Afleveringen
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As Trump’s trade war heats up and his anti-NATO rhetoric continues, America’s allies are having to face a new reality: the global superpower can no longer be relied upon. As core allies like the EU, UK and Canada recalibrate, what does that mean for America? And what does that mean for America’s traditional European allies who rely on the U.S. for their defence?
To discuss the future of NATO and Five Eyes, Jason is joined by longtime friend of the Pod, Kori Schake. She has lived her entire professional life advocating for the Transatlantic Alliance and American global leadership. She started her career as NATO desk officer at DoD under GHW Bush and is now Director of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).
Kori and Jason look at what might happen if America further withdraws from the world and abandons its traditional allies; what happens next in Ukraine; if Trump has a real peace plan; and how his cabinet members are acting like a megaphone rather than as genuine advisors. The duo look at scary scenerios: like what happens if the US tried to kick Canada out of the Five Eyes Intelligence sharing partnership and why Trump’s allies drive his policy choices towards the extremes.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support us as we try to support NATO and Five Eyes - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
Hear Kori previously on Episode 6 NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9472a8b7d262dd9fb0cd9827e8947964
Read Kori’s piece in The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/02/intelligence-agencies-weakened/681711/
Check out her views on Signalgate: https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/the-wrong-signals-the-proper-role-of-a-defense-secretary/
And hear her on AEI’s ‘What the Hell’ Podcast talking US Defence policy: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wth-a-european-supreme-allied-commander-of-nato/id1467993804?i=1000701043889
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Europe and the US are increasingly having differing approaches to everything from free trade to free speech to combatting disinformation to defence to the role of the judiciary. What does that mean for Global Order? Or rather – in our mad mad mad mad world – what does this mean for the extent of Global Disorder?
In this episode, hosts Alexandra Hall Hall and Jason Pack are reunited in person in DC. Jason talks of his misadventures on Capitol Hill – and relates anecdotes he has picked up about the DOGE sledgehammer, Republicans bullying Canadians, and the post-apocalyptic feeling of the place. Jason and Alex anchor the episode around the divergence btw the US and Europe on issues of: Democracy, Misinformation, Corruption and Fraud; National Security/Foreign Policy; and Economy/Tariffs.
They delve into the way the political climate ‘feels’ in the US under Trump's administration, and the differences in judicial accountability of major political figures between the US and Europe – looking at the Le Pen case in particular. Jason expresses his mad admiration of France and Sweden.
Plus: could civil disobedience grow in the US? Are Trump’s policies being decided by non-experts who launder Russian misinformation like Laura Loomer – a new Tiktok influencer Rasputin? And can Kier Starmer be bold enough to help us Order the Disorder? And what can Sir Keir learn from Canada’s Mark Carney who seems naturally gifted at standing up to Trump. So, ELBOWS UP, dear Mega Orderers.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support what we do - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
Read Alex’s interview with Tom Malinowski: https://bylinetimes.com/2025/03/22/why-the-democrats-must-start-fighting-back-against-trump-and-musk/
Read Trump’s firing of NSA chief is ‘rolling out the red carpet’ for cyber attacks: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/04/trump-fires-nsa-cyber-command-timothy-haugh-00273859
Read Trump Has Already Botched His Own Bad Tariff Plan https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/04/trump-negotiation-tariff/682300/
For more on Laura Loomer: Far-right activist who met Trump before he fired NSC officials: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly8y27dwgpo
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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Corruption, corruption, everywhere corruption. And no attempt to stop it in sight. As Trump and his cronies get rich from cypto, dismantle government, and propose their companies fulfilled outsourced contracts, the meta analysis of the new administration appears plain and simple: The tariffs, the strategic crypto fund, meme coin, it is all just corruption out in the open.
If it is so plain for all to see, how are they getting away with it?
To find out, Jason is joined by Frank Vogl. Formerly a foreign correspondent for The Times (UK), and then a senior official at the World Bank, Frank set up Transparency International in 1993, and then co-founded the Partnership for Transparency Fund in 1998. These two global organizations are at the forefront in the fight by civil society against corruption. Now, Frank is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and the author of many articles and two books on global corruption – ‘The Enablers’ and ‘Waging War on Corruption’.
In their discussion, Jason and Frank delve into the overt corruption of various decisions early in the 2nd Trump Administration, providing a focus on the role cryptocurrency plays in this corruption. Then, they look at the dismantling of anti-corruption mechanisms, and the transformation of the Republican Party into a vehicle for Trumpism and mafioso crony enrichment of Trump’s allies. Then: they analyse the complicity of Western nations in enabling corruption, and the economic implications of these actions.
Finally, as they Order the Disorder, Frank pushes for the establishment of an international anti-corruption court, and argues that European governments can and should step up to help fight back against this corruption.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
For more on Frank’s work visit - https://www.frankvogl.com/news
For more on Transparency International - https://www.transparency.org/en/
Get Frank’s book The Enablers: How the West Supports Kleptocrats and Corruption - Endangering Our Democracy - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enablers-Kleptocrats-Corruption-Endangering-Democracy-ebook/dp/B09JGL62L1/
Get Frank’s book Waging War on Corruption: Inside the Movement Fighting the Abuse of Power - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waging-War-Corruption-Movement-Fighting/dp/1442218533/
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On 3 June 2024, Synnovis, a provider of pathology services to the NHS in London, detected the first stages of a ransomware attack. The ransomware quickly spread through Synnovis’ networks, encrypting systems and stealing sensitive data. Not for the first time, a ransomware attack had become a matter of life and death.
The attack, which was later claimed by Qilin, a Russian-speaking cybercriminal gang, was a stark example of how cybercrime has become a national security threat. Attacks against hospitals, schools and businesses of all shapes and sizes have normalised what should be intolerable: cybercriminals, in many cases harboured by hostile states, regularly disrupting and extorting victims, causing misery in the process and creating disorder for the UK economy and society.
To help us understand this challenge, and as part of our ongoing series of episodes featuring top experts from the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), Arthur was joined by Jamie MacColl, a Research Fellow in Cyber and Tech at RUSI. Jamie's research focuses on the national security implications of cybercrime, including the relationships between hostile states and cybercriminals. He has given evidence on ransomware on more than one occasion to the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy and also represents RUSI at the Counter Ransomware Initiative, a multilateral grouping of more than 80 countries committed to combating ransomware. Prior to working at RUSI, Jamie worked as a cyber threat intelligence analyst in the private sector. When not working on cybercrime, he is the guitarist in the British band Bombay Bicycle Club.
They discuss the current state of ransomware, its scale and impact, the role played by rogue states such as Russia and North Korea, and the reasons for the lack of coordinated international progress in combating the issue.
Finally, as Jamie and Arthur order the disorder, Jamie proposes moving our response to ransomware from the current failing law enforcement model, to an intelligence and counter-terrorism led approach.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Show Notes Links:
More on the RUSI Disorder partnership - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast
Become RUSI members for more of their brilliant content: https://my.rusi.org/membership.html
Follow Arthur’s pod Behind The Lines: https://open.spotify.com/show/4bpdB1iEN3irFueS5CMuq5
High-level summaries on ransomware as a national security threat: https://www.economist.com/international/2023/12/31/how-ransomware-could-cripple-countries-not-just-companies
Read RUSI piece The Rise of Ransomware as a National Security Threat: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/organised-cybercrime-rise-ransomware-national-security-threat
Read RUSI piece Beyond the Bottom Line: The Societal Impact of Ransomware: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/beyond-bottom-line-societal-impact-ransomware
Read about the links between cybercrime and state threats: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/issue-brief/untangling-the-russian-web/
Read RUSI article Ransomware: A Life and Death Form of Cybercrime https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ransomware-life-and-death-form-cybercrime
Read about the impact of ransomware on the UK: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/occasional-papers/ransomware-victim-insights-harms-individuals-organisations-and-society
Read Ransomware: A Life and Death Form of Cybercrime from RUSI: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ransomware-life-and-death-form-cybercrime
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Can Britain and the EU step up to Trump's bullying and order the disorder via increasing sanctions and possibly confiscating currently frozen Russian assets and using them to fund Ukrainian defence? This is certainly the question of the day and we at Disorder tackle it via our first live show recorded on March 21 at the famous Frontline Club in London. Jason Pack was joined by Sir Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker, author of Punishing Putin.
The trio discussed the role of sanctions in deterring Putin, and whether the West can finally go further and use seized Russian funds. Plus: Trump’s role – and if Europe (alongside Starmer and Carney) will finally step up to the plate. And they finish with listener questions addressing everything from what happens when Putin dies to if sanctions even work in the first place.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
Hear our other recent episode with Sir Bill https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/84604876351c72eed9ce64fd4031a343
Hear our previous episode with Stephanie Baker https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/d478c812a95d36c7ee6bf7c7beef4ccf
For more on Stephanie visit https://stephaniebakerwriter.com/
Read Sir Bill’s piece calling for Russian asset seizure:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14418689/UK-Europe-Russia-frozen-billions-Ukraine-noble-cause.html
And his article co-authored with a leading Ukranian lawyer, Yulia Ziskina calling for seizure of Russia’s state assets: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-22/if-trump-cuts-ukraine-aid-the-west-should-seize-russian-assets
Watch United States has ‘abandoned Ukraine’ | Bill Browder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImN1fFJKHIc
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This is the second part of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.
Please listen to Part 1 before coming to this episode.
In this conversation, Julia and Jason focus on how extreme ideas enter the mainstream and the implications of the concept of the ‘Overton Window’ [more on that in the links below] for how the boundaries of acceptable political discourse change as ever more extreme ideas are articulated. Jason pushes Julia to draw on her undercover work among the incel community to explain their worldview and the centrality of the concept of being red-pilled.
And as they Order the Disorder, they discuss the importance of defending expertise in public discourse and Julia proposes an institution that could prevent people from falling into conspiracy theories.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
For an explanation of the Overton window visit https://theweek.com/102517/the-overton-window-explained
For more on Julia visit https://www.julia-ebner.com/speaker
For a great video about her life and experiences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4Kv6P6VII
Get Julia’s book ‘Going Mainstream: Why extreme ideas are spreading, and what we can do about it’ - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Mainstream-extreme-ideas-spreading/dp/1804183784
Read Jason’s article, ‘A lizard person’s guide to US election conspiracy theories’ in the New European: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/
Listen: Episode 77 - The System is Rigged: Conspiracy theories and the revenge of the losers https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/cc41cbf3e1c05fb8a696e0faad151283 This is the second part of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.
Please listen to Part 1 before coming to this episode.
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Extremist ideologies and the conspiracy vehicles that carry them are now heard throughout mainstream social and political discourse. Whether it’s Trump parroting falsehoods about migrants eating dogs and cats or Robert F. Kennedy Jr. parroting debunked claims about how vaccines cause autism, extreme viewpoints cloaked in conspiracy theories are now frequently articulated by those in offices of power.
How has this happened? When did the extremes become mainstream? And what draws people to these radical ways of thinking in the first place? Then as we delve deeper why do extremists so frequently rely on conspiracy theories to articulate their political programs? Why don’t they come out and just voice the radical or exclusionary political program directly? Why do they conceal it via complex conspiracy theories about Lizards, Pedophilia rings, and a Jewish plot to dilute the purity of the white race?
This is the first episode of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.
The duo delve into the intricate relationship between conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies. Analysing how conspiracy theories serve as a unifying force among various radical groups, by providing a framework for scapegoating and explaining grievances. Plus: the psychological appeal of conspiracy myths, their role in modern political movements, and the historical context that shapes these narratives
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
For more on Julia visit https://www.julia-ebner.com/speaker
Get Julia’s book ‘Going Mainstream: Why extreme ideas are spreading, and what we can do about it’ - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Mainstream-extreme-ideas-spreading/dp/1804183784
Read Jason’s article, ‘A lizard person’s guide to US election conspiracy theories’ in the New European: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/
Listen: Episode 77 - The System is Rigged: Conspiracy theories and the revenge of the losers https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/cc41cbf3e1c05fb8a696e0faad151283
For a great video about her life and experiences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4Kv6P6VII
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In this special episode of Disorder, you can hear some of the highlights from our first ever live show event at RUSI. To start things off, Jason Pack was joined on stage by his fellow co-hosts, Alex Hall Hall, Jane Kinninmont and Arthur Snell. The panel discussed how they experience Disorder in their own lives, as well as what they perceive makes this historic period novel.
Then, Jane and Alex departed the stage, while Arthur and Jason were joined by Neil Melvin, RUSI’s Director of International Security. The trio investigated if Trump actually has a grand strategy and is deliberately accelerating the long durée US pivot to Asia or if he is merely a strategic-less deliberate Disorderer. Then the trio looked at the role Europe plays in global security, while Neil and Jason had an agreeable -- and not even staged -- disagreement about the ideal position the UK can play in global security – should the UK continue cozying up to the US? Or seek to counterbalance it by forging new relationships and convening a coalition of orderers?
Lastly, the recording ends with a Lord of the Rings-themed question from a Mega-Ordering audience member. If you would like to hear the rest of the audience questions and have access to the full recording, please join the pay for substack.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack (paid members can listen to the whole unedited event including listener q and a): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
More on the RUSI Disorder partnership - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast
Become RUSI members for more of their brilliant content: https://my.rusi.org/membership.html
And From Neil Melvin Read: Europe's attitude to Trump is dangerously naive. He demands action, not words: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/21/europes-attitude-trump-dangerously-naive-he-demands-action/
And for more on Neil’s bio: https://www.rusi.org/people/melvin
Read Jane’s piece about OSCE’s potential role - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/its-time-to-use-the-osce/
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Forget Christianity, Judaism, New Age Spirituality, and Buddhism, a new type of religion drives 21st century Western thought. It goes by the shadowy name of Neoliberalism: the commodification of everything; Markets and the private sector ascendent; The deliberate attempt to reduce – especially through privatisation and austerity – state power, regulatory capacity, and government’s ability to influence the economy. Over the past few decades, from Thatcher and Reagan, to Blair and Clinton, the whole world was incentivized to embrace neoliberal reforms. The result? Our public services are crumbling. Governments have lost the ability to build roads and hospitals. Governments are no longer driving cutting edge innovation. And a new class of super rich neoliberal oligarchs – Musk, the Koch brothers, Bezos, Zuckerburg, and the cryptobros – are spreading Disorder. To help us find governmental Order amidst all this privatized Disorder, Jason is joined by George Monbiot -- Guardian columnist and co-author of ‘The Invisible Doctrine: The Secret History of Neoliberalism (& How It Came to Control Your Life)’. In their conversation, the duo chart the evolution of neoliberalism and how it has shifted core governance functions (like transport, health care, and security) from the public sector to private enterprises, leading to a new form of oligarchy. Plus: they look at the failures of centrist politicians to come up with compelling alternatives and they hypothesize about the psychological motivations of the wealthy elite. Finally, as they Order the Disorder, they put forward the need for a new political narrative that emphasises community and solidarity - especially on a local level. Producer: George McDonagh Executive Producer: Neil Fearn Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links: Get George Monbiot and Peter Hutchison’s book The Invisible Doctrine: The Secret History of Neoliberalism (& How It Came to Control Your Life) - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455534/the-invisible-doctrine-by-hutchison-george-monbiot-and-peter/9780241635902 For more on the New Books Network which runs lots of podcasts about every sort of topic - https://newbooksnetwork.com/ And for an NBN podcast on the historic origins of neo-liberalism check out: https://newbooksnetwork.com/neoliberalism Read George’s piece - Trump and Musk have launched a new class war. In the UK, we must prepare to defend ourselves - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/19/donald-trump-elon-musk-class-war-uk-us-oligarchies-democracy Listen back to our episode with Harvey Whitehouse (start with P1) - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/36cb340116979a4aa2dfdca524988d27 And buy his book out now in paperback: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/451443/inheritance-by-whitehouse-harvey/9781529159158 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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When it comes to Russia, Trump’s America appears on the verge of a major foreign policy U-turn. A couple of weeks ago, Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator and lyingly claimed that Ukraine had started the war. Then there was the February 28 ‘Oval Office Ambush’ heard round the world. Don’t forget that after years of isolating and sanctioning Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, Team Trump met face to face with the Russian Foreign Minister in Saudi and now appears ready to do direct business with Russia and to be actively seeking to humiliate the Ukrainians.
Despite these worrying moves, at the moment, the U-turn remains hypothetical… all words, not yet binding actions. So… how seriously should we take this perspective shift? Does the ‘Vance/Trump Oval Office Ambush’ change everything? And what are the implications for Europe and its allies if America actually switches sides to support Russia long term?
To discuss this perilous moment, we’re joined again by Sir Bill Browder, a successful investor, a globally acclaimed author, and a famous philanthropist/humanitarian advocate. Browder’s tireless advocacy for holding dictators and their henchman to account is widely known. He was a guest on the Disorder programme in Ep 26, a few days after his friend Alexei Navalny was murdered by Putin. [NB: the interview at the core of this episode was recorded on Feb 26 before the Oval Office Trump/Zelenskyy/Vance meeting.]
Today, Jason and Sir Bill discuss the transactional nature of Trump 2.0 and the seek to work out whether the recently announced Ukraine mineral deal actually amounts to a hill of beans. Browder emphasizes the unpredictability of the situation, the moral implications of Trump’s proposed U-turn.
Finally: as they Order the Disorder, Bill and Jason discuss the practicalities of how to turn confiscate currently frozen Russian assets and use them to fund Ukrainian defence.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to attend our March 11th event at RUSI): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links:
Jason’s substack on the the Oval Office Trump/Vance ambush of Zelenskyy: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/he-may-not-be-a-russian-agent-but
For a podcast produced out of Kyiv and dedicated just to the War in Ukraine: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/history-in-the-making-the-war-in-ukraine/id1752915858
Watch Bloomberg Editor Javier Blas on the fact that Ukraine doesn’t have any significant rare earths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=nqJ6Vgetyn8&t=23s&fbclid=IwY2xjawIuZ8ZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfHqQQ2oA1u0f9dwlY57utRKDAlMk3uustcJ_QaiEBTeO2Duhzu5d1guUA_aem_CogDpEa6G7WcwC-7R5q6DQ
Read the FT explainer of the US-Ukraine Mineral deal: https://www.ft.com/content/1890d104-1395-4393-a71d-d299aed448e6
Listen to our previous episode with Sir Bill Browder: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece
Read Sir Bill’s piece calling for Russian asset seizure:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14418689/UK-Europe-Russia-frozen-billions-Ukraine-noble-cause.html
And his article co-authored with a leading Ukranian lawyer, Yulia Ziskina calling for seizure of Russia’s state assets: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-22/if-trump-cuts-ukraine-aid-the-west-should-seize-russian-assets
Watch United States has ‘abandoned Ukraine’ | Bill Browder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImN1fFJKHIc
For more on illicit funds and foreign interference, listen to our recent episode with Peter Geoghegan: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a7b4de27e0e05e297d97a505357d7050
Part 1 & 2 with Tom Burgis on the issue of UK’s permissiveness over foreign political financing https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/e003625c25e8ce63dda398369bfea54b / https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/2ccf0f088b7679b5b053679466f6a42d
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Today, Jason and Alexandra answer some probing listener questions. They discuss the role of the UK in global politics, and the implications of Brexit. Dissect the challenges of maintaining progressive values amidst backlash, and the potential for Keir Starmer's leadership in navigating the UK's future relationship with the EU. They finish by talking about tax breaks for billionaires, and why following the money is important to understanding the Disorder we are living through.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack to get details of our March 11th event at RUSI: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
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Description:
As Trump and his cronies attempt to tear down all the checks and balances which have traditionally governed how the Executive relates to other branches of American governance, especially over the issue of impoundment, will the Courts or Congress genuinely stand up? If they don’t, or are unable to, is America facing a genuine constitutional crisis? Or is the issue not so much a constitutional crisis but a coordination one - and because we’re in an era of peak disorder – Congress, the Courts, the Dems, popular opposition, protesters, Lincoln Project people, business advocates of non-monopolistic competition – aren’t able to coordinate coherently enough to make a difference? Also why are there not massive popular protests across America, or is now not the right time for them?
This week, Jason and Alex unpack these issues and more as they try to navigate listeners through the choppy seas of peak Disorder washing over the world. They reflect on the impact of recent Trump policies to defund USAID and undermine Ukraine, debating whether there’s any real coherent end goal to these radical policies beyond strewing Disorder. They also debate whether Trump’s America First agenda makes America stronger or weaker. Jason explains the importance of Russell Vought within Trump’s team, while arguing that Neo-populism isn’t actually about any real solutions or making America Stronger, but is merely about increasing the ‘Disorder and Distraction quotient’ to keep the Neo-populists in power.
Meanwhile, Alex and Jason argue that the Democratic Party needs to coalesce around a single ‘leader of the opposition’ type-figure to prosecute the case against Trump’s actions. They also dive into Lala-land with their alter-egos, Xela Llah Llah and Nosaj Kcap. They finish not by Ordering the Disorder, but by diagnosing exactly why the world is living through peak Disorder.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to attend our March 11th event at RUSI): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
To examine the real architect of the Disorder, listen to the Today Explained episode about Russell Vought https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/today-explained/id1346207297?i=1000693687429
To grasp the constitutional implications of what is transpiring, listen to the excellent 538 podcast with Galen Druke interviewing constitutional law professor Peter Shane https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trumps-theory-of-presidential-power/id1077418457?i=1000693800713
Read more from RUSI: by Jack Watling ‘US Clarity Underscores Ukraine’s Peril’, https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/us-clarity-underscores-ukraines-peril
Also by Jack but in the Guardian: ‘As the US walks away, Europe needs to step up for Ukraine. But does it have the will?’, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/16/us-europe-ukraine-russia-peace-analysis
And from Neil Melvin (our guest on our March 11 live recording) ‘Securing Ukraine is the UK’s Challenge, but It Needs to be Done Right’, https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/securing-ukraine-uks-challenge-it-needs-be-done-right
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In Munich last weekend, J.D. Vance shocked Europe with his speech castigating Europeans as having the ‘wrong values’ and not being ‘democratic’. Meanwhile, Trump and co. are doing the very democratic thing by being in Saudi Arabia and negotiating with Putin over Ukraine behind Zelenskyy’s back – possibly presaging ‘a deal’ that will be struck excluding Ukrainian input at all.
As this episode drops, European leaders are finally trying to get out in front of events by meeting in Paris in an emergency summit, to counter with their own ‘peace proposal’ that would actually be beneficial for Ukraine’s future. Disorderly much?
In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont tries to navigate these complexities in conversation with Jason Pack, as she brings us her personal reportage from last weekend’s Munich Security Conference. During her visit there, we hear three on-the-spot interviews (Serhiy Leschenko, advisor to Zelensky’s chief of staff Andriy Yermak; Todor Tagarev, former Bulgarian defence minister; and Ottilia Anna Maunganidze, head of special projects at the Institute of Security Studies) - discussing the shifting dynamics of US-European relations, the implications of Trump 2.0 on the Ukraine conflict, and the urgent need for Europe to reassess its defense priorities in light of potential US unpredictability. Plus: in an attempt to Order the Disorder, what can be done to foster unity among European nations?
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
Read more from RUSI: by Jack Watling ‘US Clarity Underscores Ukraine’s Peril’, https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/us-clarity-underscores-ukraines-peril
Also by Jack but in the Guardian: ‘As the US walks away, Europe needs to step up for Ukraine. But does it have the will?’, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/16/us-europe-ukraine-russia-peace-analysis
And from Neil Melvin (our guest on our March 11 live recording) ‘Securing Ukraine is the UK’s Challenge, but It Needs to be Done Right’, https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/securing-ukraine-uks-challenge-it-needs-be-done-right
For more on Jane’s interviewees and their outputs:
Serhiy Leschenko, advisor to Zelensky’s chief of staff Andriy Yermak - https://x.com/leshchenkos?lang=en
Todor Tagarev, former Bulgarian defence minister: his bio here - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/person/todor-tagarev/
And see his recent ECFR piece “prepare for the worst - four scenarios for Ukraine under Trump 2.0” -https://ecfr.eu/article/prepare-for-the-worst-four-scenarious-for-ukraine-under-trump-2-0/
Ottilia Anna Maunganidze, head of special projects at the Institute of Security Studies, headquartered in South Africa with offices in Senegal, Kenya and Ethiopia - https://issafrica.org/author/ottilia-anna-maunganidze
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With a major war raging in Europe, a seemingly more expansionist Trump in the Whitehouse, and China’s long held desire to invade Taiwan, is Britain prepared militarily?
It’s hard to tell. The current Labour government is still refusing to set out in detail its plans for Defence, including when it might increase spending to 2.5% of GDP. Instead, we are left waiting for the publication of a new Strategic Defence Review. So are Starmer and co missing an opportunity to be mega Orderers?
To understand these issues and more, for our first episode in partnership with the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), we’re joined by Matthew Savill. He’s the Director of Military Sciences at the London-based defence and security think tank. His team focusses on understanding trends in modern warfare and its impact on military strategy, capabilities and planning. Before joining RUSI he spent over 20 years in national security roles in government, starting as an intelligence analyst, and later moving on to policy and operations, working in both the Ministry of Defence and the UK Cabinet Office, and on deployments in Iraq, the Middle East and Afghanistan.
Jason and Matthew discuss on the UK's role in defense and security, the challenges faced by the UK in military procurement and capabilities, and the need for the UK to maintain its status as a major global player. They compare the approaches in France and the UK, and whether we’re in a potential pre-war era, and whether Britain needs to maintain independent military capacities.
As they Order the Disorder, they look at whether AI could be the way Britain becomes Mega Orderers, and Matthew leaves with a message for Starmer: invest in people.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
More on our partnership with RUSI - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast
Read Matthew’s analysis, Starmer’s New National Security Adviser: A Consequential Choice
- https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/starmers-new-national-security-adviser-consequential-choice
Read Matthew’s piece, A Hollow Force? Choices for the UK Armed Forces - https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/hollow-force-choices-uk-armed-forces
Read The Disintegrated Review? Britain and the Ukraine Crisis by Matthew https://wavellroom.com/2022/03/14/the-disintegrated-review/
Our episode on AI with Marc Warner - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/3f615a6ab068a88f5dcd8d444dbbb60f
Our episode with Jonathan Powell - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/94c9f3ec23902d3f606bffb43dc39928
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We’re entering a new age of political influence, where money generates attention, and attention generates influence. In this meta-verse, old fashion regulations about lobbying and advertising are no longer suffiecnet and people like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg rule the roost. So, what can be done?
To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by returning guest Peter Geoghegan, an Irish writer, journalist, and director of Democracy for Sale. The duo discuss: the pervasive influence of money in UK politics, how money buys attention and then indirectly influence, and this constellations implications for democracy. Peter tells Jane about the rise of super donors in UK politics and how social media algorithms spread Disorder.
To finish, they look at how to Order the Disorder. Peter pushes for transparency in governance, and tells Kier Starmer to put a spending cap on individual’s political donations.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
Hear our Previous episode with Peter - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a50fd0d6c8ad45567cac6b47cf060d4e
Peter’s website - https://www.petergeoghegan.com/
Peter’s substack - https://democracyforsale.substack.com/
RUSI’s Centre for Finance and Security specialises in the intersection of finance and global security. Their research includes work exploring the nature of the threat from global illicit flows, the harm they cause and how best to respond - https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/research-groups/centre-for-finance-and-security
Listen to Ezra Klein talking about the attention cycle - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/democrats-are-losing-the-war-for-attention-badly/id1548604447?i=1000684362481
Read Anne Applebaum’s piece on Musk and political interference in Europe https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/03/musk-tech-oligarch-european-election-influence/681453/
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Disorder is a podcast where we hate being right. Totally hate it. Jason truly loves being wrong. But fudge and fiddlesticks. Seems he is right again. The thing with neo-populists is that they don’t so much have policy agendas and goals, they just seek to disorder the universe by say – proposing to fire in a haphazard way 2 million U.S. government employees, or forcing out top FBI officials, or appointing officials for Senate confirmation to head government agencies that have overtly said they want to dismantle those specific agencies, or by randomly proposing to deport Palestinians from Gaza to Jordan against their will.
On today’s Emergency Cast, Jane and Jason spontaneously convene to deal with peak disorder and delve into all the interlocking crises, dead catting, plane crashing, impounding, tariff barrier erecting, and AID stopping that has come to a head during Trump’s Second Week of his Second Term.
In the Ordering the Disorder segment, Jane wonders how much of the world will respond by trying to figure out how to decouple - slowly, gradually, cautiously – from the U.S. because U.S. politics does not exactly seem at its most stable. And Jason muses that Canada, Mexico, the UK and the EU could have chosen to present a united front to Trump, but appear to have elected not to.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
This is a most compelling podcast from the 538 about the ways in which the Trump Presidency threatens the constitutional balance of powers and how the issue of Impoundment is at the very core of the structural and legal threat of Trumpism to 're-do' the underlying structures of America: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/fivethirtyeight-politics/id1077418457?i=1000687276109
From the Washington Post, ‘Senior U.S. official exists after rift with Musk Allies of Payment System’: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/01/31/elon-musk-treasury-department-payment-systems/
From CNN, ‘Inside 45 hours of chaos: The brief life and quick death of Trump’s federal spending freeze’: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/29/politics/inside-brief-life-trump-federal-spending-freeze/index.html
From CNN, ‘Trump suggests his plan for Gaza Strip is to ‘clean out the whole thing”’: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt/index.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawIJDhZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfyYNmWDBz3iKiscGQHjvHQx_ZfwOPriV_8VGZmlxTh1JhZ-_NiNKbntsw_aem_rjBE8gcyRVXKVXMhTc-mAQ
From Congressional Democrats, ‘Background on Unlawful Impoundment in President Trump’s Executive Orders’ https://democrats-appropriations.house.gov/news/fact-sheets/background-unlawful-impoundment-president-trumps-executive-orders
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In this episode, Jason and Alex tackle some probing listener questions. They return to a theme from previous episodes (especially the previous episode with Marcel Dirsus): whether today’s autocratic regimes (China, Russia, Iran) are actually as strong as they appear or might be weaker than we imagine. In response to multiple listen questions on this theme, Alex and Jason debate the cultural and economic missteps of the center-left and the importance of addressing real voter concerns about the pace of social and culture change in the face of rising populism.
Then the Disorder programme pushes out the envelope a bit exploring: the significance of secrecy in intelligence and diplomacy, the political realignment of blue-collar workers, and the looming threat of a cryptocurrency bubble.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
For more on our Partnership with RUSI: https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast
Alex’s article on the resemblance of Donald Trump to a Tituskhy: https://www.bylinesupplement.com/p/donald-trump-is-assembling-a-titushky
Listen to our episode on China’s economy: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/eaa3d94ed88eb3142a9f4ed571fe4a1f
Listen to our episode with Marcel Dirsus: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/bcd89a117331e217c82af1d018e28d9e
Hear Jason on The Bunker talking about post-Assad Syria and the Middle East in the age of Trump - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bunker/id1496246490?i=1000685022934
Jason was interviewed about backgammon and Gambling regulation by Sigma one of the leading Magazines in the e-gaming space, Sigma: https://sigma.world/news/the-art-of-risk/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
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During his second inaugural speech, Trump declared January 20th, 2025 as Liberation Day. His indoor inauguration kept the hoi polloi of the MAGA world literally out in the cold. Inside, the Rotunda was filled with billionaires and family members. Trump’s speech screamed performative sound and fury. "For many years, a radical and corrupt establishment has extracted power and wealth from our citizens, while the pillars of our society lay broken and seemingly in complete disrepair." He then said without a hint of joking, “I was saved by God to make America great again.” But beyond the pomp and circumstance, what meaningful actions is Trump taking in his first days in office?
Here at the Disorder programme, we try to help Order the Disorder by separating the performative sound and fury of Trump 2.0 from its actual meaningful actions. Jason’s hunch is that much of Trump 2.0 will be Kabuki theatre, as many of Trump’s so-called signature policies are things that he cannot enact as they violate the constitution, but a large implication of his overall programme is to foster deliberate disorder making the US completely different from other markets on things like EVs, oil and gas exploration, manufacturing, worker safety, and regulation, in general.
To break it all down, in this episode, Jason and Alex reflect on the implications of Trump's pronouncements, the combination of lofty Presidential rhetoric mixed with Trump’s standard American carnage imagery, why previous POTUSs and VPs showed up for the Inauguration, and the impact of Trump's executive orders. They also look at the ceasefire in the Middle East and examine if similar tactics might actually work with Russia/Ukraine.
Plus: the depressing and corrosive precedent of Biden's pardons, the shift in Silicon Valley's political allegiance, the role of BitCoin and AI on the American economy, the dynamics between the UK and US, and the role of the UK in a Trumpian World… Why can’t Starmer step up and be a mega Orderer?
To Order the Disorder, the pair suggest that Europe and aligned powers get their act together and start mega ordering, without the US in tow. The show concludes as Jason and Alex postulate that constraining Trump will not happen from external forces, but maybe just maybe there is a potential for the excesses of Trumpism to be contained or managed by internal forces within the Republican Party.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
For more on our Partnership with RUSI: https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast
More on Trump’s pardons for Jan 6th rioters https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/23/opinion/trump-pardons-bolton-jan-6.html
More on the Hamas-Israel ceasefire https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/23/world/middleeast/hamas-gaza-israel-cease-fire.html
Hear Jason on The Bunker - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-bunker/id1496246490?i=1000685022934
Jason was interviewed by Sigma one of the leading Magazines in the e-gaming space, Sigma: https://sigma.world/news/the-art-of-risk/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
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In 2022, Nina Jankowicz was appointed to a brand new role within the US Government – Executive Director of the DHS's Disinformation Governance Board, tasked with tackling disinformation. Within weeks, she was the target of a mass disinformation campaign – driven primarily by Fox News – that put her life, family and career at risk.
In today’s episode, Nina joins Arthur Snell to tell that story – and look at the role of dis- and mis-information around the globe. If the US under Trump turns into a deliberate disorderer in the information space, who will be left to order? There is an argument that medium powers like the UK, Brazil and the EU will hold the key to stemming the tide.
Nina is an expert on Russia, Eastern Europe and Ukraine, but in the early 2020s,
she became better known as an expert on disinformation. In 2022, she was appointed by
the Biden administration to the Disinformation Governance Board, part of the United States Department of Homeland Security. But after Fox attacked her personally, the role was pulled. Since then, she has worked in various NGOs and in other foundations, and her current work is with American Sunlight, which tries to counteract disinformation by providing clear information and research to Americans.
In her conversation with Arthur, she shares insights into the challenges of combating misinformation in the current political landscape, the role of media and big tech in amplifying disinformation, and the implications for democracy. Plus: the duo discuss shifting dynamics within the Republican Party regarding Russia, Elon Musk's influence, the rise of deepfake technology, and the gendered dimension to the violence that permeates online spaces.
And then as they try to Order the Disorder, they look at Brazil as a place where disinformation regulation is starting to work, the importance of information literacy, and what’s been done educationally in Ukraine, plus – could smaller, stronger online communities be the answer?
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
For more on Nina visit https://www.ninajankowicz.com/
For a CBS explainer on what happened to Nina and the role played by Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=64&v=z6havT5C9_M&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2F
Follow Arthur’s pod Behind The Lines https://open.spotify.com/show/4bpdB1iEN3irFueS5CMuq5
Read recent report from the American Sunlight Project on Deepfake Pornography Targeting Members of Congress https://www.americansunlight.org/updates/deepfake-pornography-targeting-members-of-congress
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A tentative ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas has been announced by the US and Qatar. The deal would see a phased release of Israeli hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and an end to Israeli bombardments. If the first round of conditions are met, the cease fire should continue and culminate in further negotiations for additional swaps of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners. But what’s next? Will it hold? And how do we get from this transactional bartering to longer term stability in the region?
To discuss this and more, Alex Hall Hall and Jane Kinninmont final co-host a podcast of their own. They (who both have on-the-ground experience in Gaza) discuss: the challenges of establishing trust between the conflicting parties; the fragility of the deal that is currently being agreed; and the need for Western leaders who are trying to leverage the sides for further progress to also emphasise with local populations’ concerns.
Plus: does Trump’s strongman diplomacy actually work?
As they Order the Disorder, the ladies discuss the potential for a new Palestinian leadership, the importance of political will/brinksmanship, and the need for a comprehensive approach to rebuilding Gaza – including addressing economic dependencies.
Producer: George McDonagh
Executive Producer: Neil Fearn
Subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Show Notes Links
Jane’s Nov 2023 analysis on need for Europe to chart a political pathway out of the violence - https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/commentary/europe-and-gaza-political-pathways-out-of-the-violence/
Jane’s 2020 article on virtual dialogue with Palestinian youth - https://theelders.org/news/palestinian-perspectives-future
Jane slags off Jared Kushner’s approach to “peace” in an oped for Haaretz during Trump 1 - https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2019-06-16/ty-article-opinion/.premium/jared-kushners-paradigm-busting-mideast-peace-deal-just-wont-work/0000017f-e9a9-d639-af7f-e9ffd4e00000
Read What Gazans Really Think of the War, Who They Blame, and What They Want to Happen Next by Alex https://bylinetimes.com/2024/09/20/gaza-hamas-israel-opinion-poll/
Polling from a youth-led Palestinian polling organisation:
https://institute4progress.org/
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