI news announcers now. Yeah,
Leafbox:
I know, but how do you try to stay sane in a world where it's like a Philip k Dick universe in the sense that everything is unreal and unreal at the same time? So how do you navigate this post-truth? Reality?
Robert Jefferson:
You have to have a good knowledge base. You have to have lifelong learning. When you see that link in something online or whatever, click that link. Go deeper. When you see that word you don't know, click on it and look up that word. Broaden your knowledge base, read history. Go onto YouTube and look at some of the historical documentaries. And one, some of it, it's b******t, but the more knowledge you have read books. Who's reading books anymore? Not many people, whether it's an audio book, but you can listen to it, or if it's an ebook. Read study history. That's why I was telling you about the history between Russia and the United States. Most of us Americans have no freaking clue that Russia and the United States were once so very close. That's why Russia sold us Alaska for pennies on the dollar, and it was so far away. They hadn't even explored much of their far east. But yeah, and most people don't know that Russia and the United States, that Soviet Union were allies in World War ii. It was that Russia did most of the heavy killing in World War II to defeat the Germans. We're not taught that.
The whole thing with a Russiagate, you remember that? It was totally bogus. I was trying to tell my students then that this is b******t. It was all b******t, and I was proven right. I'm not there anymore. I tell the truth, but I was right. And those students will hopefully realize that their professor was trying to tell them the truth, and my superiors were trying to undermine me, and it is just sickening to see that whole Hillary Clinton cooked up that whole Russiagate thing and the FBI went along the FBI should be disbanded. The CIA was involved in overthrowing a duly elected president. And if it happens to Trump, I don't care what you think about Trump, I'm not. Are you a Trump supporter? No, I'm not a Trump supporter. I'm a truth supporter, and I would say this in class. I'd be the honest, do you support Trump?
No, I don't support, I didn't support Barack Obama either. Here's this obscure, skinny Black dude from Chicago who's elevated to the presidency, first to the Senate, and then the presidency. This is all b******t. It's all b******t. He's fake. I'm sorry, but yeah, the key is, is to become an autodidact, mean someone who learns on their own. Yeah. See, and a lot, Al Robert, you're just a conspirator theorist. It's like grow up. I've had enough, I tried to warn people about the Covid injections. It is totally bogus, and most people don't realize that the whole thing was a Department of Defense project. Most Americans had no clue. That was all DOD working with the Chinese. Anthony Fauci sent millions of dollars because of gain of function. It has been banned in the United States, but they did it anyway, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. So they farmed it out to the Chinese and then blamed it on them. Isn't that some nasty s**t?
Leafbox:
I mean, that's one theory. There's also the Chinese theory, so there's so many theories and alternative theories, and that's why I,
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah, the Chinese theory is like, okay, okay, we're not stupid, so we're going to weaponize this thing against you. The art of war. That's another thing people need to study. People like Sun Tzu, study Confucius.
Leafbox:
One of my last questions, Robert. I have a lot of friends in America who are concerned about collapse in the US and the West, and they're all dreaming about either moving to Japan or moving to Alaska or doing the homesteading kind of thing. I lived in South America and we had a hyperinflation situation when I was young, so I've seen it firsthand.
Robert Jefferson:
Where were you?
Leafbox:
In Brazil when I was like 13. We had hyperinflation. Yeah. And so I'm just curious how you feel being in Japan. Are you going to retire? I mean, do you plan on staying the rest of your life in Japan, or what's your, do you want to return to the states or who knows what the so is?
Robert Jefferson:
I have no desire to return to the States. I did twice. And when I went back, was it 23 years ago, middle age, I could see then the downward spiral of American society. America's a beautiful country. I drove from Pennsylvania all the way across the country to the West coast, to Oregon, three and a half days. It took me, it's a beautiful country. They're beautiful people in America. I'm not anti-America. There's beautiful people there. Our governments, local, state, national, are basically ripping us off America's in debt. They've been talking about 33 trillion in debt. No, no, no. It's more than that. We're talking about quadrillions. If you can imagine trillions of quadrillions of dollars in debt, the pension plans are broke. There's no money there. Social security. There's no money there either. Remember Al Gore talking back in the 2000 election about the social security lockbox? People, Social security is gone. They'd spent all that money, and this is why they had to take us to war. To war. And there's going to be, I'm watching. I'm hearing a number of different voices. We're going to war on a global scale, world War iii. It's going to happen. They have to because most governments are broke. America's broke. Japan is broke. The European Union is broke, but Japan has been around for thousands of years. It still has cohesion.
They seem to be committing suicide. Young people don't want to have children. Businesses, when I first came to Japan, there were clear societal roles, familial roles. The father went out to work and he worked hard, and he worked for his company for a lifetime, whatever, and that's all gone now. Young people can't even find jobs or they're getting part-time jobs or whatever.
Everybody should first of all know where their food comes from. Where's the chicken come from? The supermarket not done. People should know where their food comes from. They should know how to grow food. They should start growing little things like herbs and tomatoes and potatoes. They're the easiest thing to grow. Go to the supermarket, buy some potatoes, wash them really good, and then put 'em in a brown paper bag. When they start sprouting, put 'em outside. Or if you have some old potatoes that start sprouting, put'em outside in a bag, I use grow bags, buckets will work.
Just have some drainage in them. People need to grow, need to know where their food comes from, and they need to start learning how to grow their own food and just like their ancestors did. Not that many generations ago when I was growing up in the sixties, I had friends whose parents could barely speak English. They're from Germany, they're from Italy. They were from Hungary or Ukraine. They left their countries for a better life. Americans of today may have to lead the United States for a better life. Don't just sit in the same place going through the same. I tried to tell my elder brother, how about Mexico? Oh, man, Mexico is dangerous. Dangerous. There are some wonderful places in Mexico, Probably. He's five years older than me. He's 68. He could live very well on social security there. People don't want to take the chance.
I always get on an airplane. Boom, I'm gone. I couldn't wait to get on an airplane, go somewhere else. Will I stay here in Japan? Yeah, I'll probably, but I'm keeping, I've got the corner of my eye on a side escape route. I'm not sure where. But like I just said, I can live on a retirement very cheaply somewhere. It could be, I don't know, Cambodia. It could be Vietnam. There's no major wars going on there right now. And the people there still, they still know how to smile. I do get asked this quite often, keep your eyes wide open, Japan. Not unless there's a major war. And it seems as though the leadership here, the political leadership, are just itching to get into a fight with someone and Japan's military, and they do have, it's called the Self-Defense Forces, but it's a military, but they have no practical experience fighting.
They'll get massacred. They don't understand guerrilla warfare. They don't understand urban warfare. Japan should just stay pacifist. I'd be glad to see American military bases. It leaves Japan. I mean, it's how I got here is through the military, but there's no need. Japan can defend itself, and actually it shouldn't be any need. Japan, Korea needs to stop fighting over some dumb s**t that happened a long time ago. So much of their culture has come from China and India and elsewhere through Buddhist connections and contacts. But yeah, Japan should stop trying to ape the west. Stop trying to imitate the West and be Japanese. Be Asian for once. Yeah, I mean, Japan and Korea should not be arguing the way they still are and China as well. But then these are global forces trying to divide and rule to keep the Korean peninsula separated. That's ridiculous that the Korean peninsula is still separated.
The same people still quarreling over some dumb s**t over some ideology from Europe, communism or capitalism, whatever the ism is, things are going to get tough. And this is why I walk five and a half kilometers every morning, an hour, an hour and a half. I don't drink anymore. I practice intermittent fasting, which is basically, for me, it means, and I do this every day, not just once a month or so. Every day. I stop eating at 5:00 PM I don't eat again until after nine o'clock the next morning. Then I'll have a large breakfast between then and five o'clock in the afternoon. I'll have some snacks, some fruit, some nuts, some baked goods that I make, homemade cookies or zucchini bread or something like that. I don't eat dinner anymore. Basically it's one meal a day, maybe two, but I never eat in the evening.
So between, I go to bed at eight o'clock every night. I'm asleep. I go to the bedroom at about 6:30, 7 o'clock, and I'm asleep by eight. I wake up at 3:30, 4 o'clock every morning, go out for my walk. And yeah, because at 63 years old, I'm only getting older. I'm not getting younger. So I need the stamina. I need the strength. A sports club. It's really unnecessary. I mean, just walking is plenty. I reversed pre-diabetes. I reversed hypertension, high blood pressure. I had fatty liver disease, so I reversed renal disease by quitting alcohol. I reversed hepatic disease, pre-diabetes and heart disease.
Get your life in order. Get your health in order. And if it's not working out where you are, think about getting up and going somewhere else. People are afraid to do that. Sometimes the boiling frog syndrome, you can sit in that pot of water, and that's not really true on the way, but it does make sense. If you sit into a pot of water, you don't really notice the heat rising until it's too late. And
Leafbox:
Then Robert, what's the best way for people to find you on the Kamakura Gardener Channel or any other way?
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah I'm on Patron. I spread it out. I'm on Patreon, patreon.com where people can actually support with a very small $3 a month patronage up to, what is it? I think my highest is $25 a month. That's A VIP patron. I'm on locals. Are you familiar with locals?
Leafbox:
Yes.
Robert Jefferson:
Yeah. So I'm on locals. I'm on Telegram Rumble, Odyssey and Bright Eon. Brighteon
Leafbox:
And obviously YouTube...
Robert Jefferson:
And YouTube.
And here in Japan. I'm online as well, so I do post my YouTube channel online as well. Things are going to start changing rapidly. I think the United States will see the end of Biden very soon. I don't know exactly when or how it'll happen, but Biden will not be president for very long. I think we're going to see something very, very shocking. Even more so than September 11th, 2001. The whole world is going to go through some cataclysms here, and what I'm simply trying to do is keep a clear head and stay clear of political parties and social movements, BLM or Antifa and all that silliness. Now, seek out like-minded people. Get in contact with them. I mean, there's a lot of good stuff on YouTube. YouTube, there's a lot of shitty things that the company does, but there's a lot of good people on there. It's a wonderful place to go and learn something.
Leafbox:
Well, that's why going back to your local work, I appreciate you reconnecting to the ground and grounding yourself in this local community of the plants and the Kakuta community. I think that's healthy.
Robert Jefferson:
We all need to go back and develop community. There will be chaos in Japan, but it won't be long lasting. Just after World War II, it was extremely chaotic. A lot of people were homeless. The black markets was terrible, but they coalesced into a nice group once again, within 10 years. Yeah, I'm in the winter of my life. I guess I'm transitioning from autumn into the winter of my life. I've just felt more at home overseas. That's why I told Renzo on Black Experience Japan, that I feel like a free Black man here. I don't have to act black. I don't have to say, oh, that's my tribe. I can just be me and I can have my own views, and I'm not afraid to express them. Conspiracy theorist. Well, up. Yours too, buddy. So what? I don't care because what's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and the truth? Well, about six months really. All of the stuff that I was accused of in conspiracy theorist about it turned out I was right. Not that I was right, it was right. The topic was Russiagate, this, that, and the other. All of this stuff. Just give it time and the truth will out.
Leafbox:
Robert, I don't want to take more of your time. Be well.
Learn More @
TKG on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheKamakuraGardener/about
TKG ON PATREON: patreon.com/TheKamakuraGardener
TKG ON ODYSEE: odysee.com/$/latest/@TheKamakuraGardener
TKG ON RUMBLE: rumble.com/c/c-1708335
TKG ON BRIGHTEON: brighteon.com/channels/robert619
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com -
From Hino, Shiga, Japan, a conversation with biohacker, health advocate, and naturalist, Sachiaki Takamiya. Ancient wisdom echoes through Takamiya-sanâs life work, coalescing with the vigor of modern scientific discovery to birth what is known as the Ikigai Bio-Hacking method.
Authoring several books and a wide ranging blog, Takamiya-san has significantly contributed to the realm of Bio-Hacking. His seminal work, "Ikigai, BioHacking," serves as a bridge between the timeless Japanese natural health philosophy and the advancement of scientific progress in the realms of wellness and longevity. Ikigai Biohacking empowers individuals to reclaim their health through a simple, practical, and multimodal method that include:
* Diet
* Exercise
* Mentality
* Spirituality
* Planetary Health
The nuanced, nature-centric approach that he adopts sets him apart from the other âBio-Hackersâ , in contrast offering a holistic, grounded perspective on health and wellness.
As we delved into the heart of our discussion, Takamiya-san graciously shared insights on his biography, the essence of maintaining an independent spirit amidst a world obsessed with quick fixes.
His dedication to promoting a sustainable lifestyle, not just as a means to personal health but also as a blueprint for planetary health, reflects a depth of vision that is both rare and needed in today's biohacking landscape.
Learn more about https://ikigaibiohacking.com/
Summary Notes:
Introduction
- 00:55 How I discovered Sachiaki Takamiya
- 04:27 Promoting Ikigai Biohacking - Blend of Japanese health practices and Western biohacking
- Exploring and Relevancy of Biography to Current Work
- 07:12 Background in English-speaking countries
- 13:10 Return to Japan
- 18:00Exposure to Materialism in the Bubble Japan
- 20:00 Exposure to alternative lifestyles and naturalist movements
- 22:57 Interest in spirituality and philosophy of life
- 27:54 Conformity and Individuality
- 36:48 Red-pilling his Teacher
- Focus on the Ikigai Diet and biohacking practices
- 43:55 - Summary of Philosophy
- Emphasis on natural methods and avoiding commercialization
- Interest and Discussion on health benefits of Natto
- 48:28 Skepticism towards artificial biohacking and reliance on technology
- 51:56 Concerns about privacy and data collection
- 55:52 Importance of maintaining natural abilities and intuition / Critique of Technology
- Focus on individual choice and respect for different perspectives
- 58:23 Cult / Group Dynamics. The dangers of biohacking
- 1:06 Non âstandard practicesâ
- Other Topics
- 1:10 Naturalist Experience of COVID 19 in Japan
- 1:14 Japan respecting Individual Autonomy
- Polarization in the West vs Japan
- 1:15 Discussion on Current Interests and Future Projects
Learn more about
https://ikigaibiohacking.com/
Full transcript @ leafbox.com
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com -
Author and Thinker Charles Hugh Smith boldly declares: the status quo is unsustainable.
Through his writings, Charles pierces beneath the surface, challenging conventional narratives and exposing the deep-seated systemic issues that erode our social and moral fabric."
From exploring the moral decay undermining social order to crafting viable solutions, Charles ventures into the depths of values, priorities, and tools essential for navigating our rapidly evolving society and economy.
We dive into his biography, the role of his upbringing in Hawaii, his creative interests, and his pursuits for sharing and exploring for those trying to adapt, understand and reshape the world.
Follow Charles Hugh Smith @ oftwominds.com
On Twitter @@chsm1th
On Substack @ charleshughsmith.substack.com/
Time Stamps / Topics2:23: Life on Lanai / Biography8:44: Producing a Underground Newspaper / Parallels to Current Work12:27 Punahou and Neo-Feudalism 18:32 Lessons from Time Capsules23:05 The Value Physical + Mental Labor28:05 Life on the Mainland 32:47 The Doom Hierarchy + Models for Collapse39:33 The Importance and Role of Finance45:01 On Ideological Frameworks Lens50:00 On Creative Pursuits + The Authentic Self54:00 The Issue of Multi-polarity 1:00 Exploring Solutions and More1:05 What Hawaii can teach the world1:08 Current Focus: Mythologies1:10 Contact Information + Close
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Interview: Eric Shahan - Shinobu Books
Eric Shahan, an American translator based in Japan for the last 20 years, has been independently publishing translations of Japanese texts, many of which are esoteric or obscure with a current focus on martial arts manuals, the esoteric, irezumi or tattoo culture, 18th century manga and other works.
In this conversation we discuss his approach to translation, his wide range of interests and his encouragement and tips for others try independent translation research and publishing. Shahan's translations are available on Amazon.
Shinobu Books
Twitter: @ShinobuBooks
Instagram: @Shinobu Books
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Transformative insights from Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride - a personal journey at the intersection of medicine, healing nutrition, regenerative farming and making sense of the world.
This interview explores the profound journey, revolutionary insights, and current work of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. Graduating with Honors as a Medical Doctor in 1984 from Bashkir Medical University in Russia, she embarked on a path of exploration that would reshape her understanding of health and well-being.
Beyond her academic accomplishments, Dr. Campbell-McBride has transformed her knowledge into action as a regenerative farmer, cultivating a thriving organic and biodynamic paradise that stands as a testament to sustainable farming practices.
A sought-after keynote speaker, Dr. Campbell-McBride shares her insights on the global stage, influencing both practitioners and the general public alike. As a Member of The Society of Authors and The British Society for Ecological Medicine, and a Director on the Advisory Board of The Weston A Price Foundation, her contributions to the realm of nutrition are substantial.
In this interview/podcast episode as we unravel the life's work of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, a visionary whose journey has ignited a paradigm shift in understanding health, nutrition, and the intricate connections that bind us to the world around us.
Photo Credit: Dr Natasha Campbell-McBride
More information on Dr Natasha and her GAPS work
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V. Vale is the editor and founder of Search & Destroy and RE/Search, an influential figure in publishing who aims to produce enduring books that explore uncharted territories. His publications embody a blend of optimism, dark humor, and anthropological objectivity, all while maintaining a distinctiveness that appeals universally. Instead of relying on academic jargon or unnecessary shock value, Vale prioritizes conveying intricate details with clarity, without resorting to gratuitous sensationalism.
Iâve been a fan of Re/Search for many years and we connected over Zoom along with long term life and business partner Marian Wallace to discuss interviewing techniques, body language, agenda, publications, keeping inquisitive and open, the Financial Times, finding the surreal in everything and parenting tips.
Thanks for listening and reading.
Discover Re/Search Publications
Instagram: @Vale_Research
Opening Song âLetâs Go Walkingâ - V. Vale piano and vocals. Produced by Marian Wallace
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Erik Millstone is an Emeritus Professor of Science Policy in the Science Policy Research Unit (SPRU) at the University of Sussex. He gained a first degree in Physics, followed by three postgraduate degrees in Philosophy.
His expertise centers on the role of scientific expertise and evidence in managing technological risks, especially those arising in the food chain.
Currently retired but still active in doctoral advising and public commentary. We connected to discuss food safety, regulation, questioning authority, Iran, Brexit, and his past as a scientist, and researcher.
Connect with Professor Millstone
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Aaron Moulton is an American curator based out of Denmark. Formally with Gagosian Galleries, and other international galleries he is interested in secrets of creativity, the evolution of art, perception, and roots his curatorial practice in anthropology, journalism, innovation, folklore etc.
I first became interested in Aaronâs work finding his massive, fascinating and riddle like exposure of the Soros Centers for Contemporary Art. We discussed this project but also survey some major curations over about 20 years to understand the arc of his exploration.
Major Works / Projects Discussed
* The Influence Machine (PDF)
* Each Memory Recalled Must Do Some Violence To Its Origins @ Undisclosed Location Utah 2012
* AMERICANAESOTERICA
* Trito Ursitori
* Homage to Hollis Benton
* Homage Benton Interview
* Seeing Eye Awareness
Connect with Aaron Moulton
Photos / Videos / Images Courtesy of Aaron Moulton
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