Afleveringen
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These will be the shortest show notes yet because I have more than enough words in the episode itself.
Listen for some unique insights from Board Game Arena developer ufm, and check out all of their BGA adaptations here (you might need to have an account to see this page?).
Also, thanks for being a part of this journey. It's been a blast.
Also also, I think the instructions for the giveaway are pretty clear, so listen to the episode for details on that.
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Justin Jacobson, owner and president of Restoration Games, joins the show to talk about what drives the company, especially as it's doing something quite different in the hobby board game space. In a world of “digital” remakes, remasters, and re-imaginings of all sorts of different texts, there really aren’t many analogous examples in the analog space. Hearing a lot of the story of Restoration Games, having a lengthy chat about one of my favorite game systems (I say one of, but it’s probably number one), and everything in-between makes this a very special episode.
Check out the Restoration Games website here.
Games, Law, and a Perfect Partnership (0:00)
Introductory information about the things Justin was playing, his work in law, and how all of that came together when he first started working with Rob Daviau.
UN-FREAKING-MATCHED (25:20)
The conversation here is simply Unmatched…
This section talks about card titles, evolution in the creation process, tournament play, the strength of the Restoration Games team, and more.
Return to Restoration Tower (50:25)
Part One- The soul of the restored game.
Part Two- Other texts in other mediums that Justin would like to see restored or brought back in some way.
Wrap-up Questions (1:06:47)
A text on Justin’s mind and what to look out for from Restoration Games in the future!
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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Daniel Newman, board game designer and New Mill Industries owner, joins the show today to talk about a bunch of really fun topics. The conversation includes, but is not limited to, New Mill, trick-taking games, punk rock, and how one could make impromptu card stands. With a focus on making different designs more readily available and finding work that might be a little too niche for the mainstream market, Daniel’s vision and work in the board gaming space fills a very unique and important space.
Check out the site for some pre-orders: https://www.newmillindustries.com/
Introduction (0:00)
What sort of things Daniel was playing and then designing and how that all led to the awesome publishing company he’s running these days.
“Punk Rock Starter Pack” (9:08)
A little bit of a discussion as to what punk means- its ethos and message and how that ties to Daniel’s vision- is followed by the show’s first ever Genre Starter Pack. Daniel brings up some awesome musicians and texts that capture the aforementioned ethos.
Focus and Design (24:45)
The evolution and increased output of New Mill demand different things from the publishing standpoint, so we talk about that balance and considerations regarding Daniel’s designs and how he’s looking to publish them.
A Couple of Trick-Takers (39:16)
With the preceding “twist” of the episode revealed by now, Daniel talks about a couple of his favorite trick-takers, with and without the additional mechanisms (twists, wrinkles, etc.).
Indie Games Night Market and Wrap-up Questions (45:45)
After briefly talking about the Indie Games Night Market previously in the episode, the little chat about it here ties well to the wrap-up questions (primarily the many things to look out for from Daniel and New Mill in the future).
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Vodcast 3 - Summer Solo-stice: ROVE (a great solo game) and all Solitary Things
A hair shorter than the last couple of “Vodcasts,” and that was a part of this episode’s solo challenge. With that mild dose of brevity, there are some interesting thoughts here, and they’re a bit punchier. In this episode, I break down the awesome solo game, ROVE: Results-Oriented Versatile Explorer. Additionally, and hopefully in a not “preachy” way, I just talk about some of the ways in which I’ve enjoyed doing all sorts of different things “solo,” how I have held myself back from doing others, and what sort of things might stand in one’s way when trying to jump into something new. The whole message is just meant to be a positive one, hopefully encouraging both you and me to keep pushing towards doing the things we truly want to do.
Happy June Solstice and Happy Seasons to everyone, wherever and whenever you’re listening to this episode.
There's another giveaway! Fill out the General Feedback Form in the contact information below if you're interested in the first official VOLPG, or "Vod Offloading Lightly Played Games." Listen to the episode to find out which GAMES(!) are being given away to a lucky winner. The one thing I forgot to mention in the episode is that this would be US only due to shipping. That said, if you're elsewhere in the world, please fill out this survey anyway, and I'll see if I can enter you in a future drawing or send something fun your way, somehow.
Fill out this feedback form to enter!
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Insanely talented artist and creator, Tyler Miles Lockett joins the show to talk about some upcoming projects. Tyler is creating the art for Renier Knizia’s Ichor, Lockett Studio (a really exciting project that we chat about for a bit!), and his HUGE upcoming book, Lockett Studio: Greek Gods and Heroes. Through a long time of traveling and creating, Tyler is looking to bring forth stories from throughout history and the world.
Check out Tyler’s work through this Linktree.
Additionally, be on the lookout for Bitewing game’s upcoming Kickstarter that has Ichor as one of two Knizia games specifically designed for two and put in a Greek Mythology setting.
In the interview, Tyler asks for some “casual game” recommendations. At the end, I said I’d send them over and put them in the show notes. So you’ll be privy to all of the words that I shared (some behind the scenes stuff here so as to not be left out. Due to that, I’ll just title the sections and timestamp them instead of going into depth for each.
Convergence of Art and Mythology (0:00)
Digital Nomad (26:34)
Lockett Studio (41:56)
Wrap-up Questions [Text on Mind & Things to Look out for from Tyler] (1:02:14)
GAME RECOMMENDATIONS
Santorini (2) - You mentioned Chess, and this one is an “abstract” like that, but much simpler. It’s really dynamic and has fun physicality. It’s typically quite quick; it’s my most played game of all time (has the slightest “Greek Mythology” setting to it with the special powers, but I hardly use those anyway).
Prey Another Day (4-5) - This one feels as social of a card game as it gets. It’s kind of like “double think” the game. Your group will make up metas and counter-metas and just be vocal through the whole experience.
Ra (2-5 [two seems polarizing though]) - On the higher end of the casual spectrum, but I don’t think it’s too challenging to learn and teach. Designed by Reiner Knizia himself, so the game does a lot with its minimal ruleset.
DroPolter (2-5) - New to my collection, but I think this one will always be with me in a game bag. It’s a dexterity game where you try to drop certain pieces from your hand. If you win a round, you gain a bell as a victory point. That bell gets added to your hand, and you do not want to drop it. This game is great.
Sprawlopolis (1-2) - I’ve only played this one solo, but it’s a puzzly game using just eighteen cards. For me, it’s one of several Buttonshy Games that I’ll bust out if I need a quick break to play a game but do not have much time.
Just One (4-7+ [the plus would need some extra white boards or paper could work too) and So Clover! (2-6) - I’ve had Just One longer but have technically played So Clover! more. You can’t really go wrong with either, but I do think that Just One needs more people in order to make it a better experience. They’re both just really social word-party games.
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Artist of a million different things (with many of those most recent projects being board games), Alisha Giroux joins the podcast to discuss art, board games, some neat stories about how some collaborations came to be, AI, and a whole bunch of other great insights.
Check out Alisha’s work in these links below:
Store
Portfolio
Linkpop for Instagram and other pages
BoardGameGeek
Art 101
Alisha’s background in graphic design and how that’s been a base for which the ever-present passion for art has grown.
Games and Collaboration and Redwall and Creative Advice (17:02)
The third “and” in Redwall ties to the other elements extremely heavily, and it’s a special story about how Alisha was able to work with legendary artist, Gary Chalk. Additionally, Alisha shares how some of the cats in Cat Blues: The Big Gig were created. This is a really special and inspiring portion that makes you think about all of the stories that show the love, circumstances, and unique ways in which things happen are behind the art that we consume.
AI AIn’t It (1:01:42)
A little over a year ago, Alisha gave a presentation titled “The Creative Fingerprint” at CreativeMornings Ottawa. This talk goes over what’s being done with AI in art, and this section of the episode goes over what’s changed since then.
Projects (1:12:45)
A look into some of the aforementioned different mediums where Alisha is creating.
Wrap-up Questions (1:17:06)
A “current hyper-fixation” and what to look out for from Alisha.
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A just me episode where I (start to) discuss "balance" in board games, other mediums, and life in general. A lot of the purpose of the episode is to introduce future topics while bringing up some of the things I've been up to that made me think about those topics. There wound up being some interesting connections in here too, and I'm looking forward to many future guests/topics mentioned here. The episode then thinks about ways in which board games use expansions/new versions/etc. to follow up an initial entry. And then there's a brief ramble about Hades II.
There's another giveaway! Fill out the General Feedback Form in the contact information below if you're interested in the first official VOLPG, or "Vod Offloading Lightly Played Games."
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The end of a trilogy. Brett J. Gilbert joins me to cap off a wonderful set of episodes. As one of founders of the Cambridge design group that both Trevor Benjamin and David Thompson from the last two episodes are a part of, it was such a great time going back to the beginning. The oddly constructed chronology of this episode kind of does the same, so join the end of this current “Collabstraction” journey.
Brett's board game website.
Beginning of the End (0:00)
A little bit of introductory talk. A little bit of trilogy talk.
Cambridge. Collaboration. Curator. (14:55)
Brett discusses how the group came to be and how it’s changed throughout the years. There’s some other collaboration talk and one question that showed up in the other two episodes.
Restrictions and Distillations (49:43)
The ethos of Brett’s designs was clear from the beginning of the episode, but we discuss it a little bit further here with the specifically small project, “Good Little Games,” and in other capacities as well.
Beginning at the End (1:03:36)
For some reason I forwent asking about Brett’s gaming background early in the episode, but it worked out well here. There’s some additional talk about abstraction and complexity in this section.
Wrap-up Questions (1:20:59)
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In the rare sequel that’s just as good as its predecessor, David Thompson joins the show for “Collabstraction 2: The Collabstractioning.” We talk about some similar ideas in the topics of collaboration and abstraction, but we also discuss the ideas of sequels/iterations/expansions. It was really interesting getting to hear the slight differences in the overall approach to design and the fact that David has designed in the solo and historical spaces a little more, and, obviously, it was just a blast.
Collab-introduction
From growing up in “board game adjacent” spaces of RPGs and skirmish games to how David’s background in different types of systems led to early designs to David’s response to a couple of the questions that the “Grim Reaper” received in the previous episode, there are many stories and laughs in this part.
“His Favorite Color is Chrome” (1:01:53)
Hearing David talk about chrome and “chrome budget” (I love that phrase/had never heard it before) brought about the title of that ridiculous 2001 Trace Adkins song. I was going to link it, but I couldn’t bring myself to do it. So if you seek it out, that’s on you. Anyway, David discusses why certain choices are made for certain games and talks about the Valiant Defense series of games, which are wonderfully interesting solo war games.
Following-up (1:13:30)
As this is a part two, I have some questions and thoughts that almost come out as questions about some of the aforementioned sequels/iterations/expansions. Naturally, David answers them wonderfully.
Wrapping-up (1:24:43)
A text on David’s mind and the many things to look out for from him soon!
David on BoardGameGeek & Twitter
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A wonderful collaborative discussion here with a designer that only designs in collaborations, Trevor Benjamin. Designer of one of my favorite games of all time in Mandala, everything that has Trevor in the design credits is guaranteed to be a fantastic game. Speaking of fantastic, I think this episode is quite fantastic too, so thank you for tuning in.
Trevor on BGG and Twitter.
Introductory Questions [Time stamps coming! - weird technical hang-up - should be set by 4/9]
What got Trevor into board games and how that has inspired his designs The conversation goes on about Go and other abstract games, cooperative games, and intuitive/simple designs (I’m not sure if those words capture that part the best, so check it out to hear how this brief description almost matches that discussion).
Cambridge - “Family” (56:30)
What really sticks out in this section is how close Trevor is to his co-designers. Through discussing how these partnerships came to be and have turned into lifelong friendships, it makes sense why the games created between Trevor and Brett/David/Roger/Matthew click so well.
Collab-specific Questions (1:16:00)
What title best fits Trevor in his design partnerships.
A question brought to you by “Indeed” (not sponsored)
Wrap-up Questions (1:32:38)
Trevor discusses a masterpiece of modern television and games to look out for from him this year.
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The first ever "Vodcast." So while a warning that this one is just me is potentially apt, it's a huge step up from the "Yearly Reflection" episode. Part of the reason this exists is due to the fact that now is my turbo-busy season. Another reason it exists is because there are some good thoughts in here that I want to keep continuing in this Vodcast format, whether that's due to being too backed up to have scheduled interviews or not, and elsewhere. The show discusses this in more detail. Future episodes will have less administrative stuff too, but there is a lot of gratitude being expressed in the early part of this episode, so thank you for being a part of my board gaming journey.
Apocalands/Duel Intro (22:12)
Radlands Intro (30:42)
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In this super sweet episode, Ruel and I have a fantastic talk about all of the things he’s currently working on, some of his life’s stories, and connections between books and board games. To put most of everything in one spot (and that EVERYTHING is a lot), this is Ruel’s Linktree. The Linktree isn’t enough, as he is also on Rahdo and Good Time Society (and other channels too!).
Intro (0:00)
Out of all of the things I enjoy with this podcast in general, my favorite is easily listening to peoples’ stories. Ruel’s reflections on family, how he came to love reading, different types of work he’s done in the past, and his overall passions culminating into his current work just created a super beautiful discussion.
Books, books, books… (26:15)
The conversation starts off by talking about what sort of message games that present themselves as books promise, some games that are based on books, games that use the idea of books, and several other things that fit somewhere around those topics.
*Thinking about words, sometimes (often) mine fail me. When I was talking about Ruel’s “Words on Wednesday” episodes and the graphic novel Saga, I was trying to say that I haven’t been into graphic novels much but am trying to do so more now. That latter part just never materialized. So that’s just another cool thing that Ruel is doing with his channel.
Wrap-up Questions (52:45)
I now have a fountain pen because of this portion.
Check out GOOD MORNING SOCIETY.
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Luis Aguasvivas, writer for PopMatters, his own site, and numerous other video game journals, joins me for an episode primarily about the video game Tetris. The episode is a journey from very poignant and personal reflections on the way the game has impacted Luis to funny moments about speed-running board games to the history of Tetris to many other shapes and places that you’ll have to discover on the way. In addition to linking his written work above, Luis also contributes to the Homo Ludens channel, and here’s just one of the videos featuring him.
Intro & THE GAME: Tetris (0:00)
In the “chapters” era of ICE, this is the longest chapter yet. We discuss what makes the game so special, early memories of it and other formative games, why it’s better than Vampire Survivors (my apologies...), the Tetris Effect & Tetris Effect: Connected, and a whole bunch of other things.
The Movie and/or why the pieces don’t stack up quite right: Tetris (1:06:54)
A pretty self-explanatory chapter title, but Luis shares some other ways in which the extremely crazy history of Tetris has been captured well in different mediums.
Board games inspired by Tetris, which was inspired by a puzzle game itself (1:17:50)
It’s hard to capture the entire feel of Tetris in a board game, but we have a good talk about some good, puzzly games with tetromino pieces nonetheless.
Tetris in Real Life (1:30:40)
From making sandwiches to the aforementioned speed-running board games, there are a lot of ways in which we process patterns and can look to Tetris for guidance.
Wrap-up Questions (1:49:19)
A text on Luis’s mind and projects he’s working on. Fans of Kingdom Hearts should tune into this.
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Join this fantastic episode, as Brigette leads me (and subsequently all of you) on a board game journey through several unique lenses. Check out all of her amazing work here and the rest of this episode for her insight.
Intro (0:00)
Brigette’s professional graphic design experience linked up with her board gaming in a way that led to her designing games and doing graphic design work for board games. We talk about games earlier in our gaming experience that stuck out to us from a graphic design standpoint as well.
This episode’s namesake/Brigette’s task/”Thick Plots and Sick Fonts” (12:50)
I get educated on something I find fascinating (fonts) but hadn’t really thought about much outside of lettering that looks neat and matches a game’s. Brigette creates an amazing logo for this episode immediately after our conversation that would’ve taken me days to do (and I’d still fail at). It’s linked here (and should be the episode’s image too, which I’ve never tried before!).
Here’s the video conference that’s mentioned in the discussion as well.
Recognition, aesthetic, and other design thoughts (24:45)
A lot of different ideas in this section. Brigette shares ways in which we can recognize more contributors to a game’s design, her design goals, how most people would never think about kerning (exactly), and several other topics nestled in between there.
Stories on a storytelling game & wrap-up section (54:14)
Brigette discusses the story behind her game, The Plot Thickens (which is really neat and you should check out- you can check out the Dice Tower playthrough mentioned in our chat as well). Brigette talks about future design goals and projects in the near future to look out for from her. She shares a text that’s been stuck on her mind and details her response to the lettering assignment (which she then said she'd do [and did]- I had to share this earlier in the notes because it’s so cool!).
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This episode’s notes start at the end. Eric partnered up with his friend Ben from https://travel-games.co.uk/ to put together these really awesome Tokyo Game Market Bundles. So while this is a kind of plug, it’s really not (but you should look at them, and they’re looking to replenish ones that sell out too [I think the whole initial lot sold out immediately and has already been restocked since, but I could be wrong]). The story behind the creation of these boxes, the communication with the designers, the translations for untranslated rulebooks, and everything in between is the culmination of our discussion about the focus of The Board Game Dojo and community in general. That’s the end, and everything before that is equally delightful. Enjoy!
Intro (0:00)
We talk about Eric’s life adventures and how they coincided with his time in the board game hobby.
Crossovers (22:20)
With my star guest spot on The Board Game Dojo, this is Intertextual Cardboard Experience’s first “crossover” episode, so we talk about some different crossovers in different mediums. Eric wins this category.
Community (53:33)
With my previous reflections on The Board Game Dojo’s end of year cleanse episode, I was thinking a lot about what different board game communities mean to me, especially due to the interesting, community-focused nature of the episode that Eric set up. Here, we’re able to have a more in-depth discussion based on that.
Innovation x3 (1:12:18)
The board game, innovation that he’s looking to cover, and what innovative things The Board Game Dojo is trying to do. The asynchronous game that Eric mentions was won by me. If we call “Community” a draw, Eric will still win this episode overall due to all of the unique things they’ve been working on, despite his humbleness saying otherwise. The wrap up question is in this section as well.Board Game Dojo Podcast
The Board Game Dojo YouTube
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Steven recently released Fliptown, which has got me absolutely hooked. That's no surprise, as many of his other co-designs are ones that I have binged/still am binging. Check out Steven's work and Twitter.
Exposition
Steven's intro into games and game design.A new segment has emerged: "Vod Poorly Explaining Your Game" or VPEYG (the "y" is silent)The link to the episode's "-opolis" inspired scoring cards: "ICEopolis""Howdy, Partner" (10:13)
Minimalism, collaboration, and some awesome stories about how some of your favorite games were created.Some "hidden gem" Buttonshy titles at the end.Dusting off the Boots (31:13)
Revisiting designs and constantly thinking about ways in which older ideas can be integrated into different games in different ways - the evolution of some of Steven's thoughts.Some "hidden gems" from Steven's games at the end as well.The Showdown (42:34)
Westerns and FliptownIf you're listening to this one again (I mean, it's a good episode, so I don't blame you), there was a chapter break issue in the first published version- gasp. All fixed now!Resolution
Wrap-up questions in text stuck on Steven's mind and things to look out for from him (spoiler: it's a lot).*I tried making a spur sound effect here, and I think it's pretty good. Unless you thought it was supposed to be a mining sound effect (or something else...), then it's definitely that.
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Jon Perry, designer of some of my favorite games, comes to talk about all his creative endeavors in this excellent episode. Check out Spots, Air, Land & Sea, Time Barons, Scape Goat, and all future output (some mentioned in this episode!). Jon's website is a great place to look at these games and his work in other mediums. I cannot overstate how excited I am for the video game UFO 50, and we talk about that too.
There's a quick show intro before the start of the interview. Here's the Board Game Dojo episode I mention.
Intro (3:05)
Jon talks about his early passion for games and how that's weaved into his other creative work.I COMPLETELY misspoke/changed the route of what I wanted that one question to be, so that was on me (lol).Pods and Other Prods (19:31)
Graphic novels, podcasts about that work (and adjacent to it), and Jon's musical work as well.Lane Battler Update and "Twistillations" (34:28)
Brief chat about Marvel Snap (which I quit even sooner than I said I would on this episode- two weeks free and counting).Talking about Jon's designs and how the distill a mechanism while adding an engaging hook (or twist).UFO 50 (48:15)
Pretty self-explanatoryWrap-up Questions (1:04:45)
The usual question here: a text that's been stuck on Jon's mind. There's a repeat here for the first time, and then there is some subsequent discussion about some interesting texts and how they might translate to games.Two episodes now have sound effects not created by me. I felt the "retro sci-fi gun" sound used as the transition was fitting. The really generous/neat CCO/common domain full set of sound effects can be found here.
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Dan Thurot of Space-Biff! joins me for a very special episode ten. Join us and the episode formerly known as "TBDBD" for questions, (non)answers, thoughtfulness, fun, and everything in-between.
"These Are My Impressions" (9:27) < chapter title inspired by Usher's "Confessions Part II"
Dan receives his assignment for the podcast while we reflect on ways in which games can leave their initial impressions.Choices, choices, choices (30:22)
Several metrics for choosing which games to play slug it out to see who reigns supreme.The "Test of Time" and/or (False Metrics) (46:51) < chapter title inspired by BİRDMAN or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance)
Dan's words dive into how games' ability to last the test of time might not be as important as we think it is (or perhaps how our thoughts there don't match our actions).Wrap-up Question - Texts Stuck on the Mind (1:02:03)
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Possible Acronym Interpretations:
Very In(dividual)(tertextual) Cardboard Experience Special
Veritably (sorry that) It’s (a non-)Conversation (but just me) Existentially Spiraling <<< typed this before recording either version of this episode, and it wound up being way too self-fulfilling
Vanilla Ice Cream Eating Spectacular
DISCLAIMER: If you are new to the podcast, this isn't the place to start. There are eight awesome conversations before this one and plenty more coming afterwards. Even if you aren't new to the podcast, this rambling mess is probably a bit off from what you're used to. The main goal was to contextualize some of my tastes and give a "behind the scenes" look at some of the things going on with the show. There was still a lot of thought put into it (and as mentioned in the episode itself, there is some built in foreshadowing), and I'm also using this as a springboard for a different iteration of this type of recap next year. Perhaps somebody will interview me. Perhaps it will be a "double interview" of sorts. Who knows? Whether it was with this episode, every single episode, all episodes besides this one, or just any episode in general, I really appreciate your time with this show.
PODSTATS & Thoughts (5:57)
"Vod's Awards" - Introduction of New to Me Two-Zero-Two-Three (12:14)
"Bro, do you even read?" (13:42)
"And you're too lazy to watch movies???" (17:05)
TV (19:41)
Music (24:01)
Metroidvanias & Roguelites (26:16)
My Biggest Time Sink (31:11)
Podcast mentioned with Dan Thurot and Jon PerryBoard Game Stats & [First Ever] Awards (34:27)
My 2023 Logged Plays SpreadsheetJohn's designer diary that I mentioned.How you're going to get new Omen and be happy.Wrap-up Thoughts, Requests, and Giveaway Information (51:17)
[THIS EPISODE'S GIVEAWAY IS CLOSED - feel free to fill out the feedback form though.Contact me at [email protected] or my Instagram with the same name. There's also now an Intertextual Cardboard Experience Twitter account. -
An extremely ranging and fun conversation about all of the research and design ethos that go into Eric's games. The first couple timestamps cover Eric, what got him into gaming, his general research process, and thoughts behind designing. After that, the linked times are about specific research-related questions for specific games. As to not spoil those questions (and due to the fact that those sections are a little shorter), the times will just be linked!
A Good & Plentiful Introduction (0:00)
Getting to know EricCreating Lasting Social Experiences (20:30)
In the intro, Eric offers a lot of great thoughts behind what makes his games meaningful to the people that play them, so this is just a follow-up with a couple more things that he integrates into the design process.Research Intro & MonsDRAWsity (30:05)
Talking about everything Eric looks into when thinking about and creating his games.Tattoo Stories (51:48)
Wacronyms (58:16)
Pun of Your Business (1:03:17)
Nerd Words: Science! (1:07.11)
Chucky [and co-design] (1:12:07)
Wrap-up Questions (1:23:16)
Texts stuck on Eric's mind and what to look out for from him.
Check out Eric's site, Twitter, and Instagram
Finally, for the past few episodes, I've tried to make my own sound effects and such for transitions. With the games and wide range of content being discussed, that was so tough for me to pin down what it was here. Ultimately, I settled for a tattoo drill and retro monster combination, but neither were my creations. Both are CCO/common domain and don't "need" to be credited, but I will of course.
Monster sounds (and a cool retro pack in general: (http://www.themotionmonkey.co.uk/free-resources/retro-arcade-sounds/)
Tattoo drill: https://pixabay.com/sound-effects/tattoo-34946/
Contact me at [email protected] or my Instagram with the same name. There's also now an Intertextual Cardboard Experience Twitter account.
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