Afleveringen
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Are you committed to Christ but searching for guidance? In this new reflection, Jonathan Youssef explores the gripping Biblical story of Jacobāa tale of struggle, transformation, and divine engagement. Jonathan connects his own experiences with Jacobās journey, offering insights into the challenges of perseverance, the power of repentance, and the profound ways God works in our lives.
Listen and deepen your understanding of spiritual growth and how our trials can lead to profound blessings. This is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration and guidance from God.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 255: Wrestling with God: Jonathan Youssef
In seventh grade, I joined my middle school wrestling program. For two weeks, we ran and did all kinds of exercises, and then we would wrestle each other for the rest of the time we were there. And I did not like it. I lost to a guy who was younger than me. I lost every day. I was terrible. And I was tired of losing, and I lacked perseverance. There is little more humiliating than being wedged under the fat arm of a sweaty teenage boy, and I thought, This is as low as it gets.
Well, our reflection today is about wrestling and persevering. Iāve always been intrigued by the biblical story because it has so many layers. Itās multifaceted and multidimensional. And itās a little bit dangerous, meaning that there is potential to miss the main point of what the text is saying and to misunderstand or misrepresent it.
Over the years, Iāve reread it, read commentaries, listened to talks, and consumed all I can to try to understand it better. I want to know what is taking place at this really important moment in salvific history.
We have this man, Jacob. He has been at odds with his brother since birth. Even in the womb, he and Esau are wrestling with each other. He is at odds with his father over who is the favored son. He is at odds with who should be blessed. Heās at odds over who had the birthright in the family. Heās used trickery and deception to achieve his purposes. Heās at odds with his Uncle Laban, a master trickster himself.
But in Genesis, we begin to see the undoing of this character, Jacob. Heās being undone, and heās being changed and transformed through these middle chapters of this book. Heās served his crooked uncle/father-in-law for twenty-some-odd years, and in many ways, heās echoing the prodigal son here. Having come to himself, heās leaving Laban here, and heās coming home, you might say, to the homeland of his father, to his older brother, and although God has begun to work in him, although he is a new man, as it were, spiritually, it becomes clear that God is not finished with Jacob yet.
And so this chapter unfolds with three dramatic pictures. First, in verses 1 through 21, we have the picture of Jacob returning. God has been working in his life, as we just noted. God has also been working in the lives of Jacobās two wives, Leah and Rachel, and now Jacob has sent word to his brother, Esau, the brother who swore that he would one day kill his little brother in a very Cain and Abel-type fashion.
So Jacob sends the word, āHey! Iām coming home.ā Heās really only able to do this because the Lord has told him, āThe day will come that Iām going to bring you back to this land. And I am promising that I will do you good, that I will prosper you, and that I will be with you.ā
If you remember the account of Jacobās ladder, where Jacob falls asleep, and he envisions this ladder coming down from heaven, and the angels ascend and descend upon the ladder, the Lord tells him, āI will be with you. I will bring you back to this land. I will give it to you and your offspring. And the whole earth will be blessed through you and your seed.ā And, of course, it reminds us of the very same promise given to Abraham.
He promises to keep and return him to that land, and now that day has come. In verses 1 and 2, we read that the angels come and meet Jacob. Itās confirmation that the Lord is with him. He names the area Mahanaim, meaning ātwo camps.ā
Now, perhaps heās referring to the fact that itās his camp and the Lordās camp; the Lordās camp will be his shield and protection. Because heās going to need it. And the report comes back, āHey, Esauās coming to see you. Heās got four hundred guys with him. Itās going to be great, right?ā
Okay, either Esau is rolling out the red carpet for his little brother, or Esau has come for his vengeance, and he has not forgotten 20 years of anger and hostility. Verse 7 says, āThen Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed.ā
Now, when it comes to our fears and the Lord, do we find that the way that the Lord enables us through our fears is by removing the fear, removing the obstacles? Or do we find that He gives us greater reasons not to fear than to fear? Here is Jacob, and heās stuck in a difficult situation. He cannot return to his Uncle Laban; heās terrified to go forward to his brother, Esau, and the unknown. What's he going to do?
Well, heās a different man now. He probably would have used skill and trickery to weasel out of this in his past life. He would have found a crafty way to save himself, even at the cost of his own family.
But heās a different man now, and Jacob perseveres despite his hesitancy, fear, and distressāunlike my illustrious wrestling career.
And then we see Jacob do something weāve never seen him do in Scripture. He gets on his knees, and he pleads with God. Heās praying for Godās help in his dreadfully fearful situation. And Jacob prays the longest prayer in the book of Genesis. And the prayer shows us that he now belongs to the Lord. Itās evidence that the Lord is working in your heart, is it not, when you begin to call on His name, and itās not just, āLord, Iām in a mess. Help me out of this,ā but rather, itās āGod, you promised to be with me. You promised to protect me. And so Iām coming to you, claiming on those promises.ā
And that's what Jacob does, āLord, you said that you would do good to me. Fulfill your promise to me.ā You notice itās not a panicked prayer, āGod, get me out of this bind, and Iāll build a hundred churches for you.ā
No. Instead, you have a man at the end of his resources, holding onto God's promises to bless him, and then he patiently sits, trusting that the Lord will act.
Then, we see another change in Jacob: a repentant heart. Itās an attitude of repentance. That's whatās happening with this whole procession going out to Esau. He sends the people and the animals and tells them to give a message to Esau: These gifts are from your servant, Jacob. Now, heās scared, yes, but heās coming behind us. Heās indebted himself to you. Do you want a sign of a changed life? Do you want a sign of a repentant heart? You are prepared to go to the person you have offended, and you say to them, āBecause of what the Lord has done in me through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, I can come before you and serve you.ā
Think of Zaccheus, āA wee little man was he. He climbed up in the sycamore tree for the Lord he wanted to see. In the British version, it says, āAnd Jesus said, āIām coming to your house for tea,āā because they all drank tea back then. But what does Zaccheus do? Does he just say, āLord, Iām sorry. I was bad. I did wrong. Forgive me, Lord,ā and then just move on?
No! He gives four times back. He repays his debts. Itās evidence of a changed man. And that's the other thing that Jacob is doing, right? Heās gifting these 550 animals. Heās saying, āBrother, I stole your blessing. I used deception and trickery for my own advantage, and now Iām giving it back to youā because I understand I need to be made right with you.ā
Itās more than just feeling sorry in a moment. In Scripture, repentance is God's work of grace in my heart. I am sorry for my sin and find His forgiveness, but Iām also working towards restoration, repairing whatever damage I have caused.
The story is told of a machinist or factory worker in the Ford Motor Company in Detroit who had, over several years, borrowed tools and equipment, but never returned them. The machinist was thoroughly converted and was baptized. He wanted to put his faith into practice, so he came back to work to his boss, to the foreman, and he brought all the tools he had stolen and all the equipment he had taken, and the foreman didnāt know what to do. And heās repenting, and heās confessing what heās done, and so the foreman, impressed by this, cables Henry Ford and says, āYouāre not going to believe this. This guyās come back, and heās brought everything with him,ā to which Ford cabled back, āDam up the Detroit River and baptize the whole city.ā That's what's happening here with Jacob. Heās bringing the blessing back. The blessing that the Lord has poured out on him, heās giving it back.
Jacob returning. Then we have a second scene, which Iām sure weāre all a little more familiar with, and this is the scene of Jacob wrestling. Heās not only sent his possessions on, heās sent his whole family ahead. Verse 22 states, āHe took his wives and servants and his eleven children, and they crossed over the Jabbok at night.ā
And then, in verse 24, heās all alone, and a man grabs him in the darkness and begins to wrestle with him. My seventh-grade selfās nightmare because I didnāt like wrestling. That was the allusion to that if youāre following along.
Who do you think Jacob thinks heās wrestling? Itās most likely that he thinks heās wrestling with the man who swore to kill him, the man that all of this procession and all this fuss is about. At this moment, Esau is who Jacob thinks his most significant conflict is with. The one I have to wrestle with is my brother, itās Esau.
But that is not who he wrestles with in the night, as we find out later in this passage and as we read in Hosea chapter 12, which is a little brief commentary. We find out that Jacob is, in fact, wrestling with some manifestation of God in the flesh, a pre-incarnate Christ. And so then weāre left to ask the question, What will God gain from this, from wrestling with Jacob? Heās already sent all his possessions on ahead. Surely, God is finished with Jacob. Heās repentant, heās confessed, heās done it all. There is no box left to check.
But you see, Jacob has given all he has back, but the most important thing is that he has yet to give back. Do you know what it is? Itās Jacob. Itās Jacob himself. And Jacob may think that Esau is trying to get what is his, which is to take Jacobās life, but the reality is that God is wrestling with Jacob to take what is Hisāwhich is Jacob! And this wrestling, itās like a father with a child. You know thereās a way Iām not a good wrestler, as weāve illustrated, and youāre trying to catch up with me on this. But thereās a way for me to wrestle with my children while theyāre young, though my son is getting to the age where I canāt keep up with him. But thereās a way for me to wrestle with them, which keeps them engaged for a long time in which I never lose, and they never lose. That's sort of what God is doing with Jacob here.
But then He does this thing where He touches Jacobās hip, and now Jacob has this dislocated hip, and you need your hip as a pivot to wrestle, so now heās got nothing, heās zero. And heās clinging to God, and God is saying to him, āLet me go. Let me go,ā and Jacob says, āIām not going to let you go unless you bless me.ā
Hereās the context of these situations: The lesser is always blessed by the greater, so Jacob acknowledges that he is holding onto the greater being. I imagine heās still not sure who heās wrestling with, but heās holding on, and he sees by the power that's rendered his hip inoperable that heās holding on to a greater being. And heās saying, āI will not let you go unless you bless me.ā
If you go back and look at Jacob's life, you know what youāll see? Jacob is immensely blessed. Everything he does is blessed, right? That's what God promised to do, and that's what heās receiving. Everywhere he went, every person he interacted with was blessed, just as God has blessed us immensely. If only we had eyes to see, we could have blessing upon blessing in our lives and still miss the main point.
The main point is not the blessings, plural, but Godās blessing. And what is Godās blessing? It is that He has every part of us. And how Jacob enters into this blessing is obvious: God says to him, āWhat is your name?ā
And the response is one word: Jacob. Jakob. What's in the name? Twister is the etymology of the name Jacob. Twister, deceiver, heel-clutcher. And now God has gotten to the bottom of the issue: itās a confession. I am unrighteous, I am a sinner. My identity was in who and how I could trick them.
God is going right for his heart, saying, āGive me your heart, Jacob. That's what I want.ā You see that God is prepared to dislocate Jacobās hip to have Jacob's heart. That may be what God is saying to you, that the way to your heart is by the divine dislocation of something you take pride in, which is a source of great strength for you. Maybe you notice Heās touched the very thing in which you have depended on for your life, and Heās taken it away from you. That's what's happening to Jacob. The Lord draws him in to say, āJacob, itās not all the things in your life that I want you to give me; itās yourself that I want.ā
But you see, thereās a third scene, a beautiful scene. Jacob returned, Jacob wrestled, and now Jacob was limping. In the next chapter, chapter 33 of Genesis, we see Jacob return to his brother Esau, but heās not at the back of the caravan as he was before with his plan. Heās at the front now and prepared to take it all. But weāre told that heās doing two things. One, heās bowing down seven times, and the other is using the language of āI am the servant, and you, Esau, are the lord.ā
But I think if you were there that day to watch this encounter, those would not be the two things you would have paid attention to. I think the thing that would have captured your attention would have been this: his limp. Why is this significant? Because, beloved, this is a picture of the Christian life. Men and women who have been dislocated to different degrees because of the work of God in their lives and caused to limp, humbled under His sovereign, mighty hand; caused to limp, caused to be conscious of this for the rest of their lives of their weakness and their dependence on the Lord. Dependent on His forgiveness, dependent on His powerāmoment by moment, day by day. But the sun has risen upon them.
I wonder if youāve come across one of these people. And it doesnāt always have to be a physical variation of this; sometimes itās unseen, the wound, the dislocation. But when we were in Australia, there was a young man. He was in our Bible study, and he looked like he had been in a fire. He had an autoimmune disorder, and he received a bone marrow transplant from his sister, but the transplant caused his body to fight against itself. And so his body was covered in sores and blisters everywhere, and ulcers filled his mouth. Walking was difficult; eating was difficult.
As I said, he was in our Bible study, and so when I asked him his story, he said to me that he was a great swimmer. When he was in high school, he was actually training for the Olympics for the Australian national team. Then he started feeling strange, and his swim time started getting slower and slower, and that's when all the medical issues began in his life.
And he told me, he said, āYou know, before, I was a good kid, but I was very full of myself. I was arrogant. But God reached in and dislocated a part of me, taking away things I loved doing.ā
And even through his anger, frustration, agony, and pain, he never left the Lord, and the Lord certainly never left him. He would testify to the goodness of God, despite what everybody saw physically with their eyes when they encountered them. His faith and his dependence on the Lord remained until the Lord called him home a few years ago.
This is how the Lord said to him, āI want every part of you. I want your heart.ā You see, this is not just a principle of spiritual usefulness for Jacob and for us; this takes us to the heart of the gospel. For you see, there would be another night, centuries later, where two wrestlers were engaged, but this time a Son with His Heavenly Father, as He said, āLet this cup pass from me.ā And there is an equality in the wrestling. āLet this cup pass from me, and yet, I will not let you go despite what is coming, the agony and the shame that will be borne on the cross. I will not let you go, Father, until you bless them,ā which is why He says, āFather, forgive them, for they know not what they do.ā And so He, as Paul says, upon that cross became a curse so that the blessing may come to us.
Where are you today? Perhaps youāre on your way, like Jacob, and youāre walking through repentance and forgiveness. Are you willing to give up a little but not the whole? Perhaps youāre wrestling with God over these things at this moment, and you give a little, but then you fight for others, and itās a give-and-take relationship, and itās very back and forth. Perhaps you want to let go, or perhaps you have let go in the past, and the Lord keeps re-engaging with you in this wrestling match, and Heās waiting for you to say, āDonāt let me go. I will not let you go, even if it means me having a limp for the rest of my life.ā
Do you have a limp? Do you have a dislocation? May the Lord be gracious to us as He pursues our hearts.
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In this fast-paced world, managing our emotions and understanding those of others is more crucial than ever. Emotional intelligence (EQ) is about recognizing and managing your emotions effectively to reduce stress, communicate, empathize, overcome challenges, and defuse conflict. With high EQ, you can improve relationships, excel at work, and achieve your career and personal goals.
Today, Jonathan Youssef is joined by Clay Kirkland, a returning guest with over two decades of coaching experience and a rich background in staff development at the University of Georgia Wesley Foundation. Clay is certified in emotional intelligence and includes EQ as a vital coaching component.
Clay breaks down the concept of EQ into four crucial quadrants: self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship management. This episode isn't just theoretical; it is filled with practical advice, from managing personal emotions to enhancing interpersonal relations in various spheres of life, such as parenting, the workplace, and within the church community.
Listeners will gain insights into how emotional intelligence intersects with spiritual maturity, the practical applications of EQ in everyday scenarios, and strategies for developing emotional resilience. Clayās explanations bridge scientific understanding with theological perspectives, making this a must-listen for anyone seeking to enhance their emotional skills and lead a more fulfilling, empathetic life. Join us as we explore how mastering emotional intelligence can lead to profound personal growth and significantly better interactions in all areas of life.
This episode is for you, whether you're a leader, a parent, or simply someone looking to understand the emotional dynamics of the human mind.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 254: What is Emotional Intelligence and Why Does it Matter?: Clay Kirkland
[00:01] JONATHAN: Well, today we have a repeat guest. We like having repeat guests. We like to build up some relational collateral with our audience and so weāve brought back Clay Kirkland. Clay has spoken on a number of topics, including calling, with us on Candid Conversations, and today we are talking about emotional intelligence. Clay is a life coach with twenty-plus years of experience. He served for eighteen years as the director of staff development at the Wesley Foundation at the University of Georgia in Athens. He has a Master of Divinity from Asbury Theological Seminary and he is a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach. And so I will say, āWelcome back, Clay.ā
[00:51] CLAY: Thank you. I appreciate it. Glad to be here.
[00:55] JONATHAN: Well, this is a topic that has always been of great interest to me, and obviously to my team as we were having this conversation and your name came up pretty much immediately, and itās this issue of emotional intelligence, EQ, right? That's our abbreviation. So this is not IQ, a measure of general intelligence. This is EQ, emotional intelligence, and so maybe help us define emotional intelligence. Why is it important? What is it? Kind of step us through a little bit of that process.
[01:37] CLAY: Sure. Yeah. So itās a great topic. Iām very excited to be here to talk about it. And itās gone through a lot of iterations in terms of its understanding. Probably in the last forty years, really, itās been around and Iād say probably the last fifteen or twenty itās become a major player in conversations both in the business sector and also just in general. If we wanted to really boil it down to probably its simplest form, you would want to think about emotional intelligence in four different parts. Do you know yourself? Can you manage or read yourself? Do you know others? Can you manage and influence others? And that's about as easy as we can get it. Weāre leaving some things out, but across the bow, that's what weāre looking for those four quadrants. Thereās a self-understanding, thereās a social understanding, then thereās a self-leadership or management, and thereās a social leadership management and understanding.
[02:55] JONATHAN: Even in just giving the categories I feel like Iām picking up on the necessity of being able to understand yourself and know yourself, being able to manage yourself, right, self-controlāitās a fruit of the Spirit. And then on the relational spectrum, being able to relate to others, are ā¦ How do you lead? How do you interpret peopleās body language and cues and things that are being given off? So letās talk about the importance of just those four categories that youāve given us.
[03:45] CLAY: Sure. Well, you can, if we start with knowing yourself, right, and then think about that, as it relates to knowing others, we say things in life to our family or things are said about us that lead us back to what weāre really talking about when it comes to emotions. So youāll hear people say things like, āHe doesnāt have a clue what's going on.ā Or āDo you realize how angry you sounded when you said that?ā And that immediate defensive posture. So in interpersonal relationships, itās pretty much there on a consistent basis, that idea of do you know what's on the other side of you? And that's the self-awareness, right? And then do you know whatās happening with the people that are around you?
So that's the first part, right; itās just this knowledge. And the great thingāI didnāt mention this earlier, but the great thing of this kind of understanding emotional intelligence that plays into a lot of the definitions that people are putting out these days are that these are a set of skills that can be learned. This is not aā
[05:09] JONATHAN: Youāre not born with it.
[05:10] CLAY: āpersonality trait that, youāve gotten and youāre just stuck there. This is dynamic in a good way, but also in a sobering way in the sense that you can be really good at these and then stop being good at these, or you can be not good at these and then
[05:31] CLAY: āthey slide. But then outside of that awareness and knowledge, itās what do you do with it? Do you know how to manage yourself? And again, itās an interplay. Itās always going to blend with the knowledge. Do you know whatās appropriate for the moment either for yourself, coming out of you, with others, and then, can you apply this? So when we think about the brain, weāre thinking about this process of your limbic system where the seat of your emotions are, and your prefrontal cortex, where youāre making your rational decisions. So do you have understanding of both of those? Do you have control over both of those? And can you manage thatāwhen youāre aloneāor can you do that also when youāre with other people?
[06:34] JONATHAN: This is very scientific but also very practical. Letās bring in the world of theology. How do you differentiate between spiritual maturityāor do you differentiate between spiritual maturity and emotional intelligence? Are they one in the same?
[06:56] CLAY: I think you have to differentiate between the two, simply because someone who has no spiritual/religious anythingā
[07:09] JONATHAN: Theyāre capable of growing.
[07:13] CLAY: And being very emotionally intelligent. So youāre not automatically emotionally intelligent because you have some type of spiritual maturity in the sense of you have a relationship with God or you do certain religious disciplines that make you, in the eyes of other people, highly religious or devout.
There has to be a difference there. But when we look at the practical applications of emotional intelligence and you look at them and the practical applications of spiritual maturityāso probably the easiest one to go to is in the New Testament, to look at the fruits of the Spirit. You start talking about love, joy, patience, kindness, goodness. You get all the way down to self-control. And then you pull those back into the outcomes that emotional intelligence is supposed to create, thereās a lot of similarities, right? Obviously, self-control is one. Optimism is a massive one, which we can really link to joy and hope. The kindness piece would clearly cover those kind of interpersonal relationships. So itās not a perfect overlay, but that's where you see it.
[08:32] JONATHAN: Yeah, lots of connectivity there for sure.
[08:34] CLAY: Yes, a lot.
[08:38] JONATHAN:You mentioned the limbic system, the prefrontal cortex. Talk me through a little bit of that to give some clarity here.
[08:52] CLAY: Sure. And again, letās make it real simple.
[08:56] JONATHAN: Thanks.
[08:58] CLAY: Yeah, for all of us. Youāre going to have your reptilian part of your brain. That's your fight, your flight when youāre in danger. That's just kind of that aspect. If we get past that, weāre typically going to put our neural functions into two other categories. That's going to be your limbic system, and that's the āI feelā place. And then your neocortex, that prefrontal cortex, where youāre going to think rationally and youāre going to make decisions, youāre going to process them.
So what weāre trying to say is, because you get this a lot when I go around and talk to people about emotional intelligence, youāll typically hear someone or a group of people identify and say, āI donāt have a lot of feelings. Iām not very emotional, so I donāt know if this is going to help.ā
[09:59] JONATHAN: āIām a thinker, not a feeler,ā right?
[10:01] CLAY: That's correct, which just means that theyāre leaning much more heavily into one area of their brain than the others. That doesnāt mean that they donāt feel. It doesnāt mean that that limbic system is depressed or deformed or anything else; it just means that they are not as aware that that part of their brain is functioning and can function for them in positive, neutral or negative ways.
Again, if you were to describe me and say, āHey Clay, on a scale of 1 to 10, how emotional are you,ā most people then link that to whenās the last time you cried? Do you get chill bumps when you watch a video, or a commercial at Christmas, or whatever? And I would say, no, that's not the type of person I am. But that still doesnāt mean that that limbic system within my brain isnāt an active part of the brain. Because it is. For all of us it is, weāre just not leaning into it.
[11:14] JONATHAN: So is there a wayāI'm sure weāre all thinking of a person that perhaps is not leaning into their limbic system, and weāre thinking, How do you exercise that? And Iām assuming that your goal with clients and that sort of things is to try and help find balance. I assume you want a balance between being in touch with emotions, right, because emotions can be good indicators. They can also mislead, but they can be good indicators. And then you need a rational side to help navigate that. So how do you sort of exerciseāand we can do both sides of thatāhow do you, for those who are very much a feelings-generated person, how do they exercise their thinking and vice-versa?
[12:10] CLAY: All right. So letās start with the person who typically is not necessarily a feeling-type person. Iāll give you an example. I had a client several years ago, and he was a CEO of a company and I got brought in to work with him. We were meeting in the lobby of the hotel, like in the restaurant, and I asked him, I said, āTell me a recent story about something that went wrong at work.ā
So he tells me the story. And after he finishes, I said, āHow do you feel about that?ā
And he said, āBad.ā
I said, āTry something a little bit more deep, descriptive.ā And he just stared at me and said, āI donāt know, it just made me feel bad.ā
So I said, āHave you ever heard of the āemotions wheelā? Itās a very common graphic, you can google it.ā
So he pulled out his phone and said, āSiri, Google,ā and here comes the emotions wheel. It pops up on it and he stares at it. He stares at it for probably seven minutes. I was like, āWow, I donāt know if heās going to be able to do it.ā
And he finally said, āAngry.ā
And I said, āAll right! Great! This is good. This is good.ā So we spent several months with that wheel, using exercises that would help him start to recognize that he has feelings that are coursing in and out of his brain that he just wasnāt giving airtime to. So again, people who arenāt touchy-feely or arenāt kind of the emotional types, they typically wonāt feel anger. Theyāre aware of that frustration, but what they typically do, theyāre guarding themselves. And this is where weāre going to get off on a rabbit trail, so Iām going to pause myself, but they are typically guarding themselves from certain emotions they donāt like or they donāt believe are good or not the type of person they would be. Or pain, or whatever, again, canāt go there. But that's typically what you see.
So we just started to do exercises that caused him to become very aware of the emotions that were coursing through his brain and body and it became helpful. Again, itās not necessarily the end product, but we just needed to at least give some recognition.
On the flip side, someone whoās highly emotional, again, the way they would describe themselves, and they would say, āWell, I donāt really think that much,ā they do think a lot; they are just thinking primarily through their emotions. And you said it earlier: they can be great indicators, but they can also be misleading. So thatās where we kind of do some exercises for people in that kind of space to really pause and start to learn where theyāre making their decisions from.
Why are you doing this? āBecause I feel like it.ā What do you feel? āWell, I feel ā¦ā and they can just tell you.
And so that's when you have to do some exercises where you pause and put them in situations where you say something like, āIf your friend was about to do this, how would you tell him or her what to do? What kind of advice would you give them?ā That gives them a pause to consider. Or itās a common kind of way that we would do it, but we would debate our emotions.
So your classic, classic example for this isāand this just happened recently, so this is a true story, here in this officeāI got here early because the fire company told me they needed to come and do a test on the fire system. So 6:30 in the morning I walk through here, only saw one other person in the office and said, āHey, thereās a fire alarm test.ā He said, āOkay, great.ā
So what I didnāt notice was that someone was parking and then they were coming into the front doors about ninety seconds after I warned the one person that the fire alarm would go off. And this woman came running down the hallway in panic and scared, because she and I both heard the same fire alarm, but because I had certain knowledge, I had zero panic and fear, and had no emotion towards the fire alarm whatsoever. And she had incredible emotions towards it, and therefore, she was running, she was trying to save people. She was looking for people to save because she thought that we were going up in flames, and she just couldnāt believe it.
So the point of that is to say when you have something that triggers emotion, you can debate it. If you know that you need to learn something about your emotions, you can debate it, again, to say, āIs there a reason for me to feel any other way? Is there a trigger or consequence that Iām concerned about? Is there any context that I could give myself that could perhaps change the way that I feel currently?ā
And again, they are all methods. Those are all different waysāand we can get into those exercises if you want toābut the point of those exercises is to pause yourself before you push whenever that limbic system is pushing into your vision, near the forefront of your mind, to make that the only way that you can make a decision. Weāre just trying to pause you enough to give you an option to have your other parts of your brain work.
[18:31] JONATHAN: This sort of happened recentlyāI should be careful; I should use third-party examples. But my wife and I were at the beach, and our son was playing near and we were talking with friends. And we were keeping an eye on him, and then all of a sudden he was gone. And so we went into full panic mode. And weāre looking in the water and itās just like it was emotion-driven. Thereās very little rational thought process and the panic mode strikes. Heās not where he was; something terrible must have happened.
And I remember after panicking for a while I finally just stopped. I did the pause, kind of what youāre talking about, and I thought, āOkay, weāve been here before. He knows this place.ā So I told my wife, I said, āGo back up to where weāre staying and check for him there.ā And then I thought, āThereās a little statue that I know he likes. Let me go see maybe if heās gone over there.ā Because we hadnāt thought, āWell, he ran past us,ā because we would have seen him. But I thought, āWell, we might have been engaged in conversation and missed him.ā
And sure enough, as Iām running to the statue, there he is, playing in the sand. And he had run past us, chasing a seagull or something. And it was like, okay, if I just took a minute to think, all right, what are the logical things that could have happened here? But at the same time, God has given us those panic senses to where if something terrible had happened, your body is in that sort of fight, hopefully not flight, but fight mode of I need to do ā¦ I need to, as the example of the lady in the office, sheās trying to save people. That's a good thing if the fire alarm is going off.
But I see what youāre saying in terms of just taking a minute to think, āWhat information do I have? What am I ā¦?ā
Because I think your mind probably shuts down, you get into tunnel vision and that sort of thing.
Letās talk a little bit about IQ versus EQ. And in terms of the way that we look at people, the way we consider talent, children, workplace environment, hiring, all that sort of thing. How do you see the consequences of prioritizing one over the other kind of play out?
[21:04] CLAY: Iād say in the last twenty years or so thereās been a push to raise the importance of EQ. Not to diminish IQ, because itās important to learn, become smart, develop that part of your brain. But this isnāt a choose one over the other. Now, right, is to say we probably missed it when we were only pushing get smarter, get this score on a test, get this acceptance, then youāll be successful.
Harvard Business Review came out and said that there is ā¦ the differences between good leaders and great leaders, that gap. If you were to look in that gap and see what's in there, they would say 80 percent of the contents in that gap are in the emotional intelligence sector. So that's what they would say. Daniel Goleman, whoās one of the most popular voices on emotional intelligence, wrote Primal Leadership and several other books about it over the course of the past thirty years, he would say that if youāre looking to define success and what's going to make you successful in this day and age, he would say 80 percent of the contents of that recipe would also be in emotional intelligence.
And I think what theyāre sayingāthis is me trying to interpret a little bitāagain, itās not to say, āWell, that means only 20 percent is IQ.ā That's not what itās saying. Itās saying we pushed, āBe smart, be smart, be smart, be smartā so hard, that's almost like a get it. Like when you look at people who work hard in high school, go to college, get really good grades, get a competitive job, Iāll bring Google up in a second, but that's that pattern. We said, āIQ, IQ, IQ, IQ.ā And hereās how youāre going to be measured on that, youāre going to get rewarded. Youāre going to get awards, youāre going to get plaques, youāre going to get acceptance letters, youāre going to get scholarships, and youāre going to get a job.ā Thatās the way we measure IQ. We pushed that so much, itās almost like you have to do this. But if you also add extra, what is that extra? Well, 80 percent of that extra, I would say, would be emotional intelligence. So that's where I think that those figures are coming from.
You can google these things if you want to, but they did two what they would call projects where they studied their employees, one almost around 2000, and then twelve to thirteen years later. And they were very surprised, as was everyone else, because they had kind of the best of the best, the brightest people, the Ivy League schools and so on and so forth. And they were trying to differentiate why some teams were doing better than others and why some individuals were doing better than others.
And that's when they started to find out that their term was āsoft skillsā were trumping hard skills. And they were trumping them in the sense that everyone came almost with the same hard skillsāthe STEM degrees that they all came withābut then why were some doing really well and why were some not? And that's when they started to see qualities like coachability, curiosity, emotional intelligence, empathy, listening. Those things were what they saw in both individuals and teams to see where people really are being successful.
So as a parent and vocationally and all those kind of things, itās not that we should depress one in order to elevate the other as much as youāre both working on our ability to become smarter but also your ability to be more emotional.
[25:18] JONATHAN: We see this in Scripture, apart from just fruit of the spirit. What are some of the areas? Certainly thereās a high level of EQ that we would see, for instance, in the Psalms, which maybe explains why David was a good king and others probably were maybe lacking in those areas. Iām trying to think it as it relates to us in the Christian life specifically and itās interesting that you bring up Google. I would think coding or something in the technology field, I wouldnāt think thereās as much relationality in business versus like sales or pastoral ministry or something where you really need those muscles exercised.
But at the same time, itās interesting that what theyāre finding is that even in the technology field, your success has a balanced element to those who have the soft skills, who have elements of emotional intelligence and empathy and all those sorts of things are actually helping in that plus area, as you described it. Help us detangle some of that and just thinking like from a scriptural perspective. How does something like emotional intelligence equip you for being better in all those different areas?
[27:21] CLAY: Sure. Let me stab that one real quick and then come back to some of those biblical things. You know itās interesting. If you look at statistics back when Millennials were in the limelight, Iād say about ten years ago, they would say at that point that 80 percent of them wanted to work in a place of collaboration; that is what they were desiring in a workplace. Those statistics have only gotten higher as Gen Zās are infiltrating now the workplace.
So you see that push for now over half of the workforce, so regardless of what industry youāre going to find, youāre seeing that desire for camaraderie, teamwork, connections. So even post-COVID where a lot of things have gone hybrid, work models, itās still youāre on a Teams meeting, youāre on a Zoom meeting, youāre still interacting.
And so I have several clients, current and former, in that tech space, really smart people, and they do have to code a lot by themselves, but itās when they have to talk to the customer, when they have to talk to the teammate, when they have to interact with the boss that that's where the skills either put them into a place of advantage or [unintelligible]. So itās going to be very difficult for almost any job to be a job where youāre not going to need some type of emotional intelligence skills in order to make yourself successful. Can you find it out there? Sure, thereās just not that many. So most of us are going to find ourselves in positions where if we have emotional intelligence, we will succeed, stand out, excel.
[29:18] JONATHAN: And weāre relational beings. I mean, even by our very creation.
[29:23] CLAY: Yes, absolutely. So that's that little vignette there. So I would sayāyou mentioned the Psalms. I mean, the Psalms are great. I love the rhythm of Psalms. I had to take a class in the Psalms when I was in seminary, I chose to, and it was fantastic. But thereās almost like this general rhythm of David in the Psalms because most of them from what we understand, or at least at the onset, privately written. And obviously, some of them were more for the tribe, the songs, but typically they were private.
So thereās this process of raw, honest emotion about the good, the bad, and the ugly of life (I mean, not all of them are sad) and then some possible outcomes that either were happening or could happen. And then thereās typically, almost in every psalm, this point to which David or the other psalmists get to where they then recognize who they are and who God is, what God might do compared to what they might do, and then thereās a surrender of those things that theyāve felt and seen and wanted and they let go. And so that in and of itself, you could study that for a long time.
Psalm 139, right, itās almost like a classic for emotional intelligence, especially the end, āSearch me and know me,ā right? So thereās self-awareness, I want to be known. āSee if there is any hurtful way in me.ā That's I want to get better. But this is my favorite part is that at the very end he says, āAnd then lead me in the way everlasting.ā The reason that's my favorite part is because of how itās saying the self-help movement gets it wrong when it puts navel-gazing and self-awareness as the end. Just become aware and the longer you can stay aware and the more that you can stay aware, youāre good. It doesnāt mean youāre good.
[31:47] JONATHAN: Thereās no way forward.
[31:50] CLAY: That's correct. Right. So David there itās like, āHey, I want to be aware of myself. I need to be aware of myself.ā The whole psalm is basically saying, āYouāre absolutely aware of me. Iām pretty much under the spotlight.ā I want that awareness and I want you to continue to have that awareness, not so that I can be aware; so that I can then go the ways you want me to go.
When I was at Wesley, we had this phrase we would do first-year time, second-year time, third-year time [unintelligible] our second-year term. And this was the phrase that I took there. It said, āWeāre going to focus on you so that then we can get you out of the way.ā So we wanted to have some quote/unquote navel-gazing time. We did strengths finder for them, we had emotional intelligence for them. Again, where thereās a lot of awareness. But itās not just so that they can know themselves; itās so that they can know where they need help, where they need to get better, where they are doing well so that we can get all that out of the way so that we donāt have to be in the limelight. We can actually then serve others [overlapping voices] and give ourselves over to the things that God wants us to do.
And that's why I [unintelligible]
[33:21] JONATHAN: That's right. No, youāre right on, and that's a helpful sort of thought process through that. I mean, even through that lens of emotional intelligence. We live in a day and age where everything is volatile, people are triggered by anything and everything. And then you add in a layer of social media or anonymity through the computer, which sort of exacerbates our problem. How do we develop greater emotional resilience and self-control? How do we as believers navigate that terrain.
[34:11] CLAY: Huge thought there for sure. Iāll just take one swing at it, because that'sā
[34:20] JONATHAN: Weāll do a five-part episode.
[34:23] CLAY: Yeah, that's a big one. Iāll go real technical in terms of emotional intelligence [unintelligible]. In the assessment that Iām trained in and I like to administer to people, itās got subsets. So itās got fifteen of them. Two of them, I think, speak to some of this. One of them is flexibility. And flexibility and that subset is when things change, like youāve decided something is going one way but now something out of your control has changed it, how do you respond?
On the other side of that coin, the next thing we administer is stress tolerance. Stress tolerance is you want things to change desperately and theyāre not. Theyāre stuck. [unintelligible] And so in those two, when I look at volatility of our current culture and social media, itās you see a plan so easily in those two regards. Someone has an opinion, someone has the other one, you canāt change their opinion, so what are you going to do about it? Nowadays, we just trash the other person.
[35:52] JONATHAN: Ad hominem, yeah.
[35:54] CLAY: That's our response. On the other side, when we had a plan and now everything has changed and we didnāt get to choose that, how do we respond? We blame everybody. We have to find someone to blame because we think that that's going to make it better. Right now we look for someone to blame instead of moving into that place of resilience and grit and realizing that not everything is going to go our way. So part of that emotional intelligence, when you look at how you become flexible, become better at stress tolerance.
A huge part of it is just accepting the fact that things are not always going to be good; things are not always going to go your way; and that is everybodyās life. You want to take it to a biblical place, then you go back to the words of Jesus where He said, āIn this world youāll have trouble.ā Heās already told you. And everybodyās response to it. He gives you the clue, if youāre doing it from a Christian perspective, He says, āBut I have overcome the world,ā meaning that your perspective is going to change how you respond to those situations. If the weight of the world is on that moment, you know, itāll crush you. But if you realize that that's not the weight of the world, regardless of the situation, even if itās going to hurt, those kind of things are going to take a bite out of you, it gives you the ability to realize that you can recover, you can make it through it.
And that's a key part, I think, in all of that. Iāll give you an example, a real practical example. I use this with my kids, but I also use this with adults for sure. I use it with myself. Ask myself this all the time. I canāt remember where I came up with this, but so this is the question when youāre faced with a situation that's hard, heavy, frustrating, whatever it is, and you have the option of choosing an emotional, unintelligent response, is this. This is the question I ask. Is this going to be in your book?
I can say that to my kids, and they know exactly what Iām talking about. If they donāt know what Iām talking about, then I give them this context. At the end of your life, you get two hundred pages to write your autobiography. This situation right now, is this a chapter? Is this a page? Is this a paragraph? Is this a sentence? Or is it on the editing floor? And almost always this will be on the editing floor. And so if itās on the editing floor, then why are we treating it like itās a chapter? And that's the context. So that's the question I ask myself, and I give it to my kids as well and that's what I tell my people at my office.
Again, it gives you pause. That's the whole point of this is to pause. But the whole idea of emotional intelligence is this, and how they came up with this, I donāt know. People smarter than me. I would say this: that you have six seconds to choose your emotional intelligence response, meaning that your brain likes to default to habits, and so youāll habitually just respond. You think about traffic. Any time I see traffic, I get angry, so shoulders go up, eyebrows go down, my tone changes, whatever, itās just your habit. Youāre choosing it, you just didnāt realize that your brain is in default into the choice. Youāre really not giving yourself that option.
But the six seconds comes into play in the sense of you can actually choose to go a different path. Weāre talking about neural paths. You can choose a different neural pathway. Your brain would prefer to go the habitual route because then it doesnāt have to work that hard. So in all of these things, what weāre trying to do is to give ourselves pause enough to alert ourselves that weāre probably about to choose a default that is not the best choice, and can we train ourselves to a point where we say, ah, not to do this, probably should do this.
It's the train tracks, shifting from one track to another. That's really what weāre trying to do in any exercise that we do in emotional intelligence is to pause and then give that new skill an opportunity to get some [unintelligible] and get some legs [unintelligible]
[41:18] JONATHAN: And itās funny, because in order to get to that position, you have to have self-awareness. You have to be aware that what's going on isāand Iām just even putting myself in situations where Iām like, oh, that is absolutely my mental state goes to a default position. Oh, this happened and I know that this is my reaction. And youāre right; sometimes itās like I donāt even think about it. Itās just this is just what I do.
It makes me think of sort of the enneagram thing, well, that's just who I am. Iām a fill-in-the-number, but thereās no, okay, so is that your paradigm? Is that who you are and that defines you? Or are you at a position to where you can challenge yourself, and to your point, take a pause and consider, okay, do I have other options here? I absolutely do. Which is really, if you think about it from a gospel perspective, itās like do I have to keep choosing law over injustice for people over whatever situation? Or at what point do I choose to show grace and mercy, which by definition are undeserved for those people?
And that's really where the gospel message comes in, because if God operated under our own default paradigm, if He was created in our image, then it would be law-justice, law-justice all day every day. But grace and mercy are so alien to us, and that's the beauty of Christās work and what He has done.
Youāve shared a lot of really great and helpful stories, but could you give us some examples of applied EQ principles ināand Iām going to give you three different things, and then Iāll remind you of them if you canāt remember. So one for parenting, two, the workplace, and three, the church. So weāll start with parenting.
[43:32] CLAY: Iāll be as practical and as vulnerable as I can. What weāre trying to teachāweāve got six kids, a major focus for us right now is just empathy, how to put yourself in someone elseās shoes. A funny but revealing story is several years ago my wife was crying about a certain matter. One of my sonsā
[44:02] JONATHAN: Name redacted.
[44:05] CLAY: Weāll keep it redacted. One of my sons came in and saw her and immediately started crying. And then another one of my sons came in and looked at his brother and said, āWhy are you crying?ā And he said, āIām crying because sheās crying.ā And then that brother who was not crying was like, āThat's the weirdest thing Iāve ever seen.ā
[44:28] JONATHAN: That doesnāt make sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CLAY: In general, we all have starting points, and those starting points have been formed and fashioned by our personality, our family systems, I mean all of these things. So that's why I love taking these type of assessments, because they show you where youāre starting from. Then you get to know where you need to go. So again, take Son A in that story. Empathy is already off the charts. I mean, just his starting point is heās probably at an A-. Thereās one little uptick and heās perfect.
The other son probably at a D or F in that area. He really needs to work on it. And that was me when I took my first assessment of emotional intelligence ten years ago, very low empathy. Iāve spent several months, almost half a year, keeping an empathy log so I can start to train my brain to think about someone elseās emotions. And it got much better, but itās something I really had to learn.
In parenting, weāre saying regardless of your starting point, this is something that matters. It matters biblical standpoint, itās truly what Jesus did and still does. It, from an interpersonal standpoint, if you canāt put yourself in someone elseās shoes, that's going to be very difficult for you to have compassion on someone and serve someone to even care when theyāre not in alignment of what you want.
So we have just said this matters. So we are consistently asking our kids when they say something about one of their siblings, āHow do you think so-and-so feels about this? Where are they in this story?ā So that's our skill right now, so itās above any other skills that weāre trying to get. One, as a family of eight, weāre hoping to do that well. If we can, have empathy, so weāre working on that. When I think about our kids being released into the wild, and if they carry that skill with them, it will carry them a long way, regardless of what they do. And I donāt need them to get recognized for it in the long way in the sense that they will do well if they do right by people.
[47:29] JONATHAN: Theyāll be a good friend.
[47:31] CLAY: Absolutely. So huge piece in that one, and that's what weāve worked with there. In terms of business, I would say the really big piece of business is if you can listen, understand, and then reinterpret what youāve heard to other people, you canāt help but be successful, because people will flock to you because of your ability to do that. I call it the meeting after the meeting in business. And that's someone, we have a meeting and then something is lost in translation and somethingās then misinterpreted and then that person is, āThat's not what is said. That's not what I meant at all.ā And then now they have to go have a meeting about that meeting.
[48:29] JONATHAN: Iāve been in those.
[48:30] CLAY: Youāve been in those. Weāve all been in those. So now youāre having a meeting about a meeting and then youāre going to have to leave that meeting and have another meeting in order to let everybody else know what happened in that meeting after the meeting that should have happened in the meeting. And so that differentiator of active listening, being able to communicate empathetically, being able to communicate clearly. You know in emotional intelligence we would talk about emotional self-expression, to be able to clearly say what youāre feeling, right? You can see that every day almost in practical experiences in yourself where youāve got your typical passive-aggressive, bless you heart type whoās lying through their teeth. They donāt have any blessings for you, but that's what they say. So that type of differentiator in the business sector is massive, itās just huge, huge.
Tell me the third category.
[49:40] JONATHAN: The church.
[49:42] CLAY: The church, yes. The church, the church, the church. Oh man, this one and a lot of different other places for this one. Iāll pick one, and maybe itās probably not the most popular one, I was in ministry for, well, ran it for eighteen years and was in almost twenty years, for nineteen years. Had a lot of friends in ministry. And to see where they are now, I would say that ability to handle emotions, not just their own but other peopleās, burden-bearing perhaps the more specific term, and then to be able to handle the stress of that, to have mechanisms to keep that at bay. The primary term youāre hearing these days is burnout.
Burnout to me is when someone and they have had a moral failure, theyāve stolen money from the church, theyāve ripped their kidsā lives apart, that's not good. But typically what you see before burnoutāwhen we say burnout, like āHey, I just canāt do this anymore,ā now theyāre completely unhealthy and that's going into sexual improprieties, that's going into financial improprieties, that's going into the idea of power and where you're getting your validity and things from. So that's what you typically see before the engine hits failure and we get to see it.
And so from that emotional intelligence standpoint, youāre thinking about really self-control. In emotional intelligence itās called āimpulse control.ā Can you have a desire, and understand it, and then make the right decision? That's one of the fifteen subsets that we look at. And if you look at people in ministry, itās so easy to get away with so many things for too long of a time, and it really comes back to [unintelligible] Scripture because [unintelligible] until itās too late. So I think impulse control is real big, again in EQ, for the church to say, āHey, you can spend time alone with this person, you could charge this to the credit card, you could do a lot of things [unintelligible] and theyāre going to believe what you say.ā [Overlapping voices]
[52:43] JONATHAN: So even in thinking about each of those ones youāve just given us for children (or parenting, rather), workplace, church, itās interesting because all of those, Iām just thinking on the side of this in terms of protecting yourselfānot protecting yourself in terms of I want to get away with this, but I want to prevent not having empathy. I want to be able to listen to someone and interpret and relay it back correctly to them. I want to be able to have impulse control. Those all involve, I mean, they are skills of the individual, but at the same time, it requires the assistance of others, I think. Itās a very communalāwhich, of course, emotional intelligence is about relating with others and self. And so itās interesting in thinking about the way youāve described or given those examples how much, if youāre setting up safeguards or even beyond safeguards youāre actually wanting to grow and develop in those skills, it requires community, it requires other around you who are committed to the same goals, so to speak. So in your work, do youāsorry, this is like bucketing rain our here. A hurricane is coming to Athens. Are youādo you encourage people to work these things out, to develop these skills, within a communal setting, accountability levels? And my powerās just gone off. Weāre still connected, so weāll just keep going.
[54:42] CLAY: Absolutely. I think theāI would encourage every person to have a communal component to every phase of emotional intelligence [unintelligible]. The assessment piece, you can take one by yourself on your computer and get a score and never share it with anyone what you scored and it would never be as effective as if you shared it.
[55:05] JONATHAN: Itās the navel-gazing example you gave earlier, self-help.
[55:09] CLAY: Weāre trying to gauge our self-awareness and weāre our only judges, and what have we done? So that's why when I do these assessments, my favorite one to do is the 360, because then youāve got different people from all different parts of your life that are assessing you. So the assessment piece has to be in community, right? The understanding the good and the bad has to be verified in community.
One of the things that we do when I take people through this coaching, especially when they come in for the 360, is to look at what we call the gap analysis. And the cool thing about the gap analysis is youāll see it on both sides of the coin. So when people say they have blind spots, what they typically means is letās say Iām a person with a blind spot. I almost always say that person thinks that theyāre here and theyāre actually here. They think theyāre betterāwhich could be a blind spot.
On the slip side, a blind spot is that this person thinks that he or she is here and actually theyāre much higher, theyāre here. So they have a lower self-awareness or self-image of themselves in this area than actually what's coming out of them. So you get to see both sides of the gaps. Where are you doing better than youāre actually aware of and where you actually do worse? So that has to be in community.
And then as you work them out and work on the skills, youāre going to have to have people to work them out with and then people to let you know how youāre doing. Every phase has to be in community.
[56:56] JONATHAN: Iām sure people are listening to this and thinking, āI know someone who needs help with this.ā Is it a subject where itās like, āHey, I sent you a little questionnaire you can fill out to see all your blind spotsā? How do you broach the subject withāis it like, āHey, Iām working on some self-improvement stuff. Would you want to do this with me?ā How do you find that others engage their colleagues, friends, family members, whatever, to see this, to have some self-awareness and bring it to the forefront without crushing them or coming across judgmental, etc.?
[57:42] CLAY: Yeah, itās if youāre trying to inspireāIāll use that termāsomeone else to do it, yeah, that's ā¦ Thereās not just one way, because you can have a relationship where you can sayā
[57:56] JONATHAN: And it depends on the person.
[57:58] CLAY: Depends on the person. I will get called in to work with people who their bosses are saying, āYou have to do this.ā They have no choice. And then thereās other people who would say, āHey, I want to bring this up to my husband. How should I do that?ā And they have to do it in a much more nuanced way. So I would definitely encourage people to get to that point where they can be honest. If you can be honest with that person, and this isnāt to say, Youāre wrong, youāre broken, youāre damaged,ā as much as to say, āThese are skills that both of us or all of us should learn, can we do this together?ā Because itās not, again, Iām certified in emotional intelligence and I teach it and coach it, but I still have to live it or I wonāt be emotionally intelligent. So no one arrives. You learn it, but you still have to do it. So everyone can join in. And that's what I would say the best approach to other people is to say, āHey, letās do this together.ā Because no one can say, āHey, I hope you get to this point.ā
[59:13] JONATHAN: When you're like me, then youāve arrived. Well, Clay, this has been such a big help for me just even in understanding the neurological things, the neurological pathways and thinking about my own mental habits that have come in play, thinking about self-awareness, other awareness. I think these are just such important factors. We see them through Scripture. We know the heart of God. We see the sovereignty of God over all things. We can have hope in Him. And just having an awareness of this, I think, helps us to serve the body, to serve the lost in such helpful ways. And so Iām grateful for your training and your expertise in this area, and Iām just grateful that you were able to take the time to join us on Candid Conversations.
[01:00:13] CLAY: Glad to have done it. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
[01:00:15] JONATHAN: Of course. God bless.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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In the past few years, we have seen the rise of the public debate around gender and transgender. What makes a man a man and a woman a woman? Is this a new debate or an ancient one?
Jonathan Youssef welcomes Claire and Rob Smith from Sydney, Australia to Candid Conversations. Rob Smith lectures in theology, ethics, and music ministry at Sydney Missionary & Bible College. He also serves as the Assistant Director of Ministry Training and Development for the Anglican Diocese of Sydney. He is currently undertaking doctoral studies in the theology of sex and gender.
Claire Smith is a writer and women's bible teacher. She is a nurse by background. She has a Ph.D. in New Testament from Moore Theological College and is the author of God's Good Design: What the Bible Really Says About Men and Women.
Claire and Rob are members of St. Andrew's Anglican Cathedral in Sydney and have contributed to Desiring God and The Gospel Coalition (Claire Smith and Rob Smith).
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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In this episode of Candid, Jonathan welcomes Tyler Van Halteren, a man with a deep-rooted commitment to enriching the lives of children and youth through the power of Christian faith and storytelling. Tyler, a Master's Divinity graduate from the Master's Seminary, has dedicated most of his life to sharing Christ's teachings and the Bible's wisdom through storytelling.
From serving as an Associate Pastor at Gorrie Bible Fellowship in his home country of Canada to teaching at Phnom Penh Bible School in Cambodia, Tyler's journey has been one of service and exploration. But the profound impact of 20-minute bedtime stories on his son sparked an innovative idea in him - why not blend the charm of bedtime stories with enduring lessons from the Bible?
Taking up this challenge, Tyler founded Lithos Kids in 2020. His venture was no less than a mission to transform the world through biblically faithful and beautifully illustrated children's books. The launch of his first book, Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, on Kickstarter was a resounding success, exceeding its funding goal by 500%. It quickly became a treasured children's book, and Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, Volume 2, and Volume 3 was released shortly after.
Now, as a father and an author, he continues his mission from southern Ontario, Canada, where he resides with his growing family.
Join us as we dive into this inspiring journey with Tyler, discussing the importance of spiritual mentorship, the creative process behind his illustrated books, and his vision for instilling Christian values in young minds.
This is an episode you don't want to miss, especially if you're a parent, an educator, or anyone interested in spiritual growth and innovative approaches to faith-based education. Be sure to tune in!
Books by Tyler Van Halteren:
Little Pilgrim's Big Journey Volume 1
Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, Volume 2
Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, Volume 3
Kingdom of God Storybook Bible
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 252: How 20 Minutes Can Impact Your Child's Spirituality: Tyler Van Halteren (Reprise)
JONATHAN: Tyler, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[02:28] TYLER: Yeah, thanks, Jonathan. Itās a joy to be here.
[02:31] JONATHAN: Well, tell us a little bit about your background, upbringing, and then weāll transition into how you got into writing and producing kidsā literature.
[02:43] TYLER: By Godās grace, I came from a Christian home. But one of the most significant moments, and I guess most relevant moments to this interview, was when I was beginning to explore the faith more seriously, not just walking in my parentsā shoes but actually considering the weight of eternity, heaven, hell, my own faith, my own walk with God, and in that time I found an old 1975 version of Pilgrimās Progress, paperback, 95 cents, that was given to my dad when he was about that age, about 15, and it just sat on the shelf. So I picked it up, read it, and thatās the first memory that I have of understanding the Christian life and wanting to follow Christ. Thatās the first book I remember reading in that season.
So that led, by Godās grace, to a hunger for His Word, for sharing His Word, and then through various camps I had a great experience in high school. Our Christian high school was connected to a childrenās camp. And so I was able to teach there and saw a measure of gifting, a desire to teach, and then went on to Masterās Seminary and then to youth pastor Cambodia. In the midst of all that, had some kids along the way and then started brewing some of these book ideas.
[04:07] JONATHAN: Tell me ... You just sort of lobbed Cambodia into that history. Tell us a little bit about that.
[04:18] TYLER: Yeah, for about 10 years before that, my goal and desire and prayer was to go into missions. And so we set the course for that through seminary, and then even as I joined my church there was a sense of telling them weāre going to be here five years and then we want to be sent out to the mission field. So we went. The goal was to teach the Bible at a Bible school there to college students. Had some other cool opportunities, like with some friends had started childrenās programs, so Iād go to villages and there would be 30 kids that would just show up, 30 or 40 Buddhist kids would just come. And they listened to some English teaching, some Bible teaching, and just really neat.
But in the midst of all that, COVID happened and that shut a lot of missions down. But thankfully I was able to finish the Little Pilgrims book during that time. And then also during that time, I started having some significant health issues and that sort of ended upāa variety of numbness and extreme fatigue that kind of landed us back in Canada, but trusting Godās providence in all that and encouraged now to see there are some of our books being translated into already in Spanish, but some being considered for the Cambodian language, Khmer language. So there is French, Vietnamese, so encouraged to see how Godās continuing that missionary desire through these books.
[05:44] JONATHAN: Unbelievable. Okay, so youāve shared with us that it was Bunyanās Pilgrimās Progress that set you on a particular path. Iām assuming thatās the connection to wanting to retell it through a childās perspective. Tell us a little bit about how those pieces came together.
[06:08] TYLER: Yeah, it was a neat few things that came together. So Iāve always had an entrepreneurial bent, always a desire for that. Buying and selling, doing different things. Little businesses on the side. And that gave a skill set that when my son was about three or four I started looking for, oh, is there a good childrenās version of Pilgrimās Progress? And at the time when I looked around, the only version was a 1985 one, Dangerous Journey. I bought that, opened it, and it was the first time Iāve opened a book and my son has sort of screamed and cried in terror at the illustrations. The illustrations were soā
[06:53] JONATHAN: I have been there. Especially for a three- and four-year-old.
[07:00] TYLER: Yes, absolutely terrifying.
[07:01] JONATHAN: Hereās the Christian faith, my child.
[07:05] TYLER: Yeah, I saw that, and I thought, Okay, thereās got to be a way to do a better version, especially for younger kids.
[07:13] JONATHAN: I will say, I have seen one of theāI think itās more for teenage readers, maybe, and it is very graphic. Apollyon the dragon is very scary and menacing. And youāre right, thereās a lotāI mean, thatās the way Bunyan wrote it, right? I mean, it is dramatic, very. But when youāre thinking about little ones, youāve got to tone some of that down so theyāre not actually terrified but wrestling with the core issues. And I feel like your book does that so well.
[07:46] TYLER: Yeah, that was a real delight and surprise. I was writing with my son, three or four years old, in mind. And we read it 20, 30 times together in the process of writing it, and that was all super fun as we got new illustrations and as we pieced things together to see his excitement and to see things, Gospel truths click for him in that journey.
But Iām coming into this somewhat naĆÆve in a sense. I had no real understanding of the publishing industry and just had this goal. Write this as well as I can, with really great illustrations, for my four-year-old son. And then for whatever reason, the Lordās taken that, and it seems to have hit that target with a lot of families who say similar things, that these truths are connecting in a special way.
[08:40] JONATHAN: Well, and letās talk about that. So as a parent, it is hard to find really goodāand I know itās out there and Iāve got a lot of them. But thereās not a lot of really great Christian childrenās books. Itās either for an age up, as we just talked about, or itās kind of delves into more of a moralistic, you know, do this, behave this way, obedienceāwhich are true things, but there are so many better, deeper truths that we need to expose our kids to. I think thereās a longing of parentsā
I mean, I hear it from moms all the time, āHey, if you can think of a kidsā book and write it, like go for it.ā Because thereās a real need for that, especially at those young, really vulnerable ages, age category.
[09:44] TYLER: Yeah, and weāve seen a growing hunger in people, and through our social media and connecting with different people that there is this real longing for those kind of resources, and thatās been an exciting part, too, seeing how much this has resonated with parents, this kind of idea. And thereās other publishers that are doing some really great, like probably in the last five years really thereās been almost a resurgence of good, solid books, Gospel-centered books. But before that it was pretty dismal, and that was about the time I started writing was when I was looking around and saying, āOkay, how do we get really good Gospel-centered books that hit the core of these issues for kids?ā
And the fun part of that has been the allegory idea of Bunyanās allegory and seeing how much thatās resonated with people.
[10:30] JONATHAN: So letās talk about just the impact I mean, itās obviously a tradition within ... itās been around forever, right? Either storytelling with your children before bed, or at a particular time, and just the impact that that has of, one, reading, just reading comprehension, storytelling, kidsā abilities to have an imagination and picture things. Have you done any kind of research into that I mean, even in your own life and seeing the way that it relates with your own children?
[11:09] TYLER: Yeah, thatās one of the cool things, I think, for a lot of families, the question of family discipleship, family devotions, those kind of things come up, and itās challenging in our day and age. Generally, weāre pretty busy people and probably more busy than we need to be, so itās hard to set aside a time. And sometimes itās hard to get kids that arenāt wiggling during that time, or moving around, or asking, āOkay, when is it over? When is it over?ā
[11:36] JONATHAN: You need to draw them in, right?
[11:38] TYLER: Yeah. So for my personal life it was bedtime. They kids knew, okay, we can read. It became part of the routine. And they are also glad because that time theyāre winding down and they know theyāre not going to bed yet, so theyāre getting a little extension. And so that just became a very simple, practical tool for me. Hey, maybe I canāt do X, Y and Z with my kids, but 15 minutes before bed, thatās a pretty easy thing to do. And Iām seeing how that impacted my son was a real treat and a joy.
Iām thinking of our book, seeing Christian by the cross, his burden falling off, and him saying to me, āYeah, God ...ā Or āDad, thatās what God does. He removes our burden of sin.ā I remember reading David Helmsā Big Picture Bible, and him seeing Jesus on the cross and saying, āI want to follow Jesus. I want to be saved from my sin. I want to know Jesus.ā
[12:42] JONATHAN: Thatās an iconic scene, isnāt it? Bunyanās ... I mean, even people who havenāt read the book are at least somewhat familiar with the scene of his burden falling off his back as he stands at the cross. Itās such a picturesque scene. You have talked about how heās recognizing some of these things. What are the other things that are coming through the eye of the child as parents and grandparents are probably listening to this and thinking about weāre trying to help formulate in our children and what theyāre getting from those 15 minutes before bed.
[13:23] TYLER: Yeah, I think a big one Iāve seen, and Iāve heard from a lot of families, is the reality of death and eternity. And I canāt think of many kidsā books that hit that on the nose.
[13:38] JONATHAN: Yeah, itās not coming up with regularity, thatās for sure.
[13:40] TYLER: Yeah, yeah. So thatās not been dodged or snuck in. But reality is ... Yeah, people die. Kids are wrestling with some of these hard truths. They have some of these hard questions and they want answers to them. And so having this, again, the beauty of allegory are these spiritual truths told through images. The River of Death, the idea of someone crossing the River of Death, the sorrow of that and yet the joy of that for believers who enter the kingās city, the celestial city.
Iāve heard some very, very sweet stories from people and gotten emails that have brought me to tears where someoneās reading this with their child. Their child is going through cancer and facing death, and that River of Death bringing such a comfort both to the child, the parents, siblings. And for us, when we were in Cambodia, my son would bring that up often. Because weād left family behind and now weāre going on this journey, in a sense, and thatās all done in light of eternity. So these metaphors of the celestial city and living for the kingās kingdom and things like that were all very helpful.
And then one other story from Cambodia, which was seeing the surprise in Cambodian parents, and especially dads, that I would read to my kids for 15 minutes before bed. To me, it seemed like an obvious things. To them, it was very foreign, in literally true sense. But they were surprised. āYou do that with your kids?ā
And I said, āOh, you donāt?ā
[15:20] JONATHAN: Culture shock there.
[15:21] TYLER: Yeah, and they said, āNo, no. They go to bed when they go to bed, and weāre not too involved with that.ā
I said, āOh, you should try it.ā And some of them... one of the pastors could speak English, and I gave him some copies of the book. And he read it and I remember since weāve left he messaged me saying, āWe still do that every night. We still read to our daughter before bed. And weāve gone through these books these many times and thank you for this.ā
I just thought that was a neat way the Lord used that.
[15:53] JONATHAN: So you started with a Kickstarter fundraiser and you blew through your numbers on that. Tell us a little bit about that.
[16:02] TYLER: Yeah, so again this was all kind of a leap of faith and partly the way Godās wired me, willing to take a risk in that sense. So let people know this book was coming out and just kind of asked friends and family to share as widely as they could on social media and kind of leading towards this Kickstarter. So we launched, and then I was just absolutely shocked as it was within the first hour we far surpassed our initial goal. And just watching the numbers just sort of fly in was a shock and delight.
[16:43] JONATHAN: It looks like you got about 500 percent of your funding. So if you were wondering if that was a need for people, that certainly made its case.
[16:56] TYLER: Yes, it was awesome to see. Okay, we put all this work in and got it ready, and then, oh yes, this does resonate with other people. Other people are hungry for this kind of thing. And weāve seen that tenfold since then.
[17:08] JONATHAN: Youāve talked about how Bunyanās use of allegory helps bring forth great truths through imagery and picture. Parents are always trying to communicate the Gospel in a way for children at different ages and stages to understand. But sometimes we parents can sometimes if they donāt have theological degrees like you and I, they can be overwhelmedāthough having a theological degree doesnāt necessarily help you in this category. It's not like how to teach children is one of the classes we get.
But how do you take complex truths and break them down for children? This is one of the primary ways of doing that. But just for you as a dad of young ones, what are some of the other methodologies that you use for breaking that down for kids, big concepts that come, whether itās through Scripture or spiritual conversation or whatever it is. What other methodology do you use in an effective way?
[18:21] TYLER: Yeah, yeah. A lot of at least homeschoolers talk about living books, like this idea of living books being an engaging way to teach ideas. And thatās for anythingāscience, et ceteraāto children. And allegories present this idea of a living book, which means truth is coming through in a very natural sort of conversational way. And again, I feel like Bunyan is just the master of that. So what a privilege to follow in his footsteps and toā
[18:50] JONATHAN: And a good thing he was in prison, right?
[18:53] TYLER: He had a very vivid imagination, and the results of just certain scenes ... And he had such a deep theology and understanding of Godās Word. So I love in Part 2, which is less known (his original Part 2) thereās a scene where theyāre walking by the cross with Great-heart, and it just goes into four or five pages on pretty technical like substitutionary atonement. But he does it in a way thatās so helpful and clear, and so I loved when I was going through Part 2 to take a piece of that and just simplify it. They just go at the cross and itās a very clear explanation of what it means that the Kingās Son died in our place. He took our sin. He gave us his righteousness.
And then that, combined with different images of Christianās filthy clothes are removed, his burden is removed. So things like that I found super helpful. And then another big piece is that kids, especially in this generation, are visual, becoming increasingly more visual learners, so thatās our big slogan, Biblically Faithful, Beautifully Crafted. And the idea is to have these really vivid, beautiful illustrations that draw kids in.
[20:19] JONATHAN: But they arenāt too graphic.
[20:20] TYLER: Yes, yes. That are age appropriate. And then also to have text thatās sort of clear, deep but simple and not overwhelming, and to pair that up well. We visited a friendās house, and they had their range of kids from two to seven, and they had all the books out. They said, āWe swear weāre not just...ā
[20:44] JONATHAN: Not for you.
[20:45] TYLER: ā... because youāre here.ā
[20:48] JONATHAN: Itās normally like this. Well, youād find that at our house, too. Weāve got both book 1 and 2 wide open on some page.
[20:55] TYLER: Thatās awesome. And I will see them, just the kids were flipping through the pictures. Like they couldnāt read yet, butā
[21:03] JONATHAN: But they can remember the story associated with the picture, yeah.
[21:08] TYLER: And they just loved flipping through it and looking. And they stare at all the details. And so I think thatās another aspect that I found very helpful is just these vivid images in books.
[21:18] JONATHAN: Apart from story time with your kids, are there rhythms or patterns or activities that you try and work in to family time that youāve found successful at your home?
[21:34] TYLER: Yeah, I wish I could have more to say. The story book has sort of been my big main one. The other wasā
[21:42] JONATHAN: And your big emphasis for sure.
[21:44] TYLER: But the other has been sort of the Deuteronomy type of while you are going, while you are walking by the way to instruct your kids in these things. So where heās just saying, āWrite it on your doorstops. Write it on ...ā Like everywhere youāre going, just have these moments. So where kids are inquisitive, kids ask. Itās a crazy amount of questions per day, I think when you actually ... when youāve done studies of that, Iām sure.
But if youāre feeding them these biblical things, then theyāre going to have questions about biblical things that come up naturally. Which was another little piece. I mean, like maybe my dad [unintelligible] or something. Weād always have at nighttime, it would be like, āOh, you can watch a show, but itās going to be a Bible show.ā
I know different families have different rhythms and some donāt like shows and some like shows. But first it was an easy switch to just say, āYou want to watch Paw Patrol. Instead, letās watch something else.ā And a lot of those ended up being moralistic, as we kind of said. But at least itās touching on biblical things.
[22:51] JONATHAN: Well, and you're able to elaborate from that and helpfully redirect them towards a cross-centric faith instead of a duty sort of centrism.
[23:07] TYLER: Yeah, definitely. And so those have led to a neat where theyāre just thinking about things and things are resonating. And so my grandma had died last year, and my son said, āCan we call her?ā Like after she died. āCan we video call her because I want to see God? Because sheās with God.ā And so I was like, oh, thatās such an interesting ...
[23:33] JONATHAN: Heās got a deep truth with some confusion.
[23:38] TYLER: āSheās in the presence of God, why wouldnāt she have her cell phone? We used to call her. Now canāt we call her now?ā So then you just have these neat opportunities when youāre just there. Thereās the input, intentional biblical input, and then theyāre going to be inquisitive, asking questions through the day as we experience ... āWhy does this family do that? Why does my friend have a mom but no dad around?ā Or āWhy does this cousin not believe in Jesus?ā and things like that.
[24:12] JONATHAN: Yeah. Having kids keeps you on your toes. And if youāre a believing family, then thereās a lot of questions that I think even the greatest of us could stumble over and so you really need to be filling your own mind with helpful resources. You need to be in the Word and seeking to grow in understanding and knowledge and faith and bearing that fruit of the Spirit. Thereās, you know, as we kind of laughed about, I mean, kids ask a ridiculous amount of questions. And thereās times where I think sometimes Iām like, āIām done. Done answering your questions. I donāt want to do this anymore.ā
And thatās typical selfish mentality of this is about me and not you. But you know, you kind of flip the script a little bit and start thinking, Okay, this could be a really great opportunity for them. And in all their questions thereās usually something underlying all of that. Fear, doubt, whatever it is. Or sometimes it is just curiosity. So itās important, I think, for parents to be as available as humanly possible, and really thinking through those things.
And I think sometimes people are afraid. What if I donāt know the answer? Then Iām going to fail my child, or whatever it is. And itās like, you know, kids donāt think in that category necessarily. I think itās actually quite biblical to say, āYou know what? Youāre asking really good questions. Why donāt we look at this together? Why donāt we kind of use this as an opportunity to show that mom and dad donāt know everything, and theyāre seeking to grow just like you are?ā
So tell us a little bit about the Kingdom of God story books. This is another project that youāve done. I donāt know if it was before or after Little Pilgrim, Big Journey, but tell us a little bit about that.
[26:12] TYLER: That was after the Pilgrim book, so that was six or seven months ago those landed. And that was a big project, and an excitingā
[26:22] JONATHAN: Yeah, taking Old and New Testament, thatās a big undertaking.
[26:28] TYLER: That was the most challenging book Iāve written, obviously, because you want to do honor to Godās Word and to be faithful. And initially it was going to be birdās eye overview. So I thought 70 pages and weāll touch on seven different kind of key moments that highlight the kingdom through the Bible. And then as I got into it, I said, Oh, itās still missing ... like thereās something ...
[26:53] JONATHAN: Itās always something.
[26:54] TYLER: ... in between these. And so that grew to 140, and then 280, and then all of a sudden itāsā
[27:01] JONATHAN: Itās summer reading.
[27:03] TYLER: Yeah, suddenly itās a 600-page fully illustrated 45-chapter thing. And the two big goals were one was to incorporate biblical theology, which was to have these themes that are tied through, woven through from Genesis to Revelation, and so the kingdom is one of those big themes. And thereās many others. So that was an exciting challenge. And then seeing prophecies of the King to come in the Old Testament. Thereās so many of those. So to highlight those in a very vivid and helpful way was an exciting piece of that. And then just to give a clear understanding of Godās kingdom.
As Jesus said, āThe Kingdom of God is now in your midst.ā He said, āI have come for this purpose: to proclaim the Kingdom of God.ā So if thatās His understanding, Heās saying, āFor me to come and fulfill what God has promised is to display myself as the King of Godās kingdom,ā which He saw as clearly foreshadowed and set up in the Old Testament. So doing that in a kind of full way that knits. The goal was to sort of be seamless between each chapter and between each kind of scene or book.
And the summary of it was Godās presence, Godās people, in Godās place, through Godās promise. And each chapter kind of has a summary in that way to connect those things.
[28:28] JONATHAN: Ah, thatās great. Books on the horizon. I think you have a third Pilgrimās Progress book coming out. Little Pilgrim, Big Journey, I should call it. I keep calling it Pilgrimās Progress.
[28:38] TYLER: Thatās okay. Yeah, Part 3, which Iām excited about, itās about the two brothers, Christianās brothers. They saw their sister cross the River of Death and the king said it was not time for them to come yet. And I thought that was kind of a neat way to extend the allegory. Because some kids have viewed it, okay, weāre going across this journey and then we get to death and then itās done. And thereās this bigger picture of mission and evangelism and service. So kind of a follow-up to that. This idea is the king, instead of calling them to cross the River of Death, calls them to go back to their hometown, back to the cities, to proclaim the Gospel and to proclaim that the kingdom is coming. And so these brothers go and they experience the ideas of the Great Commission, missions, evangelism.
[29:29] JONATHAN: Yeah, theyāve taken the mantle from Evangelist.
[29:34] TYLER: Yeah. Yeah, so itās kind of an exciting. As even Evangelist and Great-heart pass, they say, over the River of Death, they say, āYou take my sword. You go on.ā And so I think thatās a neat challenge and call for kids that have professed faith in Christ now to go back to serve, to spread the Gospel to their friends. And so Iām excited about that book.
And then thereās also. Our tribute to Bunyan was a legacy edition of the Pilgrimās Progress, so just a full, unabridged version more geared towards adults or older kids, teens. And has kind of 150 of the vintage illustrations and itās just a real treat to read.
[30:17] JONATHAN: Well, my son will be excited for the third. Because he did ask why are Christianaās brothers stuck on the other side of the river. And so I can give him good news that the third one is coming. This is great. What a helpful conversation. Weāre going to put links for your website and all your books in our show notes. So those of you who are listening, I do recommend these. These are just fantastic. The illustrations are beautiful, they are age appropriate. The story brings through great truths and youāll have great questions.
You do have questions that you ask. My son loves asking questions, and he loves answering questions as well. And so the fact that each chapter has questions that are askedāand theyāre not just recalling information, but there is some application in there as well, which really kind of speaks ... You know, because kids want to have understanding and then kind of relay that back to you. So I think thatās been a great tool that you guys have put together on that.
[31:24] TYLER: Yeah, thatās been exciting. Initially, again, God has been gracious in this whole process. Because the first book, I was getting ready to print it, and then I just kind of asked on social media, āWould anyone find questions helpful?ā And there was just a ton of response, āYes, yes, please, please.ā So I put them in.
[31:40] JONATHAN: 500 percent again.
[31:41] TYLER: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of parents have told us, yeah, these questions at the end of every chapter is such a help in our discipleship.
[31:48] JONATHAN: Itās so good. So helpful. Tyler Van Halteren, I am so grateful to have met you now that Iāve read through your books. And I hope that they continue to be a blessing for generations, just as John Bunyan has been for many centuries. And again, thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat with us on Candid Conversations.
[32:09] TYLER: Yeah, thank you.
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Have you ever considered the miraculous power of the Gospel message as it transcends borders, languages, and opposition? In this episode, we talk about the profound influence of Christian media in the Arab-speaking world through the compelling experiences of Farid Garas, the Senior Director of THE KINGDOM SAT satellite television and internet channel ā a media outreach of Leading The Way with Dr. Michael Youssef.
Farid's narrative is not just about spreading the Gospel; it's a journey of overcoming adversity, embracing his identity in Christ, and changing lives in a region where broadcasting Christian content can defy expectations and alter eternity.
Embark on a captivating journey with Farid, a man who once questioned Christianity but now plays a pivotal role in shaping Christian media in a region where such content has often faced significant obstacles. His encounters with authorities, far from deterring him, only reinforced his commitment to his faith and mission, making his story a testament to the power of unwavering faith in Christ.
Through this conversation, Farid highlights the strategic use of drama, film, and satellite television to spread the Christian message, reaching out to believers and those searching for Truth in tumultuous times. He discusses the growth of THE KINGDOM SAT, its impact, and the continuous efforts to foster a connection with the audience through live broadcasts and digital platforms.
This episode not only delves into Farid's personal and professional life but also provides a deeper understanding of the challenges and opportunities in media and ministry. Through their resilience and dedication, Farid and THE KINGDOM SAT team offer hope to millions in the Middle East, demonstrating the transformative potential of faith-based media in the face of adversity.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 251: Broadcasting Hope: Farid Garas.
[01:28] JONATHAN: Today we have a special guest, an in-house guest here at Leading The Way. Farid Garas is the senior director of the Kingdom Sat. The Kingdom Sat is our 24/7 satellite channel for the Arab-speaking world, taking biblical teaching and different types of programming through satellite television and internet to the Arab-speaking population. He has become a good friend and I am so honored to have him joining us on Candid Conversations. Farid, thank you for joining us.
[02:06] Farid: Thank you, Jonathan, and I would say congratulations. This is the first podcast after being Dr. Jonathan Youssef. So congratulations. Itās an honor to be with you.
[02:16] JONATHAN: Well, itās an honor to be with you. And you are doing some doctoral work yourself. And we can get into that a little bit later for those who are listening, youāre from Egypt. Tell us a little bit about growing up and your life story and then we can transition into how you got into broadcast ministry.
[02:39] Farid: Yeah. I feel I am a minority of the minority, an evangelical Christian in Egypt. And that was a great blessing. I didnāt like it in the beginning, feeling that minority Iām not like everyone else, but it was great. My father was a scientist. He studied science, and he didnāt like all the Christian religious ideas at that time, talking mainly about the traditional Coptic traditions or Christian traditions. And he always thought that those Christians are cheesy and he didnāt like that.
So his two sisters invited him to a Christian conference, and he said, āOkay, Iāll go. But after the first day I will not like it and I will go back home.ā So he tried to flee from the conference three times, and those good Christians would go after him and bring him back.
[03:42] JONATHAN: Kicking and screaming.
[03:44] Farid: Yeah. So God grabbed his attention through Bible study, and also because of the witness of those Christians that went after him. He discovered that those Christians are really good people. They are professionals. They are not cheesy. They are very intellectual, they are funny, they are successful. So he was attracted to God by the witness and the Bible study. The following year, after studying the Bible for one year, he became very excited about this paradigm shift that God allowed him to go through just by knowing the Lord, and he led the conference the following year. He invited eighteen people from his family, young people, and long story short, they all became Christians. They confessed ā¦ they gave their lives to the Lord.
[04:36] JONATHAN: Were they from a Coptic background?
[04:41] Farid: Yeah, they are nominal Christians, mainly. And many of them are leaders in the Christian ministry now. And he played a great role in my life, not just by the Christian teaching, but by his example to me. And he showed me it was a balance between unconditional love and discipline. And itās like your father played a great role in your life, and that prepared me to know the Lord more and to be ready for ministry.
[05:14] JONATHAN: Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing. Your fatherās obviously grown into leadership roles within the Christian community, the evangelical community. Youāre grown up in a covenant home, where youāve heard the Word taught. Tell us a little bit about your faith journey.
[05:37] Farid: Yeah. So my father and mother brought us in a church setting and in a covenant environment, and they prepared us to hear the word of the Lord in house and also in church. But as a teenager, even a kid in an evangelical church, you get to hear the salvation message more than one time. But one time I remember, and the teacher has related with me, it was a play about the end of days. And the last line in the play, the main character talks to the audience and says, āWhat if Jesus came today? Are you going to be here or there?ā
And of course, it was so dramatic. And so I went home and couldnāt sleep. I was thinking of all the events of that day. Is my life really Christian? Am I up to the standard that God accepts? And do I enjoy His redemption just because I want to get released of the ā¦ get out of ā¦ get out of hell?
[06:50] JONATHAN: Yeah, sure. Get out of hell.
[06:53] Farid: If only that reason, not relationship. So I couldnāt sleep, thinking about all these things, and I had to go to the school the following day. I was so tired. So I came back after the school, had a nap, woke up, found Iām home alone; nobodyās home. So I thought, āUh, oh.ā
[07:14] JONATHAN: Itās happened.
[07:16] Farid: Yeah. So this was one of the times that God not only grabbed my attention I think He was preparing me for how media ministry could be a tool in evangelism and in Christian life.
[07:34] JONATHAN: So the impact of that performance left a mark on you that you wanted to continue to build upon that.
[07:44] Farid: Yes. After that, I was becoming like a dedicated Christian. Okay, I need to study the word. I need to practice all these things. And as a result for that, I was invited by the Christian religion teacher, in the middle school, to talk. We have those Christian classes. They separate Muslims and Christians, each group in one class, and there is a curriculum, but he would finish the curriculum and then ask me, āOkay, Farid, tell us what you think about this.ā
Mainly, Iām the only evangelical. He wanted to know what those evangelicals say, so I would share. And then mostly it went all right, apart from one of my colleagues who was very rigid, very extreme, and he would say all those things, āOh, you evangelicals say this.ā āOh, you say that.ā And long story, but it ended up that we became best friends and he gave his life to the Lord. We used to study every night together and so on. And after he became Christian, he has these leadership qualities and he became also excited. And together we started this evangelistic drama team. This drama team grew very fast because it was very effective. We wrote our own plays, we performed in churches, in youth meetings. Even we started our like independent Christian theater festivals. Like we would do three plays in three nights, and it was very well received. Like most of the nights we find that we have double the number of audience, so we need to perform twice and so on. And we even came here to Atlanta in 1996, during the Olympics, to help in evangelistic campaigns for the Arabic speakers.
[09:59] JONATHAN: Wow. I donāt know what to call it. The drama bug had been captured and youāre seeing this as a tool for evangelism, for outreach even internationally., I think you start to recognize that this is only a small stage. Explain to us how the doors opened up to having a bigger reach and a bigger audience.
[10:30] Farid: Yeah, the drama bug is only like a tool in evangelism. And in the Christian media Iāve been for many years, you would find like two extremes. One extreme you would find some very interesting, exciting but shallow content. On the other side you can find very good, deep teaching, very sophisticated, spiritual, biblical but sometimes boring.
[10:57] JONATHAN: This is through television medium.
[10:59] Farid: Yeah. And the theater and radio. So, I mean what was special about this team that God showed us how He could use the good content, because the gospel is the core. And when we started presenting the gospel in the drama tool that would communicate to people in our age, we found that it needs to be like this formula. We cannot let one play to be just popular because itās funny. And we found that God is growing the work.
So it started with theater, then we started to do some radio with TransWorld Radio, like doing drama on radio and so on. And we went to television. You know in Egypt in those years, early, until early 90s, thereās no Christian content available for public audience, even Christians. We are 10 to 15 percent. But the national television would allow a Christian Mass only on Christmas, so itās like one hour per year.
So we said, okay, how can we break into television? And it was hard. There was no way. So we tried to read books, practice, and we started like drama schools. We donāt know anything, but we start inviting people to teach us. And I wanted to study more about media like in a professional way, so I saved money, worked for eight years, then came here to the States, studied digital filmmaking school, did some internship. Then went back to Egypt, completed more studies, did the diploma in film production and directing in the American university.
[13:00] JONATHAN: So your heart was always to go back to Egypt. Yeah.
[13:03] Farid: Yes. I mean, it was very good over here. I studied in Hawaii, then internship in San Diego. The goal is to do ministry, so I went back to Egypt and completed this study, which allowed me to be part of the cinema syndicate and also to have my own production house. So it all started from just the first play that introduced me to the Lord, and then it continued to do more. Now I have to do more work for the mainstream media and the Christian.
And this production house was very successful. God gave me favor in my vendors and producers and it went fast because mainly I learned here in America a different style than the Egyptian national television. Minimum crew doing quality work in a different way. Of course, technology and so on. And I got the hands-on experience. So I had still the main goal was to do ministry using media, but I was able to fund the Christian work from the secular work I used to doāmainly corporate videos, advertisements and documentaries and so on. So they complemented each other. And it grew like for 2003 to 2009 like for six years.
[14:44] JONATHAN: Wow. Wow. Sort of paint a picture for us. What does it look like, up to that point, before thereās television broadcasts, evangelistic broadcasts being allowed in the country? What did sort of radio and drama team, what does that kind of penetration into the population look like?
[15:07] Farid: I mean, you could easily say there is none official media for Christians. They would allow some official magazine or newspaper from the Coptic Church and some from the evangelical, but mainly they would be accepted only in a church setting. So there is no mass media, no radio. So we had Christian radio, TransWorld Radio, that was being broadcast fromā
[15:40] JONATHAN: South of France, yeah. Monaco.
[15:41] Farid: So you could only receive it at like 10:30 PM to 11:30 PM, and you have to be in an area where thereās not a lot of buildings and so on. It was a great blessing. Many people knew the Lord from it. But it didnāt serve the mass, those true seekersāMuslims, Christians, nominal Christians. So that was the case until ā96 when Christian satellite was there as a technology. The government didnāt allow it, but it was there.
[16:16] JONATHAN: So that's kind of your introduction into the television world in terms of Christianity.
[16:24] Farid: Yes. I mean, itās now available. Can we break into that? After the study and this production house, I was able to share in lots of production. And before that, God had prepared me with working in dubbing Christian media, like Jesus Film, VeggieTales, Super Book, as an actor. And it was a great experience.
[16:55] JONATHAN: And where were those being broadcast?
[16:58] Farid: In one of the production houses that actually itās like a Christian place but also recognized as a production house. So I got some training in that, and when the satellite started, I was one of the first ones that were ready to do a part.
[17:19] JONATHAN: So letās kind of move the timeline forward as Christian media is now being produced. And at what point does the government allow satellite broadcasting?
[17:35] Farid: You know they didnāt allow it because satellite is broadcasted from abroad. So in order to stop it, they had to stop all the bouquet of channels, so they couldnāt do that. So it first started on one of the satellites that was Europe-based, but if you have a big satellite dish and receiver, you could receive it at home.
And itās different than here in America. I mean, satellite in the Middle East is free to own. So you just spend maybe $15 or so to have a device recorder and you receive about two thousand channels. So among them are one Christian channel, so if the government wants to stop, they have to stop everything, so they couldnāt.
[18:31] JONATHAN: Right. Thereād be too much backlash. [18:48] So letās fast-forward. Itās 2009. Youāre very busy. Tell us a little bit about what's going on in that year.
[18:57] Farid: Yeah. It was a very important year. At that time, I was busy doing production with different now-Christian satellites. They are more than one now and I already started as a part time in one of the satellite ministries out there and at the same time I was having my production house. And I read a book in one of my visits to Europe and America about Muslim testimonies. You never read those in Egypt, so I thought maybe I should film some. I was naĆÆve. I didnāt know everything is like under surveillance. So I had this studio in my production house. I was doing lots of projects, but this one I said, okay, I need to be careful just in case, so Iāll do it in a secret environment.
But it wasnāt. So I filmed those testimonies and the following day I started to get visits from the national security. And the way it was done, it wasnāt likeāthey didnāt come and say, āWe are the national security. WE want to investigate those Christian projects.ā No. First they would send like one department of some kind of police, checking the social security or checking the telephone or electricity.
[20:40] JONATHAN: They were spying on you.
[20:42] Farid: They wereāI mean, in Egypt, I mean, not all the businesses would have all the papers right. So the plan was to find something wrong to make a case against this office without saying itās religious, just to keep the face for the media in the West. So they didnāt find anything wrong. It took like five weeks, several visits. So the last one they said, āOkay, there is a censorship case against you.ā Usually, those are copyrights or not using original software, which is very common in Egypt. But my software was original. I had no violations. But the case was still there.
And then the national security officer called me in his office. I mean, before all that happened, God prepared me. I had this shooting day with kids at 9:00 AM.
[21:45] JONATHAN: Filming, yeah.
[21:46] Farid: Yeah, it was prepared and everything is in place and I had a dream or vision that I woke up early, like 5:00 AM, very alert with this impression that an officer or someone from the security will come and ask about me. And I knew this was from the Lord because it came with a sense of peace. It should be scary because I know what could happen.
[22:17] JONATHAN: Yeah, right. And youāve got a wife and kids andā
[22:20] Farid: Yeah. Itās ā¦ So I started praying, like reading the Bible and committing the day to the Lord, and I met my friend and production manager at 7:00 AM. I said I had this dream, so I smiled and he said, āWhat do you want to do? Do you want to cancel shooting today?ā I said, āNo, no. But if the officer came, please call me outside not to scare the kids.ā
And we started at 9:00 AM filming. Everything went all right until 3:00 PM I got the visit. They mainly told me āThere is a warrant against you. Come to the national security office at 11:00 PMā at night. That's like usual part of the environment youāre put in. And at that meeting, the officer confronted me. āWhy are you filming those infidels?ā according to the apostate law, they were Muslims, now they are Christians, they are supposed to be under this apostasy law. Apostasy law in Islam if someone left Islam heās supposed to be executed. Itās not applied in Egypt, but the concept is there, so itās not allowed by the families or by the regime orā
[23:45] JONATHAN: Right. Itās an intimidation factor, yeah.
[23:47] Farid: Yeah, for the what they call the public peace and so on. And he said, āWhy did you do that?ā
I said, āI'm a professional director and filming what they have to say.ā
And he said, āYeah, but tell me how much would you take, I see you produce a lot of Christian content.ā
I said, āYes.ā
He said, āOkay, this Christian music video,ā itās all like a lot of content from my production house. āHow much do you take like to produce one?ā
I said, āYeah, like one thousand pounds.ā
āOkay, what if you do like a music video, secular, mainstream one?ā He said, āHow much would you take?ā
I said, āI will be like about fifteen.ā
āFifteen thousand to one thousand. So why would you choose to do the Christian work?ā
I said, āIād like you to watch one of those music videos, secular ones. Would you be happy to show them to your family, to your kids? I want my family to be proud about what I present.ā
And he said, āOkay, why did you film those testimonies or stories. For them itās like disaster.ā
I said, āThey ā¦ I mean, according to the constitution, we have freedom of speech, right?ā
āOh yeah, okay.ā And he said, āOkay, do you have license for the production?ā
I said, āYes.ā
And he started asking questions, and we ended up having a case of censorship. And I asked the lawyer at that time, āOkay, why is it censorship. I had nothing wrong.ā
He said, āYeah, because itās national security, itās classified. They cannot declare it.ā And this lawyer was a Muslim. He said, āWeāre going to win this.ā
So God placed that lawyer after like four different lawyers, and that lawyer took maybe five months to one year, I think, until the case was resolved. And it was what was so-called Arab Spring, the revolution.
[26:00] JONATHAN: Yeah, the people will remember watching that footage back at 2011 and the revolution in the streets and the overthrow of Mubarak and then somewhat of an election that took place afterwards, yeah.
[26:18] Farid: Yes. And during that time, the case was released. And actually they had confiscated two of my editing machines. One of them had my first Christian evangelistic feature film footage and the other one had the backup, so it was unfortunate. I have many other agents witness, but then God really gave us favor in getting those back after all the police stations were burned and somehow God kept those editing suites and the footage, and this film was released and it was even screened here in America.
Itās an evangelistic movie about an immigrant who thinks that heās persecuted because heās Christian. He doesnāt know that his problem is he doesnāt have this relationship with God. So he comes here to America and finds that there is another set of challenges, and then he gets to know the Lord and then his life starts to take a positive turn and that film was here in cinemas in I think 2012 and it was shown in five states who have heavy Arabic-speakers population.
[27:46] JONATHAN: Well, this wasnāt your only run-in with the Egyptian authorities. You continue to produce content and then you find yourself in a similar situationāa worse situation.
[28:02] Farid: Yes. Now I have a file.
[28:06] JONATHAN: That's right.
[28:22] Farid: Yeah, during those years, God made a great awakening in Egypt after the revolution. It was both religious, ritual, biblical and also political for young people especially. And there was not a lot of control at that time, so a lot of ministries were able to go out and do more. One of them was this Christian satellite that I was part of, and God gave us a chance to do things we never were able to do before, like this prayer night, twelve-hours prayer gathering, around 35 thousand. That's like first time in Egypt. And they were gathered at the Cave Church, praying from night to morning, because police were not there. Usually, police does not allow this in the name of security and alsoā
[29:25] JONATHAN: I mean, just for context, this is after the election ofāremind me his name.
[29:34] Farid: Sisi?
[29:35] JONATHAN: No. Before Sisi. Morsi. So this is after the election of Mohammed Morsi.
[29:41] Farid: No, this was in 2011.
[29:42] JONATHAN: In between. Okay, so this is after Mubarak has been sort of deposed.
[29:52] Farid: Yeah. I mean, the army was in control at that time, but there was no president, so there was some more freedom.
[29:59] JONATHAN: So thereās these all-night prayer meetings taking place in this Cave Church.
[30:04] Farid: Yeah. This was 11/11/2011, and it was a great night because it was from all non-official Christian leaders gathering together. And a lot of people, a lot Christiansāand Muslimsāgathered. Because of all what was happening, people were praying, āGod, we need you in this country.ā
And the satellite ministry I was in broadcasted that live. We experienced a lot of trials for interruption, but God miraculously allowed us to be alive. And a lot of the mainstream media were shocked to see what was happening with the number of people, the prayers for peace, including Al-Jazeera channel. So they called me and said, āCan we have your feed?ā And I said, āSure, of course.ā
[31:01] JONATHAN: You said 35 thousand people gathered.
[31:03] Farid: Yes.
[31:04] JONATHAN: I mean, that's just hard to imagine.
[31:07] Farid: So a lot of these events took place, a lot of production, a lot of live programs on satellite, and people were all the time looking at news and they really were looking for hope. They lost trust in the government, they lose trust sometimes in their religious leaders, and they were looking for Jesus. And we presented the hope of Jesus Christ through satellite ministry.
So the regime came back in 2014 and another case wasāI mean, the same scenario happened again. They came to the satellite ministry office, confiscated the machines, like a lot of people, I think there were eleven, twelve people, and they were looking for me. It was the weekend and I wasnāt there, so they called me. I went there and then direct to jail, to a case of five charges, very serious charges.
[32:12] JONATHAN: Each of them carried the penalty of fifteen to twenty-five years.
[32:15] Farid: The minimum. The minimum one of them. And of course, they were false accusations, but in those cases, it doesnāt matter.
[32:29] JONATHAN: Justice may not prevail.
[32:30] Farid: Yeah, it was serious, but the team members started praying, and actually many prayers around the world started because this time it was this Christian ministry, so it was well known. When this happened in 2009 in my office, nobody knew because itās like my private thing. But now many people started to pray. But it wasnāt the only case at that time. I mean, the regime started to be back and there was a message through different things. Okay, the regime is back, everything needs to be back now in law and order according to our system. So those who took more freedom politically, they need to go back to their borders, to their limit. Christians who have been talking and doing a lot of ministry, no, they need to stop.
[33:25] JONATHAN: Restricted freedoms, yeah.
[33:28] Farid: Islamists need to do the same. So they closed a lot of Muslim channels and they had many cases against activists and the revolutionists. And this was the biggest satellite ministry, so this was like a statement that no one needs ā¦ everyone needs to go back to the original setup. You should know your limits. Donāt evangelize Muslims, donāt get too involved in politics and so on.
So this case was very serious, and I got very scared. Just I remember in jail that night just thinking. I read the law, and it seemed like Iāll not go out. And just thinking of my three kids and my wife and said, āLord, what is going to happen?ā I got really ā¦ itās like a panic attack what would happen.
And the other prisoner that was in the same cell had smuggled a cell phone, so he said, āYeah, do you want to talk to your family?ā I said, āYes.ā āOkay, Iāll give you a call. Let them transfer $15 for each minute.ā
So I called my wife, and she said, āWeāre praying for you.ā And my eleven-years daughter said, āWeāre praying for you and I want to share with you the verse from Joshua, āBe courageous and be strong.āā And it communicated to my spirit.
In the first case, my wife was afraid. She used to walk in the streets with the kids, holding her passports in her case because it was so scary with all those visits. But this time, I was scared, she was confident, and she encouraged me. And my daughter, my kids, at that time they were very young, but somehow God gave them peace, although I was in jail.
And miraculously, God resolved this case. And you wonāt believe this, Jonathan, but all the cases that were initiated at that time are not resolved till today.
[36:02] JONATHAN: Except for yours.
[36:03] Farid: Yeah. It was a miracle. I can tell you details, but it was a miracle by the hand of God. And yeah, so Iā
Actually, it was a very special testimony for me during those times. I was released from jail, but the case was still there, so I had a conversation with God. And I said, āGod, I am scared. I think itās time to flee the country.ā
And I felt in my spirit God is saying no. I said, āWhy, God? There are biblical escapes. Joseph and Mary and the baby. Could this be one?ā
[36:46] JONATHAN: Peter, Paul.
[36:47] Farid: Yeah. Can you let me go? How do I face those charges? There was no way this case is going to be resolved. And God asked me one question. He said, āDo you believe what you present on screen, or this is separate from you actually?ā
[37:08] JONATHAN: Is your faith in the thing that you stand behind as a broadcast, yeah, yeah.
[37:13] Farid: āIs it only for commercial or is it real? Do you believe I can resolve this no matter what laws are there, no matter what situation?ā
And I met with my mentors, I prayed with my wife, and I spent time with the Lord the same night, and I ended up saying, āGod, Iām yours and I have peace to stay and I am not afraid but I trust you will take care of this, whatever happens.ā
And I returned the flight ticket I had booked. Actually, my wife said, when I said that, she felt like Iām under a lot of pressure. She said, āYeah, you can buy a ticket and we have twenty-four hours to return it for free.ā And I returned the ticket and it took those five months of investigations, visiting court and all that, but it was resolved. And I spent a few more months in the same ministry and I felt itās time to move on and I felt, okay, I need now some time to pray and see what is next. I had confidence through prayer and through checking with my leaders that it is time for me to move on. But I stayed until God said yes and got the blessing of the leaders and family and all that. And I became independent now, not knowing what to do, and spent some time to pray and ask God what's next.
[39:02] JONATHAN: And what was next? You had a special introduction, you read a book, you read another book.
[39:12] Farid: Yeah! You know I was in a trip in 2014 while being very busy with my production house and our satellite ministry, so in that trip to Lebanon, I had some free time at night. I finished meetings and I selected a book from the library, and it was Dr. Youssefās book, Trust and Obey. And I couldnāt stop reading it until I finished it, because I could resonate with him. And now I know Dr. Youssef from satellite, I know his faithfulness to the Word of God, but I donāt know him as a person. I mean, I know him as a minister, as a speaker.
So his testimony in Trust and Obey was very fascinating for me. I could visualize what he was telling in his book about his upbringing and all his stages he went through, because of course, my journey was much shorter, different, but I could understand a lot of what he was saying from being there in this culture that he was brought in.
And I said this book should be filmed sometime, I mean this testimony. But I have no way of doing that. And so it took two years, and now I am free after 2016. I now have no job. I went to Germany, where my wifeās family are having ministry there, and we stayed there a few months to pray and seek God, and then I got an invitation from Joshua Youssef. āWhy donāt you come to help us at the Kingdom Sat?ā
I said, āI just moved from Egypt to Germany. Iām not sure what's coming.ā
He said, āYeah, pray about it and maybe you can start on a contractor basis, as a consultant.ā
So I said, yes, that seems good. I prayed about it, of course, and I started coming here to the Kingdom Sat, Leading The Way, and started coming every month for one week or so. And after six months, I had total peace about it and I said, āYes, Joshua, if you still feel there is a place for me.ā
He said yes. I met with Dr. Youssef, of course, and they took around one more year to do the visa work and so on, and then I came and joined Kingdom Sat. That was in 2017.
[41:46] JONATHAN: Tell us about Kingdom Sat. For our listeners who maybe arenāt familiar, broadcasting started in 2009, you joined the team in 2017. Who does it reach? Where does it go? What's the fruit thatās being borne from it?
[42:07] Farid: Yeah, the Kingdom Sat is a vision of Dr. Youssef. God gave him the vision in 2004, and it took five years in the making because he wanted to have a solid, biblical channel that broadcast the best of the east and the best of the west in terms of Bible teaching. And God used Maged Atalla, my colleague, to start this. Heās an engineer. He made a great foundation following the vision of Dr. Youssef and a lot of partners who came together with Dr. Youssef to present their content on the Kingdom Sat that's being translated into Arabic. So this was a big part of what's being broadcasted on the Kingdom Sat, along with selected Bible teachers from the Middle East as well.
So it was a great foundation. So I came on a great foundation on a time where social media was coming, live broadcast was being introduced more and more, and when I joined, Joshua asked me, āWhat proposal do you have for the Kingdom Sat? What do you think?ā
And I presented a proposal and mainline I met with him and Dr. Youssef and said, āThis is what I think. I think Kingdom Sat is a great channel, but itās more like radio. If you turn the screen off and only listen, you donāt lose anything. We have a great tool. We can present visuals. We can do more. So I think itās great, but one of the things that we need to do is doing more formats, more genres. We need to reach more peopleāespecially those who are underprivileged like women, kids, young people in the Middle East. And we need to reach out to the non-Christians.
He said, āYeah, this is our vision.ā And actually Dr. Youssef said, āYeah, actually we made a survey and this is what we reached.ā And he quoted one of the friends in Egypt. He told them āthe Kingdom Sat is like a big, huge, elegant department store, but you enter and you found only navy blue suits, size 42.ā
And he laughed at that and they said, āYes, we want to do more.ā
And I started working on that, like different lines like having broadcasting live, like have live broadcasts, especially from Church of the Apostles. And this was a continuation for the people in the Middle East to know what's this vision. Who is Dr. Youssef? Who is Jonathan? Who are those singers in the Church of the Apostles? And I think that made a great connection, especially with those who donāt have churches, like in Nigeria or those placesā
[45:25] JONATHAN: Where you're isolated andā
[45:27] Farid: And they write on Facebook when we broadcast live. For example, when youāre preaching they would say, āOh Jonathan, God bless you and God bless your father. God bless the church,ā as if they are there in the church. And in the communion time, they will talk āWe donāt have a church, so weāre taking communion with you now. Weāre praying.ā
And the first time in Easter 2018 it was the first time to do live, God encouraged us by two Arabic speakers in the Middle East giving their lives to the Lord. So it was encouragement so we started that once a month, then during the COVID time, we started to do it on a regular basis. So itās a great blessing to have these live broadcasts. And we started to introduce a lot of digital platforms, like Apple TV, Roku, Smartphone application. We updated the website and streaming. So we started to add more genres, add more partners from the west and east, so a lot of things happened.
And today the Kingdom Sat reaches 260 million households in the Middle East, and they receive this ministry for free. And anyone with an internet connection can receive the content of the Kingdom Sat.
[46:47] JONATHAN: And letās talk a little bit about the follow-up process, because you have people that are standing by phones to answer calls. What are some of the questions and feedback that you get from the broadcast?
[47:03] Farid: A lot of viewers are very true seekers, even those from Muslim background, and they are faithful. They really seek God. So they send questions, sometimes in a provoking way, sometimes attacking, but they keep watching. They will attack one time, and then the field team would respond to them in a graceful way and helping them, so they would come back, watch again, and raise another question. And we have great testimonies of those viewers that only watched by chance the Kingdom Sat, they watch some program, and they would keep interacting with us until they become Christians, they commit their lives to the Lord, and they get baptized. Then they join an online study group for discipleship or we would connect them with a local church. So this is one type of persons, those true seekers. And as I said, it changes from very extreme attackers to true seekers that are ready to accept Christ.
And the second persona we serve is the new believers. Some people knew the Lord through the Kingdom Sat or online or somewhere else but they donāt have a place to grow.
[48:37] JONATHAN: They need discipleship, yeah.
[48:39] Farid: Yeah, and not to compare, but the Kingdom Sat is very distinct about presenting biblical teaching, solid. Other ministries would present this shallow content that we spoke about. So that's the second persona, like new believers. Third persona is mature believers who are in ministry, for example, and they want to grow, they want to learn. And some of those viewers would write, for example, in YouTube, āI am watching the series so-and-so for Dr. Youssef. Where is episode number 15? I want to finish it tonight!ā
[49:19] JONATHAN: Weāre on top of you. That's right.
[49:21] Farid: So they are the three main personas. There are subcategories, but we have a great field team that is dealing 24/7 with any viewer who has a question or he wants a prayer request or they ask even other, general questions.
[49:39] JONATHAN: And what's the risk for those people that are on the ground, field team workers? I mean, youāre working in a hostile environment. Itās not like youāre in Oklahoma fielding calls. Youāre in the thick of it.
[49:54] Farid: That have the same risk I faced. And yeah, I mean, but again what I experienced. They are also in the protection of God. But they could be charged, they could be persecuted, detained, or all this could happen in an indirect way by the community, by their families. But this doesnāt stop them. Most of those in the field team are coming from a Muslim background, have theology degree, so that's their life goal, their vision.
[50:39] JONATHAN: Well Farid, your story is just ā¦ itās fascinating to me the beginning with the drama, you coming to the West, coming to America, then going back, facing the adversities, then coming back here and now you're presenting on a global stage the very thing that led you to the Lord. And weāre just so thankful for the work that you do and the work of the Kingdom Sat. And weāre so grateful that you took the time to sit with us and share your story here on Candid Conversations. Thank you for being with us.
[51:13] Farid: Thank you, Jonathan. Itās an honor to be here, and itās great to be in the kitchen how things are done here. And I see the hand of the Lord every day in this, in your family, in the ministry of the Church of the Apostles, Leading The Way, and itās God work and Iām very grateful to be here.
[51:35] JONATHAN: Well, weāre grateful for you. Thank you, Farid.
[51:36] Farid: Thank you.
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Is there something more than this life? This world is full of crises, conflicts, difficulties, and troubles, but this world will not last. No matter your age, your earthly life is slowly slipping away. This is why Jesus encourages us not to store up treasures on this earth but to invest in heaven.
In this 250th episode of Candid Conversations, Dr. Michael Youssef joins Jonathan for a father-son conversation about his new book, Heaven Awaits. This book is written to help you understand the future promise of heaven in Christ Jesus. Explore what the Bible says about heaven and envision the wonders and glories awaiting those who believe in Christ.
Heaven is real, far more real than your earthly experience right now.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 250: Understanding the Future Promise of Heaven: Dr. Michael Youssef
[00:01] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Today, we have a very special guest in Dr. Michael Youssef. And he comes on our program because heās written another book. And we have you on quite often because you write a lot of books.
[00:17] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Thank you. And Iām glad to be in your Dr. Youssef show now, Dr. Jonathan Youssef.
[00:23] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: And we have to change the title.
[00:24] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Congratulations.
[0:25] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Thank you very much. You have written a book on heaven. This is your first book on heaven as far as Iām aware. Tell us about why.
[00:39] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Iāve thought of heaven since I was a young man. Iāve never really been away from that thought. But also I am seeing so much confusion, so much confusionānot just in the world at large, which you can understand the devil sold us a lie in order to deceive people, but the churches are now confused, pastors are confused about heaven. And the world basically entered into their hearts, into their thinking, and everything is about this life, this life, this life, which is a very tragic situation that we find ourselves in as a Church of Jesus Christ. And my biggest concern is to alert and wake up the bride of Christ as to their greatest day, and itās yet to come.
Where youāre going to spend eternity is so important. In fact, the very first story I open up the book with was back in 1977. In February of ā77, my wife and I and two little ones came here from Australia. But weāve done a lot of research finding out where weāre going to live, what the country is about, what the culture is about, and so on, and this is just for a place weāre going to live for two years, which we did, in Pasadena.
And how much more should we be doing those same preparations and research for where weāre going to be forever? I mean, just think. People canāt fathom that. Because they canāt fathom it, they take it out of their mind forever and ever and ever.
[02:34] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: āGives you a little bit of a buzz, doesnāt it, just the thought of it. Yeah, because everything we know comes to an end. This is the only thing I think we can consider has no end.
[02:44] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Exactly. And the point I make even in the early part of the book is that there is only one ticket that takes you to heaven, and that is the ticket that's stamped with the blood of Jesus. I say there are a lot of fake tickets out there. that have been handed by Satan through Hollywood, through false churches, through false teachers and false preachers.
[03:12] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Or your own mind.
[03:13] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Or your own mind. But those are the tickets that are not going to get you to heaven. Only the one that's stamped with the blood of Jesus Christ. On what basis do I have the confidence that Iām going to heaven? The blood of Jesus Christ, period. My ticketās stamped with that blood.
[03:26] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: That leads us to the next topic, which is letās talk a little bit about the misconceptions out there, and you can blend the twoābut coming from the Hollywood mentality. Are those the same as what you see in churches that have lost their way? Are they different?
[03:53] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Slightly different, but they lead to the same hell.
[03:57] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Right. They go to the same place.
[03:58] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Because Hollywood and the New Age movement, even with this lady who supposedly died and went to heaven and came back and she was interviewed by Oprah, and she said to her, she said, āJesus told me Heās not going to judge anybody. Live any which way you want.ā
And then Oprah said, āWell, if I think Jesus is as cool as I think He is, He would have said that to you.ā
[04:21] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Contradicting Himself? [overlapping voices]
[04:26] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Yeah. And so the fact that everybody is going to go to heaven is absolute lie from the pit of hell. But then you go into the other side of things in some traditional churches and some mainline churches who said if youāre good you go to heaven. Well, Iām good. Sure, Iām not perfect, but Iām good, so everybody sees themselves as good.
[04:50] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: According to whose standard, right?
[04:51] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF And they are contradicting the Bible, because the Bible said no one is good. I had an email came third-hand to me. A guy said, āI love that statement on page 47,ā and I still remember it because he said, āYou said only bad people in heaven. The only good person in heaven is Jesus.ā
And those are the redeemed people who recognize theyāre sinners and they cannot make it to heaven without Jesus. And that's what really I meant by it. But he said, āThat just gave me such confidence and comfort to know that Iām redeemed by the blood of Christ and that's the only way Iām going to heaven.ā
And so Iām so glad so many people are now sending me comments and saying how much this book has encouraged them in their walk with Christ. And the whole reasonānot only to refute all these falsehoodsābut another reason for writing the book is I want to put people on the right track to realize that heaven is not, well, in the by and by when I die, but heaven is now. Heaven influences my thoughts, decisions, investments, and moneyāwhere I put my money. Is it in heaven or is the inflation going to eat it up? And so all these are very important decisions.
C. S. Lewis made a statement years ago that impacted me, has been for nearly fifty years since I read it. He said, you know, they talk about āOh, heās so heavenly minded, heās of no earthly good.ā Iāve heard that so many times, even back in the sixties, seventies, and he said if you examine history, you find that only those who were heavenly minded were of any earthly good and he goes on to give examples.
I mean, I think Lord Shaftesbury, who impacted the culture in England probably like very few people said, āThere was not a day went by without me thinking of heaven.ā And that's what caused him to be a reformist. Wilberforce fought for forty years to outlaw slavery. That's because of the thought of heaven.
And so anybody who says, āWell, heaven is just going to be distracting from what youāre doing now,ā absolutely lies.
[07:15] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: No, itās a driving force.
[07:16] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Exactly. And I tell people all the time, unashamedly, I work, and I work harder at seventy-five than I did when I was forty-five or twenty-five, and simply because I live for one thing: hearing those words from Jesusās lips, āWell done, good and faithful servant.ā
[07:36] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Thereās also the misconception that it can be earned, you can do enough good works. Not necessarily about being a good person, but that the works are sort of counterbalancing you in this either sort of a karma sense or a works righteousness from a theological mindset.
[07:56] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF This is as old as my ancestors, the ancient Egyptians.
[08:00] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: It might be as old as the Garden.
[08:03] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Probably. But I remember even growing up in Egypt and studying Egyptian pharaonic history and seeing some of the pictures that go back five thousand years, and the scale. And the scale was held by one of the gods.
[08:20] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Like a weight scale.
[08:21] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF A weight scale, yeah. And you see hereās your good deeds versus your bad deeds and youāve got to make the good deeds outweigh the bad deeds. But again, another lie from the pit of Satanās hell. And we need to be absolutely certain that people understand that youāre not going to heaven based on anything youāve done, but itās based on the grace of God that He has given you through Jesus Christ. Period.
Then the rewards in heaven are a whole different story. And that requires faithfulness if you want to be rewarded. There are five crowns in the Bible it talks about. Faithfulness, thereās a crown for those who love His appearing. Thereās all kinds of crowns. And those are not crowns we will just kind of put on our heads, but the crowns that we will take and lay at the feet of Jesus in our gratitude and thanksgiving for saving us.
[09:23] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: I think a lot of people like to imagine and picture what heaven looks like. Fill in some of the gaps for people who have maybe an incomplete view. Thereās the picture of the sitting on a cloud playing a harp, wearing a robe, singing nonstop, just being bored.
[09:47] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Right. Itās medieval art.
[09:49] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Exactly.
[09:51] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF The cherubic, fat kidsā
[09:53] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah, weāll all be fat babies.
[09:54] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF And absolutely it is absolute falsehood. And Iām not even big on these so-called heavenly tourism. Why do I listen to somebody who says they died and came back when IāPaul himself, when he was taken into heaven, he said, āIām not allowed to even talk about it.ā And when I have the real deal, I have Jesus, who tells me exactly what heaven is like.
[10:23] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Thatās all you need.
[10:24] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF And that's what I do in the book, Heaven Awaits. I stick with the Word of God. I see people go off the rails when they deviate, and so my focus is the Word of God. Iām always having people on social media ask me, am I a Calvinist, and I Arminian, am I a dispensationalist, a postmillennialist, a premillennialist. Iām none of these. Iām a Bible-believing Christianāthat is, if itās in the book of God Iām going to believe it and preach it, but not try to be a follower of a man theory. I follow Jesus and I try to focus on that until the Lord takes me home. I will not deviate from it, no matter how much the pressure is put on me.
[11:14] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: All right, so letās fill in some of the pictures for people. Letās talk about our bodies. Thereās a lot of concepts. We can even take a step future back, the idea of soul sleep or ā¦ Fill in a little bit of those gaps for us.
[11:35] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Sure. Well, this is again following some manās theory, theological theory.
[11:43] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Or misinterpretation of texts.
[11:46] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF But you know when you think about this, so much thing about the end times eschatology now is driven by a theory that was devised by a man in Plymouth, England, in 1825 by the name of John Nelson Darby. Most of them would not know this, but that's what they are. They are doing only following somebody, you know, chart. I follow the Bible. I stick with the Word of God. And there is no soul sleep in the Bible. The Bible talks about sleep of the believer. This is to indicate that itās temporary. Jesus died, but we sleep. He took our death so that when we die, we only sleepāitās a temporary thing because immediately our soul goes into heaven, according to 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and Paul says itās not going to be floating souls in heaven. When the disciples of Jesus were in the Mount of Transfiguration, they didnāt see the soul of Elijah and the soul of Moses; they saw them in a glorified body. In fact, Peter was so ecstatic, he wanted to hang in there for a long time.
[13:02] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Letās camp here for a bit.
[13:03] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Yeah. And so these are glorified bodies in heaven. When we die, there is a body that's prepared for us in heaven. Itās a body like Jesusās body after the resurrection. And those are bodies that are totally righteous and holy, and therefore, we would be able to see the face of God when Moses couldnāt see the face of God, but we will. Because we can never see the face of God in this body.
[13:34] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Those bodies are indestructible and not ravaged by the effects of the Fall and sin.
[13:42] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF In fact, I think itās the mercy of God that Moses did not see the face of God. He would be incinerated because in this sinful body we canāt do it. But in the glorified body that is immediately prepared for us as soon as we enter heaven in a glorified body, we will be able to see and do and have no physical limitation, no pain, no suffering. And all of those promises in the Scripture are very clear.
[14:12] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: I donāt remember reading it in the book, but I mean thereās a sense that there will be gardening and working and building and weāll be active. Weāre not just sitting around.
[14:25] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF No. In fact, John said in Revelation āand the servants to serve Him.ā And the Bible says that weāre going to reign and rule with Christ. Think of the universe, and our God is sitting on the rim of the universe right now, ruling and reigning, and weāre going to be participating in that. Itās mindboggling. Sometimes I let my mind soar, but then I bring myself back to reality.
[14:48] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Levitate for a moment.
[14:49] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF But yeah, itās incredible when you think about it. We will be working. We will be serving, and weāll be doing great things for God. Weāre praising Him, of course, thanking Him. I just try to imagine that moment and I get so overwhelmed I want to go.
[15:05] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Letās talk a little bit about fears and perspectives, the things that can kind of creep in and the enemy can try and stealā
[15:14] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF One of the things that also is prevalent, particularly among those so-called āprogressiveā churches or liberal churches, Iāll never forget thirty-five years ago I was having a discussion with one of those so-called āliberalāāministers in one of those churches and we were talking about heaven. And he said, āHow arrogant of you to think that youāre good enough to go to heaven.ā
I said, āThat's exactly the falsehood that you believe, and that's you think a person is going to heaven based on his good, how good he is or she is.ā But I only have the confidence because Jesus promised it. And that is really the most important thing that we need to emphasis. People donāt think that we are just full of ourselves. We think weāre better than everybody else. Weāre going to heaven and youāre not. No, no, no, no, no. Iām only assured of heaven because Jesus said so. He promised it. And God keeps His promises.
[16:16] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Despite my sinful nature, despiteā
[16:20] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Yeah. In fact, itās because of my acknowledging of my sinful nature and my need for salvation.
[16:25] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah. To your point, itās not good people in heaven; itās bad people in heaven who had the goodness of Christ because He covers us.
[16:31] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Weāre born again.
[16:32] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah. And letās move to that because you have a chapter on what does it mean to be born again and looking at Nicodemus. Talk to us a little bit aboutāBecause the question does remain, well then, who is in heaven? And I know we talked a little bit about that earlier, but letās fill that picture out.
[16:49] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Those who are born again. What does it mean to be born again? That's very important. That's the message I take to evangelistic events and when I preach. Itās a very important message. Because to be born physically means youāre alive physically. And so to be born spiritually, it means you are spiritually alive. How come? Because every one of us, every human being who is ever born of a woman was born spiritually dead. I mean, physically alive, running around, but spiritually dead. Not comatose, dead, dead, dead. And so when the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and then we spiritually become awake and alive, that's born again. That's when you become born of the Spirit. Jesus said youāre going to be born of the Spirit of God because God has to do something on the inside of us to change us.
And I remember that day like yesterday when my whole life changed. My views of everything just changed overnight. Of course, itās taken me sixty years of walking with Christ to grow in the knowledge and so forth, but that day was the beginning when I knew that it was totally transformed by the power of God and I became conscious of sin and confession of my sin and the closeness with God and the thirsting for righteousness and all of that.
[18:19] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: I remember as a boy when you would preach on heaven you would always talk about that this life was like a dress rehearsal. And itās interesting because you were talking about you remember the moment when you became spiritually awake, but in the sixty-odd years, youāve grown in your sanctification, youāve grown in your knowledge and love for the Lord.
They talk about the theological concept of the already and the not yet. Like you said, thereās a concept now in my mind and an understanding of the reality of heaven, and Iām now living in preparation for that, and that's what the Christian life is preparing you for.
[19:00] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Well, just as, you know, I sought to set an example for you and your siblings, I had others who set that example for me. My grandfather and my mother, they set the example of their being motivated by heaven, and therefore, they have done so much on the Earth because of their motivation of heaven. And so I am so grateful for their example, and I sought to also set an example, not just for you as my family and children, but also to congregations and people that I minister to. I told one of our pastoral care ministers one time, I said, you know, I have been privileged to teach for now fifty-two years since I was ordained to show people how to live for Christ. I donāt know how the Lord is going to take me home, whether itās going to be sudden or not, that's in His sovereign will. Either way He does it is fine by me. But if He privileged me to have a slow death that I pray that I will be able to teach people how to die in Christ. I taught them how to live in Christ, now how to die in Christ is very important.
[20:21] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: We canāt have a conversation about heaven without having a conversation about hell. And thankfully, you do have a chapter in your book that delves into that. Letās go there.
[20:40] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Okay, well, as you know, I have never preached on hell without tears. Sometimes I mean broken down completely, not just shedding a tear or two. And the reason I do that and the reasonāactually itās out of my control; if it was in my control, I wouldnāt cryābut the reason I do is because I know hell is real. Just as heaven is real, hell is real. Itās a place, and there is going to be suffering, the Bible called that the lake of fire. The Bible talks about the worms that do not die, and the fire that would not die, and the gnashing of teeth. And the descriptions, a dark place where you feel falling all the time but there is no bottom. And it goes on and on and on.
I try to put those descriptions that Jesus gave us, notā
[21:27] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Not your own mind or some philosopher.
[21:28] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF āor fantasies of other people. Itās what Jesus said. And the Bible makes it clear: hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. That is for whom hell was prepared. Unfortunately and sadly, there are so many who follow Satan who will end up with him in that lake of fire. And I have dedicated my life and whatever years Iāve got left, or days, it doesnāt matter, I am dedicating them to warn people why should you perish? Why should you follow Satan, who takes you straight into that eternal life of torment?
You say, āHow do you know that?ā Well, Jesus, again. He talked about Lazarus and the rich man. This is before His own resurrection, before His own opening paradise for the believers, where they were still in a waiting, holding pattern, as it were. But even then, before Christās resurrection, they were in two different places: one is a torment and pain and suffering and burning of the tongue, and the other one is a joy in what they used to call the bosom of Abraham.
And so the conversation goes on, the man cries out from Hades to Abraham and he said, āPlease send Lazarus,ā the guy whom he didnāt even pay a minuteās notice, he said, āSend him with a drop of water in his finger to just cool my tongue and give me relief.ā
Had he said, āWe have a huge gap between us. We cannot cross to you and you cannot cross to us.ā And that is what really makes me cry and weep, because once you cross over to the other side, there is no return. No matter how much you try and say, āI repent, I change now.ā No, no, itās too late. Itās like the days of Noahāand Jesus said thatāitās like the days of Noah. And he kept warning, 120 years heās been preachingāitās so difficult for me even to comprehend. And thereās, āNo, no,ā and made fun of him. And then in the end, of course, when the flood came, āOkay, weāll get in.ā No, no, no. God shut the door.
God will shut the door one day, and so my longing, the longing of ā¦ the longing of my heart (and I do this in the book, especially that last chapter) is Iām pleading with people, come to Christ now. The opportunity is now. The moment is now. The hour is now. Donāt put it off. And in the end, itās like Ezekiel says. If you warn people and they get into trouble, youāre innocent. And that's what I want to be, a watchman whoās innocent. But if I didnāt warn them and I know danger was coming, then I have their blood on my hand, and I donāt want that to happen. I donāt want blood on my hand.
[24:29] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Letās just sort of, as we conclude, whoās the book for and why should they buy it?
[24:37] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Actually, this book is for everyone. Seldom do I say that because there are some books specifically. But this is for the believer, to encourage them and uplift them; for the non-believer to be forewarned and give them a chance to turn to Christ. So really, a believer will read it and be encouraged, but then give it to somebody who needs to know about the plan of salvation and hopefully then youā
[25:00] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Someone who has a false view of heaven.
[25:01] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Exactly. And then you, who will give that book to somebody else, will be receiving the reward, even more than me who has written, because you have been an instrument of God of handing this warning to people and telling them to wake up while itās time.
[25:21] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah, yeah. Well, the book is Heaven Awaits: Anticipate Your Future Hope, Your Eternal Home, Your Daily Reality by Dr. Michael Youssef. Dad, thank you so much for returning and gracing us once again with your presence on Candid Conversations.
[25:38] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Thank you Dr. Jonathan Youssef. Thank you for your ministry. I appreciate it.
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In this profound episode, Jonathan is joined by esteemed theologian and author Michael Horton to discuss his latest book, "Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us." In a world teetering on the brink of chaosāfrom unsettling politics to the lingering effects of the global pandemicāHorton's book offers not a typical self-help guide but a deep theological exploration of how a proper fear of God can liberate us from our myriad earthly fears.
Dr. Horton, Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary, explains what it truly means to fear Godāboth biblically and theologicallyāand how this reverential fear can effectively drive out fears of the future, others, and even death itself.
Throughout the episode, Dr. Horton discusses the different types of fears that plague our societyāfrom cultural anxieties to personal strugglesāand how these stem from a lack of genuine fear of God. He emphasizes confronting our earthly fears with the hope found in Christ, rooted in the Gospel, and the shift from self-preservation to a Christ-focused life.
This episode is a humbling, thought-provoking, and hope-igniting journey that challenges listeners to replace false securities with the profound joy of knowing Christ, who commands us, "Do not be afraid." Join us as we explore how cultivating a healthy fear of God can recover our sanity in these turbulent times.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 249: Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears That Divide Us: Michael Horton.
[00:01] Jonathan: My very special guest is Mike Horton. He is a professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Westminster Seminary in California, and he is the author of many books, including The Christian Faith Ordinary and Core Christianity. He also hosts the White Horse Inn radio program. He lives with his wife, Lisa, and their four children in Escondido, California, and it looks like heās on his back patio, having a conversation with me and being very gracious with his time. Mike Horton, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[00:45] Michael: Thank you, Jonathan.
[00:50] Jonathan: I do thank you for your time. Now Mike, Iāve read your books, I have subscribed and I do recommend all of our listeners subscribe to the White Horse Inn. If you could just give us a quick, whirlwind tour of your story, we can talk a little bit about the podcast and some of your books as we progress through the interview.
[01:19] Michael: Well, thank you, Jonathan. Yeah, I was raised in a Christian home and came to understand the doctrines of grace partly through my older brother. Kind of had my own little, not little, my own Romans revolution and then started digging deeper into Church history and theology and biblical studies, and eventually went to Biola University, Westminster California, then to Oxford for doctoral studies and then post-doc at Yale and came back to teach at my alma mater and have been here for 25 years. Blessed to be able to have a hand, with my colleagues, in training pastors; pastors training pastors.
[02:17] Jonathan: Iāve been a recipient of many of the students of Westminster Seminary who taught me at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta, and Iāve been really blessed by your work. Youāve got a very jovial, friendly, California vibe to you, but when you speak, youāre like a double-edged sword. Itās so penetrating. And I think there could be a theological issue that Iāve been struggling with for months and youāll say it so concisely in a few sentences, and Iāll think, Where was that when I needed that?
[03:09] Michael: Youāre too kind. Thank you.
[03:11] Jonathan: Tell us a little bit about the White Horse Inn. It has been on for something like thirty years.
[03:17] Michael: Yeah, thirty-plus, almost thirty-five years now. It has been such a fun thing. Iāve learned so much from my colleagues on the program. I still learn from the new team. We produce a magazine, too, Modern Reformation Magazine, which is reallyāI encourage people to subscribe to that. Itās a good digest of topical theology related to culture. The umbrella organization is called Sola Media, and one of the things that we do that Iām so excited about being a part of is called Theo Global, where we host theological conversations (like we do on the White Horse Inn) between Baptist, Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican traditions and bring people together from a particular region. So weāve been doing it for eleven years in India and also almost that long in Nigeria or in Kenya, in Nairobi. And then also Cairo for the Middle East. We just did one in Thailand that Pakistanis and Indians were able to come to, because theyāre not able usually to see each other. And then we are, Lord willing, starting another one in Southeast Asia, probably Singapore.
So these have been so rich. Out of them are coming, a series of theology books from the global church to the global church. And so instead of having just regional theologies or theologies that pretend that theyāre not culturally contextual, we want to hear the voices of people from different locations testifying to the same Gospel, and that's just really been lots of fun.
[05:42] Jonathan: Well, having ministered near that area of the world in Australia, youāre right, there can be a disconnect between the cultures. We read each otherās books and that sort of thing, and those are Western cultures, but I think we miss out on hearing about what is happening in Southeast Asia, Because they do face similar obstacles but also some quite different. As one of the points of your book is, there is still the one true God and the one Gospel that reaches across those cultures and reaches across so many of those things that we would consider barriers. And I think that's wonderful. I pray the Lord would bless that.
[06:30] Michael: Thank you. One of the things I find, Jonathan, is there is a sweet unity around the Gospel that binds us when I go to these other places. Wherever I am in the world, I donāt feel like Iām a stranger because Iām with my brothers and sisters. I wish I felt the same way in America. Itās very different here.
[06:51] Jonathan: Yeah, I was going to say itās interesting that what youāre doing is youāre unifying and uniting across denominations, across cultural things, and yet that's working almost in the opposite direction of where we see things here, which is thereās division within denominations; thereās division within small regions. Youāre undoing what is happening on a bigger scale in some of the Western parts. Itās exciting to hear that's not happening everywhere, that thereās actually some unification taking place and that's encouraging. And I know thatās going to be an aspect of what we talk about in our conversation about one of your new books.
Now, I know that you had some health issues with your heart a couple of years ago. Maybe for some of our audience who didnāt know or having heard any updates, are you healthy?
[07:54] Michael: Thanks for asking. Yes, what it was was a valve that just exploded in my heart, so it was an emergency open-heart surgery. But they saidāthey know my arteries and my heart better than anybody, they said, youāll die of something, but it wonāt be of heart disease. You have a good heart; you have good arteries; this was just a fluke.
[08:24] Jonathan: Unbelievable.
[08:25] Michael: Soāyeah. Iām fully recovered. They said I could go bungee jumping again if I want to.
[08:32] Jonathan: Again. Iām glad that you were already doing thatāI picked up your book a while ago and Iāve been wanting to have you on the podcast ever since reading it. And the book is called Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. And my goodness, what a perfect title for everything we see. Give us a little bit of the reason for writing and the timing of the book.
[09:18] Michael: Well, it had been percolating for years now, actually. I wrote a book many years ago called Beyond Culture Wars: Is America a Mission Field or a Battlefield? And this is in a similar vein, but really in light of the fears that really divide us today. And the center used to be the Bible, the Gospel, getting the Gospel right and getting the Gospel out. We have our doctrinal differences across the evangelical mainstream, but basically we had different political views and those political views didnāt divide between brothers and sisters and churches.
And what Iāve seen lately has just been like a food fight in a cafeteria, and political issues and social issues raised to the level of the Trinity. And itās like, okay, well, we can argue about that over coffee, but we donāt bring it into the church. That used to be kind of how people thought about things. These things are important, but theyāre not as important as our unity in Christ. But I hear people attacking pastors, pastors attacking their flock, back and forth over these issues. And I think people donāt get this heated over the doctrine of election or justification or the Trinity. Does it suggest that these issues are deeper in our hearts than the truth of Christianity, so what really binds us?
And I looked at it and I said what really binds us is salvation, what we think weāre saved from. If we think weāre saved from the people over there who are threatening our values, or the people over there who are different from us ethnically, or the people over there who have a different view of economics and social justice? What are we really afraid of? What are our ultimate fears? And I argue that we have all these secondary fears. The real fear deep down, the mother of all fears, is the fear of death. And none of the solutions that can be offered by FOX or CNN, there is no solution to that. But we have it. Why isnāt that on our dashboard as central, getting it right and getting it out?
[13:01] Jonathan: In the book you cast a broad net in kind of what youāve just said up here, picking out a few of the issues that youāre seeing so much division over. But then you lay out some of the theological framework to reorientate your reader to where fear should rightly be placed. And itās away from the fear of one another and having a right fear of God.
And you use the word sublime in the book, which I found really helpful as an aspect of God. I wonder if you could give us a little bit of explanation and walk that out for us.
[13:52] Michael: Sure. I love that word. Sublime is really, I think, what weāre talking about when we talk about the fear of God. Some people will say, āWell, itās not really fear. Itās reverence, awe.ā Fear is a big part of it, but itās a kind of fear that attracts. Think of what happens if youāve ever stood at the mouth of a volcano, looking over it, watching the lava flow. Or I live in Southern California, so we have fires, and thereās a kind of weird attraction to going to the fire and seeing it. Or youāre out on the ocean and youāre terrified. A squall comes up youāre afraid, but youāre also kind of your heart is racing not just because youāre afraid, but also because youāre kind of in awe of what's happening. In awe of the waves.
God, you know whenever an angel shows up in the Bible, an emissary of God, what's the first thing? You know the number-one commandment throughout Scripture? The number-one command is āBe not afraid.ā Because when even the mailman of God shows up, people are terrified.
[15:31] Jonathan: Yeah, or Mosesās face is a little too bright.
[15:36] Michael: Yeah. Hey, put a napkin over that or somethingā¦ That's what, really, is the basis for all sublime events, encounters that we have is really the fear of God. And so itās ā¦ A Jewish writer, John Levinson, puts it well. He says, āIn the Hebrew Scriptures God beckons with one hand and repels with the other.ā
So thereās a kind of donāt get too close. Even Jesus in His Resurrection, āDonāt touch me. Iām different.ā God is different from us. And that sense of awe, of majesty, of even terror. Think of the disciples in the boat with Jesus. They were afraid of the storm, and then Jesus calmed the storm and they were afraid of Jesus. Who is this who has control over the winds and the waves? They were terrified. And that's the kind of Who is this? What am I dealing with here? The kind of shock and awe, the surprise is something that is missing, I think, from a lot of our experience as Christians today.
[17:11] Jonathan: Well, and I know in the book weāve seen a lot of the statistical evidence that comes in support of what youāve just said, which shows that evangelical Christians really donāt know what they believe. They have a complete misunderstanding of God, of the nature of Christ, of their roles.
[17:51] Michael: If the fear of God is not the beginning of our wisdom, then something else will be. Weāll fear something else. We will fear other people who are different from us and weāll fear cancer, weāll fear losing our job, weāll fear environmental collapse and catastrophe, weāll fear these other people taking over. Itās not that those ā¦ that there arenāt legitimate concerns of a political and social and cultural nature. But we have a disordered fear. And if we have disordered fears, we have disordered loves.
God is not only the source of our greatest fear, legitimate fear; Heās also the only one who conquers our fears and says, āWelcome home, prodigal. Welcome home, hereās the feast.ā
[19:22] Jonathan: And deals with our, as you refer to it, the mother of all fears.
[19:27] Michael: Death. Weāre dying. In California, people arenāt allowed to die; they pass away; and we put these cemeteries out, far away from view, or we turn them into parks and things. And it used to be every time you walked into a church there would be headstones, and it reminded you as you walked in why youāre going in there. The Gospel is for dying people, and weāre all on that road. And so the question is, How do we face death? ā¦ How is that ultimate anxiety relieved? We mourn, but not as those who have no hope. So what does that mean for my daily life now? I could be twelve years old and Iām dying. I could be eighty and Iām dying. So what ā¦ Letās talk about that. Letās talk about the dying and the resurrection of the dead and being attached to Jesus so that what He is in His humanity right now, glorified, we will be. Letās talk about that. That's a lot better than anything on CNN or FOX.
[21:00] Jonathan: I love it. I think in the book you tell the story of when you went to a debate with, I might be messing this up, but I think it was with an atheist and you sort of said, āYep. Great. Can I talk about Jesus nowā and kind of put him off, and he sort of like, āI wasnāt prepared to debate that.ā
[21:22] Michael: Yeah. This was years ago. Bill Nye the Science Nye.
[21:24] Jonathan: Bill Nigh, that's right.
[21:25] Michael: He was talking about how religion is based on false fears and so they develop myths and so forth.
[21:37] Jonathan: And you were like, āWell, that's true.ā
[21:39] Michael: Yeah. I donāt disagree; that's a pretty fair analysis of religions. I guess youād have to take one by one and analyze it, but as a generalization, now can I talk about Jesus and His Resurrection? Letās keep getting back to the main business here.
[21:59] Jonathan: The main issue. Yeah. In the book you draw this distinction between naturalistic and hyper supernatural, but then you sort of carve out this third option of ordinary. Can we talk a little bit about that and how we see that playing out in our world today, particularly in the Church?
[22:23] Michael: Sure. Often what you see today is a naturalism underwriting the progressive agenda and John Lennonās āImagine.ā On the right, you tend to have a hyper supernaturalism wedded to a conservative agenda. And so what do I mean by that? Well, a naturalistic worldview says, of course, God isnāt involved. If God exists, then Heās not involved in this world. He didnāt create it, itās self-evolving and so forth.
A hyper-supernatural worldview says that God works miraculous. You know, to say that God did it means itās a miracle.
[23:34] Jonathan: Yeah.
[23:35] Michael: Whereas in the Bible God does all sorts of things. Mostly, He doesnāt perform miracles. What about all the times when we cut our finger and it heals after a week? What about that? What about a child [who] has a brain bleed in NICU and it resolves in 24 hours. How about those? Those arenāt miracles. People say, āthe miracle of childbirth.ā Thereās no miracle of childbirth; itās just a spectacular example of Godās providence. Thatās part of our problem is weāre looking for God only in the spectacular, only in the extraordinary, only in places where we can point to and say, āOh, God did that.ā
So we canāt explain how somebody recovered from cancer; we say, āWell, God did it, not the doctors.ā
[24:46] Jonathan: Right.
[24:47] Michael: Well, how about God did it and the doctors did it. God did it through the doctors.
[24:52] Jonathan: How much control does God have here?
[24:55] Michael: Right. He has control of everything. Itās not just supernatural events; itās not just miracles. Godās in control of every second, every breath. Every breath that you and I take is under His dominion.
[25:11] Jonathan: That's right. He holds all things together. You know, I hear that phrase a lot, āThat was a God thing. That was a God thing,ā and I always have to stop and say to them, āEverything is a God thing.ā I mean, conversations. The fact that your brain works. The ability to read. The ability to understand and reason. Itās like I hate when you get that narrow scope, as youāre saying. Weāve lost the sublime. Weāve lost an understanding of how muchāyou know, it's almost a deistic view that, you know, God sort ofā
[25:42] Michael: Yes!
[25:43] Jonathan: Heās put some things in place and then He occasionally steps in andā
[25:47] Michael: That's why I argue that actually naturalism and hyper supernaturalism unintentionally conspire with each other against Christianityā
[25:57] Jonathan: Right.
[25:58] Michael: āyou know because, you know, we get to the place where we donāt see God in our ordinary, everyday existence, but only in these punctuated events, and weāve got to raise things. I think we do a lot of pretending. We pretend that things that have an ordinary explanation are miracles because we have to have God in our life. These large swaths of our lives where there are no miracles are upheld by Godās marvelous providence.
[26:40] Jonathan: Right. Amen to that. In the book, one of the fears you mentioned is fear of losing your job. And I think in the book you helpfully distinguish between calling and vocation or job and helping us understand and distinguish the two things. I wonder if we can talk a little bit of bringing clarity to that, because weāre longing for something to put our identity in. Is it a football club? Is it a university? Weāre currently, I donāt know when this will air, but weāre in the middle of March Madness. Who did you pick? What's your university? What's your background?
And vocation is very much one of those things we can put our identity in, and yet I think you talk about the ultimate and the penultimate between calling and vocation. I wonder if you could bring some clarity to that, and then weāll turn to some of the practical outworkings of the division we see after that.
[27:53] Michael: Yeah. Well, one of the things I try to maintain throughout the book is, look, the things Iām talking about are not unimportant. They are legitimate fears. There is a legitimate anxiety. The question is, where do we go with that? But yes, letās affirm it. Itās real, itās a deal, but penultimate not ultimate.
For example, if I am in a circle of people Iāve never met before, weāre having breakfast, and I ask them, āTell me about yourself,ā very ordinarily theyāll say, āWell, Iām a dentist. Iām a ā¦ā
Now okay, thereās an example. That is part of our identity. Vocation is a gift of God; itās a calling. So to say, you know, we shouldnāt place our identity in our vocations, well, not ultimately. That's the problem. Itās a part of our identity, just like being a father is part of my identity. That's a calling. And we have to realize, as Luther said, we have many callings, many vocations during our life. Weāre parents, weāre spouses, weāre children, we are extended family members, weāre dentists, and cleaning movie theaters. We have all kinds of callings/vocations. Sometimes we have a vocation to suffer, to carry a cross. Sometimes we have a vocation to be a friend. We have lots of vocations, and keeping them in balance is very important.
Keeping them penultimate, not ultimate, is my point. My ultimate identity is chosen, redeemed, justified, being sanctified, will be glorified, in union with Christ. That's my identity and that's really who I am. Paul talks about himself as if heās almost collapsed into Jesus. His identity is so bound up with Christ that he can even say his suffering is something he glories in because it shares in Christās suffering. That's my identity; that's where I really find who I am. The other stuff is not just stuff I do, that turns it back into a job. It is part of my identity, but itās penultimate, not ultimate.
[30:57] Jonathan: Well, as we said at the beginning, we see division in so many different places. Weāre, of course, as you know, weāre in another election year, and thatāfear is going to be used as a ā¦ itās going to be weaponized this year, particularly this year, in America. And we have an international audience, so I want to be sensitive, but I know that internationally also they see a lot of American news as well. I think you talk about how, in the book, two sides to the fear coin. You mention both in the book. One side, fear is easily exploited as a motivator. On the other, fear is a weak motivator in the long term. Why is that? Letās kind of unpack that a little bit.
[32:07] Michael: Yeah. I use the analogy of deer who are ā¦ there is this fight or flight that God gave us and the animals as well. Itās purely instinctual, instinctive. You donāt ā¦ Whether youāre a deer or a human being, you donāt really think about, you donāt contemplate, you donāt calculate, you donāt explore what ā¦ You have a car coming towards you, you flee. You get out of its way if you can. But what happens isā
That's adrenaline. That adrenaline rush is just a marvelous gift of Godās providence. The problem is what would happen is deer had this disease of constantly being afraid, every crack of brush of another deer drove them wild running in fear? That's what I see us doing now, and what happens is it works in the short term. If youāre going to cynically use fear to get a herd of people to do what you want them to do, that might work in the short term, but long term, people canāt live like that. Long term, people actually become cynical. They wonāt participate at all. Theyāll just turn it off because āIāve had this scare a thousand times and Iām not going to have it anymore. Iām tired of it.ā It just runs out.
And that's what I think a lot of people are feeling right now with American politics. So Iām not an analyst of American politics by any stretch of the imagination; Iām simply looking at it on the pastoral side. What is driving us to be like the deer in the headlights every five minutes? And itās exhausting us.
[34:33] Jonathan: Yeah.
[34:34] Michael: Each side whipping up the other side against each other. If I donāt win this election, dot, dot, dot. If the other person wins the election, dot, dot, dot. Itās apocalypse not. I especially find offensive any use of God or the Bible or Christ for that fear. Anyone who does that, particularly cynical leaders who donāt even go to church, arenāt professing Christians really, but they use the lingo to gain the nomination of particular groups. When Christians participate in that, they carry crosses to the U.S. Capitol to storm it and talk about hanging the vice president, and theyāre carrying crosses with Bible verses, this is the sort of thing that must just aggravate our Lord and Savior whose name is taken in vain.
And yeah, is that a critique especially of evangelical political conservatives? Yes, it is. Because they are my brothers and sisters closest to me. The secularists arenāt really invoking the name of Jesus and Bible verses and carrying crosses. Iām more worried about evangelicals distorting the gospel than I am about who wins this next election.
[36:54] Jonathan: What is that doing to your testimony to those people who donāt know the Lord? What message is it giving them?
[37:10] Michael: That Christianity is about power.
[37:11] Jonathan: Right, exactly.
[37:12] Michael: Itās not about a cross with God who has all power becoming flesh being spat upon and then being crucified upon a cross, bleeding for our sins. Itās about basically choosing Caesar over Jesus, making Pilate our hero rather than Jesus.
[37:45] Jonathan: I found that chapter, I canāt remember if itās the Christian nationalism chapter or the one before, but it was really helpful the way that you walked out American history in a way that probably a lot of the readers might say, āI donāt know if I understood that.ā Or āI donāt know if I fully understood Thomas Jefferson and his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church in Connecticut.ā Understanding separation of church and state, understanding like how we got to where we are and the creating of even thinking between the British ā¦ French revolution and those different paths that were laid out before us. And even just understanding our own history and how we got to where we are, I think a lot of it is just cast as Christian nation. And I found it helpful the way you distinguish that.
Because I hear this a lot in the church in terms of America being the new Israel, are there blessings that have come with certain things? Sure, fine. Our Constitution is well put together. I love the history of Witherspoon, the Scottish Presbyterian, and you can see some of that in the language that comes out through the Constitution. Again, I think itās helpful to have your historical understanding rather than this reinterpretation that we have now that itās, as you said, itās this feeling like someoneās come in and taken this from us. And now, to use the title of your other book, now weāre at war, right? Itās not a mission field, itās a battlefield. Weāre fighting for the honor of our country. And all that's done is create us and them division and a lack of clarity and a lack of what weāre called to in a mission sense as Christians. Where was I going with that? Who knows? Anyway, I found it helpful.
[40:10] Michael: You said it better. Preach it, brother.
[40:16] Jonathan: Just random thoughts. Just reading your books and regurgitating it to the people. So later on in the book you sort of walk us through the areas where division has come in. So we have Christian nationalism has certainly seeped into churches. Then you have some really helpful, short chapters with issues with LGBTQ+ community, cancel culture, racism. Letās just kind of walk through some of these and help Christians who are listening to this who are saying, I thought this was the right way to handle that situation but youāre saying something else. Letās kind of walk through maybe even just one or two of those. Again, you had a really great illustration under your LGBTQ+ chapter of the young man whose family had sent him to you and you were pastoring him and what happened with all that. If you could tell us a little bit about that, just to help kind of encapsulate what weāre talking about here.
[41:35] Michael: Sure, this brother struggling with homosexuality, his dad was on the board of a prominent evangelical organization, and his pastor had told him that we basically donāt want your influence in the church, so he was considering leaving the faith. But then he read Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, a book I wrote a long time ago, and came out to work at our organization as just a pretext for just hanging out and shepherding this guy. He became a part of our church and a lot of people looked after him and we got a lot back from him.
He went back home, and his pastor said that all this reformed teaching he was getting was heresy and so forth, and no, youāve lost your salvation. Romans says that He gave them over to a depraved mind. So he committed suicide and ā¦
So what is it? Why do you do stuff like that? Well, you do it out of bad theology, to be sure, but also out of fear. There are a lot of churches that just donāt want to deal with it. They donāt want to have this problem. They donāt want to say that they have people in their congregation who are really, really suffering. If youāre a secularist, you donāt suffer from homosexuality. You donāt suffer with gender dysphoria. Only Christians do. And only Christians suffer with greed and envy and malice and other sins that are listed in these same sin lists in the New Testament. You donāt lose your salvation over those.
The key is repentance, right? Weāre called to a life of repentance. Whatever our tendencies are towards particular sins, weāre all corrupt in heart. Weāre sinners and weāre sinned against and we are in a sin-cursed world. And so where do we go with that fear? And then once that fear is solved objectively in Christ, having been justified through faith, we have peace with God. That's an objective fact. With that now as an objective fact, how do I respond to this brother or sister whoās justified just as I am, and who is being sanctified just as I am, but has propensity toward a particular sin that I think is particularly serious, particularly great? How do I love this person? How do I respond to this person?
John Calvin said a pastor needs to learn how to have two voices: one for the sheep and one for the wolves. And what Iāve seen in some very close cases to my own experience, what Iāve seen sometimes is pastors confusing the sheep for wolves and treating them as apostates or as people who, you know, if you really were a Christian, you wouldnāt be suffering with that. Well, theyāre not saying, āI have a right to this sin.ā Theyāre not saying that itās okay. That's why theyāre struggling with itāand theyāre struggling with it in your church.
So one of the surveys, actually a couple of the surveys concluded that about 80 percent of people in the LGBTQ+ community were raised in conservative Roman Catholic or Protestant churches.
[46:39] Jonathan: Give that statistic again because I think we need to hear it again.
[46:42] Michael: I donāt know exact, itās in the 80s, 80 percent.
[46:46] Jonathan: Over 80 percent.
[46:49] Michael: Right. And what's even more striking is the same percentage said that they would come back to church, even if they didnāt change their rules, but listened to them and cared for them. That's what I found amazing. I was glad that they asked ā¦ they added in that survey even if they didnāt change their beliefs but they were kind and they listened and they cared for me.
So if Iām fearful, here again the adrenaline, the deer in the headlights, that's a gift God gave us for fleeing something that is imminently threatening. This is not imminently threatening. If I come to understand that, then Iām not a deer in the headlights; instead, my brother or sister, my friend, parent, Iām someone who is looking out for the best of this person and now I can actually get ahold of myself and think and make judgments and articulate things. And ask questions and get information. That's a big part of it. Itās not all spiritual. People are suffering from mental health disorders, and that's physical, that's brain chemistry. All kinds of things.
People are suffering from sins that have been committed against them in the past. A lot of this is very complicated, and itās not all that personās direct fault. Again, weāre all sinners, sinned against, and live in a sin-cursed world. And all those factors play into what we have to consider when weāre not the deer in the headlights but can sit down with people over a long time, be willing to walk with them over a long time, be willing to read up on things, ask them questions, weāre that interested in them and understanding what theyāre going through, understanding their pain. Itās like if they have cancer weād be at their house with casseroles, but if they have these things, you know ā¦ So letās ā¦ fear of the Lord drives out the fears of everyone and everything else. This is the beginning of wisdom.
[48:52] Jonathan: Exactly. Well, I think we could probably have this conversation for probably another four more hours, which we might do just because weāre having so many technical difficulties. You know, I canāt recommend this book enough. Mike Horton, Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. I told my team I want to re-air this as we get closer to November so that we can all be reminded once again of what weāre called to. Mike, what are you working on at the moment?
[50:35] Michael: Iāve been kind of obsessive compulsive about a project, three volumes with Eerdmans. First volume is coming out in May, titled Shaman and Sage. This is a very different project. Itās the history of spiritual not religious. Where does this come from? You have this divine self within trying to break out of all constraints. And so I trace it all the way back to ancient Greece and to the Renaissance. And then the second volume, Renaissance to the scientific revolution. And then the third volume is covering Romanticism to the present.
[51:31] Jonathan: Oprah.
[51:32] Michael: Exactly.
[51:35] Jonathan: Thatās going to be a massive help for believers, because that's the one we see a lot in those statistics. Yeah, I hear that from quite a few people, spiritual but not religious, or whatever the phrase is. But well, Mike Horton, itās been such a privilege. Iām so grateful for your time and coming on to Candid Conversations and sharing with us.
[52:10] Michael: Jonathan, thank you so much. Itās been a pleasure.
[52:14] Jonathan: Thank you, brother.
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Youāre sitting across from your teenager at the kitchen table. Now that you finally have their undivided attention, you want to talk about an important issue they are facing. Unfortunately, things get tense quickly. Their eyes roll, you get frustrated, and soon they are looking for an escape from this conversation. You sit dumbfounded thinking, "How do I raise my teen to love Christ in a world that is doing everything possible to pull them away?"
In this episode of Candid Conversations, host Jonathan welcomes back Melissa Kruger, Vice President of Discipleship Programming at the Gospel Coalition. Melissa is also an accomplished author, having written multiple books, including āGrowing Together,ā āWalking with God in the Season of Motherhood,ā and the popular childrenās book āWherever You Go, I Want You to Know.ā
During this conversation, Jonathan and Melissa discuss her latest book, āParenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age.ā The book provides practical guidance and biblical insights for parents navigating the challenges of raising teenagers in todayās culture. Melissa shares her personal journey and the inspiration behind writing this important resource.
Listen to this Candid Conversation as Melissa Kruger sheds light on parenting teens with hope, faith, and wisdom. Whether youāre a parent, grandparent, or youth leader, this episode offers valuable insights for nurturing the next generation.
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 248: Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age: Melissa Kruger.
[00:06] Jonathan: Well, today I have a repeat guest. It is Melissa Kruger. She is the vice president of discipleship programming at the Gospel Coalition. She is the author of multiple books, including Growing Together; Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood; and the popular childrenās book, Wherever You Go, I Want You to Know, which we have gotten for our son, and then weāve had his teachers write inscriptions each year, whoever his teacher is. And I think you have a special book that allows for that.
Her husband Mike, who has also been on the podcast, is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary. And they and their three children are in Charlotte, North Carolina. Melissa, thank you so much for coming back onto Candid Conversations.
[00:52] Melissa: Great! Thanks for having me back.
[00:54] Jonathan: Okay, youāve got a new book out called Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age. Now, I imagine this book is flying off the shelves, and youāve probably shattered sales records.
[01:12] Melissa: I donāt think so, right?
[01:14] Jonathan: It should. I think this is something the church hears a lot about and itās always so helpful to have books that are written from a helpful, biblical perspective and giving people the foundations and the equipping and the reminders that we can often forget.
So tell us a little bit about the journey on Parenting With Hope. What got the start of the book?
[01:48] Melissa: I was approached by a publisher who had read my book, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, and they said, āWeād really like you to take some of these principles and apply it to parenting teens. And we want it trade book form, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, is a Bible study for women, I wrote that one for a friend, for her baby shower. It wasnāt intended for publishing; I was writing it for her.
So this one really they came with the question and I was very unsure of myself. Iāve raised three teenagers, and so it was kind of that, ooh, and I was just out of the season. But what I realized when I did Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, I couldnāt write that book now, I think, because Iām not in that moment. The teen years are very fresh to me. I saw tons. I still have one teenager, sheās 17. I have a 17-year-old, a 20-year-old, and a 23-year-old and so still itās fresh to me.
But I also realized no oneās sixty who can write about what they did about cell phones because they didnāt exist. They canāt talk about what did they do with social media. They canāt talk about some of these sports and activities because it was totally different twenty years ago. And so I realized, okay, itās probably a good thing to have someone fresh on the season.
And I also realized, the second thing, I was a high school math teacher in I always say my other life, and so I had taken a lot of teen development classes. And I realized this really did help me in the parenting of teens, like thereās a lot of common grace insights by people who have studied just what works and what doesnāt, and Iāve realized I had those things in my back pocket. And we do that a lot with young children, we read all the developmental milestones, we know what your 2-year-old should be doing, what your 3-year-old should be doing. Whenās the last time you read a developmental milestone about your 9-year-old or your 10-year-old? And we stop being learners of what kids are able to do and what they should be doing and so I wanted to put some of that in the book as well.
[04:15] Jonathan: Okay, so I love how you break down the book. So itās broken down into three parts. You give the basics, which you call āThe Foundations of a Christian Homeā; The Battle: Fighting for the Better Portionā; which weāll get into that. And then āThe Blessing: Cultivating a Home Where Teens Thrive.ā Talks us through a little bit of the Part 1.
[04:44] Melissa: I might come off as, well, we all know this, right?
[04:48] Jonathan: Right. If youāre in the church, you should know and understand that. Butā
[04:51] Melissa: Exactly. Exactly. And in a lot of ways this is being a Christian 101. But I remind parents of it because I think sometimes we get so bogged down with all the things weāre not doing as parents that I want to remind them the most important thing you do as a human is be in Godās Word, be in prayer, and be in the church. Doing that is going to already set you ahead of parents all around the world. I mean, that is such a gift to your child to be a parent who is regularly in-taking from the Bible.
Why? Because the Bible is not just another book on the shelf; itās actually divine wisdom. We have the ability to tap into divine wisdom. And then secondly we have not just divine wisdom, we have divine help because we can call on God to do what we cannot do, we cannot save our child, we cannot change our child. We cannot make them do really much of anything, but God can work in ways that we canāt understand.
And then the community of the church is just something that, I mean, I think weāre seeing with the epidemic of teen loneliness and anxiety and isolation, all these things. The church is this institution that, guess what, it answers that. Itās this welcoming place where you have 80-year-olds and you have 8-year-olds. And so I donāt think we can talk about parenting without talking about what's the foundation of our hope. Itās actually that Godās Word is true, and living in light of Godās Word is hopeful, and weāre not left alone on the journey. So that's the Battle. The battle really talks about our battles. And again, this is a book about being the parent of a teen. Itās not a book about how to make your teen perfect. If that book exists, that's theā
[06:54] Jonathan: If it does, you should burn it.
[06:56] Melissa: Yeah, that's the Holy Spiritās job is to change us and make us different. And so the second part is the battle, I think we often think is sex, drugs, rock and roll or some other things weāre trying to prevent our teen from. I would say itās actually good things robbing us of the best things. The battle is with our own idolatry. As parents, we are all coming into this game with hopes and dreams for our kids, and sometimes those dreams turn idolatrous. I focus on scholarship and achievement, on sports and activities, and then on social acceptance. I think those are the cultural idols we have in the West that are pressing upon us as parents, and we have to battle about all of those.
[07:38] Jonathan: And that's what I love about the book is that itās not prescriptions, right? When people are struggling with their kids, what do they want? Just tell me what to do so that this will stop or so I can take this away, right? And I think the way that your book is written is that itās not about if you do A, B will happen. Now, thereās a little bit of element of that because you just mentioned the foundations earlier, which is, well, you really need to be doing these practices, but you donāt necessarily think, oh, being in church and being in the Word and being in prayer, you donāt necessarily feel the direct correlation to your parenting, but it is there.
I have friends who have raised their kids the exact same way and one rebels and the other one is a blessing to their family. And then itās like, what did we do wrong? Your husband was speaking yesterday about the paradox of God is sovereign over all things, and yet weāre still called to be good parents. And so thereās that. We donāt fully understand the mystery of that, but we know what weāre called to, and so we have to walk it out.
[09:14] Melissa: That's right. As a parent, I am called to fight my idolatry. Iām actually not called to control my child. And so often what you see if we go into control mode when weāre fearful, and the Bible says trust and obey. And I would say obey and trust. And so you follow Godās call and then you trust. You trust that youāre doing everything you can to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel in front of the Lord and in front of your kids, and then you have to trust.
And you will only have the ability to trust if youāre building on the foundation. So this is where it always goes back to that foundation. And I'm talking about how to be a human, honestly. I mean, if you want to know how to succeed in your place of work, oh, you need the Word, you need prayer, you need the church. If you want to know how to be single in the life of the church, you need the Word, you need prayer, you need the church. But I think I say it again and again because itās Psalm 1. Yeah, I mean, āBlessed is the man who doesnāt like in ā¦ who doesnāt sit ā¦ā all that stuff. Oh, what does he do? āHis delight is in the law of the Lord, and on it he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by a stream. Whatever he does prospers.ā This is wisdom for life. And so I definitely think we have to start there, and then we have to be battling our own idols.
And then the last section on the blessing is how do we create homes of acceptance, availability, and affection? Those words have to be in our world today. Acceptance does not mean an acceptance of sin, but it means an acceptance of who they are. And what I mean by that is we see a lot of curated children. And what I mean by that is parents trying to make the perfect child who plays the sport, who plays the instrument, who has an amazing GPA, who gets into the Ivy Leagues and all this stuff because that's a representation of me is what weāre really trying to do.
[11:12] Jonathan: Right. Itās a reflection, yeah.
[11:13] Melissa: So rather than saying, you know, my kidās not that great at school, but I can teach hard work. Even if theyāre not going to be a lawyer or a doctor, that's okay. And so that's what I mean by acceptance, accepting who the Lord is creating them to be and letting that glorify Him, whatever it might be.
[11:33] Jonathan: Yeah, thereās a lot of this element of caught versus taught, right? So especially as you think about the idolatry and what you prioritize in your life, your kids are by default looking at you, watching you. Youāre one of the greatest sources of influence on them, and so they are going to model themselves after what mom and dad prioritize. And the funny thing is that when parents look down the track they say, āWhy are they like this?ā And itās like, sometimes itās a little bit of look in the mirror. You know, what were they catching, even if you were teaching in a different trajectory and direction.
Okay, so acceptance. What about availability?
[12:17] Melissa: Yeah. I talk about this. I say you want to be available but you want to understand your limitations. Look, I mean, parents cannot be at everything. And I actually believe itās helpful for our kids to know that they are not the center of our universe. They do not have the gravitational weight to bear us, I like to say. Like the Earth cannot support the Sun revolving around it, it was never intended to, we are not created to revolve around our children. We are created to revolve around God, and we are helping them do the same.
And kids who grow up in a home where the parent is rooted and grounded in the Lord, that takes an amazing burden off of them. Youāve heard the phrase āYouāre only as happy as your least happy child.ā I think that is like poor least-happy child. No. My contentment and joy, where are they supposed to come from? Theyāre supposed to be rooted in the Lord. Why are we supposed to be content with what we have? Because He has said, āNever will I leave or forsake you.ā That's where our contentment rests. And we have to be people fighting for that as parents, to free our kids up from our own maybe tendency to put our hopes and dreams in them.
[13:36] Jonathan: And then affection. A home of warmth.
[13:39] Melissa: I read an article somewhere recently. I canāt remember where it was; it was in the secular paper, and they said, really what you do as a parent doesnāt matter, but if you love them, that makes a difference. And I was kind of like, huh. That's really interesting because I do think thereās a lot to that. I think, you know, itās a little bit empty because I think loveā
[14:03] Jonathan: Well, oneās usually reflected in the other, right?
[14:05] Melissa: Yeah. Exactly. And you need truth to guide what love is, so thereās that. But I did once hearāthis was on the Oprah Winfrey Show a million years ago when that show was still onāshe was interviewing I believe it was Toni Morrisson. And Toni Morrisson said one thing she had learned when a child walks into the room, she said, light up when that child walks in the room. And she said what kids tend to get when you walk into the room is your critical gaze. They tend to get, huh, your shirtās not tucked in. Hey, make sure youāre getting ready for this.
And this gets even worse in the teen years, because look, theyāre cute when theyāre walking in at two, so you might light up just because theyāre so cute.
[14:50] Jonathan: Itās worn off, yeah.
[14:52] Melissa: Yeah, when theyāre walking in pimply and smelly and dirty, and they havenāt showered in a week, you still need to light up when they walk. And I think thereās something about that that will translate for the rest of their lives. That they know āI am deeply loved.ā Light up even when theyāve done something wrong. Our correction should not be coldness. Our correction can still be full of warmth.
And so we want to light up when these people walk in the room because theyāre made in the image of God. They have been given to us for this time to raise, and so we want to shower them with affection. And there can be wrong views of affection like trying to buy them. There are wrong ways. But Iām just talking about genuine love and interest in a person; that's always going to be a great basis for a child to go into the world with.
[15:42] Jonathan: Okay, letās talk a little bit about how the gospel shapes our approach in parenting. What are the biblical principles that should guide us as weāre raising children?
[15:58] Melissa: The first is that Iām the oldest sinner in the room usually, so Iām expecting my 12-year-old to have their whole act together at twelve. Wow, that's pretty ungracious of me, right, because here I am at fifty and I donāt have my act together. And so I think that one of the ways that parents can lead is to be the first to apologize. I always say my response is my responsibility. And so if Iāletās say a kidās done something wrong, but I manage their wrongness by yelling and losing my temper and being impatient and unkind, Iāve got to own that. That's on me. I can still hold them to a standard while holding myself to a standard, and so we have to do that.
And so I say one way grace-based homes begin is by being the chief apologizer in your home. Own it. And you know what? The kids will learn. They will learn from that and they will be able to give good apologies in their life. And you will benefit from it. Iāve had all of my kids come to me and be like, āHey, Iām sorry I acted that way about that.ā They did it on their own accord. I think it just became the conversation of the household that was safe to do. It was going to be met with love; it wasnāt going to be met with the silent treatment, all of those things.
And so I think a home with grace is going to be a home with apologies. Itās going to be a home that accepts that failure is going to happen. I mean, the Lordās Prayer presupposes, āforgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,ā so thereās going to be sin. Weāre living flesh on flesh in these homes. And so it presupposes that weāre going to need grace, but it also presupposes that there is a standard. So we do not lower standards. We keep the standards, but we offer correction when the standards has not been kept, and we offer love and grace in those moments as well.
[17:57] Jonathan: Well, and itās a requirement of being a disciple of Jesus is being a forgiver. And yeah, why not start at homeānot just forgiving, but asking for forgiveness. And I think youāre right, it sets the tone for the family. But I think we can get caught up in, well, Iām the parent and Iāve got to be the one in control and in charge and Iām just giving directives to the little ones. Itās hard, right? I mean, itās hard to admit to a little child that youāve wronged them. Because you just want to say, who are you? Who are you to hold me accountable? But itās the Lordās holding us accountable.
Letās elaborate a little bit on principles of prescriptions. Weāve talked a little bit about that, but as that relates to parenting.
[18:52] Melissa: Yeah. I definitely think your principles in parenting can stay very much the same as kids go from two to twenty, meaning certain principles like, oh, my child is a sinner in need of grace. That's a principle. My childās a sinner and needs correction. That's a principle. Now, how I go about the practice of that correction is going to change greatly when theyāre two from when theyāre twelve, and if we donāt make those changes, weāre going to find ourselves with very frustrated teenagers.
And so one example I like to say is when your 2-year-old makes a mistake, normally you need to offer correction right away, so if they do something wrong, they need it immediately because theyāre not going to remember tomorrow what youāre talking about.
[19:36] Jonathan: That's right exactly.
[19:37] Melissa: Theyāre in a different little universe where every moment is a new moment. Whereas with your 12-year-old, when they come in hot, and you know we all see 12-year-olds come in hot, theyāre slamming doors, theyāre in a mood, their hormones are going whatever. Right then is probably actually not the best time to offer correction or even confront them with, hey, you were really rude to me.
I like to say if my friend came in and slammed the door my first question would not be like, āHey, that's disrespectful to me.ā My first question would be, āHey, how are you doing? Is everything okay?ā Or if my husband came in. Like Iād ask a question. And I think our teens need that from us. They need us to live with them in an understanding way, and often weāre real caught up in our pride and how we deserve to be talked to. And that's just very us-centered versus, āHey, is everything okay?ā
And maybe even to just say, later in the day, like 6:00 PM, 7:00 PM, when theyāve had some time to cool off, to go in and say, āHey, you came in, you seemed upset today. Do you want to talk about it?ā They may say yes, they may say no. And then later on, things will soften. They will soften to be able to say, āWhat would have been a good way to come in today?ā That's a better time to have that conversation. And it may even be the next week. That's a better way to have that conversation than right away.
So I think we had immediate kind of discipline when they were young, and itās really about applying wisdom to how and what weāre going to correct. Thankfully, we do not have someone following us around all day correcting every little thing we do. I think sometimes parents of teens think, Iāve got four years left. Iāve got to get this kid all sorted.
[21:20] Jonathan: To be ready for the world.
[21:21] Melissa: You donāt. If you saw my teenās bedroom, youād be like, āWow, sheās a terrible parent. They are a complete and utter wreck.ā And I just chose that was a battle I wasnāt going to fight. But certain things, I wanted them to be truthful with me, I wanted them to have character, I wanted us to be able to have conversations. And if that meant I had to deal with messy floors, I was going to deal with messy floors on there. And they are. They lived up to that low expectation.
[21:48] Jonathan: Iām sure they love hearing that. So youāve introduced a topic that I wanted us to discuss, which is those stages of development and how do we parent differently when theyāre children versus teens. At what age is there a transformation? So when your child is little, youāre really in kind of a protection mode in terms of what they consume media-wise or literature, whatever it is, right? We have a responsibility for protecting them and not just exposing them to all the horrible things out there.
But as they get older, you and I talked about this in the beginning, but parents can tend to lean into one or the other camp, which is keeping the hyper bubble wrap around their child and never letting them be exposed to anything, or essentially letting them go out to the wolves at twelve, thirteen, whatever, and they are kind of almost drowning in āI need help. I wish someone would have kind of held my hand a little bit here.ā That's a nuanced question, I know, but if we could talk about it in some generalitiesāand you can even use your own children as an example. Help parents who are at the tween period in their kidsā lives. How do they navigate that helpfully?
[23:21] Melissa: Yeah, I think that transition is tough and itās full of bumps and bruises. I called it in the book, I likened it to driving a stick-shift car. You have to be letting off the clutch the same time you're pressing the gas, but as youāre learning, weāre all going to stall and that's pretty normal. But I would just say as theyāre heading into these years, teens still need our involvement, but they do not need our over-involvement. And so as a parent, I think we really have to step back and say, āOkay, Iām going to be involved. Iām going to make sure theyāre not out drinking; theyāre not out doing illegal activities that could actually harm them. But I am not going to check their homework online.ā
Okay, see this was not even an option when I was a teacherāI donāt know why parents are doing this. So I always think back to when I was teaching the parents never saw the grades until the grades came out. We had a midterm grade thing. I have people in my life who are checking their kidsā grades constantly, and Iām likeā
[24:36] Jonathan: I didnāt even know you could do that, actually. Iāve got little kids, so Iām, yeah, weāre not in that camp yet.
[24:41] Melissa: Well, come the teen years, theyāre finding out their kid missed one homework assignment and then theyāre all over them about it. Iām like, just let them bear that consequence. Let them bear the consequence of a zero.
[24:52] Jonathan: That's a little bit of the helicopter/lawnmower parent mentality, right?
[24:57] Melissa: That's right. And what happens is then that child never knows what itās like to deal with failure, and they actually need what I call safe failure. Because guess what? We all fail at things. Like we all make mistakes, we all do dumb things along the way. You want to protect them from huge failure, like youāre going to go to jail for this. But even things that we know are particularly damaging for their souls. So we want to protect them as best we can and have good rules in our home; we donāt want rule-less homes; but the over-correction of being so over-involved.
If you have teenagers, they should be packing their own lunch. They should be getting themselvesāI donāt wake any of my teens up, never have. They get themselves up, they knew to be at the family table for devotions at the time we always met. They could be responsible for them. And I never regret letting them be responsible for them. And so some of that is letting go of control and letting them, like again, like their room. Their rooms. Sometimes they did have to clean them.
[26:09] Jonathan: Youāve got to live in it. Theyāre the ones who have to live in it, right?
[26:11] Melissa: And they have to ā¦ And they really will own it if we let them. Another big thing was we started early with our kids having them do chores and clean up the kitchen every night. But what Mike and I had to do, we had to leave the room, because yes, they would argue. Yes, they would get mad at one another. Yes, they would say, āI donāt want to do it this way. Yes, it was excruciatingly slow and not well done. And Iād come in and Iād look at the counter and I thought, yeah, youād feel the grit still on the counter, kids, and then do it again. Yāall get it right.
And then weād walk out because I couldnāt handle the slowness at which they did it, but if I had not given them the space to do it and fail and not do it perfectly, theyād never learn. Where now they come home and they all know how to clean the kitchen. They know how toāand that's a gift when they go to college because they [overlapping voices] because my kids are like, āMy roommatesāā
[27:04] Jonathan: And their future spouses.
[27:06] Melissa: Yeah. āMy roommates donāt know how to clean the kitchen.ā
[27:09] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, letās steer into some of the battle things that are taking place. We, without having to explain, we live in a secular culture. How can parents maintain hope and raise their teens to follow Christ in just the age and day in which we live where thereās the social pressures on sexuality and defining truth and those sorts of things. How do you kind of help navigate that water?
[27:53] Melissa: Yeah, I think the earlier you can begin, the better. And some of this starts by having conversations about faith with your kids as young as you can. Mike and I were big believers in the catechism. There are different versions. We use the childrenās catechism. And every night at the family table we did it. What I love about a catechism is the kids talk; itās not just the parents talking. So itās about who made you? God. What else did God make? All things. Why did God make you and all things? For His glory.
Okay, youāve already set their framework in such a better place than most kids walking into elementary school just because they know theyāre made in the image of God and that theyāre made to glorify Him. So these things can start early. I think having those conversations along the way, and just, again, this is what we valued in our homes. We have to start valuing them young because if you start coming to your kid with, āHey, Godās Word is importantā at age fifteen by you havenāt modeled that by the way you live your life or by how youāve been in it yourself, itās going to be hard to convince them that they should follow this ancient book.
So I would say the best way to combat culture is to have the culture that Scripture encourages us to in the home. And to really know that what's happening in your home is actually what has the greatest impact on your kids, not the world, not their teachers, not their friends. Actually the studies show over and over again parentalāwhat we do, which is kind of terrifying, we all should own itāwhat we do in the home is the biggest impact on how they are going to view certain things. It does not mean they will all come to faith. You can do everything right. We know itās the Spirit only that awakens peopleās hearts. But thatā
[29:48] Jonathan: Which takes a little bit of the pressure off in that category.
[29:52] Melissa: Yes, exactly. But there are things weāre teaching them like hard work and doing a job, knowing how to do a chore. Those are things that even non-Christians know how to work hard, and even non-Christians can live in certain outwardly moral ways that we can be trying to shape and mold our kids into, in prayer that the Spirit would make their hearts alive in a lot of ways.
So I think we can be really fearful of culture. I think thereās a lot to be concerned about. But what I will say is that when the Spirit opens our eyes, they can see, wow, culture is really empty. So my kids, I think they grew up in Christian school, but theyāve both been at large secular colleges and they just havenāt been attracted to some of the worldly things because I think they know that, hey, the fellowship, the friendship of true believers is way better than this false, oh, I have to be drunk and do all these things for you to be my friend. Yeah, I donāt think itās been as enticing because theyāve actually experienced good fellowship with believers throughout their lives and theyāve seen the benefit of that. So I always try to say fight the bad by giving them the better.
[31:09] Jonathan: Yeah, I love that. Okay, two more areas I want us to just quickly dive into. One is navigating technology and social media, which again is one of the battles. And the other one is dealing with doubts. And so letās talk about, I mean, technology is everywhere. Social media abounds. How do we navigate this? Maybe some practical tips, setting boundaries, that sort of thing. How did you and Mike do it?
[31:41] Melissa: Yeah. I mean, the first boundary is yourself. If youāre glued to your phone, okay, your kidās going to be glued to their phone. So that's the first one. Letās just go ahead and say it. And I will say this: I think itās a lot harder for you raising kids now. When I had young kids, I didnāt have a smartphone. I mean, can you imagine the difference? I could not, at a restaurant, just take my little cell phone and say, āHere, watch whatever showās popular.ā
[32:07] Jonathan: Yeah, keep āem busy.
[32:08] Melissa: Yeah. And so Iām so thankful. We had to deal with those awful restaurant moments when theyāre losing their minds and having a fit.
[32:20] Jonathan: That's why we donāt go to restaurants.
[32:22] Melissa: Or just not go. Sometimes itās like fast food because that's where you can easilyā¦
[32:28] Jonathan: In and out.
[32:29] Melissa: And so I think to be aware that what youāre doing with your phone and devices in the young years is greatly going to impact the older years. And then the other thing I would just say, as the statistics have come ināAnd the hopeful thing I have for your age, I think by the time your age, those kids get to high school, I think there will be new rules in high schools. Itās hard right now. I view the cell phone and social media like smoking. The high school that I went to had inner courtyards, and you were allowed to go out and smoke during the middle of the day. Not when I was there. By the time I was there, inner courtyard, there as no smoking. I mean, think about it you know, airplanes, you used to be able to smoke on them, right?
[33:11] Jonathan: Iāve been on one of those planes, actually, when I was a kid.
[33:13] Melissa: Exactly. And now theyāve realized, oh, these arenāt innocentā
[33:19] Jonathan: It affects everyone in the plane, whether you want it or not, and the curtainās not going to keep it back.
[33:24] Melissa: Exactly. And they would no more let a bunch of kids be sitting in the inner courtyard of a high school smoking now. Well, I believe, I really do believe what the studies are showing us, how bad it is for kids and their mental health. I believe one day cell phones are not going to be allowed in schoolāhopefully by the time your kids get there. I think they will not be allowed in middle and high school, so it might help parents.
But today, parents have to navigate those waters without help from culture, and itās really hard. And so what I would say for every hour your kids spend on their cell phone or device, they will be less happy, and you have to reckon with that. The studies are in. Every further hour they spend on a device, they will be that much less happy. They will be more lonely, they will be more depressed, they will be more anxious. And so weāve got to deal with that reality as we parent, and the most loving thing we can do is to help our kids not be glued to their phones all the time.
[34:21] Jonathan: Yeah, I would imagine it fosters more of that comparative, yeah, right. My friendās pictureās on whatever social media platform and Iām comparing myself at a constant rate, versus when I was a kid or teenager, it was like just what you could see in front of you.
[34:40] Melissa: Right. You didnāt know that you were actually left out of the party until a week or two later. Now instantly youāre sitting home on a Friday night and you see the party that you werenāt invited to.
[34:54] Jonathan: I can only imagine navigating that. Okay, doubt. That's ā¦ This is a period in kidsā life where doubt is more prevalent, more frequent. How should parents be dealing with questionsāand I heard Mike give a great answer to some of this yesterday. But how do we address the question without dismission it, but also not wanting to just give the answer straightaway is kind of what Mike was saying yesterday.
[35:37] Melissa: That's right. I think so often we hear a question and we jump to fear. Fear leads to control. So rather, the kid says something like, āYeah, Iām not sure I believe that.ā And then we hyper jump on that and give them a three-point outline of why they should believe what we believe. That is not a conversation and that is not what your teen needs. What I would say when they say, āYeah, Iām not sure. Itās seems really ā¦ That view of whatever seems really mean,ā āOkay, tell me why you think that. Tell me where you hear that. What do your friends think about it?ā
Be curious about them. You already know actually what you think about whatever the thing is, but what they need to hear from you is that you actually are willing to listen as theyāre trying to sort it out. And itās going to make sense. Kids have really small perspectives on things. I did. When I was that age, I had all sorts of bad ideas about things. Theyāre working through it, so work through it with them but donāt ā¦ I just donāt think itās very helpful to lecture them at that point. I think itās good ā¦ We want to have a conversation is what I keep saying.
A conversation will allow more availability to give your opinion when you are curious about what they are thinking rather than just jumping in. And the reality is, again, me lecturing them is probably not going to prove my point. But as we have conversations, Iām going to start to understand where theyāre struggling, what theyāre struggling with, and we can keep having that conversation and it makes them a lot more receptive.
[37:26] Jonathan: Yeah. I found that helpful. Mike was saying yesterday his tendency was to just give the answer straightaway. Heās got the PhD and all of the qualifications and credentials, but kids donāt really care. Itās like, āAll right, Dad, just chill.ā And I get your point. And I think he said this yesterday, which is about let them kind of sit in the doubt for a little bit. Rather than just giving the quick, immediate response, let them wrestle with it, because this is probably the early formations of them moving out of the family faith and into a personal faith. And I think youāve hit it on the head there with opening the dialog so it can be an ongoing conversation so that when they do go off to university or whatever it is and they are presented with ideas and philosophies, they can say, āIāve already talked about that.ā And I realize here all the fallacies or issues that come up with that, I think that's really helpful. But youāre right, I think we do, we tend to go to fear and we start thinking down the track what could happen if I donāt resolve this immediately.
[38:43] Melissa: And to realize that conversation continues. It doesnātā
[38:45] Jonathan: Yeah, right.
[38:46] Melissa: All of our kids have called us. They normally call Mike, and theyāll Facetime. I mean, Emma has been on the Facetime with like ten of her friends, and theyāre like, āWe have a Bible question for you, Dad.ā And I think because it felt like a conversation they actually continued the conversation.
And Iāll also say this. Itās okay to not know. Because I get it. Like, look, itās really convenient when you have a husband who is a New Testament scholar and can answer some of these questions.
[39:14] Jonathan: We all just need Mikeās phone number.
[39:15] Melissa: Exactly. But I will say this. There are plenty of times heās like, āYeah, that's a really confusing passage. Iām not sure what that means.ā I mean, they are wildly unimpressed with his knowledge base sometimes, and so itās always nicely humbling.
But heās very comfortable saying, āI donāt know.ā And I think we all should be comfortable saying, āI donāt know,ā and saying, āHey, letās find out together.ā Look, there are pastors out there who are waiting for calls like this. They have to deal with really hard issues sometimes, but they went to school to answer your biblical questions, and so a lot of times pastors are really eager to say, āOh, I can help you with that.ā
[39:52] Jonathan: I get those from time to time, and sometimes there are the ones where, especially from little ones, and I think, how do I take what I know and put it in a way that youāll understand it. That takes some work.
[40:07] Melissa: That's the best theological classroom you can ever be in right there.
[40:10] Jonathan: Exactly. So weāve asked some parents of teens to submit some questions that theyāre wrestling with, so weāll do a little lightning round of questions here.
[41:06] Jonathan: This ties us back to what we mentioned earlier. This is kind of a newer thing. I mean, itās always been around, but itās more prevalent probably post-COVID, post-invention of the iPhone where kids are isolated. They are less relational than you and I would have been because that was all we had was relational collateral, personal interaction. Now kids can interact digitally and immediately and so thereās probably a heightened level of self-consciousness, and that includes just appearance through social media and that sort of thing.
So now going into a new setting with real people and real interactions must be a challenge. So what is some advice for the parent whoās struggling with a teenager whoās going through that?
[42:08] Melissa: The first thing I always say is itās good to offer sympathy to them, āHey, this is hard. I can remember what it was like to go into the lunch room and it be super awkward. Like who am I going to sit with?ā We all have that. I still have that feeling sometimes. Iām in situations many times where Iām the only woman in a scenario, and Iām like, hmm, which table of all men ā¦ am I going to sit at? And it feels awkward.
And so sometimes just them knowing that you feel it too is helpful. But I think itās also helpful to equip them and to say, hey, when youāre in a situation like that, other people are probably feeling nervous too, and so itās good to go in with three questions so that you have them on your mind when youāre walking into an awkward situation. It can be a question like, heyāletās picture the school lunchtimeāwhat's your next class after this? That anybody can answer. Itās pretty easily, yeah, whatever.
Second one, you know, hey, where do you live? Or something like that, maybe something Iām thinking as Iām thinking in a business context, where are you from? But just some easily accessible questions that kids can answer. It could be, Are you going to the game this weekend? Whatever it might be so they feel equipped to actually reach out to someone else with a question and that can help conversation start.
[43:27] Jonathan: This oneās sort of on a similar vein but on a different level. āHow do our teens manage the social rejection when you are following Christ?ā
[43:44] Melissa: Yeah. I think it is really helpful to put before our kids that we are stranger and aliens in this world. And you know my kids go to a ā¦ they were blessed to go to a Christian school, so they did not have to feel it at the level certain kids are going to have. But they did still get teased. All, especially, for being, oh, youāre the professorās daughter. When sheās in Bible class, even the teacher looks to her. āWell, would your dad agree with this?ā
[44:14] Jonathan: Oh dear. I had a little bit of that, too, with my father being a pastor. What would your dad say?
[44:18] Melissa: Itās the awkward ā¦ you have to be the super-spiritual one in every instance. And we just talk some about feeling a little bit like you donāt belong is actually a good sign. And that means weāre not home yet.
[44:36] Jonathan: Great reminder.
[44:37] Melissa: Yeah. When we talk about home is heaven, it makes sense.
[44:43] Jonathan: Oof. āHow do you parent a child that doesnāt realize their friends are unhealthy for them?ā These might all have a little bit of a sigh.
[44:54] Melissa: Itās tough. Iām a big believer in question-asking rather than telling. So hey, it seems like John did this and this and this. Do you think a good friend would be like in this scenario? What would you want him to do in that scenario? And then sometimes they can start to uncover, hey, this isnāt the best type of person. But it always good to maybe pause and ask why are they turning to this kind of friendship? And I mean, yeah, again, praying that the Spirit would waken their hearts to see the destructiveness. Always be praying. In every one of these scenarios, let me just sayā
[45:37] Jonathan: It starts with prayer.
[45:38] Melissa: It starts with prayer.
[45:39] Jonathan: Iām with you. This is good, and this question actually comes into one of your chapters in your book. āHow do you prevent sports from becoming an idol, especially in regards to travel?ā
[45:58] MELISSA: Yeah, itās tough. I would manage it very carefully and just remember as good as your kid is, they probably will not play in college, and even more likely are they to create a career out of this. But you do want them to create a career and a life out of being a church member. So guard your church time. It doesnāt mean you never miss. Weāve all missed church for various reasons, whether itās travel or just vacation. You couldnāt get to church for some reason.
You could say if youāre traveling itās a great opportunity to take your kid to other churches. My kids really benefited from seeing other church traditions when we traveled. So it was great for them. One Sunday we went to a Baptist church, and they had grown up Presbyterian, so they only saw babies get baptized. It was Easter. It was spring break, so we were traveling, and they had this full-immersion baptism. Well, my kids were on the edge of their seats, and they were like, āwhat is happening here?ā So for them it was great. It was a great conversation to say, āOh, this is how they do it.ā Those are great conversations to have.
[47:05] Jonathan: āCourtship dance. How to handle it now.ā Thereās not a lot of Scripture on dating. How do you all navigate that with your kids?
[47:59] Melissa: We have had very little experience in this, not because we have had rules, not because of any other reason than our kids have just not dated. I think the benefit of maybe going to a small school is theyāre like, weāve known these people since we were five. Iām not going to date them. My daughter is getting ready to get married, and she is marrying a guy she knew all through college. They met at Chapel Hill and were friends for three years and their senior year starting dating. I will fully admit, it was as easy as it could have been, and he is delightful and weāre so glad theyāre getting married.
So what I would say with my lack of experience is I do believe that rather than have rules itās better to have conversations in this area. And so when your kid comes home to you at fifteen and says, āI really like this kid,ā one, be glad theyāre willing to talk to you about it. Secondly, say, āWhat do you like about them? Tell me whatās great about them.ā Be curious rather than controlling. If I could impress anything, be curious about your kid rather than control them.
And so I would just say itās good to have standards. When youāre talking about sexuality standards, you need to have those conversations whether theyāre dating or not. So that should be happening well before theyāre dating. way before the teen years. So Iām just assuming that in these conversations those have happened beforehand.
But then I think modeling good friendships. If your kids are developing good friendships, itās a big precursor to developing a good and strong marriage and good and strong dating. But I think the main thing you want to do is keep the conversation open. Hold your tongue and listen.
[49:45] Jonathan: Keeping a distraction-free family. Sort of like no cell phones at the table kind of thing?
[49:57] Melissa: Yeah. You know itās just funny. We didnāt have some of those rules, I guess. It was just understood that that's what we were doing. And I would say a big thing I would probably highlight is if youāre going to watch a movie, all watch the same movie. And so, yeah, that means youāre going to watch a lot of movies you donāt really want to watch as a parent, but Iād rather have all five of us in the den together watching a movie that maybe everyone had to compromise on, than all of us in separate rooms, watching what we want to watch.
[50:32] Jonathan: And I know Mikeās favorite movies are horror films, right?
[50:35] Melissa: No, he has to watch those alone. Heās not allowed to watch those with us.
[50:39] Jonathan: I was going to say. Hereās a good one. āHow do you balance contentment and complacency and still encourage hard work?ā
[50:50] Melissa: I think contentment goes right alongside with hard work. But complacency is a little different. So I think you know your child. Some children are going to need to be told, hey, you need to slow down. Some kids are going to need to be told, you need to speed up. And that's okay. But youāre going to have to know your individual child to know if theyāre not living up to who God has made them to be or if theyāre trying to prove something to the world. Youāre going to have to know that better as a parent, so itās probably going to be different for every kid.
[51:27] Jonathan: This is similar to different types of child, but āHow do you parent the high-achieving, focused child, how to best support their talents?ā And then weāll do the other side of that.
[51:37] MELISSA: Yeah. I think with the high-achieving, focused child, itās really good to make sure theyāre not putting their worth and value in their performance. And so youāre going to have to just work with them on that and walk through that with them and encourage them that they are beloved not because of what they do but because of who they are in that. Because theyāre going to fail one day, and then how you deal with their failure and mistakes is really important because those kids arenāt going to be used to it, and they really need it. They need to feel what it feels like to fail sometimes. And theyāre going to be really uncomfortable in that moment. And so walking through that with them graciously is really important.
[52:20] Jonathan: Flip side, I suppose, is āHow do you parent the low-achieving, unfocused child?ā
[52:27] Melissa: Yeah, I mean, that's a really hard one, I have to admit.
[52:30] Jonathan: Yeah, because itās different.
[52:31] Melissa: Itās totally different, especially if itās a child like āI know this child can do things.ā One, if it is a boy, let me just say they really will get it together eventually. A lot of boys, their frontal lobeāgreat book called The Teenage Brain. You should read it. Itās written by a neuroscientist who had two boys. Itās great. I mean, their brains really are taking long to develop. I taught high school, and let me tell you, the boys were not winning in high school. They forgot their stuff, the reason they had Bās rather than Aās was not because they were not smart enough, itās because they did not turn in their homework.
They really will, by their junior and senior year, developmentally get it together. Itās the girls are just developing earlier. Some of the front-lobe stuff is connecting earlier. Itās biological. So yes, have expectations, but just know that with your son you might have to remind him five times, āHey, did you pack your lunch today? Did you pack your lunch?ā Donāt pack it for him, but you might have to remind him more on those things.
[53:35] Jonathan: āWhen they experience rejection or seek acceptance from the wrong sources, how do we navigate that?ā And I think thatās one of your ā¦ that's one of your chapters.
[53:47] Melissa: Yeah, I think that different again this one is just going to have to be prayer. Because it shares a little bit about where their heart is leaning. I mean, you can see this in some kids. Some kids just always want to be on the edge, and you can see it. I think this is where you pray and you do trust that the Lord will somehow use this season in their life.
But also I think to ask questions like, āHey, why do you want to do that? What's going on? Why is that attractive?ā And itās difficult if youāre not that type of personality to even understand. Like I donāt want to get burned, so I stay way, far away from a fire, right? But some people are just drawn to the fire and they want to get close up to it. So sometimes itās good to just ask, āHey, why do you want this? What's going on?ā Again, I think with each kid itās going to be a little bit different, so itās important to ask what's going on with their hearts and to keep probing and keep praying.
[54:50] Jonathan: Yeah. All right, Iāll make this the last one. āWhat is the Krugerāsā take on how much we are requiring church attendance, devotions, spiritual practices versus giving teens the freedom of choice?ā
[55:03] Melissa: That's interesting. So youāre saying how much we require it versus how much we just let them make that choice.
[55:12] Jonathan: In terms of family devotion. Churchgoing I guess is part of the question.
[55:22] Melissa: That's a good question. That makes sense. So Iām totally fine with āyouāre going to go to church on Sundayā just because I donāt make school a choice. If you can go to school all day, you can go to church, so that's just fine with me. If they donāt believe, Iām like, āThat's fine, you donāt have to believe, but youāre going to go to church because we go to church, just like youāre going to go to school,ā and Iām okay with that.
When I comes to family devotions, that was again just something we had always done, so it was never a new thing. It would be like my kids saying, āOh, all of a sudden I donāt want to brush my teeth.ā āHuh, really? Youāve brushed your teeth since you were two. You want to stop now.ā
Some of these habits, when you can start them young, they just donāt know any different. My big hint to young parents is they only know the home you make normal for them. And so they donāt know that no other familyās having family devotions. When it comes to personal Bible reading, that was something I did not force at all. We gave our kids Bibles, they saw our habits and our practice, and I watched as each of my kids became interested in the Bible on their own.
We did not say, āHey, you need to read it every day.ā When youāre putting them in church and youāre having devotions, youāre showing them what you value and at some value theyāve got to start picking up on those personal habits. That felt much more like the very relational, intimate walking with the Lord, and I wasnāt going to try and force that on them. So there are spaces, I think, where you say, āHey, this is what we do as a family,ā like go to church or have prayer time before breakfast. That's just our family rhythm, and yes, you need to participate. But when it came to their own faith and their own growth, by the teen years I think that's starting to be put in their hands.
[57:04] Jonathan: All right, before we go, encouragement for parents who are feeling overwhelmed, discouragedāwhich is probably every parent.
[57:13] Melissa: Yeah. Exactly. If youāre feeling overwhelmed, this is where Iām always like go back to the basics. Read the Bible. Be encouraged. God is with you and He is parenting you while youāre parenting your teen. Be in prayer, ask for His help, and be around the people in the church. And so again, that makes life a lot more simple, right? Read your Bible, it will change you, it will change how you parent. Prayer will give you hope that God can change your child. And the church will give you the community you need. And then say no to a lot of other things, but simplify your life so that those things can be a priority.
[57:56] Jonathan: Well, the book is Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age. Melissa Kruger, itās always so fun, and youāve knocked out the lightning-round questions and I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[58:14] Melissa: Thanks for having me. It was fun.
[58:16] Jonathan: Absolutely. Pleasure.
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Do you find it difficult to change? Do certain habits, behavioral patterns, and sins tempt you daily, leaving you longing to resist but feeling powerless?
What does it mean to be sanctified truly? Can people change? In this reflection, Jonathan Youssef reveals the hope that is found in sanctification and rejoices in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ - which is not only a historical event but also our hope that change is possible.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 247: Can God Really Change Me?
"People don't change," the saying goes. We all know the experience of trying to change only to regress into well-worn patterns. We know the pain of watching a loved one fall into the same traps despite efforts to escape. And perhaps you are tempted to toss up your hands and give in to your worst behavior patterns. You are not alone.Yet, in the midst of our false starts and do-overs comes an event that changes everything. In a Jerusalem garden, a stone was rolled aside, and He who was dead came back to life. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was not only a historical event but also our hope that change is possible.
We are redeemed, and yet we await the day when we will no longer struggle with sin.
Sanctification in the Bible is the process of positive change in the life of a Christ-follower. The Greek root behind the word "sanctification" is the same root found in the word "holy." To be sanctified is to be set apart for a holy purpose or to be made more holy in practice. Both these meanings for sanctification are observable in the life of the Christian.
We see both these distinctions in the early church in Corinth, as well. In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul addresses immorality and division in the church community. He reminds them, "Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). But then he adds this revealing statement: "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11, emphasis added).
Paul's words stir up two thoughts. First, people actually can change! Former drunkards, former thieves, former immoral people can be so transformed by Jesus that they become the living and growing body of Christ. Paul, of course, knew this because he himself was transformed from a persecutor of Christ-followers to a Christ-follower.
Second, change is not the simple flip of a switch. Even though the Corinthians were no longer defined by their former lives, they still struggled with issues (like immorality and division) that had once held them captive. They were sanctified (set apart) and yet still needed to be sanctified (made holy in practice). This is still the struggle of most Christians today; we are redeemed, and yet we await the day of full redemption when we will no longer struggle with sin.
Think back to when you first placed your faith in Christ. God opened your eyes to the depth and weight of your sin, you confessed it to the Lord, and He forgave you. You probably saw some immediate change in your life. Perhaps you quit cursing the next day or restored a broken relationship. Maybe, like Zacchaeus, you reconciled a history of financial abuse. It was an encouraging start. However, after the initial change, perhaps you discovered deeply embedded sin patterns. These rocks were harder to move, and change slowed. Eventually, you began to give up on seeing change in these areas and settled into a "sanctification stasis."
Often, the sins that are so difficult to overcome are either internal (and therefore easier to hide) or acceptable in our culture. Greed and gluttony are examples of these deeply embedded sins. You know they aren't the best, but everyone struggles with something, right? And pride is the king of sins that refuses to give way. Since pride can look like confidence (something we praise) or success (something we aspire to) and since pride lives at the heart level, it can be one of the hardest sins to uproot, undermining every effort we make to put on the new self (see Ephesians 4:17-24). And so many give up hope.
But this is where we come back to Paul and the Corinthians. Why would Paul remind the Corinthians that they have been sanctified? Because the foundational reason to walk the path of sanctification, to work to root out embedded sin patterns, is that we have already been sanctified (set apart). And this has everything to do with the resurrection.
Paul clarifies this concept in his letter to the Colossian church. In the second chapter, he makes a radical use of the preposition "with." He writes that we, as Christians, were "buried with [Christ] in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead" (2:12, ESV). The apostle is saying that when Jesus died, we died. When Jesus was buried, we were buried. And, when Jesus was raised to new life, we shared in His resurrection. Talk about experiencing change.
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Sit down with Jonathan Youssef for a compelling conversation with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett, authors of The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is. Why It's Destructive. How to Respond. This discussion examines the pervasive and unsettling movement of faith deconstruction sweeping churches today. Whether it's affecting your loved ones, straining relationships, or stirring doubts within you, this episode provides crucial understanding and guidance.
Together, we will try to understand the core aspects of the Christian deconstruction movement, its origins, the meaning of deconstruction hashtags like #exvangelical, and why it attracts so many people, particularly those disenchanted with traditional church teachings.
Alisa and Tim offer strategies for thoughtfully and empathetically engaging with those questioning or abandoning their faith in Christ, emphasizing responses grounded in a biblical worldview.
Whether you are seeking to support a loved one in turmoil, understand the dramatic spiritual changes around you, or find answers to your spiritual doubts, Alisa and Tim provide valuable insights and answers that promise to enlighten, challenge, and encourage.
Listen and gain tools and confidence to address deconstruction with clarity and love, ensuring your faith and relationships can withstand the challenges of these transformative times.
ALISA CHILDERS is a popular speaker and the author of Another Gospel? and Live Your Truth and Other Lies. She has been published at the Gospel Coalition, Crosswalk, the Stream, For Every Mom, Decision magazine, and the Christian Post.
TIM BARNETT is a speaker and apologist for Stand to Reason (STR). His online presence on Red Pen Logic with Mr. B helps people assess flawed thinking using good thinking, reaching millions monthly through multiple social media platforms.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 246: The Deconstruction of Christianity with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett.
Jonathan: Today, we have quite a special situation. We have two of my favorite guests that weāve had in the past, Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And they have teamed up and have written a book together, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why Itās Destructive and How To Respond. Thank you guys so much for taking the time. Weāre all across the nation and different nations here. Thank yāall for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
Alisa: Itās great to be back with you.
Tim: Yeah, itās good to see you.
Jonathan: Well, I think before we jump in weāve Alisa and I and Tim and I, weāve separately had conversations around this area, but I love the way you break down your book into these three parts: Exvangelical, Deconstruction, and Hope. But just again for those who are new to the terminology, letās define deconstruction and separate it and define exvangelical, and then weāll talk about the reasons for the writing of the book.
Alisa: Which one you want to take, Tim, exvangelical or deconstruction?
Jonathan: You each get one.
Tim: All right. Iāll start with deconstruction. You know this is a tough definition to nail down. In fact, this took quite some research and quite some time. In fact, I actually changed my mind on how I was using the term. At least initially when I started teaching in deconstruction a few years ago, I thought there was a way that we could use the word deconstruction in a healthy way and there was a way we could use it in an unhealthy way. And we were seeing this kind of thing happening, especially on social media. Youād have people like Lecrae or John Mark Holmer or other notable evangelicals using deconstruction as a healthy way, hereās a good way to do deconstruction.
Tim: Thatās right. And on the other hand, thereās a whole lot of this other stuff that's very unhealthy. That's how we originally thought until we did serious research into what's going on in this deconstruction space, especially on social media where weāre seeing a movement or an explosion. And what we saw there was that there isnāt anything healthy. In fact, there are defining characteristics of the deconstruction explosion that are unbiblical and just completely wrongheaded.
So at the end of the day, where we landed on thisāand again, we say this is the hardest sentence we wrote in the book, but hereās where we landed on our definition of deconstruction: Itās a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring Scripture as a standard. And all those words are important in that sentence. So itās a process, but itās a very specific kind of process. Itās a postmodern process. Whereas where you would think (this is what many claim) is that they are on a search for truth, what weāre finding is that itās not really about truthāin fact, by postmodern we mean that there isnāt a goal of truth; thereās actually a denial of objective truth, that objective truth cannot be known.
And so thereās that on the one hand. On the other hand, you have this rejection of Scripture as an authority. And so when we put those things together, we think these are the defining characteristics of what deconstruction is all about. And we can kind of go into more detail and give some examples of where weāve seen that, but that's a starting point.
Alisa: Right and then the exvangelical hashtag is often used synonymously with and at least in conjunction with that deconstruction hashtag. And itās a little bit of a tricky hashtag because it doesnāt simply mean, at face value, no longer evangelical. But itās not like you have people who were raised Presbyterian and they become some kind of more liturgical Anglican or something and they use the ex. They are not using the exvangelical hashtag for that. What weāre seeing with the exvangelical hashtag is that, first of all, itās very difficult to define what evangelical is. And that's kind of a word like deconstruction that's defined in a hundred different ways.
So thereās the Bevingtonās Quadrilateral that characterizes the evangelical movement under four pillars of personal conversion, emphasis on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, biblical authority, and evangelism. And yet, if you ask people in the deconstruction hashtag what is evangelical, those beliefs are in the background for sure, but what they primarily see is God, guns and Trump. Itās what is perceived in their minds to be this unholy alliance between evangelicals and the political right. And so itās all kind of mashed together, along with things like spiritual abuse and purity culture and conservative politics. Itās all kind of this ball that all gets kind of mixed together and then it all gets thrown out as exvangelical.
And so in some cases theyāre conflating evangelical with the historic Christian gospel, and in other cases, they might actually be throwing out some cultural things that are Americanized that arenāt necessarily a part of the gospel. And it can be kind of like a mix of both. But itās important like when Tim talked about the shift of authority, itsā like the only thing that matters for the exvangelical and deconstruction is that they are leaving behind what they perceive to be toxic beliefs. And so as best as I can analyze are itās any belief outside of yourself that you would be asked to submit to, surrender to, kneel to that is not necessarily something that resonates with you inside.
Jonathan: Interesting. So youāre the ultimate authority, which goes to the deconstruction definition of Scripture being the authority.
Alisa: I do think it boils down to that, yes.
Jonathan: Do you find this is a uniquely American phenomenon? I donāt even know if phenomenon is the right word to use there.
Tim: That's a really good question. I think that thereās a few reasons why weāre seeing this in particular in North America. Itās happening in Canada, too, not just the U.S. I think that weāre seeing a culture that's dominated by a philosophy of relativism on the one hand and then on the other you have this kind of explosion of social media within the last decade or so. And I think bringing those two things together in particularā
And then maybe a third thing, and that is the American church and how we have, I think, neglected the life of the Christian mind. We used to say the church teaches what we believe really well but not why we believe it. So us apologists, weāre trying to train up the church in why we believe these things. But to be honest, when you look at the research now that's coming out in the last couple of years, people who identify as evangelical, I think it was in our book we say 42 or 43 percent of U.S., so Americans, who identify as evangelical do not believe that Jesus is god. They think Heās just a good moral teacher. Hold on a second! So these people identify as evangelical but theyāre not Christian. I mean, this is crazy!
So you have, on the one hand, Christians, people who are professing to be Christians because, hey, I was born in America or I was born in Canada. That's the default, right. Itās like in your genetics or something. Yeah, so you have that on the one hand, so thereās no real understanding or foundation for what real, orthodox Christianity is. Then you have this dominant culture, I mean, itās coming from every direction, this idea of relativism. Itās literally the water that many of your young people especially are swimming in, and they donāt even know theyāre wet.
And then of course you have social media, this platform now, where I have access to, I mean, the world. I have access to memes and TikToks and these, for many, they think these are compelling arguments. I canāt tell you how many times Iām sitting here at my desk and I get a message coming in. Itās a meme or a TikTok video that someone sends me and says, āHey, can you respond to this? I donāt know what to say. I donāt know how to respond.ā
And I watch the video or I read the meme and I think, Really? This is not a good argument. Itās not even close. Usually, itās not even an argument. And so when you bring all those things together, I think that makes America susceptible to the deconstruction movement for sure.
Alisa: thereās also the Trump element in the American version of deconstruction. Itās just such a huge part of that that is so uniquely American. But as Tim said, I think deconstruction is happening everywhere. I know progressive Christianity is happening. Even in the Middle East Iāve gotten emails of people wanting my book to be translated into Farsi because itās even coming into the Middle East. So where there is progressive Christianity, there is dn. But I suppose itās just taking on maybe a different type of flavor here in America.
Jonathan: Well, and even the Trump effect has ripple effects around the world to where people in foreign nations see Trump and think, Oh, well, heās their definition of Christian.
Letās talk about the prevalence. Because I think there are some who think this is just happening out in large cities or this is not affecting everyday people. There can be a disconnect to just how much influence this is having. And it can be people who are watching and consuming these things that arenāt even talking about it with their family because they know how the family will react when thereās genuine questions and doubt. So tell us a little bit about what youāre seeing with the prevalence of both of these concepts entering into homes.
Alisa: Well, I think weāre in a different world now, so this is an interesting anecdotal piece to this. When I go out and speak Iāll often ask an audience, āHow many of you have heard the word deconstruction in the context of faith?ā And the older the audience, the fewer the people have even heard of it. And yet, when I go speak to students itās 90 percent. But it blows my mind. Even at womenās conferences where women ā¦ the ages are 20 to maybe 60, 70, you might have 20 percent raise their hand that theyāve even heard of the concept.
And so what I mean by weāre in a different world is decades ago you had to get a book deal. There was major exposure with ideas. And so I think that there are some of us who are still living in that world and donāt realize the prevalence of some of these ideas on social media. For example, we have many posts documented in our book where itās somebody that nobodyās ever heard of an probably never will know their name, but their video has millions of views, hundreds of thousands of likes, and if you think about the reach of that versus somebody that you might have seen on TV decades ago or maybe in a Christian bookstore even or in the catalog that they would send out, that's a lot of people. But social media can reach so many people with a message where itās not even necessarily surrounding a particular personality.
And so I think the prevalence of it is on social media, so someoneās exposure to it is probably going to be directly related to what types of social media they have and how often they engaging with it.
Tim: And the other element to this, the older folks who have exposure to it, is because they have a loved one, usually a younger loved one, who is going through it and now weāre just, as we label it, this is what it is, deconstruction, they sayāit clicks. Oh, that's what my nephew is going through, or my grandchild or my son or my daughter or whatever. So it does kind of filter up to that older generation. Theyāre seeing the aftermath usually. Itās like why is my grandson no longer following the Lord? Well, it turns out they went through a process called deconstruction.
Jonathan: Well, and I imagine some of the reactions can be unhelpful, and that's why, again, I think itās important that books like yours are out there and podcasts and stuff that you guys are producing is out there, so that thereās a heightened awareness but also a helpful response. Because we do have a response and a calling, but we need to make sure weāre doing it in a right and biblical way.
I wonder if we could come to the origins of this. I know Carl Lawson writes in the foreword in your book about technically the beginning is, when Demas, who fell in love with the world, abandoned Paul and the ministry and the faith. But I mean in this particular area, is it with social media? Was there a particular person or is it just postmodernism in general? Where do you find your origins to these movements?
Tim: Well, itās true that we could trace this thing past Demas. We can go all the way back to the Garden of Eden, always. But just more recently in the 1960s we see postmodern philosophers like Derrida in particular, who is the father of deconstruction. Now of course, his application of deconstruction was to textbook religion. He argued that objective meaning, objective truth, could not be known, and that there was no actual truth, so the reader could import just as much meaning as an author of a text. And what we traced in our research is we saw there is a connection here.
In fact, we discovered a book by John Caputo, who is a scholar and actually follows Derrida and applies Derridaās philosophy not just to textbook religion in general, but in fact, to Christianity. And he wants to do this postmodern move even on the words of Jesus. And so he gives application in his book. What would Jesus think about, say, homosexuality today? Well, He would look around the world and see loving, monogamous relationships and He would be affirming. Even though Derrida says, yet, in the first century, no, Paul and Jesus, they had a certain view on this, but weāre going to bring new meaning to the text. In fact, the way Derrida describes this is Derrida says the text actually never arrives at a meaning. In fact, he has this analogy of a postman delivering a letter, and itās like the letter never arrives at its destination, and in that sense, Christianity has not arrived. There is no set fundamental beliefs that you need to hold toāin fact, they are always changing, never arriving.
So this is kind of the history, and of course thereās lots of people who donāt know who Derrida is, they donāt know who John Caputo is, and yet, they are taking a page out of his playbook. They are thinking in terms of that kind of postmodern philosophy as they look out at religion. Itās not what is actually true corresponds to reality; instead, itās there is something else going on. Oftentimes, itās personal preferences are the authority, or maybe theyāre looking at the culture and saying, āYeah, look, the culture is more accepting of sexuality and so we ought to be too.ā
Jonathan: Yeah, just like in the days of Noah. Help us understand who are some of the primary voices behind this today? I know we talked about how when youāre on social media it can be a lot of nameless, faceless people who just have an opinion and they want to create an argument or a non-argument that has an effect on people with their emotions. Are there any that are writing or have some influence as, you know, even by way of warning people, hey, be careful of so-and-so because it tends towards this trajectory?
[24:42] Alisa: Well, I would say thereās, in my mind, and Tim might have some others, but in my mind thereās one figure in particular that is, in my view, the most influential, although heās not primarily promoting quote/unquote ādeconstruction,ā is Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr, his ideas, his universal Christ worldview, isāInterestingly, when I was researching the coaching and therapy sites, I found all the ones I could find online of people offering services to coach you through deconstruction or even offer you therapy through your deconstructionāand by the way, these therapy and coaching sites are not helping you to remain a Christian; they are not interested in where you land, they just want to help you along your subjective journey.
But even the ones that arenāt claiming to be Christians, thereās always this recommendationāI looked at all the book recommendations, and there is a Richard Rohr book there every single time, even among those that donāt claim to be Christians. And so what Rohr has done, I think, is, especially among people who want to retain the title Christian but might be more spiritual but not religious, or some sort of a New Age-y kind of Jesus is more of a mascot kind of thing, Rohr has really given them a worldview to put in place of what theyāve turned down. And he does talk about deconstruction in his book, Universal Christ, and he says itās like the process of order, disorder, and then reorder.
Well, that sounds good at face value. Youāre taught a certain thing, and then something messes it up and as an adult you have to do some digging and some work and then you reorder. But that's not exactly what heās talking about. His order stage is what he calls āprivate salvation,ā your private salvation project. In other words, Rohr doesnāt believe in personal salvation, he believes in universal salvation, heās a universalist. So heās saying that's like the kindergarten version of faith, this kind of Christianity where you have personal faith and you have this God of wrath and judgment. All of that just needs to be disordered so that ultimately you can reorder according to his worldview.
Now I bring up Rohr because heās so influential. I mean, he makes his way into so many of the deconstruction conversations. But beyond Rohr, itās tough because there can be platforms that swell up and get really big, and then I've seen them shut down after they have maybe 20,000, 30,000 followers, even up to hundreds of thousands of followers. Iāve seen several of these platforms just kind of get burned out and they shut down. So itās hard to say, but I would say Derek Webb, Caedmonās Call, is an important voice in there. Youāve gotāWell, Jon Steingard was for a while when he ended up shutting down his YouTube, but he was the lead singer of Hawk Nelson. He was commenting for quite a while. Jo Luehmann is pretty influential. Who else, Tim?
Tim: Well, thereāsāI put them in different categories.
Alisa: The NakedPastor.
Tim: The NakedPastor for sure. So thereās guys who, and gals who have deconstructed and posted that theyāve deconstructed online. So that would be someone like a Rhett McLaughlin, who 3 million people watched his video four years ago. Heās been keeping people updated every year; they do kind of an anniversary thing. That sparked so many people on their own deconstruction. Now what's interesting about Rhett is he didnāt necessarily tell you how to
Tim: Yeah. And that was enough for some people to say, āMaybe I should do this too.ā Now thereās other platforms out there, and all they do is criticize Christianity, or they mock Christianity. Those are big on TikTok. I mean, there are massive platforms that have half a million followers and millions of views, okay, and I could go down and list some of those for you. But the point is theyāre not necessarily talking about deconstruction and the process, but theyāre just saying, āHey, hereās what you guys believe, but hereās my mocking, hereās my criticism.ā
Then thereās this other stream, and this is the NakedPastor or Jo Luehmann and others who arenāt just mocking Christianity or criticizing Christianity but theyāre trying to advocate for a certain kind of process, okay, and that's where youāre going to get a little more detail on how this deconstruction thing works out. And so theyāve been, in fact, Jo Luehmann and the NakedPastor, David Hayward, andā
Jonathan: Joshua Harris. Didnāt he do a course through that?
Tim: That's right. Joshua Harris, when heāagain, on Instagram. That blew up. There were like 7,000 comments in response to him just posting, āIām no longer a Christian.ā And you could see the responses, and Iām telling you, there were many who said, āThis post is what set me on my deconstruction journey.ā So thereās at least three different categories of influencers out there, and theyāre all playing into the same thing, deconstruction, but they all are coming at it from a different angle.
Jonathan: Alisa, for those who are familiar with your story, how is this movement different from the path that you were on?
Alisa: This is a great question because Iāve actually changed my mind on how I talk about this. So over ten years ago I had a faith crisis that was really agonizing. It was years long. I landed fairly quickly in going through some apologetics arguments, knowing that God existed, but just the doubts that would nag at me were just years of this agonizing research, reading thousands of pages of scholarship, just trying to figure out if what I believed was actually true. And it was propelled by a progressive pastor. I didnāt know he was progressive at the time, but I was in a church where there was this class going on and it set my friends, a bunch of my friends, into deconstruction.
And so when I wrote my first book about my journey, I actually called the process that I went through deconstruction because it was horrible, I wouldnāt wish it on my worst enemy. It was agonizing and I had to kind of de-con-struct. If you just take the word at face value, and then build back from the beginning.
But interestingly, when I would go online and I would talk about my deconstruction, deconstructionists would come on and say, āNo, you didnāt deconstruct.ā At first, that was so confusing to me. I was like, āWell, were you there?ā I mean, it was like this horrible, agonizing process.
Jonathan: Iām the ultimate authority here.
Alisa: Yeah, right, I know. And they said, āWell, you didnāt deconstruct because you still hold to toxic theology. You still have toxic theological beliefs.ā And that's when I realized, oh, okay, so this isnāt justāeven though I knew it wasnāt a good thing, I knew it was a horrible thing because, again, I wouldnāt wish it on my worst enemy, but it wasnāt about truth. Itās actually about leaving behind these beliefs that they think are toxic. And letās say you completely do hard work of years of studying and you decide that you are a sinner and that Jesus did die on the cross for your sins, that the Bible is Godās Word and that what Jesus claimed about Himself is true and that He proved it by resurrecting from the dead, if you hold to those beliefs, along with the biblical sexual ethic, you have toxic theology and youāve got to go back to the drawing board and start over.
So that's when I realized, okay, thereās more to this. And so I actually correct myselfā
Jonathan: Thereās a goal.
Alisa: Yeah. I correct myself in the new book and say I donāt actually use the language of deconstruction to describe what I went through because I was on a truth quest. I wanted to know what was true, whether I liked it or not, whether it resonated with me or not. In fact, what was interesting in the class I was in where all my friends ended up deconstructing, and I mean all that I know of, there might be two that I lost touch with that maybe didnāt, but most of the people that I know of did. And everything in that class was all about what resonates with me. I mean, we would ā¦ they would talk about Bible verses and say, āWell, that just doesnāt resonate with me,ā and they would toss it aside. And I was like, āYou canāt just do that.ā
And so I didnāt deconstruct, and so I corrected my language on that and really changed my mind about what I think it is. And I think what Iām hoping to set the example for others is people who are wanting to use the word because it was trendyābecause I really had a thing about that. Why am I using the word? Why am I hanging onto the word? And I had to realize thereās no reason for me to use that word. Because what I did was search for truth. I tested all things, held fast to what is goodāthat's biblical. I donāt need a postmodern word to describe that. And so that would be my journey with this word and kind of my relationship with it is that Iāve changed my mind; I didnāt deconstruct. It wasā
Jonathan: You re-entrenched.
Alisa: Yeah, they just think I circled some wagons and found some people to agree with me. Which is so interesting to me, because they werenāt there. And that's the thing. Pete Ens, Iāve seen the comment from him, āOh, Alisa doesnāt know ā¦ she doesnāt understand deconstruction, she doesnāt get it.ā
And Iām just like, āWere you there? You werenāt there. You have no idea what I went through.ā But itās like theyāre so quick to say, āYou have to respect my lived experience,ā but they are the first ones that will not respect your lived experience if you land at historic Christianity for sure.
Jonathan: That makes sense. You guys have spent hours on places like TikTok researching what leads people to deconstruct and what they all have in common. What are the common threads that youāve noticed through that?
Tim: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, some of the factors that weāve noticed that kind of launch people into a deconstruction are things like doubts, unanswered questions. Virtually all these stories have some instance of suffering or pain, and weāve all been through that. Thereās church hurt, thereās spiritual abuse. Now weāve got to be careful about that a little bit, because sometimes itās a real abuse that happens, of course, we would all want to say that is horrible and we stand against that. That is not of God. And so when a pastor engaged in that kind of thing, he needs to be held accountable for it.
But then on the other hand there is what we might call perceived abuse or perceived harm. And this is where things like teaching the doctrine of hell. In our research, we found that that's called, you know, teaching your kids, itās child abuse. If you say that Jesus died for your sins, that's considered toxic and abusive to tell someone that, yet that's the gospel message. So we want to make sure that we distinguish between those things.
Of course, we just mentioned earlier about politics and Trump and all that stuff. So thereās these different elements that youāll see peppered within these stories. Now we want to be quick to say that not all deconstruction stories are alike. In fact, they are often very unique, and that's because every single person is unique. So if youāve heard one deconstruction story, then youāve only heard one, you havenāt heard them all. But there are these common threads.
One question that we asked when we were doing our research is why is it that two people can grow up in the same house, they can go to the same church, the same youth group, they have the same parents, they experience some of the same trauma, suffering, whatever, and yet one will deconstruct and the other maybe becomes an even more faithful believer. What's going on there?
And what we found is it comes down toāat least one elementāa faith foundation. What is it, what is your faith foundation? And of course, this is going to be different for different people, and what we need to be asking, weāre challenging the church to ask, is what does it mean to be a Christian? Oftentimes, you knowāand this is a question I was asked when I was in university by my friends who were not believers, āTim, why are you a Christian?ā And I honestly shot back, āBecause my parents are Christians.ā That was my first response. I knew that aināt right. That was embarrassing.
Iād grown up in the church. Iād done all the church stuff, and yet I did not have a strong Christian foundation and a strong Christian faith. And so I, at that point, was very susceptible to this kind of deconstruction, right, because I couldāif TikTok was big at that time, I could have watched a video and, āOkay, Iām outta here. This has been refuted.ā
So I think that all those things that I mentioned earlier can make you a good candidate for deconstruction, but they donāt have to lead you down the path of deconstruction. This is why itās really, really important that the church needs to be helping to develop and disciple Christians so they have a strong foundation so when that crisis hits, they are able to stand firm in their faith.
So let me ask this question. There may be a simple answer. Is the faulty foundations that people are building on essentially, I mean, is the answer anything but Christ? Is it in the institution of the church or in the leadership in the church or your favorite Christian singer? Is it ā¦ do you find those the main threads that came back?
Alisa: That's an interesting question. I think, you know, when I think about foundation ā¦ Because I was trying to think through this question even within my own context. So one of my sisters was not a Christian until she was an adult, and she would say that openly; that's part of her testimony. She grew up in church. We grew up in the same home, we had the same discipleship, the same youth pastors, pretty much the same experiences growing up, same environment, and yet our foundation was different because I was a devoted Christian as far back as I can remember. I mean, I donāt even remember a time where I didnāt absolutely know that the Bible was Godās Word and Jesus was who He said He was. And yet, for my sister, she grew up in the same environment but had a totally different foundation. she did all the things, she cooperated with it, but She never personally trusted in Christ.
Jonathan: Going through the motions, yeah, okay.
Alisa: Yeah. And she may not have even realized that. You might have asked her at 12 years old, āAre you a Christian,ā she might have said, āWell, yeah,ā but she didnāt know that she wasnāt until she actually got saved as an adult. And so I think the foundation is more of a personal thing. The way I see it is the level of understanding you might have had. We have a lot of this sort of seeker-sensitive model that's over the past few decades has gotten really big. Iām not saying itās wrong to have a large church or try to be sensitive to people who are seeking, of course. But some of those seeker-sensitive and megachurch models really watered-down the gospel, really sacrificed discipleship for numbers. And I think that that has resulted in a lot of people growing up in churches that maybeā
And Iām not ā¦ We donāt speculate on this question in the book, were they really saved, were they not because we donāt know the end of their story either, but I do think even right now we have a lot of people in our churches who maybe may not be Christians because they may not be getting the gospel, theyāre not getting Bible teaching. And they might like the community and even like and believe certain things about it, but everybodyās foundation is maybe going to be a little bit different. That's kind of how I see it.
Jonathan: Well, I mean, not to steer us theologically, but I mean it has to be the work of the Spirit in the life of a person, and that's all in the sovereign timing of the Lord. I wonder if sometimes in this American evangelical mindset from an older-generation perspective we have this understanding that my children should be Christians and they should be following the ways that I direct. And then I should start seeing spiritual fruit in their life. Like, well, I donāt know. I mean, is there something wrong with that happening at a later point? Just thinking from a parental, a parentās perspective. Maybe Iāve gone into the weeds there a little bit.
Alisa: Like Tim said, each deconstruction story is unique. I would say it like this. Every deconstruction story is unique and yet theyāre kind of all the same, too, in certain points. I know weāre getting in the weeds a little bit, but as a parent, I wouldnāt want to push my kid to say they believe something they donāt really believe. Iād want them to come to that on their own. And that might come later, certainly, yeah.
Jonathan: And thereās a level of you want your child to be honest with you, and I think sometimes we can put a false expectation on your child to be going to be at a certain place when theyāre just not ready for that yet. And so what theyāre actually deconstructing is deconstructing whatever that false viewāagain, as you said, thereās different stories of deconstruction. But ultimately, if you deconstruct and never return back, to your point, there was never faith to begin with. You experienced the benefits of a covenant community or whatever it is. As Hebrews says, you were tasting but you werenāt of that, you know ā¦ not all Israel is Israel.
Do you think itās potentially because parents are unwilling to engage in the hard questions of the faith? Or do you think perhaps there is always just people who are going to rebel against Christ? Is it all of the above? In your research, I donāt know if youāre working with people who have gone through it and then interviewing them. Are you tracing things back to a particular point? I think we all want to say, āWhere does the blame lie?ā Are you finding that?
Tim: I think itās all of the above. A lot of these stories have unanswered questions. In fact, Alisa did a debate on Unbelievable with Lisa Gunger, and she makes this really tragic statement where she said, āQuestioning was equivalent to sinning in our church. If you questioned the pastor, you questioned his teaching, whatever, you were in essence sinning.ā
So confessing to your questions is confessing your sins. And that mentality, I mean, we wrote a whole chapter called āQuestions,ā In that chapter, what weāre trying to do is a little bit of a wake-up call. Weāre trying to rattle the church a little bit and say, āHey, we can do better. We ought to be the place where people feel safe to ask their questions and express their doubts.ā And I hope that everyone listening to this hears that. Tim and Alisa are not against questionsāin fact, weāre apologists. We travel around and weāre doing our best to answer questions, so weāre not against that, and we want the church to be a safe place.
And I mean we give an example of Tim Keller. At the end of his sermons, his services, he would do like a 40-, 45-minute Q&A time where he would just stick around and, okay, come on up. And in New York City, where you have like diversity of people, diversity of views coming in, youāre going to have skeptics, youāre going to have atheists, youāre going to have whatever coming in, asking their hard questions. And when you think about it, the way we have our churches structured, at least most of them, there isnāt really a Q&A time. That would be like a very special thing. Maybe every few months the pastor will take questions or something.
Jonathan: A special treat. Yeah, yeah.
Tim: That's right. But for the most part, that's not there, and that can give a lot of people the impression that questions arenāt allowed here. You just listen to what's spoken, do what youāre told, and that's the end of it. So I think that's part of it. But you also mentioned, yeah, maybe thereās a rebellious heart, too. You canāt read the Bible very far without seeing someone who has a rebellious heart. So weā
Tim: That's right. Just a couple of pages in. And so you end up seeing that this is a realistic element that we need to be talking about, too, and that's why we devoted an entire chapter to the deconstructor, because there are things about the deconstructor that are important to be aware of from a biblical anthropology perspective. And so there certainly are people who are seeking answers, and we want to be there to provide answers. But then thereās also these questions out there that are seeking exits. And you see lots of those. You see them in Scripture and we seeā
When youāve got Richard Dawkins saying, āWell, who made God?ā Richard Dawkins should know better, you know. When my four-year-old asks that question, okay, fair enough. But when you have an academic from Oxford asking that question as if itās legitimate of the Christian God, something else is going on.
Jonathan: I remember Keller teaching on Job, and he says Job is filled with questions, right, but the issue was that he never left God. He didnāt say, āI have questions and now Iām going to go over here and ask them.: But he kept asking the questions of the Lord in his particular situation. And he was saying that questioning can be a good thing because itās, as we talked earlier, all truth is Christās truth, so thereās nothing to be afraid of. Youāre not going to get an answer where it should cause difficulty. But rather, youāre sticking close to the source and youāre going to get your answers within reason. But rather than goingā
And itās interesting, because that's what these TikToks and all these things are creating is new avenues for you to go and ask questions and find a story that resonates with you, right, thatās the big terminology that we were using earlier. So that resonates with your story and how you feel, and then where did they land?
How do we invite this sort of cultivating an openness for asking of questions? Is it letās have a Q&A session at the end of church? Is it, you know, we need to start training our parents to have them understand that your kids asking questions is a good thing because theyāre coming to you versus no, everything is fine and Iām going to go to YouTube and find the answer because I think youāre going to be mad at me or whatever it is. Help us think through that from a church perspective.
Alisa: Well, I think starting with the parents is a great place to start because if we can train parents to be the first person to introduce some of these difficult topics to their kids, we know statistically the first person to introduce the topic will be viewed as an expert in the eyes of the child. So when we as parents are the first people to talk to our kids about gender and sexuality and all of these different thingsāand promoting an environment where weāre not weird about it, weāre not acting awkward about it, then we want to be the Google. I want to be Google for my kids. And that means Iām going to be really honest when they ask their questions and sometimes give more information than they wanted.
My daughter, she jokes with me like āI know Iāll get a straight answer from you with whatever I ask.ā And so maybe even training parents to ask your kids questions like āHey, what's your biggest question about God?ā
And parents donāt need to be afraid of what their kids say, because itās perfectly fine to say, āWow, Iāve never really thought about that. Letās think that through together,ā and then go do some research and continue to engage with your kid about it. But I think in the home, if we can start there, that's a great place. And then the church can help come around parents with even youth groups doing Q&As and pastors doing Q&As. I think that's a huge way to promote that environment from the home, all the way through the church culture.
Jonathan: Okay, letās do a little sort of engaging with others segment here. What would you say to those who are seeing their loved ones go through deconstruction or exvangelical. What would you say to them? Buy our book.
Tim: Yeah, that. And I mean the first thing that I would say is stay calm. It can be not just earthshattering for the person going through deconstruction, but the loved ones of those deconstructors itās often earthshattering. We talk about this in the book, actually. To find out that my kids who Iāve raised in the church come to me and say, āDad, I donāt believe any of this stuff anymore, Iām out,ā that would be crushing.
And I would want to remind myself: stay calm. Iāve heard so many stories, and theyāre actually horror stories, where a child comes to a parent and says, āIām deconstructingā and the parent just loses it. āHow could you do that?ā And they overreact, and of course that's not going to help. That's the first thing.
I would want my kids right away to know that they are loved, period. That this doesnāt change my love for them. Itās not āI love you, but let me fix your theology.ā Itās āI love you, period. Youāre still my daughter. Iām still your dad. That's not going to change.ā
And then another thing just to add is say thank you. It must have taken a lot for that individual, if they come to you and share that theyāve deconstructed, it must have been a big deal to do that. So I would say, āThanks for sharing that with me and me being the person that can be there for you.ā
So those are introductory things. Obviously, relationship is going to be so important. Itās not necessarily that youāre going to be able to maintain the relationship. Weāve heard stories of people getting no-contact letters from their loved one saying, āYour theology is toxic. I donāt want anything to do with you and so weāre done. Hereās my no-contact letter.ā
But if theyāre willing to stay in your life, then we want to do whatever is possible to maintain that relationship without compromising truth. Truth is absolutely necessary. But you want to be in that relationship as long as possible, because that's where youāre going to be able to have probably the best impact.
Itsā interesting you brought up Job earlier. And Jobās comforters started on the right track. They were there and they sat with Jobā
Jonathan: Silent.
Tim: Silently for seven days. And then it was when they started to open their mouths they got themselves into trouble, and I think we can learn something from that. So we want to hear, āHey, tell me your story.ā
One of the first questions I would want to know is, āWhat do you mean by deconstruction?ā If theyāre using that word, I want to know if they just mean, āHey, Iām asking some questions. Hey, I donāt know if I believe in this view of creation, baptism, and maybe Iām changing.ā
Okay, that's different than what weāre seeing online, okay, this idea of a postmodern process. So I want to nail down, okay, what are you going through and what kind of process or methodology are you using to go through it? I want to be able to identify those things.
And of course, in the book we talk about this idea of triage. If you have a gunshot wound to the head but a broken finger, theyāre treating the gunshot wound to the head, right, the thing that's more serious. And in a similar way, once you understand where this personās coming from, youāve heard their story, youāre going to be able to do some triage. Okay, what's the most important thing in this moment? Is it that I answer all these questions that Iām having? Is it that they just need me to be with them because they are going through something?
And I think that's important because sometimes we miss the mark. Especially as apologists, oh, let me answer that question. Letās go for coffee. Iām going to fix your theology and then weāll be back on track.
Jonathan: Weāre going to fix the problem, yeah.
Tim: That's likely not going to happen. And then finally, I would just say continue to pray. We cannot underestimate the power of prayer. If someone is going through deconstruction, what they need is God. They need the Holy Spirit. And so letās petition God on their behalf. Letās pray that God does whatever is necessary to draw that person back to Himself.
Jonathan: All right, now thinking for the person who is considering deconstructing their faith. And again, that could be a myriad of different positions along that path, but what are the things you would want them to know?
Alisa: Well, so hereās what I would say. If someone is considering deconstruction as if itās like an option, āOh, maybe Iāll deconstruct my faith,ā and thereās no crisis that's actually throwing you in deconstruction, I would say you donāt need to do that. Thereās no biblical command to get saved, get baptized, and then deconstruct your faith. You donāt need to do that. If there are some incorrect theological views that youāmaybe you grew up in a very legalistic stream of Christianity. Maybe you grew up in the Mormon church. Maybe you grew up as Jehovahās Witness and you need to go to Scripture, make Scripture your authority, and then get rid of beliefs that were taught to you that are not biblical. I want you to know that that is a biblical process and that is what you should do.
Jonathan: This is what we call disentangling, right, that we were talking about.
Alisa: Yes. In our book, we would call it reformation. But yeah, Jinger Duggar calls it disentangling. I donāt care what you call it. I would just really encourage you to not use the word deconstruction, because deconstruction is a very specific thing that isnāt about getting your theological beliefs corrected according to the Bible, and so we want to be reforming our faith according to Scripture. And so if you need to disentangle, as Jinger would say, or reform beliefs that were unbiblical, please do that. And that can be a very long process. It can be a difficult process.
But if someone is listening whoās maybe propelled into deconstruction through some church abuse or whatever it might be, my encouragement would sort of be the same. Itās actually good for you to get rid of beliefs that led to abuse, that Jesus stands against abuse as well. But I would just encourage you not to get sucked into this sort of deconstruction movement, because itās not based on absolute truth. Itās not based on Scripture. And itās not going to lead you to any sort of healing and wholeness spiritually. And so whether youāre just considering it intellectually or youāre just interested, I would resist it. And that's ā¦ Thereās going to be well-meaning evangelical leaders that will tell you you can deconstruct according to the bible, but I donāt think you can. And so letās keep our language and the way we think about this biblical rather than bringing in a postmodern concept that just clouds the ā¦ muddies the water and causes confusion.
Jonathan: All right, this is good because this goes to the next level. What do you say to those who believe that Christianity is toxic or patriarchal? What's your word to them? And then the follow-up to that would be for believers. When do we engage and when do we not engage with people who are kind of promoting that sort of ideology?
Tim: I would want to ask some questions, like what do they mean by toxic, what do they do they mean by patriarchal, to nail down those definitions. Are they appealing to something objective or are they appealing to something subjective based on their own personal preferences? I think itās really important that we start with what's true before we can look at whether or not something is toxic, or harmful, or whatever.
In the book, we give the example of you stumble upon someone whoās kind of beating on someoneās chest, and in that moment it may look like theyāre being abused, but you come to find out that actually theyāve had a heart attack, and that person is not beating on their chest, theyāre doing chest compressions, doing CPR. That totally changes how you see that action, right? It goes from being, hey, that's harmful and toxic to, wait, this is lifesaving, this is lifegiving.
So I think that's really important, when I see a deconstructionist talk about how hell is causing child abuse, I want to know, first of all, if there is such a place as hell. For them, itās not even on the table; itās not even the question, right, because itās a totally different philosophy, a totally different worldview. I want to look at is this true?
I give the example of I told my kids not to jam a knife into the wall socket. Well, why not? Because thereās electricity in there and it could electrocute you and kill you. So any good parent warns their kids about that. Or touching the hot stove, these kinds of things. Is it harmful for me to tell them not to do that? Everyone agrees, no, that's not harmful; itās not toxic. Now, it would be toxic if there was no such thing as electricity. If Iām just playing these games where Iām trying to torment my kids so theyāre scared to do whatever, to actually make them terrified of the stove or something. No.
Okay, the reason that they need to be careful around this hot stove or not stuck, stick stuff in the wall outlet is because there are dangers. And if hell really is this kind of danger, then we ought to appropriately talk about this issue. Look, Iām not talking to my three-year-old about eternal conscious torment. You know what Iām saying? Obviously, there is some appropriate when the time is right. Sexuality, we appropriately talk with those ā¦ about those issues with our kids. But we do talk about those things, and that's because theyāre true, and that's were we start.
Jonathan: That sort of answers a little bit of the next question, which is that you both dedicated the book to your children. And weāre, I think, weāve kind of addressed it in terms of being available. But in light of everything that you know and all that is going on with deconstruction and the questions and the struggles of the next generation, how are you taking this and applying this as you raise your children?
Alisa: Well, I know that this research has definitely affected how I parent. In fact, I went through a phase in the early stages of the research where I would hear myself saying things, and I was like, āThat's going to end up in their deconstruction struggle.ā And I found myself almost becoming way too passive for it was probably just a couple of months when the research was so intense, and it was new. And it was like, oh my gosh, all these things iām saying to my children is what people say they think is toxic and that's what theyāre deconstructing from.
And then I swung back around and Iām like, no, itās my job as a parent to teach my kids what's true about reality. Just because maybe culture things that 2 + 2 = 5 now doesnāt mean that I need to cower and say, āWell, you know, Iām not going to be too legalistic about 2 + 2 + 4.ā No. 2 + 2 = 4. You can believe what you want, but this is what's true. And so I actually, you know, what Iāve started to do is tell my kids āLook, itās my job as your mom to teach you what's true about reality. And what you believe about God and what you believe about morality is in the same category of science, math, logic. These are facts about reality. Itās my job to teach you. Now, you are the person who chooses to believe it or not.ā
And so what Iāve tried to do is really engage my kids in conversations, but knowing also that statistically they might deconstruct one day. I have to leave a lot of that to the Holy Spirit, and also to try to model to my children what a real believer looks like. I think that's a huge, a huge element in parenting is letting our kids see us repent to them if we sin against them, in front of them. Reading our Bibles on a regular basis together, praying together as a family. Not just being Sunday Christians. Here in the South itās real easy to just be that Sunday Christian and thenā
Jonathan: Haunted by the ghost of Christ.
Alisa: That's right. And then you just live like He doesnāt exist the rest of the week. And that's the thing about the Bible Belt. Certainly, people arenāt acting ā¦ like doing pagan sacrifices during the week. They are pretty much good people. But itās just not relevant to their lives until Sunday comes around. And just being different from that in front of our kids is something Iāve really tried to engage.
And just engaging their questions without pushing them, I think, is a huge thing. Like you mentioned earlier, is letting them have their own story and their own journey. And even as my sons wrestled with the problem of evil for about two years really intensely, I really didnāt want to push him. And I just validated that that's a good question, that's an honest question to ask, and letās talk to the Lord about it, letās think through some things. But trying not to push him to just settle really quickly so that he can work this out for himself, with discipleship and the guidance of parents. But that's one of the ways itās really affected my parenting.
Tim: That's so good. Yes and amen to all of that.
Jonathan: Okay, I second that. All right, give us some hope. This is your part three. Part three. This can all sound pretty scary and off-putting and you need to block it out.
Tim: It really really does seem hopeless, especially if you spend any time kind of typing in hashtag deconstruction or hashtag exvangelical. I mean, I would go into my office here and start working and writing and Iād come out and Iād just be like ā¦ my mood has changed.
Jonathan: Spiritual warfare, for sure.
Tim: My wife knew it, oh yeah, my wife saw it and my kids could see it. It was really discouraging. And so I feel for those parents who have that loved one whoās going through this, and many do, so we wanted to make sure we end the book on a hopeful note. And one of the things that we were thinking aboutāin fact, I think it started with a phone call. I called Alisa, and I remember I was sitting at my dining-room table and I had a sermon that I was going to give on deconstruction. And Iām like, Alisa, I need to end this thing with something hopeful because it is so ā¦ And I had, actually, a parent reach out to me before I gave the sermon, saying, āI really hope that youāre going to give us some hope.ā Because they have a child themselves, a young adult, whoās deconstructing. Iām thinking, okay, what is it Alisa? Help me out here.
And we just started talking back and forth and so I donāt know how this came up, but eventually we started thinking about Easter weekend, right, weāre coming up to it. Of course, you think about what was going on Friday night. Itās like Peterās there; heās seen his Savior, his Messiah being crucified, and his world is turned upside down. We could just imagine what that was like to go through this traumatic experience.
And then, of course, it jumps to Sunday and Sunday brings with it resurrected hope, right? And you have the angel shows up, tells the women, you know, go and tell His disciples AND Peter. Like Peter really needs to hear this. Friday night, he denied the Lord three times. It was a bad night for Peter. But heās going to receive this resurrection hope on Sunday.
Well, we actually titled the last chapter āSaturdayā because we think that a lot of people are living in what could be described as a Saturday. Now again, weāre not told much about that particular Easter Saturday, so we can only speculate, but really, I mean, what kind of questions were the disciples, in particular, Peter, asking? Were they starting to doubt some of the things that they had been taught, maybe like trying to explain away some of the miracles they had seen? It wasnāt supposed to happen this way, was it? And so thereās self-doubt, thereās all this trauma that theyāve experienced.
Now of course, Sunday was just around the corner. We think that, look, if that hope can come for Peter, then it can come for you and your loved one, too, right? We donāt know what that Saturday looks like. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be just one 24-hour day. It could be months down the road; it could be years down the road; but we think this is a message. Because if it can happen for Peter, it can happen for your loved one. And I think that can move us from a state of āThis is completely hopeless, what good can come from this? How can this be undone,ā to a state where, no, we can be hopeful. Jesus rose from the grave after being dead. And when that happened, Peterās faith is restored.
āDo you love me?ā He says, āYeah, I love you.ā Three times, kind of like paralleling the three denials.
Jonathan: Exactly.
Tim: And then the Church is built on this confession. So I mean that brings me hope, and hopefully it brings hope to others who are going through this.
Jonathan: Just one final question. Have you seen anyone whoās been restored out of this?
Alisa: You know what? I have heard a few stories, but these are people that have platforms. So I have several people that are part of my Facebook community who have said they deconstructed into progressive Christianity but have been brought back. I have had a couple of people on my personal podcast who had deconstructed. One is a guy name Dave Stovall. We actually tell his story in the book. He was in the band Audio Adrenaline, and he deconstructed into progressive Christianity and then a local pastor here in town discipled him back to the historic Christian faith and had all these difficult conversations with him and engaged him in conversation. So I think we are seeing some. Weāre not seeing a lot yet, but I think a lot of the stories maybe are just more private, where people arenāt necessarily shouting it on social media. But yeah, the Lordās at work, absolutely.
Jonathan: That's good.
Tim: Yeah, I can echo that, too. Weāve been ā¦ A I travel around teaching and speaking, Iāll have people come up to me and usually you get a lot of people saying, āThanks for hits information. I had no idea this was going on.ā But this one guy, he said, āI went through deconstruction.ā And he said, āIt was when you put up your definition of deconstruction that you had me because thatāā
Alisa: Wow!
Tim: I thought he was going to push back and be like, āBut that's not how you define it. Instead, he said, āYou had me as soon as you put up your definition.ā Why? āBecause,ā he said, āthat exactly described the process that I was going through.ā And yet, here he was on that Sunday morning at church kind of completely kind of turning a corner and willing to say, āNo, Iām willing to follow the truth wherever it leads.ā
And that led him to affirming that the Bible is Godās Word, and now heās trying to align his beliefs. And of course, that's a journey weāre all on. I have false beliefs right now; I just donāt know which ones are false, right? Iām always trying to correct my mistaken beliefs and make them align with Scripture. And praise the Lord, that was the journey he was on.
Jonathan: Oh, amen. Well, the book is The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why Itās Destructive and How To Respond. Alisa Childers, Tim Barnett, thank you, guys, so much for being on Candid Conversations. Iāve really enjoyed our talk today.
Alisa: Me, too. Thanks so much.
Tim: Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thanks for having us.
Jonathan: God bless.
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In this new reflection, Jonathan shares the Biblical principles of teamwork and selflessness that should be found within the church community.
Continuing from last week's reflection, "Are you walking in truth?", Jonathan recounts the story of Bill Romanowski, an incredibly talented former NFL player known for his less-than-ideal teamwork. His story is a modern parallel to the Biblical account of Diotrephes, who prioritized self-interest over communal harmony.
Join us as we uncover what the Bible says about true servanthood and how we can walk as godly team members daily.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Join Jonathan Youssef to navigate the complexities of truth and love. In this episode of Candid, Jonathan will examine the challenges of understanding these concepts, including whether absolute truth exists and the multifaceted nature of love.
The conversation touches on the Christian perspective of being salt and light to a dying world that lacks an understanding of truth and love. It highlights the importance of living out the truth of our faith with love and patience in the community.
Further, we explore the apostle John's transformation from a zealous youth to a wise elder who embodies truth and love. Through his letter to Gaius, we uncover the joys of faithfulness to the Gospel, the significance of hospitality, and how to discern true from false teachings.
This episode aims to inspire a deeper understanding and practice of truth and love in listeners' lives. It encourages reflection on personal beliefs and actions in light of these foundational principles. Join us to explore how these ancient virtues remain relevant and transformative today.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 244, Are You Walking in Truth?:
Today I want to talk to you about Truth and love. These are two words with many different definitions. When I say truth and love, you donāt even know what I could say next. I could say anything. Is it my truth? Is it your truth? Is it his truth, her truth, their truth? Itās almost as if itās just a subjective topic, a subjective term. Is there anything like absolute truth?
And love, my goodness, are we talking about romantic love, brotherly love, or agape love? Are we talking about love that is just tolerance and acceptance? Do we love each other only as long as we agree with each other? Or is it just a feeling or an emotion? Is love self-defined? Love is love.
The world today is tied up into knots over these two terms. Can a person have truth and not love? Can a person have love but not truth? Hereās the reality: I donāt expect the world to get this right. I donāt have a great hope that things will get a lot better at any point in time because this is not our home. But at the same time, I have not been called to run out into the hills and build a bunker and stock up on ammunition. We have been called to look at a dying world that does not know the truth and does not understand love, and we are called to be salt, and we are called to be light to them.
We are called to encourage one another, to gather and praise God's name together, and to go out and witness to the world together because our message is far greater than any message they will ever hear. No matter your age or stage of life, if you put your saving trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, then your calling is to be obedient to the truth and to walk the truth out in love.
A. W. Pink was a reformed theologian who wrote several great books and many fantastic sermons. His writing is so helpful; Iāve used several of his writings in research that Iāve done for other sermons. Martin Lloyd-Jones, who was succeeded by our dear friend R. T. Kendall at Westminster Chapel said, āDonāt waste your time reading these other theologians,ā like Karl Barth and Bruner. He said, āGo and read Arthur Pink. Read Pink.ā
Pink would tour around America and Australia preaching and teaching, but he was never well-known until after he died. Pink finished out his days living in isolation in Scotland with his wife. They never really became part of a church body. They never got situated with a good church community.
Lloyd-Jones also said of Pink, āAs it related to his inability to be patient with people and remain in a particular church, if I had behaved as Pink did, I would have achieved nothing. I could see that the only hope was to let the weight of truth convince people, so I had to be very patient and take a long-term look at things; otherwise, I would have been dismissed, and the whole thing would have been finished.ā
Pink was a man who was grounded in the truth and yet, for whatever reason, was not walking it out. And his own friends testified against him. Thatās why Scripture is very careful to teach us that we walk these two things out togetherātruth and love. We should be people who are marked by truth, strong in our convictions, and hold fast to the Word of God, by the Spirit of God, for the glory of God. But we should also be marked by love and generosity, grace and humility, hospitality, and care because all of these are the markings of Jesusās life and ministry on Earth.
So, we read about these two things, truth and love, in the shortest letter in the Bible, Johnās third epistle. Before we go any further, letās take a minute and read from Third John:
The elder, To my dear friend Gaius, whom I love in the truth. Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well. It gave me great joy when some believers came and testified about your faithfulness to the truth, telling how you continue to walk in it. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth. Dear friend, you are a faithful ... you are faithful in what you are doing for the brothers and sisters, even though they are strangers to you. They have told the church about your love. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God. It was for the sake of the Name that they went out, receiving no help from the pagans. We ought therefore to show hospitality to such men so that we may work together for the truth.
John wrote the Gospel of John and First, Second, and Third John. He would also later write the book of Revelation. First John was written to a very general audience. Second John was written to a specific church. And this letter, Third John, was written to a very personal and specific person.
Letās take a minute to get to know John. He was a disciple, and he was nicknamed by Jesus, with his brother James, the āsons of thunderā. When Jesus and the disciples were turned away from hospitality from a Samaritan village, it was James and John who went to Jesus and said, āCan we call for fire to come down to judge these people,ā - a la Elijah and the prophets of Baal.
Jesus rebukes them because his first coming was not one of judgment but to preach the good news, to bring healing, and to bring life. But compare John in his youth to this John here in writing his third letter, and he is referred to simply as āthe elder.ā John grew from a brash, arrogant young man filled with fire, to this wise, gentle, loving older man who is full of love and truth.
What happened to John? How did he move from a son of thunder to the loving elder? What had he experienced? He had witnessed a lot. He had witnessed Jesusās teachings, Jesusā miracles, Jesusā preaching. He witnessed Jesusā patience with the disciples. He witnessed the transfiguration and saw Christ with Moses and Elijah, a depiction of the Law and the prophets. He also witnessed His Lord and Savior crucified on the cross. It was then he was given the position of caring for Jesusās mother, Mary. This is John, who would also see His Resurrected Lord and Savior. John is a man who has been used mightily by the Lord.
And John is writing this letter to a man called Gaius. Now, we donāt know anything about Gaius. He doesnāt appear to be in any sort of leadership in the church that we can tell. All we see is Gaiusās character, and that character is being reported back to John. We see that there was some conflict in the church over who was trustworthy. They wanted to know who they could believe.
There are so many mixed messages. A preacher would travel from house church to house church and depend on other believers to show them hospitality. In Johnās second epistle he warns the believers not to welcome in or even greet the false preachers and teachers because that would only help them spread a false gospel. Heās saying, āDo not endorse these people, but take the faithful in and welcome them.ā
So, what are the distinguishing marks between a false teacher and a faithful teacher? Now, these werenāt denominational issues. They werenāt in disagreement over infant baptism and believerās baptism. They disagreed over whether Christ had physically come in the flesh. John says, āLeave these people alone. Let them go on their way. The truth itself will testify to the faithful teachers.ā
In essence, he is saying, āIf you are a believer who has heard and received the Gospel and your spiritual eyes have been opened, your spirit inside you will resonate with what is being taught and you will know a true teacher of the Gospel.ā
Teachers were dependent on hospitality. They didn't have Holiday Inn or Motel 6. This is why hospitality was such a major issue in the early church. When Jesus sends out the 12 and the 72, He tells them they will be provided for by people of peace. When Paul writes to the Romans, he fully expects that they will financially support his mission journey to Spain. And the book of Hebrews urges the hearers not to neglect hospitality to strangers. Two great needs, truth and love, together.
So John writes to Gaius, verse 1, āThe elder to the,ā in the ESV, beloved, Iām going to use that term, āthe beloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.ā
What does it mean to love in the truth? John says that Gaius continues to be faithful to the truth concerning Jesus Christ. And it is the truth that binds us together. We know love because we know the truth.
John writes in his first epistle, 1 John chapter 3 verse 16, āBy this, we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers because of the truth of the gospel.ā Because of the gospel's truth, we are called to love one another. Strangers? Never heard of it, not in the church. I may not know your name, but we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We have more commonality than flesh and blood oftentimes do.
Listen to what John writes in verse 2, āBeloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health as it goes well with your soul.ā
How does he know itās going well with Gaiusās soul? We read it in the next verse: "For I rejoiced greatly when the brothers came and testified to your truth, as indeed you are walking in the truth.ā
John knows it is going well with Gaiusās soul because he is living out the gospel's truth. They testified about his faithfulness to the gospel. Gaius is living out the truth of the gospel in love. Heās walking in the truth.
John emphasizes that Gaiusās faithfulness involves his holding to true doctrine and his persistence and actions, which are consistent with what is in the doctrine. In verse 4, John says that his greatest joy is not that his 401(k) is strong, not that his childrenās academic and athletic successes are great, not that the design of his home is beautiful, nor that his favorite sports team won a big game. His greatest joy is that his children fellowship with him and actively walk in the truth.
In each of his three lettersāto the general church, to the specific church, and to the individualāhe goes out of his way to say, āThis is important to me. Iām conveying what brings me joy: that you are walking in the truth.ā
Gaius has remained faithful to the gospel. He has not fallen to the false teachings that were swirling around. And he is a source of the elderās greatest joy. Moms and dads, what is your greatest joy regarding your children? Is it that they are academically successful and get into a fantastic college? Is it that they are athletically successful and get scholarships? Is it in your position and the status of your vocation? Is it in the appearance of your home?
And this goes beyond families because Gaius is not Johnās physical son; heās his spiritual son. And so when we are here together as a body, we are, again, brothers and sisters in Christ, and weāre constantly putting forth and putting on display what we prize. I wonder if we went around and asked all the children, āWhat is it that your mom and dad prize, or your grandma and your grandfather?ā What are we displaying as the greatest value to the next generation?
But I also understand that this can be a source of great pain for many people. Your children may not be walking with the Lord, so instead of being a source of great joy, it is a source of great struggle and pain. I think John would give the word to those in that situation to remain in the truth and love. Donāt take truth as a 2 x 4 to your children and try to beat them up with it, insisting that this is right. Your children will despise you for that, and they will despise the truth. But you walk this out in love, with compassion. Donāt forget the truth. Instead, hold it together with love. That is the gospel's message as it was put on perfect display by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Then John praises Gaius for his hospitality to traveling preachers. āBeloved, it is a faithful thing you do in all your efforts for these brothers, strangers as they are, who testify to your love before the church.ā
His efforts for the faithful brothers is what John commends as faithful. It isnāt just what Gaius believes is faithful, but also his actions. And it is because of what Gaius believes, what he has planted his faith in, that he can be faithful with his actions. Because if youāre not planted in something faithful, your actions wonāt reflect faithfulness. But Gaius is planted in a living hope. He is planted in a resurrected hope. He is planted in an unconquerable hope.
These believers go back to Ephesus, where John was, and they say, āWe had an amazing time preaching in this little town. You wouldnāt believe it. In this little town, there was a brother in Christ called Gaius, and he was a brother who was strong in the truth. And he was a brother who loved well. He took us in, cared for us, and introduced us to people in the church. He is a dear brother.ā
How good is it when people speak well of us? Have you ever been conversing with someone you didn't know very well, and you mention a friend, and that person immediately starts to gush over that person?
āOh, I love that person. They are so fantastic! Let me tell you. We were moving, and they came and helped us move.ā And then youāre sharing stories about how fantastic this person is, how much you love this person, how helpful and insightful they are, and what a blessing they are to know them.
I remember in Australia, there was a well-known evangelist and preacher who was contemporaries with John Stott and Dick Lucas, and just like those two men, this man never married. And the Lord used their singleness to serve the global church so well. This manās name was John Chapman, and in typical Australian lingo, they shortened it incredibly and just called him Chapo. He was funny, he was kind, he was generous, he was hospitable. He was a mentor to my pastor in Sydney. He had done some work with Dad in the past as it related to evangelism.
And I remember after Chapo died watching his funeral online. The Archbishop of Sydney got up and shared, and he mentioned how deep of an impact Chapo had on so many people. And then he said, āWhy donāt we all take a minute right now and have everyone just share your Chapo story with your neighbor?ā I mean, I almost burst into tears because it was immediate. Not a second had passed, and the room was filled with smiles, laughter, love, and storytelling. And the problem was that they finally had to get up and say, āStop. Be quiet. Stop. We have to keep going with the service.ā Because they could have gone on like that for hours.
I have a feeling that would have been Gaius. Maybe on a smaller scale, but that would have been Gaius. People would have gone on and on about how dearly he was loved and his impact on them.
I wonder what people would say at a celebration of your life? Would people easily share what an encourager you have been and what a great help you were? Or would they talk about how you may have had your doctrine perfect, dotted every I, and crossed every T, but had no love, like Arthur Pink?
There werenāt universities, trade schools, or tertiary education in the first century. There were these philosophers who would gather in the town square and philosophize. They would just drone on and on about how their philosophy was right. Nothing has changed.
They would try to attract hearers, and then they would start these schools with the hopes that some of these families would say, āWe want to send our son to your school,ā and then they would train them in that philosophy. Some thought that just as there were stoics, cynics, and epicureans, Christians would have a school like this, and then they would just train up their people like this, that they were just another philosophy of life.
But Christians refused to take this money because Christians were not saying they were just another philosophy amongst the rest. They were announcing the Kingdom of God. They were telling people the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is not just a philosophy; that is a total worldview perspective that affects everything and everyone.
So John says, āThese men come in the name of Christ, preaching the word of Christ, and they refuse help from the pagans; therefore, we ought to support people like these, that we may be fellow workers for the truth.ā
Now listen, I understand we may not be in the same position as Gaius or this church, but think about your missionary care and support. Think about your care and your support for ministries that strive to take the gospel to the lost and those on the outside. Think about how you care for and support the pastoral team in your church. Think about how you care for and support your small group leader; how you care for and support your Bible study leader. Think about what it means to support people in ministry. We are all fellow workers for the truth. Your support carries on our work as preachers.
It allows for ministries like Leading The Way to exist, and that work leads to ultimate destinies being changed in people's lives. I read a letter from a young Muslim convert a while back. He was watching the Genesis series we did a while back and talked about how it served, blessed, encouraged, and equipped him. So, your support of the truth motivated by love is serving and blessing this community here and to the rest of the world. What a privilege it is to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, to be supportive of something outside ourselves. When we see that people are blessed and are walking in the truth, that can serve as our greatest joy.
I want to leave you with three questions. It would be good to write them down and to think about them this week.
First, where does your great joy come from?
Second, do people speak well of you regarding truth and love?
And finally, are you a fellow worker for the truth?
I hope these will serve you well today, tomorrow, the week ahead, and the rest of your life. I hope that they will serve as great motivation.
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How do you forgive when you feel deeply wronged and wounded? Is it important to ask for forgiveness when we have wronged someone else?
On today's episode of Candid, Jonathan Youssef unpacks the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18 and reveals how giving and receiving forgiveness are intertwined.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Good Friday invites us to witness Christ's profound love and sacrifice, urging us to ponder our role in this redemptive narrative. It calls us to seize the hope and transformation found only in Jesusās death and Resurrection, motivating us to live lives that reflect Christ's calling.
Join Jonathan Youssef for a thoughtful reflection on the events of Good Friday. We'll explore the depth of Jesus's suffering and its crucial role in delivering salvation and hope to the world. Weāll also explore the critical moments at Golgotha, including Jesusās crucifixion, the division of his garments, and the powerful expressions of love and sacrifice from that day.
By the end of this episode, youāll gain insights into the significance of Good Friday in the foundation of Christianity, emphasizing the salvation plan and the transformative impact of Jesusās ultimate sacrifice.
Stand alongside Jonathan at the base of the cross where Christ was crucified and contemplate the magnitude of Godās love for humanity during this Holy Week.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Is your prayer life effective? Like many, you may ask, "What is an effective prayer life?"
Join Jonathan Youssef to explore the question of what makes prayer effective. With insights from James 5:16 and the prophet Daniel's prayer life, listeners are guided through the foundational aspects of a prayer that resonates with God, including righteousness, praise, confession, mercy, and bold petitions.
Jonathan emphasizes the importance of aligning our prayers with God's will, as revealed through Scripture. He demonstrates how a righteous life and heartfelt prayer can lead to significant spiritual growth and transformation. This episode encourages listeners to re-evaluate their approach to prayer, ensuring it's rooted in a deep relationship with Christ and a sincere desire to see God's will done on earth.
Whether seeking to invigorate your prayer life or deepen your spiritual walk, this episode offers valuable insights into connecting more meaningfully with God through prayer. Tune in for a journey that promises to uplift and inspire your faith.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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In this enlightening episode of Candid Conversations, Jonathan Youssef welcomes Phylicia Masonheimer, an influential writer, speaker, and the founder of Every Woman a Theologian. With a Bachelor of Science in Religion and author of pivotal books such as Every Woman a Theologian: Know What You Believe, Live It Confidently, Communicate It Graciously, and Stop Calling Me Beautiful: Finding Soul-Deep Strength in a Skin-Deep World, Phylicia shares her compelling journey from growing up in a culture adjacent to legalism to empowering women in their faith and understanding of the Bible.
Phylicia delves into the critical issues surrounding purity culture, the importance of theological education for women, and the nuanced challenges of navigating legalism and fluffy, feel-good teachings within the Christian community.
Further exploring the balance of family life, ministry, and personal growth, Phylicia and Jonathan discuss practical strategies for managing time, the value of intentional living, and the profound impact of home discipleship on children's spiritual development. Phylicia's insightful perspectives on critical thinking, engaging with Scripture, and the transformative power of the Gospel offers you a refreshing approach to your faith journey.
This episode is not just a conversation but a heartfelt invitation to embrace theology with open arms and discover the strength and grace that come from a deeper understanding of God's Word.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Join Jonathan to discover the roots and the dangers of the prosperity gospel. In this insightful reflection, Jonathan highlights the danger of the prosperity gospel and its power to distort faith into a tool for material gain, urging listeners to prioritize their devotion to Jesus Christ over wealth. He emphasizes the importance of choosing eternal treasures over worldly ones, using Moses and Jesus Christ as models for forsaking earthly riches for God's glory.
The episode of Candid challenges listeners to reflect on their values and the true meaning of living a life of Biblical prosperity, encouraging a life aligned with God's purposes rather than pursuing material wealth.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Jordan Taylor was entrenched in the New Age for more than ten years. She practiced witchcraft, performed spells, was a tarot card reader, and enrolled in classes to sharpen her psychic abilities. She was a certified Reiki master and yoga teacher. She used crystals as a means of healing, protecting, and manifesting. She worshiped nature and worked with goddesses. She found her spirit guides and let them lead the course of her life. She believed she created her reality and was her god, controlling her life.
But she grappled with darkness, deception, and a yearning for moreā¦until she had an encounter with God.
Jordan Taylor first shared her testimony of giving her life to Christ on Facebook, which went viral. She then turned that post into an article for the Gospel Coalition. We wanted to know more, so Jordan joins Jonathan for a Candid Conversation to discuss what led her into the New Age, what prompted her to consider a relationship with Christ, and how that relationship has transformed her life from anxiety and darkness to peace, love, and light in Christ.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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TRANSCRIPT
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations Episode 238: New Age to New Life with Jordan Taylor.
Jonathan Youssef: Today, my guest is Jordan Taylor. She wrote an article on the Gospel Coalition website, and Jordan, you mentioned that your testimony went viral. Was it that article on Gospel Coalition, or was there another platform on which your testimony went viral?
Jordan Taylor: Yes, my testimony on Facebook went viral.
Jonathan: Facebook. Okay. Jordan Taylor comes out of New Age, so donāt worry if youāre a Christian. If youāve heard that term a thousand times and still have no idea what it is, Jordan Taylor will define it for us. And itās a wonderful testimony of how the Lord has drawn you to Himself. It sounds like Heās using you to help others who are caught up in this worldview, particularly young people who are getting caught up in thisāI know Iāve seen it quite prevalently, even in the most recent years, so thank you so much, Jordan Taylor, for joining us on Candid Conversations.
Jordan: Thank you so much for having me.
Jonathan: Letās start with a definition of āNew Age.ā You could use that term, and maybe 10 percent of the people in the room would have an accurate definition; the rest just nod along and assume they know what youāre talking about.
Jordan: True. So, it is very difficult to define because there is no systematic doctrine for the New Age, and it borrows from many different religions, belief systems, and esoteric traditions. So you might find itās sort of an umbrella term for a mixture of these concepts drawn from things like Hinduism, Buddhism, metaphysics, astrology, occultism, and mysticism. So it pulls from all different places, and you can say one thing, and another person in the New Age may not be doing that same thing.
Jonathan: Right. Is it sort of the view of theyāre at the top of the mountain, and theyāre saying, āHey, all the paths lead to the top, donāt worryā sort of thing?
Jordan: Yeah. You will find that. You will find that all roads lead to heaven sort of mentality.
Jonathan: Interesting. Will you tell us your story? Letās start with origins and how you got into this, and then weāll get to the rest of your testimony and how the Lord saved you from it.
Jordan: I was in the New Age for about 13 years. I started by getting involved with yoga, and eventually, that led into meditation, so it was sort of a snowball effect. I started going to therapyāand youāll see in any modern therapy as well as if you google stress management or how to deal with anger or how to deal with anything, youāll see that the results are yoga, breathing, meditation. Youāll find a lot of that. So, I started seeing a therapist who recommended taking yoga, and I was not really into that. I wasnāt sold on it. But eventually, after enough encouragement, I decided to try it. I was already into psychic mediums, and I had an obsession with crystals, so I was already there. I had moved to Salem, Massachusetts, at the time, so I was engrained inā
Jonathan: Witchcraft.
Jordan: Yeah. Witchcraftā
Jonathan: Right at the heart of it, Salem.
Jordan: Yeah, my interests were piqued in that matter, so being in Salem definitely overwhelmed me with more of that. Then, being encouraged to try yoga just kind of fits. So I did. I tried yoga and thought I could see how people would like this and how people would feel better after a class like this. I still wasnāt 100 percent sold, but eventually, I liked it so much that I got certified as a yoga teacher. So, I was a yoga teacher. I also became a reiki master- an energy healer. I did hands-on energy healing. I was doing crystal healing. I was an oracle card reader. I was doing intuitive readings with people. And I built a whole business around this, soā
Jonathan: Is this about finding peace, connection with the universe, and alignment? Iām assuming astrology probably comes into this. Yeah, so itās a seeking of oneness and purpose. These are kind of the main thrusts behind this mindset.
Jordan: Yeah, I was certainly seeking my purpose. I came from a childhood of trauma. I had a pretty rough childhood growing up, and so I had a lot of unhealed trauma that I hadnāt processed.
Jonathan: And that's why you were seeing a therapist to begin with?
Jordan: Yes.
Jonathan: Okay. All right.
Jordan: Yes. I was really searching for ways to heal, for peace, and for my purpose on this earth, and the New Age really played into all of that.
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah, and it gives you a lot of answers, too; I know the term they like to use a lot is holistic, right? Itās mind/body/spirit, things that are not uncommon to the Christian faith in terms of thinking through those things. Our body is a temple, etc., the renewing of your mind. But the connection to the Earth and the universe, from our perspective now, now that the Lord has saved us, and given us a mind to think, and given us His Word, right, thereās some truth in the elements of creation and the display of the wonder of God, but itās been warped, itās been twisted. I remember reading in your article about this is sort of buying into the original lie of Adam and Eve in the Garden.
Jordan: Yes.
Jonathan: That's sort of a helpful thought. I mean, I think everything originates there, right? Itās, in a sense, even in the seeking of oneness, thereās this element of divinity within ourselves and not outside of us so much. Yeah.
Jordan: Totally. I would say that witchcraft started in the Garden of Eden. I mean, Adam and Eve believed the greatest lie ever told, that you would be as gods, and so when you think about it, a lot of times youāre thinking, okay ā¦ Well, in the New Age you believe that you can create your reality. You believe that you can manifest what you want. And so essentially, you are thinking that you are your god.
Jonathan: Speaking things into existence and power over all sorts of things. Okay, so youāre headlong into it. Youāre teaching yoga, youāre a reiki master, youāre reading cards. Where does the metaphorical stop sign come, or what does it look like, a yield sign or ā¦?
Jordan: I was just so deep into this stuff and at the darkest time in my life. I can remember struggling with depression. I was putting on this faƧade like I had all the wisdom of the universe and all the secrets and the keys to life and abundance, manifesting joy and peace. And really, behind the scenes, I was struggling deeply with anxiety and depression. And I was at such a low point and such a dark point that I remember saying I preferred not to live anymore. And I was also experiencing things. Because my intentions were good, I thought that I was helping myself; I thought that I was helping other people, and my intentions were good. But what I didnāt know was that I was playing in the spiritual realm, and I was opening doors to places that I didnāt realize I shouldnāt be going. And so I was welcoming in darkness, and I was welcoming in the enemy. In my article, I said that I was laying down a welcome mat for deception and darkness.
And so it got so bad, I was experiencing sleep paralysis, just so many things were happening, and I reached such a low. And at that time, I was dating someone, and the guy that I was dating had just lost his brother. He was an atheist, and he told me one morning that he had a dream, and in the dream, he had met Jesus. And so he told me about this dream, and I didnāt know what to do with it because I had all of these opinions about Christianity, I had all these opinions about Jesus. I believed that Jesus was just a prophet, a historical figure, a teacher. I had even subscribed to the fact that maybe Jesus was some ascended masterāyouāll hear that in the New Age. And I also had so many opinions about the bible, and I had never read it.
So hearing him say, āI had this dream about Jesus,ā I didnāt know what to do with it, but I thought, you know, heās going through a lot, and Iām going to support him, no matter what that looks like. So I just kind of listened. And then he startedānext thing I know, like every time I see him, heās got his nose in the Bible. And then heās like, āI want to go to church. I want to find a church.ā And Iām just like, āWhat is happening?ā
Jonathan: Whereās my atheist boyfriend?
Jordan: Yeah! It served me when I was in the New Age because I could kind of pull from any sort of belief and make it true, or true in my mind, I should say. And so being with an atheist matched that for me.
Jonathan: He wasnāt giving you any insight.
Jordan: No, and he wasnāt challenging me in any sort of way, either, to think otherwise. Because I could think whatever came my way, I could think that it was true. And so Iām seeing him checking out churches and reading the Bible, and I remember one time, it was on a Saturday, and I was working, and I text-messaged him and said, āWhat are you up to?ā And he said, āOh, Iām just watching Passion of the Christ.ā And I was like, āFor fun? Like this is what you do for fun now?ā
Jonathan: Just another Saturday afternoon.
Jordan: I was really confused. But I did become curious. So, since Iād seen him reading the Bible so much, I wondered, āWhat is in there that has gotten your attention? What are you reading?ā And he started to tell me some things he was reading, and I was like, āReally? That's in the Bible?ā I didnāt know what was in the Bible; Iād never read it, but I thought I knew what it was all about. I feel silly thinking back on it. And so I remember him asking me to watch a movie called Son of God. And I just really was like, I donāt think that I want to watch a movie about Jesus in my spare time. I donāt want to watch a movie about Jesus for fun. And I was just so averse to thatāeven though a part of me was curious about what was happening in him, curious about what he was learning, that I eventually did say, āOkay, Iāll watch this movie.ā
And so I sat down to watch the movie. I remember very distinctly that I donāt remember what part of the movie, and I canāt even tell you how the movie was, whether it was good or not, but all I can remember was there was a moment where I just started weeping. And it was a cry that Iād never cried before. And I was weeping, and at the same time that I was weeping, I felt this overwhelming feeling of love. I was just enveloped in this overwhelming feeling of love.
And I was just crying and crying, and I remember looking over at my boyfriend and him looking at me, and I was just like, āWhat? What? Donāt look at me! Iām having this experience. I donāt know what's going on.ā
But I realized at that moment that it was God. And I knew that God was after my heart. Ever since that moment, I have thought, I want to feel that again and know what this is all about. I want to know what God is all about. I thought I knew best because Iād had so many different experiences throughout my life, especially in the New Age. And after that moment, I felt compelled to read the Bible. I ended up going and buying a Bible. Once I started reading the Bible, I realized that so many things were taken from the Bible and repackaged in the New Age so that people could either digest it better or make it more appealing to people. And ultimately, I guess, make it less offensive.
So I was reading these things, and Iām like, Oh my goodness. I remember learning about this in the New Age, but under such different circumstances, under deception. And so as I was reading, I felt this sorrow that I knew what I had been doing was wrong, and I knew that I had been sinning against God, and I felt really bad, but in a way that it was a godly sorrow. But Iām realizing, Oh my goodness, I see the truth. I see the truth now. And as Iām reading Godās Word, Iām like, Oh my gosh, I was doing all of these things unknowingly against the God who created me. And so I thought that I knew who āGod,ā I say in quotation marks, who God was. I always called God āthe universeā and thought that this universe was handing me my cards in life, not knowing that God is a person who is alive andā
Jonathan: Revealed Himself andā
Jordan: He has revealed Himself to me, and Iām learning the truth.
Jonathan: You mentioned that you thought you knew what the Bible was about. So, in that lifestyle, what did you think the Bible was about?
Jordan: I thought the Bible was just this tool to oppress people. I thought that it was so outdated and that it was just a tool for the patriarchy. I thought that it was anti-women. You know, I was really big into feminism, so I thought it was anti-women. I thought it was just anti-people, really, and that it was trying to create systems of oppression. And yeah, I just thought that people who read the Bible and Christians were stuck in an old paradigm and not realizing that it was me who was deceived.
Jonathan: You mentioned that as you began to read Scripture, you found some of the things taught in the New Age were disambiguation or twisting of scriptural text. What were some examples of things you read and found the original purpose versus the twisted interpretation you were given?
Jordan: Yeah, I remember one thing when I read about Godās loving-kindness. That word stuck out to me because, in the New Age, there was something called meta meditation, a loving-kindness meditation that focuses first on the self. So, youāre meditating, focusing on yourself, and giving love to yourself. And then it goes out to other people and returns to yourself. You always start and end with yourself and other people in between, and so youāre giving loving kindness to yourself and others. But when I read about Godās loving-kindness, and I saw that word, I was like, Oh my gosh, here I am just really glorifying myself in this and thinking that, Oh, because Iām thinking of others, my intentions are good and pure, not realizingā
Jonathan: Ultimately, youāre thinking about yourself.
Jordan: Yes. A big part of the New Age is the huge emphasis on self and the glorification of self. So yeah, that was a big one for me, the meta meditation that I learned in the New Age and then seeing that itās Godās loving-kindness that all this stems from.
And then the biggest one was I remember doing a meditation, I think it was with Eckhardt Tolle, that one, and he, in this meditation, he said when you meditate, and you ask yourself who you are, youāre probably going to come up with all the wrong answers. And Iām paraphrasing here, but he said that the real, the correct answer to āWho are you?ā when youāre meditating is āI am.ā
Jonathan: Whoa!
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know now as a Christian that is so blasphemous.
Jonathan: Old and New Testament, right?
Jordan: Yes. Yes. So you know you think about this. Youāre sitting there in meditation saying, āI am,ā and yeah, now thinking back on it, Iām justā¦
Jonathan: Fascinating.
Jordan: Yeah. So blasphemous. And believing, again, that's just like emphasis on the self.
Jonathan: Yeah, and again, back to the garden. I am a god.
Jordan: I am a god, yes. Yeah.
Jonathan: Iād be curious to hear your thoughts on this. I feel like we are seeing some believers being tempted; itās very much in the Hollywood culture to combine some New Age with Christianity as a form of getting closer to Christ. I know you talk about the Christ consciousness in your article, which I think is Friedrich Schleiermacher, but because youāre so aware of the New Age practices, you lived it out; maybe youād give us some examples of where youāre seeing that in churches or individuals and maybe kind of throw out some of the warning signs of where people could be leaning into that, and the red flags are going up for you.
Jordan: Yes. Another phrase for that would be āreligious syncretism.ā This means fusing more than one religion or belief to create a new religion. And that's exactly what the New Age isāborrowing from different religions. I would say thereās so much that can be said about this, where youāre seeing the New Age pervade the church today.
One of those things that Iāve run across a lot lately is yoga in the church, and Christians are turning it into holy yoga and and so taking a practice that comes from Hinduism and Christianizing it. But you canāt Christianize a practice that comes from another religion and think that youāre glorifying the God of the Bible. So I see a lot of that happening. I also see even churches not preaching from the Bible, not preaching the gospel, or using the Bible. I had a friend tell me before that he was attending church, and he loved it because they didnāt use the bible at all.
Jonathan: Itās the best church ever.
Jordan: I was thinking, Wow! That's not church.
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah. What's the authority theyāre teaching on?
Jordan: Yeah, yeah. So even that, I would say, is New Age in and of itself. I would also say the law of attraction. You see a lot of that in churchesāname it, and claim it.
Jonathan: Right. Sort of a prosperity gospel kind of, yeah.
Jordan: Yeah, that. So youāre seeing a lot of that come into the churches. Even crystals themselves come into the churches or meditate. But Scripture tells us to meditate on the Word of God, not to empty our thoughts, not to empty our minds of thoughts, but our thoughts are supposed to be focused on what is good and holy.
Jonathan: Yeah, right.
Jordan: So, thereās that. Along with the law of attraction, thereās that word of faith. I would also say the whole follow your heart, believe in yourselfā
Jonathan: Be true to yourself.
Jordan: Yeah, be true to yourself. There is so much emphasis on self, which will also lead you down a road of chasing after what feels good. If youāre following your heart, youāre chasing after what feels good, but that's not what weāre supposed to do as Christians. Weāre supposed to follow Jesus.
Jonathan: Well, and to see that our hearts are deceived ā¦ deceitful, wicked, theyāre bent in on themselves, as Calvin says. Theyāre inwardly bent on worshiping themselves. Yeah, that's true, and that's part of pop culture, right? That seems like the motif of almost every childās movie through Disney. Itās the belief in yourself, trust in yourself, and you just want to say that won't end well.
Jordan: Itās not going to end well. No, itās not. Yeah, I think Jeremiah says that the heart is deceitful.
Jonathan: Thatās right. There will be people listening to this who have a friend or a relative who may be dabbling in this or caught up in it. What's your suggestion for the best way to start a conversation? Is it just to order many copies of the Son of God or Passion of the Christ and then start showing movies? Obviously, that's how the Lord worked for you. But what are your recommendations for beginning those conversations?
Jordan: When I told my testimony, many people said, āWell, what movie is it?ā
Jonathan: We need to go buy it!
Jordan: Yeah. And I want to say even if you watch that movie, it doesnāt mean youāll have the same experience that I had. And if you have people who are in the New Age, thereās a disconnect here that I think Christians are missing. Part of that is understanding the root cause of why people went to the New Age in the first place. So, understanding what it is drew them there first and validating their experience. So if itās childhood trauma, if youāve had experiences and people are telling you youāre crazy, itās listening to understand someone to start, instead of jumping down someoneās throat and saying, āWell, youāre wrong, and this is the truth, and this is what's right,ā itās understanding what brought them there in the first place and validating their experience that got them there.
But then let them know that there is a better way and that the truth is that there is hope in Jesus Christ, a peace that surpasses all understanding in Him, and give your testimony of how Jesus has worked in your life. And so I think if people have loved ones that are stuck in New Age that itās more of being a good example of Jesus, being the hands and the feet of Jesus, and like I said, listening to understand; knowing thereās a root cause for why they got there. And I do get pushback from Christians who will say, āWell, you donāt want to enable the sin.ā But you canāt have someone conclude that they are a sinner until theyāve first heard about where theyāre at and why theyāve come to this place. And if they donāt understand what that is, then, of course, theyāre not going to want to listen.
I have a friend with whom Iāve been friends for 30 years, and she has been praying for me for just as long. There were times that she would want to speak to me about Jesus and want to talk about the Gospel and would send me books and movies and things like that, and my first reaction was to throw it out. And it wasnāt because she was doing anything wrong; it was where I was. And I think people have to understand that itās not personal. So if you are talking to someone in the New Age and they are not taking what youāre saying and just suddenly becoming a believer, itās not personal, and that this really is a spiritual battle and youāre told to plant the seed.
Jonathan: One of the fruit of the Spirit is patience.
Jordan: Absolutely. A lifetime of 40 years is a long time to be patient, but if thereās any encouragement in that, itās that Iāve spent 13 years in the New Age, my friend has been praying for me for 30 years, and ultimately, I came to Christ. And so for people who are stuck in this, watch them suffer and watch them go down these paths to just stay steadfast in your faith and stay steadfast in prayer. And know that this is a spiritual battle and itās not personal. Itās not about you.
Jonathan: And itās not over.
Jordan: Itās not over, that's for sure.
Jonathan: In your Gospel Coalition article, you mentioned that youāre working on resources to help guide people in the New Age to freedom in Christ. What are some of those resources? Are they available at the moment? Are we still working on them?
[31:25] Jordan Taylor: Yeah. Unfortunately, I donāt have anything available yet. I wish I did. Iām pausing social media at this point. Since my testimony went viral on Facebook, my platform has become kind of crazy, and I always get DMs. I have a lot of similar or common questions that come up or topics that come up, so Iād like toāright now, while Iām off of social media, Iām kind of working on some content and information to put out there so that people can find something to either find encouragement for the Christians that have people that are in the New Age.
Or encourage people who are in the New Age and want out. Believe it or not, some people are in the New Age and are being called by Jesus, and they know it and are struggling toā
Jonathan: They feel imprisoned.
Jordan: Yes. So, Iām working on some resources. I donāt know when they will all be available, but for right now, I will probably be off social media through Easter, and Iām hoping that come springtime, Iāll have some stuff to put out there for people.
Jonathan: Wow, that's wonderful. I think itās an absolutely needed resource, again, as weāve said, in this day and age where young people are looking for answers, theyāre dealing with hurts, and theyāre turning to all sorts of thingsādifferent religions, different ā¦ and New Age is definitely one of those near the forefront of those options. As you said, that tends to come up for Google searches, yoga, meditation, and everything else. And so, Jordan Taylor, weāre just so grateful for how the Lord is using you, and we pray that He will equip you with what you need as you put those resources together. Weāll keep our listeners up to speed as those become available. Your article on the Gospel Coalition, for those who are interested, is called āI Left New Age for Jesus.ā And that's thegospelcoalition.org.
Jordan, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us on Candid Conversations.
Jordan: Thank you so much for having me.
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Jonathan shares the balance between enjoying life's pleasures and not letting them overshadow our primary purpose: to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Inspired by insights from the digital age and the wisdom of scripture, this reflection confronts the challenges of navigating a world designed to capture our attention, discussing the impact of entertainment on our spiritual journey.
Listen now to receive Biblical insight on how to live intentionally in a distraction-filled world, finding joy and purpose in God's presence above all else.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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In this NEW episode of Candid Conversations, host Jonathan Youssef welcomes Dave Hubbard back to the program. Dave is a former NFL football player and pastor at The Church of The Apostles. In this encouraging episode, he shares his rich experiences and insights on serving both within the church and in the broader community. With a background that spans professional sports to full-time ministry, Dave offers a unique perspective on the importance of active service and its challenges and rewards.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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