Afleveringen
-
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. I'm your host, Jack Gaines.
Today, Colonel Andreas Eckel, commander of the NATO CIMIC Center of Excellence, joins us to discuss the center's work to prepare the alliance for future crises or disasters. So, let's get started.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to Jan Křtitel Novák, Jimmy McHugh, and Dorothy Fields for the original version of Diga Diga Do, which aired in 1928 and was then performed by Duke Ellington. Ellington's version can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3aJ_9IAIjQ&t=1s
---
Transcript
00:00:05 JACK GAINESWelcome to the One CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. Today, Colonel Andreas Echel, commander of the NATO Civic Center of Excellence, joins us to discuss the center's work to prepare the alliance for future crisis and disasters. So let's get started.
00:00:19 ANDREAS ECKELWhat we need to understand a little bit better, and I think that was a very brutal lesson we identified in Afghanistan and in Mali as well, is that military functions in different societies. very, very differently. We have an idea how military looks like and how it works. It might work more the Italian style or the German style or the US style. But basically, I think we have a common set of ideas how military works. And military works completely different in Mali than in Afghanistan than in Germany. And that is based on different societies. So how do we figure that out? It's a very good question. If I had a quick and sharp answer to that one, I think I would be the winner of the $1 million question. There are some ingredients to tackle that problem. And one of the ingredients is to understand the environment a little bit better. And that leads to civil military cooperation. The one centerpiece of civil military cooperation is to understand the environment better. to nest military activities in the civil environment in a better way. It creates more converging effects and creates less harm to the civil population. And I think the next thing is you need to have long -lasting relationships. Relationship that is built up, that's great. If it lasts one year, that's great. And if you just end it then, Basically, you have achieved almost nothing. So long -lasting relationships and to understand the civil environment better. And we have to understand that we are not the ivory tower of knowledge. What do we know? What does the military know about Mali and Afghanistan? Basically nothing. We have to be more and better in contact with the civil organizations, with academia, with knowledge centers. that are engaged in those areas since 20, 30, 40, 50 years. And we have to be in a dialogue with them and have to extract their knowledge about the key civil factors and have to integrate that better in military considerations.
00:02:32 JACK GAINESSo you have to be a diplomat in two directions because you've got to be reaching out to the partner nation like Mali, working with her counterparts there. You have to be a diplomat with partner agencies within the government and academia, as you were saying, or else you're going to miss a step. So you really have to work your way across the spectrum.
00:02:52 ANDREAS ECKELYeah, I like your picture of being a diplomat because exactly as you mentioned, it's a diplomat in both ways, but you have to be a translator as well. So civil environment, civil actors, civil counterparts speak a different language than we. And we really have to make sure that what they say. is understood by the military and what the military means properly translated in how the civilians understand it.
00:03:17 JACK GAINESYou know, and that's a good point because I've seen civil affairs civic officers come in and try to brief leadership on certain issues. And if it wasn't absolutely clear and in the language that that matter knew, they usually were dismissed and it wasn't as effective an operation because of it.
00:03:34 ANDREAS ECKELAnd by the way, at the beginning of my career in the military function of CIMIC, it happened to me too. So one of my first appearance of the stage briefing the commander about some civil factors was a complete disaster because I underestimated how many minutes I only have to bring over some key messages to the commander. So I talked too long and did not come to the point. And I think that's the point where the CCOE is really in a responsibility. We have to provide in our courses the overview, the background, and we provide expertise and challenge them with tasks to apply the expertise. But at the very end of every course, we tell them, hey, CIMIC is important, and it is important to understand the environment, and it is important to integrate civil factors and military considerations. However, when you are confronted with decision makers, Your product needs to be crisp and sharp. If you provide a product to your commander, which exceeds three pages, then you can throw it in the dustbin. By the way, one page is better than three pages. And I think simakers have the tendency, and I include myself specifically into that one, to speak too long and to explain too long and not to come to the point. And if at the end of your statement there is no so what and what's next, well, then don't say anything. That's better.
00:05:08 JACK GAINESWell, for this podcast, I appreciate you speaking too much. That's a good thing. But I also understand it's a challenge, but once you get used to it, I think it's super, super helpful.
00:05:19 ANDREAS ECKELhelpful. What we both concluded coming to the point should not be mixed up with not doing your analysis. Only because you have two minutes to brief your commander about a major actor that will impact his operation. doesn't mean that your analysis should only be two minutes. So you have to provide the analysis for an in -depth briefing, if required, to integrate that knowledge and your assessment in the staff work of the other branches. So it needs to be both a very in -depth, precise analysis and assessment. And then it is your time on the stage. The light will shine on you for two minutes. That's it.
00:05:59 JACK GAINESThat brings up a story on my side. sent one of my pitch decks to a former boss. And he took it, he read it, and then he read all of the sources that I had put in the back. And so he knew the subject just as well as I did when we met. And I was like, holy cow. Yes, it's important to do good research before you put together your summary because you never know how deep somebody's going to dive into an issue. And if you've done bad research and they catch it, you're done. So one of the things that... Being that diplomat, both to the military and to other government bodies. One thing that I found at the Strategic Foresight Conference, and it was in your report as well, is that SIMIC needs clarification of capabilities in peace and crisis. And what feedback I got from meetings was that not all militaries have a strong relationship with their public. That's a big concern because if a military doesn't have the trust. When you get to a crisis or a disaster, you've got to really overcome a lot in order just to provide aid and support.
00:07:07 ANDREAS ECKELYeah, that's a crucial point. I have two takes on that. The first one is we have nations that do allow, on the very lowest tactical level, the interaction between military and the civil world. But it is a question of being honest to ourselves. That is not applicable in all countries. Our countries in the alliance are very restrictive interaction with civil environment, with civil authorities, at least on the lower tactical level. And that brings me to my second point. It's a national responsibility. So when we talk about CIMIC as a military function, then we have to look at it from two sides. One is NATO CIMIC is embedded in a NATO command structure, NATO force structure. However, NATO is operating. on the soil of sovereign nations. So we promote and stimulate that nations build up, maintain, and integrate a kind of simic capability. We call that domestic simic. We made a proposal for what domestic simic is. However, nations are completely free to fill that skeleton with their structures. They can call it a domestic simic. They can call it territorial forces. They can call it Homeland Defense Forces. It doesn't matter how they fill in that skeleton as long as they do provide civil factor integration, as long as they execute civil -military interaction. And for the Alliance as a whole to plan and prepare and conduct successful operations, we need to plug in to the national simic domains and the domestic simic domains. And we have to do that. via the national military structures. So what we do in deterrence and defense -related scenarios is a little bit differing from what we have done in international crisis management in the past. When CIMIC teams from the alliance or whatever security force was implemented in that, we very often did the civil -military interaction with civil partners on the ground by ourselves without using any layer in between us. But when we do that now as NATO in Germany and Poland, Lithuania, Romania, and we have to plug into their military structures and via them with the civil actors on the ground. And nations consider that very differently. So there are nations that say, hey, great that you're in. Please feel free to speak to our civil organizations by yourself. It would be nice if you inform us afterwards. Everything's great. The nations are more restrictive and say, hey, guys. a ministry, whenever you talk to an organization, whenever you talk to civil partners, please do that via us and ask us first. So there is a variety of how nations would like to have that executed, and we as Symmakers have to adapt.
00:10:08 JACK GAINESRight. What I've seen is that disaster relief and crisis coordination between the military and the civil governments is fairly good, but I'm not seeing the emotional side as much. What I mean is, We just had the Marine Corps Marathon. And people all crossed D .C. and around the country came. They ran their 24 miles. These kind of military events where people go, they see some type of form of patriotism, honor guards at sporting events or marathons or the military band performing on the park plots. Those things make a difference. And I don't know if that was also included in your... Have you seen anything like that?
00:10:55 ANDREAS ECKELIn the last years, when we talked about the use of military assets in our nations, it was to overcome disasters. It was to provide military assistance to civil organizations to overcome flooding, fires, or whatever. But the situation has changed a little bit. And now it is not so much about military assistance in case of man -made big disasters. It's more about civil defense. It's more about stimulating the civil support to military operations and the mutual support in case of crisis and war. And I think that notion is quite new to many European countries. In Germany, it was... support of the military to the civil authorities in case of disasters. But when you look into Sweden, Norway, and Finland, they have since decades a kind of total defense strategy. They have a DNA about that the whole of the nation needs to be ready to defend the nation. And that starts already when you go into your cellar. Is there water? Is there food? Are there batteries? And when you do that in Finland, Sweden, Norway, the answer is yes, there is food and there is water. And I was quite astonished. A couple of years ago, I had a NATO course in Helsinki. At that time, when Helsinki was still a NATO partner and not a NATO nation. And it was an exported course from NATO School of Ammergau. And during the weekend, we had the opportunity to visit Helsinki. And we... came across a protection infrastructure was located to protect the civilians. And the lady asked us, do you have an idea for how many citizens of Helsinki we have shelter? And I said, well, 50%. And she was smiling and she was collecting all the numbers. And then she came up and said, for every citizen in Helsinki, there is shelter. And that's the difference. A regularly trained system of civil defense. And military defense working hand in hand. I think that makes a difference. And I see that coming up in Europe. And again, I would like to use the example of Germany. Since the last couple of years, a lot of more effort has been put into the training and the exchange of information and the exercising of those structures. And I think we are getting there. The point is... When you have dismantled those structures, those strategies since 1990, because our enemy was disappearing, never disappeared. He was just dormant and has been woken up a couple of years ago. But to reinstall that, reactivate that, revitalize that, that takes years and years. So we are at the beginning. I'm a very optimistic person. I strongly hope that we are getting to a point quick enough that when The Russian beer is looking again to Europe when he has solved his problem in Ukraine, that we are ready at that point. And there are substantial measurements that we need to be ready latest in four to five years. And CIMIC plays a role in that because your armed forces can be as good as possible when the civil environment is vulnerable and stays vulnerable and is not able to absorb shocks and to compensate the shocks at a better level after the shock. then you will lose the conflict. That's crystal clear. Even in that time in 2023, where it seemed, at least for some time, that the Ukrainians have regained the initiative, the Russians did attack the civil infrastructure, the energy infrastructure, the transport infrastructure, the health infrastructure. And they were still winning at that battlefield, although they had massive casualties on the fighting battlefield. And I think where Ukraine will run into massive problems this year is that the Russians may not have the big tactical victory. They may not have the breakthrough through the Ukrainian defense lines. But what they will do is they will seriously damage the Ukrainian energy infrastructure, health infrastructure, transport infrastructure. Third year in a row. And I'm not sure if the Ukrainians will be really able to compensate that this time.
00:15:40 JACK GAINESIt's a real challenge. The thing that I see with Ukraine is that there's also a recruiting issue. They're struggling to keep up with manpower. And there's some international volunteers coming in, but probably not enough compared to what the Russians are bringing in. So it's a challenge of numbers in a lot of ways. They do build that trust and that familiarity with the military. So having the military band come out and play on the Konigstrasse makes a difference. Or like they did in Poland, having American and Polish troops go with a vehicle and park in the middle of a Platz and take photos with kids, it makes a difference.
00:16:24 ANDREAS ECKELYou're right. Your argument is good. And it connects pretty well with the... decisions we have to make in Europe right now. And that decision is that we have to nest the military better into the societies. But what needs to be installed, reactivated, and built up is a whole of society approach for resilience and civil defense.
00:16:52 JACK GAINESOkay. The biggest challenge right now is sabotage, which has been happening. in and around Europe, the Chinese ship that cut the communication lines, the water poisoning in Germany. So there seems to be already challenges in security.
00:17:09 ANDREAS ECKELSIMIC plays, first of all, a vital role in understanding the impact of such events, as we do not only look at the impact on military infrastructure and military organizations and units, but it's our task to look how those events impact the civil actors in the civil environment. And that will have definitely a result on the capability of a civil environment to provide support to military activities. So it's a kind of circle. And we are pushing that constantly to have a permanent assessment cycle on what we do, what happens to us, how does that impact the civil environment and the impacted civil environment? How is that still able? to provide the support to the military. And I think as we are in that position to have those connections to the other organizations and to provide a holistic assessment about the civil environment, that plays a vital role in that one. Absolutely.
00:18:11 JACK GAINESSo do you see that as the future of CIMIC from now going forward is to build that more holistic partner nation?
00:18:17 ANDREAS ECKELI would like to use the... definition of multi -domain operations as it is currently used in NATO, and that is the orchestration of all military activities to achieve converging effects. And I see the future role of CIMIC very much in that synchronization effort. So military capabilities are much, much less available than in the past. So when we think about what we need about capacities and resources to achieve our military strategic objectives, when we go into the details, 60, 70, partly 80 % of what we need as resource is not generated within the military. It needs to be contracted and provided by a civil environment. And that means that there needs to be a constant assessment process about the availability of those 60, 70, 80 % civil support. And it needs to be thoroughly assessed because that has a pushing out effect on the civil environment. When we use the trains for military equipment, then those trains cannot be used to support and supply the civil environment. So I think the future of CIMEC is in that synchronization bit with the non -military activities to reach those converging effects. And that pretty much fits into the whole of government, whole of society approach of defense.
00:19:49 JACK GAINESInteresting. So CIMIC is in multi -domain operations, has its own multi -domain operation because it's coordinating the civil, government, NGOs, whoever is not formal military. in cooperation or in conjunction with the military's multi -domain operations. So you've got a multi -tiered coordination process.
00:20:12 ANDREAS ECKELprocess. I think we do not run our own multi -domain operations. A multi -tiered task, I think that that captures it quite well. But I personally prefer to speak more about cooperation because coordination is a very tricky expression, especially in Europe. as coordination requires someone who allows to be coordinated and someone who has a coordinating authority. And in the interaction with our civil partners, it's more cooperation, ranging from we do exist beside each other to full integrated planning and operations. There's a continuum of that area of cooperation. So I do really prefer to speak more about cooperation than coordination.
00:21:04 JACK GAINESIs there any other topics or thoughts that you want to add to the conversation?
00:21:11 ANDREAS ECKELFor me, it's really important to highlight the future concepts like multi -domain operations and to establish and maintain the connection with the current concepts. So it is important to keep the future world of NATO connected to the current operational world of NATO. That is exactly why we run the annual Simic Foresight Conference, is to connect the here and now with the time period of one to two years to the future concepts, 10, 20 years. And secondly, the closer connection and the better synchronization of the national efforts with the alliance efforts. That is really, I think, a key centerpiece of our future success. So in my understanding, it is ongoing. It is happening in the alliance as we speak right now. So alliance, joint headquarters, strategic headquarters have established contacts to national military authorities and do exchange information. But I think that needs to become more intensive, more regularly and more information flow to both sides. And that needs to be not only... foreseen conceptually and structurally, it needs to be trained and exerciseda reagularly. And I think that's really a clear measurement of success if we are able to exercise it in the future massively. And thirdly, I think the aspect of human security and protection of civilians, that is something which creates a dilemma for every military leader because he would like to achieve his military objectives. That is either to defeat the enemy or to force him to do something or to force him to stay away from something, which means the application of massive violence to the enemy. However, when we learn something from the recent international crisis or from the war in Ukraine, then what we have learned is the battlefield is full of civilians that have requirements, that have needs. The battlefield is full of organizations, non -governmental governmental organizations that try to provide a certain amount of services to the civilians. And it doesn't matter if it is a war zone or the rear area or the area behind the rear area. We have to realize that it is and will remain full of civilians. To evacuate a city like Kiev is nonsense. That will never happen. 23 million people. Yeah, good luck with that one. And even if you try, the majority of the capabilities will be provided by the civilian world. So human security, protection of civilians are concepts which are mandatory for NATO. NATO has adhered to it. We have adopted it in our strategies, in our plans, into our operations. But what does that really mean? How do we really translate protection of civilian and human security? into operations on the operational and even on the tactical level. And I think that needs some assistance, how to operationalize it, how to conduct, how to do it. This assistance, in my understanding, is called mindset and SIMIC. Terrific. It's good to do SIMIC, but you have to talk about it. It's good to increase the awareness, but you have to publish it. So I am very grateful and very thankful to have the opportunity to talk with you. Thank you very much. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much and have a good day.
00:25:00 JACK GAINESworking with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U.S. relations. Thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, One CA Podcast.
-
In this episode Brian Hancock talks with Kurt Dykstra and Joshua Weikart to discuss the 38 Golf Program, the Functional Specialty Team Construct, and the recent Functional Specialty Team Symposium. Major Dykstra and Captain Weikert, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Wonderful to be here.---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in current or former military personnel, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with the people and leadership of a partner nation.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---Special thanks to Art Music for a sample from the song "January | Instrumental Background Music."Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E0orz_C33I
---
Transcript
00:00:03 INTRODUCTIONWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected] or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:39 BRIAN HANCOCKI'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I will be your host for this session. Today, we have with us Major Kurt Dykstra and Joshua Weikert and Joshua Weikert and Captain Joshua Weikert to discuss the 38 golf program and the recent Functional Specialty Team Symposium. Major Dykstra and Captain Weikert, welcome to the show. Thanks very much. Wonderful to be here. Thank you, sir.
00:01:26 BRIAN HANCOCKA quick disclaimer while we're here that the remarks of myself and the participants are solely ours. All right, gentlemen, let's jump into it. From the beginning, what attracted you to U.S. Army civil affairs? Well, I can start that answer. So I'm a bit older, as you might have gathered from my bio.
00:01:43 KURT DYKSTRAa bit older, as you might have gathered from my bio. And at various points in my adult life, I had thought about entering into military service. And for one reason or another, It just didn't happen. And it was always a great regret in my life that I had not served and saw it as something that I wish I would have done. And then about four or so years ago, I got a call from a friend of a friend who at the time was a major who was recruiting for this new golf program. And we really didn't know each other, but we sort of had moved in similar circles and knew the same people and those sorts of things. And my wife and I were hiking the Appalachian Trail and I was having breakfast one morning and got a phone call from Colonel Koinga, as he retells the story, I think within an hour or two, I said something like, sounds good to me, let's do it. Of course, I did talk with my wife and those sorts of things, but that's my pathway in and a bit unique perhaps, but I think a story that has some resonance with many of the other gulfs, particularly those who were not prior service, that this was fulfilling an opportunity that they had, that they had wished that they had taken earlier, which was to serve the country through the military.
00:02:51 BRIAN HANCOCKthe country through the military. Well, first of all, Kurt, you're not that old. You look very young and healthy to me. And so you're doing something right. So good for you. I'm thrilled that you have chosen to give both the Army and civil affairs a chance. We definitely need the type of skills that you bring to the table. Now, let me turn to you, Captain Weicker. Tell me a little bit about your journey getting here. Well, I was a prior service soldier.
00:03:16 JOSHUA WEIKERT prior service soldier. Also being the pre -law advisor at my university, I had a pre -law student who was interested in the Army JAG program. And she had asked me to look into direct commissioning programs in the Army in general, knowing that I was a veteran and had some experience in this area. And I stumbled across the 38 Gulf page on the Army Talent Management website. And it was such an immediately obvious fit because I teach politics, but I also do politics. I work for the House of Representatives. And for that matter, when I go out looking for faculty members to hire, I like looking for people who are practitioners as well as being scholars. And this really dovetailed very nicely into that model. And it struck me as something with a very clear need. It also struck me as something that, especially as we think about lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan and 20 years of deployments, that this was an area where the Army could really bone up its skills and get more into capacity building both within our formations and also the places where we operate. So it struck me as something that was both important and extremely interesting.
00:04:13 BRIAN HANCOCKWell, very glad that you're here. The background that you both have in politics and helping. do governance on an almost daily basis. It makes me wonder, how would we train something like transitional governance? This is one of our core capabilities. I don't know if the program does things like that. I think there's a big future for us in this area. And both of you have the background to help us move in that direction. Well, in the early 2000s,
00:04:44 JOSHUA WEIKERT the DOD had... conducted a review of all the civil administration and civil affairs tasks that were out there that the Army engages in. And they came up with a list of something like 1 ,400 different tasks. And they combed through this list and started identifying things that are not currently met. So where are the areas where the Army needs help? And out of that derived these 18 skill identifiers within the 38 Gulf program, covering a broad range of civil skills. And these include things like... finance, education, and border security, and law, regulation, and policy, and this cultural heritage and property protection. And the goal of the program is essentially to enhance a commander's ability to operate in a stable civil environment, to foresee and address any likely challenges that should crop up, so that commanders can focus on accomplishing their primary image.
00:05:33 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT Yeah, if I might jump in a little bit on that as well, either read the book or see the movie Monuments Men, then that gives you a little bit of a sense. In World War II, The U .S. were heading across Western Europe. They needed help to identify certain things, whether it's art, whether it's the significance of structures. And those are skills that the Army just didn't have. So the George Clooney's of the world, who at the time were art historians and museum curators, were brought into the Army's orbit to assist in those tasks. And that's kind of the history of the program that goes way back when, and then it was recently restarted in many ways and broadened as Captain Weigert. has been describing. So in some ways, I describe our role as consultants with specific civilian side expertise that the Army simply does not have to assist the Army to be able to do things that it otherwise might not be able to do. So we get called upon to assist in some of those areas that are more specialized than what the Army generally might have. And in other ways, like other civil affairs officers, you know, we're kind of the Army's diplomatic corps. So it's really those combinations, but the Gulf program specifically brings a very specific and in -depth civilian skill set to be used for Army purposes.
00:06:47 BRIAN HANCOCKset to be used for Army purposes. It sounds a little bit similar to some of the specialists we have with surgeons and lawyers, but also different at the same time. When we were deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, we definitely could have used these capabilities in all of these special functional areas. The Department of State tries their best to fill that gap, but the reality is that they're a relatively small organization that isn't necessarily equipped to go to non -permissive environments for extended periods of time. So for transitional governments, I think the heavy lift tends to fall on the military, and you really can't rebuild a government without trying to rebuild the economy and those other threads that tie into that tapestry. I'm very excited for the future with you guys on board. One of the initial challenges is that there wasn't necessarily a clear career progression through every rank for these soldiers. They couldn't follow the 38 Alpha career progression. Has that been relooked at? We do have a quasi -path through your military education.
00:07:57 JOSHUA WEIKERT a quasi -path through your military education. We do not yet have a basic officer leadership course, though we are currently piggybacking on Medical Services Bullock down here at Fort Sam. which is actually where they both are right now. But my understanding is that a 38 golf at CA Bullock course is in development, and I volunteered some of my time doing some of the course materials for that. And of course, we do have the civil affairs captain's course as well as an option. Beyond that, I'm not certain at all. But for Major Dykstra, if he has more information on that.
00:08:26 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT Much of this has been like jazz. There's been a certain underlying beat that's there, and there's a lot of improvisation that happens along the way. And Captain Weikert is exactly correct that we do DCC largely with the JAG DCC. And then we sort of peg on BOLIC, either AG or AMED, and AMED seems to be the preferred course right now. And to me, this is an area for improvement. We've gone through two school experiences without having any sort of direct training for what it is that we do. And that feels to me like an area that we can improve upon. And I think that is in process, as Captain Weikert mentioned with. With large organizations, particularly the U.S. Army, all that sort of thing takes time. Yeah, it does. But I do think that as the program matures, as there are more people within it for longer periods of time, a lot of the questions about career path and specifics along those lines, frankly, either be worked out by doctrine or they'll be worked out by the process of having people going through these programs and through the ranks and getting OERs and those kinds of things. So I'm not as concerned about that. A ladder piece is what I think that it would be beneficial for the golf program to have better formal education laid out sooner as we see with most other MOCs.
00:09:37 BRIAN HANCOCKother MOCs. It makes sense to me. It is clever, though, to piggyback on a professional MOS. Many reservists have a similar challenge who aren't 38 golfs because a lot of the professional military education that we funnel through. is geared towards combat arms. And of course, for reserve soldiers, what we do is largely support. But in terms of professional military education, understanding some of these other professions like medicine and pieces of logistics and information operations, professional military education historically has not been geared to advance the tradecraft of those individuals. So I think there's a larger movement within the Army at large, though, to create more specialized training. Unlike the Marine Corps, where they have fewer MOSs and folks have to be a little bit more of a generalist, the fact that we have so many specialty MOSs in the Army, I think, lends itself to the ability to stand up individual branches that can run its own training. And within the functional specialties of the 38 golf program, you might even need an entire course dedicated. to each of those functional areas because they're really quite different. 38 golfs are contained within the functional specialty team construct, like the building where they live within a civil affairs unit. Some folks tend to conflate the 38 golf program with the functional specialty team, not the same. But let's take it a step further. Since the functional specialty team which houses the 38 golf program is a military unit, It, of course, has non -commissioned officers in it as well as officers. Three of us happen to be officers, but non -commissioned officers are very important for us to get things done in the Army. What right now is the role of the non -commissioned officer within functional specialty teams? And gentlemen, where do you see that going? Go ahead, Captain Martin. I think that's exactly right.
00:11:40 JOSHUA WEIKERT right. And in addition, the just traditional roles that NCOs play in almost any unit in formation in terms of like training plan development and... upward input and things like that. I think the role of NCOs is all the more valuable and important in an FXFB section that includes a significant number of direct commission officers. You need that reinforcing experience even more in that set. And also, as we found out at the symposium in April, many of we had NCOs in attendance, and many of these NCOs are themselves fairly accomplished within their careers on the civilian side. So they have SI. contributions to make as well. So they're an essential part of this formation.
00:12:19 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT Yeah. One of our NCOs was a lawyer of 35 plus years, had done really remarkable things in the civilian side. So the idea that I, as a newly commissioned officer, would come in as the experienced person on the civilian side and he was more experienced on the Army side was true on the one hand, but it also was so much more than that because his civilian expertise was also first rate and really quite impressive.
00:12:41 BRIAN HANCOCKfirst rate and really quite impressive. That's amazing. And I don't know if the functional specialty teams will select for that type of talent. It certainly exists, at least within the Army Reserve. We're very skill -rich. That is exciting to me. Now, prior to the establishment of the 38 golf program, who was manning the functional specialty teams?
00:13:03 JOSHUA WEIKERT There is great talent in our formations already. So we had, for example, veterinarians. We had public health practitioners. and people that have civil affairs and what we now think of as sort of 38 Gulf skill sets. With the 38 Gulf program, you have subject matter experts who can get a little further into the weeds in areas where we don't have as much expertise. If someone came up to a practicing JAG lawyer and said, look, we need to design a judiciary system because we're about to massively disrupt the civil administration of this country, they're going to be in the ballpark. They understand courts and civil and criminal procedure and things like that. but they might clearly consider things that I would think of in terms of governmental engineering around separation of powers, how those are selected. And that is what I think 38 Gulfs add to that functional specialty. It lets us accomplish a lot more within the same formation. That makes sense to me.
00:13:51 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT Yeah, I completely agree with that. And clearly the civil affairs units and the FXSPs in particular were doing tremendous work prior to the visioning of the 38 Gulf program. In many cases, it seems as though it might be because of the particular and unique skill sets of those officers and NCOs. I think the Gulf program is trying to actually more systematically identify and bring into the Army persons who have depth to skill.
00:14:17 BRIAN HANCOCKto skill. What I'm hearing is that 38 Gulfs bring out more capability and apply it to the often very complex civil social problems that we work on in the civil affairs community. I read a fair amount of peer -reviewed literature, and I can tell you from that standpoint, since the 38 Gulfs have entered the community, I've seen a lot more peer -reviewed literature coming out. So I think there definitely is some effect from this program, and I'm really excited to see where it's going to lead. Now, at the end of April, the 304th Civil Affairs Brigade, which is commanded by Colonel Toby Humphries, convened the first -ever functional specialty team symposium. How did that come about? What's the history there? Colonel Daniel Fletcher is the FXSP chief of the drill fourth.
00:15:03 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT chief of the drill fourth. So I was as green as they come. And Colonel Fletcher, he was incredibly helpful and kind to me to help me figure out some things. And through that, he learned that there was an onboarding and utility gap of how are we supposed to use these golfs? And he asked around up and down the chain in other units and found out that lots of people were having the same kind of question. So this, I think, was the impetus that he had then to say, well, let's get some people together to talk about some of these issues and see if we can't find solutions to some of these challenges. And then he and our CEO, Colonel Humphreys, talked. And Colonel Humphreys was, as I'm told, immediately enthusiastically on board for this effort. And then through lots of laboring hours and the work of many good officers and NCOs, we put together this symposium. It was a really rich learning experience, let alone a great networking opportunity.
00:16:01 BRIAN HANCOCKThat sounds amazing. I almost wish I had been there. I know one of my mentors, Colonel Bradford Hughes, was there, and probably some of his team as well. What were some of the topics you guys discussed, and did you come to any conclusions or lessons learned that you'd like to share with the community? We had essentially three large chunks.
00:16:19 JOSHUA WEIKERT three large chunks. One was around organization and operations of 38 golfs and ethics SP sections. One was around training and doctrine. And then we specifically also discussed recruitment and personnel and lengthy discussions around accessions and initial onboarding. And we covered a lot of ground in three days. The white paper that is just about ready to be disseminated details the findings and does make some recommendations. But I think far more important than any particular recommendation that came out of it was the fact that we were able to draw all these discussions into one place and one location at one time. I have to believe, greatly increases the likelihood that they are ultimately acted upon because we were able to draw from everyone's best practices and identify where our collective gaps were. And as we sort of pass this up to USKPOC and the command level, this is something that is going to be a little more valuable simply because we were able to reach consensus on even just our concerns.
00:17:17 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT Exactly. It was a tremendously rich experience and a breadth of topics. And you mentioned Colonel Hughes. And he and his team have, I think, sort of set the pace for many of the KCOMs in terms of how they're using gulps in particular. And so I was a bit familiar with him through the literature and through various email types of things, but I'd never really talked with him before. Unfortunately, he couldn't be there in person, so he was presented by a team. But then got the chance to meet him this summer in Madison, Wisconsin, at a training event at the University of Wisconsin. And you want to talk about officers who are... just stellar in terms of their knowledge, but also stellar in terms of character and quality of person. Carl Hughes is right up there as well. So it was just an incredible experience to learn from other KCOMs and to understand history and some of the doctrine issues that arise and to identify road bumps or landmines and avoid them or fix them. But a really great experience that I think was appreciated by all who attended.
00:18:17 JOSHUA WEIKERT all who attended. One of the things that came out of the symposium for me in terms of like genuinely new things that I learned, is that at one point there was the establishment of this Institute for Military Support to Governance, which was formed specifically to identify and support reservists with civilian acquired skills that were applicable to these functional areas. And it sounds like it was a forerunner in many ways to what we think of as the 38 Gulf program today. And it still exists, at least as far as we can tell, absolutely unclear what current status is. But this is something that came up several times during the symposium, is that that could be something that could function as a vehicle to address some of the coordinating. challenges we face and maybe even some of the accessions on board be challenged. And it will just remain to be seen if that's something we can vitalize or revitalize. I love the way you're thinking.
00:19:01 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT Sir, this is part of the benefit of having an academic like Captain Weikert in the planning team. He thinks institutionally and thinks strategically in terms of the doctrine aspect of things. It's not just operational or tactical. The other thing I would mention is Captain Weikert mentioned The white paper from the symposium is soon to be published, but there was an article in the latest edition of The Shield that gives a more thinner or more popular description of what the symposium did and what it accomplished and who was there. So I would encourage any listener who is at least somewhat curious about the symposium to check out The Shield article and then be able to look out for the upcoming white paper.
00:19:40 BRIAN HANCOCKLet me ask you, gentlemen, a test question now that I've got you both warmed up and unsuspecting here. Field manual, three -tack, five -step, civil affairs operations, our Bible, recently updated. It added this new task of civil network development and engagement, or CNDE, which in itself is pretty complicated because we're talking about mapping and engaging interrelated complex adaptive systems. Okay, so mathematically, at least, it's already very complicated. Now, considering how deep the expertise is, within the 38 Gulf community, I would suspect that those folks with those credentials in those communities are probably in a very good position to advance civil network development engagement within their specialty areas. Now let's talk about that concept within the broader Army concept. We're all professionals at this level of our career. How are we as an institution, in your opinion, measuring the strength of the professional networks that we are bringing with us, which are an asset for both civilian and the military? How could we include the strength of someone's network as, say, part of their promotion or board packages? Do you have any thoughts how the Army as an institution could take a better measure? of our professional networks and ability to leverage them to achieve commander's effects. I can say that it did come up at the symposium among that group of 38 Golfs and FXSP members in attendance that this was an essential part of just understanding what our own capabilities were and how do we track and map where everyone lands in terms of their skill sets.
00:21:13 JOSHUA WEIKERT that it did come up at the symposium among that group of 38 Golfs and FXSP members in attendance that this was an essential part of just understanding what our own capabilities were and how do we track and map where everyone lands in terms of their skill sets. So it was something of general interest at the symposium, and it also came up in the context of how we developed training. for 38 golfs and for civil affairs units more generally. And those efforts are likely to be ongoing. But in terms of how to do it, I think it should be relatively straightforward because we already have some of these things sort of populated in the soldier talent profile at HRC, for example. And if we simply adapt that and augment it to specifically identify for civil skills and civil networks, it shouldn't be too challenging to at least get that on paper. Now, how you operationalize that and put it to work is a more challenging question, obviously.
00:22:03 KURT DYKSTRABut it does seem to me as though there is a lot of ad hoc -ness to the way this is happening so far. The point and purpose of the Gulf program is to really get into uniform persons with skills that the Army was lacking. And if we simply have them but don't know about them and don't utilize them and leverage them and execute on them, then maybe to put it in a more concrete way, if we're simply relying upon, I know a guy or I know a gal who has that experience and they happen to be over there. in the 352, well, that's better than not having that information. But it's not really how you want to be running a program like this. Better to have a much more institutionalized, formalized means of understanding networks so that we can affect the broad array of a civil society. Because as we all understand, if a civil society breaks down, it's not just one thing that needs to be addressed. It's about 175 things that need to be addressed. in order for civil society to work. So there's still work to be done there, but I am heartened by the fact that the Gulf community is a robust one intrapersonally and continuing to be more so. And these topics of more institutionalizing that kind of knowledge is absolutely on the topic of conversation for many people who are thinking more seriously about how to do that.
00:23:18 BRIAN HANCOCKpeople who are thinking more seriously about how to do that. I love the fact that this community is actually thinking about these difficult questions that not only affect the army, but... affect the force as a whole and strategically affect our ability to compete and deter, ideally avoiding conflict altogether. And these are things that we have to understand. What networks, how do we invest in them? How do we, if necessary, appropriate them to steer the world away from costly conflict? That is something that needs more attention,
00:23:49 JOSHUA WEIKERT more attention, is there is a very, very, very robust peace mission for 38 Gulf. And I think it's important to remember, too, as we think about how we exploit these talents. For example, the same way our conservationists and cultural property protection folks have a partnership with the Smithsonian, we would want to see that within every skill identifier, that institutional partner becomes a potential warehouse of understanding what their aside people can do and how they can contribute as well. So I think at present, it is very interpersonal, and it's great that we do have that network of folks. But I also think that that is something that will get augmented once we have everything built out to its fullest expression. Carty, do you have a thought on that?
00:24:26 KURT DYKSTRA I was just going to say that we want to be in a spot to have those networks built out and an understanding of the places in which we operate before any hostilities break out. These things are happening and they're happening because of the good work of a whole lot of people, but the program is still pretty young. So we're still gaining our legs and still building it out. And with the kind of caliber of people we have in uniform now through this program, I have no doubt that the future is really,
00:24:50 BRIAN HANCOCKhave no doubt that the future is really, really bright. That's wonderful to hear. The Army has done conflict for a long time, right? This idea of competition is still somewhat new to us, so we're not going to expect overnight our doctrine and schooling to change to be able to help us secure that win in competition. But I'm seeing encouraging signs, and I know we're going to head in that direction, and I really believe the 38 Golfs are going to have a very big role as we look to maximize our return on investment and competition, ideally avoiding conflict altogether. Now, at the symposium, I imagine maybe behind closed doors, a very professional and upfront group who's not afraid to talk about challenges. Within those conversations, what... at present, do you see as the single greatest challenge that needs to be overcome within the 38 Golf community? And what are your suggestions to do so? I'll say one thing.
00:25:52 KURT DYKSTRA To a person who was there, yes, there were some frustrations or constructive criticism ideas, but there was not a person in that room who was not enthusiastic about the program and grateful to be a part of it. So I think part of the challenge in a twofold piece, and both of these things have to do with the program being relatively new. The first one I would say is the accession process and the identification process. How does someone go from never having worn a uniform in the history of their life to commissioning? And how does that process work? And how long does it take for that to happen? Part of the challenge that we see, and I think it's getting better, I was maybe second class of Gulfs that came in, is that it was an on -again, off -again process for close to two years. And if we are trying to identify highly skilled, highly talented, highly experienced civilian personnel to come into uniform, a two -year process is problematic.
00:26:51 BRIAN HANCOCKis problematic. It's strange to me because my recruiter had me in boots before I left his office. And that was actually part of the discussion.
00:26:59 KURT DYKSTRA AND that was actually part of the discussion. In so many other areas, Army recruiting is really, really strong, and there's a clearly established path that you do. And because of the newness and kind of quirkiness of this program, there's less of that, and we're sort of building the ship as we're sailing. Yesterday in the hotel here at Fort Sam, I met a thoracic surgeon who was newly commissioned. And some of those areas that maybe have experience with highly skilled civilian practitioners. coming newly into the Army that have paths that are a bit more developed than what the golf program is. So again, I think it has gotten much better, but it takes time.
00:27:36 JOSHUA WEIKERT time. I think as the program grows and we sort of meet our staffing benchmarks and as we get more practice and more reps in the process, I do believe a lot of this will hire. I think it will as well. The other thing I would say is having the ability for a civil affairs bullet to come into play.
00:27:49 KURT DYKSTRA having the ability for a civil affairs bullet to come into play. We latched on with mainly the JAG officers for GCC and there's... a lot that's great about that, especially as a lawyer. It was very strange. So there were about 100 of us in our Bolick class. All but five of us, I think, were JAG officers. But I was the lawyer who wasn't the JAG. And I was the old guy. So it was really, it was a fascinating couple of months and a lot of fun. But we were sort of sitting along the side as they were talking lots of things about JAG school and what happened next for them. And then to be at AMED Bolick, again, it's a similar sort of thing. And there's, especially for someone new to the Army like me, being around people in the Army is invaluable, regardless of whether it's directly related to my MOS or not. But at some point, it would be helpful to get some specialized training about what it is that the Army expects me to do, apart from the civilian experience that I bring to the table.
00:28:45 JOSHUA WEIKERT In terms of challenges within 38 Gulf, I also find that, organizationally speaking, is how we connect 38 Gulfs with commanders and missions. Because at present, we are relying on these informal networks to pass information along about we need six Delta to go to Poland in two weeks. Who's available? You know, things like that. That's always going to be inefficient, for one thing. We realize a little too much on that ad hoc communications network. And it also means that commanders can't go looking for 38 Gulfs either. So what I think will have to happen sooner or later is having some kind of centralized. repository of mission and or task information that 38 Gulfs can go to and look at ongoing missions or missions in planning. And at the same time, some kind of searchable database where commanders can go find those people. And there are institutions and organizations that have this set up in existence. So it's not something we need to reinvent. It's just something we need to consolidate because it is just very unlikely that every formation in a civil affairs unit will happen to have the right people for their region and their missions. We need to be better to get good information down to every individual 38 golf and up to every commander. And that's just going to take time and awareness to them.
00:29:51 BRIAN HANCOCKtime and awareness to them. That makes perfect sense. So that would help you grow in your skill set and mature your capability as well for everyone's benefit. Totally sold on that. And I think in time, as you mentioned, that's probably going to be developed and roll out. We've talked a lot about the 38 golf program today. Very exciting. I think certainly the best thing that's happened to civil affairs in decades. And I believe over time it'll be one of the best things that's ever happened to the Army and to the military at large. Very exciting. Those in the audience who are listening, who are interested in learning more and perhaps going through that application process, which will shrink in time, of course, what are those steps they need to take? If someone raised their hand and says, sign me up to 38 Golf, what do they do?
00:30:44 JOSHUA WEIKERT the Army and Hound Management website. If you just Google 38 Gulf Army, I believe the first tip that you'll see. And it's been built out over the past three years, adding more context, more information about the steps. But it essentially begins with laying out the basic requirements for the program, which is at least a master's degree in a relevant SI field, and at least professional experience in that as well. Once you've cleared those hurdles, you're then looking at developing your packet, and it does provide good guidance on that. I have already fielded some inquiries from interested NCOs and officers, and there are also some groups that you find on LinkedIn and Signal as well that are very active in discussing this process and how it's going.
00:31:18 BRIAN HANCOCKit's going. Professional football teams don't just recruit from their neighborhood. They go all over the place to get the right specialties, to put them together in the right combination for the right missions and matchups. I love the way you're thinking about putting something together like that. I've honestly felt that... As an institution, one of the things that we should do a little bit better job with in general is knowledge management within the military. If you have deep subject matter expertise, if it's in a very tight area like tech support, they have knowledge bases that you can search. We don't have a lot of tools like that, and we spend a lot of our money on human capital who are producing intellectual property, some of which is lost when a unit rips out or when there isn't a good continuity plan. And of course, the deep knowledge that you're describing, we definitely need a better way to collect, analyze, maintain, and make that accessible. So thinking about 38 Gulfs, and it was described as a consultancy within the Army.
00:32:12 JOSHUA WEIKERT it was described as a consultancy within the Army. So essentially, a staff officer or commander pauses and says, wait, how do I fill in the blank? That should trigger a call at an RFI down to some kind of 38 Gulf to fill that need. Yeah, and two more comments on that. One, this isn't unique to the Army.
00:32:29 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT to the Army. Any organization of any size will sort of talk about knowledge walking out the door. So this is not a unique situation to the Army, though, of course, it's magnified given the size, scale, and scope of what the U .S. Army does. The second thing I would say is, and this was part of the discussion at the symposium, the Colonel Hughes panel, what the 351st does is they house all of their goals at the KCOM level, as opposed to embedding them in brigades or battalions. And that way... Whether it's the ultimate solution or whether it's a matter of a way to actually get their arms around it, they have a sense as to what their capacity is within the 351st because they're all at the KCOM level and can understand that, oh, we have this issue of an agricultural thing happening in the Philippines. Wonderful. We know who we can send to help out on that mission. As things continue to get better, and they clearly have gotten better. But as this program is longer and more experienced and has more people in it and more knowledge shared through it, I fully expect that the process will get better and the knowledge that we're able to share in social life.
00:33:31 BRIAN HANCOCKI definitely think it will. We're approaching our time for the show. I wanted to give you a few last minutes for each of you. Do you have any final thoughts that you would like to share with the community? First of all, thanks for having us on,
00:33:46 KURT DYKSTRA AND JOSHUA WEIKERT on, sir. It's been a real treat to be able to talk with you. In addition to the great resources that Captain Weikert mentioned, feel free to reach out to us if you have questions on the golf program. We may not have all the answers, but we can probably be a good conduit into the network to help get you the answers, or at least the right people who would have the answers. So happy to field any phone calls or emails about the golf program. Awesome.
00:34:07 JOSHUA WEIKERT And I would just say to anyone who's currently in the pipeline or is thinking about applying or has recently commissioned and is very sort of new to the process, patience is the key. I know it seems like it's taking forever. It has gotten better with every iteration. It seems like the sort of processing time is getting smaller and smaller and all these things. So just hang in there and it does reach a conclusion eventually.
00:34:26 BRIAN HANCOCKa conclusion eventually. Well, thank you both very much, Major Dijkstra and Captain Weikert for coming on the show. That concludes this issue of 1CA Podcast.
00:34:37 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at [email protected]. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U.S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
-
Please welcome back Grant Newsham, retired marine colonel and author of When China Attacks, A Warning to America.
Grant came on the show to discuss the state of the Japan Defense Forces and the PRC threat. This is a two-part episode.
Grant's biography: https://centerforsecuritypolicy.org/author/grant-newsham/Book link: https://www.regnery.com/9781684513659/when-china-attacks/A recent article: https://andmagazine.substack.com/p/the-us-in-the-pacific-getting-the?utm_source=substack&publication_id=746580&post_id=151553726&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&utm_campaign=email-share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&r=ercjf&triedRedirect=true
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to the site Cool Jazz Hot Bossa for the sample of Cool Jazz Hot Bossa. (59:00).Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWUj2NYDYQ
---
Transcript: (Part I)
00:00:05 JACK GAINESWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. Or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes. Please welcome Grant Newsham, retired Marine Colonel and author of When China Attacks, A Warning to America. Grant came on the show to discuss the state of the Japan Defense Forces and the PRC threat. This is the first of a two-part episode, so let's get started.
00:00:56 GRANT NEWSHAMI was effectively MarforPak's guy in Asia for a number of years. which worked well in both directions. So I was obviously in Japan, but also did a lot of work for them throughout the region, Southeast Asia as well, Taiwan even, which was a lot of fun.
00:01:13 JACK GAINESYeah. And you've become a foreign policy advocate in the area.
00:01:16 GRANT NEWSHAMYeah. At some point, maybe seven or eight years ago, figured I'd actually done enough stuff to maybe have a few ideas. So I started writing and speak a lot as well. So I guess I'm part of the commentariat. But I seem to write about once a week some topic related to often Asian defense, but sometimes economics, politics, sometimes organized crime. And I do get invited to speak here and there and seem to get a number of television or radio interviews as well. That's really cool. I didn't say I get invited to good things, but I do get the occasional invitation. I used to think it was because I had such insight. Someone told me not all that long ago that actually, if you'll say yes to an interview, you're likely to get more of them. Because the people who book them, they just want to get somebody on. And I thought it was because of my particular wisdom.
00:02:07 JACK GAINESof my particular wisdom.
00:02:09 GRANT NEWSHAMI'm joking a little bit. But obviously, you must have something useful to say. But it is funny. There's one place in Singapore that calls me a lot. It's like their CNN. And they've been calling me. Probably eight years at least, or almost every time, I'll tell the presenters that basically they don't know what they're talking about. And I always think, well, this is the last one, but they keep calling me up. They mislike you because you're the contrarian.
00:02:34 JACK GAINESmislike you because you're the contrarian.
00:02:36 GRANT NEWSHAMOh, I can blame things in a way that sort of suits broadcast and that sort of regular people can understand, you know,
00:02:42 GRANT NEWSHAMthat sort of regular people can understand, you know, being a regular person myself.
00:02:47 JACK GAINESYeah, you learn to disagree without offending.
00:02:49 GRANT NEWSHAMUsually. And it's always sort of a relief, actually, when you can have a different look at things.
00:02:56 JACK GAINESThat's good. I always thought you were going to say it is a relief sometimes when you just peel the coat off and then yell at them.
00:03:02 GRANT NEWSHAMThe facts speak for themselves. Right. And if it's a presenter, their role is different, and they will generally not have the substantive knowledge that most of the people on the show will have. Right. And so much of what I have to say is often not... in line with accepted wisdom, particularly when it comes to Japan. Sure. So it's often that I'll have to present a different take on things, but they don't seem to be offended.
00:03:27 JACK GAINESRight. You mostly talk about Japan in its current defense fashion or in its foreign policy actions.
00:03:33 GRANT NEWSHAMA lot of that because people have a perception of Japan, for example, as a pacifist country. It cannot fight. It's peace loving. Right. etc. They have a nuclear allergy. You know, just the idea of nuclear weapons in Japan is out of the question. You often hear, well, their constitution won't let them fight. And none of those things are actually true. But it's the received wisdom. It's what people think. And when you simply point out the realities of Japan, that ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a country just like every other. And that the stereotypes about it really aren't correct when it comes to defense security. In fact, they use that the Constitution won't let them have a military. You probably heard it. Yeah. That's the idea. And they don't even call it a military. But the fact is they've got a military, which, according to some ratings, is the fifth most powerful in the world. It depends on how you calculate it, of course. But they call it something else. And what is the actual distinction between offensive and defensive weapons?
00:04:35 JACK GAINESIt's usually the strike space. If it's inside your own country defending, then it's a defense space. Once you go out and start taking out other people's cities and moving forces in.
00:04:44 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, for example, they don't have much what you call power projection capability very far off their borders. But they do have a submarine fleet, say over 20 submarines. There's no reason you couldn't send them to the coast of China and start sinking ships.
00:04:59 JACK GAINESTrue.
00:05:00 GRANT NEWSHAMThey've got F -16s. You can put long -range missiles on them and you can fly out of ways and cause people a lot of trouble. But their military really, I would say, is not so good at offense. It's not so good at defense either. And that's something that comes as a surprise to a lot of people.
00:05:15 JACK GAINESWell, do they exercise defense and offense?
00:05:18 GRANT NEWSHAMOh, they have exercises, training, and they put on a pretty good show, particularly when they have visitors come. But they really, until very recently, and even now, they can't do joint operations, which means the air, sea, and ground forces. can't operate together. In fact, they don't even have a radio with which they can communicate easily. They have to jury -rig some relations, these connections. And that's something most people don't understand, because you look at it on paper. Japan has 250 ,000 people in its military, and it's got ships, aircraft, all of it modern and good stuff. 150 ,000 people in its ground self -defense force, their army. But it's not even the sum of its whole. If you imagine each of your limbs, your arms and your legs, each doing whatever it wants without the coordinating function provided by a brain.
00:06:10 JACK GAINESSounds like me dancing.
00:06:12 GRANT NEWSHAMIt would be, yeah. I think that I can picture that, whereas I'm more of an Arthur Murray kind of guy. But it's like that. And nobody can believe that because they think, well, this is the Japanese. It's this advanced modern country, big military, the rich country. And I mean, they can't even do these simple things. Right. The short answer is no, except in some limited circumstances. After 60 years of the U .S.-Japan defense relationship, 80 years after World War II, they still cannot do some of the basic things that a military needs to do, or do them very well, put it that way. But they do train, they exercise, the personnel quality is excellent. You know, we tend to say, well, we've got Japan as our ally, Japan has a military. But the reality is that the U .S. and Japanese forces cannot work very well together. There's one exception, and that's the two navies. The U .S. Navy and the Japanese Navy, called the Maritime Self -Defense Force, they actually do work well. And they show what's doable.
00:07:15 JACK GAINESThey probably do dynamic exercises as well as structured ones, so they have to change, have to practice new orders and maneuvers.
00:07:22 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, the nature of naval operations is you can go out... into the sea, and you have more freedom to actually do stuff. But part of it actually was when Admiral Arleigh Burke, who was later chief of naval operations for many years, he was in charge in Japan. He basically laid down the ground rules, which was that the American Navy was going to treat the Japanese like friends, like allies. And that set the tone for everything. So they had a more relationship of equals, people who wanted to operate together. And that is why they have a good relationship today. in my opinion. So as a result, after all these decades, the two militaries are not really very good at operating together. There's no joint headquarters. There never has been in Japan. At best, they've operated in isolation. Do they recognize they don't have a joint access? Oh, they know. The Japanese military knows this. And US Indo -PACOM has not pushed the issue. And then you had... The State Department side, on the civilian side, people saying, well, if we ask the Japanese to get better at defense matters, well, they'll get angry. And if they do, then the Chinese will be mad. So you have the U .S. on the U .S. side. We're thinking of at least 10 reasons why Japan cannot improve its defenses. That's changed enough in recent years. But you see how many decades we've lost.
00:08:51 JACK GAINESRight. I can see part of what the State Department is saying in that a lot of those countries along the Asian coast were under Japanese rule during World War II. They're concerned that by showing favor and coordinating with them in defense might offend places like the Philippines or Korea. It is a concern to be weighed, but I don't know how much weight you would put to it.
00:09:14 GRANT NEWSHAMI wouldn't give it hardly any. With the Japanese, when you actually think about it, I would say within... 30 years of the end of the war, but certainly today, and for the last at least 20 years ago. The new century. Even before that. The Japanese and World War II is not really an issue in almost all of Asia. The Chinese, of course... Play it up. That's a good way to put it. Of course, they do remember what the Japanese did, and it was barbaric. Although the Chinese Communist Party afterwards killed 50 million Chinese in peacetime and good weather, which the Imperial Japanese Army couldn't have dreamed of doing. But World War II is an issue in China. Korea as well, the relationship is dicey. Up to a point. I mean, little old ladies go and sit in front of the embassy still.
00:10:05 JACK GAINESthe embassy still.
00:10:06 GRANT NEWSHAMThere are, and then you just had a South Korean amphibious ship come to Yokosuka in Tokyo on a visit. In Korea, there's a fundamental sort of suspicion of the Japanese. Sometimes it is a real dislike. But most people, it's not a big issue. But except for those two countries, you go down the list in Asia, and there is no after effect of World War II. I find the Filipinos get along very well with the Japanese. The Indonesians do. They, in fact, see the Japanese as being the people who freed them from the colonial yoke. Okay. The Malays, they actually didn't have that bad a time during the occupation. The Chinese in Malaysia did. So the Malaysians don't have any really hard feelings against the Japanese. Taiwan, same thing. They've got a very good relationship. And then there's one plus billion Indians who actually have an excellent relationship with Japan and see Japan as real friends and vice versa. So you're starting to get a good chunk of Asia, which, as you can see, actually sees Japan as a good country, useful economically. It's been very generous. And they like to see a Japanese military that's strong enough, allied with the United States, able to deal with China.
00:11:27 JACK GAINESRight. And why would we have such a different balance as we do with Germany and Europe? Because no one's questioning this in Holland or in France. That's just another country. They freely trade, they freely access each other. So maybe mindset just needs to shift to say the reform of Japan is just like Germany, and we need to start treating them and partner nations the same and start advocating for a joint staff.
00:11:52 GRANT NEWSHAMAnd you could do that in an afternoon, but the Japanese will not speak up for themselves. And an old New York Times reporter, Richard Halloran, I remember him telling me once that all the people he ever dealt with in the world... The Japanese were the worst at explaining themselves. And there's a reticence which slows them down. But also the Americans are afraid to tell them what we need. And that is a huge problem, because if we don't tell them, the Japanese are not blind readers, and they won't do what we think we'd like them to do, but we're afraid to ask. And in fact, one of the Japanese prime ministers in 1970, so 50 -some years ago, He gave some very good advice to the Americans, and it was at the time the Americans were trying to put an aircraft carrier into Yokosuka, the naval base near Tokyo. They wanted to assign it there permanently. And the U .S. side was thinking of excuses why it was too hard for the Japanese. They'll cause political difficulties. The Japanese have an election coming up. The timing just isn't right. And finally, the Japanese side sent a message to the Americans saying, tell us what you need. And don't back down. And they said it out of exasperation, really. And it was the best advice the Americans have ever been given. And we've refused to follow it ever since then. And really, it's almost a cultural trait, sort of a Confucian system. They actually are happy to have experts tell them what they ought to do. Sure. Whereas we are more of the Socratic method. And it doesn't, it just doesn't work. That's why after all these years, the Americans and the Japanese forces, except for the navies, And except for missile defense, we really don't operate together anywhere near where we need to be. We're not even close. And another very interesting fact a lot of people don't know is the Japanese military missed its recruitment targets by about 50 % last year. 5 -0?
00:13:50 JACK GAINES-0?
00:13:50 GRANT NEWSHAM5 -0. And it routinely misses them by 20 -25%. So this, you can see, is a problem. It's now an older force, doesn't have enough people. In order to fulfill its missions, it would probably have to be twice as big, both personnel -wise and in terms of ships and hardware. Its war stocks are basically non -existent, doesn't know anything really about casualty care, combat casualty replacements, logistics.
00:14:20 JACK GAINESWell, if the media looks down on it and the political class looks down on it, it's not going to get a lot of positivity in the public mindset. So that's got to be part of it. It's not a vote -getter to push for a strong defense.
00:14:31 GRANT NEWSHAMvote -getter to push for a strong defense. I mean, if you're a politician, no one's going to say, he's the defense guy, let's give him our vote. But people vote for other reasons. But you do get used to, after that horrific experience in World War II, that for decades people didn't want to really think about defense, and they were glad to have the Americans around to handle it, and particularly when it seemed like there wasn't any real threat anywhere. People were happy with that, and even the U .S. side. didn't mind it as well. But I'd say it should have started to change at least 20 years ago. And it didn't until maybe four or five years ago. Well,
00:15:10 JACK GAINESwhen did the risk indicators really start popping up with China?
00:15:14 GRANT NEWSHAMI think by... It can't be back when Nixon went.
00:15:15 JACK GAINESIt can't be back when Nixon went. Well, it should have,
00:15:16 GRANT NEWSHAMit should have, you know, I think. But about 2005 is when it was obvious what was coming.
00:15:19 JACK GAINESBut about
00:15:21 GRANT NEWSHAMwhen it was obvious what was coming. And even before that, if you knew what to look for. But as I said, some of us... We knew what needed done and what the problems were. And there were Japanese who did too. And that's why when we put together their amphibious force, it was sort of an effort to address the shortcomings in Japan's self -defense force. Also to improve the overall U .S.-Japan relationship because it was so imbalanced. Right. Where the Japanese weren't doing anything near enough to defend themselves. And that over time creates a lot of friction in a relationship. So we were trying to address that with the amphibious force, and that was 2011, which we were pretty successful at that because we didn't ask permission from anybody. I was going to say, if you were successful,
00:16:10 JACK GAINESdid you get fired?
00:16:11 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, it's not that people didn't try.
00:16:11 JACK GAINESWell, it's not that people didn't try. Sorry, that was sarcastic. But I was a reservist, so they couldn't quite get a bead on me.
00:16:15 GRANT NEWSHAMI was a reservist, so they couldn't quite get a bead on me. Yeah. And didn't quite know what we were doing. And also you had people like General Gregson, who was then at... Department of Defense, who had been in Japan many years, and he knew the importance of it all. So he would provide some cover. But the real success there was because the Japanese side took the ideas and ran with it. And the Americans provided some cover and some know -how and some advice. But it was the Japanese who did that. Once the Japanese took on the mission, well, what are the Americans going to say? But I was even told that at Indo -PACOM, that there were people who gotten wind of this and were very much opposed because the idea that Japanese having an amphibious force was provocative. Not just provocative, but it was going to cause the Japanese to go on the rampage again, like in 1941. I'm not making this up.
00:17:11 JACK GAINESSo when Germany starts building the Leopard 2, were they expected to go on a rampage too?
00:17:17 GRANT NEWSHAMNo, those are Europeans. Oh, okay. You know how the Europeans are okay.
00:17:19 JACK GAINESokay. You know
00:17:21 GRANT NEWSHAMBut the fact that Germans have been allowed back into polite society. tells you something, and the Japanese are just as deserving of it as well.
00:17:30 JACK GAINESDid you see the movie Godzilla Minus One? No. It's an interesting portrayal of post -World War II Japan. And Godzilla, which is this giant monster, comes out of the sea, tears up Japan, and has an atomic breath that shoots off nuclear explosions, which sounds a lot like the United States in a mythological way. One thing that... the show did that was interesting is it kind of engaged post -military era and had talked about it. And it seemed like it was trying to reconcile the past with now and build out a notion that the military is okay, that after the war, there were good things that happened and that we should embrace a military in the future. So there might be some societal impulses out there that are promoting and supporting a more built -up military in Japan.
00:18:24 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, you're actually right. The public at large has always been pretty supportive of the military. For example, when they have open base days, when they put on so -called firepower demonstrations, which is like an exercise you can watch where they shoot off stuff, that they're always oversubscribed. And people just pour into these things because they're interested. And the central government, or say the ruling class, are the ones who are gun -shy or... I'm really hesitant, but the public at large, you know, when you ask them, you know, should Japan have a normal military? The replies to that are like 85%. Well, yes, of course. And I think they would be horrified if they knew the actual state of the Japanese military. I mentioned this to a Japanese politician last year, and he was horrified at the idea. And the public as well would have a similar reaction. Regular Japanese people say they have a pretty good understanding of what Japan needs to do to defend itself and of the importance of having a national defense, but the government doesn't explain it very well. When they do, the reaction, there's a Japanese expression, it's called like, it's atarimae. And it means like, well, yeah. It's like, duh.
00:19:42 JACK GAINESAbnautually. And that's what it means.
00:19:42 GRANT NEWSHAMAnd that's what it means. Should Japan have a good defense? Atarimae. And yeah, what's the question here? But if you ask that question in the political world, then you'll get all sorts of emming and hawing. They wanted nothing of that. By the late 70s, certainly by the 90s, that they sort of outlived that. But it was comfortable to continue with it, particularly if you're the government, because you don't have to spend money on defense. And the Americans are covering that. So it was as if the Americans were giving. I'd say at least $50 billion a year in free defense coverage, at least, probably more. And, you know, if you're a government, you think, well, why should we do anything different? And so they got used to that. We got used to it. And then at some point, the friction builds up where you just can't do that. And the Japanese themselves start to be resentful.
00:20:37 JACK GAINESRight. Keeping them handicapped, probably.
00:20:40 GRANT NEWSHAMYeah. You know, they're not letting us be self -fulfilled. I think that's sort of the marriage counselor's analysis. And so that imbalance was such that it was creating huge problems in the relationship. But the defense relationship, you know, pointing out, well, you know, you guys really aren't very good, except for the Navy. You know, and we can't work with you very well, except for the Navies. And as a result, that's why we are where we are today. By now, if we had a more sort of capable U .S.-Japan defense relationship, where the two services could... operate together, and we're conducting a joint defense of Japan and the surrounding areas, which includes, say, to Taiwan even, that that would have, I think, deterred a lot of the problems that we're having. But by pretending everything was okay, we've gotten ourselves in a position where we now face a real threat out there. And we're trying to make up for lost time. And I don't know. And I don't know which side I would bet on. I'd bet on ours because I'm an American. But that's how out of whack it has gotten. It used to be maybe till 20 years ago, we were in pretty good shape. But you can see that advantage eroding. And nowadays, depending on how a fight were to take place, if it does take place, it would be less of a sure thing than it once was. And that's, I think, putting it very nicely.
00:22:04 JACK GAINESWell, tell me about the threat.
00:22:05 GRANT NEWSHAMWhat are you seeing? It's China. led by the Chinese Communist Party.
(Part II)
00:00:02 JACK GAINESWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes. Please welcome back Grant Newsham, retired Marine colonel and author of When China Attacks, A Warning to America. Grant came on the show to discuss the state of the Japanese defense forces and the PRC threat. This is the second in a two-part episode, so let's get started.
00:00:56 SPEAKER_02It's China. led by the Chinese Communist Party. They built up a military which is just gradually but steadily expanding its reach and its coverage. And it is compared to, say, 2020, now instead of just being able to operate a little bit off their coast, they can reach Guam, Hawaii, and onwards. The Chinese military doesn't tend to develop into a force able to operate worldwide just like the U .S. can. And their ship numbers. They've got more than we do. Something like 350 versus our 290.
00:00:58 JACK GAINESthe Chinese Communist Party.
00:01:06 JACK GAINESits reach
00:01:11 JACK GAINESsay, 2020, now instead of just being able to operate a little bit
00:01:15 GRANT NEWSHAMoff their coast, they can reach Guam, Hawaii, and onwards. The Chinese military doesn't tend to develop into a force able to operate worldwide just
00:01:25 JACK GAINESlike the U .S. can. And their ship numbers. They've got more than we do. Something like 350 versus our
00:01:37 SPEAKER_02Well, fortunately, in terms of quality, they're pretty good. And they know what they need to do, and they're getting better. For some things like carrier operations, they're not at our level yet. But if you look at the speed at which they have developed, they're in pretty good shape. But let's just say the South China Sea, which is one and a half times the size of the Mediterranean. Whenever U .S. ships go in there, and we do publicize our transits and operations and exercises, for every ship we put in there, For every ship we put in, the Chinese can match it with at least 10. And that doesn't include ground -based and air -launched anti -ship missiles, for example. So if the Chinese pick their spot,
00:01:39 JACK GAINESthey're pretty good. And they know what they need to do, and they're getting better. For some things like carrier operations, they're not at our level yet. But if you look at the speed at which they have developed, they're in pretty good shape. But let's just say the South China Sea, which is one and a half times the size of the Mediterranean.
00:02:00 JACK GAINESand we do publicize our transits and operations and exercises, for every ship we put in there, For every ship we put in, the Chinese can match it with at least 10. And that doesn't include ground -based and air -launched anti -ship missiles, for example.
00:02:16 SPEAKER_02if the Chinese pick their spot, pick their timing, I wouldn't want to be the destroyer skipper who's got 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him. 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him. And he's got eight seconds to figure out what to do. The point is they have had de facto control of the South China Sea since about seven, eight years ago. And yes, we can go in there. But once we're gone, the Chinese close back up and they've pretty much got it. Beyond that, it's harder for them, but they're steadily expanding their capability to conduct operations. It's a military that has its problems, like every military, but they are trying to correct them. They are building a military which they want to be able to defeat a country that has aircraft carriers, which is us. In many respects, they are our equals. Have you ever heard a Korean War veteran who said he wanted to fight the Chinese again? And these were Chinese. These was the Chinese of 1950s. It's a very different place today. And I'm not saying that they can't be defeated, but I'm not saying that they can't be defeated. An adversary that could give us a lot of trouble. When their intentions are to first dominate regionally and locally, and then push that farther afield to all the Pacific and beyond. And they're setting up the infrastructure worldwide with ports and airfields to do that. They're investing in long -range transports, these naval replenishment ships that you need to be able to operate the way we do, and that's their mission. And we have pretended until about 2017 that this wasn't the case. In fact, you couldn't even say China was an adversary. And guys who did, like Captain James Fennell, who was the head of intelligence at Pack Fleet. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. The then administration hated him and got rid of him. And that's how bad it was. And I saw this all firsthand. Experience some of it, not as bad as Captain Fennell did. So we've allowed them to build up into a military that we had better take very seriously. And the Chinese do see this as a tool for their...
00:02:16 JACK GAINESif the
00:02:17 SPEAKER_03Chinese pick their spot, pick their timing, I wouldn't want to be the destroyer skipper who's got 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him. 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him.
00:02:28 JACK GAINESfigure out what to do. The point is they have had de facto control of the South China Sea since about seven, eight years ago.
00:02:39 JACK GAINESwe're gone, the Chinese close back up and they've pretty much got it. Beyond that, it's
00:02:45 SPEAKER_03but they're steadily expanding their capability to conduct operations. It's a military that has its problems, like every military, but they are trying to correct them. They are
00:02:55 JACK GAINESa military which they want to be able to defeat a country that has aircraft carriers, which is us. In many respects,
00:03:03 JACK GAINESour equals. Have you ever heard a Korean War veteran who said he wanted to fight the Chinese again? And these were Chinese. These was the Chinese of 1950s. It's a very different place today. And I'm not saying that they can't be defeated, but I'm not saying that they can't
00:03:22 JACK GAINESa lot of trouble. When their intentions are to first dominate regionally and locally, and then push that farther afield to all the Pacific and beyond. And they're setting up the infrastructure worldwide with ports and airfields to do that. They're investing in long -range transports, these naval replenishment ships that you need to be able to operate the way we do, and that's their mission. And we have pretended
00:03:50 SPEAKER_03until about 2017
00:03:51 GRANT NEWSHAMthat this wasn't the case. In fact, you couldn't even say China was an adversary. And guys who did, like Captain James Fennell,
00:04:01 JACK GAINESwho was the head of intelligence at Pack Fleet. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. The then administration hated him and got rid of him. And that's how bad it was. And I saw this all firsthand. Experience some of it, not as bad as Captain Fennell did. So we've allowed them to build up into a military that we had better take very seriously. And the Chinese do see this as a tool for
00:04:30 SPEAKER_02The idea is if you have a powerful military, well, that's when you can lean on people. That's when you can intimidate people. You can dominate them. And they're happy with the psychological domination, political domination. It doesn't have to be occupying, but dominating. And they're in every field, from outer space, long -range missiles, undersea warfare, really putting a lot of effort into it. And there is a certain sort of ingenuity that goes into their operations. Well, they can't invent things. They don't develop things on their own. They just steal things. So they reverse engineer things. So they reverse engineer.
00:04:32 SPEAKER_03well, that's when you can lean on people. That's when
00:04:39 JACK GAINESAnd they're happy with the psychological domination, political domination. It doesn't have to be occupying, but dominating. And they're in every field, from outer space, long -range missiles, undersea warfare, really putting a lot of effort into it. And there is a certain sort of ingenuity that goes into their operations. Well, they can't invent things. They don't develop things on their own. They just steal things. So they reverse engineer things.
00:05:09 SPEAKER_02Well, it... You know, it's kind of true up to a point, but look at us. The Yankee ingenuity was taking stolen British technology and making it better. And so the fact they may not be as innovative as us, well, sometimes it just has to be good enough. So they've got now a military to combine with this desire for political domination as well as considering their economic power as just as important as the military. And you see how successful that has been. When you have U .S. business leaders giving Xi Jinping two standing ovations last November in San Francisco, that tells you how successful they've been on the economic front. And the Japanese know they have a huge problem. You would often hear the Japanese military saying, one thing Taiwan's defense is Japan's defense. But I've even seen the calculations they did, like at which point the Japanese Navy would be outmatched by the Chinese Navy. And they had the date almost down to when it was. And our side, we were late recognizing this. We refused to. We refused to.
00:05:11 GRANT NEWSHAMkind of true up to a point, but look at us. The Yankee ingenuity was taking stolen British technology and making it better. And so the fact
00:05:20 SPEAKER_03be as innovative as us, well, sometimes it just
00:05:23 JACK GAINEShas to be good enough. So they've got now a military to combine with this desire for political domination as well as considering their economic power as just as important as the military. And you see how successful that has been. When you have U .S. business leaders giving Xi Jinping two standing
00:05:45 JACK GAINESSan Francisco, that tells you how successful they've been on the economic front. And the Japanese know they have a huge problem. You
00:05:53 SPEAKER_03would often hear the Japanese military saying, one thing Taiwan's defense is Japan's defense. But I've even seen the calculations they did, like at which
00:06:03 JACK GAINESpoint the
00:06:06 JACK GAINESbe outmatched by the Chinese Navy. And they had the date almost down to when it was. And our side, we were late recognizing this. We refused
00:07:18 SPEAKER_02Yeah, as he described it well. Ultimately, the military part of the fight is extremely important. But it's almost a sideshow. But it's almost a sideshow to the other activities, the other fight that China's been waging for the last 30, 40 years, almost ever since we opened up to them. And that has been generally referred to as political warfare, with components being economic warfare, financial warfare, drug warfare, which is the word the Chinese use. So all this fentanyl that's been pumped into America for the last decade that's killed up towards a million Americans, almost all of it comes from China. And they know exactly what they're doing. And so every year they're taking like the equivalent of two or three divisions off the battlefield. You've destroyed neighborhoods. You've destroyed successful economic warfare. Drive 30 miles up the road to Baltimore. Go to Sparrows, Baltimore. Where there used to be steel mills. And now you have Amazon fulfillment sectors at best. But you've seen just the gutting of American society, the so -called working class, the Rust Belt. And this was done intentionally. And this was done intentionally. In large part, Chinese economic warfare directed at the United States. And then you have cyber warfare as well. You have cyber espionage. Well beyond what countries normally do. But they have used it very effectively. And the Chinese just... Recently put out their new fighter. That's called the J -35. That is a dig at the Americans. Because it is based on stolen blueprints for the F -35. I don't know.
00:07:20 SPEAKER_03Ultimately, the military part of the
00:07:26 SPEAKER_03it's almost a sideshow.
00:07:29 JACK GAINESsideshow to the other activities, the other fight that China's been waging for the last 30, 40 years, almost ever since we opened up to them. And that has been generally referred to as political warfare, with components being economic warfare, financial warfare, drug warfare, which is the word the Chinese use. So all this fentanyl that's been pumped into America for the last decade that's killed up towards a million Americans, almost all of it comes from China. And they know exactly what they're doing. And so every year they're taking like the equivalent of two or three divisions off the battlefield. You've destroyed neighborhoods. You've destroyed successful economic warfare. Drive 30 miles up the road to Baltimore. Go to Sparrows, Baltimore. Where there used to be steel mills. And now you have Amazon fulfillment sectors at best. But you've seen just the gutting of American society, the so -called working class, the Rust Belt. And this was done intentionally.
00:08:26 JACK GAINESwarfare directed at the United States. And then you have cyber warfare as well. You have cyber espionage.
00:08:34 SPEAKER_03Well beyond what countries normally do. But they have used it very effectively. And the Chinese just... Recently put out their new fighter. That's called the J -35. That is a dig at
00:08:47 GRANT NEWSHAMit is based on stolen blueprints for the F -35.
00:08:55 GRANT NEWSHAMknow. It's been a while. I don't know. It's been a while.
00:09:02 SPEAKER_02Unfortunately, Copperfish is leapfrogging over stages. Yes, it may take them a little longer, but they will popscotch through it. And so... So I take it pretty seriously. Their Y -20, their long -range transport, is basically the C -17. And they've just been immensely successful at this sort of espionage. And at the same time, we've done nothing to push back on them. Then there's the propaganda angle of this, which really good old Jesuit meaning of the word just means to explain yourself or articulate your position. So people understand that they've been very successful in getting Americans to buy the Chinese line. China's rise is peaceful. China's rise is peaceful. China's never attacked anybody. China's never attacked anybody. It's not true. All great nations do this. So who are we to complain? America has its problems, too. America has its problems, too. Who are we to complain about the Chinese taking live organs out of Uyghurs and prisoners of conscience? And we've been able to convince ourselves that we've been able to convince ourselves that we've not only can we not do anything, we shouldn't do anything. This is changing. But you can see we were very late getting started. And this has all been done without firing a shot. Chinese economic inroads, Chinese economic inroads, which leads to political influence, is in, for example, South America and Africa. Just immense how fast that has come, how solid it is. Pacific Island, something similar is going on, something similar is going on. Look at the difficulties the Germans have had, weaning themselves off of this Chinese addiction. And as a result,
00:09:03 GRANT NEWSHAMis leapfrogging over stages. Yes, it may take them
00:09:07 SPEAKER_03but they will
00:09:09 GRANT NEWSHAMpopscotch through it. And so... So I take it pretty seriously. Their Y -20,
00:09:16 JACK GAINEStheir long -range transport, is basically the C -17. And they've just been immensely successful at this sort of espionage. And at the same time, we've done nothing to push back on them. Then there's the propaganda angle of this, which really good old Jesuit meaning of the word just means to explain yourself or articulate your position. So people understand that they've been very successful in getting Americans to buy the Chinese line. China's rise is peaceful. China's rise is peaceful. China's never attacked anybody. China's never attacked anybody. It's not true. All great nations do this. So who are we to complain?
00:09:49 SPEAKER_03America has its problems, too. America has its problems, too. Who are we to complain about the Chinese taking live organs out of Uyghurs and prisoners of conscience? And we've been able to
00:10:00 JACK GAINESthat we've been able
00:10:00 SPEAKER_03to convince ourselves that we've not only can we not do anything, we shouldn't do anything. This is changing. But you can see we were very late getting started. And this has all been done without firing a shot.
00:10:10 JACK GAINESChinese economic inroads, Chinese economic inroads, which leads to political influence, is in, for example, South America and Africa. Just immense how fast that has come, how solid it is. Pacific Island, something similar is going on, something similar is going on.
00:10:27 SPEAKER_03Look at the difficulties the Germans have had, weaning themselves off of this Chinese addiction.
00:10:34 SPEAKER_02as a result, they have been able to improve their position politically, psychologically, economically, and they've been able to do this globally without having to use their military.
00:10:36 SPEAKER_03their position
00:10:40 GRANT NEWSHAMand they've been able to do this globally without having to use their military.
00:10:51 SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's the idea. Is you don't want to. So our view of warfare is like a hundred -yard dash. Wherever the two sides come to the line, shake loose, and then someone fires a gun, and then someone fires a gun, and then it's game on. To the Chinese, the war has started long ago. And you're wearing down your opponent. You're weakening his ability to resist. You're creating chaos in his own country. There's a word called entropy. Which is just breaking down. Entropic warfare is a word that sometimes gets used. For you're breaking down his ability to resist. And at the same time, of course, the Chinese are building up a military, which is very serious. Yes, it's not showing up off of San Diego just yet. But places closer to China, it's much more of an issue. Japan knows the problem they have with the People's Liberation Army. Pacific Island, Southeast Asia. You are seeing more of a Chinese presence. And the point is, when the time comes, you may not even be able to resist if the Chinese have done this other sort of warfare.
00:10:53 JACK GAINESwant to. So our view of warfare is like a hundred -yard dash. Wherever the two sides come to the line, shake loose, and then someone fires a gun, and then someone fires a gun, and then it's game on. To the Chinese, the war has started long ago. And you're wearing down your opponent. You're weakening his ability to resist. You're creating chaos in his own country. There's a word called entropy. Which is just breaking down. Entropic warfare is a word that
00:11:19 SPEAKER_03sometimes gets used. For you're breaking down his ability to resist. And at the same time, of course, the Chinese are building up a military, which is very serious.
00:11:28 JACK GAINESYes, it's not showing
00:11:33 JACK GAINESplaces closer to China, it's much more of an issue. Japan knows the problem they have with the People's Liberation Army. Pacific Island, Southeast Asia. You are seeing more
00:11:46 JACK GAINESChinese presence. And the point is, when the time comes, you may not even be able to resist if the Chinese have
00:11:52 SPEAKER_03this other
00:12:31 SPEAKER_02That's exactly what it is. It's mental warfare. You're attacking the mind. You're attacking how people think about things. Some people use the word cognitive warfare. You're the popular word. Yeah, you're attacking the mind. And so you can see how well it worked. And the Russians had a much poorer hand to play than the Chinese do. Because we do so much business with China. And you see how hard it is to do things like ban TikTok. We can't even get that done.
00:12:33 JACK GAINESmental warfare. You're attacking the mind. You're attacking how people think about things. Some people use the
00:12:42 JACK GAINESYou're the popular word. Yeah, you're attacking the mind. And so you can see how well it worked. And the Russians had a much poorer hand to play than
00:12:50 GRANT NEWSHAMthe Chinese do. Because we do so much business with China. And you see how hard it is to do things like ban TikTok. We can't even get that done.
00:12:59 SPEAKER_02We can't even get that done.
00:13:03 SPEAKER_02Look, 72 hours, if that for the Indians do, we can do it. And you see how Chinese successfully use what they call lawfare, which is using our own legal system. And the idea is that you get proxies, influential foreigners in your target country to actually do your bidding for you. The Chinese have like five aces to play. The Russians might have won, but you can see how successful the Russians have been just with that.
00:13:04 JACK GAINESfor the Indians do, we can do it. And you see how Chinese successfully use what they call lawfare, which
00:13:13 JACK GAINESthe idea is that you get proxies, influential foreigners in your target country to actually do your bidding for you. The Chinese have like five aces to play. The Russians might have won, but you can see how successful the Russians have
00:13:41 SPEAKER_02Uh -huh. Uh -huh.
00:13:46 SPEAKER_02Well, you're right about the Russians, but the Chinese understand that the term gray zone paralyzes Americans. We have no idea what to do because of our view of warfare being until the shooting starts. That it is we're not really at war. There's still hope of working something out.
00:13:51 GRANT NEWSHAMparalyzes Americans. We have no idea what to do because of our view of warfare being until the shooting starts. That it is we're not really at war. There's still hope of working
00:14:03 SPEAKER_03something out.
00:14:05 SPEAKER_02That has been our rote response for all these years, is to not get the Chinese mad, don't provoke them, and we have convinced ourselves that we have to have Chinese help with fill -in -the -blank, North Korea transnational crime, nuclear weapons proliferation, climate change, and therefore we cannot challenge the PRC because we won't get their cooperation. That's what we've effectively handcuffed ourselves, but when it comes to that so -called hybrid warfare, it's not all that It's not all that complicated if you recognize what it is and how it fits into China's behavior, its strategy. But you also would do well to attract from other directions where they're particularly vulnerable. And that is where you take advantage of the fact, for example, the Chinese currency is not freely convertible, which means that outside of China, nobody really wants Chinese money. It's like the script at a... It's like the script where you can use it to buy caramel corn and go on the rides.
00:14:05 SPEAKER_03has been our rote response for all these years, is to not get the Chinese mad, don't provoke them, and we have convinced ourselves that
00:14:14 JACK GAINEShave Chinese help with fill -in -the -blank, North Korea transnational crime, nuclear weapons
00:14:22 JACK GAINESclimate change, and therefore we cannot challenge the PRC because we won't get their cooperation. That's what we've effectively handcuffed ourselves, but when it comes to that so -called hybrid warfare, it's not all that It's not all that complicated if you recognize what it is and how it fits into
00:14:42 JACK GAINESits strategy. But you also would do well to attract from other directions where they're particularly vulnerable. And that is where you take advantage of the fact, for example, the Chinese currency is not freely convertible, which means that outside of China, nobody really wants Chinese money. It's like the script at a... It's like the script where you can use it to buy caramel corn and
00:15:06 SPEAKER_02That's it. Nobody wants it. So choke that off and China's got some real problems. Another is the just thoroughgoing corruption of China's ruling class. And most of them have wealth overseas, foreign bank accounts. foreign bank accounts, relatives with green cards, relatives with green cards, some operate businesses overseas. And this is illegal. And this is illegal.
00:15:08 JACK GAINESit. So choke that off and China's got some real problems. Another is the just thoroughgoing corruption of China's ruling class. And most
00:15:19 GRANT NEWSHAMoverseas, foreign bank accounts. foreign bank accounts, relatives with green cards, relatives with green cards, some operate businesses overseas. And this
00:15:31 SPEAKER_02And this is where that really scares them. Because in 2011 or 2012, New York Times and Bloomberg actually put out some good stories about the overseas wealth of China's top people, including Xi Jinping's family. I've never seen a reaction from the Chinese like that one. This bothered them.
00:15:33 JACK GAINESscares them. Because in 2011 or 2012, New
00:15:37 SPEAKER_03York Times and Bloomberg actually put out some good stories about the overseas wealth of China's top people, including Xi Jinping's family.
00:15:46 GRANT NEWSHAMI've never seen a reaction from the Chinese like that one.
00:15:53 SPEAKER_02More than anything else we've ever done. That's...
00:15:53 GRANT NEWSHAMthan anything
00:16:14 SPEAKER_02One way to do it. Another way to do it. That would be a tactical thing. Say you were to release, say, every Friday. Say at 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever. 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever.
00:16:16 JACK GAINESway to do it. That would be a tactical thing. Say you were to
00:16:19 SPEAKER_03release, say, every Friday. Say at 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever. 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever.
00:16:25 SPEAKER_02Which of the top 50 Chinese Communist Party officials? And make sure it reached everywhere in China. The thing that the public really hates is this corruption. And by the top dogs. And that is something that really bothers them. And you note that the Chinese leadership is very willing to have the average Chinese citizen absorb any amount of punishment. And they even talk about it.
00:16:27 SPEAKER_03Chinese Communist Party officials? And make sure it
00:16:29 GRANT NEWSHAMreached everywhere in China. The thing that the public really hates is this corruption. And by the top dogs.
00:16:38 JACK GAINESis something that really bothers them. And you note that the Chinese leadership is very willing to have the average Chinese citizen
00:16:49 JACK GAINESthey even talk about it.
00:16:51 SPEAKER_02But when it's personal, then they see it very differently. And this is one of the few ways to really make it personal for them is to capitalize on this corruption. So when we talk about... Dealing with Gray's own operations, we're probably not going to be all that successful. Because they have more ships, they can be in more places.
00:16:51 JACK GAINESwhen it's personal, then they see it very differently. And this is one of the few ways to really make it personal for them is to capitalize on this corruption. So when we talk about... Dealing with Gray's own operations, we're probably not going to be all that successful. Because they have more ships, they can be in more places.
00:17:14 SPEAKER_02But expose that. They can do that. Have we made a concerted effort to expose Chinese bribery, the illicit payments, the corruption that they put into everywhere they go? Everywhere there's a Chinese presence, you have corruption of the society, the political class as well. And do we ever target that? Do we consider it a priority effort? I don't even think we consider it an effort at all. Exposure is the one thing that has a huge effect. This is why investigative journalists get big. It's why like Irish. gangsters try to murder them in Malta they get blown up because they're effective because they're effective which is the thing that makes it very hard for corruption to work and that's where I think
00:17:15 JACK GAINEScan do that. Have we made a concerted effort to expose Chinese bribery, the illicit payments, the corruption that they put into everywhere they go? Everywhere there's a Chinese presence, you have corruption of the society, the political class as well. And do we ever target that? Do we consider it a priority effort? I don't even think we consider it an effort at all. Exposure is the one thing that has a huge effect. This is why investigative journalists
00:17:44 SPEAKER_03get big. It's why like Irish. gangsters try to murder them in Malta they get blown up because they're effective because they're effective which
00:17:52 SPEAKER_02is the thing that makes it very hard for corruption to work and that's where I think We have some real opportunities to make it very clear what's being done. And this is something that, if you expose it, you can really capitalize on it. Just make it too hard to do this. And it also gives oxygen to the honest people in a country. It gives them something to work with. It gives them something to work with. To take on these repressive regimes, these corrupt regimes, these corrupt regimes, administrations. And get rid of them and replace them with honest people. I've never met anywhere, anywhere I've been. Over the years. Where people like to be cheaters. Where people like to be cheaters. Where they like their leaders to be corrupt. I just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. I just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. It's just nothing you can do. But it's just nothing you can do. It really has an effect. And that's where I think government for sources could be effectively devoted. And particularly once you get local reporters in on it. Once you get the local. Honest locals in on it. Honest locals in on it. And that's where I think we could be very effective. Corruption, as you've mentioned, that really is the grease to everything the Chinese communists do globally. Take it away and then take away their access to dollars, convertible currency. And they've really got some problems. But they have played their hand very well today. But in some ways it's a house of cards. I don't think it's that hard to take on. But the longer you wait, the harder it gets.
00:17:52 SPEAKER_03is the thing that makes it
00:17:54 JACK GAINEScorruption to work and that's where I think We have some real opportunities to make it very clear what's being done. And this is something that, if you expose it, you can really capitalize on it. Just make it too hard to do this. And it also gives oxygen to the honest people in a country. It
00:18:16 JACK GAINESto work with. To take on these repressive regimes, these corrupt regimes, these corrupt regimes,
00:18:23 JACK GAINESthem with honest people. I've never met anywhere, anywhere I've been. Over the years. Where
00:18:32 JACK GAINESI just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. I just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. It's just nothing you can do. But it's just nothing you can do. It really has an effect. And that's where I think government for sources could be effectively devoted. And particularly once you
00:18:46 GRANT NEWSHAMreporters in on it. Once you get the local. Honest locals in on it. Honest locals in on it. And that's where I think we could be very effective.
00:18:56 JACK GAINESCorruption, as you've mentioned, that really is the grease to everything the Chinese communists do globally. Take it away and then take away their access to dollars, convertible currency. And they've really got some
00:19:12 JACK GAINEStoday. But in some ways it's a house of cards. I don't think it's that hard to take on. But the longer you wait, the harder it
00:19:28 SPEAKER_02In regards to U .S. policy, in policy, there really is a... a desire that the United States stays around in Asia, that maintains its military might, and is able to effectively safeguard what you call freedom consensual government. Because if you go around the region, nobody wants to be dominated by the PRC. But they do have a huge advantage, particularly economically, that they're seen by leaders and business people in a lot of these countries. That's really the source of... some wealth, some prosperity. And we would do well, for example, to see the fight as just as much an economic one as a military one. Because we could build up our military, rebuild it, and we could have 800 ships in the Navy, and still lose. If we don't fight on these other fronts, we don't want you here because we're doing too much business with China. And that's where the U .S., along with its friends, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Indians, the Australians, we would do well to operate together more and to see the economic front and the political warfare fronts as a priority effort as much, if not more, than the military.
00:19:30 SPEAKER_03in policy, there
00:19:31 JACK GAINESreally is a... a desire that the United States stays around in Asia, that maintains its military might, and is able to
00:19:45 JACK GAINESBecause if you go around the region, nobody wants to be dominated by the PRC. But they do have a huge advantage, particularly economically, that they're seen by leaders and business people in a lot of these countries. That's really the source of... some wealth, some prosperity. And we would do well, for example, to see the fight as just as much an economic
00:20:09 GRANT NEWSHAMone as a military one. Because we could build up our military, rebuild it, and we could have 800 ships in the Navy, and still lose. If we don't
00:20:19 JACK GAINESon these other fronts, we don't want you here because we're doing too much business with China. And that's where the U .S., along with its friends, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Indians, the Australians,
00:20:30 GRANT NEWSHAMwe would do well to operate together more and to see the economic front and the political warfare fronts as a priority effort as much, if not
00:20:40 JACK GAINESmore, than the
00:20:45 SPEAKER_02They have a role to play if they're properly harnessed. But you do know that these days you don't see the Yankee trader that used to exist. You'd run to Americans everywhere trying to sell something to do business. Not so much these days. And we've almost ceded the far -flung part to the world. Because, well, the return on investment isn't enough. That's not an attractive enough proposition. Well, then let's make it one. Plus, you do have, say, the Japanese, the Indians, who are much better at operating in these places, to put it together into a coherent plan. Understand what it is, political warfare, and not just block the Chinese political warfare effort, but actually have our own campaign. And it really is worth doing some homework, I think, for a lot of people into what political warfare is. One sees the opportunities, but it takes a certain type of person who's good at it. versus a civil affairs guy. Versus a civil affairs guy. He's going to see different... He's going to see parts of the battlefield in a different way. Yes, sometimes you want the tank. But then there's this other part of it all. That is almost like a liberal arts test. Here you have to figure out the motivations for things. You have to figure out how a society works. And then how do you appeal to it using the things that are parts of political warfare? And this is where you can really make some mileage. You've got to have both. Make no mistake. If you're not able to destroy things and kill people, the civil affairs part isn't going to get you very far. But combine the two, and then you've really got something that's very hard to take on if you're the bad guys. We talk about defending Taiwan, and how important it is, and it is, I think, indispensable, that China does not take Taiwan and enslave 23 million people. If they did that...
00:20:47 JACK GAINESthey're properly harnessed. But you do know that these days you don't see the Yankee trader that used to exist. You'd run to Americans everywhere trying to sell something to do business. Not
00:20:59 SPEAKER_03so much these days. And we've almost ceded the far -flung part to the world. Because, well, the return on investment isn't enough. That's not an attractive enough proposition. Well, then let's
00:21:10 GRANT NEWSHAMmake it one. Plus, you do have, say, the Japanese, the Indians, who are much better at operating in these places, to put it together into a coherent plan. Understand what it
00:21:20 JACK GAINESis, political warfare, and not just block the Chinese political warfare effort, but actually have our own campaign. And it really is worth doing some homework, I think, for a lot of people into what political warfare is. One sees the opportunities, but it takes a certain type of person who's good at it. versus a civil affairs guy. Versus a civil affairs guy. He's going to see different... He's going to see parts of the battlefield in a different way.
00:21:50 SPEAKER_03Yes, sometimes you want the tank. But then there's this other part of it all. That is almost like a liberal arts test. Here you have to figure
00:22:00 JACK GAINESfor things. You have to figure out how a society works. And then how do you appeal to it using the things that are parts of political warfare?
00:22:10 JACK GAINESmake some mileage. You've got to have both. Make no mistake. If you're not able to destroy things and kill people, the civil affairs part isn't going to get you very far. But combine the two, and then you've really got something that's very hard to take on if you're the bad guys. We talk about defending Taiwan, and how important it is, and it is, I think, indispensable,
00:22:32 GRANT NEWSHAMthat China does not take Taiwan and enslave 23 million people. If they did that...
00:22:39 SPEAKER_02Asia would turn red overnight, as every country tried to cut the best deal they could. No country anywhere on Earth would have much confidence in American promises that will protect them. But one of the ways to actually defend Taiwan is, yes, they could maybe use F -35s and long -range missiles and smart pines, etc. You do have to have all of this stuff. Is it enough,
00:22:39 GRANT NEWSHAMwould turn red overnight, as every country tried
00:22:42 SPEAKER_03to cut the best deal they could. No country anywhere
00:22:46 JACK GAINESon Earth would have much confidence in American promises that will protect them. But one of the ways to actually defend
00:22:51 GRANT NEWSHAMTaiwan is, yes, they could maybe use F -35s and long -range missiles and smart pines, etc. You do have to have all of this stuff. Is it enough, even? Particularly if the other side says, okay, we'll absorb whatever you can send at us, but you're finished. But one of the ways that... But one of the ways is to give them a free trade agreement to improve their economy to the point that the government felt like it had money to spend on defense.
00:23:02 SPEAKER_02Particularly if the other side says, okay, we'll absorb whatever you can send at us, but you're finished. But one of the ways that... But one of the ways is to give them a free trade agreement to improve their economy to the point that the government felt like it had money to spend on defense. You get a certain confidence in the entire society when they're more prosperous. Salaries are very low in Taiwan. Make it so people feel like they've got more money. Can they can buy a house? Can they can buy a condominium? build up the economy and that has a ripple effect throughout the society and on their military itself. And yet we didn't do that. And I think that's where we should apply some effort.
00:23:11 JACK GAINESgive them a free trade agreement to
00:23:16 JACK GAINESpoint that the government felt like it had money to spend on defense. You get a certain confidence in the entire society when they're more prosperous. Salaries are very low in Taiwan. Make it so people feel like they've got more money. Can they can buy a house? Can they can buy a condominium?
00:23:35 JACK GAINESthe economy and that has a ripple effect throughout the society and on their military itself. And yet we didn't do that. And I think that's where we should apply some
00:24:25 SPEAKER_02I think you're right. And it's essential that we start to understand. You look at much of the debate about us in China. What happens when the two forces go at each other? And that's almost like... Going up behind the Waffle House. Going up behind the Waffle House. To see who's the toughest guy in Prince William County. To see who's the toughest guy in Prince William County. Out back. But think of all the things that go into whether or not the two hoodlums. There's all sorts of reasons why. No, there may not.
00:24:27 JACK GAINESessential that we start to understand.
00:24:32 JACK GAINESus in China.
00:24:33 SPEAKER_03What happens when the two forces go at each other? And that's almost like... Going up behind the Waffle House. Going up behind the Waffle
00:24:43 JACK GAINESHouse. To see who's the toughest guy in Prince William County. To see
00:24:52 JACK GAINESwhether or not the two hoodlums.
00:24:56 JACK GAINESof reasons why. No, there may not.
00:24:59 SPEAKER_02Or that will affect the outcome, actually. None of them have to do with force on force. And that's so much of our debate on the US -China military problem. Is that a problem? Would our Navy take on theirs? Is there long -range missiles outrange ours? Yes, it's important. Make no mistake. Yes, it's important. Make no mistake. It's only one part of the battle. It's only one part of the battle. And it's the last part.
00:25:02 JACK GAINESof them have to do with force on force. And that's so much of our debate on the US -China military problem. Is that a problem? Would our Navy take on theirs? Is there long -range missiles outrange ours? Yes, it's important. Make no mistake. Yes, it's
00:25:21 JACK GAINESof the battle. And it's the last part.
00:25:22 SPEAKER_02And if you look at the other part, it's a political warfare. And every part of that, then you have the chance, one, not to lose. You can actually shape things to your advantage. But if you don't, and the other guy is the only one playing that, well, you're likely to find yourself at 2 a .m. outside the Waffle House, and he's actually ready. We talk about bases.
00:25:22 JACK GAINESif you look at the other part, it's a political warfare. And every part of that, then you have the chance, one, not to lose. You can actually shape things to your advantage. But if you don't, and the other guy is the only one playing that, well, you're likely to find yourself at 2 a .m. outside the Waffle House, and he's actually ready. We talk about bases.
00:25:45 SPEAKER_02We talk about bases. Well, what if we don't have the access because Chinese political warfare has made us so the locals won't let us into a place? They won't let us operate.
00:25:45 JACK GAINEStalk about bases. Well, what if we don't have the access because Chinese political warfare has made us so the locals won't let us into a place?
00:25:53 GRANT NEWSHAMThey won't let us operate.
00:25:55 SPEAKER_02They won't let us operate. Oh, that's a pretty good example. Is that a pretty good example? One hoodlum can't get a ride to the awful house, but the other one can. So we've really got to start thinking about these things from a much broader perspective. And it's unfortunate that we're reinventing the wheel here. But the game's not over. It may be the bottom of the 7th and we're down by 6th. We're the old Washington Senators. We're the old Washington Senators. and debate how far we're behind. At the end of the day, we've got a good hand to play. I hope we start playing it.
00:25:58 JACK GAINESIs that a pretty good example? One hoodlum can't get a ride to the awful house, but the other
00:26:08 JACK GAINESthinking about these things from a much
00:26:15 JACK GAINESthe wheel here.
00:26:18 JACK GAINESIt may be the bottom of the 7th and we're down by 6th. We're the old Washington Senators. We're the old Washington Senators. and debate how far we're behind. At the end of the day, we've got a good hand to play. I hope we start playing it.
00:26:35 SPEAKER_02Glad to be here. Thank you. Glad to be here. Thank you.
00:26:40 JACK GAINESThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at [email protected]. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Please welcome Grant Newsham, retired marine colonel and author of When China Attacks, A Warning to America.
Grant came on the show to discuss the state of the Japan Defense Forces and the PRC threat.
This is a two-part episode.
Grant's biography: https://centerforsecuritypolicy.org/author/grant-newsham/Book link: https://www.regnery.com/9781684513659/when-china-attacks/A recent article: https://andmagazine.substack.com/p/the-us-in-the-pacific-getting-the?utm_source=substack&publication_id=746580&post_id=151553726&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&utm_campaign=email-share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&r=ercjf&triedRedirect=true
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to the site Cool Jazz Hot Bossa for the sample of Cool Jazz Hot Bossa. (59:00).Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWUj2NYDYQ
---
Transcript: (Part I)
00:00:05 JACK GAINESWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. Or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes. Please welcome Grant Newsham, retired Marine Colonel and author of When China Attacks, A Warning to America. Grant came on the show to discuss the state of the Japan Defense Forces and the PRC threat. This is the first of a two-part episode, so let's get started.
00:00:56 GRANT NEWSHAMI was effectively MarforPak's guy in Asia for a number of years. which worked well in both directions. So I was obviously in Japan, but also did a lot of work for them throughout the region, Southeast Asia as well, Taiwan even, which was a lot of fun.
00:01:13 JACK GAINESYeah. And you've become a foreign policy advocate in the area.
00:01:16 GRANT NEWSHAMYeah. At some point, maybe seven or eight years ago, figured I'd actually done enough stuff to maybe have a few ideas. So I started writing and speak a lot as well. So I guess I'm part of the commentariat. But I seem to write about once a week some topic related to often Asian defense, but sometimes economics, politics, sometimes organized crime. And I do get invited to speak here and there and seem to get a number of television or radio interviews as well. That's really cool. I didn't say I get invited to good things, but I do get the occasional invitation. I used to think it was because I had such insight. Someone told me not all that long ago that actually, if you'll say yes to an interview, you're likely to get more of them. Because the people who book them, they just want to get somebody on. And I thought it was because of my particular wisdom.
00:02:07 JACK GAINESof my particular wisdom.
00:02:09 GRANT NEWSHAMI'm joking a little bit. But obviously, you must have something useful to say. But it is funny. There's one place in Singapore that calls me a lot. It's like their CNN. And they've been calling me. Probably eight years at least, or almost every time, I'll tell the presenters that basically they don't know what they're talking about. And I always think, well, this is the last one, but they keep calling me up. They mislike you because you're the contrarian.
00:02:34 JACK GAINESmislike you because you're the contrarian.
00:02:36 GRANT NEWSHAMOh, I can blame things in a way that sort of suits broadcast and that sort of regular people can understand, you know,
00:02:42 GRANT NEWSHAMthat sort of regular people can understand, you know, being a regular person myself.
00:02:47 JACK GAINESYeah, you learn to disagree without offending.
00:02:49 GRANT NEWSHAMUsually. And it's always sort of a relief, actually, when you can have a different look at things.
00:02:56 JACK GAINESThat's good. I always thought you were going to say it is a relief sometimes when you just peel the coat off and then yell at them.
00:03:02 GRANT NEWSHAMThe facts speak for themselves. Right. And if it's a presenter, their role is different, and they will generally not have the substantive knowledge that most of the people on the show will have. Right. And so much of what I have to say is often not... in line with accepted wisdom, particularly when it comes to Japan. Sure. So it's often that I'll have to present a different take on things, but they don't seem to be offended.
00:03:27 JACK GAINESRight. You mostly talk about Japan in its current defense fashion or in its foreign policy actions.
00:03:33 GRANT NEWSHAMA lot of that because people have a perception of Japan, for example, as a pacifist country. It cannot fight. It's peace loving. Right. etc. They have a nuclear allergy. You know, just the idea of nuclear weapons in Japan is out of the question. You often hear, well, their constitution won't let them fight. And none of those things are actually true. But it's the received wisdom. It's what people think. And when you simply point out the realities of Japan, that ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a country just like every other. And that the stereotypes about it really aren't correct when it comes to defense security. In fact, they use that the Constitution won't let them have a military. You probably heard it. Yeah. That's the idea. And they don't even call it a military. But the fact is they've got a military, which, according to some ratings, is the fifth most powerful in the world. It depends on how you calculate it, of course. But they call it something else. And what is the actual distinction between offensive and defensive weapons?
00:04:35 JACK GAINESIt's usually the strike space. If it's inside your own country defending, then it's a defense space. Once you go out and start taking out other people's cities and moving forces in.
00:04:44 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, for example, they don't have much what you call power projection capability very far off their borders. But they do have a submarine fleet, say over 20 submarines. There's no reason you couldn't send them to the coast of China and start sinking ships.
00:04:59 JACK GAINESTrue.
00:05:00 GRANT NEWSHAMThey've got F -16s. You can put long -range missiles on them and you can fly out of ways and cause people a lot of trouble. But their military really, I would say, is not so good at offense. It's not so good at defense either. And that's something that comes as a surprise to a lot of people.
00:05:15 JACK GAINESWell, do they exercise defense and offense?
00:05:18 GRANT NEWSHAMOh, they have exercises, training, and they put on a pretty good show, particularly when they have visitors come. But they really, until very recently, and even now, they can't do joint operations, which means the air, sea, and ground forces. can't operate together. In fact, they don't even have a radio with which they can communicate easily. They have to jury -rig some relations, these connections. And that's something most people don't understand, because you look at it on paper. Japan has 250 ,000 people in its military, and it's got ships, aircraft, all of it modern and good stuff. 150 ,000 people in its ground self -defense force, their army. But it's not even the sum of its whole. If you imagine each of your limbs, your arms and your legs, each doing whatever it wants without the coordinating function provided by a brain.
00:06:10 JACK GAINESSounds like me dancing.
00:06:12 GRANT NEWSHAMIt would be, yeah. I think that I can picture that, whereas I'm more of an Arthur Murray kind of guy. But it's like that. And nobody can believe that because they think, well, this is the Japanese. It's this advanced modern country, big military, the rich country. And I mean, they can't even do these simple things. Right. The short answer is no, except in some limited circumstances. After 60 years of the U .S.-Japan defense relationship, 80 years after World War II, they still cannot do some of the basic things that a military needs to do, or do them very well, put it that way. But they do train, they exercise, the personnel quality is excellent. You know, we tend to say, well, we've got Japan as our ally, Japan has a military. But the reality is that the U .S. and Japanese forces cannot work very well together. There's one exception, and that's the two navies. The U .S. Navy and the Japanese Navy, called the Maritime Self -Defense Force, they actually do work well. And they show what's doable.
00:07:15 JACK GAINESThey probably do dynamic exercises as well as structured ones, so they have to change, have to practice new orders and maneuvers.
00:07:22 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, the nature of naval operations is you can go out... into the sea, and you have more freedom to actually do stuff. But part of it actually was when Admiral Arleigh Burke, who was later chief of naval operations for many years, he was in charge in Japan. He basically laid down the ground rules, which was that the American Navy was going to treat the Japanese like friends, like allies. And that set the tone for everything. So they had a more relationship of equals, people who wanted to operate together. And that is why they have a good relationship today. in my opinion. So as a result, after all these decades, the two militaries are not really very good at operating together. There's no joint headquarters. There never has been in Japan. At best, they've operated in isolation. Do they recognize they don't have a joint access? Oh, they know. The Japanese military knows this. And US Indo -PACOM has not pushed the issue. And then you had... The State Department side, on the civilian side, people saying, well, if we ask the Japanese to get better at defense matters, well, they'll get angry. And if they do, then the Chinese will be mad. So you have the U .S. on the U .S. side. We're thinking of at least 10 reasons why Japan cannot improve its defenses. That's changed enough in recent years. But you see how many decades we've lost.
00:08:51 JACK GAINESRight. I can see part of what the State Department is saying in that a lot of those countries along the Asian coast were under Japanese rule during World War II. They're concerned that by showing favor and coordinating with them in defense might offend places like the Philippines or Korea. It is a concern to be weighed, but I don't know how much weight you would put to it.
00:09:14 GRANT NEWSHAMI wouldn't give it hardly any. With the Japanese, when you actually think about it, I would say within... 30 years of the end of the war, but certainly today, and for the last at least 20 years ago. The new century. Even before that. The Japanese and World War II is not really an issue in almost all of Asia. The Chinese, of course... Play it up. That's a good way to put it. Of course, they do remember what the Japanese did, and it was barbaric. Although the Chinese Communist Party afterwards killed 50 million Chinese in peacetime and good weather, which the Imperial Japanese Army couldn't have dreamed of doing. But World War II is an issue in China. Korea as well, the relationship is dicey. Up to a point. I mean, little old ladies go and sit in front of the embassy still.
00:10:05 JACK GAINESthe embassy still.
00:10:06 GRANT NEWSHAMThere are, and then you just had a South Korean amphibious ship come to Yokosuka in Tokyo on a visit. In Korea, there's a fundamental sort of suspicion of the Japanese. Sometimes it is a real dislike. But most people, it's not a big issue. But except for those two countries, you go down the list in Asia, and there is no after effect of World War II. I find the Filipinos get along very well with the Japanese. The Indonesians do. They, in fact, see the Japanese as being the people who freed them from the colonial yoke. Okay. The Malays, they actually didn't have that bad a time during the occupation. The Chinese in Malaysia did. So the Malaysians don't have any really hard feelings against the Japanese. Taiwan, same thing. They've got a very good relationship. And then there's one plus billion Indians who actually have an excellent relationship with Japan and see Japan as real friends and vice versa. So you're starting to get a good chunk of Asia, which, as you can see, actually sees Japan as a good country, useful economically. It's been very generous. And they like to see a Japanese military that's strong enough, allied with the United States, able to deal with China.
00:11:27 JACK GAINESRight. And why would we have such a different balance as we do with Germany and Europe? Because no one's questioning this in Holland or in France. That's just another country. They freely trade, they freely access each other. So maybe mindset just needs to shift to say the reform of Japan is just like Germany, and we need to start treating them and partner nations the same and start advocating for a joint staff.
00:11:52 GRANT NEWSHAMAnd you could do that in an afternoon, but the Japanese will not speak up for themselves. And an old New York Times reporter, Richard Halloran, I remember him telling me once that all the people he ever dealt with in the world... The Japanese were the worst at explaining themselves. And there's a reticence which slows them down. But also the Americans are afraid to tell them what we need. And that is a huge problem, because if we don't tell them, the Japanese are not blind readers, and they won't do what we think we'd like them to do, but we're afraid to ask. And in fact, one of the Japanese prime ministers in 1970, so 50 -some years ago, He gave some very good advice to the Americans, and it was at the time the Americans were trying to put an aircraft carrier into Yokosuka, the naval base near Tokyo. They wanted to assign it there permanently. And the U .S. side was thinking of excuses why it was too hard for the Japanese. They'll cause political difficulties. The Japanese have an election coming up. The timing just isn't right. And finally, the Japanese side sent a message to the Americans saying, tell us what you need. And don't back down. And they said it out of exasperation, really. And it was the best advice the Americans have ever been given. And we've refused to follow it ever since then. And really, it's almost a cultural trait, sort of a Confucian system. They actually are happy to have experts tell them what they ought to do. Sure. Whereas we are more of the Socratic method. And it doesn't, it just doesn't work. That's why after all these years, the Americans and the Japanese forces, except for the navies, And except for missile defense, we really don't operate together anywhere near where we need to be. We're not even close. And another very interesting fact a lot of people don't know is the Japanese military missed its recruitment targets by about 50 % last year. 5 -0?
00:13:50 JACK GAINES-0?
00:13:50 GRANT NEWSHAM5 -0. And it routinely misses them by 20 -25%. So this, you can see, is a problem. It's now an older force, doesn't have enough people. In order to fulfill its missions, it would probably have to be twice as big, both personnel -wise and in terms of ships and hardware. Its war stocks are basically non -existent, doesn't know anything really about casualty care, combat casualty replacements, logistics.
00:14:20 JACK GAINESWell, if the media looks down on it and the political class looks down on it, it's not going to get a lot of positivity in the public mindset. So that's got to be part of it. It's not a vote -getter to push for a strong defense.
00:14:31 GRANT NEWSHAMvote -getter to push for a strong defense. I mean, if you're a politician, no one's going to say, he's the defense guy, let's give him our vote. But people vote for other reasons. But you do get used to, after that horrific experience in World War II, that for decades people didn't want to really think about defense, and they were glad to have the Americans around to handle it, and particularly when it seemed like there wasn't any real threat anywhere. People were happy with that, and even the U .S. side. didn't mind it as well. But I'd say it should have started to change at least 20 years ago. And it didn't until maybe four or five years ago. Well,
00:15:10 JACK GAINESwhen did the risk indicators really start popping up with China?
00:15:14 GRANT NEWSHAMI think by... It can't be back when Nixon went.
00:15:15 JACK GAINESIt can't be back when Nixon went. Well, it should have,
00:15:16 GRANT NEWSHAMit should have, you know, I think. But about 2005 is when it was obvious what was coming.
00:15:19 JACK GAINESBut about
00:15:21 GRANT NEWSHAMwhen it was obvious what was coming. And even before that, if you knew what to look for. But as I said, some of us... We knew what needed done and what the problems were. And there were Japanese who did too. And that's why when we put together their amphibious force, it was sort of an effort to address the shortcomings in Japan's self -defense force. Also to improve the overall U .S.-Japan relationship because it was so imbalanced. Right. Where the Japanese weren't doing anything near enough to defend themselves. And that over time creates a lot of friction in a relationship. So we were trying to address that with the amphibious force, and that was 2011, which we were pretty successful at that because we didn't ask permission from anybody. I was going to say, if you were successful,
00:16:10 JACK GAINESdid you get fired?
00:16:11 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, it's not that people didn't try.
00:16:11 JACK GAINESWell, it's not that people didn't try. Sorry, that was sarcastic. But I was a reservist, so they couldn't quite get a bead on me.
00:16:15 GRANT NEWSHAMI was a reservist, so they couldn't quite get a bead on me. Yeah. And didn't quite know what we were doing. And also you had people like General Gregson, who was then at... Department of Defense, who had been in Japan many years, and he knew the importance of it all. So he would provide some cover. But the real success there was because the Japanese side took the ideas and ran with it. And the Americans provided some cover and some know -how and some advice. But it was the Japanese who did that. Once the Japanese took on the mission, well, what are the Americans going to say? But I was even told that at Indo -PACOM, that there were people who gotten wind of this and were very much opposed because the idea that Japanese having an amphibious force was provocative. Not just provocative, but it was going to cause the Japanese to go on the rampage again, like in 1941. I'm not making this up.
00:17:11 JACK GAINESSo when Germany starts building the Leopard 2, were they expected to go on a rampage too?
00:17:17 GRANT NEWSHAMNo, those are Europeans. Oh, okay. You know how the Europeans are okay.
00:17:19 JACK GAINESokay. You know
00:17:21 GRANT NEWSHAMBut the fact that Germans have been allowed back into polite society. tells you something, and the Japanese are just as deserving of it as well.
00:17:30 JACK GAINESDid you see the movie Godzilla Minus One? No. It's an interesting portrayal of post -World War II Japan. And Godzilla, which is this giant monster, comes out of the sea, tears up Japan, and has an atomic breath that shoots off nuclear explosions, which sounds a lot like the United States in a mythological way. One thing that... the show did that was interesting is it kind of engaged post -military era and had talked about it. And it seemed like it was trying to reconcile the past with now and build out a notion that the military is okay, that after the war, there were good things that happened and that we should embrace a military in the future. So there might be some societal impulses out there that are promoting and supporting a more built -up military in Japan.
00:18:24 GRANT NEWSHAMWell, you're actually right. The public at large has always been pretty supportive of the military. For example, when they have open base days, when they put on so -called firepower demonstrations, which is like an exercise you can watch where they shoot off stuff, that they're always oversubscribed. And people just pour into these things because they're interested. And the central government, or say the ruling class, are the ones who are gun -shy or... I'm really hesitant, but the public at large, you know, when you ask them, you know, should Japan have a normal military? The replies to that are like 85%. Well, yes, of course. And I think they would be horrified if they knew the actual state of the Japanese military. I mentioned this to a Japanese politician last year, and he was horrified at the idea. And the public as well would have a similar reaction. Regular Japanese people say they have a pretty good understanding of what Japan needs to do to defend itself and of the importance of having a national defense, but the government doesn't explain it very well. When they do, the reaction, there's a Japanese expression, it's called like, it's atarimae. And it means like, well, yeah. It's like, duh.
00:19:42 JACK GAINESAbnautually. And that's what it means.
00:19:42 GRANT NEWSHAMAnd that's what it means. Should Japan have a good defense? Atarimae. And yeah, what's the question here? But if you ask that question in the political world, then you'll get all sorts of emming and hawing. They wanted nothing of that. By the late 70s, certainly by the 90s, that they sort of outlived that. But it was comfortable to continue with it, particularly if you're the government, because you don't have to spend money on defense. And the Americans are covering that. So it was as if the Americans were giving. I'd say at least $50 billion a year in free defense coverage, at least, probably more. And, you know, if you're a government, you think, well, why should we do anything different? And so they got used to that. We got used to it. And then at some point, the friction builds up where you just can't do that. And the Japanese themselves start to be resentful.
00:20:37 JACK GAINESRight. Keeping them handicapped, probably.
00:20:40 GRANT NEWSHAMYeah. You know, they're not letting us be self -fulfilled. I think that's sort of the marriage counselor's analysis. And so that imbalance was such that it was creating huge problems in the relationship. But the defense relationship, you know, pointing out, well, you know, you guys really aren't very good, except for the Navy. You know, and we can't work with you very well, except for the Navies. And as a result, that's why we are where we are today. By now, if we had a more sort of capable U .S.-Japan defense relationship, where the two services could... operate together, and we're conducting a joint defense of Japan and the surrounding areas, which includes, say, to Taiwan even, that that would have, I think, deterred a lot of the problems that we're having. But by pretending everything was okay, we've gotten ourselves in a position where we now face a real threat out there. And we're trying to make up for lost time. And I don't know. And I don't know which side I would bet on. I'd bet on ours because I'm an American. But that's how out of whack it has gotten. It used to be maybe till 20 years ago, we were in pretty good shape. But you can see that advantage eroding. And nowadays, depending on how a fight were to take place, if it does take place, it would be less of a sure thing than it once was. And that's, I think, putting it very nicely.
00:22:04 JACK GAINESWell, tell me about the threat.
00:22:05 GRANT NEWSHAMWhat are you seeing? It's China. led by the Chinese Communist Party.
(Part II)
00:00:02 JACK GAINESWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes. Please welcome back Grant Newsham, retired Marine colonel and author of When China Attacks, A Warning to America. Grant came on the show to discuss the state of the Japanese defense forces and the PRC threat. This is the second in a two-part episode, so let's get started.
00:00:56 SPEAKER_02It's China. led by the Chinese Communist Party. They built up a military which is just gradually but steadily expanding its reach and its coverage. And it is compared to, say, 2020, now instead of just being able to operate a little bit off their coast, they can reach Guam, Hawaii, and onwards. The Chinese military doesn't tend to develop into a force able to operate worldwide just like the U .S. can. And their ship numbers. They've got more than we do. Something like 350 versus our 290.
00:00:58 JACK GAINESthe Chinese Communist Party.
00:01:06 JACK GAINESits reach
00:01:11 JACK GAINESsay, 2020, now instead of just being able to operate a little bit
00:01:15 GRANT NEWSHAMoff their coast, they can reach Guam, Hawaii, and onwards. The Chinese military doesn't tend to develop into a force able to operate worldwide just
00:01:25 JACK GAINESlike the U .S. can. And their ship numbers. They've got more than we do. Something like 350 versus our
00:01:37 SPEAKER_02Well, fortunately, in terms of quality, they're pretty good. And they know what they need to do, and they're getting better. For some things like carrier operations, they're not at our level yet. But if you look at the speed at which they have developed, they're in pretty good shape. But let's just say the South China Sea, which is one and a half times the size of the Mediterranean. Whenever U .S. ships go in there, and we do publicize our transits and operations and exercises, for every ship we put in there, For every ship we put in, the Chinese can match it with at least 10. And that doesn't include ground -based and air -launched anti -ship missiles, for example. So if the Chinese pick their spot,
00:01:39 JACK GAINESthey're pretty good. And they know what they need to do, and they're getting better. For some things like carrier operations, they're not at our level yet. But if you look at the speed at which they have developed, they're in pretty good shape. But let's just say the South China Sea, which is one and a half times the size of the Mediterranean.
00:02:00 JACK GAINESand we do publicize our transits and operations and exercises, for every ship we put in there, For every ship we put in, the Chinese can match it with at least 10. And that doesn't include ground -based and air -launched anti -ship missiles, for example.
00:02:16 SPEAKER_02if the Chinese pick their spot, pick their timing, I wouldn't want to be the destroyer skipper who's got 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him. 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him. And he's got eight seconds to figure out what to do. The point is they have had de facto control of the South China Sea since about seven, eight years ago. And yes, we can go in there. But once we're gone, the Chinese close back up and they've pretty much got it. Beyond that, it's harder for them, but they're steadily expanding their capability to conduct operations. It's a military that has its problems, like every military, but they are trying to correct them. They are building a military which they want to be able to defeat a country that has aircraft carriers, which is us. In many respects, they are our equals. Have you ever heard a Korean War veteran who said he wanted to fight the Chinese again? And these were Chinese. These was the Chinese of 1950s. It's a very different place today. And I'm not saying that they can't be defeated, but I'm not saying that they can't be defeated. An adversary that could give us a lot of trouble. When their intentions are to first dominate regionally and locally, and then push that farther afield to all the Pacific and beyond. And they're setting up the infrastructure worldwide with ports and airfields to do that. They're investing in long -range transports, these naval replenishment ships that you need to be able to operate the way we do, and that's their mission. And we have pretended until about 2017 that this wasn't the case. In fact, you couldn't even say China was an adversary. And guys who did, like Captain James Fennell, who was the head of intelligence at Pack Fleet. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. The then administration hated him and got rid of him. And that's how bad it was. And I saw this all firsthand. Experience some of it, not as bad as Captain Fennell did. So we've allowed them to build up into a military that we had better take very seriously. And the Chinese do see this as a tool for their...
00:02:16 JACK GAINESif the
00:02:17 SPEAKER_03Chinese pick their spot, pick their timing, I wouldn't want to be the destroyer skipper who's got 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him. 20 anti -ship missiles coming at him.
00:02:28 JACK GAINESfigure out what to do. The point is they have had de facto control of the South China Sea since about seven, eight years ago.
00:02:39 JACK GAINESwe're gone, the Chinese close back up and they've pretty much got it. Beyond that, it's
00:02:45 SPEAKER_03but they're steadily expanding their capability to conduct operations. It's a military that has its problems, like every military, but they are trying to correct them. They are
00:02:55 JACK GAINESa military which they want to be able to defeat a country that has aircraft carriers, which is us. In many respects,
00:03:03 JACK GAINESour equals. Have you ever heard a Korean War veteran who said he wanted to fight the Chinese again? And these were Chinese. These was the Chinese of 1950s. It's a very different place today. And I'm not saying that they can't be defeated, but I'm not saying that they can't
00:03:22 JACK GAINESa lot of trouble. When their intentions are to first dominate regionally and locally, and then push that farther afield to all the Pacific and beyond. And they're setting up the infrastructure worldwide with ports and airfields to do that. They're investing in long -range transports, these naval replenishment ships that you need to be able to operate the way we do, and that's their mission. And we have pretended
00:03:50 SPEAKER_03until about 2017
00:03:51 GRANT NEWSHAMthat this wasn't the case. In fact, you couldn't even say China was an adversary. And guys who did, like Captain James Fennell,
00:04:01 JACK GAINESwho was the head of intelligence at Pack Fleet. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. He was cashier. He was forced to retire. The then administration hated him and got rid of him. And that's how bad it was. And I saw this all firsthand. Experience some of it, not as bad as Captain Fennell did. So we've allowed them to build up into a military that we had better take very seriously. And the Chinese do see this as a tool for
00:04:30 SPEAKER_02The idea is if you have a powerful military, well, that's when you can lean on people. That's when you can intimidate people. You can dominate them. And they're happy with the psychological domination, political domination. It doesn't have to be occupying, but dominating. And they're in every field, from outer space, long -range missiles, undersea warfare, really putting a lot of effort into it. And there is a certain sort of ingenuity that goes into their operations. Well, they can't invent things. They don't develop things on their own. They just steal things. So they reverse engineer things. So they reverse engineer.
00:04:32 SPEAKER_03well, that's when you can lean on people. That's when
00:04:39 JACK GAINESAnd they're happy with the psychological domination, political domination. It doesn't have to be occupying, but dominating. And they're in every field, from outer space, long -range missiles, undersea warfare, really putting a lot of effort into it. And there is a certain sort of ingenuity that goes into their operations. Well, they can't invent things. They don't develop things on their own. They just steal things. So they reverse engineer things.
00:05:09 SPEAKER_02Well, it... You know, it's kind of true up to a point, but look at us. The Yankee ingenuity was taking stolen British technology and making it better. And so the fact they may not be as innovative as us, well, sometimes it just has to be good enough. So they've got now a military to combine with this desire for political domination as well as considering their economic power as just as important as the military. And you see how successful that has been. When you have U .S. business leaders giving Xi Jinping two standing ovations last November in San Francisco, that tells you how successful they've been on the economic front. And the Japanese know they have a huge problem. You would often hear the Japanese military saying, one thing Taiwan's defense is Japan's defense. But I've even seen the calculations they did, like at which point the Japanese Navy would be outmatched by the Chinese Navy. And they had the date almost down to when it was. And our side, we were late recognizing this. We refused to. We refused to.
00:05:11 GRANT NEWSHAMkind of true up to a point, but look at us. The Yankee ingenuity was taking stolen British technology and making it better. And so the fact
00:05:20 SPEAKER_03be as innovative as us, well, sometimes it just
00:05:23 JACK GAINEShas to be good enough. So they've got now a military to combine with this desire for political domination as well as considering their economic power as just as important as the military. And you see how successful that has been. When you have U .S. business leaders giving Xi Jinping two standing
00:05:45 JACK GAINESSan Francisco, that tells you how successful they've been on the economic front. And the Japanese know they have a huge problem. You
00:05:53 SPEAKER_03would often hear the Japanese military saying, one thing Taiwan's defense is Japan's defense. But I've even seen the calculations they did, like at which
00:06:03 JACK GAINESpoint the
00:06:06 JACK GAINESbe outmatched by the Chinese Navy. And they had the date almost down to when it was. And our side, we were late recognizing this. We refused
00:07:18 SPEAKER_02Yeah, as he described it well. Ultimately, the military part of the fight is extremely important. But it's almost a sideshow. But it's almost a sideshow to the other activities, the other fight that China's been waging for the last 30, 40 years, almost ever since we opened up to them. And that has been generally referred to as political warfare, with components being economic warfare, financial warfare, drug warfare, which is the word the Chinese use. So all this fentanyl that's been pumped into America for the last decade that's killed up towards a million Americans, almost all of it comes from China. And they know exactly what they're doing. And so every year they're taking like the equivalent of two or three divisions off the battlefield. You've destroyed neighborhoods. You've destroyed successful economic warfare. Drive 30 miles up the road to Baltimore. Go to Sparrows, Baltimore. Where there used to be steel mills. And now you have Amazon fulfillment sectors at best. But you've seen just the gutting of American society, the so -called working class, the Rust Belt. And this was done intentionally. And this was done intentionally. In large part, Chinese economic warfare directed at the United States. And then you have cyber warfare as well. You have cyber espionage. Well beyond what countries normally do. But they have used it very effectively. And the Chinese just... Recently put out their new fighter. That's called the J -35. That is a dig at the Americans. Because it is based on stolen blueprints for the F -35. I don't know.
00:07:20 SPEAKER_03Ultimately, the military part of the
00:07:26 SPEAKER_03it's almost a sideshow.
00:07:29 JACK GAINESsideshow to the other activities, the other fight that China's been waging for the last 30, 40 years, almost ever since we opened up to them. And that has been generally referred to as political warfare, with components being economic warfare, financial warfare, drug warfare, which is the word the Chinese use. So all this fentanyl that's been pumped into America for the last decade that's killed up towards a million Americans, almost all of it comes from China. And they know exactly what they're doing. And so every year they're taking like the equivalent of two or three divisions off the battlefield. You've destroyed neighborhoods. You've destroyed successful economic warfare. Drive 30 miles up the road to Baltimore. Go to Sparrows, Baltimore. Where there used to be steel mills. And now you have Amazon fulfillment sectors at best. But you've seen just the gutting of American society, the so -called working class, the Rust Belt. And this was done intentionally.
00:08:26 JACK GAINESwarfare directed at the United States. And then you have cyber warfare as well. You have cyber espionage.
00:08:34 SPEAKER_03Well beyond what countries normally do. But they have used it very effectively. And the Chinese just... Recently put out their new fighter. That's called the J -35. That is a dig at
00:08:47 GRANT NEWSHAMit is based on stolen blueprints for the F -35.
00:08:55 GRANT NEWSHAMknow. It's been a while. I don't know. It's been a while.
00:09:02 SPEAKER_02Unfortunately, Copperfish is leapfrogging over stages. Yes, it may take them a little longer, but they will popscotch through it. And so... So I take it pretty seriously. Their Y -20, their long -range transport, is basically the C -17. And they've just been immensely successful at this sort of espionage. And at the same time, we've done nothing to push back on them. Then there's the propaganda angle of this, which really good old Jesuit meaning of the word just means to explain yourself or articulate your position. So people understand that they've been very successful in getting Americans to buy the Chinese line. China's rise is peaceful. China's rise is peaceful. China's never attacked anybody. China's never attacked anybody. It's not true. All great nations do this. So who are we to complain? America has its problems, too. America has its problems, too. Who are we to complain about the Chinese taking live organs out of Uyghurs and prisoners of conscience? And we've been able to convince ourselves that we've been able to convince ourselves that we've not only can we not do anything, we shouldn't do anything. This is changing. But you can see we were very late getting started. And this has all been done without firing a shot. Chinese economic inroads, Chinese economic inroads, which leads to political influence, is in, for example, South America and Africa. Just immense how fast that has come, how solid it is. Pacific Island, something similar is going on, something similar is going on. Look at the difficulties the Germans have had, weaning themselves off of this Chinese addiction. And as a result,
00:09:03 GRANT NEWSHAMis leapfrogging over stages. Yes, it may take them
00:09:07 SPEAKER_03but they will
00:09:09 GRANT NEWSHAMpopscotch through it. And so... So I take it pretty seriously. Their Y -20,
00:09:16 JACK GAINEStheir long -range transport, is basically the C -17. And they've just been immensely successful at this sort of espionage. And at the same time, we've done nothing to push back on them. Then there's the propaganda angle of this, which really good old Jesuit meaning of the word just means to explain yourself or articulate your position. So people understand that they've been very successful in getting Americans to buy the Chinese line. China's rise is peaceful. China's rise is peaceful. China's never attacked anybody. China's never attacked anybody. It's not true. All great nations do this. So who are we to complain?
00:09:49 SPEAKER_03America has its problems, too. America has its problems, too. Who are we to complain about the Chinese taking live organs out of Uyghurs and prisoners of conscience? And we've been able to
00:10:00 JACK GAINESthat we've been able
00:10:00 SPEAKER_03to convince ourselves that we've not only can we not do anything, we shouldn't do anything. This is changing. But you can see we were very late getting started. And this has all been done without firing a shot.
00:10:10 JACK GAINESChinese economic inroads, Chinese economic inroads, which leads to political influence, is in, for example, South America and Africa. Just immense how fast that has come, how solid it is. Pacific Island, something similar is going on, something similar is going on.
00:10:27 SPEAKER_03Look at the difficulties the Germans have had, weaning themselves off of this Chinese addiction.
00:10:34 SPEAKER_02as a result, they have been able to improve their position politically, psychologically, economically, and they've been able to do this globally without having to use their military.
00:10:36 SPEAKER_03their position
00:10:40 GRANT NEWSHAMand they've been able to do this globally without having to use their military.
00:10:51 SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's the idea. Is you don't want to. So our view of warfare is like a hundred -yard dash. Wherever the two sides come to the line, shake loose, and then someone fires a gun, and then someone fires a gun, and then it's game on. To the Chinese, the war has started long ago. And you're wearing down your opponent. You're weakening his ability to resist. You're creating chaos in his own country. There's a word called entropy. Which is just breaking down. Entropic warfare is a word that sometimes gets used. For you're breaking down his ability to resist. And at the same time, of course, the Chinese are building up a military, which is very serious. Yes, it's not showing up off of San Diego just yet. But places closer to China, it's much more of an issue. Japan knows the problem they have with the People's Liberation Army. Pacific Island, Southeast Asia. You are seeing more of a Chinese presence. And the point is, when the time comes, you may not even be able to resist if the Chinese have done this other sort of warfare.
00:10:53 JACK GAINESwant to. So our view of warfare is like a hundred -yard dash. Wherever the two sides come to the line, shake loose, and then someone fires a gun, and then someone fires a gun, and then it's game on. To the Chinese, the war has started long ago. And you're wearing down your opponent. You're weakening his ability to resist. You're creating chaos in his own country. There's a word called entropy. Which is just breaking down. Entropic warfare is a word that
00:11:19 SPEAKER_03sometimes gets used. For you're breaking down his ability to resist. And at the same time, of course, the Chinese are building up a military, which is very serious.
00:11:28 JACK GAINESYes, it's not showing
00:11:33 JACK GAINESplaces closer to China, it's much more of an issue. Japan knows the problem they have with the People's Liberation Army. Pacific Island, Southeast Asia. You are seeing more
00:11:46 JACK GAINESChinese presence. And the point is, when the time comes, you may not even be able to resist if the Chinese have
00:11:52 SPEAKER_03this other
00:12:31 SPEAKER_02That's exactly what it is. It's mental warfare. You're attacking the mind. You're attacking how people think about things. Some people use the word cognitive warfare. You're the popular word. Yeah, you're attacking the mind. And so you can see how well it worked. And the Russians had a much poorer hand to play than the Chinese do. Because we do so much business with China. And you see how hard it is to do things like ban TikTok. We can't even get that done.
00:12:33 JACK GAINESmental warfare. You're attacking the mind. You're attacking how people think about things. Some people use the
00:12:42 JACK GAINESYou're the popular word. Yeah, you're attacking the mind. And so you can see how well it worked. And the Russians had a much poorer hand to play than
00:12:50 GRANT NEWSHAMthe Chinese do. Because we do so much business with China. And you see how hard it is to do things like ban TikTok. We can't even get that done.
00:12:59 SPEAKER_02We can't even get that done.
00:13:03 SPEAKER_02Look, 72 hours, if that for the Indians do, we can do it. And you see how Chinese successfully use what they call lawfare, which is using our own legal system. And the idea is that you get proxies, influential foreigners in your target country to actually do your bidding for you. The Chinese have like five aces to play. The Russians might have won, but you can see how successful the Russians have been just with that.
00:13:04 JACK GAINESfor the Indians do, we can do it. And you see how Chinese successfully use what they call lawfare, which
00:13:13 JACK GAINESthe idea is that you get proxies, influential foreigners in your target country to actually do your bidding for you. The Chinese have like five aces to play. The Russians might have won, but you can see how successful the Russians have
00:13:41 SPEAKER_02Uh -huh. Uh -huh.
00:13:46 SPEAKER_02Well, you're right about the Russians, but the Chinese understand that the term gray zone paralyzes Americans. We have no idea what to do because of our view of warfare being until the shooting starts. That it is we're not really at war. There's still hope of working something out.
00:13:51 GRANT NEWSHAMparalyzes Americans. We have no idea what to do because of our view of warfare being until the shooting starts. That it is we're not really at war. There's still hope of working
00:14:03 SPEAKER_03something out.
00:14:05 SPEAKER_02That has been our rote response for all these years, is to not get the Chinese mad, don't provoke them, and we have convinced ourselves that we have to have Chinese help with fill -in -the -blank, North Korea transnational crime, nuclear weapons proliferation, climate change, and therefore we cannot challenge the PRC because we won't get their cooperation. That's what we've effectively handcuffed ourselves, but when it comes to that so -called hybrid warfare, it's not all that It's not all that complicated if you recognize what it is and how it fits into China's behavior, its strategy. But you also would do well to attract from other directions where they're particularly vulnerable. And that is where you take advantage of the fact, for example, the Chinese currency is not freely convertible, which means that outside of China, nobody really wants Chinese money. It's like the script at a... It's like the script where you can use it to buy caramel corn and go on the rides.
00:14:05 SPEAKER_03has been our rote response for all these years, is to not get the Chinese mad, don't provoke them, and we have convinced ourselves that
00:14:14 JACK GAINEShave Chinese help with fill -in -the -blank, North Korea transnational crime, nuclear weapons
00:14:22 JACK GAINESclimate change, and therefore we cannot challenge the PRC because we won't get their cooperation. That's what we've effectively handcuffed ourselves, but when it comes to that so -called hybrid warfare, it's not all that It's not all that complicated if you recognize what it is and how it fits into
00:14:42 JACK GAINESits strategy. But you also would do well to attract from other directions where they're particularly vulnerable. And that is where you take advantage of the fact, for example, the Chinese currency is not freely convertible, which means that outside of China, nobody really wants Chinese money. It's like the script at a... It's like the script where you can use it to buy caramel corn and
00:15:06 SPEAKER_02That's it. Nobody wants it. So choke that off and China's got some real problems. Another is the just thoroughgoing corruption of China's ruling class. And most of them have wealth overseas, foreign bank accounts. foreign bank accounts, relatives with green cards, relatives with green cards, some operate businesses overseas. And this is illegal. And this is illegal.
00:15:08 JACK GAINESit. So choke that off and China's got some real problems. Another is the just thoroughgoing corruption of China's ruling class. And most
00:15:19 GRANT NEWSHAMoverseas, foreign bank accounts. foreign bank accounts, relatives with green cards, relatives with green cards, some operate businesses overseas. And this
00:15:31 SPEAKER_02And this is where that really scares them. Because in 2011 or 2012, New York Times and Bloomberg actually put out some good stories about the overseas wealth of China's top people, including Xi Jinping's family. I've never seen a reaction from the Chinese like that one. This bothered them.
00:15:33 JACK GAINESscares them. Because in 2011 or 2012, New
00:15:37 SPEAKER_03York Times and Bloomberg actually put out some good stories about the overseas wealth of China's top people, including Xi Jinping's family.
00:15:46 GRANT NEWSHAMI've never seen a reaction from the Chinese like that one.
00:15:53 SPEAKER_02More than anything else we've ever done. That's...
00:15:53 GRANT NEWSHAMthan anything
00:16:14 SPEAKER_02One way to do it. Another way to do it. That would be a tactical thing. Say you were to release, say, every Friday. Say at 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever. 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever.
00:16:16 JACK GAINESway to do it. That would be a tactical thing. Say you were to
00:16:19 SPEAKER_03release, say, every Friday. Say at 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever. 1 a .m. 1 o 'clock or whenever.
00:16:25 SPEAKER_02Which of the top 50 Chinese Communist Party officials? And make sure it reached everywhere in China. The thing that the public really hates is this corruption. And by the top dogs. And that is something that really bothers them. And you note that the Chinese leadership is very willing to have the average Chinese citizen absorb any amount of punishment. And they even talk about it.
00:16:27 SPEAKER_03Chinese Communist Party officials? And make sure it
00:16:29 GRANT NEWSHAMreached everywhere in China. The thing that the public really hates is this corruption. And by the top dogs.
00:16:38 JACK GAINESis something that really bothers them. And you note that the Chinese leadership is very willing to have the average Chinese citizen
00:16:49 JACK GAINESthey even talk about it.
00:16:51 SPEAKER_02But when it's personal, then they see it very differently. And this is one of the few ways to really make it personal for them is to capitalize on this corruption. So when we talk about... Dealing with Gray's own operations, we're probably not going to be all that successful. Because they have more ships, they can be in more places.
00:16:51 JACK GAINESwhen it's personal, then they see it very differently. And this is one of the few ways to really make it personal for them is to capitalize on this corruption. So when we talk about... Dealing with Gray's own operations, we're probably not going to be all that successful. Because they have more ships, they can be in more places.
00:17:14 SPEAKER_02But expose that. They can do that. Have we made a concerted effort to expose Chinese bribery, the illicit payments, the corruption that they put into everywhere they go? Everywhere there's a Chinese presence, you have corruption of the society, the political class as well. And do we ever target that? Do we consider it a priority effort? I don't even think we consider it an effort at all. Exposure is the one thing that has a huge effect. This is why investigative journalists get big. It's why like Irish. gangsters try to murder them in Malta they get blown up because they're effective because they're effective which is the thing that makes it very hard for corruption to work and that's where I think
00:17:15 JACK GAINEScan do that. Have we made a concerted effort to expose Chinese bribery, the illicit payments, the corruption that they put into everywhere they go? Everywhere there's a Chinese presence, you have corruption of the society, the political class as well. And do we ever target that? Do we consider it a priority effort? I don't even think we consider it an effort at all. Exposure is the one thing that has a huge effect. This is why investigative journalists
00:17:44 SPEAKER_03get big. It's why like Irish. gangsters try to murder them in Malta they get blown up because they're effective because they're effective which
00:17:52 SPEAKER_02is the thing that makes it very hard for corruption to work and that's where I think We have some real opportunities to make it very clear what's being done. And this is something that, if you expose it, you can really capitalize on it. Just make it too hard to do this. And it also gives oxygen to the honest people in a country. It gives them something to work with. It gives them something to work with. To take on these repressive regimes, these corrupt regimes, these corrupt regimes, administrations. And get rid of them and replace them with honest people. I've never met anywhere, anywhere I've been. Over the years. Where people like to be cheaters. Where people like to be cheaters. Where they like their leaders to be corrupt. I just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. I just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. It's just nothing you can do. But it's just nothing you can do. It really has an effect. And that's where I think government for sources could be effectively devoted. And particularly once you get local reporters in on it. Once you get the local. Honest locals in on it. Honest locals in on it. And that's where I think we could be very effective. Corruption, as you've mentioned, that really is the grease to everything the Chinese communists do globally. Take it away and then take away their access to dollars, convertible currency. And they've really got some problems. But they have played their hand very well today. But in some ways it's a house of cards. I don't think it's that hard to take on. But the longer you wait, the harder it gets.
00:17:52 SPEAKER_03is the thing that makes it
00:17:54 JACK GAINEScorruption to work and that's where I think We have some real opportunities to make it very clear what's being done. And this is something that, if you expose it, you can really capitalize on it. Just make it too hard to do this. And it also gives oxygen to the honest people in a country. It
00:18:16 JACK GAINESto work with. To take on these repressive regimes, these corrupt regimes, these corrupt regimes,
00:18:23 JACK GAINESthem with honest people. I've never met anywhere, anywhere I've been. Over the years. Where
00:18:32 JACK GAINESI just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. I just haven't met it. I've been anywhere. It's just nothing you can do. But it's just nothing you can do. It really has an effect. And that's where I think government for sources could be effectively devoted. And particularly once you
00:18:46 GRANT NEWSHAMreporters in on it. Once you get the local. Honest locals in on it. Honest locals in on it. And that's where I think we could be very effective.
00:18:56 JACK GAINESCorruption, as you've mentioned, that really is the grease to everything the Chinese communists do globally. Take it away and then take away their access to dollars, convertible currency. And they've really got some
00:19:12 JACK GAINEStoday. But in some ways it's a house of cards. I don't think it's that hard to take on. But the longer you wait, the harder it
00:19:28 SPEAKER_02In regards to U .S. policy, in policy, there really is a... a desire that the United States stays around in Asia, that maintains its military might, and is able to effectively safeguard what you call freedom consensual government. Because if you go around the region, nobody wants to be dominated by the PRC. But they do have a huge advantage, particularly economically, that they're seen by leaders and business people in a lot of these countries. That's really the source of... some wealth, some prosperity. And we would do well, for example, to see the fight as just as much an economic one as a military one. Because we could build up our military, rebuild it, and we could have 800 ships in the Navy, and still lose. If we don't fight on these other fronts, we don't want you here because we're doing too much business with China. And that's where the U .S., along with its friends, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Indians, the Australians, we would do well to operate together more and to see the economic front and the political warfare fronts as a priority effort as much, if not more, than the military.
00:19:30 SPEAKER_03in policy, there
00:19:31 JACK GAINESreally is a... a desire that the United States stays around in Asia, that maintains its military might, and is able to
00:19:45 JACK GAINESBecause if you go around the region, nobody wants to be dominated by the PRC. But they do have a huge advantage, particularly economically, that they're seen by leaders and business people in a lot of these countries. That's really the source of... some wealth, some prosperity. And we would do well, for example, to see the fight as just as much an economic
00:20:09 GRANT NEWSHAMone as a military one. Because we could build up our military, rebuild it, and we could have 800 ships in the Navy, and still lose. If we don't
00:20:19 JACK GAINESon these other fronts, we don't want you here because we're doing too much business with China. And that's where the U .S., along with its friends, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Indians, the Australians,
00:20:30 GRANT NEWSHAMwe would do well to operate together more and to see the economic front and the political warfare fronts as a priority effort as much, if not
00:20:40 JACK GAINESmore, than the
00:20:45 SPEAKER_02They have a role to play if they're properly harnessed. But you do know that these days you don't see the Yankee trader that used to exist. You'd run to Americans everywhere trying to sell something to do business. Not so much these days. And we've almost ceded the far -flung part to the world. Because, well, the return on investment isn't enough. That's not an attractive enough proposition. Well, then let's make it one. Plus, you do have, say, the Japanese, the Indians, who are much better at operating in these places, to put it together into a coherent plan. Understand what it is, political warfare, and not just block the Chinese political warfare effort, but actually have our own campaign. And it really is worth doing some homework, I think, for a lot of people into what political warfare is. One sees the opportunities, but it takes a certain type of person who's good at it. versus a civil affairs guy. Versus a civil affairs guy. He's going to see different... He's going to see parts of the battlefield in a different way. Yes, sometimes you want the tank. But then there's this other part of it all. That is almost like a liberal arts test. Here you have to figure out the motivations for things. You have to figure out how a society works. And then how do you appeal to it using the things that are parts of political warfare? And this is where you can really make some mileage. You've got to have both. Make no mistake. If you're not able to destroy things and kill people, the civil affairs part isn't going to get you very far. But combine the two, and then you've really got something that's very hard to take on if you're the bad guys. We talk about defending Taiwan, and how important it is, and it is, I think, indispensable, that China does not take Taiwan and enslave 23 million people. If they did that...
00:20:47 JACK GAINESthey're properly harnessed. But you do know that these days you don't see the Yankee trader that used to exist. You'd run to Americans everywhere trying to sell something to do business. Not
00:20:59 SPEAKER_03so much these days. And we've almost ceded the far -flung part to the world. Because, well, the return on investment isn't enough. That's not an attractive enough proposition. Well, then let's
00:21:10 GRANT NEWSHAMmake it one. Plus, you do have, say, the Japanese, the Indians, who are much better at operating in these places, to put it together into a coherent plan. Understand what it
00:21:20 JACK GAINESis, political warfare, and not just block the Chinese political warfare effort, but actually have our own campaign. And it really is worth doing some homework, I think, for a lot of people into what political warfare is. One sees the opportunities, but it takes a certain type of person who's good at it. versus a civil affairs guy. Versus a civil affairs guy. He's going to see different... He's going to see parts of the battlefield in a different way.
00:21:50 SPEAKER_03Yes, sometimes you want the tank. But then there's this other part of it all. That is almost like a liberal arts test. Here you have to figure
00:22:00 JACK GAINESfor things. You have to figure out how a society works. And then how do you appeal to it using the things that are parts of political warfare?
00:22:10 JACK GAINESmake some mileage. You've got to have both. Make no mistake. If you're not able to destroy things and kill people, the civil affairs part isn't going to get you very far. But combine the two, and then you've really got something that's very hard to take on if you're the bad guys. We talk about defending Taiwan, and how important it is, and it is, I think, indispensable,
00:22:32 GRANT NEWSHAMthat China does not take Taiwan and enslave 23 million people. If they did that...
00:22:39 SPEAKER_02Asia would turn red overnight, as every country tried to cut the best deal they could. No country anywhere on Earth would have much confidence in American promises that will protect them. But one of the ways to actually defend Taiwan is, yes, they could maybe use F -35s and long -range missiles and smart pines, etc. You do have to have all of this stuff. Is it enough,
00:22:39 GRANT NEWSHAMwould turn red overnight, as every country tried
00:22:42 SPEAKER_03to cut the best deal they could. No country anywhere
00:22:46 JACK GAINESon Earth would have much confidence in American promises that will protect them. But one of the ways to actually defend
00:22:51 GRANT NEWSHAMTaiwan is, yes, they could maybe use F -35s and long -range missiles and smart pines, etc. You do have to have all of this stuff. Is it enough, even? Particularly if the other side says, okay, we'll absorb whatever you can send at us, but you're finished. But one of the ways that... But one of the ways is to give them a free trade agreement to improve their economy to the point that the government felt like it had money to spend on defense.
00:23:02 SPEAKER_02Particularly if the other side says, okay, we'll absorb whatever you can send at us, but you're finished. But one of the ways that... But one of the ways is to give them a free trade agreement to improve their economy to the point that the government felt like it had money to spend on defense. You get a certain confidence in the entire society when they're more prosperous. Salaries are very low in Taiwan. Make it so people feel like they've got more money. Can they can buy a house? Can they can buy a condominium? build up the economy and that has a ripple effect throughout the society and on their military itself. And yet we didn't do that. And I think that's where we should apply some effort.
00:23:11 JACK GAINESgive them a free trade agreement to
00:23:16 JACK GAINESpoint that the government felt like it had money to spend on defense. You get a certain confidence in the entire society when they're more prosperous. Salaries are very low in Taiwan. Make it so people feel like they've got more money. Can they can buy a house? Can they can buy a condominium?
00:23:35 JACK GAINESthe economy and that has a ripple effect throughout the society and on their military itself. And yet we didn't do that. And I think that's where we should apply some
00:24:25 SPEAKER_02I think you're right. And it's essential that we start to understand. You look at much of the debate about us in China. What happens when the two forces go at each other? And that's almost like... Going up behind the Waffle House. Going up behind the Waffle House. To see who's the toughest guy in Prince William County. To see who's the toughest guy in Prince William County. Out back. But think of all the things that go into whether or not the two hoodlums. There's all sorts of reasons why. No, there may not.
00:24:27 JACK GAINESessential that we start to understand.
00:24:32 JACK GAINESus in China.
00:24:33 SPEAKER_03What happens when the two forces go at each other? And that's almost like... Going up behind the Waffle House. Going up behind the Waffle
00:24:43 JACK GAINESHouse. To see who's the toughest guy in Prince William County. To see
00:24:52 JACK GAINESwhether or not the two hoodlums.
00:24:56 JACK GAINESof reasons why. No, there may not.
00:24:59 SPEAKER_02Or that will affect the outcome, actually. None of them have to do with force on force. And that's so much of our debate on the US -China military problem. Is that a problem? Would our Navy take on theirs? Is there long -range missiles outrange ours? Yes, it's important. Make no mistake. Yes, it's important. Make no mistake. It's only one part of the battle. It's only one part of the battle. And it's the last part.
00:25:02 JACK GAINESof them have to do with force on force. And that's so much of our debate on the US -China military problem. Is that a problem? Would our Navy take on theirs? Is there long -range missiles outrange ours? Yes, it's important. Make no mistake. Yes, it's
00:25:21 JACK GAINESof the battle. And it's the last part.
00:25:22 SPEAKER_02And if you look at the other part, it's a political warfare. And every part of that, then you have the chance, one, not to lose. You can actually shape things to your advantage. But if you don't, and the other guy is the only one playing that, well, you're likely to find yourself at 2 a .m. outside the Waffle House, and he's actually ready. We talk about bases.
00:25:22 JACK GAINESif you look at the other part, it's a political warfare. And every part of that, then you have the chance, one, not to lose. You can actually shape things to your advantage. But if you don't, and the other guy is the only one playing that, well, you're likely to find yourself at 2 a .m. outside the Waffle House, and he's actually ready. We talk about bases.
00:25:45 SPEAKER_02We talk about bases. Well, what if we don't have the access because Chinese political warfare has made us so the locals won't let us into a place? They won't let us operate.
00:25:45 JACK GAINEStalk about bases. Well, what if we don't have the access because Chinese political warfare has made us so the locals won't let us into a place?
00:25:53 GRANT NEWSHAMThey won't let us operate.
00:25:55 SPEAKER_02They won't let us operate. Oh, that's a pretty good example. Is that a pretty good example? One hoodlum can't get a ride to the awful house, but the other one can. So we've really got to start thinking about these things from a much broader perspective. And it's unfortunate that we're reinventing the wheel here. But the game's not over. It may be the bottom of the 7th and we're down by 6th. We're the old Washington Senators. We're the old Washington Senators. and debate how far we're behind. At the end of the day, we've got a good hand to play. I hope we start playing it.
00:25:58 JACK GAINESIs that a pretty good example? One hoodlum can't get a ride to the awful house, but the other
00:26:08 JACK GAINESthinking about these things from a much
00:26:15 JACK GAINESthe wheel here.
00:26:18 JACK GAINESIt may be the bottom of the 7th and we're down by 6th. We're the old Washington Senators. We're the old Washington Senators. and debate how far we're behind. At the end of the day, we've got a good hand to play. I hope we start playing it.
00:26:35 SPEAKER_02Glad to be here. Thank you. Glad to be here. Thank you.
00:26:40 JACK GAINESThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Today, we welcome Sam Cooper, an author and journalist based in Ottawa.
He came in to talk about his reporting on PRC political and economic warfare, its impact on Canada and the United States, and how those tools are being used worldwide, including Taiwan, to undermine the rule of law and each nation's sovereignty.
This episode goes fast and has a lot of great information on how China sets conditions for winning without fighting.
The One CA Podcast is here to inspire anyone interested in working in US foreign relations. - Often called the last three feet of diplomacy. We bring in practitioners from all walks of foreign service including the military, diplomacy, nongovernmental, development, and field agents to talk about their experiences and work.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail (dot) com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
Special Thanks to Cafe Music BGM channel and their release, "Hip Hop Jazz & Smooth Jazz Instrumental." Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5yTtDZZiHg
----Transcript----
Transcript:
00:00:00 JACK GAINESToday, we welcome Sam Cooper, author and journalist based out of Ottawa. He came in to talk about his reporting on PRC political and economic warfare and its impact on Canada and the United States and how those tools are being used around the world, including Taiwan, to undermine the rule of law and each nation's sovereignty. This episode goes fast and has a lot of great information on how China sets conditions for winning without fighting. So, let's get started.
00:00:27 SAM COOPERIn the course of reporting, I discovered the compound of Tiger Yuan, an individual that was directly investigated in this Chinese underground banking story, had the most weapons in Western Canada, if not across Canada, for a citizen. And so, when my sources said this person is or was PLA, this person has connectivity to the highest levels of organized crime. And this person is very politically connected, and their activity outside of organized crime appears to be directing Chinese state -friendly people what to do in Western Canada. That's when I really started to dig into and understand the Chinese interference story, starting on the West Coast and then moving across. Literally, I started reporting from Ottawa. That's when I got into the political side of it.
00:01:20 JACK GAINESSo how many weapons are you talking about? And are you talking about small arms, large arms, tactical, technicals? What was it that you were able to find?
00:01:29 SAM COOPERI'll start with the big picture. I was directed to a compound in Chilliwack, British Columbia. This is very near the United States -Washington state border. It's just outside of Vancouver, and it was a compound of tremendous luxury. In an underground massive parking lot, there were about 80 luxury vehicles. that indicated huge-scale money laundering. There were American military jeeps and vintage machine guns. There was a fire truck. There was a diesel-type rig. There's Ferraris. And so, I was told that this person has vaults of restricted firearms. So, we're talking tactical weapons that you hold against your shoulder and extend your arm out as far as it can.
00:02:16 JACK GAINESYeah, long guns.
00:02:17 SAM COOPERRight. Long guns. These are military-style weapons. I can't say they're AK -47s or Noriko. He didn't let you in there to mark all the numbers and he didn't give you the inventory sheets.
00:02:24 JACK GAINESlet you in there to mark all the numbers and he didn't give you the inventory sheets.
00:02:29 SAM COOPERHe didn't give me the inventory sheets, but Canada has to keep a log of the weapons out there as best as it can. And in an open-source photo, you've got a gangster sort of standing downstairs beside a luxury car with a, I believe it was sort of a burp gun. And then in the back corner, you could see an open door with just a room stacked with weapons. You could literally see a vintage machine gun, one of those ones that would have a sort of stand so you can shoot out of a trench, maybe back in the 50s or 60s. And my sources said, we know that this person has the largest cache of restricted and unrestricted weapons in Western Canada. As I wrote in Willful Blindness, this is... Chapo Guzman -style wealth in a Canadian property, and it makes no sense.
00:03:19 JACK GAINESWell, it sounds like this person is a hub for gun running and money and probably drugs. Because if he's got storehouses for weapons, that means he can rotate them out for criminal groups that are moving through the area so that no one really gets tied to a weapon if there's ever a crime committed. But it also sounds like they've got connections
00:03:47 SAM COOPERYeah. Well, I would say you nailed everything in your question. And to unpack that, on the organized crime side, the information is this person is literally a revered hero from the People's Liberation Army. It's not that China did well in their border assault on Vietnam. They did pretty badly. But this person, Tiger Yuan, is glorified in various Chinese language documents. military veteran, is assessed by Canadian federal police to be in charge of gangs. He would be a person that is handling Chinese mafia in Canada and giving them directions to meet some of the Chinese Communist Party's political objectives.
00:04:30 JACK GAINESSo, he's a kingpin.
00:04:31 SAM COOPERHe's a kingpin, an intelligence handler involved in organized crime at the highest level and also with the capacity to direct these high -level triads. I think we're talking about what's known as the company. This is elite China -based triads that are active running weapons and drugs sentinel around the world and yet have connections at the highest level to military and intelligence and political figures for the parties. So yes, the type of person involved in trade -based money laundering, the ability to send weapons in and out of Canada, the ability to collect weapons from... Chinese visitors who happen to buy guns in Canada and then want to get rid of them. As you said, this military veteran can be a node to move them. I'm told through police sources; this person is suspected to be involved in the Chinese police station activity. So, as you know, that would include what was exposed by the FBI in New York, where we have purported community associations that are actually running these illegal...
00:05:38 JACK GAINESCommunity police stations in other countries.
00:05:41 SAM COOPERExactly. And these would be used to harass dissidents, to go after Xi Jinping's so -called fox hunt targets. So, Tiger Yuan would be central to that. He would be central to meeting with Chinese language journalists. And I'm told giving them directions or coaching on the type of reporting they should be doing. He would be central to types of... fundraising activities that could blend legitimate business with illegitimate business and have those monies go into Canada's political system. Well,
00:06:17 JACK GAINESafter reading your book, Willful Blindness, one thing came to me, and that is that it looks like China has successfully mixed profiteering and foreign policy so that they can successfully tie the profits from narcotics to influence and persuasion in countries to achieve their foreign policy goals. I had John Cassara on recently, and he talked about that China has probably half of the global illicit trade profit coming into it. And when people measure China, they measure its GDP. They don't measure that black economy. Because most of it goes right back out into the world to fund these illicit criminal groups that are also complicit with the PRC and the money that goes to the pockets of people willing to take the influence dollars to do what PRC wants. But it was really your book that opened that perspective. And it sounds like what you're seeing is the tuning of that process. and how they're really bringing it to bear to see how far they can go and being successful in moving a country's orbit into the PRC influence space.
00:07:37 SAM COOPERYeah, I agree with everything you said there, and thank you for saying that. I do think my book had a little bit of a cognitive advance in showing people that when we're speaking about the mercantilism of the People's Republic of China and the trade mixed into that, by design, I believe, is trade -based money laundering in which, of course, there are some honest tycoons or almost as honest as you can be within China's system. But there are many that have both legitimate and underground casino facilitation, capital flake facilitation, direct narcotics trafficking, weapons. But China doesn't look at those people as the government should have a distance from them. China sees those people as ones that have connections abroad, ones that have great influence in diaspora communities. And business persons that are involved in organized crime in Beijing's playbook should be used to influence politicians that are looking for votes in the diaspora.
00:08:43 JACK GAINESDo you think that Xi Jinping and the PRC allow a certain amount of wealth and influence or affluence? in these people that are expats around the world in exchange for conducting these types of operations?
00:09:00 SAM COOPERYes, I think there's a lot going on, and I'm always trying to clarify my understanding, but some have coined the term strategic corruption. This is what we saw in Ukraine for years before Putin made his move. We saw the oligarchs and the tycoons, people like Semyon Mogilev ich, had great control over the Ukrainian resource industries. A person named Boris Berstein, who settled in Toronto, was a major underground banker and money launderer with connectivity to the KGB. So, we've seen this playbook in Ukraine, having people with gang connections or direct intelligence connections corrupt foreign governments and try to pave the way. And I think China is doing a bigger and even more sophisticated variation on that now, where they want people that are, as I've reported in Canada, we have major real estate developers, major portions of Vancouver and Toronto are in fact Chinese or Hong Kong money. And these big real estate developers, there's no question that Beijing has relationships with them, that they will be protected in their illegitimate business activities if they deliver objectives. to Beijing. And there's so much more going on, but yes, in a nutshell, Beijing offers protection to the highest-level criminals in the world if they will deliver political objectives wherever they are.
00:10:27 JACK GAINESAre you seeing a cohesion of operations between them? How closely tied are they to Beijing? Or is it decentralized to where they say, look, if you build influence and you just let us know who you have contacts with, we'll let you know if we need you. Is it more of a mafia style relationship? How closely tied are they?
00:10:46 SAM COOPERWell, that is the trillion -dollar question. I mean, I'm always trying to get my understanding. And I'm sure they don't just show you.
00:10:52 JACK GAINESI'm sure they don't just show you. Here, here's our relationship map now. I mean, I spent a lot of time thinking about it.
00:10:55 SAM COOPERhere's our relationship map now. I mean, I spent a lot of time thinking about it. And as best as I can understand, and I'm always talking to experts to understand more. Sure. But it's not as hierarchical and rigid. I've been told that it is the most fluid. entrepreneurial system you can imagine. There's all types of competition. We have something called Guanxi, which is this very deep sort of transactional cultural relationships between people at high levels in China's system. And we have interrelationships of gangs, interrelationships of intelligence agencies. We have competition among both of those forces.
00:11:40 SAM COOPERTo boil it down, I don't think Xi Jinping is able to say, OK, mafia leader A, you're going to go to Canada, specifically Toronto, and achieve this. It's more that we have what you know is the united front system. That is, all these community groups at the end of the day have been co -opted by officials in consulates around the world so that the community groups are controlled directly by Chinese intelligence officials in embassies and consulates. And they have various levels of tasking to these community groups, who I am saying are almost exclusively involved, high -level tycoon type gang associates. And then within these United Front networks, you have intelligence handlers of the type to circle back to this BC case of this PLA veteran, Tiger Yuan, who is able to be like an area manager of legitimate and illegitimate. business activity in various regions. In my understanding, we have some bosses in Toronto, Ontario, for the Eastern Canada, who are this blend of an intelligence handler and a very high-level organized crime person. We have similar bosses in Western Canada. And I'm sure because I've read a corruption case involving a senator in San Francisco. We don't need to name the name, but this senator was allegedly involved in offshore arms trading, an FBI sting operation got him. He was involved in talking to the various families in that area. By families, I mean triads. And so, I have to believe in California, we have these very same type of PLA intelligence handlers that are into that fluid mix of gangsters, businesspersons, politicians. that one way or another, they'll get their guanxi from Beijing if they deliver objectives. Right.
00:13:40 JACK GAINESAnd then you have the community police there to track people down if they take their wealth and disappear, or if they're not producing, or if they don't feel like they're part of the fold.
00:13:51 SAM COOPERYeah. The CCP police station really just made everything we're talking about in this fluid network much easier to understand because they had little bricks and mortar shops. Right. that the FBI and others have discovered have both gangsters and traveling CCP officials involved to look over the community.
00:14:11 JACK GAINESRight. Because you have to have an enforcer. If you're going to run a loose network of criminals, you have to have an enforcer of some type in case people get their own ideas or their own ambitions to get them back in line.
00:14:22 SAM COOPERThat's absolutely true. I'll keep circling back to this person in the Vancouver area with the largest collections of personal weapons. You're a fan.
00:14:30 JACK GAINESYou're a fan. You want to go check out that fire trick. I mean, I know I do. I don't think either of us will be invited in the near future.
00:14:35 SAM COOPERdon't think either of us will be invited in the near future. But look, who's the person that's going to be able to keep gangsters in line, keep politicians in line? Right. It's a person with a lot of guns and a lot of respect. Someone that's revered by the diaspora.
00:14:49 JACK GAINESA lot of money. A lot of money.
00:14:50 SAM COOPERlot of money. and a lot of money that they're happy to donate to Beijing's operations because they will have, in turn, the protection to run their operations.
00:15:00 JACK GAINESSure. So, it's a cooperative.
00:15:02 SAM COOPERIt's a cooperative. With a line with teeth.
00:15:03 JACK GAINESWith a line with teeth. Okay. And then you were able to go to Taiwan. Was that to talk with Taiwanese officials about what's going on in Canada? Was it to do strategy on their upcoming elections? What were you doing that you can talk about?
00:15:19 SAM COOPERI can say that just as I launched my new journalism platform, I got the invitation from - You got to plug the platform,
00:15:25 JACK GAINESgot to plug the platform, start over.
00:15:27 SAM COOPERYeah. Okay. So yeah, I mean, what I can say is, as soon as I launched the Bureau, my new independent journalism platform - Beautiful.
00:15:36 JACK GAINESBeautiful.
00:15:36 SAM COOPERBeautiful. Right? So that I can report with the depth that I did in my book. I can do this in Canadian media. I was invited by the officials in Taiwan to travel to Taipei in September. And I think their interest was they had understood that I had a good grasp on China's political warfare and election interference in Canada. And I had talked to the officials in Ottawa from Taiwan and they said, there's a lot to report on. We want to have good relationships with international journalists so they can tell the story that Taiwan is an important democracy that really should be understood and valued by the rest of the democratic world. that's under deep threat right now, as you know, Jack, from the People's Liberation Army and all sorts of political warfare. So, I was invited to travel with 17 international journalists, and we had deep and great access to Taiwanese officials, including the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of the Mainland Affairs Council, which is essentially, I judge, an intelligence agency. It's the only one that can deal with Beijing because, as you know, Beijing will not talk to Taiwan government to government. They see it as a renegade province. I did four reports from Taiwan, and my focus was, of course, I'm exposing China's activities in Canada, but I'm always looking for corroboration and context and understanding. So, I was asking the Mainland Affairs Council officials. I'm seeing, for example, Fujian organized crime figures running CCP police stations in Sharon and Vancouver. I'm seeing them involved in election interference transfers. Can you tell me about similar activities? And it was very refreshing for me to get a direct answer from an official. He told me, I'm going to break news for you about this new scheme we've discovered. China is using underground gambling networks. in Taiwan, in efforts to influence our upcoming election, they are trying to... And you threw your arms up and said, that's what I said!
00:17:46 JACK GAINESAnd you threw your arms up and said, that's what I said!
00:17:49 SAM COOPERWell, I said, thank you for confirming from a high -level official of another country what I'm seeing. That is, China is using people that are running underground casinos in Canada to interfere in our elections in very complex ways. And in Taiwan, you're telling me that there's underground betting markets on elections and they try to skew the gambling odds so that this feeds into the actual election day result.
00:17:54 JACK GAINESof another country what
00:18:13 SAM COOPERthat this feeds into the actual election day result.
00:18:16 JACK GAINESRight.
00:18:16 SAM COOPERAnd they told me officials from Beijing are not only working with these organized crime gambling networks, but they're directing them in election interference. So, yes, I think that was a great little story for me to break. I'm not looking for confirmation bias. I'm looking for corroboration, but I got it there. But it's nice to get a little confirmation bias once in a while.
00:18:33 JACK GAINESBut it's nice to get a little confirmation bias once in a while. Yeah, it is. Everyone likes a bone.
00:18:35 SAM COOPERYeah, it is. Everyone
00:18:38 SAM COOPERThey threw me a bone, Jack.
00:18:40 JACK GAINESWell, it's interesting because, as you know, the U.S. has a base in South Korea, and the Chinese know about it, and they didn't open their own base in Korea. They opened a casino right in the same area. And I was just like, man, how typical. Yeah. Because that way they're making money and they're able to do espionage at the same time instead of costing the Beijing government a dime. They're actually profitable as they conduct foreign policy and influence in the area. I have to admit, I think it's smart, but it's also the end result that they come out with is not a good society. Because if... Their free trade zones were successful and they started building casinos and pretty soon there's an illegal industry that's so powerful that it's swaying the government to its will. What ends up happening is you get this totalitarian financial government that really leaves out all of the public citizens and just runs things the way PRC wants. And it just doesn't handle well. Does that make sense? I see that as the problem with the PRC's model.
00:19:56 SAM COOPERYeah, no, I mean, that really resonates with me. I mean, first of all, you're exactly right. It is devilishly clever to use a casino that pays for itself, and they can use that for their gathering. But as you say, it's amoral, right? So, I really do believe that governments are a reflection of the people and the parties that the people elect. To get a little philosophical here, I mean, I think the Chinese Communist Party totally cut corners trying to catch up. And they are just in a moral operation. As I've reported, they leveraged these Hong Kong tycoons and said, look, you teach us how to do capitalism and we'll let you do your organized crime business and we'll profit together. But when you get in bed with the devil, there are other people around the world that don't like it. Right. And so, I think my struggle in Canada is. Maybe I've been a little bit at the tip of the spear. Maybe it's because the upbringing, my father went over to a school in Switzerland and was supposed to be a big businessman and diplomat. And he tossed that aside and became a Christian minister instead. And maybe he hammered it into me that there's good money and there is bad money. I really do believe that. And Beijing, in their mercantilism, they'll use any dirty type of business to try to... overcome governments in the Marshall Islands or what they're doing in Africa. And in Canada, it's my own view that for too long, our elites have turned a blind eye, or as I wrote, they've been willfully blinded to the downside of this Chinese mercantilism. And I do believe that when you see cities start to be overrun with tent encampments because of opioid addiction and fentanyl, you're now directly seeing the price that's paid for that trade -based money laundering. And as I've written, people that work honest jobs being pushed out of the center of cities in Canada because without any exaggeration, illicit flows from China have become material to prices of real estate in Vancouver and Toronto in the same way that the Latin cartels might have influenced real estate in Miami. You just don't win in the long run when organized crime starts to take a big chunk of your economy and they're working for a foreign government.
00:22:10 JACK GAINESSo where do you see Canada going?
00:22:12 SAM COOPERIt's hard for me to say where Canada will go because there's a Foreign Interference Commission coming up. It's actually going to start at the end of this month that will examine this election interference story that I broke with my former employer, Global News. and that I'm still writing on and still exposing every week for the Bureau. But I don't have a great degree of confidence, and many others don't, that the mandate of that commission is really set up to get to the bottom of the issue. I don't want to get into too much information here, but I've already done reports to the Bureau showing that a mandate only focusing on election interference at the federal election in the past two Canadian national elections. is literally only the tip of the iceberg of China's interference. And my stories through documents have proven that. So where does Canada go? Others that I've interviewed and quoted in my stories say, look, Canada, through no exaggeration, we're facing a saturation of China's influence and interference networks to the point where there's corruption. And Canada is in a position where we need to change some laws. We need more enforcement. for police so they can handle these organized crime networks. We don't have a RICO Act that is a racketeering act in Canada. We don't have a foreign agent registry, which, Jack, I'm sure you're aware, is the very key law that is used in every case so far in the Chinese police stations investigated by the Department of Justice in the United States. Canada lacks these laws, so I won't have any confidence that we're going to turn the corner until we have a government that... put some of these very basic modern laws against hostile state activity in place in Canada.
00:24:03 JACK GAINESDo you think that Canada is in danger of losing its 5i status because of the amount of influence? Or do you see still a core of law enforcement and military that's protecting civil society and protecting that intelligence cooperation? Or how deeply corrupt do you think the influence is? And do you think it is threatening Five Eyes?
00:24:28 SAM COOPERMy very basic answer is yes. I think Canada's status in the Five Eyes has already unofficially been downgraded. As you know, Jack, Canada has been left out completely out of AUKUS. And I do believe that part of the reason Canada is not at the big boys' table of the Western alliance... is that we have lost trust. We can just point to examples like this RCMP corruption Cameron Ortis case. Canada's highest intelligence official for law enforcement leaked secrets to international Hezbollah networks. As I've reported, there's another angle to the case. Cameron Ortis have leaked signals intelligence to Beijing. And so that's just one case. But I think this political infiltration... story is an even bigger reason why Canada has lost trust within the five eyes. And I would like to have confidence that the bond of the sort of post -World War II alliance will continue just out of tradition. But practically speaking, I just think it's natural that if Canada keeps going in this direction of having deep interference in each and every federal election, that it would only make sense that Washington starts to leave. out of conversations.
00:25:48 JACK GAINESOr constricting certain accesses.
00:25:51 SAM COOPERAbsolutely. It's only prudent that Washington should be starting to hold its cards closer to its chest. I know it's not very easy to say things like that diplomatically, but I just think these are the real conversations.
00:26:03 JACK GAINESNow, you also mentioned Hezbollah. And I remember in our last discussion, you mentioned that Hezbollah and I believe Iranian illicit networks are also had ties in Ottawa. Do you want to expand on that a little bit? And do you think that they're also collaborating with the PRC?
00:26:23 SAM COOPERWhat I know about Hezbollah really starts with my interest in the transnational money laundering story and how Canadian cities have just been overrun by Chinese networks. So, I started understanding that. And then I had conversations with people that were very involved in the DEA special operations. The DEA has a lot of intelligence around the world because they have access to these elite organized crime actors that have direct connectivity to Russia, Iran, Beijing. And so, through my sourcing, I understood that they were very at first surprised back in around 2008 to uncover that cartels in Colombia had direct relationships with Hezbollah actors. And then furthermore. Hezbollah, I was told, had agents in about five to six Canadian cities that were believed to have command and control of some global Hezbollah networks. And again, my U.S. sources said they went up to Ottawa and said, Canada, you've got a problem. Let's work together on this. We're working together with Australia.
00:27:40 SAM COOPERPeople running these transnational crime networks know that they can operate in Canada without getting wiretapped because our legal system just isn't set up that way. It's not very enforcement friendly. My sources in the States were just deeply shocked and confused that the RCMP couldn't cooperate with them and do taps on these Haskell operatives. So, I have followed the money laundering story. And as I was reporting on Cameron Ortis, I knew this was big, but... We started to hear more evidence come out that there were networks of Iran -connected currency traders in Toronto running literally billions of dollars through Canadian banks and offshore. One currency trader alone that's been named in an FBI case in California is also an organized crime that moved $3 .5 billion through Canadian banks for these Iranian Hezbollah slash organized crime drug money laundering global networks. Your question was, are they working with China? And my answer is I've seen open source that at some level, Iran and China are working together and they're wanting to see division between Canada and our allies on the Middle East issues. They're wanting to see Western ships blocked up by the Houthi rebels. Chinese ships can pass through there. So, yeah, I think China and Iran are working together.
00:29:09 JACK GAINESBeen an easy interview. Is there anything else you want to add or plug? I mean, we've talked about your book. We've talked about your site. Is there anything else you want to discuss?
00:29:21 SAM COOPERYeah, sure. I think a lot of people often ask me or say, Sam, at the Bureau or your previous work, you were at the cutting edge of reporting on some dangerous people in Canada. People often say, you know, does that get scary? Or do you or Canadian journalists? ever face threats. And Jack, just days after I testified in Ottawa about China's interference against Canadian politicians, Canadian intelligence had warned me as a journalist that Chinese operatives had been tasked in Canada to research my journalism and my networks and to look into my life. And a little bit ironically, maybe shockingly for me, a couple of days after my testimony, The RCMP warned me that they had a threat due to my reporting on the People's Republic of China. And Jack, it wasn't a comfortable experience, but what I want to tell you is I took some measures. I decided I'll find ways to cope for myself and those close to me. But what I'm reporting on must be pretty important if Canada's national security force is telling me that I'm angering China. I have to continue because I have more information. And I just think it's important for your listeners to know that. I'm a proud Canadian, but as I've said, we're at a point where some very deep and serious changes need to be made in this country so that we can get back to being a great Five Eyes partner.
-
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. In this episode Assad Raza hosts Henrique Garbino, Joao Mauricio Dias Lopes Valdetaro, and Jonathan Robinson as they discuss their paper and the competing concepts around civil military planning and operations.
You can find "Civil Military What?" online at:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/378267976_Civil-military_what_Making_sense_of_conflicting_civil-military_concepts
Special thanks for Nakaboncajon for posting pandeiro // bossa nova. Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npixMWE0QWk
---
00:00:06 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. Or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Also, today's guests would like to state that the comments in their interview are their opinions and represent themselves and no other organization. So let's get started.00:00:52 ASSAD RAZAWelcome to the 1CA podcast. I'm your host, Asad Raza. And today our guests are Henrique Gabino, Jonathan Robinson, and Jao Valdeterro. The authors of Civil Military What? Making Sense of Conflicting Civil Military Concepts. First, I really love your title. As a former civil affairs guy and working with the United Nations in the past, it really demonstrates the different perspectives that we have about civil military operations globally based off of these different lexicons that are out there. So before we start, can you quickly introduce yourselves with a little bit of background for our listeners?00:01:29 ENRIQUE GARBINO Yes, I can start, I guess. So Enrique Garbino and thank you for having us here. Before I start, kudos to João for the title. That's his creation. So I started off in the Brazilian Army as a combat engineer officer. So I was there for about 12 years. I joined to work with peacekeeping operations after my first deployment to Haiti. I worked with Show Brazil Peacekeeping Training Center, and there I was coordinating the military coordination course with João, who is here with us. And we realized there were a lot of confusions with different concepts, Brazilian concepts, UN concepts, American concepts, regarding civil military relations. I worked for different NGOs, for example, and was in The Hague Civil Military Cooperation Center of Exile, COE. I also worked with a comparison, conceptual analysis between EU and NATO civil military concepts. That was when the CCOE became the department head for semi -military cooperation for the EU as well. And now I'm at the Swedish Defense University, where I don't study semi -military relations, but I'm working the use of landmines by non -state groups, landmines, IEDs, booby traps, things like that.00:02:42 JOHNNY ROBINSONThank you. Who wants to go next, John or Jao? Yeah, I don't mind jumping in. Johnny Robinson, and I'm porting the U .S. Naval War College's Humanitarian Response Program. So a global fellow at Brown University's Center for Human Rights Humanitarian Studies. For that, I spent almost a decade working in the Middle East for various humanitarian conflict resolution and private entities. We focused on aid worker security systems for civil military coordination analysis for the Carter Center, Caritas, Switzerland, the International NGO Safety Organization, amongst others. As you can tell from my accent, I'm not originally from the U .S., but I was born in the U .K., but ended up in Prince, Rhode Island, marrying my wife. So, yeah, and I got part of the project. And so, yeah, we've been on this journey together for a few years now.00:03:34 ASSAD RAZAHey, John, thank you. One question. You talk about being a fellow at Brown University. Do you know Stanislava? Yes.00:03:40 JOHNNY ROBINSONYeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know Stanislav. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stanislav did an interview with her,00:03:40 ASSAD RAZAYeah,00:03:42 ASSAD RAZAdid an interview with her, I think, last year on her book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when Rambo meets the Red Cross kind of thing.00:03:48 JOHNNY ROBINSONmeets the Red Cross kind of thing. Like, wow, really, really good. Yeah, no, it's great. Yeah, it's great. Perfect,00:03:53 JOAO MAURICIO DIAS LOPES VALDETARO,John. Thank you. Thanks, Ata, for having us. And my background's a little different from both of them. I'm still in the Army for the last 21 years. I'm a major engineer reg in the Brazilian Army. I've been working in peacekeeping issues for 10 years already. So I shared, we've got, you know, we worked structures back there in the Brazilian Peacekeeping Operations Center. Regarding Civil Affairs, I had two deployments in Haiti. One of them, I was a platoon commander, but dealt a lot with CEMEC inside the Peacekeeping Mission. And my second deployment, I was T3 of the Brazilian Engineering Company, and also had a lot of publics to attend to. I've also been deployed at Central Africa Republic. We literally set up the first CEMEC branch in the Central African Army. And that's it. This paper has been worked for a while already, and I guess it's almost ready to be published.00:04:53 ASSAD RAZAJao, thank you for coming on. It seems like you have a wealth of experience. So let's get into the topic here. So in your opinion, based on your research, how have the definitions or applications of civil military concepts varied among the different organizations like the United Nations, the European Union, and NATO?00:05:10 ENRIQUE GARBINO This is Henrique. Could you take a quick look at the conceptual framework? like the concepts used by different organizations to organize the relationship between civilians and military actors there is room for a lot of confusion so i'm going to give us some examples so we can kind of visualize them more for example the u .s army civil affairs concept it's a military capability that tries to achieve the military mission through showing civilian actors right The UN civil -military coordination, so the concept used by military UN peacekeepers, is a similar approach. NATO civil -military cooperation is also similar. So you have civil affairs, military cooperation, civil -military coordination, three different terms that mean roughly the same thing. Of course, there are differences between them, but overall, they all mean the same military capability. And you can also have the same term that mean different things. For example, the UN mission has this semi -military coordination for military peacekeepers, but they also have the UN humanitarian semi -military coordination, which is a concept dedicated to promoting and preserving the humanitarian principles in the interaction between military and civilian humanitarian actors in crises and emergencies. So it's a very different thing. The European Union also have the semi -military coordination concept, so the same term, but it's about the coordination between the headquarters level, military bodies, and the civilian bodies in Brussels. So it's something completely different from the other two concepts. The same terms being used, meaning very different things. And then if you start a little digging deeper, you come up with different concepts that you don't really know in which basket you put them, like military civil fusion, a concept being used in China at the moment. Civic military unions, a concept we found in Venezuela. So it's really hard for someone who is not really familiar with that organization in particular to really understand what that term really means. It can get very confusing. And I think the irony here is that most of these civil military concepts, they have a shared understanding between civilians and military actors. The concepts cannot agree among themselves. So I think that's a bit ironic and that's a gap we try to fill.00:07:34 ASSAD RAZAAnd I think a lot of people are confused on the different concepts or the terminologies. I myself at times was a little confused. You know, I had the opportunity to work in northeastern Syria and we would coordinate the UN civil military coordination center that was in Jordan on humanitarian aid and trying to de -conflict HA that was coming in from the UN into Syria and some of our operations that not really having a good understanding could never got tied to what these organizations did at the time. So it was a bit confusing. But it was a British guy on the other end. So John, you know.00:08:03 JOHNNY ROBINSONYeah, no, I was on the other side, as it were, from you. So I came in from the humanitarian community. And so we also got confused as well by all the different terminologies and civil affairs versus SIMCORD versus SIMIC versus humanitarian -military interaction. And so, yeah, it's a cool problem, right? I think it shows that. It gets complex quite quickly when you have these multinational civilian military environments.00:08:30 ASSAD RAZAAbsolutely. So I know we talked about some of the challenges that you've experienced ourselves as practitioners on the ground. So is there any other challenges that we talk about that we might have missed?00:08:40 JOAO MAURICIO DIAS LOPES VALDETARO,Maybe you want to talk about Brazilian in Haiti. But it's the same as the Assad was saying. It was something that we used to do back in the old days, but we didn't call it civil affair. We had been doing that for a while. battalion to Haiti. The battalion commander was the man that, hey, send us your semi -mobster to the meeting. And then they were like, what's semi? We were dealing with local population. We were dealing with people in the Amazon forest. We were dealing with civil defense, but all different stuff. So when we arrived in Haiti, and we were teaching in the peacekeeping center, we had a lot of students who just arrived and say, oh yeah, we have this civil social action the army would do to the local population or dealing with local authorities. And when we started to study the UN SEMREC doctrine, it also developed through the time after the mission haze. Within the SEMREC doctrine, what we used to do as civil action, people were arriving in the mission in the beginning, and they were doing exactly the same that they were doing. back home, but we were able in the end to highlight what CIMIC was for them, and they started to do the right stuff. Not under the first contingent, but at least, I can say, half of the mission on, we were doing the right stuff in the head.00:10:12 ENRIQUE GARBINO I think another aspect of this issue is that what this is referring to is a military civic action. Before, it was done by a soldier in Damned Force. It's not a specialized function. You don't go to special training to do this. The army giving dental care or toys or food to the population. And then in the UN mission context, then you should do much more. You should partner with local organizations. You should not take the lead as a military actor. And those clashes of principles, clashes of modus operandi, that was visible. It's something you need to unlearn first so we could learn the new doctrine.00:10:50 ASSAD RAZAYeah, it seems like a really big challenge because you're trying to learn on the fly, on the ground, which causes frustration with some of the other participating organizations, right? Kind of going back to the biases that some people have, especially in a nonprofit NGO organization, like don't want to work in the military because of some of those challenges. So let's go into talking about your analytical tool, your concept that you guys develop. I know the paper, you were talking about like the four core parameters. So can you guys talk about your analytical tool? Yes, of course. Well, the main goal of the project was to come up with a way to sort different concepts so we can see which concepts are similar from each other,00:11:19 ENRIQUE GARBINO goal of the project was to come up with a way to sort different concepts so we can see which concepts are similar from each other, which ones are different, and also why. So we can learn from each other when comparing, for example, civil affairs experiences with NATO -specific experiences, but we cannot really compare EU and SYNCORDS, so the EU and humanitarian and humanitarian coordination with civil affairs. So this was an abductive process. So we would study a specific concept in detail, like go to the guidance documents, try to break it down into what it means. Then do the same thing for the second concept and the third concept, and then try to find current aspects of that concept. And we tried maybe 20 different parameters, but it boiled out to four, which are the perspective that the concept takes, the scope of the relationship between civilians and military, The level of applicability and the structure. So for the perspective, is it mainly a military concept? It's a concept that serves the military mission. Or is it a civilian concept? A concept that serves the work of civilian organizations. Or is it a joint concept that serves both in an equal level? In terms of scope, to where the relationship between military and civilian actors are placed. For example, is it about internal coordination? For example, I mentioned the European Union concept of civil -military coordination, and that's an internal scope because it's about coordination within the EU, not between the EU and external actors. Other concepts are mainly external, so it's about, for example, the humanitarian organization dealing with military external actors. Some concepts are both internal and external. For example, if you take the UN civil -military coordination concept used by military peacekeepers, That has both an internal component, which is about facilitating the relationship between the UN military component within the mission with the civilian and police components of the same mission. And an external component, so between UN military component and externals and million actors. In level capability, we chose the classical tactical operations strategic level. Some concepts are more in the Dewey aspects, more tactical. Others are more in a coordination operational level, and others are more in setting goals, decision -making processes, the strategic level concepts. Or some also pick up into all levels. The fourth parameter, which we call structure, is whether a concept is a mental tool, something to keep in mind when you're doing your work, or if it's a dedicated structure with personnel, resources, structures, procedures, capability. something that someone is in charge of. So these are the four core parameters, and we took those concepts used by the US, NATO, the UN, and the EU.00:14:17 ASSAD RAZAthe EU. I really like the way you broke it down. You've taken a complex problem and not going to say simplified it, but put it in a way that someone that's working in this space can see the differences or how to engage with these different types of organizations. I really like the main perspective, and I really like the structure. As a practitioner on the ground, we see these terminologies and our assumption is that there's a dedicated personnel there, right? That there's structures and resources dedicated to this mission, but at times not. It's almost ad hoc.00:14:48 ENRIQUE GARBINO Exactly. And I think that this problem becomes more emphasized when you come from a specific background, in your case, U .S. civil affairs. You expect that your counterpart has a similar understanding of what the concept means. But then you're going to work with an organization that doesn't have the civil military capability as a structure in the US context. So these clashes also happen because of your previous assumptions and experiences.00:15:13 ASSAD RAZAYeah, absolutely. We all have our own biases based off our own work experiences. So you kind of always default back to your perspective of how you utilize within your own military, taking that for granted and not really understanding outside of your inner circle.00:15:27 ENRIQUE GARBINO Exactly. Again, about analytical framework used by the US, EU, UN and NATO, we came up with four ideal concepts. And one of them is what we call semi -military relations or CMR. And that's mostly a strategic level principle, but it's mainly related to how relations should be conducted at a broader strategic level. So here we're talking about... The relationship between the Ministry of Defense and the President, for example, or the Amateur Forces in society as a whole, things like that. And the second concept is civil -military interaction, which is also a non -dedicated function, so there's no one in charge of that, but it's the everyday interaction between military and civilian actors. The idea is that if you are deployed as a soldier or a military actor in a crisis, If you were a cook, if you were a driver, if you were a planner, it doesn't matter. Then you're going to interact with your counterpart somehow in the checkpoint or during your patrol when you go to the groceries. It doesn't matter. And then you have two concepts that are dedicated functions. One takes the military perspective, which we call CIMIC, semi -military cooperation. So then US civil affairs, according to our... Definition would fall into this archetype. And the humanitarian counterpart, which is the military coordination concept, or CMCORD, which is also, again, a dedicated function on the humanitarian side, facilitating interaction between humanitarian actors and the military. Sometimes it may just share information and ensure that humanitarians are not in the same time and space as the military. And sometimes they can be more cooperative activities as necessary and as suitable for the region. So with these different concepts, we can categorize them like that.00:17:27 ASSAD RAZAThank you, Henrique. I really like your framework and the archetypes that you just mentioned right here. In your view, do you see NATO or the UN or someone implement it in their doctrines?00:17:38 ENRIQUE GARBINO I hope so, but I don't want to be too ambitious about it. I think that more than anything else, this could be used as a training and education tool. So what organization can make sense of down -drop training and how it relates to others?00:17:53 JOAO MAURICIO DIAS LOPES VALDETARO,One important thing, you're going to be deployed, you're going to find organization max, Y, and Z. So we can go there and at least get an initial idea how that organization will work and if they have a dedicated function. And also because of that, we put all the references. Or if you want to go deep on that specific organization, the main reason... or the fact sheets, exactly that. So I'm going to be deployed it. I want to know how that specific organization that I will follow on the ground works. So at least you're going to have an initial idea on how they work, how they organize, and if they're going to have a point of contact.00:18:32 ENRIQUE GARBINO Well, their feedback was that there's a good approach to looking to different concepts, protection of civilians, for example, as it is stood by the UN versus NATO versus other organizations. or other similar buzzwords used in crisis response. And also some criticism. Okay, so what about the police? How is the police included in this study? And this is a shortcoming we acknowledge in the research that we consider police to fall into the civilian category and black box it there, but there is a way for more research. And it's something that if my main takeaway from this whole project is how many questions we got by conducting this research. And so I think we have a wealth of research questions for the future.00:19:17 ASSAD RAZAAbsolutely. I think you brought something important to the surface because I think for some countries, for example, Panama only has police, but they do also want to get into the UN type mission sets too. So how would they apply this not being military? I think a lot more questions can arise once we start seeing a lot more different capabilities from our partner nations.00:19:36 JOHNNY ROBINSONYeah. I mean, I think that was our hope that, you know, people could really use this as a jumping off point. as a tool to start those discussions. You know, we're not trying to say this is the exact way to interpret or use these concepts, but it can be used as a starting point to then compare and contrast the different concepts and hopefully allow for that cooperation to happen more. That was exactly my point. Thanks a lot. Can you kind of talk a little bit about your main findings?00:20:01 ENRIQUE GARBINO you kind of talk00:20:02 JOHNNY ROBINSONa little bit about00:20:02 ENRIQUE GARBINO your main findings? The main finding here is that the four concepts seem to be comprehensive enough. properly fulfilled. And I thought it was interesting, the terms being used, we didn't explore why certain terms are used versus others, but that's what I meant as well. We found that the concept, the term civil -military relations was used to signify all the four archetypes. So we had, for example, the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement uses the concept of civil -military relations. along with what we understand as civil -military relations, the strategic level interaction between military and civilians. We also have a known state army group, the More Islamic Liberation Front, for example, that uses civil -military relations as a concept to signify a military capability. We also have CARE International, NGO, that uses CMR, humanitarian and civil -military coordination. So this unilateral humanitarian capability to ensure that humanitarian principles are protected. And then you also have Caritas Internationali's concept of relations with the military, more of a semi -military interaction, the idea that this are non -educated concept that is present in everyday interaction between the militarians and the military in a crisis context. So the same concept or the same term, CMR being used to signify or the other four ideal types. In some terms, you can really see there is an intention about how strong the link between civilians and military is intended. So, for example, you see military -civil fusion, and before that, civil -military integration, which is about capabilities supporting the military effort. So, it's really about joining forces towards land security goal. So you can see that terms used also signify how strong the links between the two sides of the relationship. Some concepts are a bit more into the extreme, which start to be a bit more neutral, like similar military affairs, similar interaction, coordination, and others are a bit more into doing action, similar military cooperation, similar collaboration, similar engagement. So it's interesting to see how these terms vary. A final comment here is that there is a... Clear convergence in the terminology used in the CIMIC category, so the military concepts. Basically, most of them are either following the U .S. tradition called civil affairs, especially in Latin America, so all of these countries have the civil affairs label to it, and civil military cooperation following the NATO tradition, so the CIMIC variant. So it's understandable if you think about interoperability, if you think about multinational deployments within NATO, EU, UN, and other multilateral organizations. So that's no surprise in that. What I think is interesting is that on the other side, in the humanitarian sector, then there is a clear divergence of terms. It seems like every organization wants to be unique.00:23:23 ASSAD RAZAThat's interesting. I like the point that you brought about interoperability and the convergence of CIMIC or civil affairs within the allies, NATO. some of our partners in the Western Hemisphere. And my assumption is that the divergence piece coming from the humanitarian actors, does that contribute to some of the confusion on the military side?00:23:41 ENRIQUE GARBINO I've had the opportunity to work with the International Great Trust. It's an organization that does not have humanitarian -military interaction nowadays. And before it's a military coordination, they are unique. They are their own thing, which is interesting. It also makes sense from a humanitarian perspective. They've tried to keep their neutrality as much as possible. Working with the military or working with military counterparts, negotiating access, doing visits of prisons of war, delivering aid in territories occupied by another group, this is the bread and butter of the organization. Every job in their COC were supposed to do that. So for that organization, it doesn't make quite sense to have an overarching concept to coordinate that because that's what everybody's doing already. So what I think that this study shows where there might be a gap, it also pretends to understand why is this the case. But of course, this can cause confusion. If you apply as a civil affairs officer expecting to find a counterpart in a humanitarian organization, you most likely will be frustrated because most of them don't have it. And if you're expecting... that your experience working with EU and OCHA is going to be the same when you're working with WSP or with the RCSC or with any other organization, you're going to be frustrated again. So you have to relearn as you go, and that's something that we hope to facilitate with the fact checks.00:25:09 ASSAD RAZAHenrique, thank you. That's a really good example about ICRC and coordination with the military. So you've identified some conceptual gaps there. Are there any other challenges you want to talk about?00:25:21 JOAO MAURICIO DIAS LOPES VALDETARO,One thing that we found also is that not all the doctrines or concepts that they find are totally developed. I can say that. So even though when they talk to some people and say, oh, yeah, so we had the manual, we know what we had to do, but we don't have it specifically already developed within the organization. They know what they had to do, but they're not doing it yet.00:25:51 JOAO MAURICIO DIAS LOPES VALDETARO,Civil military doctrine you follow. We follow the U .S. one. Okay, do we have our own medals? No, no, no. We just follow the U .S. one. So, some countries also had this figure for the U .S. Army or the U .S. doctrine. And they're still following or they're still trying to develop their own doctrine or their own way to do stuff.00:26:11 ASSAD RAZAWow. Yeah, that's interesting. Some nations don't have their doctrine. They're following U .S. doctrine. Ones that do have doctrine aren't seeing and training their forces to be able to implement that doctrine. There's a lot of competing priorities and sometimes coordination aspect of civil relations kind of go to the wayside as they focus on other things. So, JV, thank you on that. Any other challenges you guys want to talk about?00:26:36 ENRIQUE GARBINO Maybe to use this framework to identify conceptual gaps within an organization. And if you look, for example, into the UN system, We found within the UN four different concepts. So you have the UN -SIMIC, you have the UN -CM -CORD, and WSP has its own military interaction concept, and before that had the simulatory coordination concept, which is similar to SIM -CORD, but tailored to the specifics of WSP. And here you can see that all of these concepts are at the operational levels. So there is no overarching strategic level semi -military relations concept, for example, we see in the organization. Does this mean that they need one? That's up for debate. There are other concepts that can be used to fill this gap, like comprehensive approach concept. Try to organize not only the semi -military relations at a strategic level, but the civilian and civilian relations and the military and military relations in a specific context. So it's a broader, beyond semi -military concept. But that could fill this gap, for example. We also saw the UN doesn't have a civil military interaction concept that aims at facilitating the everyday interaction between civilians and military, even though they are not specialized. The relationship between a UN peacekeeper, a civilian UN staff, this concept doesn't exist in the UN. But also think of NATO. It would be interesting to apply our framework to all semi -related concepts of NATO members and see how they match with the NATO standards. Or when one specific organization is deploying into a multinational organization, let's say Brazil deploying to a peacekeeping mission, how does the Brazilian concept matches or differs from the UN concept? And that you can identify and foresee some challenges. in how that member organization is going to adapt to the concept. Here we can foresee some practical challenges, for example. If a U .S. civil affairs officer who is used to receive strategic level guidance on their business, they deploy to a UN peacekeeping mission, then UN CIMIC, which is the equivalent of civil affairs, there is no presence at the strategic level. So they have no specific guidance. from a strategic level on that matter. So they have to sort it out themselves at the operational level. This is just some examples that how our framework can be useful for this type of analysis as well.00:29:20 ASSAD RAZAIt's a perfect sense. People conducting their analysis to see how they're going to engage the different type of concepts that are out there. They're going to engage with their partners for academics operationally flowing to an area to identify some of the challenges on the ground. I think it's a really good tool. So in the future, how do you envision this tool being utilized across the different organizations?00:29:41 JOHNNY ROBINSONYeah, I don't mind taking this upon this. Throughout that probability, I think it's a really valuable tool to highlight the differences, similarities, and that can build relations, right? If similar ways of approaching certain problems or challenges within those civil military concepts, I see value. I think it's also... interesting discussion to have looking at the difference between the humanitarian community and how they've approached largely on the operational and tactical level to civil military interaction, coordination, cooperation, whatever you want to call it. Whereas on the military side, it's more of a top -down strategic operational tactical. And I think kind of, you know, where that can meet in the middle is where great coordination and cooperation can happen. In terms of future, I'd love to take the project and look at the civil military training opportunities around the world from different entities, civilian and military, and to also understand that ecosystem. I think that also has value if there's redundancy or occasion of efforts or complementary efforts in places. I think that would be great, particularly for the humanitarian civilian community. Often don't have such a good perspective of what training opportunities. there are out there it's also good to highlight that the fact sheets are made by us we read the concept we read the trend and we came up with the fact sheets so the fact sheets don't apply the organization so our interpretation a specific concept would be good too for someone who are going to be deployed it for someone who wants to study a little bit more specific about that country or that concept itself00:31:02 JOAO MAURICIO DIAS LOPES VALDETARO,out there it's also good to highlight that the fact sheets are made by us we read the concept we read the trend and we came up with the fact sheets so the fact sheets don't apply the organization so our interpretation a specific concept would be good too for someone who are going to be deployed it for someone who wants to study a little bit more specific about that country or that concept itself00:31:30 ENRIQUE GARBINO Definitely. And organizations use these concepts in a consistent way. If we expand the research or the framework and start looking into how the media or even academia uses concepts, it's often that in one paper, the author wants to come up with a concept that is really specific to what they're studying on that particular publication. And then they come up with something different. If we expand an academia, then the number of concepts would skyrocket. That's for sure. So there's much less consistency there. When you strive for specificity, we also lose the shared language to relationship between civilians and military actors. And I think that's the greatest irony.00:32:12 ASSAD RAZAEnrique, that's a good point. The more people you have involved, including academia, media, and more snowball into something bigger and cause a lot more confusion from what you were trying to do is simplify it and have something consistent throughout the different organizations that are working in this civil arena or humanitarian space. that have all these different actors. So that makes perfect sense. Gentlemen, I really want to thank you for taking your time to share your research on this important topic. I've been being a civil affairs guy on the ground before and seeing some of these different concepts. at a time as a young officer not really having an understanding of these different concepts. I think this is a really important research and I really appreciate you guys creating this analytical framework and I hope it gains traction within the different organizations that are working in this space. So thank you for your time and I really appreciate it and we'll see you on the ground somewhere. Thank you. Thanks for listening.00:33:02 Closelistening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA podcast.
-
Brian Hancock hosts Brad Hughes in a two-part discussion on how Civil Affairs and the 38G civil society programs are helping the U.S. in its foreign policy outreach in the Pacific. This is part one of two.
Brad Hughes Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradfordhughes/
Brian Hancock Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-j-hancock/
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail dot com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
Special thanks to DrSaxLove for the sample of "Nearness of You." Found on Cocktail Party - 40s Music. Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvH-nbindvk
------
Credits
Sponsor: Civil Affairs Association
Host: Brian Hancock
Showrunner / editor: Jack Gaines
---
00:00:07 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:47 BRIAN HANCOCKWelcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I'll be your host for the session. Today we have with us Colonel Bradford Hughes to discuss innovative training for civil affairs functional specialty teams, or FXSP. building partner capacity, and military governance experimentation. Colonel Hughes, welcome to the show.00:01:07 BRADFORD HUGHES It is great to be here, and I am excited to talk about the civil affairs and specifically initiatives with the 38 Golf Program.00:01:16 BRIAN HANCOCKOh, outstanding. That is one of the greatest developments that's happened to civil affairs in a long time, and there's a huge appetite out there to hear more about that, and I know you will definitely do that justice. I've had the pleasure of working with you. Some in the audience haven't. Let me tell everybody a little bit about you. Colonel Bradford Hughes is a 38 Gulf military government specialist, often likes to refer to himself as Brad. He is skilled at building partnerships, articulating a vision, and positioning value. As a former Master Army Aviator and UH -60 maintenance test pilot, he led multiple combat and humanitarian relief deployments across the world. Colonel Hughes serves as the government functioning specialty chief of the 351 Civil Affairs Command in Mountain View, California, where his team employs a civilian acquired skills and operates in the interagency intergovernmental environment to deepen the influence across the Pacific. He is also a certified gender advisor, leading efforts with the command to mainstream gender perspectives. into planning and operations. Just a quick reminder to the audience that all the remarks by Colonel Hughes and myself are solely ours. All right. Now, it's been several years since we have worked together. You apparently have been very busy there building an amazing functional specialty team at 351 and developing the 38 golf program.00:02:50 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah, for sure. And before we get started, I just wanted to take a moment and really thank the previous commanding general for the 351st Civil Affairs Command, Brigadier General Retired Chris Zubek. Yeah. His focus was getting civil affairs capabilities across the international dateline so we can execute in the Pacific. With our new CG, that's Brigadier General Brian Horton, I think we've achieved this. And we are working towards refining how we engage and truly leverage the value proposition of Army Reserve Civil Affairs. And also, I wanted to give a shout out to Colonel Chris Cray and his 364 Frontier Civil Affairs Brigade and his team's work with Pacific Frontier 24.00:03:37 BRIAN HANCOCKOutstanding. Good things happening everywhere. The Pacific is the biggest place in DOPECON, the largest combatant command. And unfortunately, it's not full of countries that are all identical. In fact, they're all unique. So it's a very challenging problem set. Love to hear what's going on. I know we're going to be talking more about that. For those who are just tuning in, can you tell the audience a little bit about your role at 351 Civil Affairs Command as the functioning special team chief? You know, what's a duty day like for you?00:04:10 BRADFORD HUGHES for you? I do consider myself an entrepreneur. I direct operations for an all on -demand helicopter charter company. We serve an interesting portfolio of clients from Tesla and University of Texas Athletics. There's another hookup for you, NASCAR, and even the San Antonio Spurs. I also do work as a technology transfer consultant where I provide clients with intellectual property management and we make market -based recommendations. I bring that up because the cross -cutting component really between my civilian and military roles is that I think I'm competent at identifying trends and seizing opportunity. And with that, the opportunity to advance civil affairs, the enterprise at every opportunity is incredibly important for myself into recruiting and retaining top talent. I like to think I function as a brand ambassador. I strive to build readiness by developing innovative opportunities that build cross -component, joint, and combined synergy. All efforts lead to continued refinement of the government function specialty team, FXSP interoperability across KCOM, music KPOC, and unified action partners. So together, that's what gives me great satisfaction.00:05:31 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd that's a critical mission. I also love the way that you brought up the critical civilian skill sets that are required here. Whether it's large -scale combat operations, coin operations other than war, there is a desperate need for us to interface effectively with host nations, civil authority. That's where strategic victory lies. We'll talk a little bit more about that later. And you have just impeccable civilian credentials. I really wish on our board process that they would consider our civilian credentials as reservists, but perhaps something for human capital management in the future, but certainly they're essential for a 38 golf. Of course.00:06:13 BRADFORD HUGHES And I think we'll talk a little bit about this towards the end, but getting back to the golf program, it's currently structured with multiple skill identifiers. There's 18 of them. that target specific skill sets nested within various government function specialty areas. So these can range from commerce to archivists, transportation, and everything in between. So the Gulf program is a Army Reserve program that complements the active component. And military government officers, yes, subject matter experts, they're technically qualified, their experience, and a little bit of the company line here. They advise, enable, and assist commanders, and importantly, direct civilian counterparts with stabilizing and providing governance expertise. One thing I've always stressed is I think that capability should reside at the KCOMs just based on strategic significance of the goals, but there is force structure down to the battalions. But again, we, the 351, we try to pull that capability up to the KCOMs. I think that's where we can truly leverage the expertise of the goals.00:07:22 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, that makes sense to me. I know Brigadier General Zubik, who has recently departed, he developed a plan for digital reconnaissance, digital reachback, leveraging some of those capabilities at Echelon. So it makes sense to house things there, especially if there's a capability that can be delivered in time and space as required to all of the maneuvering elements. So that makes good sense to me. Let me ask you a little bit about this. I've had the pleasure, you know, working here at a four -star command. Lieutenant General Jody Daniels comes by periodically. Sometimes she does a town hall, and then she presents new information. One time she came out and talked about one of her recent publications, very, very interesting, a very accomplished senior leader. And one of the things that she's been saying is she wants our TPU, our troop program units in the reserve, to conduct novel training. And to experiment, she's not married to the traditional one weekend a month, two weeks a year type of battle assembly format. Now, I understand that you have done something with that at 351, that you've embraced that opportunity. Can you tell the audience a little bit about your efforts there? And, you know, if you're willing, share some results.00:08:37 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that resource allocation, to me, is negatively impacting Campo 3 or Army Reserve culture. As I mentioned, the golf program, we recruit experts from across the country. And we may have somebody on the East Coast that's interested in what the 351 is doing in the Indo -Pacific AOR. But because of the reduction in resources, I think many are starting to feel a little bit underserved. And because of these reductions, we've acknowledged the challenges. And now we collectively, our team comes to Mountain View once per quarter. And we call that a traditional non -battle assembly approach. We feel that this approach may become the norm for both use of KPOP and really across the Army Reserve. And I could get into the blocking and tackling of it. We look at it as a three -legged stool organized around fiscal year quarters. So looking at the three months per quarter, month one, we come in for mandatory collective training. And that's where we come in for the non -negotiable. Training events. So thank ranges, ACFT, things where we need full -time support. And we have some of the non -negotiable FXSP events like heart training, disaster management, JAUC is through USAID. That's month one. We hit those non -negotiables. Month two, and I think collectively we learned coming out of the pandemic that individual readiness, professional development, things like that. are easier to accomplish at your home of record. It doesn't make sense to come to Mountain View to do an SGLV or DD93, PHAs, stuff like that. You can get after that at the house. Well, isn't IPSA supposed to make that go away? That's a good question. I will defer. I'm still waiting. I've got to defer to the human resources experts for that. While you're at the house, continuing education needed for professional credentialing, networking, knowledge building, all that stuff can be done at the house. Or research tasks. I think you spotlighted that a little bit. Initiatives or projects that we're trying to advance. And then quickly, the month three, we call it EPO driven. So an EPO is an exercise planning officer or NCO. And either he or she will make a determination on the location. We assign an EPO to an exercise or engagement, and it's that person's responsibility to do everything for theater entry to get that team downrange. So the EPO is going to make the call, hey, does that bring us to Mountain View? Yeah. Where we need full -time support or access to systems or maybe an alternate location to secure official passports. There may be SIF or Sarnet access someplace else other than Mountain View where it makes sense for the team. participating in whatever the exercise or engagement is to go there. Stakeholder coordination as examples. So three -legged stool broken down by fiscal year quarters. That's how we're getting after it.00:11:48 BRIAN HANCOCKThat makes sense. I was worried you're going to hit me with Colonel Lykes' ins ways and means on that stool there, but glad that it went in a different direction. And thanks also for mentioning the importance of the government passport. Many folks out there in the military, at least in Campo 3, don't have the opportunity to travel as far and wide as some of the civil affairs soldiers do. And many of the nations they're going to, a government passport is actually not required. But many countries, especially some of these small island nations in the Pacific, most of Africa, etc., you're not going to get there on a government mission without a government passport. And I know that you've cracked the code on how to get that. If an emergent mission comes up, I can send the team pretty fast,00:12:32 BRADFORD HUGHES can't you? We can. And we cracked the code last year and then things change. I will tell you that the majority of team members have their passports, but then we'll get caught up short with a visa requirement. And suddenly we've got to expedite that in order to get the team down range. I will mention too, just as a cost savings measure, we'll also encourage team members to drill with neighboring units. National Guard in Arizona, they may be conducting an ACIT. We have soldiers who are close. They'll go there and execute. And it also allows us to broadcast the capabilities of the 38 Gulf, whether it's to the Guard, other compo three units, active duty. So we look at it as an opportunity for folks to showcase their expertise to a new audience.00:13:18 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd that's fantastic. As you're well aware in civil affairs, we don't have lieutenant level positions. We're always having to take folks from an entry MLS and invite them to the team and get them to cross over. So it's fantastic that you're spreading, you know, evangelizing the awesome mission that we have. It's amazing when you tell people the things that you get to do at Battle Assembly as a civil affairs soldier versus the things that they do. Oftentimes the program just sells itself. Yeah, for sure. And I don't think the money situation is getting any better.00:13:49 BRADFORD HUGHES don't think the money situation is getting any better. And we'll continue with this non -traditional BTA approach. It's working for us. And I really think it's going to be the new model.00:13:59 BRIAN HANCOCKbe the new model. Outstanding. I suspect we're going to see more of that from other units moving forward. Let's switch gears for a second. I know many of the folks in the audience are not aware of that secret gem for training we have in Combo 3, known as innovative readiness training. IRT. I understand that 351 Civil Affairs Command actually has been heavily involved in the IRT program and a number of missions. In fact, I believe your team has even won some awards for IRT missions. Can you tell the audience out there, what is an IRT mission? How do you access that? How do you find those opportunities? And who can participate? For instance, can U .S. Marine Corps Civil Affairs participate in IRT missions? Can non -civil affairs units who may be listening to this podcast, can they take advantage of IRT missions?00:14:51 BRADFORD HUGHES I think IRT is open to the reserve component writ large, so COMPO2 and COMPO3. And I think, don't hold me to it, but I think it's also open to other reserve formations. So yeah, the Marine Corps could be a Navy Air Force. But it is a reserve activity. And the Office of Secretary of Defense, OSD, has established the Innovative Readiness Training Civil -Military Partnership Program. We call it IRT for short. And for us, civil affairs, it offers us to exercise government function specialty nets. You know, so the things we need to train on and enhance readiness. And like you mentioned, we first caught wind of IRT in 2020, so in the throes of the pandemic. And there was a community in the Illusion, specifically the community of Unalaska, that wanted to bring in civil affairs practitioners to do an assessment of their community. Kind of a commerce play. The community was divesting or wants to divest from fishing and also try to leverage the national security implications of that region. So we went there in 2020. And I appreciate the shout out. We did win an award that year for the Civ Military Partnership of the Year. And now we're back this year, FY24, and the Arctic and Russia, China, and the United States have considerable interest in the region and the expansion of northern sea realms. There's a nexus there for cooperation or a flashpoint for conflict. So that's why we're there. We're focused on the central importance of Alaska and the Aleutians. Right. The critical role of infrastructure and the grid power competition. And it's really being viewed through our lens as government function specialty practitioners.00:16:44 BRIAN HANCOCKSpeaking of conflict, while you were there, I seem to recall I saw a news article and also some imagery that. Russian naval units actually came into the territorial waters of the Aleutians there and forced our American shipping out of those waters so that they could conduct military exercises. So it seems like not only do multiple nations have interests there, some of them are burning pretty aggressive in that space.00:17:22 BRADFORD HUGHES The activities by those players, our competitors, really have the community concerned and other stakeholders larger than Alaska, obviously. And we're there to provide them the direction. They're challenged with governance. It's just interesting in that region. It's very tribal. We were invited by the Kwajalein tribe. It's a native tribe in Alaska, and they collaborate with the city. So you've got the city and how it's organized, and then they also have a corporation. So they call it the Trilad. And from a governance perspective, we're there sharing best practices on how they can collaborate better. Mention private partner partnerships with respect to grant writing, finding financing, things like that for projects that they want to advance. We can help them. realize some of those things. So it's been interesting. We were back up there in February of this year. I went on that trip. And then we had two of our energy officers there last month. And as a matter of fact, we had a call yesterday. They're working, when I say they, the community on a interesting geothermal project that's tied to the Mercutian volcano. It's an active volcano. Part of the island chain. They want to tap into that. So if that Yeah. Geothermal project is built. You know, what does that mean for the Navy, for the Coast Guard? Would they be willing to establish more of a permanent presence? And that's something the community would like to see.00:18:57 BRIAN HANCOCKcommunity would like to see. Given the activity of adversaries in that region, which I suspect is going to continue to increase with the melting of the polar ice caps and that northern sea route is becoming more and more accessible, the Alaskan Coast Guard is overwhelmed. They have more. disasters and rescues than any state in the United States by a good majority, plus a greater coastline overall to manage when you include the outlying islands. So they're heavily tapped. They're probably not going to be in a position to stop aggressive navies. And you know why I love the army. I think we probably need some help from our friends in the Navy to keep our territorial borders safe there.00:19:42 BRADFORD HUGHES The community is really trying to position themselves as an attractive basing option for the Navy. And then with just a little bit more color on the IRT program, I think what we're doing as civil affairs practitioners is unique. Typically, IRT, you'll see it on the southwest border. You'll see it on CONUS -based tribal lands. It's nurses, doctors administering vaccines, or there could be small engineering projects, think building a road. something like that. I think what we're doing, civil affairs, we're operating as a consultancy and we're providing in partial perspective that second set of eyes that the community is interested in to advance things that are important to know.00:20:25 BRIAN HANCOCKthat are important to know. Yeah, outstanding. I mean, there's always one of the areas I was kind of a little bit jealous of the National Guard because they got to do a lot of missions to support American citizens within our own territory. But in COMPO3, we have that same opportunity here. through the IRT program. And I know we're going to be hearing more about some of the successes of your team in that area in the years to come. Let's start with what every ground pounder loves to talk about, which is the role of the military in competition. I'm sure you saw February 10th, 2023, the joint staff published the joint concept for competing. This was actually a landmark document as it represents. one of the first publications in a DACA format, which recognizes the conflicts that the United States and our allies are actually in and will be in for the foreseeable future, rather than the World War II -style conflicts that we have built the force to win. Now, given the Joint Chief's Title X responsibility, one would expect a host of changes across doctrine, organization, training, material, leadership, and education. personnel, facilities, and policy to come from this. What has actually happened is silence from the military community. Very little change has been initiated by this revolutionary document. The joint concept for competing recognizes that the strategy of our adversaries is to win without fighting. So, building large combat formations to go into blunt contact may not be the best investment if that is really their strategy. And when I think about this concept of win without fighting, I have flashbacks to that visual capital analysis video that you presented actually years ago at the Civil Affairs Association annual convention. In the video, it showed how through trade agreements, economic investment, etc., China was reshaping the global order in their favor. Do you remember that?00:22:27 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah, I do. It was innovation as a weapon system. And Brian, before we leave IRT, I've got to let the audience know that you were part of that initial engagement in 2020. And that award is just as much yours as it was the entire team. So if I hadn't, thank you again for that support. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. For sure. I'll try to frame my answer through a 38 golf lens and really. You talk about the future and as the army looks to the future and considers its ability to perform military government operations. So that's what we do as 38 golfs. The army has got to embrace a pool of golf personnel. This is important. We're civilian component oriented, culturally attuned and engagement focus. I like to consider it a cohort of experts with a strong understanding of stabilization activities. Yeah. And I think that gets back to the winning without fighting. Today's military government specialist has the tools required to help the army gain the critical governance support capacity it needs in the face of emerging challenges to the current global order and the geostrategic nature of our competition. And this is where I am building and pushing the team to advance this critical capability is where I hold great passion. And I recognize that this is the six inches in front of our face right now. And I think we've been successful.00:23:51 BRIAN HANCOCKI know we're going to talk about some of those specific successes coming up. Continuing to talk about competition, we're going to be in competition 99 % of the time. Sure. We both know that 99 % of the military's resources, including the Army, is not directed towards competition. In competition, it's generally not acceptable to, you know, bomb folks. And the reality is, in the military, it's often easier to drop a JDAM on something than it is to send out a text or a tweet. That's something that I know we're working on. But if we're really going to compete, if we're going to defeat a strategy of winning without fighting, then we have to be able to inoculate civil populations to the type of mis - and disinformation, the type of propaganda, the type of shaping. the type of casus bellies used to invite war, and that's going to require a lot of non -lethal capabilities, including what we used to refer to as information -related capabilities. Within that construct, civil affairs is one of the few military capabilities that's actually optimized for non -lethal influence effects. But I certainly saw the latest R -Struck was published not long ago, and when I took a look at that, at least in the soft cuts, what I'm seeing is that the Army is continuing to buy up risk in competition by continuing its slow program of divestiture of civil affairs forces. We've lost, for instance, all of our Comp 1 civil affairs forces as of FY26. This seems to me to be a disconnect, actually, in building a force capable of defeating the enemy's actual strategy versus what we're resourcing. If you see a disconnect, Why do you think that is?00:25:47 BRADFORD HUGHES You know, it's unfortunate that civil affairs is unfunded to the level it is. And I like to think of, I've got to remain positive. And I like to think of a value proposition, again, tying it back to the golf program, where we can realize that value proposition is building partner capacity. That is the vital tool for the U .S. to compete with great power adversaries. We are choosing to engage where adversaries do not. Security partnerships, alliances, as you just pointed out, they're unique and complex, adaptive systems. And you kicked off with this, especially with some of the smaller Pacific Island countries. We've been across COFA and we've seen that these countries display certain characteristics at the local level that are non -linear. Display system -wide emergent properties that our cohort, they have the systems -based expertise, we think at least, to implement building partner capacity through security cooperation, which contributes to the local and regional stability that we need to be successful in this period of competition. And it importantly adds credence to integrated deterrence. And that is the value proposition of the golf program. Civil affairs, again, we are obviously civil affairs practitioners. That's how I think we can be good partners and have meaningful impact.00:27:16 BRIAN HANCOCKimpact. I'll let you continue your thought in one second. And then, of course, I'm going to ask you about some examples of some of those real world missions that you're doing to these small nations. I know the audience wants to hear about that. It just seems to me, though, that we are very challenged institutionally as an organization to.00:27:36 BRIAN HANCOCKunderstand what shaping is outside of lobbing artillery rounds. Because that's winning without fighting, right? That's Sun Tzu's bloodless ultimate victory. For sure. He is defeating the enemy first, then going to war, right? The non -lethal capabilities of which CA is in high demand, it's very popular, very well received by post nations and partners in most cases, is one of those few capabilities. And it allows us to do those invisible shaping fires of influence that lead to things like access basing and overflight that help us set the theater for conflict if it occurs, for robust alliances, which are very powerful at deterring aggression. If Ukraine had been in NATO, they wouldn't be attacked and in so much difficulty right now. It's fantastic for generation of goodwill. It makes economic sense. All of these things have a nexus in positive, non -lethal influence. Now, with that said, can you tell the audience, some of which are going to be folks who don't necessarily believe in influence, that they believe in hard power, what are some of the effects that you have seen from what amounts to non -lethal fires that you've been doing in DOPECOM to generate positive influence for the United States and for our allies.00:29:09 BRADFORD HUGHES You know, I've got three recent engagements as of this calendar year to talk about, but I think where our team makes money is we're able to identify a community -based organization who they're... informal influencers and pick the country, right? And who's to say that when needed, one of these community -based organizations, they may have the ability to deliver results if ABO becomes an issue. I'm not saying that's the case. We're very vocal in some regards. And then we're meeting with ministers and others, but we're trying to build relationships across the spectrum. And you never really know when you might need to cash in that relationship. So I think that's important.00:29:58 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, but you have to invest before you can reap, right? And I think that's what I'm hearing your civil affairs teams are doing out there in the field. For sure.00:30:06 BRADFORD HUGHES And I think that also gets back to compo three, because we just stay on our positions a little bit longer. There's not as much churn as the active component sees. True. We're able to... build these relationships, right? It could be as simple as a phone call or a text or WhatsApp to a partner in the Philippines, a partner in Palau, like, hey, how's it going? And that's meaningful. It goes a long way and I think it goes further than a lot of people think.
00:00:52 BRIAN HANCOCKFor sure, and I think that also gets back to Compo 3 because we just stay on our positions a little bit longer. There's not as much churn as the active component sees. We're able to build these relationships, right? It could be as simple as a phone call or a text or WhatsApp to a partner in the Philippines, a partner in Palau, like, hey, how's it going? And that's meaningful. It goes a long way and I think goes further than a lot of people think. Just checking in, keeping that relationship top of mind.00:01:21 BRADFORD HUGHES top of mind. And I understand these missions go well beyond that, actually giving medical treatment, helping set up hospitals and clinics. building out governance capacity. And I'm sure you can give the audience many other examples of stuff your team's been involved in. Yeah, for sure.00:01:38 BRIAN HANCOCKWe have three team members right now in the Philippines. So we have our ag business team, 38 golf, six uniforms. So they're experts in ag business. And within that group, we have a veterinarian. who's working some animal husbandry issues in the Philippines, and we have some soil experts working with the Filipinos to increase yield. I'm not entirely sure what the crop is, but that's important and that's really meaningful. Absolutely. There's been an interesting mission regarding art repatriation. I don't want to get too deep into it, but there was some art looted. Monuments, man. Monuments, man. So we have a six -victor cohort, heritage preservation. There was some art that was looted during World War II that belongs to Okinawa. The art was discovered in the Boston area. Very long story short, we've repatriated it. And this is across all the KCOMs. This was driven by use of KPOC. But we are sending a practitioner back next week. For the repatriation ceremony, the artists landed in a museum in Okinawa, and the people there are excited to have this art come back. The FBI Arts Crime Division has been involved with this, the Air Force, and a host of others. And we're also sending teams back to Palau and the Marshall Islands to work on CTIP. That's countering trafficking in persons. That is a very important issue. For both these countries, I would put Micronesia in there as well to complete the three COVID nations. We send our lawyers there to talk the legalities of what CTIP is, how to prevent it, and we'll get down to local law enforcement strategies, things like that. But the CTIP training resonates with the people of these countries. Absolutely. This is very visible.00:03:29 BRADFORD HUGHES very visible. It touches lives. It builds relationships. And when you look at business strategy, It's also a barrier to entry for our adversaries because they can't easily replicate those missions, can they? I'm glad you mentioned that.00:03:45 BRIAN HANCOCKglad you mentioned that. We are choosing to engage where our adversaries are choosing not.00:03:50 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah. And that's outstanding. Let's talk a little bit more about United Action Partners. Part of that shaping I was talking about earlier is going to be building their capacity and capability, not only to inoculate them from mis and disinformation. but to help them weather the effects of climate change and build resiliencies so that they're less vulnerable to adversary coercion and many other things that can come their way. Now, I know you've been heavily involved in this both publicly and privately. I'm just going to make a wild guess that some of the things that we would have to do if we wanted to. continue to build those UAP relationships. We're going to have to start at home. We have to get us the right expertise. There just aren't enough 38 golfs to go around, as you mentioned, but we can expand the capability because the 38 golfs we do have are well -known and can help us foster constructive relationships and agreements with places like University of Fresno, which has an amazing agriculture school, a number of things, Texas A &M. very wide set of sciences there that could be made available to us. And once we have that kind of expertise behind the 38 golf teams, then we're able to expand into many of the relief opportunities that that community is going and humanitarian assistance disaster relief, which sadly is a growing business. There's more disasters than ever, every year, it seems. There are ever, ever greater needs that need to be filled. And then finally, it culminates in full -on bolstering of those foreign partners. Whether that could lead to ABO or anything else is open for debate, but it seems to me that the benefits are many. Now, what do you think about this? From your experience, how should we be going about building up our United Action partners?00:05:43 BRIAN HANCOCKThe way I'll answer this is to frame it again, start. portfolio missions. And these are the mission sets we use to amplify the value proposition of the team and our stabilizing impact. So if I'm going to do anything before I leave, beautiful. One thing is evolve our partnership with US Army Pacific Security Cooperation Division, specifically to drive our inclusion in campaign plan tasking mechanism. This is a challenge. We have been able to support Army Service component commands, 1st Corps and 8th Army. We have been active working with them. But our portfolio of mission sets, there's six or seven of them. Women, peace, and security is important to us. The innovative readiness training we discussed previously, the disaster response exercises in exchange, the injuries, great opportunity. We have a 38 Gulf 5 Yankee that's an emergency management expert. It's an opportunity to deploy those individuals. Our civil control lawfare programs, like the attorney working CTIP issues across COFA, we have really found tremendous value using our ILOs or international law officers to run trainings. And then I'm going to take this to the three -legged stool. When we're at home, not in Mountain View, the analytic capacity to... do country vulnerability assessments, providing a think tank -like service. We've done so recently for First Corps, for USER PAC. That is something that the 38 Golfs can immediately get around and get it deliverable out within the constraints of a battle assembly weekend. Found some value there. You were talking about the university partnerships, so supporting and advancing USER Cape Box partnership with academia and industry. That's the reachback capability that just really expands what the Gulfs can do. So you mentioned Fresno State, Texas A &M. We have bound by MOUs. Money's not exchanging hands. It's codified in tech. But we have MOUs with Notre Dame, Rice University, University of Wisconsin -Madison, the Milwaukee Water Council, and the Smithsonian. And we're working on others. But the reach back that those university partners give us, it's tremendous.00:08:08 BRADFORD HUGHES And not only the knowledge that that represents, but I can only imagine the social and political networks that come with those field experts. You want to open doors. You want to get through bureaucracy. You want to get something done. That just sounds like an amazing resource.00:08:25 BRIAN HANCOCKan amazing resource. It's huge. As a matter of fact, University of Wisconsin, Madison is hosting an event for our natural resources folk, and it'll be in the Madison area later this May. We have civil affairs practitioners really coming across the enterprise, active duty sending some. COPPA III is going to make up the lion's share of the attendees. But it's important, and it's a way for the universities as well, that relationship with civil affairs. It unlocks corporate money for them, which is important, and that's money we can also use to conduct trainings and then potentially deploy. university partners, experts in their own right, obviously, to engagements overseas.00:09:08 BRADFORD HUGHES I want to put on my mad scientist hat here for a moment, you know, looking at this expertise that's aligned, looking at the complexity of the worldwide mission we have to conduct, which is progressively an urbanized space, and recognizing that there's a capability gap, not just a resource gap, but a capability gap here. The answer should be experimentation, right, and development of new capabilities through total Army analysis or small business innovation research, the various opportunities, grant writing, et cetera, that are out there. So looking at experimentation, I think one of the most important things we need to figure out how to do, and not just for the Army, but for the Department of Defense, for the military, and for our military partners as well, is We're very good at achieving tactical success on the battlefield. We win most engagements that we fight. The challenge is achieving strategic objectives. Strategic success is a little bit more elusive. So it's kind of like we play chess and we take a lot of pieces, but we don't get checkmate oftentimes, it seems. And so we spend a lot of the time and energy getting all those pieces off the board. But at the end of the day, if we don't get that strategic win, it calls some of that. sacrifice into question. That's why years ago, I was very excited when the Department of Defense stood up and funded the Army Futures Commander AFC. I waited for about a year for them to get going. And then I called up a friend that you and I both know, I know six, won't mention his name on the air. And I asked him, okay, I said, hey, can you tell me a little bit about, you know, all this funding we see? Can you tell me? What portion of that is reserved for less than lethal capabilities and experimentation? Now, I still remember his response to this day. It's either really good or really bad, right? He turned to me, he says, Brian, 95 % of everything we work on in Army Futures Command is instantly lethal. But given their enormous budget, I didn't give up, sir. I'm still excited by this. Because I realized that that 5 % remaining actually amounted to probably 10 times the entire budget of use of KPOC. So I was very excited by this. So then I tried to ask him, how do I get access to that 5 % that's been allocated for non -lethal capabilities? And the girl raises his hand and he says, hold on there. The remaining 5 % is reserved for the laser that guides the bomb that kills you. It's just so deflated. I was so deflated when I heard that. Now, that was years ago. And I suspect that this 06 was using a little bit of hyperbole, of course, when he was explaining all this. But fast forward to today, I know you've been working with Army Futures Command. You've got a number of initiatives underway and in some promising initiatives there. Is this still the case? Do we still have a huge resource gap in the R &D pipeline, at least as far as AFC goes, to develop these critical capabilities we need for competition? Is that so? And if it is so, why do you think that remains the case?00:12:32 BRIAN HANCOCKThat's a great question. And before I get to it, I do want to share that this past Friday, I had the opportunity to see Admiral. Craven speak at the University of Texas. So, you know, he's a former chancellor at UT back 2014, 2015. And as we all know, he is the consummate, been there, done that guy throughout his military career. What's interesting, and I don't think a lot of people know this, Army Futures Command is here in Austin, as are the seven defense ex -organizations. So think AFWERX, NAVWAR. DIU, Defense Innovation Unit. But Admiral McRaven, when he was at UT as chancellor, he was a big part of what got Futures Command to Austin, not necessarily standing it up. I think that was already in play, but getting that four -star command here into Central Texas. But to get to your question, I think one of the greatest threats to national security seems to be the utter lack of appreciation. An ability to adapt to other cultures and build partner capacity. Who is workshopping? People operations, cultural adaptation, informal network building, and partner force collaboration. Everything that we're talking about, call it winning without fighting. Civil affairs is getting after it, kind of ad hoc. Futures Command is not right now. And my challenge to Futures Command is... They need to look harder and consider a cross -functional team dedicated to the human terrain. I think that's the answer. It doesn't have to be a full -blown cross -functional team. I get it. Civil affairs isn't like future vertical lift, nano, precision fires. But I think there shouldn't be some money apportioned to what is incredibly important. We are working some initiatives. We have them cooking with the Army Applications Lab. So that's the lab portion or branch of teachers command. It's a little too early to reveal what we're trying to do, but just having proximity, whether it's the 95th CD brigade, the CD proponent, having proximity to future's command to talk. Some of these things I think is incredibly important. And that's what we're hoping to advance. And I will share with you and hear for the podcast back in school at the University of Texas Hookham, the LBJ School of Public Affairs. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Be careful what you wish for. Uh -oh. But my capstone is tackling exactly this. Would Features Command consider some sort of cross -functional team? Again, cross -functional team like dedicated to Army CA. So I'll put it in writing.00:15:23 BRADFORD HUGHES So I'll00:15:24 BRIAN HANCOCKput it in00:15:25 BRADFORD HUGHES writing. We'll see where it goes. I hope so. In the past, I've had those conversations with the Civil Affairs Proponency. The reality is their budget is small and they're very focused on tactical soft missions. Sure. The project was of a magnitude larger than they could tackle at the time. I certainly hope that that bears fruit. We think about it. Winning a battle isn't too difficult. But when you want to win a war. And, you know, I'm not sure what our national defense budget is up to now, something like $850 billion, the single largest, most discretionary part of the budget. And for that price tag, we certainly want to win wars when we engage them. And the reality is that unless you are able to defeat the will of your adversaries so that they effectively give up, because there's so many asymmetrical capabilities, so many powerful small weapons these days, unless you defeat that will. which exists in the human space, not outer space, you're never going to get there. You're never going to get there. And we need to invest in that. We need to understand that. You know, I'm reminded of H .R. McMaster's book, Dereliction of Duty, which I'm going through a second time now. And he talked about the Ivy League thinking that was happening in LBJ's administration at that time, where they assumed that the North Vietnamese had the same mental models, the same penchant for risk, were the same type of rational actor as Americans were, and they could, through the fallacy of mirroring, which we try and avoid in intelligence, which is assuming the enemy is just like us and will respond as we think they will or as we would, and they think as we think, they continued this policy of graduated pressure, oblivious to the fact that the enemy's penchant for risk was, Off the chart relative to ours and that their commitment to communist revolution and ideals was what was shaping everything for them. And there was no understanding or effort to understand that. And you know what happened in Vietnam, of course, that the results were disastrous. So how do we avoid that again? Will AFC help us, sir? Or are you going to have to go out and start a private consulting company and we'll tackle it from that angle?00:17:50 BRIAN HANCOCKThe private consulting company is always in the cards. So 2014 -15, the SCA proponent, they were working on something interesting. It was the IMSG, the Institute for Military Security Governance. And it kind of went back by the wayside. We're looking to potentially dust that off. And there's a lot of good stuff in IMSG. And that may be a foot in the door. to get closer to futures command?00:18:23 BRADFORD HUGHES I certainly hope so. I know that TRADOC OEC, which has had some capabilities in this space, has been downsized a little bit. So definitely a little bit concerned with the future, not pessimistic on the future, but definitely concerned. We can correct the course if we can raise the message to the right audience. And I'm hoping through our combined efforts, we'll eventually get there. We've got a few minutes left. I did want to talk a little bit more about the functional specialty teams. Many of the people dialing in or listening in have access, either through reachback or they're in civil affairs formations themselves and can reach out and touch some FXSP members and interact with 38 Golfs. Let's talk best practices. How can they best employ their 38 Golfs and their functional specialty? Just for one, Quick example, back in 2020, at that time, you and I did some experimentation, actually, where we took the PhD little expertise that you had sitting in the FXSP, and I took myself and some of our civil analytics people sitting in the civil information management team, and we created a fusion organization. situation, the functional specialist teams, they collected all the relevant mission data because of their expertise and ability to know where to look and how to capture that. And then they analyzed and categorized it using their subject matter analysis and expertise. We then took it in the SIEM team, we normalized it, combined it with other data sets to make the N larger, perform some quantitative analysis, and then ended up producing some data. visualizations that were designed for military decision makers, which highlighted progress, managed critical information requirements, mission instates, et cetera. And we tested this together in RIMPAC 2020, and it seemed to work out pretty well. So that's one way that FXSPs can't be utilized in conjunction with a SIM or a CKI cell. But that was a few years ago. You've been at this business for a while. What are some of your other recommendations to the community on how they can effectively employ their FXSP formations to maximize that return on investment?00:20:38 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, I'm glad you brought up Grimpact 2018. That was like a distant dream, but it was pretty exciting working with you and seeing the 351 deploy at that scale to Fort Island. I think it was a resounding success. As much as I hate to say it, what we've become good at within the 351 that I think sets us apart is we are good at spending other people's money. So if you want to engage the FXSP, if you have a customer that comes with money, irrespective of what the need is, the fact that travel can be covered, that's significant. Like I said, I hate to mention that, but it is the reality that we currently operate under.00:21:27 BRADFORD HUGHES But it's still a win -win, though, because when you calculate the return on investment relative to the input dollars, I think it's pretty clear folks are getting their money on what they're spending. They're buying quality. I mean, the work I'm seeing from functional specialists is being printed in military review. I mean, this is the top journal in the country for military experts.00:21:49 BRIAN HANCOCKWe're chasing those that have money. There's a couple of interesting things that we're working on now. The portfolio items that I listed previously, most of that does come with lines of accounting. And that's what we need in order to travel. We always own the annual training, but we're looking for those travel dollars. But as of late this year, through Defense Security Cooperation Agency, through Institute for Security Governance, those folks... have a need to bring 38 golfs downrange with them. So ISG, I think, is under the umbrella of the Naval Postgraduate School. And through ISG, there's some things that we're going to try to do. Think some of the pieces of security. Think governance. There may be some commerce involved. Bring a golf in a support capacity to help with those experts as a block of instruction is delivered. I think an exciting... potential engagement for us. I was on a call last week with CA Puconet, the 95th CA Brigade was on the call and all the supported battalions. Through what's called section 333, it's an authority that the active duty CAS has access to. It's going to be a building partner capacity type play, but it enables them to potentially reach out to a Western forces and bring whatever that flavor of 38 Gulf is that they need, bring them with them. And what's been a challenge for the active component is accessing compo three. So we try to make it as easy as possible. The rules and regulations behind the RV reserve, if you're not in it, it is just confusing. You know, you got 15 days of AT, you can't do this, you can't do that. But if we can make it easy for them, hey, call Hughes, call Hancock. We need somebody for two or three days, probably longer than that. We need somebody for some stretch of time, less than 15 days to go down range and engage in whatever their area of expertise is. That's attractive to the active component. We make it even easier for them. We're talking passports, theater entry. Those are pipeline requirements that our golfs have to have met, right? To be considered, we call it readiness level one, meaning you are ready to go out the door. You've got to have all that stuff ready to go. If we get the call from The 97th, in our case, in Indo -PACOM, we need somebody in Papua New Guinea with some of the 38 Sierra governance officers. We're ready to go.00:24:02 BRADFORD HUGHES are pipeline00:24:19 BRIAN HANCOCKNew Guinea with some of the 38 Sierra governance officers. We're ready to go. So I think if we can get there with them, it could be interesting.00:24:29 BRADFORD HUGHES I can't wait. You know, not only is that an amazing offer to our active COMPO -1 forces and to those nation and to... the country teams and the other players that are involved. And I know many of us have worked for some of these NGOs as well that are on the ground and have good relationships there as well. Sure, a win across the board, but this is also exciting for civil affairs soldiers. When you're at the water cool after coming back from doing reserve duty, what does the average reservist going to talk about? And then compare it to what the folks on your team can talk about, right? It just seems like a great high impact way to do time in the military. And it's a talent management tool for sure. Yeah. Okay, just a couple minutes left. I'd like to end by just talking a little bit more about the developments within the 38 Gulf, kind of where we are with that program. Years ago, when it was started, there was no direct commission program. And honestly, there wasn't a really good progression pyramid for folks coming in. mid or perhaps even early in their military career to serve a whole career and have a progression path to keep moving forward within that space. I understand there's been some changes. Can you just update the community? You know, where is the 38 golf program today? I'm sure there's many folks who listen to the types of things that your team does, who'd be interested in joining. Where is that program today? And how can folks who are interested in this, join this exciting career field.00:26:08 BRIAN HANCOCKcareer field. And Brian, jump in if you want me to expound on anything here. So there are currently three ways to enter the program. You can branch transfer. And that's what I did. I was a career conventional army aviator, felt the pull into CA and generated a 38 goals packet. I was boarded and then I branched transferred into civil affairs. So we get A lot of folks that way. Again, they're coming, they're already in uniform and they're coming from other branches. An exciting development is we are now starting to commission enlisted members who may have an advanced degree and they're going to receive a commission as a captain, assuming they successfully negotiate. So that is a great opportunity for enlisted members. And we've just seen several get made. I think, you know, one or two as of late. Right. I think what's exciting for this audience is the direct commission program. So there are experts out there. And I like to say we're looking for unicorns, titans of industry, people that can really make a difference. They're great Americans and they're coming in off the street. They're receiving a commission as a captain, but based on what kind of degrees you hold and things like that,00:27:08 SPEAKER_00So there00:27:22 BRIAN HANCOCKbased on what kind of degrees you hold and things like that, you could come in as a major or even a lieutenant colonel, only seen major, but lieutenant colonel is not. of the realm of the possible. But what's interesting though, is those folks come in, they still have to be willing. Now you're part of the army. There's some non -negotiable trainings that you have to go through. We call it the direct commission course. That's six weeks at Fort Benning and then a host of other things to get you mission ready. But we want those unicorns, those folks that want to give back, come in as a 38 golf and truly make a difference. I really want to put, stop this again. I mentioned the power of the network. I think we're bringing in experts, but we're also bringing in their network. Right. For example, I'm a 38 Gulf Foxtrot. I'm a transportation officer. I can engage in aviation operations. I can talk about risk, revenue, and safety. Do I know a lot about road, rail, or maritime infrastructure? No, but I know who to call. Right. And - Just in time. That's what - Yeah. Yeah. It's that network. Right. So - We're leveraging as a 38 golf program broadly the respective networks across the cohort. And that's really what gives us power. And a last thing I wanted to mention here is I think it's helpful for golfs coming in to think of themselves as it's almost like the warrant officer, if you will. So warrant officers in aviation or working intelligence systems, they're kind of just doing one thing, right? That's their military track. And I think that's the, although nobody really says it, I think that's the intent behind the golf program, right? You're coming in as an energy expert, right? That's kind of what you're going to do throughout your career. And I think if you come at it with that frame of mind,00:29:17 BRADFORD HUGHES frame of mind, that's helpful. Right. You know, I especially think some of those senior people that you were alluding to, and I'm glad that you mentioned that because there's not a lot of places in the army. where those more senior folks who are patriotic, who want to have an adventure. We live so long with modern medicine. Most folks have three whole careers now. This is an opportunity for those folks. I'm getting a little bit older. And one of the reasons I do the podcast is because I have a desire. I've been spending my whole life accumulating knowledge and experience. I figure at least 2 % of it's useful. I want to give it back. But I give it back to the community. Right. Those folks that you mentioned would be willing to as well. And we bumped into, you know, congressmen and other folks that we work with in civil affairs who were attracted to that. So depending on where you are at your walk in life, don't look at yourself and say, well, you know, I'm over 40. I couldn't possibly join the military. Well, that's not true at all. There are opportunities for those who want to serve the nation and who want to serve the people of the world because we go out and to where they are, persistent forward, helping them in their native environment. And I think ultimately we probably learn more than they do from that exchange, but it is an awesome thing to do. And I will tell you that our pacing threat. The Chinese, they don't fear our military so much. They have a plan to deal with that. May not be tomorrow. But what they absolutely cannot replicate and are always concerned about is our ability to build alliances, to build partnerships, to make friends. People want to work with us. And the 38 golf program is part of that ambassadorial flow. Well said. So I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Do you have any final thoughts you want to share?00:29:39 SPEAKER_00an opportunity00:31:04 BRIAN HANCOCKHey, Lieutenant Colonel Hancock, I appreciate your time today. It was fun to reminisce about some of the things that we did together from IRT in 2020, and then who can forget RIMPAC 2018. Those were good times for sure, but truly appreciate your time. And please know, and for the audience, the 38 Golf Program is really, I'm passionate about it. I think it moves the needle for Arming Reserve Civil Affairs. It's truly an important program.00:31:36 BRADFORD HUGHES Thank you very much for your time. Colonel Hughes, really appreciate you coming on and giving the audience some information that is in high demand. I know we'll be hearing from you again, hopefully, when you pin your first star. I pray for that. And luckily, you'll be moving forward and in our position to be able to shape some of these things that we talked about. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you very much. All right. Bye -bye. See you.00:32:02 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA podcast.
-
Brian Hancock hosts Brad Hughes in a two-part discussion on how Civil Affairs and the 38G civil society programs are helping the U.S. in its foreign policy outreach in the Pacific. This is part one of two.
Brad Hughes Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradfordhughes/
Brian Hancock Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-j-hancock/
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail dot com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
Special thanks to DrSaxLove for the sample of "Nearness of You." Found on Cocktail Party - 40s Music. Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvH-nbindvk
------
Credits
Sponsor: Civil Affairs Association
Host: Brian Hancock
Showrunner / editor: Jack Gaines
---
00:00:07 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:47 BRIAN HANCOCKWelcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I'll be your host for the session. Today we have with us Colonel Bradford Hughes to discuss innovative training for civil affairs functional specialty teams, or FXSP. building partner capacity, and military governance experimentation. Colonel Hughes, welcome to the show.00:01:07 BRADFORD HUGHES It is great to be here, and I am excited to talk about the civil affairs and specifically initiatives with the 38 Golf Program.00:01:16 BRIAN HANCOCKOh, outstanding. That is one of the greatest developments that's happened to civil affairs in a long time, and there's a huge appetite out there to hear more about that, and I know you will definitely do that justice. I've had the pleasure of working with you. Some in the audience haven't. Let me tell everybody a little bit about you. Colonel Bradford Hughes is a 38 Gulf military government specialist, often likes to refer to himself as Brad. He is skilled at building partnerships, articulating a vision, and positioning value. As a former Master Army Aviator and UH -60 maintenance test pilot, he led multiple combat and humanitarian relief deployments across the world. Colonel Hughes serves as the government functioning specialty chief of the 351 Civil Affairs Command in Mountain View, California, where his team employs a civilian acquired skills and operates in the interagency intergovernmental environment to deepen the influence across the Pacific. He is also a certified gender advisor, leading efforts with the command to mainstream gender perspectives. into planning and operations. Just a quick reminder to the audience that all the remarks by Colonel Hughes and myself are solely ours. All right. Now, it's been several years since we have worked together. You apparently have been very busy there building an amazing functional specialty team at 351 and developing the 38 golf program.00:02:50 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah, for sure. And before we get started, I just wanted to take a moment and really thank the previous commanding general for the 351st Civil Affairs Command, Brigadier General Retired Chris Zubek. Yeah. His focus was getting civil affairs capabilities across the international dateline so we can execute in the Pacific. With our new CG, that's Brigadier General Brian Horton, I think we've achieved this. And we are working towards refining how we engage and truly leverage the value proposition of Army Reserve Civil Affairs. And also, I wanted to give a shout out to Colonel Chris Cray and his 364 Frontier Civil Affairs Brigade and his team's work with Pacific Frontier 24.00:03:37 BRIAN HANCOCKOutstanding. Good things happening everywhere. The Pacific is the biggest place in DOPECON, the largest combatant command. And unfortunately, it's not full of countries that are all identical. In fact, they're all unique. So it's a very challenging problem set. Love to hear what's going on. I know we're going to be talking more about that. For those who are just tuning in, can you tell the audience a little bit about your role at 351 Civil Affairs Command as the functioning special team chief? You know, what's a duty day like for you?00:04:10 BRADFORD HUGHES for you? I do consider myself an entrepreneur. I direct operations for an all on -demand helicopter charter company. We serve an interesting portfolio of clients from Tesla and University of Texas Athletics. There's another hookup for you, NASCAR, and even the San Antonio Spurs. I also do work as a technology transfer consultant where I provide clients with intellectual property management and we make market -based recommendations. I bring that up because the cross -cutting component really between my civilian and military roles is that I think I'm competent at identifying trends and seizing opportunity. And with that, the opportunity to advance civil affairs, the enterprise at every opportunity is incredibly important for myself into recruiting and retaining top talent. I like to think I function as a brand ambassador. I strive to build readiness by developing innovative opportunities that build cross -component, joint, and combined synergy. All efforts lead to continued refinement of the government function specialty team, FXSP interoperability across KCOM, music KPOC, and unified action partners. So together, that's what gives me great satisfaction.00:05:31 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd that's a critical mission. I also love the way that you brought up the critical civilian skill sets that are required here. Whether it's large -scale combat operations, coin operations other than war, there is a desperate need for us to interface effectively with host nations, civil authority. That's where strategic victory lies. We'll talk a little bit more about that later. And you have just impeccable civilian credentials. I really wish on our board process that they would consider our civilian credentials as reservists, but perhaps something for human capital management in the future, but certainly they're essential for a 38 golf. Of course.00:06:13 BRADFORD HUGHES And I think we'll talk a little bit about this towards the end, but getting back to the golf program, it's currently structured with multiple skill identifiers. There's 18 of them. that target specific skill sets nested within various government function specialty areas. So these can range from commerce to archivists, transportation, and everything in between. So the Gulf program is a Army Reserve program that complements the active component. And military government officers, yes, subject matter experts, they're technically qualified, their experience, and a little bit of the company line here. They advise, enable, and assist commanders, and importantly, direct civilian counterparts with stabilizing and providing governance expertise. One thing I've always stressed is I think that capability should reside at the KCOMs just based on strategic significance of the goals, but there is force structure down to the battalions. But again, we, the 351, we try to pull that capability up to the KCOMs. I think that's where we can truly leverage the expertise of the goals.00:07:22 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, that makes sense to me. I know Brigadier General Zubik, who has recently departed, he developed a plan for digital reconnaissance, digital reachback, leveraging some of those capabilities at Echelon. So it makes sense to house things there, especially if there's a capability that can be delivered in time and space as required to all of the maneuvering elements. So that makes good sense to me. Let me ask you a little bit about this. I've had the pleasure, you know, working here at a four -star command. Lieutenant General Jody Daniels comes by periodically. Sometimes she does a town hall, and then she presents new information. One time she came out and talked about one of her recent publications, very, very interesting, a very accomplished senior leader. And one of the things that she's been saying is she wants our TPU, our troop program units in the reserve, to conduct novel training. And to experiment, she's not married to the traditional one weekend a month, two weeks a year type of battle assembly format. Now, I understand that you have done something with that at 351, that you've embraced that opportunity. Can you tell the audience a little bit about your efforts there? And, you know, if you're willing, share some results.00:08:37 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that resource allocation, to me, is negatively impacting Campo 3 or Army Reserve culture. As I mentioned, the golf program, we recruit experts from across the country. And we may have somebody on the East Coast that's interested in what the 351 is doing in the Indo -Pacific AOR. But because of the reduction in resources, I think many are starting to feel a little bit underserved. And because of these reductions, we've acknowledged the challenges. And now we collectively, our team comes to Mountain View once per quarter. And we call that a traditional non -battle assembly approach. We feel that this approach may become the norm for both use of KPOP and really across the Army Reserve. And I could get into the blocking and tackling of it. We look at it as a three -legged stool organized around fiscal year quarters. So looking at the three months per quarter, month one, we come in for mandatory collective training. And that's where we come in for the non -negotiable. Training events. So thank ranges, ACFT, things where we need full -time support. And we have some of the non -negotiable FXSP events like heart training, disaster management, JAUC is through USAID. That's month one. We hit those non -negotiables. Month two, and I think collectively we learned coming out of the pandemic that individual readiness, professional development, things like that. are easier to accomplish at your home of record. It doesn't make sense to come to Mountain View to do an SGLV or DD93, PHAs, stuff like that. You can get after that at the house. Well, isn't IPSA supposed to make that go away? That's a good question. I will defer. I'm still waiting. I've got to defer to the human resources experts for that. While you're at the house, continuing education needed for professional credentialing, networking, knowledge building, all that stuff can be done at the house. Or research tasks. I think you spotlighted that a little bit. Initiatives or projects that we're trying to advance. And then quickly, the month three, we call it EPO driven. So an EPO is an exercise planning officer or NCO. And either he or she will make a determination on the location. We assign an EPO to an exercise or engagement, and it's that person's responsibility to do everything for theater entry to get that team downrange. So the EPO is going to make the call, hey, does that bring us to Mountain View? Yeah. Where we need full -time support or access to systems or maybe an alternate location to secure official passports. There may be SIF or Sarnet access someplace else other than Mountain View where it makes sense for the team. participating in whatever the exercise or engagement is to go there. Stakeholder coordination as examples. So three -legged stool broken down by fiscal year quarters. That's how we're getting after it.00:11:48 BRIAN HANCOCKThat makes sense. I was worried you're going to hit me with Colonel Lykes' ins ways and means on that stool there, but glad that it went in a different direction. And thanks also for mentioning the importance of the government passport. Many folks out there in the military, at least in Campo 3, don't have the opportunity to travel as far and wide as some of the civil affairs soldiers do. And many of the nations they're going to, a government passport is actually not required. But many countries, especially some of these small island nations in the Pacific, most of Africa, etc., you're not going to get there on a government mission without a government passport. And I know that you've cracked the code on how to get that. If an emergent mission comes up, I can send the team pretty fast,00:12:32 BRADFORD HUGHES can't you? We can. And we cracked the code last year and then things change. I will tell you that the majority of team members have their passports, but then we'll get caught up short with a visa requirement. And suddenly we've got to expedite that in order to get the team down range. I will mention too, just as a cost savings measure, we'll also encourage team members to drill with neighboring units. National Guard in Arizona, they may be conducting an ACIT. We have soldiers who are close. They'll go there and execute. And it also allows us to broadcast the capabilities of the 38 Gulf, whether it's to the Guard, other compo three units, active duty. So we look at it as an opportunity for folks to showcase their expertise to a new audience.00:13:18 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd that's fantastic. As you're well aware in civil affairs, we don't have lieutenant level positions. We're always having to take folks from an entry MLS and invite them to the team and get them to cross over. So it's fantastic that you're spreading, you know, evangelizing the awesome mission that we have. It's amazing when you tell people the things that you get to do at Battle Assembly as a civil affairs soldier versus the things that they do. Oftentimes the program just sells itself. Yeah, for sure. And I don't think the money situation is getting any better.00:13:49 BRADFORD HUGHES don't think the money situation is getting any better. And we'll continue with this non -traditional BTA approach. It's working for us. And I really think it's going to be the new model.00:13:59 BRIAN HANCOCKbe the new model. Outstanding. I suspect we're going to see more of that from other units moving forward. Let's switch gears for a second. I know many of the folks in the audience are not aware of that secret gem for training we have in Combo 3, known as innovative readiness training. IRT. I understand that 351 Civil Affairs Command actually has been heavily involved in the IRT program and a number of missions. In fact, I believe your team has even won some awards for IRT missions. Can you tell the audience out there, what is an IRT mission? How do you access that? How do you find those opportunities? And who can participate? For instance, can U .S. Marine Corps Civil Affairs participate in IRT missions? Can non -civil affairs units who may be listening to this podcast, can they take advantage of IRT missions?00:14:51 BRADFORD HUGHES I think IRT is open to the reserve component writ large, so COMPO2 and COMPO3. And I think, don't hold me to it, but I think it's also open to other reserve formations. So yeah, the Marine Corps could be a Navy Air Force. But it is a reserve activity. And the Office of Secretary of Defense, OSD, has established the Innovative Readiness Training Civil -Military Partnership Program. We call it IRT for short. And for us, civil affairs, it offers us to exercise government function specialty nets. You know, so the things we need to train on and enhance readiness. And like you mentioned, we first caught wind of IRT in 2020, so in the throes of the pandemic. And there was a community in the Illusion, specifically the community of Unalaska, that wanted to bring in civil affairs practitioners to do an assessment of their community. Kind of a commerce play. The community was divesting or wants to divest from fishing and also try to leverage the national security implications of that region. So we went there in 2020. And I appreciate the shout out. We did win an award that year for the Civ Military Partnership of the Year. And now we're back this year, FY24, and the Arctic and Russia, China, and the United States have considerable interest in the region and the expansion of northern sea realms. There's a nexus there for cooperation or a flashpoint for conflict. So that's why we're there. We're focused on the central importance of Alaska and the Aleutians. Right. The critical role of infrastructure and the grid power competition. And it's really being viewed through our lens as government function specialty practitioners.00:16:44 BRIAN HANCOCKSpeaking of conflict, while you were there, I seem to recall I saw a news article and also some imagery that. Russian naval units actually came into the territorial waters of the Aleutians there and forced our American shipping out of those waters so that they could conduct military exercises. So it seems like not only do multiple nations have interests there, some of them are burning pretty aggressive in that space.00:17:22 BRADFORD HUGHES The activities by those players, our competitors, really have the community concerned and other stakeholders larger than Alaska, obviously. And we're there to provide them the direction. They're challenged with governance. It's just interesting in that region. It's very tribal. We were invited by the Kwajalein tribe. It's a native tribe in Alaska, and they collaborate with the city. So you've got the city and how it's organized, and then they also have a corporation. So they call it the Trilad. And from a governance perspective, we're there sharing best practices on how they can collaborate better. Mention private partner partnerships with respect to grant writing, finding financing, things like that for projects that they want to advance. We can help them. realize some of those things. So it's been interesting. We were back up there in February of this year. I went on that trip. And then we had two of our energy officers there last month. And as a matter of fact, we had a call yesterday. They're working, when I say they, the community on a interesting geothermal project that's tied to the Mercutian volcano. It's an active volcano. Part of the island chain. They want to tap into that. So if that Yeah. Geothermal project is built. You know, what does that mean for the Navy, for the Coast Guard? Would they be willing to establish more of a permanent presence? And that's something the community would like to see.00:18:57 BRIAN HANCOCKcommunity would like to see. Given the activity of adversaries in that region, which I suspect is going to continue to increase with the melting of the polar ice caps and that northern sea route is becoming more and more accessible, the Alaskan Coast Guard is overwhelmed. They have more. disasters and rescues than any state in the United States by a good majority, plus a greater coastline overall to manage when you include the outlying islands. So they're heavily tapped. They're probably not going to be in a position to stop aggressive navies. And you know why I love the army. I think we probably need some help from our friends in the Navy to keep our territorial borders safe there.00:19:42 BRADFORD HUGHES The community is really trying to position themselves as an attractive basing option for the Navy. And then with just a little bit more color on the IRT program, I think what we're doing as civil affairs practitioners is unique. Typically, IRT, you'll see it on the southwest border. You'll see it on CONUS -based tribal lands. It's nurses, doctors administering vaccines, or there could be small engineering projects, think building a road. something like that. I think what we're doing, civil affairs, we're operating as a consultancy and we're providing in partial perspective that second set of eyes that the community is interested in to advance things that are important to know.00:20:25 BRIAN HANCOCKthat are important to know. Yeah, outstanding. I mean, there's always one of the areas I was kind of a little bit jealous of the National Guard because they got to do a lot of missions to support American citizens within our own territory. But in COMPO3, we have that same opportunity here. through the IRT program. And I know we're going to be hearing more about some of the successes of your team in that area in the years to come. Let's start with what every ground pounder loves to talk about, which is the role of the military in competition. I'm sure you saw February 10th, 2023, the joint staff published the joint concept for competing. This was actually a landmark document as it represents. one of the first publications in a DACA format, which recognizes the conflicts that the United States and our allies are actually in and will be in for the foreseeable future, rather than the World War II -style conflicts that we have built the force to win. Now, given the Joint Chief's Title X responsibility, one would expect a host of changes across doctrine, organization, training, material, leadership, and education. personnel, facilities, and policy to come from this. What has actually happened is silence from the military community. Very little change has been initiated by this revolutionary document. The joint concept for competing recognizes that the strategy of our adversaries is to win without fighting. So, building large combat formations to go into blunt contact may not be the best investment if that is really their strategy. And when I think about this concept of win without fighting, I have flashbacks to that visual capital analysis video that you presented actually years ago at the Civil Affairs Association annual convention. In the video, it showed how through trade agreements, economic investment, etc., China was reshaping the global order in their favor. Do you remember that?00:22:27 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah, I do. It was innovation as a weapon system. And Brian, before we leave IRT, I've got to let the audience know that you were part of that initial engagement in 2020. And that award is just as much yours as it was the entire team. So if I hadn't, thank you again for that support. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. For sure. I'll try to frame my answer through a 38 golf lens and really. You talk about the future and as the army looks to the future and considers its ability to perform military government operations. So that's what we do as 38 golfs. The army has got to embrace a pool of golf personnel. This is important. We're civilian component oriented, culturally attuned and engagement focus. I like to consider it a cohort of experts with a strong understanding of stabilization activities. Yeah. And I think that gets back to the winning without fighting. Today's military government specialist has the tools required to help the army gain the critical governance support capacity it needs in the face of emerging challenges to the current global order and the geostrategic nature of our competition. And this is where I am building and pushing the team to advance this critical capability is where I hold great passion. And I recognize that this is the six inches in front of our face right now. And I think we've been successful.00:23:51 BRIAN HANCOCKI know we're going to talk about some of those specific successes coming up. Continuing to talk about competition, we're going to be in competition 99 % of the time. Sure. We both know that 99 % of the military's resources, including the Army, is not directed towards competition. In competition, it's generally not acceptable to, you know, bomb folks. And the reality is, in the military, it's often easier to drop a JDAM on something than it is to send out a text or a tweet. That's something that I know we're working on. But if we're really going to compete, if we're going to defeat a strategy of winning without fighting, then we have to be able to inoculate civil populations to the type of mis - and disinformation, the type of propaganda, the type of shaping. the type of casus bellies used to invite war, and that's going to require a lot of non -lethal capabilities, including what we used to refer to as information -related capabilities. Within that construct, civil affairs is one of the few military capabilities that's actually optimized for non -lethal influence effects. But I certainly saw the latest R -Struck was published not long ago, and when I took a look at that, at least in the soft cuts, what I'm seeing is that the Army is continuing to buy up risk in competition by continuing its slow program of divestiture of civil affairs forces. We've lost, for instance, all of our Comp 1 civil affairs forces as of FY26. This seems to me to be a disconnect, actually, in building a force capable of defeating the enemy's actual strategy versus what we're resourcing. If you see a disconnect, Why do you think that is?00:25:47 BRADFORD HUGHES You know, it's unfortunate that civil affairs is unfunded to the level it is. And I like to think of, I've got to remain positive. And I like to think of a value proposition, again, tying it back to the golf program, where we can realize that value proposition is building partner capacity. That is the vital tool for the U .S. to compete with great power adversaries. We are choosing to engage where adversaries do not. Security partnerships, alliances, as you just pointed out, they're unique and complex, adaptive systems. And you kicked off with this, especially with some of the smaller Pacific Island countries. We've been across COFA and we've seen that these countries display certain characteristics at the local level that are non -linear. Display system -wide emergent properties that our cohort, they have the systems -based expertise, we think at least, to implement building partner capacity through security cooperation, which contributes to the local and regional stability that we need to be successful in this period of competition. And it importantly adds credence to integrated deterrence. And that is the value proposition of the golf program. Civil affairs, again, we are obviously civil affairs practitioners. That's how I think we can be good partners and have meaningful impact.00:27:16 BRIAN HANCOCKimpact. I'll let you continue your thought in one second. And then, of course, I'm going to ask you about some examples of some of those real world missions that you're doing to these small nations. I know the audience wants to hear about that. It just seems to me, though, that we are very challenged institutionally as an organization to.00:27:36 BRIAN HANCOCKunderstand what shaping is outside of lobbing artillery rounds. Because that's winning without fighting, right? That's Sun Tzu's bloodless ultimate victory. For sure. He is defeating the enemy first, then going to war, right? The non -lethal capabilities of which CA is in high demand, it's very popular, very well received by post nations and partners in most cases, is one of those few capabilities. And it allows us to do those invisible shaping fires of influence that lead to things like access basing and overflight that help us set the theater for conflict if it occurs, for robust alliances, which are very powerful at deterring aggression. If Ukraine had been in NATO, they wouldn't be attacked and in so much difficulty right now. It's fantastic for generation of goodwill. It makes economic sense. All of these things have a nexus in positive, non -lethal influence. Now, with that said, can you tell the audience, some of which are going to be folks who don't necessarily believe in influence, that they believe in hard power, what are some of the effects that you have seen from what amounts to non -lethal fires that you've been doing in DOPECOM to generate positive influence for the United States and for our allies.00:29:09 BRADFORD HUGHES You know, I've got three recent engagements as of this calendar year to talk about, but I think where our team makes money is we're able to identify a community -based organization who they're... informal influencers and pick the country, right? And who's to say that when needed, one of these community -based organizations, they may have the ability to deliver results if ABO becomes an issue. I'm not saying that's the case. We're very vocal in some regards. And then we're meeting with ministers and others, but we're trying to build relationships across the spectrum. And you never really know when you might need to cash in that relationship. So I think that's important.00:29:58 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, but you have to invest before you can reap, right? And I think that's what I'm hearing your civil affairs teams are doing out there in the field. For sure.00:30:06 BRADFORD HUGHES And I think that also gets back to compo three, because we just stay on our positions a little bit longer. There's not as much churn as the active component sees. True. We're able to... build these relationships, right? It could be as simple as a phone call or a text or WhatsApp to a partner in the Philippines, a partner in Palau, like, hey, how's it going? And that's meaningful. It goes a long way and I think it goes further than a lot of people think.
00:00:52 BRIAN HANCOCKFor sure, and I think that also gets back to Compo 3 because we just stay on our positions a little bit longer. There's not as much churn as the active component sees. We're able to build these relationships, right? It could be as simple as a phone call or a text or WhatsApp to a partner in the Philippines, a partner in Palau, like, hey, how's it going? And that's meaningful. It goes a long way and I think goes further than a lot of people think. Just checking in, keeping that relationship top of mind.00:01:21 BRADFORD HUGHES top of mind. And I understand these missions go well beyond that, actually giving medical treatment, helping set up hospitals and clinics. building out governance capacity. And I'm sure you can give the audience many other examples of stuff your team's been involved in. Yeah, for sure.00:01:38 BRIAN HANCOCKWe have three team members right now in the Philippines. So we have our ag business team, 38 golf, six uniforms. So they're experts in ag business. And within that group, we have a veterinarian. who's working some animal husbandry issues in the Philippines, and we have some soil experts working with the Filipinos to increase yield. I'm not entirely sure what the crop is, but that's important and that's really meaningful. Absolutely. There's been an interesting mission regarding art repatriation. I don't want to get too deep into it, but there was some art looted. Monuments, man. Monuments, man. So we have a six -victor cohort, heritage preservation. There was some art that was looted during World War II that belongs to Okinawa. The art was discovered in the Boston area. Very long story short, we've repatriated it. And this is across all the KCOMs. This was driven by use of KPOC. But we are sending a practitioner back next week. For the repatriation ceremony, the artists landed in a museum in Okinawa, and the people there are excited to have this art come back. The FBI Arts Crime Division has been involved with this, the Air Force, and a host of others. And we're also sending teams back to Palau and the Marshall Islands to work on CTIP. That's countering trafficking in persons. That is a very important issue. For both these countries, I would put Micronesia in there as well to complete the three COVID nations. We send our lawyers there to talk the legalities of what CTIP is, how to prevent it, and we'll get down to local law enforcement strategies, things like that. But the CTIP training resonates with the people of these countries. Absolutely. This is very visible.00:03:29 BRADFORD HUGHES very visible. It touches lives. It builds relationships. And when you look at business strategy, It's also a barrier to entry for our adversaries because they can't easily replicate those missions, can they? I'm glad you mentioned that.00:03:45 BRIAN HANCOCKglad you mentioned that. We are choosing to engage where our adversaries are choosing not.00:03:50 BRADFORD HUGHES Yeah. And that's outstanding. Let's talk a little bit more about United Action Partners. Part of that shaping I was talking about earlier is going to be building their capacity and capability, not only to inoculate them from mis and disinformation. but to help them weather the effects of climate change and build resiliencies so that they're less vulnerable to adversary coercion and many other things that can come their way. Now, I know you've been heavily involved in this both publicly and privately. I'm just going to make a wild guess that some of the things that we would have to do if we wanted to. continue to build those UAP relationships. We're going to have to start at home. We have to get us the right expertise. There just aren't enough 38 golfs to go around, as you mentioned, but we can expand the capability because the 38 golfs we do have are well -known and can help us foster constructive relationships and agreements with places like University of Fresno, which has an amazing agriculture school, a number of things, Texas A &M. very wide set of sciences there that could be made available to us. And once we have that kind of expertise behind the 38 golf teams, then we're able to expand into many of the relief opportunities that that community is going and humanitarian assistance disaster relief, which sadly is a growing business. There's more disasters than ever, every year, it seems. There are ever, ever greater needs that need to be filled. And then finally, it culminates in full -on bolstering of those foreign partners. Whether that could lead to ABO or anything else is open for debate, but it seems to me that the benefits are many. Now, what do you think about this? From your experience, how should we be going about building up our United Action partners?00:05:43 BRIAN HANCOCKThe way I'll answer this is to frame it again, start. portfolio missions. And these are the mission sets we use to amplify the value proposition of the team and our stabilizing impact. So if I'm going to do anything before I leave, beautiful. One thing is evolve our partnership with US Army Pacific Security Cooperation Division, specifically to drive our inclusion in campaign plan tasking mechanism. This is a challenge. We have been able to support Army Service component commands, 1st Corps and 8th Army. We have been active working with them. But our portfolio of mission sets, there's six or seven of them. Women, peace, and security is important to us. The innovative readiness training we discussed previously, the disaster response exercises in exchange, the injuries, great opportunity. We have a 38 Gulf 5 Yankee that's an emergency management expert. It's an opportunity to deploy those individuals. Our civil control lawfare programs, like the attorney working CTIP issues across COFA, we have really found tremendous value using our ILOs or international law officers to run trainings. And then I'm going to take this to the three -legged stool. When we're at home, not in Mountain View, the analytic capacity to... do country vulnerability assessments, providing a think tank -like service. We've done so recently for First Corps, for USER PAC. That is something that the 38 Golfs can immediately get around and get it deliverable out within the constraints of a battle assembly weekend. Found some value there. You were talking about the university partnerships, so supporting and advancing USER Cape Box partnership with academia and industry. That's the reachback capability that just really expands what the Gulfs can do. So you mentioned Fresno State, Texas A &M. We have bound by MOUs. Money's not exchanging hands. It's codified in tech. But we have MOUs with Notre Dame, Rice University, University of Wisconsin -Madison, the Milwaukee Water Council, and the Smithsonian. And we're working on others. But the reach back that those university partners give us, it's tremendous.00:08:08 BRADFORD HUGHES And not only the knowledge that that represents, but I can only imagine the social and political networks that come with those field experts. You want to open doors. You want to get through bureaucracy. You want to get something done. That just sounds like an amazing resource.00:08:25 BRIAN HANCOCKan amazing resource. It's huge. As a matter of fact, University of Wisconsin, Madison is hosting an event for our natural resources folk, and it'll be in the Madison area later this May. We have civil affairs practitioners really coming across the enterprise, active duty sending some. COPPA III is going to make up the lion's share of the attendees. But it's important, and it's a way for the universities as well, that relationship with civil affairs. It unlocks corporate money for them, which is important, and that's money we can also use to conduct trainings and then potentially deploy. university partners, experts in their own right, obviously, to engagements overseas.00:09:08 BRADFORD HUGHES I want to put on my mad scientist hat here for a moment, you know, looking at this expertise that's aligned, looking at the complexity of the worldwide mission we have to conduct, which is progressively an urbanized space, and recognizing that there's a capability gap, not just a resource gap, but a capability gap here. The answer should be experimentation, right, and development of new capabilities through total Army analysis or small business innovation research, the various opportunities, grant writing, et cetera, that are out there. So looking at experimentation, I think one of the most important things we need to figure out how to do, and not just for the Army, but for the Department of Defense, for the military, and for our military partners as well, is We're very good at achieving tactical success on the battlefield. We win most engagements that we fight. The challenge is achieving strategic objectives. Strategic success is a little bit more elusive. So it's kind of like we play chess and we take a lot of pieces, but we don't get checkmate oftentimes, it seems. And so we spend a lot of the time and energy getting all those pieces off the board. But at the end of the day, if we don't get that strategic win, it calls some of that. sacrifice into question. That's why years ago, I was very excited when the Department of Defense stood up and funded the Army Futures Commander AFC. I waited for about a year for them to get going. And then I called up a friend that you and I both know, I know six, won't mention his name on the air. And I asked him, okay, I said, hey, can you tell me a little bit about, you know, all this funding we see? Can you tell me? What portion of that is reserved for less than lethal capabilities and experimentation? Now, I still remember his response to this day. It's either really good or really bad, right? He turned to me, he says, Brian, 95 % of everything we work on in Army Futures Command is instantly lethal. But given their enormous budget, I didn't give up, sir. I'm still excited by this. Because I realized that that 5 % remaining actually amounted to probably 10 times the entire budget of use of KPOC. So I was very excited by this. So then I tried to ask him, how do I get access to that 5 % that's been allocated for non -lethal capabilities? And the girl raises his hand and he says, hold on there. The remaining 5 % is reserved for the laser that guides the bomb that kills you. It's just so deflated. I was so deflated when I heard that. Now, that was years ago. And I suspect that this 06 was using a little bit of hyperbole, of course, when he was explaining all this. But fast forward to today, I know you've been working with Army Futures Command. You've got a number of initiatives underway and in some promising initiatives there. Is this still the case? Do we still have a huge resource gap in the R &D pipeline, at least as far as AFC goes, to develop these critical capabilities we need for competition? Is that so? And if it is so, why do you think that remains the case?00:12:32 BRIAN HANCOCKThat's a great question. And before I get to it, I do want to share that this past Friday, I had the opportunity to see Admiral. Craven speak at the University of Texas. So, you know, he's a former chancellor at UT back 2014, 2015. And as we all know, he is the consummate, been there, done that guy throughout his military career. What's interesting, and I don't think a lot of people know this, Army Futures Command is here in Austin, as are the seven defense ex -organizations. So think AFWERX, NAVWAR. DIU, Defense Innovation Unit. But Admiral McRaven, when he was at UT as chancellor, he was a big part of what got Futures Command to Austin, not necessarily standing it up. I think that was already in play, but getting that four -star command here into Central Texas. But to get to your question, I think one of the greatest threats to national security seems to be the utter lack of appreciation. An ability to adapt to other cultures and build partner capacity. Who is workshopping? People operations, cultural adaptation, informal network building, and partner force collaboration. Everything that we're talking about, call it winning without fighting. Civil affairs is getting after it, kind of ad hoc. Futures Command is not right now. And my challenge to Futures Command is... They need to look harder and consider a cross -functional team dedicated to the human terrain. I think that's the answer. It doesn't have to be a full -blown cross -functional team. I get it. Civil affairs isn't like future vertical lift, nano, precision fires. But I think there shouldn't be some money apportioned to what is incredibly important. We are working some initiatives. We have them cooking with the Army Applications Lab. So that's the lab portion or branch of teachers command. It's a little too early to reveal what we're trying to do, but just having proximity, whether it's the 95th CD brigade, the CD proponent, having proximity to future's command to talk. Some of these things I think is incredibly important. And that's what we're hoping to advance. And I will share with you and hear for the podcast back in school at the University of Texas Hookham, the LBJ School of Public Affairs. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Be careful what you wish for. Uh -oh. But my capstone is tackling exactly this. Would Features Command consider some sort of cross -functional team? Again, cross -functional team like dedicated to Army CA. So I'll put it in writing.00:15:23 BRADFORD HUGHES So I'll00:15:24 BRIAN HANCOCKput it in00:15:25 BRADFORD HUGHES writing. We'll see where it goes. I hope so. In the past, I've had those conversations with the Civil Affairs Proponency. The reality is their budget is small and they're very focused on tactical soft missions. Sure. The project was of a magnitude larger than they could tackle at the time. I certainly hope that that bears fruit. We think about it. Winning a battle isn't too difficult. But when you want to win a war. And, you know, I'm not sure what our national defense budget is up to now, something like $850 billion, the single largest, most discretionary part of the budget. And for that price tag, we certainly want to win wars when we engage them. And the reality is that unless you are able to defeat the will of your adversaries so that they effectively give up, because there's so many asymmetrical capabilities, so many powerful small weapons these days, unless you defeat that will. which exists in the human space, not outer space, you're never going to get there. You're never going to get there. And we need to invest in that. We need to understand that. You know, I'm reminded of H .R. McMaster's book, Dereliction of Duty, which I'm going through a second time now. And he talked about the Ivy League thinking that was happening in LBJ's administration at that time, where they assumed that the North Vietnamese had the same mental models, the same penchant for risk, were the same type of rational actor as Americans were, and they could, through the fallacy of mirroring, which we try and avoid in intelligence, which is assuming the enemy is just like us and will respond as we think they will or as we would, and they think as we think, they continued this policy of graduated pressure, oblivious to the fact that the enemy's penchant for risk was, Off the chart relative to ours and that their commitment to communist revolution and ideals was what was shaping everything for them. And there was no understanding or effort to understand that. And you know what happened in Vietnam, of course, that the results were disastrous. So how do we avoid that again? Will AFC help us, sir? Or are you going to have to go out and start a private consulting company and we'll tackle it from that angle?00:17:50 BRIAN HANCOCKThe private consulting company is always in the cards. So 2014 -15, the SCA proponent, they were working on something interesting. It was the IMSG, the Institute for Military Security Governance. And it kind of went back by the wayside. We're looking to potentially dust that off. And there's a lot of good stuff in IMSG. And that may be a foot in the door. to get closer to futures command?00:18:23 BRADFORD HUGHES I certainly hope so. I know that TRADOC OEC, which has had some capabilities in this space, has been downsized a little bit. So definitely a little bit concerned with the future, not pessimistic on the future, but definitely concerned. We can correct the course if we can raise the message to the right audience. And I'm hoping through our combined efforts, we'll eventually get there. We've got a few minutes left. I did want to talk a little bit more about the functional specialty teams. Many of the people dialing in or listening in have access, either through reachback or they're in civil affairs formations themselves and can reach out and touch some FXSP members and interact with 38 Golfs. Let's talk best practices. How can they best employ their 38 Golfs and their functional specialty? Just for one, Quick example, back in 2020, at that time, you and I did some experimentation, actually, where we took the PhD little expertise that you had sitting in the FXSP, and I took myself and some of our civil analytics people sitting in the civil information management team, and we created a fusion organization. situation, the functional specialist teams, they collected all the relevant mission data because of their expertise and ability to know where to look and how to capture that. And then they analyzed and categorized it using their subject matter analysis and expertise. We then took it in the SIEM team, we normalized it, combined it with other data sets to make the N larger, perform some quantitative analysis, and then ended up producing some data. visualizations that were designed for military decision makers, which highlighted progress, managed critical information requirements, mission instates, et cetera. And we tested this together in RIMPAC 2020, and it seemed to work out pretty well. So that's one way that FXSPs can't be utilized in conjunction with a SIM or a CKI cell. But that was a few years ago. You've been at this business for a while. What are some of your other recommendations to the community on how they can effectively employ their FXSP formations to maximize that return on investment?00:20:38 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, I'm glad you brought up Grimpact 2018. That was like a distant dream, but it was pretty exciting working with you and seeing the 351 deploy at that scale to Fort Island. I think it was a resounding success. As much as I hate to say it, what we've become good at within the 351 that I think sets us apart is we are good at spending other people's money. So if you want to engage the FXSP, if you have a customer that comes with money, irrespective of what the need is, the fact that travel can be covered, that's significant. Like I said, I hate to mention that, but it is the reality that we currently operate under.00:21:27 BRADFORD HUGHES But it's still a win -win, though, because when you calculate the return on investment relative to the input dollars, I think it's pretty clear folks are getting their money on what they're spending. They're buying quality. I mean, the work I'm seeing from functional specialists is being printed in military review. I mean, this is the top journal in the country for military experts.00:21:49 BRIAN HANCOCKWe're chasing those that have money. There's a couple of interesting things that we're working on now. The portfolio items that I listed previously, most of that does come with lines of accounting. And that's what we need in order to travel. We always own the annual training, but we're looking for those travel dollars. But as of late this year, through Defense Security Cooperation Agency, through Institute for Security Governance, those folks... have a need to bring 38 golfs downrange with them. So ISG, I think, is under the umbrella of the Naval Postgraduate School. And through ISG, there's some things that we're going to try to do. Think some of the pieces of security. Think governance. There may be some commerce involved. Bring a golf in a support capacity to help with those experts as a block of instruction is delivered. I think an exciting... potential engagement for us. I was on a call last week with CA Puconet, the 95th CA Brigade was on the call and all the supported battalions. Through what's called section 333, it's an authority that the active duty CAS has access to. It's going to be a building partner capacity type play, but it enables them to potentially reach out to a Western forces and bring whatever that flavor of 38 Gulf is that they need, bring them with them. And what's been a challenge for the active component is accessing compo three. So we try to make it as easy as possible. The rules and regulations behind the RV reserve, if you're not in it, it is just confusing. You know, you got 15 days of AT, you can't do this, you can't do that. But if we can make it easy for them, hey, call Hughes, call Hancock. We need somebody for two or three days, probably longer than that. We need somebody for some stretch of time, less than 15 days to go down range and engage in whatever their area of expertise is. That's attractive to the active component. We make it even easier for them. We're talking passports, theater entry. Those are pipeline requirements that our golfs have to have met, right? To be considered, we call it readiness level one, meaning you are ready to go out the door. You've got to have all that stuff ready to go. If we get the call from The 97th, in our case, in Indo -PACOM, we need somebody in Papua New Guinea with some of the 38 Sierra governance officers. We're ready to go.00:24:02 BRADFORD HUGHES are pipeline00:24:19 BRIAN HANCOCKNew Guinea with some of the 38 Sierra governance officers. We're ready to go. So I think if we can get there with them, it could be interesting.00:24:29 BRADFORD HUGHES I can't wait. You know, not only is that an amazing offer to our active COMPO -1 forces and to those nation and to... the country teams and the other players that are involved. And I know many of us have worked for some of these NGOs as well that are on the ground and have good relationships there as well. Sure, a win across the board, but this is also exciting for civil affairs soldiers. When you're at the water cool after coming back from doing reserve duty, what does the average reservist going to talk about? And then compare it to what the folks on your team can talk about, right? It just seems like a great high impact way to do time in the military. And it's a talent management tool for sure. Yeah. Okay, just a couple minutes left. I'd like to end by just talking a little bit more about the developments within the 38 Gulf, kind of where we are with that program. Years ago, when it was started, there was no direct commission program. And honestly, there wasn't a really good progression pyramid for folks coming in. mid or perhaps even early in their military career to serve a whole career and have a progression path to keep moving forward within that space. I understand there's been some changes. Can you just update the community? You know, where is the 38 golf program today? I'm sure there's many folks who listen to the types of things that your team does, who'd be interested in joining. Where is that program today? And how can folks who are interested in this, join this exciting career field.00:26:08 BRIAN HANCOCKcareer field. And Brian, jump in if you want me to expound on anything here. So there are currently three ways to enter the program. You can branch transfer. And that's what I did. I was a career conventional army aviator, felt the pull into CA and generated a 38 goals packet. I was boarded and then I branched transferred into civil affairs. So we get A lot of folks that way. Again, they're coming, they're already in uniform and they're coming from other branches. An exciting development is we are now starting to commission enlisted members who may have an advanced degree and they're going to receive a commission as a captain, assuming they successfully negotiate. So that is a great opportunity for enlisted members. And we've just seen several get made. I think, you know, one or two as of late. Right. I think what's exciting for this audience is the direct commission program. So there are experts out there. And I like to say we're looking for unicorns, titans of industry, people that can really make a difference. They're great Americans and they're coming in off the street. They're receiving a commission as a captain, but based on what kind of degrees you hold and things like that,00:27:08 SPEAKER_00So there00:27:22 BRIAN HANCOCKbased on what kind of degrees you hold and things like that, you could come in as a major or even a lieutenant colonel, only seen major, but lieutenant colonel is not. of the realm of the possible. But what's interesting though, is those folks come in, they still have to be willing. Now you're part of the army. There's some non -negotiable trainings that you have to go through. We call it the direct commission course. That's six weeks at Fort Benning and then a host of other things to get you mission ready. But we want those unicorns, those folks that want to give back, come in as a 38 golf and truly make a difference. I really want to put, stop this again. I mentioned the power of the network. I think we're bringing in experts, but we're also bringing in their network. Right. For example, I'm a 38 Gulf Foxtrot. I'm a transportation officer. I can engage in aviation operations. I can talk about risk, revenue, and safety. Do I know a lot about road, rail, or maritime infrastructure? No, but I know who to call. Right. And - Just in time. That's what - Yeah. Yeah. It's that network. Right. So - We're leveraging as a 38 golf program broadly the respective networks across the cohort. And that's really what gives us power. And a last thing I wanted to mention here is I think it's helpful for golfs coming in to think of themselves as it's almost like the warrant officer, if you will. So warrant officers in aviation or working intelligence systems, they're kind of just doing one thing, right? That's their military track. And I think that's the, although nobody really says it, I think that's the intent behind the golf program, right? You're coming in as an energy expert, right? That's kind of what you're going to do throughout your career. And I think if you come at it with that frame of mind,00:29:17 BRADFORD HUGHES frame of mind, that's helpful. Right. You know, I especially think some of those senior people that you were alluding to, and I'm glad that you mentioned that because there's not a lot of places in the army. where those more senior folks who are patriotic, who want to have an adventure. We live so long with modern medicine. Most folks have three whole careers now. This is an opportunity for those folks. I'm getting a little bit older. And one of the reasons I do the podcast is because I have a desire. I've been spending my whole life accumulating knowledge and experience. I figure at least 2 % of it's useful. I want to give it back. But I give it back to the community. Right. Those folks that you mentioned would be willing to as well. And we bumped into, you know, congressmen and other folks that we work with in civil affairs who were attracted to that. So depending on where you are at your walk in life, don't look at yourself and say, well, you know, I'm over 40. I couldn't possibly join the military. Well, that's not true at all. There are opportunities for those who want to serve the nation and who want to serve the people of the world because we go out and to where they are, persistent forward, helping them in their native environment. And I think ultimately we probably learn more than they do from that exchange, but it is an awesome thing to do. And I will tell you that our pacing threat. The Chinese, they don't fear our military so much. They have a plan to deal with that. May not be tomorrow. But what they absolutely cannot replicate and are always concerned about is our ability to build alliances, to build partnerships, to make friends. People want to work with us. And the 38 golf program is part of that ambassadorial flow. Well said. So I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Do you have any final thoughts you want to share?00:29:39 SPEAKER_00an opportunity00:31:04 BRIAN HANCOCKHey, Lieutenant Colonel Hancock, I appreciate your time today. It was fun to reminisce about some of the things that we did together from IRT in 2020, and then who can forget RIMPAC 2018. Those were good times for sure, but truly appreciate your time. And please know, and for the audience, the 38 Golf Program is really, I'm passionate about it. I think it moves the needle for Arming Reserve Civil Affairs. It's truly an important program.00:31:36 BRADFORD HUGHES Thank you very much for your time. Colonel Hughes, really appreciate you coming on and giving the audience some information that is in high demand. I know we'll be hearing from you again, hopefully, when you pin your first star. I pray for that. And luckily, you'll be moving forward and in our position to be able to shape some of these things that we talked about. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you very much. All right. Bye -bye. See you.00:32:02 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA podcast.
-
Today, we welcome Curtis Fox, author of Hybrid Warfare: The Russian Approach to Strategic Competition & Conventional Military Conflict, which is hot off the presses and in stores now.
We discuss the book's concepts and how they apply to current events. This is part one of two, so sit back, enjoy and come back next week for part two.
Link to Biography: https://www.linkedin.com/in/curtis-fox-mba-pmp-59b74223/
One CA Podcast aims to inspire people interested in working on-ground to forward U.S. foreign policy.
We bring in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences and recommendations for working the "last three feet" of foreign relations.
Have a story to tell? Email us to either speak or guest-host at: [email protected]
One CA Podcast is a product of the Civil Affairs Association: https://www.civilaffairsassoc.org/
Today's music is from the Disney film COCO and is a tribute to Ana Ofelia Murguia, whom I once met at a San Diego Latin Film Festival. Ana passed away this week at age 90, so this episode's music is her tribute. See you next week.
Murguia: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/01/movies/ana-ofelia-murguia-coco-dead.html
Link to music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJfoPUOUWBw
---
Transcript for Episode I&II
IntroductionWelcome to the One CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. One CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:41 CURTIS FOXThis is Curtis Fox.
00:00:43 JACK GAINESCurtis! Jack Gaines, how you doing?
00:00:45 CURTIS FOXDoing good, man. You're very punctual.
00:01:07 JACK GAINESRussia and Syria is a great example of a combination of, as you say, hybrid operations evolving into the full scale kinetic operations.
00:01:35 JACK GAINESFor the listeners? Sure. I can't even pronounce them. And I did read them, but it would be better for you to describe them. I mean,
00:01:42 CURTIS FOXI mean, I tell you what, I speak Russian and they're still hard for me to pronounce. Maybe the first term we can go into is Maskarovka, because this is one of the Russians' favorite terms. And that literally just translates to camouflage. This is the hidden hand approach that the Russians have in history done so well. They don't want these things to be directly attributable to Moscow.
00:02:06 CURTIS FOXJust literally means activity. And what they mean by that is all of the little things that you do in the background to try to frustrate a target nation's institutions from responding to the intervention that you're conducting. You do not want them to be able to get forces in the field. Preferably, you'd have them stay in their barracks. And you want to set up blockades that frustrate public transit and encourage people to stay in their homes. Or maybe come out in mass protest, preferably in front of city hall or a police station so the political apparatus is frozen. And then vignettes at most is surprise. But it's surprise of, you know, like speedy movement. And what they mean by that is if they can use soft forces to rapidly deploy and establish some sort of a foothold on a limited number of key objectives. then they need the rapid maneuver of heavy ground forces to entrench those gains. This was the secret sauce that did so well in the Crimean annexation back in 2014. So the VDV, the Russian Airborne Services, those are really the elite trigger pullers of the Russian armed forces. And once a number of Spetsnaz battalions had advanced far enough up roads and blackaded positions coming into the peninsula, The VDB immediately used a number of secured local airstrips to move in forces in mass. And they spread rapidly throughout the peninsula and secured all those gains.
00:03:43 JACK GAINESYou know, it kind of reminds me of Bosnia and Kosovo during the conflict and how it has resulted in Kosovo having a Bosnian shadow government in part of the border towns.
00:03:53 CURTIS FOXThere's some real similarities in the way Russia continues to manipulate and maintain influence in Georgia. and the Serbian approach in Bosnia. That's probably where they get a lot of these ideas from. If you look at Georgia, there's an autonomous enclave called South Asatia, and then another one called the Bukazia, which is right up on the coast of the Black Sea. And the Russians would have us believe that these enclaves had ethnic Russians in them, that they would have you believe that they don't want anything to do with that government. And they want to remain segmented off and autonomous from the country with no trade and political independence.
00:04:33 JACK GAINESI remember Lithuania had that issue, too. They were arguing that there are Russians in Lithuania that want nothing to do with Lithuania. I remember them posing the same argument there. So it must be a form of foothold mentality where they're saying, look, these are our people.
00:04:49 CURTIS FOXSure. Yeah. Vladimir Putin actually talks about it as a genuine tragedy that these are Russian citizens that have been scattered across the globe and isolated from the government in their mother country. Never really offers so many resources to come home if it's really that big of a tragedy. And they don't seem to want to migrate to Russia on their own dime. But this being a civil affairs podcast, it's probably also worthy to point out something the Russians do very well. is they figure out what influencers have their hands on which buttons. They're very good at understanding which individuals have access to what information and which individuals run X, Y, and Z departments and who would it be good to make friends with.
00:05:36 JACK GAINESRight. They have good influence operations. They know how to map people and their networks and reach. So your book is really large.
00:05:44 JACK GAINESbook is really large.
00:05:48 JACK GAINESAnd I appreciate it. I mean, it's what, 500 pages?
00:05:52 CURTIS FOXI tell you what, my publisher made me take out three appendices and an additional chapter. I actually wrote a chapter. It was a comparative glance on U .S. doctrine to highlight how is the Russian apparatus, the political apparatus, how do they actually create authorizations for these interventions? And then, you know, how do they actually deploy military force? from the available units that they have in SOF. And then I compared that to how we would do it in the United States. So that whole chapter was removed. And then I had separate appendices on the Soviet arsenal that Russia inherited in 1991, including the nuclear ordinance.
00:06:35 JACK GAINESHuge maintenance cost. Oh, my gosh.
00:06:37 CURTIS FOXmy gosh. And then I had an appendice on the state procurement programs, GPV 2020 and 2027. And I go through. All the hardware that they've been purchasing over the last 10, 12 years, you know, for Army, Navy, Air Force, Strategic Rocket Forces.
00:06:53 JACK GAINESSo are you going to push those into a second book or are you going to make those online dependencies for people who just want to learn more about it?
00:07:01 CURTIS FOXSo those are on the website right now. You can actually go read those. And, you know, if you're, I mean, you need to be an Uber nerd to get into them. But if you want to know which electronic warfare systems Moscow is running in Ukraine right now, it's all there.
00:07:15 JACK GAINESWell, if I'm uber lazy, could you send me the link so I can post it on the website?
00:07:19 CURTIS FOXFor you, anything.
00:07:20 JACK GAINESI'll put it in the show notes. That way people can check it out.
00:07:23 CURTIS FOXI'd love to pivot from that and talk to you a little bit about some of the units that they actually need to execute these strategies. And the reason it's such a relevant conversation is because a lot of these units have been hollowed out now in the current war, the Russo -Ukrainian War. Oh,
00:07:41 JACK GAINESwow.
00:07:44 CURTIS FOXhas taken such extraordinary casualties that it was combat ineffective by the end of last year.
00:07:51 JACK GAINESIs it kind of like that old saying about soft? The best time to train a soft person is 10 years ago? The best time to train a new VZV person is 10 years ago? Is that what they're facing right now?
00:08:03 CURTIS FOXIt's a little bit of that. The other issue that they're running into is they just have nobody they can recruit into the ranks. They have an inverted demographic. in their country, and so they just have no healthy young people that can serve as soldiers. So they can go through and round up the homeless, and they can go through the prisons, and they can round those people up. They have a vicious, vicious narcotics crisis in Russia, and they can put people who are addicted to substances in the armed forces, and you can throw those people in as cannon fodder, but they don't perform the soft mission very well. And they certainly don't make good elite light infantry. So they're in a real pickle as far as deploying elite forces go. And you need those elite units to conduct hybrid warfare. So maybe that's a good starting point.
00:08:51 JACK GAINESAre they recruiting other people than the White Caucus people from the steppes so they don't have a race issue that's also blocking it?
00:09:01 CURTIS FOXIt's entirely possible if they get desperate enough that, yeah, they'll start channeling them into elite units. I don't really have any direct evidence that they wouldn't have put people from an Asian disposition into, you know, let's say the 10th Spetsnaz Brigade.
00:09:14 JACK GAINESRight.
00:09:15 CURTIS FOXBut the big one to watch are the Chechens. The ruling family in Chechnya is allied with Vladimir Putin, and they're very willing to contribute troops. But one of the unspoken realities about that is that the more Chechens are organized into, you know, the Volstok and Zapad battalions and pushed into foreign wars. The fewer Chechens there are at home to cause trouble for Moscow. And there are other ethnicities that start getting uppity. Moscow will absolutely adopt similar tactics.
00:09:46 JACK GAINESSure. Now, the trick is, though, the surviving Chechens that are battle -hardened to come back to Chechnya, what's the risk that they'll flip the nation back towards independence?
00:09:56 CURTIS FOXIt's definitely on Putin's mind. But the goal is, first off, those individuals are loyal to the family and basically rules Chechnya through a puppet governor, let's say. It operates almost as an autonomous vassal state. And so they would first have to fight their own people. And then the second issue is that Moscow has absolutely no qualms about sending a special missions unit down there to round somebody up in their home. I mean, you can go to their Wikipedia page and they're open and honest about saying they still conduct operations in Chechnya all the time.
00:10:35 JACK GAINESActively hunting people down. Actively hunting people down.
00:10:37 CURTIS FOXpeople down. And they're on the southern end of Chechnya. And those guys will have no problem going up there and getting them. Okay.
00:10:45 JACK GAINESOkay. So it's dangerous, but it's unlikely. It's less likely right now. Yeah. Unless Russia comes out of this Ukraine conflict so battered that everyone starts seeing the blood in the water. Right.
00:10:57 CURTIS FOXThe one thing that could create a real separatist movement in Chechnya is if Kardarov and his cronies decide that they're just going to switch allegiances. Sure. If he decides that Putin is weak or that serving Moscow is no longer in the family interest, that would change everything.
00:11:14 JACK GAINESOkay. So we were talking about the development and evolution of hybrid warfare.
00:11:20 CURTIS FOXYeah, yeah. We got a little off track.
00:11:24 JACK GAINESThat's okay. We'll just play as is. It's fine.
00:11:27 CURTIS FOXWell, and, you know, Chechnya is a good place to start for this because the first and second Chechen wars were so taxing on Russian and international standing and resources and manpower and so embarrassing for Moscow that they realized they needed to come up with another way to do this. They needed a way that would limit their investment, limit their risks, limit their attribution, and let's say stack the deck in their favor so it was more likely that they could slant the outcome to victory.
00:11:57 JACK GAINESAnd they've had a long term intelligence practice. And so do you think that a lot of their successes in intelligence were just incorporated into a more military style that they just weaponized it a little bit more? to what we want, our desires for Russia.
00:12:29 CURTIS FOXRussia. So let me kind of outline the framework here, I guess, and I think I'll answer your question. Sure. There is a ruling class in Russia of about 200 individuals. Right. Those 200 individuals, they call themselves Slovy. Most of them were educated during the Soviet era. The education system collapsed when the Soviet Union collapsed and it was never rebuilt. And so their talent pool that is constantly getting smaller and dwindling. A lot of these guys are into their mid -70s now. Some of them, like Sergei Lavrov, came from the Foreign Service, but a lot of them are simply KGB men like Putin.
00:13:08 JACK GAINESSo these aren't long -term families of Russia? No. They're not the Vanderbilts.
00:13:14 CURTIS FOXYeah, they're not oligarchs, for sure. They're only oligarchs in the fact that they wield in fun.
00:13:19 JACK GAINESYeah.
00:13:20 CURTIS FOXBasically, the promise that Vladimir Putin made to the Russian elites when they started this project, when he came to power as president, was that, look, if you back me, everybody's going to do very well. We will all get wealthy. But if you oppose me, that's a great way to die.
00:13:37 JACK GAINESHere, let me prove it. Here's an example over here.
00:13:40 CURTIS FOXAnd he is not the return of Joseph Stalin. He is not that powerful. He is Russia's most important power broker. Sure. He gained power by playing all of these different factions off one another. Sure. A lot of the oligarchs that, you know, were Russian Soviet officials that seized state assets after the Soviet Union collapsed. Right. And that's where they got their money. Those individuals are outside the rule and click, but they absolutely realize if they oppose the rule and click, they could wake up in the morning, you know, slip on some bullets in the shower and that'll be.
00:14:15 CURTIS FOXSo hybrid warfare, it evolved simply because the people that make decisions in Russia understand how military intelligence works to a certain extent. And they know how military intelligence is supposed to support active combat. They're basically strategic reconnaissance assets for each brigades in particular are Russian military district. So think of Marine Force Recon or maybe the 75th Ranger Regiment. Their job is to fill first and foremost an information role, an intelligence role. And they all actually report up to the GRU, which is the Military Intelligence Service. And the GRU is actually the Russians. Most effective intelligence agency. It's the only one that wasn't catastrophically reorganized after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It's insulated from all of those post -Soviet shakeups. And so they've maintained a steady course as an institution. Then the SVR, the Foreign Intelligence Service, which is kind of like the Russian MI6. So the GRU is traditionally responsible for planning these interventions. They plan the Russo -Georgian War. They plan the annexation of Crimea. They're probably planned. They weren't Donbass. And we know they planned Syria. And they did pretty well in planning all those things because that's their job.
00:15:37 JACK GAINESAnd it's also because they're an intelligence organization. They handle people. They have networks of sources in the country that they, whether by pay or by patriotism or other methods, they have them in their pockets. it makes it easy to move from just what we think of as intelligence as just passively collecting and reporting for other people to decide, to actually manipulating the environment so that it is open to the type of operation you want to achieve, or even to achieve a foreign policy goal without operations. So I could see how that would build into hybrid warfare.
00:16:17 CURTIS FOXI think you're hitting the nail on the head. So, you know, when they need to remind a former Soviet Republic, let's just say, you know, Georgia, you know, it will be the GRU that will collect the information for the general staff and then organize, should be to Moscow, a limited deployment of military forces to, you know, stand up some kind of a militia in a place like South Australia.
00:16:44 CURTIS FOXThe GRU will have their coordinating information campaign to create a narrative for the intervention. Something along the lines of ethnic Russians are being brutalized. Vladimir Putin's regime has an obligation to act to protect its citizens abroad. The GRU will manufacture passports and distribute them to people in a place like Transnistria. That is the basis of hybrid warfare. Once they can create a little bit of maneuver room and enough political chaos, that's when they can actually start inserting elite forces and then perhaps stand up some proxy forces that can frustrate local military and police. And then if needed, they can accelerate and surge in the VDV to solidify their gains.
00:17:32 JACK GAINESI've also seen where Russia also starts integrating with local criminals. Sure. Pay them off or bring in gangs to support them.
00:17:40 CURTIS FOXNo, I definitely wouldn't put it past them. They will do that. I think that they're mostly concerned about making sure that the local junta stays loyal and there are real consequences for junta that stabs them in the back.
00:17:55 JACK GAINESRight. The Russians have done a pretty successful job of pushing the French out of Algeria and the Sahel. And some recent operations, because a lot of those look very much like hybrid operations to support a strong man in those countries taking power.
00:18:11 CURTIS FOXI talk a little about that in chapter one. First off, the Soviets were very eager to conduct what we might consider hybrid operations in Africa. Their operatives, they always claimed that these were Russians that were on vacation, which is preposterous. And if they're not Russians, then they're Cuban proxies, places like Angola or Namibia. But the Russians are falling in on a Soviet tradition.
00:18:36 JACK GAINESDo you want to talk a little bit about how hybrid operations is used pre -conflict or how it's used to maintain control of a population? Where would you like to go next?
00:18:49 CURTIS FOXI think where I'd really like to go is to emphasize that what we're calling hybrid operations in a lot of ways is very similar to NATO doctrine in terms of preparatory activities. The term we use in the United States often is pre -crisis activities, which is a civil affairs specialty. You know, go into country, make friends, assess infrastructure, special forces. does this a lot. We're conducting joint training missions and helping them construct counterterrorism task forces. The next piece of that, though, is war is becoming imminent. And that's where we start conducting operational preparation of the environment. And that's where we actually start figuring out how would we put forces in countries, maybe starting with SOF, and then how would SOF prepare the battle space for the introduction of heavy ground forces? This is part of what the Russians do so well in hybrid warfare. And the final piece is what we would call advanced force operations, which means war has been declared and we now have to facilitate the movement of SOF into country now. And there has to be preliminary engagement and targeting in order to allow the units that need to go kinetic to be kinetic the moment they arrive on the ground, which means we need advanced forces to do all the intelligence work. in order to build those target packages beforehand. And that's the real heavy lifting secret sauce that the Russians did so well in the Crimean annexation. The difference is that the joint force commander in the United States can't just call the State Department and say, I need you to come up with a framework of sanctions so that it ties into this messaging campaign in order to support the actions that we're executing on the ground. In Moscow, the economics and the diplomatic initiatives and the information campaign are all coordinated, and they're coordinated in a way where they're supposed to complement one another so that you get this whole -of -government holistic approach to crisis management, let's say. And that's the real difference.
00:21:01 JACK GAINESYou're saying that they do a better job of integrating the political culture, economic, and military information aspects of an operation.
00:21:10 CURTIS FOXTheir system is not as big. That might be the best way to say it. And Vladimir Putin can just wave his wand and tell people this is what's going to happen. And so that's a piece of it. Yes. There's no congressional deliberation. There's no consulting of the big eight committee.
00:21:27 JACK GAINESSure. No NSC knife rights.
00:21:28 CURTIS FOXrights.
00:21:31 CURTIS FOXYeah. Their goal is to coordinate all those things so that they complement one another. We're absolutely capable. withering sanctions on any country in the world and cutting off a country from the dollar is the kiss of death. 90 % of the global transactions are conducted in the dollar. But we don't coordinate that with ground operations. We are developing a common lexicon around irregular warfare in the United States where essentially we're saying that these are actions that are meant to compete for the goodwill and influence of the population itself. Sure.
00:22:09 JACK GAINESHow do you see the U .S. and its Western allies mitigating, managing, responding to Russian hybrid operations?
00:22:19 CURTIS FOXI think Jim Mattis actually gave us the answer. And, you know, during the assault on Dior al -Zor in Syria, the Wagner mercenaries, they were coordinating mechanized force that included main battle tanks, and they were maneuvering on this outpost. And there were a number of U .S. soft personnel at that outpost. And they used existing deconfliction to tell them, hey, like you're coming across the Euphrates River. You're entering American zone. Stop. And it was Gerasimov himself who actually told Mattis that, no, those aren't Russian guys. Those aren't our guys. We can't control them. We don't know what they're doing. And Mattis had authorized days before a massive rack and stack of air power. at the disposal of those units on the ground. And the moment that he got a confirmation from Grasmap that those aren't Russian troops, he said, all right, well, they're all going to die. And they were pounded to death. The New York Times reported something like 200 Wagner mercenaries dying in that assault. And what the Russians wanted was for U .S. civilian leadership to waffle and to worry that we could be killing Russians, we could be starting a war, we have to be careful. But the recipe for success here is to give them no ambiguity as to what your response is going to be if they violate a red line. And then to stack the assets up as necessary to follow through on your ultimatum. So you tell them, look, if you cross this line, we're going to hammer you. And when they cross it, you hammer them. But let's say for the Russian troll farms, right? These are run by the GRU and they're meant to turn the temperature up in Western politics. The first piece is that we actually do have the capability to a certain extent to shut those farms down. If I were advising a policymaker, I would tell them that we need to think about using that to shut those farms down as needed. and identifying the people that are participating in those farms because they are disruptive. You know, democracies need to be able to function. I will also say that, I mean, this is a modern variation of a tactic that the Russians have been using. They've always been prying a crowbar into fissures between the European powers and frustrating their political process for centuries, specifically to make sure that there's never going to be a coalition that's actually strong enough to march east towards Russia.
00:24:51 JACK GAINESOkay. We're going to cut the episode there, but stay tuned next week for the exciting conclusion of Curtis Fox and hybrid warfare.
00:25:11 JACK GAINESOkay. Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at [email protected]. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U.S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes of One CA Podcast.
00:00:04 Part II IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:01:17 CURTIS FOXYes, I think so. I will say I don't call out Syria specifically as a hybrid war. It has hybrid -ish characteristics. But it was almost a hybrid war. It lacks Aktivnost, Venezovnost, and Maskarovka. Sure.
00:01:42 CURTIS FOXI mean, I tell you what, I speak Russian, and they're still hard for me to pronounce. Maybe the first term we can go into is Maskarovka, because this is one of the Russian's favorite terms. And that literally just translates to camouflage. This is the hidden hand approach that the Russians have in history done so well. They don't want these things to be directly attributable to Moscow. Activnost just literally means activity. And what they mean by that is all of the little things that you do in the background to try to frustrate. So you see it as Israel has tried to work with them as a governing body,you see it as Israel has tried to work with them as a governing body, or do you see it as Israel has ignored them as a governing body?
00:02:17 CURTIS FOXto work with them as a
00:02:22 CURTIS FOXbody? Preferably, you'd have them stay in their barracks. And you want to set up blockades that frustrate public transit and encourage people to stay in their homes, or maybe come out and mass protest. preferably in front of city hall or a police station. If you look through the complications, you can actually find points and solutions.
00:02:43 CURTIS FOXfind points and solutions. Surprise. But it's surprise of, you know, like speedy movement. And what they mean by that is if they can use soft forces to rapidly deploy and establish some sort of a foothold on a limited number of key objectives. then they need the rapid maneuver of heavy ground forces to entrench those gains. This was the secret sauce that did so well in the Crimean annexation back in 2014. So the VDV, the Russian Airborne Services, those are really the elite trigger pullers of the Russian armed forces. And once a number of Spetsnaz battalions had advanced far enough up roads and blackaded positions coming into the peninsula, The VDB immediately used a number of secured local airstrips to move in forces in mass. And they spread rapidly throughout the peninsula and secured all those gains.
00:03:53 CURTIS FOXThere's some real similarities in the way Russia continues to manipulate and maintain influence in Georgia. and the Serbian approach in Bosnia. That's probably where they get a lot of these ideas from. If you look at Georgia, there's an autonomous enclave called South Asatia, and then another one called the Bukazia, which is right up on the coast of the Black Sea. And the Russians would have us believe that these enclaves had ethnic Russians in them, that they would have you believe that they don't want anything to do with that government. And they want to remain segmented off and autonomous from the country with no trade and political independence.
00:04:48 CURTIS FOXSure. Yeah. Vladimir Putin actually talks about it as a genuine tragedy that these are Russian citizens that have been scattered across the globe and isolated from the government in their mother country. Never really offers so many resources to come home if it's really that big of a tragedy. And they don't seem to want to migrate to Russia on their own dime. But this being a civil affairs podcast, it's probably also worthy to point out something the Russians do very well. is they figure out what influencers have their hands on which buttons. They're very good at understanding which individuals have access to what information and which individuals run X, Y, and Z departments and who would it be good to make friends with.
00:05:51 CURTIS FOXI tell you what, my publisher made me take out three appendices and an additional chapter. I actually wrote a chapter. It was a comparative glance on U .S. doctrine to highlight how is the Russian apparatus, the political apparatus, how do they actually create authorizations for these interventions? And then, you know, how do they actually deploy military force from the available units that they have in SOF? And then I compared that to, you know, how we would do it in the United States. So that whole chapter was removed. And then I had separate appendices on the Soviet arsenal that Russia inherited in 1991, including the nuclear ordinance. Oh, my gosh. And then I had an appendice on the state procurement programs, GPV 2020 and 2027. And I go through. All the hardware that they've been purchasing over the last 10, 12 years, you know, for Army, Navy, Air Force, Strategic Rocket Forces.
00:07:00 SPEAKER_03But I also see Russia exporting the strategy. It seems like Iran is pulling strings for the Houthis to do upper -level trade -style operations. And they've got Hezbollah doing some forms of operations in support of Hamas. To me,
00:07:01 SPEAKER_02see Russia
00:07:01 CURTIS FOXexporting the strategy. It seems
00:07:06 CURTIS FOXthe Houthis to do upper -level trade
00:07:12 CURTIS FOXthey've got Hezbollah doing some forms
00:07:17 SPEAKER_03me, it seems like Russian style of hybrid warfare has been exported to... Demonstrate almost a black mirror to the U .S. goals of stability and trade by creating conditions that are always unstable,
00:07:19 CURTIS FOXstyle of
00:07:23 CURTIS FOXalmost a black mirror to the U .S. goals of stability and trade by creating conditions that are always unstable, are always right at a low level of conflict that allows for a lot of criminality.
00:07:32 SPEAKER_03always right at a low level of conflict that allows for a lot of criminality. And that opened that country region up to influence and Arnold Garck's taking advantage of resources and having a strong man in power. It seems like that notion has been exported.
00:07:38 CURTIS FOXthat opened that country region up
00:07:43 CURTIS FOXGarck's taking advantage of resources and having a strong man in power.
00:07:48 SPEAKER_02like that notion has been
00:08:03 CURTIS FOXIt's a little bit of that. The other issue that they're running into is they just have nobody they can recruit into the ranks. They have an inverted demographic in their country, and so they just have no healthy young people that can serve as soldiers. So they can go through and round up the homeless, and they can go through the prisons, and they can round those people up. They have a vicious, vicious narcotics crisis in Russia, and they can put people who are addicted. to substances in the armed forces, and you can throw those people in this can of fodder. And that level of threat might actually create conditions for Iran to allow.
00:08:34 SPEAKER_03And that level of threat might actually create conditions for Iran to allow. And they certainly don't make good elite light infantry.
00:08:38 CURTIS FOXallow. And they certainly don't make good elite light infantry. So they're in a real pickle as far as the point of these forces going. Now, your one example with Syria and the Wagner group charging against the special forces camp,
00:08:44 SPEAKER_03point of these forces going. Now, your one example with Syria and the Wagner group charging against the special forces camp, one thing that you brought up, and that is that the response was obvious and painful.
00:08:46 CURTIS FOXand the
00:08:50 CURTIS FOXcamp, one
00:08:57 SPEAKER_03Does that mean that when we see hybrid operations going on, not only do we have to counter the operation, but we have to kind of embarrass Russians for doing it?
00:09:01 CURTIS FOXdo we have to counter the operation, but we have to kind of embarrass Russians for doing it? I don't really have any direct evidence that they wouldn't have put people from an Asian disposition into, you know, let's say the 10th Spetsnaz Brigade. But the big one to watch are the Chechens. The ruling family in Chechnya is allied with Vladimir Putin. Very willing to contribute troops. But one of the unspoken realities about that is that the more Chechens are organized into the Vostok and Zapad battalions and pushed into foreign wars, the fewer Chechens there are at home to cause trouble for Moscow. And there are other ethnicities that start getting uppity. Moscow will absolutely adopt similar tactics.
00:09:57 CURTIS FOXIt's definitely on Putin's mind. But the goal is, first off, those individuals are loyal to the family. And Putin basically rules Chechnya through a puppet governor, let's say. It operates almost as an autonomous vassal state. And so they would first have to fight their own people. And then the second issue is that Moscow has absolutely no qualms about sending. a special missions unit down there to round somebody up in their home. I mean, you can go to their Wikipedia page and they're open and honest about saying they still conduct operations in Chechnya all the time.
00:10:37 CURTIS FOXActively hunting people down and they're on the southern end of Chechnya and those guys will have no problem going up there and getting them.
00:10:48 SPEAKER_02It's less likely right now.
00:10:56 CURTIS FOXRight. The one thing that could create a real separatist movement in Chechnya is if Kardarov and his cronies decide that they're just going to switch allegiances. If he decides that Putin is weak or that serving Moscow is no longer in the family interest, that would change everything.
00:11:20 SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. We're a little off track.
00:11:26 CURTIS FOXSure. Well, and, you know, Chechnya is a good place to start for this because the first and second Chechen wars were so taxing on Russian international standing and resources and manpower and so embarrassing for Moscow that they realized they needed to come up with another way to do this. They needed a way that would limit their investment, limit their risks, limit their attribution. And let's say stack the deck in their favor. So it was more likely that they could slam the outcome to victory.
00:12:08 SPEAKER_03Like so many people tied to their chair. That is.
00:12:29 CURTIS FOXYes. So let me kind of outline the framework here, I guess, and I think I'll answer your question. There is a ruling class in Russia of about 200 individuals. Those 200 individuals, they call themselves Slovy. Most of them were educated during the Soviet era. The education system collapsed when the Soviet Union collapsed and it was never rebuilt. And so their talent pool that is constantly getting smaller and dwindling. A lot of these guys are into their mid -70s now. Some of them, like Sergei Lavrov, came from the Foreign Service, but a lot of them are simply KGB men like Putin.
00:13:11 CURTIS FOXNo. Yeah, they're not oligarchs, for sure. They're only oligarchs in the fact that they wield influence. Basically, the promise that Vladimir Putin made to the Russian elites when they started this project. when he came to power as president, was that, look, if you back me, everybody's going to do very well. We will all get wealthy. But if you oppose me, that's a great way to die.
00:13:40 CURTIS FOXAnd he is not the return of Joseph Stalin. He is not that powerful. He is Russia's most important power broker. He gained power by playing all of these different factions off one another. A lot of the oligarchs that were Russian Soviet officials that seized state assets after the Soviet Union collapsed, and that's where they got their money. Those individuals are outside the rule and click, but they absolutely realize if they oppose the rule and click, they could wake up in the morning and slip on some bullets in the shower, and that'll be the end of them.
00:14:15 CURTIS FOXSo hybrid warfare. It evolved simply because the people that make decisions in Russia understand how military intelligence works to a certain extent, and they know how military intelligence is supposed to support active combat. They're basically strategic reconnaissance assets for each brigades, in particular, our Russian military district. So think of Marine Force Recon or maybe the 75th Ranger Regiment. Well, here's a question for you.
00:14:47 SPEAKER_03a question for you. Could they muster a credible threat against Europe? Because I was just talking to the GRU,
00:14:50 CURTIS FOXBecause I was just talking to the GRU, which is the Military Intelligence Service. And the GRU is actually the Russians' most effective intelligence agency. I was talking to Albert Augustino of 5th Corps, and it seems that the army is going towards more large division -on -division type of training.
00:15:00 SPEAKER_03I was talking to Albert Augustino of 5th Corps, and it seems that the army is going towards more large division -on -division type of training.
00:15:07 CURTIS FOX-on -division type of
00:15:09 SPEAKER_03And I was asking, of course, a fight. You believe that that actual 600 ,000 military force could actually become a viable threat to Europe?
00:15:19 CURTIS FOXSo the GRU is traditionally responsible for planning these interventions. They planned the Russo -Georgian War. They planned the annexation of Crimea. They probably planned the war in Donbass. And we know they planned Syria. And they did pretty well in planning all those things because that's their job.
00:16:17 CURTIS FOXExactly. I think you're hitting the nail on the head. So, you know, when they need to remind a former Soviet Republic, let's just say, you know, Georgia, you know, it will be the GRU that will collect the information for the general staff and then organize, should be to Moscow, a limited deployment of military forces to stand up some kind of a militia in a place like Southwest Asia. And the GRU will have their coordinating information campaign to create a narrative for the intervention.
00:16:44 CURTIS FOXGRU will have their coordinating information campaign to create a narrative for the intervention.
00:16:51 SPEAKER_03And that's 500 pages to get to that point.
00:16:52 CURTIS FOX500 pages to get to that point. Vladimir Putin's regime has an obligation to act to protect its citizens abroad. The GRU will manufacture passports and distribute them to people in a place like Transnistria. That is the basis of hybrid warfare. Once they can create a little bit of maneuver around enough political chaos, that's when they can actually start inserting elite forces and then perhaps stand up some proxy forces that can frustrate local military and police. And then if needed, they can accelerate and surge in the VDV to solidify their gains. You know,
00:17:31 SPEAKER_03know, it's funny. I was just arguing that use of KPOC needs to take the 95th and create an active duty element within. use of CAPOC, make it both a hybrid command corps that has active duty and reserves.
00:17:40 CURTIS FOXcorps that has active duty and reserves. They will do that. And start just running CA as its own element versus tied into SOF.
00:17:44 SPEAKER_03And start just running CA as its own element versus tied into SOF.
00:17:46 CURTIS FOXits own element versus tied into SOF. And there are real consequences for junta that stabs in the back. Yeah.
00:18:11 SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the CA community, they're all usually with masters or doctorates,
00:18:12 SPEAKER_03and the CA community, they're
00:18:13 CURTIS FOXall usually
00:18:15 SPEAKER_03with masters
00:18:15 CURTIS FOXor doctorates, and they are usually traveling the world.
00:18:16 SPEAKER_03doctorates, and they are usually traveling the world. So I can't talk down.
00:18:17 CURTIS FOXtraveling the world. So I can't talk down. You know, their operatives, they always claimed that these were Russians that were on vacation, which is just preposterous. And if they're not Russians, then they're Cuban proxies, places like Angola or Namibia. But the Russians are falling in on a Soviet tradition.
00:18:48 SPEAKER_03Right. That's half my career.
00:18:49 CURTIS FOXI think there's a home for civil affairs outside of Assad. And I think that civil affairs should create a functional specialty that focuses on post -work stabilization and reconstruction.
00:18:51 SPEAKER_03think there's a home for civil affairs outside of Assad. And I think that civil affairs should create a functional specialty that focuses on post -work stabilization and reconstruction.
00:19:01 CURTIS FOXand reconstruction. I was just listening to Petraeus, and he was discussing how when he was in Iraq,
00:19:03 SPEAKER_03was just listening to Petraeus, and he was discussing how when he was in Iraq, he was listening to the... to the plans for the campaign, and he's like, well, where's the post -conflict stabilization and reconstruction plan? And I just kind of waved him off, and he's like, well, that's pretty important. And I've heard other people say the same thing. What does Charlie Wilson say, that we suck at the endgame? But that's a market gap. That's a market gap that civil affairs, if they were to go to the 59 school and become planners and focus just on the post -conflict operations and stabilization...
00:19:09 CURTIS FOXplans for the campaign, and he's like, well, where's the post -conflict stabilization and reconstruction plan? And I just kind of waved him off, and he's like, well, that's pretty important. And I've heard other people say the same thing. What does Charlie Wilson say, that we suck at the endgame? But that's a market gap.
00:19:30 CURTIS FOXand focus just on the post -conflict operations and stabilization...
00:19:35 SPEAKER_03It would actually create values that the CA component would then build out.
00:19:35 CURTIS FOXactually create values that the CA component would then build out.
00:19:37 SPEAKER_03would then build
00:19:40 CURTIS FOXThis is part of what the Russians do so well in hybrid warfare. And the final piece is what we would call advanced force operations, which means war has been declared, and we now have to facilitate the movement of SOF into country now. And there has to be preliminary engagement and targeting. Right. You know, it's one thing that I've learned to respect about Peace Corps is that they send their people out,
00:20:05 SPEAKER_03it's one thing that I've learned to respect about Peace Corps is that they send their people out, and it's their force of personality that helps them survive.
00:20:08 CURTIS FOXthey send their people out, and it's their force of personality
00:20:10 SPEAKER_03it's their force of personality that helps them survive. And I think that if we had that same notion where we're training people in blunt force, but if we had them do foreign missions where they just had to... survive off their wits and their ability to build relations.
00:20:12 CURTIS FOXthem survive.
00:20:16 CURTIS FOXnotion where we're training people in blunt force, but if we had them do foreign missions where they just had to... survive off their wits and their ability to build relations. That would shift the thinking from tactical to relational conflict management, as well as how to go past force management to how do we build partners and allies so that they can also be with us in achieving a foreign policy objective.
00:20:26 SPEAKER_03would shift the thinking from tactical to relational conflict
00:20:27 CURTIS FOXfrom tactical to relational conflict management, as well as how to go past force management to how do we build partners and allies so that they can also be with us in achieving
00:20:31 SPEAKER_03management, as well as how to go past force management to ahow do we build partners and allies so that they can also be with us in achieving a foreign policy objective.
00:20:41 CURTIS FOXa foreign policy objective. So anyway, we're gunning down two hours, so I'm going to let you go. another so that you get this whole of government holistic approach. Exciting conclusion of Curtis Fox and hybrid warfare.
00:20:48 SPEAKER_03gunning down two hours, so I'm going to let you go.
00:20:56 SPEAKER_03conclusion of Curtis Fox and hybrid warfare.
00:20:57 CURTIS FOXof Curtis Fox and hybrid warfare. And that's the real difference.
00:21:09 CURTIS FOXYeah. First off their, their system is, it's not as big. Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like, subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform.
00:21:13 SPEAKER_03for listening. If you get a chance, please like, subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com.
00:21:21 CURTIS FOXif you're interested in coming
00:21:21 SPEAKER_02on the show or
00:21:22 CURTIS FOXhosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com.
00:21:27 SPEAKER_03I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes.
00:21:29 SPEAKER_02CA Association website in the show notes.
00:21:31 SPEAKER_03And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S.
00:21:31 SPEAKER_02now, most
00:21:33 CURTIS FOXcurrently out in the
00:21:36 CURTIS FOXor leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes once CA podcasts are conducted in the dollar.
00:21:42 SPEAKER_03is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes once
00:21:46 CURTIS FOXCA podcasts are conducted in the dollar.
00:21:47 SPEAKER_03CA podcasts are conducted
00:21:49 CURTIS FOXBut we don't coordinate that with ground operations. We are developing a common lexicon around irregular warfare. In the United States, we're essentially saying that these are actions that are meant to compete for the goodwill and influence of the population itself.
00:22:19 SPEAKER_02I think Jim Mattis actually gave us the answer.
00:22:20 CURTIS FOXMattis actually gave us the answer. And, you know, during the assaults on Dior al -Zor in Syria, the Wagner mercenaries, they were coordinating mechanized force that included main battle tanks, and they were maneuvering on this outpost. And there were a number of U .S. soft personnel at that outpost, and they used existing deconfliction to tell them, hey, like, you're coming across the Euphrates River, you're entering American zone, stop. It was Gerasimov himself who actually told Mattis that, no, those aren't Russian guys. Those aren't our guys. We can't control them. We don't know what they're doing. And Mattis had authorized days before a massive rack and stack of air power at the disposal of those units on the ground. And the moment that he got a confirmation from Gerasimov that those aren't Russian troops, he said, all right, well, they're all going to die. And they were pounded to death. The New York Times reported something like 200 Wagner mercenaries dying in that assault. And what the Russians wanted was for U .S. civilian leadership to waffle and to worry that we could be killing Russians, we could be starting a war, we have to be careful. But the recipe for success here is to give them no ambiguity as to what your response is going to be if they violate a red line. And then to stack the assets up as necessary to follow through on your ultimatum. So you tell them, look, if you cross this line, we're going to hammer you. And when they cross it, you hammer them. But let's say for the Russian troll farms, right? These are run by the GRU and they're meant to turn the temperature up in Western politics. The first piece is that we actually do have the capability to a certain extent to shut those farms down. If I were advising a policymaker, I would tell them that we need to think about using that to shut those farms down as needed and identifying the people that are participating in those farms because they are disruptive. You know, democracies need to be able to function. I will also say that, I mean, this is a modern variation of a tactic that the Russians have been using. They've always been prying a crowbar into fissures between the European groups. powers and frustrating their political process for centuries, specifically to make sure that there's never going to be a coalition that's actually strong enough to march east towards Russia.
-
Welcome to One CA Podcast.
As we go into the holidays, the One CA brings on the show's founder, John McElligott, to talk with Brian Hancock and Jack Gaines about the show's beginnings, current updates and goals for the future. So, stay tuned.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at https://www.civilaffairsassoc.org/podcast
---
Episode list:
Past Episodes:
202 Andrew Gonzalez on Marine Civil Affairs in the Pacific (Part II) 201 Andrew Gonzalez on Marine Civil Affairs in the Pacific (Part I) 200 Jörg Grössl on the NATO Civil-Military Cooperation Centre of Excellence 199 Jeffrey Fiddler and the U.S. Gaza Relief Mission 198 David Luna, State-sponsored criminality in strategic competition 197 Scott Mann "Nobody is Coming to Save You" 196 Jeffrey Fiddler on the DOD response to COVID 19 195 Cleo Paskal on PRC operations in Guam 194 Doug Stevens on faith-based diplomacy 193 Patrick Alley on Global Influence (Part II) 192 Patrick Alley on Global Influence (Part I) 191 Drew Biemer on Energy Sector Civil Affairs 190 Pavlo Kuktha on Ukraine Reconstruction 189 Phillip Smith in discussion with Brian Hancock 188 Part II, Mickey Bergman on Diplomacy in the Shadows 187 Part I, Mickey Bergman on Diplomacy in the Shadows 186 Major Gustavo Ferreira testifies at the U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission. 185 Scott Mann, Life After Afghanistan 184 Megan O’Keefe-Schlesinger on Information Operations. Part II. 183 Megan O’Keefe-Schlesinger. Leading Information Operations and Influence. Part I 182 Natacha Ciezki, from Zaire to America 181 Proxy Wars, by Pawel Bernat, Juneyt Gurer, and Cyprian Kozera 180 Sandor Fabian: Europe is Learning the wrong lessons from the conflict in Ukraine 179 Civil Affairs Innovation with Colonel Brad Hughes, part II 178 Civil Affairs Innovation with Colonel Brad Hughes, part I 177 Patrick Passewitz on the Sicilian Model 176 Part II, interview with J. David Thompson 175 Part I interview with J. David Thompson 174 Direct Commissions with Heater Cotter 173 Achieving post conflict stabilization with Prof. Beatrice Heuser (Pt.2) 172 Achieving post conflict stabilization with Prof. Beatrice Heuser (Pt.1) 171 Civil Military What? 170 Combat First Aid in Ukraine by Michael Baker 169 Part II, Bas Wouters on Influence and Persuasion 168 Part I, Bas Wouters on Influence and Persuasion 167 Electronic Warfare with Michael Gudmundson 166 On Alexei Navalny and Political Dissent 165 Part II of the Courtney Mulhern and Dan Joseph interview 164 Part I, Courtney Mulhern and Dan Joseph on the book "Backpack to Rucksack" 163 Sam Cooper on China political and Economic Warfare 162 Rob Boudreau and Joel Searls 161 Curtis Fox, Part II on Russian Hybrid Warfare 160 Curtis Fox: Part I, Russian Hybrid Warfare 159 Albert Augustine and V Corps CA 158 Introducing the 1st CAG Human Dimension Podcast 157 Part II Robert Curris on Psychological Operations integration with CA and SOF 156 Part I, Robert Curris on Psychological Operations integration with CA and SOF 155 Gen (R) David Petraeus at Carnegie 154 Angie Smith, Environmental Science and Foreign Policy 153 One CA Classic. John visits AUSA 152 Dan Blumenthal and Fred Kagan 151 Dan Blumenthal and Fred Kagan 150 The WestPoint Center for the Study of Civil-Military Operations 149 Part II. Tony Vacha on Civil Affairs in Europe and Africa 148 Part I.Tony Vacha on Civil Affairs in Europe and Africa 147 Jack’s first year hosting the One CA Podcast 146 Jess Langerud talks on medical diplomacy in Poland 145 Courtney Mulhern. Three tools to improve local public outreach 144 Garric Banfield on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade 143 Richard Messick. Advising partner nations on Rule of Law and anti-corruption 142 Scott DeJesse and the new Monuments Men and Women 141 Paul Hutchinson on the film ”Sound of Freedom” and human trafficking 140 Brian Hancock interview Col. Rachael Sherrer discuss Army Europe and Africa 139 John Cassara on China’s Criminal Economy 138 Part II. Joseph Long on relational leadership and military diplomacy 137 Part I. Joseph Long on relational leadership and military diplomacy 136 Joe Pastorek and the 95th CA Advanced Skills Detachment 135 Jack Gaines interview with Global Integrity 134 Calvin Chrustie on conflict and hostage negotiation 133 Part II: Afghan resettlement in the U.S. 132 Part I: Afghan resettlement in the U.S. 131 Climate and Security 130 Chris Hyslop on human rights and diplomacy 129 Special Episode: Digital Civil Reconnaissance with Carrick Longley and Stephen Hunnewell 128 128 Josh Bedingfield on Shadow Governments Part II 127 Josh Bedingfield on Shadow Governments, Part I 126 Juan Quiroz on CA leading in Competition 125 Chris Hyslop: The Peace Corps 124 Special episode. Jordan Harbinger interviews H.R. McMaster on his book ”Battlegrounds” 123 Part II 38G: Agriculture and foreign policy 122 Part I 38G: Agriculture and foreign policy 121 Korea Reunification by David Maxwell 120 Special episode. IWP: The Columbia Plan 119 Discussing the USMC, 31st MEU CA Marines 118 Part II. Integrating Civil Affairs, field operations and diplomacy, by former Under-Secretary, Michael Patrick Mulroy 117 Part I. former DASD, Michael Patrick Mulroy on Integrating Civil Affairs, field operations and diplomacy 116 Assad Raza talk-back on the Frank Sobchak interview 115 Frank Sobchak on advising and training partner nation forces 114 Special Episode from the IW Podcast: Slow Burn: How Security Cooperation shapes operational environments 113 Jodi Harman and the HillVets Foundation 112 David Maxwell on grand strategy 111 Civil Affairs and Security Cooperation with Chris Stockel 110 CSM Riccio Christmas Day Concert 109 John Hutcheson on Hiring our Heroes 108 Advertisement for the CSM Riccio holiday concert 107 Operation Joint Endeavor 106 Special episode: John McElligott passes the mic 105 Major John Burns on Ghost Team at NTC 104 Stanislava Mladenova on Civ-Mil Relationships in Low-Intensity Conflict and State Fragility 103 Benjamin Ordiway and Anthony Pfaff 102 Nick Krohley and Lt Col Stefan Muehlich on Doctrinal Comparison, Part 2 101 Nick Krohley and Lt Col Stefan Muehlich on Doctrinal Comparison, Part 1 100 Episode 100 of the One CA Podcast 99 Theater Information Advantage Element98 Brig Gen Chris Dziubek of the 351st CACOM 97 Mark Delaney on Civil Affairs Skills for Post Military Life 96 Colonel Marco Bongioanni on Emergency Preparedness Liaison Officers 95 Maj Gen Jeff Coggin of USACAPOC(A) 94 Operation Allies Refuge: Lessons on Interagency and Multinational Collaboration 93 Vish Odedra on COVID-19 Vaccinations in the UK 92 LTC Greg Banner on Training for Unconventional Warfare 91 Chris Bryant on Social Media for CA 90 CA Issue Papers 2021 - Part 3 89 CA Issue Papers 2021 - Part 2 88 CA Issue Papers 2021 - Part 1 87 USACAPOC(A) Command Strategic Initiatives 86 Civil Affairs Interagency Panel - Part 2 85 Civil Affairs Interagency Panel - Part 1 84 Zach Hyleman and Kevin Chapla on FAO and CA 83 Civil Affairs in Regional Competition for Influence - Part 2 82 Civil Affairs in Regional Competition for Influence - Part 1 81 SFC Josh Spiers on San Pedro Sula, Honduras 80 Major Lauren Holl on San Pedro Sula, Honduras 79 Josh Bedingfield on Human Network Analysis 78 Lieutenant General Eric Wesley on Civil Competition - Part 2 77 Lieutenant General Eric Wesley on Civil Competition - Part 1 76 Maj Gen Hugh Van Roosen on a Career in SF, CA, and PSYOP 75 Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Coggin of USACAPOC(A) 74 Colonel Mattia Zuzzi of the Multinational CIMIC Group 73 Jonathan Papoulidis on Country Coordination Platforms 72 Colonel Frank van Boxmeer of NATO CCOE 71 LTC Matthias Wasinger of the Austrian Armed Forces 70 Request for Capabilities Brief Guests and Show Hosts 69 Lt Col Jahn Olson and Lt Col Korvin Kraics on III Marine Expeditionary Force 68 LTC Albert Augustine on CA Missions in Africa 67 Justin Constantine 66 John Steed of Tesla Government on GIS 65 65 Digital Civil Reconnaissance with Carrick Longley and Stephen Hunnewell 64 Joe Pastorek on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade's Advanced Skills Detachment 63 Lauren Ladenson, Lieutenant Colonel Matt Holmes, and Lieutenant Colonel Kyle Kouri on Defense Support to Stabilization (DSS) 62 CPT Al Oh and SGM Chris Melendez discuss Civil Reconnaissance 61 Dr. E. Casey Wardynski, ASA (M&RA) on Talent Management 60 LTC Scott Dickerson on the Army CA Force Modernization Assessment 59 MAJ Ashley Holzmann on the History of US Propaganda and Psychological Operations 58 Doowan Lee on Innovating Influence Intelligence 57 LTC Marco Bongioanni on the International Visitor Leadership Program 56 Paul Giannone on CA in Vietnam and his Career in Public Health 55 LTC Jeff Uherka and COL Steve Barry of Joint Task Force - Bravo 54 John Barsa, Acting Administrator of USAID 53 Dr. Ajit Maan - Narrative Warfare 52 Karen Walsh and Bron Morrison of Dexis Consulting 51 Intergrating Civil Affairs, with MAJ Brian Hancock and Dr. Timothy Darr 50 COL Steve Battle on CA Support for the COVID-19 Outbreak in Korea 49 LTC Rachel Sullivan and MAJ Mike Karlson on CA during the COVID-19 Pandemic in Korea 48 Dr. Lynn Copeland on the Future of Civil Information Management 47 Letting the CAT out of the Bag Part 2 46 Letting the CAT out of the Bag, Part 1 45 MAJ Ian Duke on the need for a Civil Knowledge Battalion 44 MAJ James Ontiveros discusses Civil Affairs and Megacities 43 Captains Chapla, Micciche, and Staron on Storyboards as the TPS Reports of the Army 42 LTC Sue Gannon on Leading the 450th CA Battalion 41 Sean McFate on the New Rules of War, Part 2 40 Sean McFate on the New Rules of War, Part 1 39 Abubakr Elnoor on Darfur and Terrorist Recruitment 38 Devin Conley on the National Training Center 37 General Anthony Zinni on a Unified, Interagency Command 36 Garric Banfield on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade 35 Justin Richmond on the Impl. Project 34 Alexandra Lamarche on Internally Displaced People in Cameroon 33 Jamie Schwandt on Swarm Intelligence, Swarm Learning, and Red Teams 32 Jay Liddick and Scott Dickerson on the CA Force Modernization Assessment 31 Narayan Khadka on Nepal, castes, and community trauma 30 Jay Liddick and Scott Dickerson on CA in Large Scale Combat Operations 29 Giancarlo Newsome and Jesse Elmore on Military Government Specialists 28 Nicholas Krohley on Human Terrain and CA Integration 27 Dale Yeager with Travel Safety Tips 26 Cori Wegener on Cultural Heritage Preservation 25 Major General Darrell Guthrie of USACAPOC(A) 24 Kwadjo Owusu-Sarfo on Ghana and Boko Haram 23 Manya Dotson on Life in the NGO Community 22 Wyatt Hughes Trains the Central Readiness Force of Japan 21 Bonus episode with Ryan McCannell of USAID 20 Ryan McCannell of USAID on the Evolution of CA in Sub-Saharan African 19 Arnel David on Strategy in the 21st Century 18 Michael Coates and Mark Grimes, Startup Radio Network 17 Max Steiner and Mazi Markel, CA Issue Paper 16 Diana Parzik, USAID Office of Civilian-Military Cooperation 15 Will Ibrahim, S-9 of 2/1 CAV 14 What is Civil Affairs - AUSA Answers 13 Scott Fisher and Information Operations 12 Aleks Nesic and James Patrick Christian of Valka-Mir 11 Norm Cotton of the Institute for Defense Analyses 10 Kevin Melton, USAID Office of Transition Initiatives 9 Dr. Larry Hufford discusses the 20th Anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland 8 Valor Breez and Jarrett Redman on "Beyond Hearts and Minds" 7 John Stefula and PKSOI 6 Michael Schwille, Iraq and Djibouti and RAND 5 Gonul Tol, Middle East Institute, on Turkey 4 Roberto Carmack, PhD, on Russian actions 3 Sean Acosta, Instructor, USAJFKSWCS 2 Valerie Jackson, 4th CA Group, USMC 1 Jon May: Artificial Intelligence for HA/DR Operations - LORELEI
---
Special thanks to Cool Jazz Hot Bassa for sampling music in their
album, Energy Jazz Playlist.
Retrieved at: https://youtu.be/bdWUj2NYDYQ?si=00ylFfJ6DhGCwPsO
---
Transcript
00:00:03 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:40 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWelcome to the 1CA podcast. I'm John McElligott, Major of the U .S. Army Reserve, and I will be your host for today's session. 00:00:47 JACK GAINESThis is Jack Gaines,and I will also be your host for this session.
BRIAN HANCOCK
I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I too will be your host for this session. Today, on the anniversary of One Civil Affairs Podcast, we have brought three hosts together to discuss where One CA Podcast has been, where we are today, and where we plan to take the show in the future. By happenstance, we're all here and here on the anniversary of One Civil Affairs Podcast. I think it's fate that we celebrate the organization and the listeners who have made One CA what it is today. Quick disclaimer before we continue. A reminder to the audience that all remarks are solely those of the presenters and do not necessarily represent the views of the United States Army or the Department of Defense. Let's start at the beginning. God, founder of 1CA Podcasts, executive extraordinaire of muckety -muck, running your business on a civil affairs board, and you come up, I guess, with this crazy idea to start 1CA Podcasts. How did that happen? Why don't you tell us a little bit about the origins of this incredible show?00:01:55 JOHN MCELLIGOTTI'd be glad to. So I think some of this blame probably goes back to you too. Uh -oh. So we were training together. We were going through the civil affairs qualification course, the reserve component, several years ago. And this was at a time when we had a team combined with active component and reserve component soldiers and actually soldiers from other countries. And I think that was the first time... that I had really felt this connection with the active component being reservist my whole time. And it was valuable. And so I wondered to myself, as we had a bunch of downtime waiting for the next missions, I had this thought, how do we keep this alive? And podcasting really started to grow nationally, internationally. I thought, wow, maybe I could do this. Can we get people on a show where the bar hopefully for entry is low enough? just to talk about stuff. Now, the goal for myself was, yes, to connect each other so that we can keep that discussion alive. I think the selfish goal for me was to learn. I wanted to bring people on so that I could know more about the civil affairs regiment, branch, et cetera, the whole environment, so that people could come to me and I can ask them questions in a simple format and then quickly learn.00:03:13 BRIAN HANCOCK
That's awesome. Studies show that when people ask questions of others, the perception is that the person asking the question is more intelligent or more knowledgeable. The reality is, I know when I'm asking questions of our guests, and I suspect from what you said that the experience is similar for you, we are in receive mode. I mean, we're just learning amazing things from amazing people all the time. That is wonderful.00:03:37 JOHN MCELLIGOTTI need to hear from other people. And the other point of this was... understanding the value of the balance between officers and NCOs. And so there's Sergeant Sarah Kelly at the time who helped me to launch some of this idea to let that grow. And the thought early on was to have this balance between NCOs and officers. Now, historically, I think most of the guests we've had and the hosts we've had tend to be officers with some NCOs, some really standouts. But hopefully that's something we'll get to later on is How do we get more NCOs involved? Because the wealth of knowledge they bring to the table.00:04:12 BRIAN HANCOCK
Well said on that. And actually, Sergeant Kelly, she interviewed me way back when. I think that was Rim of the Pacific where we made up some new processes for measuring progressing planetary assistance disaster relief. That was a fun episode. She did a really good job. So, yeah, I agree. We definitely need more NCOs, especially of that caliber, to come on and help with the show. Now,00:04:18 JOHN MCELLIGOTTof the Pacific00:04:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
you told us a little bit about bringing her on board. What was it like running the show back then? I mean, there was extensive video editing. Our equipment wasn't as modern. What was that experience like from a technical and academic point of view?00:04:49 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWell, gladly we had Zoom and we had ways to dial in Skype and so on, but smartphones helped out a great deal. But yeah, it's not like today. So Jack will hopefully cover artificial intelligence and programs that you're using right now to make this easier, a little bit easier. He's taking it to the next level. So some conversations were simply a recorder with batteries placed next to my phone to record a conversation. Some of them were just really winging it with a lot of editing that was required. And my dog barking. Yeah, that's the moment. That's the moment, right? Or the worst is when someone is blowing leaves. Or they've got work going on outside that you have no control over.00:05:33 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, that's why we have these roll -it -ins here and here. If we just close them down and they do what they don't do,00:05:36 JOHN MCELLIGOTTwhat they don't do, we're good. So, yeah, we've made huge strides over the years, in large part to what Jack has brought to the table on the quality of what you guys do.00:05:44 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, well said. And it sounds like we have a long history of mascots, starting with the dog, for 1CA podcast. Now we have Jabba the Cat as our current mascot. There are costs associated with doing this. This isn't free. The Civil Affairs Association is not profitable. And one of the ways that you creatively sought to close that funding gap and sought sponsors for the shows. And to this day, we often hear some of those sponsors that you brought on board, helping with the show, helping us defray the cost. How did you do that?00:06:15 JOHN MCELLIGOTTYeah, so we wanted this to be cost neutral as much as possible. I think for the production costs, we were the pitch to the Civil Affairs Association at the time was. If we can bring on sponsors at a decent rate, then we can cover those production costs and keep this cost neutral.00:06:32 BRIAN HANCOCK
Jack, get right on that, on our bottom line to be tripled in the next six months. Right.00:06:36 BRIAN HANCOCKSure. I would love that. But right now we're doing just like YouTubers where the YouTube inserts an advertisement and sends you, you know,00:06:37 JACK GAINESwould love that.00:06:44 BRIAN HANCOCKand sends you, you know, 11 cents for the first billion downloads. Exactly. All right. Yeah.00:06:49 JACK GAINESAll right. Yeah.00:06:50 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWorking on the first billion. Yeah. We have to monetize this,00:06:52 BRIAN HANCOCK
We have to monetize this, guys. Let's keep that up. All right, John. So yeah,00:06:55 JOHN MCELLIGOTTAll right, John. So yeah, but it's not a big, civil affairs is not a big industry for companies doing products and services. I don't know if we'll ever get there, but there is a short list of companies who want to advertise to this community. So those are the ones that we reached out to and we were successful in getting a few. So if you're a company out there, if you want to market to anyone listening to this show, please contact Jack, contact the team, and we can get an episode together for you.00:07:24 BRIAN HANCOCK
And I know we can support that. We have some very interesting demographics that we get that are not common in my experience. You did this for four years. Wow, right? And you have the great hand to prove it. Yeah. It doesn't make me feel so bad and so old. But what were some of your favorite episodes in that time that you recorded?00:07:35 JOHN MCELLIGOTTyou have the great hand to prove it. Yeah.00:07:41 JACK GAINESwere some of your favorite episodes in that time that you recorded? And again, give the numbers because we have a running number. And I think, Jack, I don't know if you'll link the master list with all the... Look at that already. Oh, it's linked. Yeah, the numbers on the link in front of you is you guys correlated with the actual show. Go ahead.00:07:55 BRIAN HANCOCKthe numbers on the link in front of you is you guys correlated with the actual show. Go ahead.00:07:58 BRIAN HANCOCK
guys correlated with the actual show. Go ahead. Give us some of your favorite ones so people can look these up and relive the glory.00:08:04 JOHN MCELLIGOTTSo I think there are three that come to mind. You guys have to help me out with the numbers here, but I think General Zinni, General Anthony Zinni from the U .S. Marine Corps, that interview was fantastic. Such a deep wealth of experience that he brought to the table. And that was just sitting at my kitchen table, talking to him and going through the network of the Civil Affairs Association to get him on the line. And I think because he spoke at one of the association meetings six months prior or whatever.00:08:37 BRIAN HANCOCKThat was episode 37? 37.00:08:38 JOHN MCELLIGOTT37. Thank you. There we are.00:08:40 JACK GAINESYeah, that is an early episode. We're at what, 200 and something?00:08:44 JOHN MCELLIGOTTYeah. Well, to put that into context, by the way, after four years, I think I... I worked down 106, 107 until turning over to Jack. Right, and then now we're at episode 200 over a much shorter period.00:08:54 BRIAN HANCOCKa much shorter period. Right, but we've also changed our pace. We're doing one every two weeks. We're doing one weekly, but we're actually only adding one additional show. We're splitting long -form interview in half so that we're adding one show, but we're hitting it weekly to fill in the time. That's awesome. Yeah.00:09:14 JOHN MCELLIGOTTThat's awesome. To your question, the other two that stood out to me were the interview, I think it was two parts, with Shomnik Fate talking about the new rules of war. Yeah. What a smart guy. And I think that was really fascinating to bring his insight, somebody who's basically an academic teaching at the War College. Not just an academic.00:09:37 JACK GAINESjust an academic. I mean, he served in special operations. He served as a mercenary. He has every type of experience on the government side, on the private side, on the secret squirrel side doing this. So that ability to have all those different perspectives, you know, as kind of an integrator to look at what that big picture is and could be. That's a book that he wrote, New Rules of War, Victory in the Age of Durable Disorder. referred to me by a Marine Corps infantry officer, probably the best military book I had written about that.00:10:17 JACK GAINESNice. Yeah. And a name like McFate. Isn't it? While running around in the shadows. Yeah. It's just brilliant.00:10:22 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. It's just brilliant. It's just built for you. Yeah. Oh, that was episode 40 and 41, by the way. So that was a good run. Yeah, that was really close to when you had General Zinni.00:10:28 JOHN MCELLIGOTTthe way. So that was a good run. Yeah, that was really close to when you had General Zinni.00:10:33 BRIAN HANCOCKWell done. Oh my God.00:10:33 JOHN MCELLIGOTTdone. Oh my God. So let me continue on this Marine Corps piece. I think she was then Colonel Valerie Jackson. Now I think she's Brigadier General. So the Marine Corps perspective on civil affairs was great for me as an Army guy to hear. The last one I'll talk about is... That was episode number two. Number two. You were hitting a hard back then.00:10:55 BRIAN HANCOCKa hard back then.00:10:57 JOHN MCELLIGOTTDigital Civil Reconnaissance with Carrick Longley and Steve Huntawell. Talking about their perspective and what their company at the time was analyzing. in the civil domain and how we as civil affairs soldiers and Marines can conduct a lot of our work remotely, prep us and the commands that we support. So yeah, great tools and just the process that I think going back to that episode, we can still use today.00:11:26 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, that was episode 129. That was the last one we broadcast of your time as the lead host and showrunner. Nice.00:11:35 JACK GAINESHeard us strong, finish strong. The digital state of reconnaissance, I know that when General Zubek retired from 351, was over in Korea as the G9, they had pioneered as their information systems, different languages and different technologies, platforms, very complex. So they actually pioneered a concept. And I think there's still a paper that we might be able to link to, if I can look it up. on digital civil reconnaissance because the concept is still valid of on reserve battle assemblies, area -aligned civil affairs units and develop some of the civil picture that's needed for real -world operations in pieces over those battle assemblies and then send it forward as kind of a longer -term reachback, not a fast RFI process, but a longer -term development process to support the folks who are actually doing this operation, which is really an idea. Right. So, and that's still alive. I know some of the organizations who have been involved may not be doing it anymore, but the philosophy, the concept, and some of the actors are certainly still doing that. Well, Brian, you just recently had Andrew Gonzalez on. Yeah. He was talking about CKI TAC, which is something that has potential for more than just the Marine Corps and wider partnerships. This concept of developing civil picture, I'm not going to say cop, I think is a loaded term, but developing a civil picture that will enable maneuver is a very complicated topic. It requires a lot of information from a lot of players across the AC, right? And we haven't had a fantastic way to collect, collate, analyze, and display that. But TKI TAC... may be a piece of that puzzle. And, you know, I'm excited to see when it comes out what we do with that. So thanks for bringing it up, Jack. Appreciate it. Well,00:13:29 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWell, gentlemen, I'd say enough about where it started. I want to turn this over to Lieutenant Colonel Hancock, Brian Hancock. At the time we were, you were captain. I think I was first lieutenant when we met. Right. How I twisted your arm to get involved with all the shenanigans with the 1CA podcast and how you got started, how it's gone so far and what you've learned.00:13:52 JACK GAINESTo be honest with you, John, after you did four years, I just felt sorry for a year, so I felt I had to jump in as my battle brother from Saundry.00:13:57 BRIAN HANCOCKas my00:13:59 JACK GAINESNo, no, that's not it. Actually, I have a far more diplomatic series of answers to give you, starting with the fact that my technical skills were becoming a little bit outdated. You mentioned how I graded from tape recordings and basic microphones to now. digital capabilities i know jack will talk more about this all the way through ai and programming and things like that and i had very similar experience to what you did in terms of when i was doing tactical work but now here we are with digital recordings podcasts ais and things like that and i recognize hey i need to get back into this if you want to be influence operations you have to understand a little bit about how to actually do that right you need to pony up at some point so there was an opportunity for me there and You know, I'm a little bit older than both of you gentlemen, and so I'm kind of at that point where I feel like I have to not only share anything I've learned with the community before my time is up, but also find people who have a lot to share and great knowledge who may not have been necessarily extensively published in other formats, right, to help preserve that intellectual property that the larger diplomatic community, including civil affairs, has developed over time. So that was kind of a foundation -type exciting project to collate some of that knowledge. And then, of course, the people involved, right? The journey matters. And who wouldn't want to work with Major John McElligot, Major Jack Gates? You guys are amazing, true professionals, fantastic, fun to be around, and really made this experience amazing for me. So I jumped on for all of those reasons. I would encourage others who are interested in doing it. It's not that hard. I know there are times. The biggest time sink in my experience is sound editing, which we don't really have to do so much anymore as guest hosts. Jack, you'll be talking more about some of the capabilities that you have to do that. But as the executive producer, you've managed a lot of that and given me the freedom to just go find amazing people with amazing stories to share. Throw on the recording. It's not live, so it's easy to do in as many retakes as you want. And then you turn it into these amazing shows that go out to the audience. And this piece of equipment we're using to record right now has about, you know, five switches and dials and is really very simple to work with. And we provide that to folks who are interested in doing it. So you put the call out to those who might be interested in sponsoring, John. I'd like to put the call out to anyone who might be interested in joining our team. We've got roughly four guest hosts and our executive producer. to build these shows and to give more content to the community as well as developing your own skills. It's a great opportunity. Thanks for asking that question, Don. I appreciate it.00:16:43 JOHN MCELLIGOTTYeah, welcome team. It's been a huge value added to the listeners. You bring a wealth of experience. You've seen a lot of this come together and see the place where civil affairs sits in different commands. So yeah, kudos for being on board and conducting so many fruitful interviews for the listeners.00:17:00 JACK GAINESReally appreciate it. It's really been a great experience for me. The people that I've met, networking, the career opportunities that it's opened, the perspectives that I've gained, the lessons I've learned, as well as managing my time and my family, it's just been super valuable.00:17:19 JOHN MCELLIGOTTLet me ask you a question about your favorite episodes. I'm going to mention some of the... episodes that I was part of because I'm most familiar with those.00:17:22 JACK GAINESgoing to mention some of the... episodes that I was part of because I'm most familiar with those. And I think that'd be stealing someone else's thunder if I talked about some of the ones that they recorded that are very different. I want to bring to everyone's attention as you're looking for material through the holidays. We did an interview with expeditionary pastor Doug Stevens. Within information -related capabilities, of course, you've got civil affairs and PSYOP and electronic warfare and information operations. You've got all of these things. Often undersold is the value of religious engagement. So for instance, when the Australian Navy goes to any port in the world, two weeks before that ship docks, they've sent their pastor forward. And he's there opening doors, talking to people, building relationships. So when that Australian ship comes into port, they've got a million friends and the red carpet's rolled out because of religious engagement. And when we look at some of our traditional structures, like the effects cells and the theater information advantage element or theater information advantage detachment and other MDO formation, they do not contain religious engagement. I think it's a gap in exercising influence across time, and you're not going to achieve conversions and information effects if we ignore religious engagement. He goes out, he goes to the worst of the worst areas. He talks about the explosions that were happening when he was recently in Kiev. the people he's supporting, the lives that he's saving. And they don't push on anyone, but they are there to help the men, the women, the children. And it was just very inspiring. I thought he brought a lot to the table in that episode. And that was episode 194, by the way. Episodes 183 and 184, I got to interview Megan O 'Keefe Schlesinger. fantastic, soft officer who has a functional area for information operations, but also a SAMS graduate and had done a utilization tour. So for those of you who wanted to learn about the School of Advanced Military Science or for the Marines, the School of Advanced Workpoint, she just laid it all out. Here are the various schools across the joint boards that you can apply to. Here's how you apply to them. Here's what those experiences are like. Here's what it can and can't do for your career. And here's what that means. She kind of demystified all of that. I thought it was wonderful. And she shared a lot of knowledge in that process. And then finally, I want to mention for civil affairs specific flavor, episode 148 and 149 with the legendary Colonel Tony Baja, who's recently retired, saw him on a conference call with General Goddard. By the way, he's going to be grading all of your one civil affairs issue papers. He started growing a beard. It's not too long yet, so he needs to redouble his effort on that. But, you know, he's done everything from being in the trenches, being in multiple war theaters, being in command, developing and writing doctrine, working at the proponency, building and executing new programs and technology. In every area that matters for civil affairs, he has a touch point and did some seminal work at the War College, too. And just to be able to reminisce with him over his many years of civil affairs and into his retirement. Fantastic. That was episode 148. Excellent.00:20:39 JOHN MCELLIGOTTKudos to Coronel Baja, by the way. We called him the godfather of the IMSG, the Institute for Military Support and Governance. Team,00:00:51 JOHN MCELLIGOTTKudos to Cornel Baja, by the way. We called him the godfather of the IMSG, the Institute for Military Support to Governance. So in the CE community, when we talk about the 38 Gulf MOS, he had a big hand in that, as did our current association president, Major General Retired, Ben Risen. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's great.00:01:12 BRIAN HANCOCKWe've had some unbelievable talent involved in the 38 Gulf program, which is maturing all the time. I'd be remiss. I didn't put it on my initial list because I only picked three. The work that Carl Bradford Hughes has done managing the functional specialty teams out in the 351 Civil Affairs Command, incredible missions they've done, the value that they've brought, the opportunities that they've identified, the innovation that they've driven. I think the 38 Golf Program is probably the best and most exciting thing that's happened to civil affairs in a good decade, and it's only beginning. It's only going to be even better off from here. So transitioning from my time, Jack, you come on as the executive producer, a career, not only public affairs officer with all of the skills, interpersonal, technical, et cetera, to make this show successful, take us to the next level. But also, not necessarily well -known, but one of the few folks who has built a new community for proactive public affairs. as opposed to reactive. Public affairs is probably our most powerful information -related capability because of its established infrastructure, access to senior leadership, immediate response authorities, ability to rapidly declassify imagery, debunk mis - and disinformation. But we have not really, at least in my opinion, fully exploited that capability. You're leading a community towards helping that in the work that you did. And the test of the theater information to manage element, of course, speaks to the power of that. It was unbelievable what public affairs was able to do at that joint warfighter assessment. And you also bring in new skills with artificial intelligence and the editing. I think you produced it now for about 30 hours, which was relatively laborious to roughly eight. Yes, this does take time still. How did you get involved? When did you decide to take the plunge and join the crazies that were on the 1CA team? How much money do I owe you for doing this? Give us a check later.00:03:15 JACK GAINESI don't always listen to 1CA podcasts, but when I do, I hear John McElligot saying, please take over. It's been four years. Oh, God. And I just happened to listen to an episode where you were saying, hey, I'm done. It's time to pass this on. And I don't know. I'm pretty open to new experiences. And public affairs in the civil affairs trade has always been my favorite key to public affairs because being a civil affairs officer and a public affairs officer allows me to go into the field, work with civil populations, and then broadcast it globally. And it's an enormous amount of power and authority and access for any soldier. So I'd love it because it allows me to campaign. You campaign in the public, campaign over the airwaves with mass media in order to achieve foreign policy goals. So having a podcast then allowed me to, in my mindset, call anybody. Yeah. Anybody. Hey, you know, President, come on this show. And then reach out to people who have specific skills or have done amazing things. And bring them on to talk, talk about some of the things they've done, their experiences, where their goals are, where they see the future. And then to take it and have those discussions and bring back those quality answers and visions has helped me to then better connect around the world with what's going on. So it's been a great experience. And I do miss John coming on and hosting a show even once in a while. So I'm glad you're here and at least pitching on the anniversary. But it was painful at first, the 30 hours of editing, because I'm a public affairs officer. I can't have stuttering. I can't have people doing you knows every third word. I can't do it. It makes me itch.00:05:07 BRIAN HANCOCKI can't00:05:09 JACK GAINESIt makes me itch when I hear other people's podcasts. We're glad you edit me,00:05:11 BRIAN HANCOCKglad you00:05:11 JACK GAINESedit me, so thank you.00:05:12 BRIAN HANCOCKso thank you.00:05:14 JACK GAINESWe all stutter. We all say you knows. It's just a part of the human condition.00:05:19 JOHN MCELLIGOTTSome of it's normal, but yeah, you get to focus on that when it just continues over and over. You need to cut it out.00:05:27 JACK GAINESYeah. And for people who want to come on and actually interview people, it teaches you better speaking skills because you realize as you're listening to yourself that you do the, the, the, the, the, the, it's a lot. And you start practicing skipping those pints and having moments of space in your breathing so that you can think before you speak. And that improves people's ability to listen and hear what you're saying. Because that's all the editing is for, is to cut out anything that distracts the listener from the message you're trying to say. That's the whole reason I do it. And I cut out tangents. I get right to the very nick of what they're trying to say, because I think that every voice that comes on here has something important that the rest of the group can hear. So I don't really have a favorite. I love all the shows that we've done. I think they're all impressive. I've tried to remaster the older ones. And what I've done is I've bought a series of AIs, one that does rough editing. It's called Clean Voice. And it does all of the stutters. It does the breathing noises. It does all the rough stuff so that I don't have to do that. And that's about eight hours of editing done digitally now. And then I've got another one, which is Adobe Podcast that does voice enhance. So it brings up the levels. It takes everyone's voice. And if it's tinny, cuts out the tinniness. If there's background noise, cuts it out. And then I've got a third one. It's from Isotope and it's called Automatic Assistant. And it's there. It gives me a little gauging on a person's voice. If they have too much reverb, I can reduce it or I can increase it. If they have mouth clicks, I can reduce or remove those mouth clips. And that takes those 30 hours down to eight. That's a week or a weekend of editing and I can get it posted and then people can hear it. which is important because sometimes we only have four or five days before the show will air. And I really like for the listeners to hear their voice, to make sure that what I included is true and it makes sense, and that they feel comfortable that it's going to go out because I believe that makes for a satisfied customer.00:07:33 BRIAN HANCOCKAnother nice thing, and it's a large contribution, in addition to all the editing that you're doing on the public affairs clearance. to make sure that we all stay on the right side of the military as we're presenting our ideas. That is very important. Not everyone has access to a public affairs officer, depending on what echelon they sit. The fact that you have also very kindly taken your personal time to do a lot of public affairs review for folks to make sure that we're in line with DOD policy guidance is a huge asset for us. It really is. I'd like to kind of close out our time. Just talking about some things we'd like to see the future for the podcast, where we want to take this to grow the franchise. Yeah, the talent that we've brought to the table and the quality of the guests are too. They're just incredible where we're going. John, as our founder and creator, if we could do a couple more things, in your opinion, should they be?00:08:34 JOHN MCELLIGOTTTwo come to mind. One is... How do we get more NCOs on the show? So any NCO listening or any officer listening, reach out to your team sergeants. Those NCOs who are on your teams or in the CAPT or wherever in these formations, you share their knowledge. Share an experience where they may have deployed, where they went on a training experience and learned some lessons and want to share that because there's so many more NCOs out there than officers. incredibly smart, especially in the civil affairs formations, Army and Marine Corps. And there are a lot of people who are not ready to write something. Even though we want the community to be this learning community, they're not prepared and don't want to or don't know how to write something. If that's the way you want to go, the Civil Affairs Association is also set up to help you. So the issue papers is one way. But if you want to write a paper and submit it to someplace else, in the DoD community or the interagency community, then you can do that. And there's a whole network of people ready to help you to improve your writing skills. But come on the show. What I love is, Jack, you are able to form questions in a conversation and highlight the guest, right? You're the host, you're guiding the conversation, but you're trying to put a spotlight on that guest. And it can be a comfortable conversation. You want to have some questions to lead, to guide it, but then it just becomes a normal conversation. And if you're in the civil affairs community, if you got here, you should be able to have a normal conversation with somebody. The second one is grabbing topics that are ripped from the headlines. So unfortunately, there are some things that continue for many, many months or years, the conflict in Ukraine, what's happening right now with Gaza and Israel and Hezbollah. There are individuals who are in think tanks. who get paid to write and to talk. There are a lot of people in the interagency who want to share their knowledge. And so we just need to call them. I mean, Jack, you talked about this. You now got in the seat. You have an excuse to call someone and send them an email. And a lot of people surprisingly will say yes. I think it just takes more of us listening to say, oh, that's something that I care about. Okay, if you're not the person who wants to reach out, send us a message and we can do it on your behalf.00:10:57 JACK GAINESRight. And what I really find exciting is when we find someone like Colonel Fidler, who was out there, was out there in Cyprus working on the Gaza relief mission and getting them on because we can always get a spokesperson or a talking points person or a representative, but to get someone who actually was knee deep in it, that is a CA person, and they come in here and they're tired and they're like, man, it was rough and this is what we found. It's so much more real. It's so much more pertinent.00:11:26 BRIAN HANCOCKmore pertinent. I'm Mary's source evidence. This is rough. This is what we found. But hey, this is what we learned. This is what we offer back to the community because this is going to happen again, right? And here's how we can feed more people. What an amazing mission.00:11:40 JACK GAINESRight. And I get calls from folks in the community going, hey, can I contact this person that you had on the show? And I'm like, sure. And I plug them in because one CA. It makes a difference across the community to get people connected and talking and helping each other out. It does.00:11:55 JOHN MCELLIGOTTSo there were some things that stood out to your question about what to see going forward, skills that would help CA practitioners or operators at the tactical and operational level. I know we need to grow that awareness and our skills at the operational strategic level, but most of the questions and comments that came into me were, oh my gosh, I listened to these episodes to prepare for qualification or my first job or my second job. And so going back to the archives was incredibly helpful for them. If there are additional skills that we can help to see around the bend and what's coming and prepare soldiers and Marines for what's going to come in the future, use this as a platform to educate the community.00:12:34 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd congratulations. Your search and due diligence paid off, and you're going to be now the deputy pullout here for United States Army, Africa, and Europe. That's your next assignment. It's super exciting and probably...00:12:49 BRIAN HANCOCKreach back to you for an episode to interview you at some point as you learn more about that. And also, John, I really appreciate what you mentioned about the value that NCOs bring the formation. When foreign officers come to look at the U .S. Army, what they really want to see is our NCO Corps, because it's been very difficult for other militaries to replicate the quality that our NCOs bring. And I think while we want to hear from all NCOs, I have personally a particular interest in hearing from some of the NCOs who have been in the 38 Gulf formations. I think we're still evolving what value -added role will be for non -commissioned officers in the 38 call pyramid, and love to hear what their thoughts are to help shape that, because the doctrine and toes are still being laid out for that. All the way to Jack, the last say on where we go in the future, but I'll add my two cents here. Something that I'd like to do more of, everything we do in the military that truly matters is joint mind. Marine Corps has civil affairs. The Department of the Navy closed its formal civil affairs program a little time ago, but it lives on in a sense through the Marine Corps, who are part of the Department of the Navy, are brothers in the ground combine element, and what the civil affairs groups are doing, and they also have civil affairs capabilities sitting in their meth information groups, is incredible. And we need to hear more of their stories. We have Ash Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez, his story, Plank Now, some of the things that he's done on the show. I encourage you to listen to that. We need more of that content. We need to, they have a fantastic schoolhouse out at Quantico. We need to get some of the folks involved in that curriculum development and what they're doing on the show. And we need more CIMIC, right, joint combined. We need more of that CIMIC piece to it here. That's something that I would like to see in the future. And another thing I'd like to see is more user -driven, requested content. I don't know if we have a forum for that, Jack, or we will in the future. But how would our 1CA podcast listeners request specific content that they are interested in, maybe for college in non -government organization support or relief efforts or other things? How could we take requests and then build a show to help fill the interest of our listeners? So those are two things that I'd like to see. Jack, over to you.00:15:10 JACK GAINESSure. A lot of people do email ideas. they send it over to the capodcasting at gmail .com, which is also on the show links and in the webpage. So that one works well. We get a lot of people asking questions. Usually I ask them who's the best person to talk about it, and then they set up the introduction, or they're like, I don't know, and I'm like, well, I guess you're it, and pull them in. So nothing like getting volunteered in or volunteering yourself accidentally. But one thing that with the SIMIC portion, I just finished the NATO CIMIC conference on the future of CIMIC, CIMIC forecasting at The Hague. It was great. Tons of smart, interesting people from throughout NATO and the world, actually. There was people from internationally there too. And what I found is that there's a real need for finding CA CIM in competition.00:15:59 JACK GAINESI found is that there's a real need for finding CA CIM in competition. Even though we're in it, we're fighting it every day and we're the golden children of competition and working with civil populations that are having agents from both sides coming in, trying to influence them. We're the ones on the ground, us and SOF, that are making the difference between that population shifting towards the Russians, the Chinese, or us. So I'll be pitching this year to set up a work group on competition. how we can work with our partner nations and our host nation to build up CIMIC that focuses on winning in competition. OSCE just wrote a paper called Contesting Russia. And the folks over in Vienna are throwing out everything old and they're rebuilding their programs based on that paper. And it's ramifications to the military. Because as you know, when you're working at the strategic level on civil affairs, you're... PAMISI is multinational organizations and government. So if you're looking for a political arm, you need someone like OSCE or you need the UN or you need the Hague or another organization that represents all the multiple governments in the world. For the economics, you need groups like OSCE, ASEAN, Africa Economic Forum. And those are the groups that you work with to pull into the individual nations that you're working with in order to bring the change that you want or the influence you want that builds growth, builds stability, shifts a population into the support of their own representative government and economy. So that is one that's very important to me. And actually that highlights another thing that this show does is it does advocate for civil affairs. It's a great thing because when people come on here and they talk about an issue or a solution, they're pitching it. They're advocating to the group and it builds a common voice, a common knowledge that helps CA, I think, become a sharper arrow in the quiver. That's something I see in the future is that defining the role in competition, which is why I'll be honest, I brought Patrick Alley on and I brought David Luna on because these people are fighting in. the corruption sphere, they're in the law enforcement sphere and in the political sphere. And by knowing these folks and having their words here and their connections to the group, it helps us as a community to be effective as we go downrange. That's been fantastic content.00:18:32 BRIAN HANCOCKWe've been in the militaries around the world, including NATO, have focused on crisis and conflict for a while. They're pretty good at that. Competition is new, even though we're 99 % of the time the military will be in competition. We don't have all the doctrine yet. There's a joint concept for competing, but all programs, plans, METs, measurements, strategies, they're undiscovered frontier. And the more energy we put into that, less actual fighting with loss of love and treasure. So it's amazing to see how our doctrine is evolving and what the inherent opportunities are. And Jack, thank you for jumping into that and helping buy some guidance and direction for us to build that content.00:19:12 JACK GAINESWell, and people are seeing it. If we lose in competition, we lose a country's orbit and we lose access, basing, cooperation, overflight, just like the car, but also countries like Georgia, where Russian agents went in and paid for the campaigns of pro -Russian politicians and also started degrading the ability to campaign by those who are pro -Western. And now the government has become a proxy and the population is protesting. But that's what winning in competition looks like for our adversaries. Our job to win in competition looks a lot like Colombia, where soft forces, CA, went in and worked with the government to create stability, to bring the FARC to the negotiation table so that they... stabilize that region to stop becoming such a violent, conflict -ridden area, especially for the populations. We do win. We have to highlight that we win. We need to learn those lessons, and we need to apply them everywhere else.00:20:16 BRIAN HANCOCKelse. Yeah. We had some awesome IAP programs, too, dealing with the FARC. Folks at the Able Postgraduate School Core Labs have done incredible social network analysis of the FARC, so we understand it's a very unusual organization. It has to be targeted differently. But these are things that we can do as enterprise. When we get all of our resources together and bend all aspects of national power towards achieving a positive result, more and more can be done. And as I hear you talking, Jack, I keep hearing in the back of my mind that Sun Tzu quote we all know, defeated generals go to war and then seek to win, while victorious generals win first and then go to war. I think the quote's actually in the reverse, but that's the point. It shows that you win in competition and then... The declaration of conflict and the resolution are effectively a fate accompli at them because you've already set the stage very effectively in competition. And I think as a joint combined force, there's more work for us to do there, and I'm excited to see that.00:21:16 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWell, gentlemen, it's clear listening to the two of you talk that, Ryan, as a guest host, it's amazing the experience you bring to the table and Jack has taken the helm of the show. perspective that you bring and the outside guests that you bring on the show. This is the right direction for the community. Congratulations for what you've done. People's Choice Award nominee. It's great to hear. Me too. I'm energized. I want to come back and guest host and bring some other guests on the show for you. Everyone listening, thank you so much. You probably don't hear this enough, but thank you for listening to the show for so many years. Please continue to support what Jack and Brian are doing. the Civil Affairs Association. If you're not yet a member, you got to join the thing. It's really cheap and you get a lot of information. In fact, I've always received more information from the association than I tend to get from my chain of command. I don't have all the time to think about what's happening on their side of the world. So I can just listen to an episode while I'm out for a run or driving my car or whatever, and I can learn about all the stuff you just mentioned. So thanks for doing it.00:22:20 BRIAN HANCOCKThank you everyone for joining us today. this episode of One Civil Affairs Podcast. We'll be back in full spring after the holidays are through, and I hope you take the opportunity to go through the index that Major Gaines has put together so during the holidays that you can listen to some of your favorite content.00:22:40 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Welcome to One CA Podcast.
As we go into the holidays, the One CA brings on the show's founder, John McElligott, to talk with Brian Hancock and Jack Gaines about the show's beginnings, current updates and goals for the future. So, stay tuned.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Past Episodes:
202 Andrew Gonzalez on Marine Civil Affairs in the Pacific (Part II) 201 Andrew Gonzalez on Marine Civil Affairs in the Pacific (Part I) 200 Jörg Grössl on the NATO Civil-Military Cooperation Centre of Excellence 199 Jeffrey Fiddler and the U.S. Gaza Relief Mission 198 David Luna, State-sponsored criminality in strategic competition 197 Scott Mann "Nobody is Coming to Save You" 196 Jeffrey Fiddler on the DOD response to COVID 19 195 Cleo Paskal on PRC operations in Guam 194 Doug Stevens on faith-based diplomacy 193 Patrick Alley on Global Influence (Part II) 192 Patrick Alley on Global Influence (Part I) 191 Drew Biemer on Energy Sector Civil Affairs 190 Pavlo Kuktha on Ukraine Reconstruction 189 Phillip Smith in discussion with Brian Hancock 188 Part II, Mickey Bergman on Diplomacy in the Shadows 187 Part I, Mickey Bergman on Diplomacy in the Shadows 186 Major Gustavo Ferreira testifies at the U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission. 185 Scott Mann, Life After Afghanistan 184 Megan O’Keefe-Schlesinger on Information Operations. Part II. 183 Megan O’Keefe-Schlesinger. Leading Information Operations and Influence. Part I 182 Natacha Ciezki, from Zaire to America 181 Proxy Wars, by Pawel Bernat, Juneyt Gurer, and Cyprian Kozera 180 Sandor Fabian: Europe is Learning the wrong lessons from the conflict in Ukraine 179 Civil Affairs Innovation with Colonel Brad Hughes, part II 178 Civil Affairs Innovation with Colonel Brad Hughes, part I 177 Patrick Passewitz on the Sicilian Model 176 Part II, interview with J. David Thompson 175 Part I interview with J. David Thompson 174 Direct Commissions with Heater Cotter 173 Achieving post conflict stabilization with Prof. Beatrice Heuser (Pt.2) 172 Achieving post conflict stabilization with Prof. Beatrice Heuser (Pt.1) 171 Civil Military What? 170 Combat First Aid in Ukraine by Michael Baker 169 Part II, Bas Wouters on Influence and Persuasion 168 Part I, Bas Wouters on Influence and Persuasion 167 Electronic Warfare with Michael Gudmundson 166 On Alexei Navalny and Political Dissent 165 Part II of the Courtney Mulhern and Dan Joseph interview 164 Part I, Courtney Mulhern and Dan Joseph on the book "Backpack to Rucksack" 163 Sam Cooper on China political and Economic Warfare 162 Rob Boudreau and Joel Searls 161 Curtis Fox, Part II on Russian Hybrid Warfare 160 Curtis Fox: Part I, Russian Hybrid Warfare 159 Albert Augustine and V Corps CA 158 Introducing the 1st CAG Human Dimension Podcast 157 Part II Robert Curris on Psychological Operations integration with CA and SOF 156 Part I, Robert Curris on Psychological Operations integration with CA and SOF 155 Gen (R) David Petraeus at Carnegie 154 Angie Smith, Environmental Science and Foreign Policy 153 One CA Classic. John visits AUSA 152 Dan Blumenthal and Fred Kagan 151 Dan Blumenthal and Fred Kagan 150 The WestPoint Center for the Study of Civil-Military Operations 149 Part II. Tony Vacha on Civil Affairs in Europe and Africa 148 Part I.Tony Vacha on Civil Affairs in Europe and Africa 147 Jack’s first year hosting the One CA Podcast 146 Jess Langerud talks on medical diplomacy in Poland 145 Courtney Mulhern. Three tools to improve local public outreach 144 Garric Banfield on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade 143 Richard Messick. Advising partner nations on Rule of Law and anti-corruption 142 Scott DeJesse and the new Monuments Men and Women 141 Paul Hutchinson on the film ”Sound of Freedom” and human trafficking 140 Brian Hancock interview Col. Rachael Sherrer discuss Army Europe and Africa 139 John Cassara on China’s Criminal Economy 138 Part II. Joseph Long on relational leadership and military diplomacy 137 Part I. Joseph Long on relational leadership and military diplomacy 136 Joe Pastorek and the 95th CA Advanced Skills Detachment 135 Jack Gaines interview with Global Integrity 134 Calvin Chrustie on conflict and hostage negotiation 133 Part II: Afghan resettlement in the U.S. 132 Part I: Afghan resettlement in the U.S. 131 Climate and Security 130 Chris Hyslop on human rights and diplomacy 129 Special Episode: Digital Civil Reconnaissance with Carrick Longley and Stephen Hunnewell 128 128 Josh Bedingfield on Shadow Governments Part II 127 Josh Bedingfield on Shadow Governments, Part I 126 Juan Quiroz on CA leading in Competition 125 Chris Hyslop: The Peace Corps 124 Special episode. Jordan Harbinger interviews H.R. McMaster on his book ”Battlegrounds” 123 Part II 38G: Agriculture and foreign policy 122 Part I 38G: Agriculture and foreign policy 121 Korea Reunification by David Maxwell 120 Special episode. IWP: The Columbia Plan 119 Discussing the USMC, 31st MEU CA Marines 118 Part II. Integrating Civil Affairs, field operations and diplomacy, by former Under-Secretary, Michael Patrick Mulroy 117 Part I. former DASD, Michael Patrick Mulroy on Integrating Civil Affairs, field operations and diplomacy 116 Assad Raza talk-back on the Frank Sobchak interview 115 Frank Sobchak on advising and training partner nation forces 114 Special Episode from the IW Podcast: Slow Burn: How Security Cooperation shapes operational environments 113 Jodi Harman and the HillVets Foundation 112 David Maxwell on grand strategy 111 Civil Affairs and Security Cooperation with Chris Stockel 110 CSM Riccio Christmas Day Concert 109 John Hutcheson on Hiring our Heroes 108 Advertisement for the CSM Riccio holiday concert 107 Operation Joint Endeavor 106 Special episode: John McElligott passes the mic 105 Major John Burns on Ghost Team at NTC 104 Stanislava Mladenova on Civ-Mil Relationships in Low-Intensity Conflict and State Fragility 103 Benjamin Ordiway and Anthony Pfaff 102 Nick Krohley and Lt Col Stefan Muehlich on Doctrinal Comparison, Part 2 101 Nick Krohley and Lt Col Stefan Muehlich on Doctrinal Comparison, Part 1 100 Episode 100 of the One CA Podcast 99 Theater Information Advantage Element98 Brig Gen Chris Dziubek of the 351st CACOM 97 Mark Delaney on Civil Affairs Skills for Post Military Life 96 Colonel Marco Bongioanni on Emergency Preparedness Liaison Officers 95 Maj Gen Jeff Coggin of USACAPOC(A) 94 Operation Allies Refuge: Lessons on Interagency and Multinational Collaboration 93 Vish Odedra on COVID-19 Vaccinations in the UK 92 LTC Greg Banner on Training for Unconventional Warfare 91 Chris Bryant on Social Media for CA 90 CA Issue Papers 2021 - Part 3 89 CA Issue Papers 2021 - Part 2 88 CA Issue Papers 2021 - Part 1 87 USACAPOC(A) Command Strategic Initiatives 86 Civil Affairs Interagency Panel - Part 2 85 Civil Affairs Interagency Panel - Part 1 84 Zach Hyleman and Kevin Chapla on FAO and CA 83 Civil Affairs in Regional Competition for Influence - Part 2 82 Civil Affairs in Regional Competition for Influence - Part 1 81 SFC Josh Spiers on San Pedro Sula, Honduras 80 Major Lauren Holl on San Pedro Sula, Honduras 79 Josh Bedingfield on Human Network Analysis 78 Lieutenant General Eric Wesley on Civil Competition - Part 2 77 Lieutenant General Eric Wesley on Civil Competition - Part 1 76 Maj Gen Hugh Van Roosen on a Career in SF, CA, and PSYOP 75 Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Coggin of USACAPOC(A) 74 Colonel Mattia Zuzzi of the Multinational CIMIC Group 73 Jonathan Papoulidis on Country Coordination Platforms 72 Colonel Frank van Boxmeer of NATO CCOE 71 LTC Matthias Wasinger of the Austrian Armed Forces 70 Request for Capabilities Brief Guests and Show Hosts 69 Lt Col Jahn Olson and Lt Col Korvin Kraics on III Marine Expeditionary Force 68 LTC Albert Augustine on CA Missions in Africa 67 Justin Constantine 66 John Steed of Tesla Government on GIS 65 65 Digital Civil Reconnaissance with Carrick Longley and Stephen Hunnewell 64 Joe Pastorek on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade's Advanced Skills Detachment 63 Lauren Ladenson, Lieutenant Colonel Matt Holmes, and Lieutenant Colonel Kyle Kouri on Defense Support to Stabilization (DSS) 62 CPT Al Oh and SGM Chris Melendez discuss Civil Reconnaissance 61 Dr. E. Casey Wardynski, ASA (M&RA) on Talent Management 60 LTC Scott Dickerson on the Army CA Force Modernization Assessment 59 MAJ Ashley Holzmann on the History of US Propaganda and Psychological Operations 58 Doowan Lee on Innovating Influence Intelligence 57 LTC Marco Bongioanni on the International Visitor Leadership Program 56 Paul Giannone on CA in Vietnam and his Career in Public Health 55 LTC Jeff Uherka and COL Steve Barry of Joint Task Force - Bravo 54 John Barsa, Acting Administrator of USAID 53 Dr. Ajit Maan - Narrative Warfare 52 Karen Walsh and Bron Morrison of Dexis Consulting 51 Intergrating Civil Affairs, with MAJ Brian Hancock and Dr. Timothy Darr 50 COL Steve Battle on CA Support for the COVID-19 Outbreak in Korea 49 LTC Rachel Sullivan and MAJ Mike Karlson on CA during the COVID-19 Pandemic in Korea 48 Dr. Lynn Copeland on the Future of Civil Information Management 47 Letting the CAT out of the Bag Part 2 46 Letting the CAT out of the Bag, Part 1 45 MAJ Ian Duke on the need for a Civil Knowledge Battalion 44 MAJ James Ontiveros discusses Civil Affairs and Megacities 43 Captains Chapla, Micciche, and Staron on Storyboards as the TPS Reports of the Army 42 LTC Sue Gannon on Leading the 450th CA Battalion 41 Sean McFate on the New Rules of War, Part 2 40 Sean McFate on the New Rules of War, Part 1 39 Abubakr Elnoor on Darfur and Terrorist Recruitment 38 Devin Conley on the National Training Center 37 General Anthony Zinni on a Unified, Interagency Command 36 Garric Banfield on the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade 35 Justin Richmond on the Impl. Project 34 Alexandra Lamarche on Internally Displaced People in Cameroon 33 Jamie Schwandt on Swarm Intelligence, Swarm Learning, and Red Teams 32 Jay Liddick and Scott Dickerson on the CA Force Modernization Assessment 31 Narayan Khadka on Nepal, castes, and community trauma 30 Jay Liddick and Scott Dickerson on CA in Large Scale Combat Operations 29 Giancarlo Newsome and Jesse Elmore on Military Government Specialists 28 Nicholas Krohley on Human Terrain and CA Integration 27 Dale Yeager with Travel Safety Tips 26 Cori Wegener on Cultural Heritage Preservation 25 Major General Darrell Guthrie of USACAPOC(A) 24 Kwadjo Owusu-Sarfo on Ghana and Boko Haram 23 Manya Dotson on Life in the NGO Community 22 Wyatt Hughes Trains the Central Readiness Force of Japan 21 Bonus episode with Ryan McCannell of USAID 20 Ryan McCannell of USAID on the Evolution of CA in Sub-Saharan African 19 Arnel David on Strategy in the 21st Century 18 Michael Coates and Mark Grimes, Startup Radio Network 17 Max Steiner and Mazi Markel, CA Issue Paper 16 Diana Parzik, USAID Office of Civilian-Military Cooperation 15 Will Ibrahim, S-9 of 2/1 CAV 14 What is Civil Affairs - AUSA Answers 13 Scott Fisher and Information Operations 12 Aleks Nesic and James Patrick Christian of Valka-Mir 11 Norm Cotton of the Institute for Defense Analyses 10 Kevin Melton, USAID Office of Transition Initiatives 9 Dr. Larry Hufford discusses the 20th Anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland 8 Valor Breez and Jarrett Redman on "Beyond Hearts and Minds" 7 John Stefula and PKSOI 6 Michael Schwille, Iraq and Djibouti and RAND 5 Gonul Tol, Middle East Institute, on Turkey 4 Roberto Carmack, PhD, on Russian actions 3 Sean Acosta, Instructor, USAJFKSWCS 2 Valerie Jackson, 4th CA Group, USMC 1 Jon May: Artificial Intelligence for HA/DR Operations - LORELEI
---
Special thanks to Cool Jazz Hot Bassa for sampling music in their
album, Energy Jazz Playlist.
Retrieved at: https://youtu.be/bdWUj2NYDYQ?si=00ylFfJ6DhGCwPsO
---
Transcript
00:00:03 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:40 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWelcome to the 1CA podcast. I'm John McElligott, Major of the U .S. Army Reserve, and I will be your host for today's session. 00:00:47 JACK GAINESThis is Jack Gaines,and I will also be your host for this session.
BRIAN HANCOCK
I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I too will be your host for this session. Today, on the anniversary of One Civil Affairs Podcast, we have brought three hosts together to discuss where One CA Podcast has been, where we are today, and where we plan to take the show in the future. By happenstance, we're all here and here on the anniversary of One Civil Affairs Podcast. I think it's fate that we celebrate the organization and the listeners who have made One CA what it is today. Quick disclaimer before we continue. A reminder to the audience that all remarks are solely those of the presenters and do not necessarily represent the views of the United States Army or the Department of Defense. Let's start at the beginning. God, founder of 1CA Podcasts, executive extraordinaire of muckety -muck, running your business on a civil affairs board, and you come up, I guess, with this crazy idea to start 1CA Podcasts. How did that happen? Why don't you tell us a little bit about the origins of this incredible show?00:01:55 JOHN MCELLIGOTTI'd be glad to. So I think some of this blame probably goes back to you too. Uh -oh. So we were training together. We were going through the civil affairs qualification course, the reserve component, several years ago. And this was at a time when we had a team combined with active component and reserve component soldiers and actually soldiers from other countries. And I think that was the first time... that I had really felt this connection with the active component being reservist my whole time. And it was valuable. And so I wondered to myself, as we had a bunch of downtime waiting for the next missions, I had this thought, how do we keep this alive? And podcasting really started to grow nationally, internationally. I thought, wow, maybe I could do this. Can we get people on a show where the bar hopefully for entry is low enough? just to talk about stuff. Now, the goal for myself was, yes, to connect each other so that we can keep that discussion alive. I think the selfish goal for me was to learn. I wanted to bring people on so that I could know more about the civil affairs regiment, branch, et cetera, the whole environment, so that people could come to me and I can ask them questions in a simple format and then quickly learn.00:03:13 BRIAN HANCOCK
That's awesome. Studies show that when people ask questions of others, the perception is that the person asking the question is more intelligent or more knowledgeable. The reality is, I know when I'm asking questions of our guests, and I suspect from what you said that the experience is similar for you, we are in receive mode. I mean, we're just learning amazing things from amazing people all the time. That is wonderful.00:03:37 JOHN MCELLIGOTTI need to hear from other people. And the other point of this was... understanding the value of the balance between officers and NCOs. And so there's Sergeant Sarah Kelly at the time who helped me to launch some of this idea to let that grow. And the thought early on was to have this balance between NCOs and officers. Now, historically, I think most of the guests we've had and the hosts we've had tend to be officers with some NCOs, some really standouts. But hopefully that's something we'll get to later on is How do we get more NCOs involved? Because the wealth of knowledge they bring to the table.00:04:12 BRIAN HANCOCK
Well said on that. And actually, Sergeant Kelly, she interviewed me way back when. I think that was Rim of the Pacific where we made up some new processes for measuring progressing planetary assistance disaster relief. That was a fun episode. She did a really good job. So, yeah, I agree. We definitely need more NCOs, especially of that caliber, to come on and help with the show. Now,00:04:18 JOHN MCELLIGOTTof the Pacific00:04:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
you told us a little bit about bringing her on board. What was it like running the show back then? I mean, there was extensive video editing. Our equipment wasn't as modern. What was that experience like from a technical and academic point of view?00:04:49 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWell, gladly we had Zoom and we had ways to dial in Skype and so on, but smartphones helped out a great deal. But yeah, it's not like today. So Jack will hopefully cover artificial intelligence and programs that you're using right now to make this easier, a little bit easier. He's taking it to the next level. So some conversations were simply a recorder with batteries placed next to my phone to record a conversation. Some of them were just really winging it with a lot of editing that was required. And my dog barking. Yeah, that's the moment. That's the moment, right? Or the worst is when someone is blowing leaves. Or they've got work going on outside that you have no control over.00:05:33 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, that's why we have these roll -it -ins here and here. If we just close them down and they do what they don't do,00:05:36 JOHN MCELLIGOTTwhat they don't do, we're good. So, yeah, we've made huge strides over the years, in large part to what Jack has brought to the table on the quality of what you guys do.00:05:44 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, well said. And it sounds like we have a long history of mascots, starting with the dog, for 1CA podcast. Now we have Jabba the Cat as our current mascot. There are costs associated with doing this. This isn't free. The Civil Affairs Association is not profitable. And one of the ways that you creatively sought to close that funding gap and sought sponsors for the shows. And to this day, we often hear some of those sponsors that you brought on board, helping with the show, helping us defray the cost. How did you do that?00:06:15 JOHN MCELLIGOTTYeah, so we wanted this to be cost neutral as much as possible. I think for the production costs, we were the pitch to the Civil Affairs Association at the time was. If we can bring on sponsors at a decent rate, then we can cover those production costs and keep this cost neutral.00:06:32 BRIAN HANCOCK
Jack, get right on that, on our bottom line to be tripled in the next six months. Right.00:06:36 BRIAN HANCOCKSure. I would love that. But right now we're doing just like YouTubers where the YouTube inserts an advertisement and sends you, you know,00:06:37 JACK GAINESwould love that.00:06:44 BRIAN HANCOCKand sends you, you know, 11 cents for the first billion downloads. Exactly. All right. Yeah.00:06:49 JACK GAINESAll right. Yeah.00:06:50 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWorking on the first billion. Yeah. We have to monetize this,00:06:52 BRIAN HANCOCK
We have to monetize this, guys. Let's keep that up. All right, John. So yeah,00:06:55 JOHN MCELLIGOTTAll right, John. So yeah, but it's not a big, civil affairs is not a big industry for companies doing products and services. I don't know if we'll ever get there, but there is a short list of companies who want to advertise to this community. So those are the ones that we reached out to and we were successful in getting a few. So if you're a company out there, if you want to market to anyone listening to this show, please contact Jack, contact the team, and we can get an episode together for you.00:07:24 BRIAN HANCOCK
And I know we can support that. We have some very interesting demographics that we get that are not common in my experience. You did this for four years. Wow, right? And you have the great hand to prove it. Yeah. It doesn't make me feel so bad and so old. But what were some of your favorite episodes in that time that you recorded?00:07:35 JOHN MCELLIGOTTyou have the great hand to prove it. Yeah.00:07:41 JACK GAINESwere some of your favorite episodes in that time that you recorded? And again, give the numbers because we have a running number. And I think, Jack, I don't know if you'll link the master list with all the... Look at that already. Oh, it's linked. Yeah, the numbers on the link in front of you is you guys correlated with the actual show. Go ahead.00:07:55 BRIAN HANCOCKthe numbers on the link in front of you is you guys correlated with the actual show. Go ahead.00:07:58 BRIAN HANCOCK
guys correlated with the actual show. Go ahead. Give us some of your favorite ones so people can look these up and relive the glory.00:08:04 JOHN MCELLIGOTTSo I think there are three that come to mind. You guys have to help me out with the numbers here, but I think General Zinni, General Anthony Zinni from the U .S. Marine Corps, that interview was fantastic. Such a deep wealth of experience that he brought to the table. And that was just sitting at my kitchen table, talking to him and going through the network of the Civil Affairs Association to get him on the line. And I think because he spoke at one of the association meetings six months prior or whatever.00:08:37 BRIAN HANCOCKThat was episode 37? 37.00:08:38 JOHN MCELLIGOTT37. Thank you. There we are.00:08:40 JACK GAINESYeah, that is an early episode. We're at what, 200 and something?00:08:44 JOHN MCELLIGOTTYeah. Well, to put that into context, by the way, after four years, I think I... I worked down 106, 107 until turning over to Jack. Right, and then now we're at episode 200 over a much shorter period.00:08:54 BRIAN HANCOCKa much shorter period. Right, but we've also changed our pace. We're doing one every two weeks. We're doing one weekly, but we're actually only adding one additional show. We're splitting long -form interview in half so that we're adding one show, but we're hitting it weekly to fill in the time. That's awesome. Yeah.00:09:14 JOHN MCELLIGOTTThat's awesome. To your question, the other two that stood out to me were the interview, I think it was two parts, with Shomnik Fate talking about the new rules of war. Yeah. What a smart guy. And I think that was really fascinating to bring his insight, somebody who's basically an academic teaching at the War College. Not just an academic.00:09:37 JACK GAINESjust an academic. I mean, he served in special operations. He served as a mercenary. He has every type of experience on the government side, on the private side, on the secret squirrel side doing this. So that ability to have all those different perspectives, you know, as kind of an integrator to look at what that big picture is and could be. That's a book that he wrote, New Rules of War, Victory in the Age of Durable Disorder. referred to me by a Marine Corps infantry officer, probably the best military book I had written about that.00:10:17 JACK GAINESNice. Yeah. And a name like McFate. Isn't it? While running around in the shadows. Yeah. It's just brilliant.00:10:22 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. It's just brilliant. It's just built for you. Yeah. Oh, that was episode 40 and 41, by the way. So that was a good run. Yeah, that was really close to when you had General Zinni.00:10:28 JOHN MCELLIGOTTthe way. So that was a good run. Yeah, that was really close to when you had General Zinni.00:10:33 BRIAN HANCOCKWell done. Oh my God.00:10:33 JOHN MCELLIGOTTdone. Oh my God. So let me continue on this Marine Corps piece. I think she was then Colonel Valerie Jackson. Now I think she's Brigadier General. So the Marine Corps perspective on civil affairs was great for me as an Army guy to hear. The last one I'll talk about is... That was episode number two. Number two. You were hitting a hard back then.00:10:55 BRIAN HANCOCKa hard back then.00:10:57 JOHN MCELLIGOTTDigital Civil Reconnaissance with Carrick Longley and Steve Huntawell. Talking about their perspective and what their company at the time was analyzing. in the civil domain and how we as civil affairs soldiers and Marines can conduct a lot of our work remotely, prep us and the commands that we support. So yeah, great tools and just the process that I think going back to that episode, we can still use today.00:11:26 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, that was episode 129. That was the last one we broadcast of your time as the lead host and showrunner. Nice.00:11:35 JACK GAINESHeard us strong, finish strong. The digital state of reconnaissance, I know that when General Zubek retired from 351, was over in Korea as the G9, they had pioneered as their information systems, different languages and different technologies, platforms, very complex. So they actually pioneered a concept. And I think there's still a paper that we might be able to link to, if I can look it up. on digital civil reconnaissance because the concept is still valid of on reserve battle assemblies, area -aligned civil affairs units and develop some of the civil picture that's needed for real -world operations in pieces over those battle assemblies and then send it forward as kind of a longer -term reachback, not a fast RFI process, but a longer -term development process to support the folks who are actually doing this operation, which is really an idea. Right. So, and that's still alive. I know some of the organizations who have been involved may not be doing it anymore, but the philosophy, the concept, and some of the actors are certainly still doing that. Well, Brian, you just recently had Andrew Gonzalez on. Yeah. He was talking about CKI TAC, which is something that has potential for more than just the Marine Corps and wider partnerships. This concept of developing civil picture, I'm not going to say cop, I think is a loaded term, but developing a civil picture that will enable maneuver is a very complicated topic. It requires a lot of information from a lot of players across the AC, right? And we haven't had a fantastic way to collect, collate, analyze, and display that. But TKI TAC... may be a piece of that puzzle. And, you know, I'm excited to see when it comes out what we do with that. So thanks for bringing it up, Jack. Appreciate it. Well,00:13:29 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWell, gentlemen, I'd say enough about where it started. I want to turn this over to Lieutenant Colonel Hancock, Brian Hancock. At the time we were, you were captain. I think I was first lieutenant when we met. Right. How I twisted your arm to get involved with all the shenanigans with the 1CA podcast and how you got started, how it's gone so far and what you've learned.00:13:52 JACK GAINESTo be honest with you, John, after you did four years, I just felt sorry for a year, so I felt I had to jump in as my battle brother from Saundry.00:13:57 BRIAN HANCOCKas my00:13:59 JACK GAINESNo, no, that's not it. Actually, I have a far more diplomatic series of answers to give you, starting with the fact that my technical skills were becoming a little bit outdated. You mentioned how I graded from tape recordings and basic microphones to now. digital capabilities i know jack will talk more about this all the way through ai and programming and things like that and i had very similar experience to what you did in terms of when i was doing tactical work but now here we are with digital recordings podcasts ais and things like that and i recognize hey i need to get back into this if you want to be influence operations you have to understand a little bit about how to actually do that right you need to pony up at some point so there was an opportunity for me there and You know, I'm a little bit older than both of you gentlemen, and so I'm kind of at that point where I feel like I have to not only share anything I've learned with the community before my time is up, but also find people who have a lot to share and great knowledge who may not have been necessarily extensively published in other formats, right, to help preserve that intellectual property that the larger diplomatic community, including civil affairs, has developed over time. So that was kind of a foundation -type exciting project to collate some of that knowledge. And then, of course, the people involved, right? The journey matters. And who wouldn't want to work with Major John McElligot, Major Jack Gates? You guys are amazing, true professionals, fantastic, fun to be around, and really made this experience amazing for me. So I jumped on for all of those reasons. I would encourage others who are interested in doing it. It's not that hard. I know there are times. The biggest time sink in my experience is sound editing, which we don't really have to do so much anymore as guest hosts. Jack, you'll be talking more about some of the capabilities that you have to do that. But as the executive producer, you've managed a lot of that and given me the freedom to just go find amazing people with amazing stories to share. Throw on the recording. It's not live, so it's easy to do in as many retakes as you want. And then you turn it into these amazing shows that go out to the audience. And this piece of equipment we're using to record right now has about, you know, five switches and dials and is really very simple to work with. And we provide that to folks who are interested in doing it. So you put the call out to those who might be interested in sponsoring, John. I'd like to put the call out to anyone who might be interested in joining our team. We've got roughly four guest hosts and our executive producer. to build these shows and to give more content to the community as well as developing your own skills. It's a great opportunity. Thanks for asking that question, Don. I appreciate it.00:16:43 JOHN MCELLIGOTTYeah, welcome team. It's been a huge value added to the listeners. You bring a wealth of experience. You've seen a lot of this come together and see the place where civil affairs sits in different commands. So yeah, kudos for being on board and conducting so many fruitful interviews for the listeners.00:17:00 JACK GAINESReally appreciate it. It's really been a great experience for me. The people that I've met, networking, the career opportunities that it's opened, the perspectives that I've gained, the lessons I've learned, as well as managing my time and my family, it's just been super valuable.00:17:19 JOHN MCELLIGOTTLet me ask you a question about your favorite episodes. I'm going to mention some of the... episodes that I was part of because I'm most familiar with those.00:17:22 JACK GAINESgoing to mention some of the... episodes that I was part of because I'm most familiar with those. And I think that'd be stealing someone else's thunder if I talked about some of the ones that they recorded that are very different. I want to bring to everyone's attention as you're looking for material through the holidays. We did an interview with expeditionary pastor Doug Stevens. Within information -related capabilities, of course, you've got civil affairs and PSYOP and electronic warfare and information operations. You've got all of these things. Often undersold is the value of religious engagement. So for instance, when the Australian Navy goes to any port in the world, two weeks before that ship docks, they've sent their pastor forward. And he's there opening doors, talking to people, building relationships. So when that Australian ship comes into port, they've got a million friends and the red carpet's rolled out because of religious engagement. And when we look at some of our traditional structures, like the effects cells and the theater information advantage element or theater information advantage detachment and other MDO formation, they do not contain religious engagement. I think it's a gap in exercising influence across time, and you're not going to achieve conversions and information effects if we ignore religious engagement. He goes out, he goes to the worst of the worst areas. He talks about the explosions that were happening when he was recently in Kiev. the people he's supporting, the lives that he's saving. And they don't push on anyone, but they are there to help the men, the women, the children. And it was just very inspiring. I thought he brought a lot to the table in that episode. And that was episode 194, by the way. Episodes 183 and 184, I got to interview Megan O 'Keefe Schlesinger. fantastic, soft officer who has a functional area for information operations, but also a SAMS graduate and had done a utilization tour. So for those of you who wanted to learn about the School of Advanced Military Science or for the Marines, the School of Advanced Workpoint, she just laid it all out. Here are the various schools across the joint boards that you can apply to. Here's how you apply to them. Here's what those experiences are like. Here's what it can and can't do for your career. And here's what that means. She kind of demystified all of that. I thought it was wonderful. And she shared a lot of knowledge in that process. And then finally, I want to mention for civil affairs specific flavor, episode 148 and 149 with the legendary Colonel Tony Baja, who's recently retired, saw him on a conference call with General Goddard. By the way, he's going to be grading all of your one civil affairs issue papers. He started growing a beard. It's not too long yet, so he needs to redouble his effort on that. But, you know, he's done everything from being in the trenches, being in multiple war theaters, being in command, developing and writing doctrine, working at the proponency, building and executing new programs and technology. In every area that matters for civil affairs, he has a touch point and did some seminal work at the War College, too. And just to be able to reminisce with him over his many years of civil affairs and into his retirement. Fantastic. That was episode 148. Excellent.00:20:39 JOHN MCELLIGOTTKudos to Coronel Baja, by the way. We called him the godfather of the IMSG, the Institute for Military Support and Governance. Team,00:00:51 JOHN MCELLIGOTTKudos to Cornel Baja, by the way. We called him the godfather of the IMSG, the Institute for Military Support to Governance. So in the CE community, when we talk about the 38 Gulf MOS, he had a big hand in that, as did our current association president, Major General Retired, Ben Risen. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's great.00:01:12 BRIAN HANCOCKWe've had some unbelievable talent involved in the 38 Gulf program, which is maturing all the time. I'd be remiss. I didn't put it on my initial list because I only picked three. The work that Carl Bradford Hughes has done managing the functional specialty teams out in the 351 Civil Affairs Command, incredible missions they've done, the value that they've brought, the opportunities that they've identified, the innovation that they've driven. I think the 38 Golf Program is probably the best and most exciting thing that's happened to civil affairs in a good decade, and it's only beginning. It's only going to be even better off from here. So transitioning from my time, Jack, you come on as the executive producer, a career, not only public affairs officer with all of the skills, interpersonal, technical, et cetera, to make this show successful, take us to the next level. But also, not necessarily well -known, but one of the few folks who has built a new community for proactive public affairs. as opposed to reactive. Public affairs is probably our most powerful information -related capability because of its established infrastructure, access to senior leadership, immediate response authorities, ability to rapidly declassify imagery, debunk mis - and disinformation. But we have not really, at least in my opinion, fully exploited that capability. You're leading a community towards helping that in the work that you did. And the test of the theater information to manage element, of course, speaks to the power of that. It was unbelievable what public affairs was able to do at that joint warfighter assessment. And you also bring in new skills with artificial intelligence and the editing. I think you produced it now for about 30 hours, which was relatively laborious to roughly eight. Yes, this does take time still. How did you get involved? When did you decide to take the plunge and join the crazies that were on the 1CA team? How much money do I owe you for doing this? Give us a check later.00:03:15 JACK GAINESI don't always listen to 1CA podcasts, but when I do, I hear John McElligot saying, please take over. It's been four years. Oh, God. And I just happened to listen to an episode where you were saying, hey, I'm done. It's time to pass this on. And I don't know. I'm pretty open to new experiences. And public affairs in the civil affairs trade has always been my favorite key to public affairs because being a civil affairs officer and a public affairs officer allows me to go into the field, work with civil populations, and then broadcast it globally. And it's an enormous amount of power and authority and access for any soldier. So I'd love it because it allows me to campaign. You campaign in the public, campaign over the airwaves with mass media in order to achieve foreign policy goals. So having a podcast then allowed me to, in my mindset, call anybody. Yeah. Anybody. Hey, you know, President, come on this show. And then reach out to people who have specific skills or have done amazing things. And bring them on to talk, talk about some of the things they've done, their experiences, where their goals are, where they see the future. And then to take it and have those discussions and bring back those quality answers and visions has helped me to then better connect around the world with what's going on. So it's been a great experience. And I do miss John coming on and hosting a show even once in a while. So I'm glad you're here and at least pitching on the anniversary. But it was painful at first, the 30 hours of editing, because I'm a public affairs officer. I can't have stuttering. I can't have people doing you knows every third word. I can't do it. It makes me itch.00:05:07 BRIAN HANCOCKI can't00:05:09 JACK GAINESIt makes me itch when I hear other people's podcasts. We're glad you edit me,00:05:11 BRIAN HANCOCKglad you00:05:11 JACK GAINESedit me, so thank you.00:05:12 BRIAN HANCOCKso thank you.00:05:14 JACK GAINESWe all stutter. We all say you knows. It's just a part of the human condition.00:05:19 JOHN MCELLIGOTTSome of it's normal, but yeah, you get to focus on that when it just continues over and over. You need to cut it out.00:05:27 JACK GAINESYeah. And for people who want to come on and actually interview people, it teaches you better speaking skills because you realize as you're listening to yourself that you do the, the, the, the, the, the, it's a lot. And you start practicing skipping those pints and having moments of space in your breathing so that you can think before you speak. And that improves people's ability to listen and hear what you're saying. Because that's all the editing is for, is to cut out anything that distracts the listener from the message you're trying to say. That's the whole reason I do it. And I cut out tangents. I get right to the very nick of what they're trying to say, because I think that every voice that comes on here has something important that the rest of the group can hear. So I don't really have a favorite. I love all the shows that we've done. I think they're all impressive. I've tried to remaster the older ones. And what I've done is I've bought a series of AIs, one that does rough editing. It's called Clean Voice. And it does all of the stutters. It does the breathing noises. It does all the rough stuff so that I don't have to do that. And that's about eight hours of editing done digitally now. And then I've got another one, which is Adobe Podcast that does voice enhance. So it brings up the levels. It takes everyone's voice. And if it's tinny, cuts out the tinniness. If there's background noise, cuts it out. And then I've got a third one. It's from Isotope and it's called Automatic Assistant. And it's there. It gives me a little gauging on a person's voice. If they have too much reverb, I can reduce it or I can increase it. If they have mouth clicks, I can reduce or remove those mouth clips. And that takes those 30 hours down to eight. That's a week or a weekend of editing and I can get it posted and then people can hear it. which is important because sometimes we only have four or five days before the show will air. And I really like for the listeners to hear their voice, to make sure that what I included is true and it makes sense, and that they feel comfortable that it's going to go out because I believe that makes for a satisfied customer.00:07:33 BRIAN HANCOCKAnother nice thing, and it's a large contribution, in addition to all the editing that you're doing on the public affairs clearance. to make sure that we all stay on the right side of the military as we're presenting our ideas. That is very important. Not everyone has access to a public affairs officer, depending on what echelon they sit. The fact that you have also very kindly taken your personal time to do a lot of public affairs review for folks to make sure that we're in line with DOD policy guidance is a huge asset for us. It really is. I'd like to kind of close out our time. Just talking about some things we'd like to see the future for the podcast, where we want to take this to grow the franchise. Yeah, the talent that we've brought to the table and the quality of the guests are too. They're just incredible where we're going. John, as our founder and creator, if we could do a couple more things, in your opinion, should they be?00:08:34 JOHN MCELLIGOTTTwo come to mind. One is... How do we get more NCOs on the show? So any NCO listening or any officer listening, reach out to your team sergeants. Those NCOs who are on your teams or in the CAPT or wherever in these formations, you share their knowledge. Share an experience where they may have deployed, where they went on a training experience and learned some lessons and want to share that because there's so many more NCOs out there than officers. incredibly smart, especially in the civil affairs formations, Army and Marine Corps. And there are a lot of people who are not ready to write something. Even though we want the community to be this learning community, they're not prepared and don't want to or don't know how to write something. If that's the way you want to go, the Civil Affairs Association is also set up to help you. So the issue papers is one way. But if you want to write a paper and submit it to someplace else, in the DoD community or the interagency community, then you can do that. And there's a whole network of people ready to help you to improve your writing skills. But come on the show. What I love is, Jack, you are able to form questions in a conversation and highlight the guest, right? You're the host, you're guiding the conversation, but you're trying to put a spotlight on that guest. And it can be a comfortable conversation. You want to have some questions to lead, to guide it, but then it just becomes a normal conversation. And if you're in the civil affairs community, if you got here, you should be able to have a normal conversation with somebody. The second one is grabbing topics that are ripped from the headlines. So unfortunately, there are some things that continue for many, many months or years, the conflict in Ukraine, what's happening right now with Gaza and Israel and Hezbollah. There are individuals who are in think tanks. who get paid to write and to talk. There are a lot of people in the interagency who want to share their knowledge. And so we just need to call them. I mean, Jack, you talked about this. You now got in the seat. You have an excuse to call someone and send them an email. And a lot of people surprisingly will say yes. I think it just takes more of us listening to say, oh, that's something that I care about. Okay, if you're not the person who wants to reach out, send us a message and we can do it on your behalf.00:10:57 JACK GAINESRight. And what I really find exciting is when we find someone like Colonel Fidler, who was out there, was out there in Cyprus working on the Gaza relief mission and getting them on because we can always get a spokesperson or a talking points person or a representative, but to get someone who actually was knee deep in it, that is a CA person, and they come in here and they're tired and they're like, man, it was rough and this is what we found. It's so much more real. It's so much more pertinent.00:11:26 BRIAN HANCOCKmore pertinent. I'm Mary's source evidence. This is rough. This is what we found. But hey, this is what we learned. This is what we offer back to the community because this is going to happen again, right? And here's how we can feed more people. What an amazing mission.00:11:40 JACK GAINESRight. And I get calls from folks in the community going, hey, can I contact this person that you had on the show? And I'm like, sure. And I plug them in because one CA. It makes a difference across the community to get people connected and talking and helping each other out. It does.00:11:55 JOHN MCELLIGOTTSo there were some things that stood out to your question about what to see going forward, skills that would help CA practitioners or operators at the tactical and operational level. I know we need to grow that awareness and our skills at the operational strategic level, but most of the questions and comments that came into me were, oh my gosh, I listened to these episodes to prepare for qualification or my first job or my second job. And so going back to the archives was incredibly helpful for them. If there are additional skills that we can help to see around the bend and what's coming and prepare soldiers and Marines for what's going to come in the future, use this as a platform to educate the community.00:12:34 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd congratulations. Your search and due diligence paid off, and you're going to be now the deputy pullout here for United States Army, Africa, and Europe. That's your next assignment. It's super exciting and probably...00:12:49 BRIAN HANCOCKreach back to you for an episode to interview you at some point as you learn more about that. And also, John, I really appreciate what you mentioned about the value that NCOs bring the formation. When foreign officers come to look at the U .S. Army, what they really want to see is our NCO Corps, because it's been very difficult for other militaries to replicate the quality that our NCOs bring. And I think while we want to hear from all NCOs, I have personally a particular interest in hearing from some of the NCOs who have been in the 38 Gulf formations. I think we're still evolving what value -added role will be for non -commissioned officers in the 38 call pyramid, and love to hear what their thoughts are to help shape that, because the doctrine and toes are still being laid out for that. All the way to Jack, the last say on where we go in the future, but I'll add my two cents here. Something that I'd like to do more of, everything we do in the military that truly matters is joint mind. Marine Corps has civil affairs. The Department of the Navy closed its formal civil affairs program a little time ago, but it lives on in a sense through the Marine Corps, who are part of the Department of the Navy, are brothers in the ground combine element, and what the civil affairs groups are doing, and they also have civil affairs capabilities sitting in their meth information groups, is incredible. And we need to hear more of their stories. We have Ash Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez, his story, Plank Now, some of the things that he's done on the show. I encourage you to listen to that. We need more of that content. We need to, they have a fantastic schoolhouse out at Quantico. We need to get some of the folks involved in that curriculum development and what they're doing on the show. And we need more CIMIC, right, joint combined. We need more of that CIMIC piece to it here. That's something that I would like to see in the future. And another thing I'd like to see is more user -driven, requested content. I don't know if we have a forum for that, Jack, or we will in the future. But how would our 1CA podcast listeners request specific content that they are interested in, maybe for college in non -government organization support or relief efforts or other things? How could we take requests and then build a show to help fill the interest of our listeners? So those are two things that I'd like to see. Jack, over to you.00:15:10 JACK GAINESSure. A lot of people do email ideas. they send it over to the capodcasting at gmail .com, which is also on the show links and in the webpage. So that one works well. We get a lot of people asking questions. Usually I ask them who's the best person to talk about it, and then they set up the introduction, or they're like, I don't know, and I'm like, well, I guess you're it, and pull them in. So nothing like getting volunteered in or volunteering yourself accidentally. But one thing that with the SIMIC portion, I just finished the NATO CIMIC conference on the future of CIMIC, CIMIC forecasting at The Hague. It was great. Tons of smart, interesting people from throughout NATO and the world, actually. There was people from internationally there too. And what I found is that there's a real need for finding CA CIM in competition.00:15:59 JACK GAINESI found is that there's a real need for finding CA CIM in competition. Even though we're in it, we're fighting it every day and we're the golden children of competition and working with civil populations that are having agents from both sides coming in, trying to influence them. We're the ones on the ground, us and SOF, that are making the difference between that population shifting towards the Russians, the Chinese, or us. So I'll be pitching this year to set up a work group on competition. how we can work with our partner nations and our host nation to build up CIMIC that focuses on winning in competition. OSCE just wrote a paper called Contesting Russia. And the folks over in Vienna are throwing out everything old and they're rebuilding their programs based on that paper. And it's ramifications to the military. Because as you know, when you're working at the strategic level on civil affairs, you're... PAMISI is multinational organizations and government. So if you're looking for a political arm, you need someone like OSCE or you need the UN or you need the Hague or another organization that represents all the multiple governments in the world. For the economics, you need groups like OSCE, ASEAN, Africa Economic Forum. And those are the groups that you work with to pull into the individual nations that you're working with in order to bring the change that you want or the influence you want that builds growth, builds stability, shifts a population into the support of their own representative government and economy. So that is one that's very important to me. And actually that highlights another thing that this show does is it does advocate for civil affairs. It's a great thing because when people come on here and they talk about an issue or a solution, they're pitching it. They're advocating to the group and it builds a common voice, a common knowledge that helps CA, I think, become a sharper arrow in the quiver. That's something I see in the future is that defining the role in competition, which is why I'll be honest, I brought Patrick Alley on and I brought David Luna on because these people are fighting in. the corruption sphere, they're in the law enforcement sphere and in the political sphere. And by knowing these folks and having their words here and their connections to the group, it helps us as a community to be effective as we go downrange. That's been fantastic content.00:18:32 BRIAN HANCOCKWe've been in the militaries around the world, including NATO, have focused on crisis and conflict for a while. They're pretty good at that. Competition is new, even though we're 99 % of the time the military will be in competition. We don't have all the doctrine yet. There's a joint concept for competing, but all programs, plans, METs, measurements, strategies, they're undiscovered frontier. And the more energy we put into that, less actual fighting with loss of love and treasure. So it's amazing to see how our doctrine is evolving and what the inherent opportunities are. And Jack, thank you for jumping into that and helping buy some guidance and direction for us to build that content.00:19:12 JACK GAINESWell, and people are seeing it. If we lose in competition, we lose a country's orbit and we lose access, basing, cooperation, overflight, just like the car, but also countries like Georgia, where Russian agents went in and paid for the campaigns of pro -Russian politicians and also started degrading the ability to campaign by those who are pro -Western. And now the government has become a proxy and the population is protesting. But that's what winning in competition looks like for our adversaries. Our job to win in competition looks a lot like Colombia, where soft forces, CA, went in and worked with the government to create stability, to bring the FARC to the negotiation table so that they... stabilize that region to stop becoming such a violent, conflict -ridden area, especially for the populations. We do win. We have to highlight that we win. We need to learn those lessons, and we need to apply them everywhere else.00:20:16 BRIAN HANCOCKelse. Yeah. We had some awesome IAP programs, too, dealing with the FARC. Folks at the Able Postgraduate School Core Labs have done incredible social network analysis of the FARC, so we understand it's a very unusual organization. It has to be targeted differently. But these are things that we can do as enterprise. When we get all of our resources together and bend all aspects of national power towards achieving a positive result, more and more can be done. And as I hear you talking, Jack, I keep hearing in the back of my mind that Sun Tzu quote we all know, defeated generals go to war and then seek to win, while victorious generals win first and then go to war. I think the quote's actually in the reverse, but that's the point. It shows that you win in competition and then... The declaration of conflict and the resolution are effectively a fate accompli at them because you've already set the stage very effectively in competition. And I think as a joint combined force, there's more work for us to do there, and I'm excited to see that.00:21:16 JOHN MCELLIGOTTWell, gentlemen, it's clear listening to the two of you talk that, Ryan, as a guest host, it's amazing the experience you bring to the table and Jack has taken the helm of the show. perspective that you bring and the outside guests that you bring on the show. This is the right direction for the community. Congratulations for what you've done. People's Choice Award nominee. It's great to hear. Me too. I'm energized. I want to come back and guest host and bring some other guests on the show for you. Everyone listening, thank you so much. You probably don't hear this enough, but thank you for listening to the show for so many years. Please continue to support what Jack and Brian are doing. the Civil Affairs Association. If you're not yet a member, you got to join the thing. It's really cheap and you get a lot of information. In fact, I've always received more information from the association than I tend to get from my chain of command. I don't have all the time to think about what's happening on their side of the world. So I can just listen to an episode while I'm out for a run or driving my car or whatever, and I can learn about all the stuff you just mentioned. So thanks for doing it.00:22:20 BRIAN HANCOCKThank you everyone for joining us today. this episode of One Civil Affairs Podcast. We'll be back in full spring after the holidays are through, and I hope you take the opportunity to go through the index that Major Gaines has put together so during the holidays that you can listen to some of your favorite content.00:22:40 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Today, we welcome Rocco Santurri, who wrote "Spoils of the Status Quo," an article that describes the current stalemate in Korea as the best option for the international community.
Spoils of the status quo: https://divergentoptions.org/category/writers/rocco-p-santurri-iii/
Other points in the discussion
1-Beginning with the historical and current foundations of KJU’s legitimacy as Supreme Leader, how those could be degraded, and which internal groups could exploit that degradation. Given KJU needs the US “threat” to substantiate his narrative to his domestic audience, how de-escalating tensions through de-escalatory IO works against the KJU regime.
2-Expanding bilateral and trilateral relationships, and/or new relationships with NATO countries or the bloc itself to offset increased Russian influence in the region (more of a Eurasian Theatre-outlook, versus EUCOM and PACOM).
3-The rapidly expanding relationship between RUS/DPRK also presents an opening for the US; DPRK is still heavily dependent on China, especially economically, far more than any other country. China might be receptive to assisting US efforts to remind RUS/DRPK of their standing as lesser powers in the region.
4-The dream of denuclearization might need to die; it is very difficult to imagine a scenario in which KJU would voluntarily agree to any level denuclearization, and even if so, proof of compliance would be problematic. Taking that off the table could advance other foreign policy efforts, many of which it currently inhibits.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Music by Escape One Best of Japanese Jazz Fusion and Japanese Jazz Funk with Japanese Jazz and Japanese Jazz MusicRetrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z64nA4F_pbQ
---
Transcript
00:00:05 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Roko Santuri, who wrote Spoils of the Status Quo, an article that describes the current stalemate in Korea as the best option for the international community. So let's get started.
Jack Gaines
So where'd you get the idea of Spoils of the Status Quo? I was thinking about how could I say that there's benefit from a stalemate because you don't really get too much verbiage about that.00:00:58 ROCCO SANTURRIwas thinking about how could I say that there's benefit from a stalemate because you don't really get too much verbiage about that. You always hear spoils of war. We're used in that regard. And I thought, what about spoils of status quo? Because it definitely is providing some rewards to people. For Korea, I was looking at the four options, war, peace, reintegration, a stalemate. Looking at it and putting them all against each other for all the parties, stalemate was the one that actually had some type of significant interest for each party involved.00:01:25 JACK GAINESOkay. Everyone had what they wanted from it.00:01:28 ROCCO SANTURRIAt least a strong portion of it, not ideal, was usually better than the alternatives. Yeah.00:01:33 JACK GAINESIf the option is a fight or to get along awkwardly, most people will go for the awkward relationship. Absolutely. But people never rate you on able to keep the stability in a region. It's not as heard of, but it does make sense because if you are able to maintain a dam, So the floods don't come down and kill everybody in the town done well. So it's an interesting perspective. Can you tell me a little more about what your thinking was on the article? You mentioned this when we talked previously about Korea.00:02:09 ROCCO SANTURRIKorea. The idea of stalemate is definitely vastly superior compared to what the alternatives might be. And with the Korean War not being too far in the past and with politicians mentioning that as well, too, it's a thought that. Even though it's not ideal, we don't want to have a redo of what happened with the Korean War. And the previous president for the current one mentioned this specifically, saying that we cannot afford to have another catastrophic war on the peninsula and destroy all that we've built.00:02:38 JACK GAINESI think Kim Jong -il would use nuclear weapons if he was about to lose his regime. Absolutely.00:02:44 ROCCO SANTURRII think that's the consideration of his decision -making calculus. And if KJU comes to that point, what really would prevent him from doing that? And that's what... A lot of people have been trying to get into that thought process and what that might look like. Right. Without question, an extreme threat. And now the advances in weaponry, it's just on the peninsula.00:03:04 JACK GAINESAnd the thing is, everyone's worried about Seoul, but he'd probably be just as happy blowing up forces inside his border with a nuclear weapon. The behavior of the regime seems to be fairly callous towards its own people and military.00:03:21 ROCCO SANTURRIIt's tough to argue that the entire country isn't living in a horrible condition for the sake of one family to basically be billionaires. That argument could be made. This is not about the country. It's about the family. So you have a rare instance where a dictatorship is multiple iterations. He has a template going forward, which is good in a way because that did not involve nuclear weapons. But if it's all crashing down, one has to wonder. what his mindset would be like then and what he would be willing to do. And in that case, he might not have much to lose.00:03:53 JACK GAINESto lose. Could be that that template has other pages that we haven't read or seen. And that is the, what if it all comes down? What do you do? And his father has said, look, if this is what happens, this is who's in place for this reason. And you have him hit that button and you have this person do these things. and we just haven't encountered it because we haven't gotten into those phases of reality. Absolutely. And that's the great unknown,00:04:20 ROCCO SANTURRIgreat unknown, and that's something that it's really difficult to determine what that might look like, especially right now with the rhetoric, with the vitriol between the two sides. Sometimes it's difficult to separate between the two, and that might equate to actually some type of significant action. Fortunately, it seems as though it has settled somewhat. It's tit for tat. But it seems like that has sort of fallen into a pattern where it's not escalation. It's sort of a coordinated response, and it's almost expected at this point, particularly when it comes to the balloons, some of the other issues that are going on now as well.00:04:57 JACK GAINESRight. Shows of belligerence. No one's dying. Once people start dying, that's the peak, and then it all backs down from there.00:05:05 ROCCO SANTURRII think so. There have been border issues, and soldiers have been killed, and those resonate still decades later. So I think that's very accurate. I think a lot of what happens right now in terms of balloons, I think a lot of this is for domestic audience consumption, to show that there is no backing down, to show that there is a response. But I don't think it's much beyond that at this point.00:05:28 JACK GAINESBut you do have some thoughts about how his position and how his legitimacy can be degraded. You want to talk a little bit about those? His legitimacy with the domestic audience is extremely important.00:05:39 ROCCO SANTURRIthe domestic audience is extremely important. And in some ways, he is facing threats that have been historic, even with his grandfather and his father. Some of those are similar threats, which include from the elites and from the military. He has purged a lot of the military, and he's, for the most part, seemed to have kept the elites relatively happy. He's a lot more secure in power than he was earlier in his ring. But there are still threats. From the younger demographic, he seems very fearful of South Korean K -pop culture influencing younger generations. And he's responded with very severe penalties against individuals who've listened or viewed bad content, including executions not long ago of two 12 -year -olds. So what he has employed is sort of an imminent threat, enemy at the gate, domestic audience narratives. So he constantly pushes that. the country is under imminent threat, and that this substantiates the difficult existence that most of the DPRK civilians endure. If that threat were to exist, the populist might question why they have to live in a state of deprivation, limited freedoms, why in some ways they couldn't live more like South Koreans, which they have access to some of what is going on here, and they probably would be pretty accurate to ask questions about why they're living the way they are. And that's where his... narrative comes into this populism.00:07:07 JACK GAINESBut also South Korean dramas. Absolutely. I remember where popular people in North Korea seem to be bringing them in to watch TV shows, which I think is great. From a pop culture standpoint,00:07:19 ROCCO SANTURRIstandpoint, it's important and has an effect. It casts South Korea in a very positive light. And this goes against a lot of the propaganda that you have internally against South Korea, against the United States. It's well -optimated even with the war. The history has been rewritten. The DPRK did not invade. The U .S. invaded. This museum's there, what the U .S. did during that war. So any type of ability to sort of swing the info war is definitely something that he sees as a tremendous threat.00:07:50 JACK GAINESSo it's mostly an IO war right now. That and shows of force. Definitely shows of force.00:07:57 ROCCO SANTURRIforce. Obviously, the nuclear program is a high priority, and they've really done everything possible to expand that and remain. completely committed to it.00:08:06 JACK GAINESIs there any broadcasts of North Koreans that have integrated into South Korea and are just living their lives that are going up to North Korea so people kind of know what's going on? There's a good amount of interviews with defectors and they'll talk a little bit about what their life is like here.00:08:17 ROCCO SANTURRIinterviews with defectors and they'll talk a little bit about what their life is like here. They'll talk a lot about what their life in the DPRK and show the tremendous contrast between the two.00:08:27 JACK GAINESSo that is promoted to a certain degree. Well, there's one thing. If you've got a person... in an interview, you've got them sat down and they're just talking about their lives. It could look scripted. Sure. But if you're doing a day in a life where they've got a funky hat on and some whatever clothes and they're going down to the tables with all the baked goods, buy a little snack and they're a little coffee and they're walking over to their job, something like that where it's not that they have a convenient moment, but it's just they're hustling to go work and have a life. A day in the life type of coverage, I think, would be really effective because it shows that But there's people who have left North Korea. They have a life. You know, here's our apartment. It's a mess. But it's probably a lot better than what they had there. And just show that. Matter of fact, actually, wasn't there just recently a movie about a South Korean girl family who crashed in North Korea and they helped her get back? And so it's kind of sparked a romance between a North Korean elite and her. And you remember that? I've seen a lot of different movies and some YouTube series as well,00:09:30 ROCCO SANTURRIlot of different movies and some YouTube series as well, too, and it sort of vacillates between the two. It vacillates between what you're saying, where it shows a very positive spin and it really promotes cooperation. Others will talk some about the defectors, and it actually is a little more realistic in that it shows that they are benefiting from being in South Korea, but they also expand a little bit upon some of the challenges culturally coming into a society and how there's growing division between the two. even in terms of language and somewhat with culture. So there's a lot out there that will try to sway opinion one way or the other. But I think it's encouraging that it's still going both ways. It's not all negatives. There is some positive aspects as well.00:10:11 JACK GAINESThe last time I was at an exercise in Seoul, we were having a conversation about options that weren't explored. And I recommended that they just offer to KGU to make him emperor. Give him... $100 billion to become the emperor of all of Korea. He has no judicial powers. He has no powers at all, except for as a title. But he gets to be a hundred billionaire and all of Korea will be under his rule as emperor, but the most he can do is a parade.00:10:42 ROCCO SANTURRIHe definitely does seem to like his parades and ceremonies. That's for sure. There's no shortage of those.00:10:48 JACK GAINESEveryone's happy. The family's wealthy. They're emperors, emperors of all of Korea. They won. in that aspect. And then South Korea, North Korea can then become one unified state. So you make sure he gets all the shit he wants, but the government is run by basically South Korea.00:11:06 ROCCO SANTURRIAnd there's been talk too, from the standpoint of reunification, some of the pros and cons on that, and mostly from an economic standpoint, what that might look like. And there's been polling as well too about that. The numbers have been a little interesting, especially with South Korea. It's been... actually growing in terms of not wanting to reunify. In terms of the citizenship, I think that it is looking at more from a resolution and not what seems to be this perpetual state of affairs is. That's what the sentiment might be. But when I think the sides start to look at what some of the costs might be for something like reunification, I think that's when some of the enthusiasm starts to sour a little bit.00:11:46 JACK GAINESOh, yeah. It'd be a massive humanitarian effort to stabilize the country. and then start the construction. It would be huge.00:11:55 ROCCO SANTURRIAbsolutely huge. You'd be absorbing a bit of a dead elephant on the back of a very functioning capitalist -driven autonomy. The estimate would be as much as $5 trillion, and from what we know, that could be a low number, but it would be a tremendous amount. I think that, with the younger generation of South Koreans, has started to make them look away from that a little more than their previous generations.00:12:17 JACK GAINESWell, do you want to talk about... working with bilateral and trilateral relationships, either to stabilize the current status quo or to elicit change? With the U .S., I think it's important to expand bilateral and trilateral relationships, and also more along the lines of a Eurasian outlook,00:12:30 ROCCO SANTURRIimportant to expand bilateral and trilateral relationships, and also more along the lines of a Eurasian outlook, supporting some relationships with the NATO countries or the bloc itself. That's been a conversation as well. contributing to more of a Eurasian theater outlook versus a traditional UCOM or PACOM division. Some of the key relationships, obviously the Trilat with Japan and Iraq is critical, especially given the historical animosities between the two states. I think it's pretty noteworthy how far that's come along. I'd also look at AUKUS as a key relationship, especially with some of the overlap with the United Nations Command and with UK and NATO as well. And Department of State talks about their latticework of variable geometric relationships, and I think this is a good example of it, in that it adds to or it solidifies the isolation of the DPRK. And the Quad also provides some additional overlap towards that effort as well. I think U .S. encouragement of greater NATO coordination and formation, more of a Eurasian outlook, and also to the arms sales. Korea has had arms sales with Australia. with Poland and Ukraine, but not direct through the United States.00:13:43 JACK GAINESLooking at North Korea, though, are they still considered a prior state with no relationships, or are they starting to recognize the Russian and Chinese relationships? How do you see the North Korean network of relationships and partnerships?00:13:58 ROCCO SANTURRII think it's pretty fascinating, actually. And what's happened this year with Russia, probably to the surprise of many. I think that the rapidly expanding relationship between the two does present an opening in a way for the U .S. actually, in that the DPRK is still heavily dependent on the PRC, especially economically, and also coming off of COVID far more than any other country. So the PRC has made it known that it's not terribly thrilled with the increased relationship between Russia and the DPRK. And that is an area where actually the U .S. and PRC have some overlap in terms of what their interest might be. PRC has ruled out any type of trilateral to date with Moscow and the DPRK. Russia now has also said that as well, but they only seem to have said that after the PRC. So it seems that the PRC is interested in making sure that their partners there are aware of what the pecking order is in terms of the region.00:14:52 ROCCO SANTURRIseems that the PRC is interested in making sure that their partners there are aware of what the pecking order is in terms of the region. So I think that in some ways the PRC could use better relations with the U .S. to sort of dampen some of the enthusiasm for the DPRK. But is it realistic that we would want the PRC to have a different attitude about a nation that is deeply in its orbit and in its pocket so that they can build the type of foreign policy they want through that nation?00:15:08 JACK GAINESit realistic that we would want the PRC to have a different attitude about a nation that is deeply in its orbit and in its pocket so that they can build the type of foreign policy they want through that nation? Thinking that they'll shift their behavior because we want it is not going to happen. It didn't shift the behavior when the relationship between China and the U .S. was strong. So I don't know. I think that that's wishful. I think so. The DPR can't provide PRC with strategic depth,00:15:39 ROCCO SANTURRIcan't provide PRC with strategic depth, and they certainly do not want to have a U .S. ally on their border. So I think that the geographical aspects of it are not going to be changed. I do think they could voice their displeasure. They have strong elements of economic coercion. But it was a telegram that was leaked a long time ago and made the news, but they sort of saw it. The DPRK is like a petulant child that was causing some trouble. While they might be upset, they're not going to abandon the DPRK because there's too much intertwined interest with the PRC.00:16:10 JACK GAINESFlipping the script here, China has grown in its relationship with South Korea. There's now Chinese businesses in South Korea. There's more population. Matter of fact, there's a very strong PRC push to eject Americans out of the peninsula. It might be that unification will require that China and the U .S. separate themselves from the peninsula in order to allow reunification.00:16:37 ROCCO SANTURRII think so. And I think with the PRC, principally, they would like to avoid any type of conflict and get back to where they feel like their strengths are. And that's economic. It will always be a strong interest for them. And some of this overlapping partnerships, while it helps the U .S., it also can potentially hurt as well, too. And the PRC and the ROC is definitely a case where that might be the case, especially on an economic level.00:17:01 JACK GAINESYou ready to talk about denuclearization and why we need to recognize North Korea as a nuclear power?00:17:07 ROCCO SANTURRII'll definitely talk about it. Start with. It's just very difficult to imagine a scenario in which KJU would voluntarily agree to denuclearization. Even if so, there's compliance issues as well. There's case studies that senior North Korean military officials reference pretty regularly to Slavadan Milošević, Saddam Hussein, and Muammar Gaddafi as leaders who could have resisted U .S., quote, regime -changing tactics, end quote, if they kept their nuclear weapons. So it's difficult from that standpoint to see where they would be motivated to do so. The stalemate aspect of the peninsula, which in a way kind of forms a little bit of a Goldilocks zone or a geopolitical sweet spot for KJU, a lot of that is underpinned by his nuclear. So it just adds to another layer of why he would not be in his best interest to do so.00:18:05 JACK GAINESAnd he probably looks at what's going on in Ukraine and saying, see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you have nuclear weapons, Russia would have probably have stalled going in. Matter of fact, the first encroachment they did was to capture the active nuclear power plant.00:18:21 ROCCO SANTURRII think that Ukraine puts it directly front and center to something that they can point to to say, this is why we would be foolish for us to do it. And obviously it would put the U .S. in a difficult spot because it's tough to debate that within reason. So again, I don't really see it. And it does seem in some of the open source articles that there is a little more talk now of... that it is more about deterrence. The official policy is going to be denuclearization, but there is more of an unofficial focus on deterrence because of how events have proceeded and the reality of the situation.00:18:56 JACK GAINESSo what's the harm of declaring North Korea a nuclear power?00:18:59 ROCCO SANTURRII would look at it a few ways. I'll actually start with some of the positives. Positives would be that you could focus on some other issues that have been held up in relations because it's been a non -starter because of the nuclear weapons issue. whether it's cybersecurity attacks, human rights abuses, overall improved relations between Iraq and DPRK. I do think from a negative standpoint, it does, in many ways, it shows that our efforts have been unsuccessful, that it simply did not work. And there's been a tremendous amount of technical effort that's been put into that. I think it also, it's a massive encouragement to other nations, especially when we're trying to stop proliferation, that it can be done and that the U .S. would agree to it. So it's a tremendously difficult position either way.00:19:46 JACK GAINESway. Do you think of that as a sunk cost fallacy the U .S. is holding on to?00:19:51 ROCCO SANTURRIThere definitely is a lot of validity to that because it's something they're clinging to that they don't have. Right. So from that standpoint, and if you even reference something like the Cuban Missile Crisis, each side gave up something. And there are some articles that compare the two, usually compare the differences, but they will talk about... the missiles from cuba being removed but they also talk about the jupiter missiles that the u .s owned being removed from turkey and the pledge never to invade cuba now the the former in that was not released was more of a reputational issue where jfk did not want it to be released that the jupiter missiles would be removed but the inability to invade was known so Taking that into consideration, it's potentially giving up something we never had for movement on other issues that we deem to be very, very important, including some of the ones I mentioned previously, especially with cybersecurity attacks against the U .S. critical infrastructure.00:20:46 JACK GAINESThere is no lever or enticement. They don't have a stick or a carrot to offer for it.00:20:53 ROCCO SANTURRII don't see what would materialize where you would have something that would change the decision -making calculus. I just, I simply don't see it.00:21:00 JACK GAINESThe denuclearization issue as white elephant, it kind of consumes up so much of the room and pushes out things that we could actually do to either make North Korea more accountable to the international community or a better partner in the South Korea -North Korea relations. Do you think of it as a balanced policy? Do you think it needs to be shifted? I think is it possible to pursue both?00:21:28 ROCCO SANTURRIto pursue both? It is, but by doing so, you are in a way unofficially de -emphasizing the denuclearization aspects of it. And this might also just be a product of time. It might come to a time where we realize that this has just gone on for so long that there might be a shift in the policy. But with those underlying issues, it would be extremely helpful if there was more dialogue on that. The question is the cost -benefit. Where does the U .S. government see the tipping point when overall policy shift has to be made?00:21:59 JACK GAINESIs there any points I'm missing?00:22:01 ROCCO SANTURRIThe only major point that I think that adds context to this conversation beyond the DPRK and the United States is just the benefits that the stalemate has provided for a lot of the parties here. I think that aspect of it, while we would want to focus on this specifically, it's always the context of the region. And I think that's something that is extremely important to consider. that there are other interests out there that actually benefit from exactly how things are right now. And I think that sometimes we were not as regionally focused and didn't understand the effects of other states that we were attempting to engage. So I think that is an important context.00:22:40 JACK GAINESCan you give an example of someone or some organization that benefits from the stalemate?00:22:46 ROCCO SANTURRIRunning through the entities with the ROC, there's no costly conflict, but they get U .S. support. We'll potentially reduce support with peace or reunification, and that would be very costly. For the U .S., obviously, the presence on the pen to protect Iraq, but we also have a big footprint in the vicinity of our pacing track, which is an added value. The PRC, the DPRK, they don't want to go anywhere. They want that strategic depth. And I look with Russia. This is a chance to reinsert themselves here with Korea if it's a stalemate, if it persists. They can oppose U .S. interests in the region, but it's not extensive economic and military commitment, and that's paramount for them given the fact of what's going on in Ukraine. So while the stalemate might not seem as beneficial overall, if you kind of dig into some of the individual countries and their interests, there is reason why I think it's had legs, and it's not specifically because of the two Koreas.00:23:41 JACK GAINESAny last thoughts? Do you have any new papers coming out, or any last thoughts on this paper?00:23:46 ROCCO SANTURRIYeah, it's Engine and Journal APS, and it's a friend of mine I actually was at King's College with, and we decided to write something together. So that is in the submission process and editing. So that's probably the next stop in the shoot for me. And after that, I think I might try to reach out a little more and maybe go to a different region for a little bit and change it.00:24:07 JACK GAINESYou mean out of the Indopaycom area?00:24:10 ROCCO SANTURRII think so, yes. Okay. Very cool. I'd like to explore the relationship between the two a little bit more, more of that emergence of a duration theater. Dig a little more deeper into that.00:24:21 JACK GAINESOne thing that I see that civil affairs can do that seems like a lot of other folks need to work on, and that is the global perspective of the PRC, counter -influence, the Russian global networks, and thinking more outside the theater on how our pacing competitor. acts in South America, in North America, in Europe, all the way into the Pacific Islands to its region in the India region. And that's something that I like to encourage. If you're someone who's working in Korea and you understand what Korea is doing there and you go to Europe, you'll find that North Korea has operations. And by knowing that can help. The rest of the theater commands understand what the influence is and how it applies because we're not thinking as if we're in a global competition. We're thinking in a multi -theater competition mindset. It's not helpful.00:25:25 ROCCO SANTURRIThat's an absolutely critical point. And it's interesting with that outlook, Western audiences, when they look at adverts or they look at products, they have a tendency to look directly at the center of the picture. And this is, of course, generally speaking, but Eastern markets have a tendency to look at the outside of the picture. They look at the totality of it. They don't just look at the center of it. So these are eye tracking for stores where they just want to see what catches your eye and what you might buy. So I try to think of that in the same way that it is easy to get very down in the weeds and to be very, very focused, especially from a civil affairs standpoint. But having that overall global outlook. At the end of the day, you need to be cognizant of that on multiple levels. I think it just involves for a better, more informed civil affairs effort.00:26:11 JACK GAINESAbsolutely. All right, my friend. Well, you have a good night and I'll talk to you soon. Talk to you soon. Thank you. Bye. Bye.00:26:20 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode. Email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Welcome. Today, we bring Dr. Stanislava Mladenova to discuss the NATO CIMIC Foresight Conference.
Book: Rambo Meets the Red Cross. Found at: https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781538187722/When-Rambo-Meets-the-Red-Cross-Civil-Military-Engagement-in-Fragile-States
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to Ambience Lord for the sample of OKTOBERFEST Music
Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/Kb_lr32vcrk?si=_V4vM_4BBv2zNxY2
---
Transcript
00:00:01 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Dr. Stanislava Mildanova, author of When Rambo Meets the Red Cross. We met at the NATO Strategic Foresight Conference in The Hague this October. In this session, we reflect on our experiences at the conference and discuss some ideas for the future of civil -military relations. So let's get started.00:00:56 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAWe tend to very constantly think about civil as a human -to -human function on the ground or, you know, potentially function of the Navy when it pulls into port. And whenever I try to explain this to a civilian and what it means, I have to kind of think logistically through every function that the military could perform, which is any function potentially. And whether they join well, whether a domain joins well with another domain, or whether that domain needs to be able to understand what is in the civilian environment that it needs to better integrate with, that's where I think things can get a bit wonky, as you said. Sure. Yeah, I think at the moment, business is booming in Europe, for obvious reasons.00:01:42 JACK GAINESVery true. What did you think of the conference? It started off with... some panels, and then we went into some work groups, and then another panel, and then we had some social hours in between. Yeah,00:01:56 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAI think I found that exactly as I expected to, which is trying to really be creative around the conversation of what the future means. Of course, I was with one of the groups where we looked at how the world could be in 2045 from a cognitive superiority standpoint. You know, ask a soldier to be a social scientist or ask a soldier to be an environmentalist or a techie. And that is by definition something very difficult to do. I mean, ask a civilian person to be a military person, right? And that's kind of the whole idea of putting yourself in the other's shoes. And it really gets at the heart of Sid Milne. So I think that within the constraints of how... creative and innovative, we can be within the three days. But also understanding that the military by default has this culture of, you know, creativity is not the place, right? You execute, you're kind of given orders and you just go about them. I think that I've gone to several of these conferences now with them. And I think that every time it just kicks the can a bit further down the road. And that's good. I don't think we can be too aggressive or innovative or get outside of our comfort zone, certainly whenever you're talking about the military and whenever you're talking about bureaucracies.00:03:18 JACK GAINESRight. The listeners should know, and that's that they did a 20 -year projection into the future. And most of the, I would say their military forecasters, projected pretty dour futures. Less freedoms, a lot more conflict, a lot more environmental challenges. Not a lot of peace, love and happiness in the future with those guys. I have to challenge it because I don't fully disagree, but I don't fully agree as well. I think there had some logic gaps because military forecasters, they look at risk and what future risk looks like.00:03:54 JACK GAINESlook at risk and what future risk looks like. So if you're going to look at a military forecast, it's going to look like risk problems because that's what they're looking at. If you look at some of the other forecasters that are not risk -focused, you'll see there's some really positive things coming up as well. I just didn't think it was as balanced as it should have been.00:04:15 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAWell, this is where I think trying to get a bit more in their community is very important. So let me give you a bit of the perspective of a development person. Let's say you're a development person that's working on climate.00:04:22 JACK GAINESlet me give00:04:22 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAa bit of the perspective of a development person. Let's say you're a development person that's working on climate. And we talk about all kinds of things get thrown around. on the climate, the seas are rising and everything's getting hot and you're going to have conflict and so on. And that's correct. And at the same time, when you're throwing the resilience conversation, it'll probably be a whole other podcast series. But essentially, you do have a lot of innovative strategies on how to leverage. the opportunity that presents itself. So are you looking at new types of horticulture? Are you looking at more exploratory ways to allow for livelihoods? Are you necessarily looking at, the assumption is always like, oh, people are going to move away from very hot areas where they can't grow food and go somewhere else and go on a huge influx. But we don't actually know that it's very hard for humans to just pick up and go elsewhere. likely they're going to try to adapt. And adaptation is part of being resilient. You don't have the shock absorbency to deal with something. So you need to come up with new ways to react to your current environment. And I think that there's also an assumption somehow that conflict will also cause people to leave. And that's also not necessarily a straightforward answer because people may be more willing to live in a place with terrible land. And more Cossack simply because they can provide for their livelihood and they don't want to leave their land and their families. So I think the more we can open up the aperture to think adaptation as opposed to shock, we're probably dealing with a more realistic scenario. And there are people outside of the military profession. Think about this. And their DNA is all about long term. How do you grow? In 30 years, how do you provide livelihoods? How do you lift people out of poverty by the end of the decade, by the end of the century?00:06:25 JACK GAINESRight. Matter of fact, I got to bring Gus Ferreira and Jamie Critelli back on because they are long -term economic agriculturalists. Another thing that struck me about the conference was the work groups. Did you attend any of the work groups or did you just present?00:06:42 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAI actually facilitated one of the work groups. Really fascinating. You go and you facilitate, but you're also learning. And our groups were really very well mixed. We had someone from the police that from you, Paul, and we had also a couple of colleagues from the NGO communities. But again, I found that I think our difficulty was trying to really look to the future. We thought about the future in the construct of what we know about the presence.00:07:14 JACK GAINESWhich is how most people project the future is what we know now and just kind of extend it out and see how things have changed.00:07:21 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAExactly. It's really hard to know, right? So we were kind of thinking like, well, what will NATO look like? And as some of us, is there a guarantee that there will be a NATO or there will be an EU? Which actually, if I can take us back to your question, I think it ties very neatly into really not underestimating how difficult multilateralism actually is.00:07:44 JACK GAINESOh, yeah.00:07:45 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAIt's very hard politically, extremely hard operationally. And we now have 32 nations. I was with NATO, young staffer, when it was only 28, I believe. No, it was actually 26 when I joined. And it was a really interesting, up -and -close experience to see what it means to get everyone to agree and then to operationalize what a guidance means. Try to get 32 different countries whose military do things different ways. Yes, to join NATO, you need to be part of the force structure. There's a common denominator under which everyone needs to be able to operate. But these are still sovereign nations and sovereign militaries and culturally, mechanically, organizationally, technically, budgetarily, whichever way you want to spin it. There's very much a difference. So you will appreciate this. There's always kind of a bit of, you know, CA and SF and, you know, CA and something else. Well, take a small country's military where the soldier has to be all things, where there is no separation between the lethal and the diplomatic in development. And then you're just dealing with a very different mindset and a ballgame in terms of what and who you can deploy.00:09:05 JACK GAINESTrue. That reminds me of Switzerland. Even though they're not a NATO member, they're soldiers. They have to do everything. They have to know how to do disaster response. They have to know how to do offensive operations. And they have to have technical skills. It's a lot, but be diverse and be successful at it. And that's another part of it is Europe having so many wealthy countries that have good education and training. Get really quality people. I mean, and to be soldiers, the Simic teams that I met. Those people were brilliant, really capable. So it was impressive to talk with them and to work with them on different subjects. One thing that caught me, though, it seemed like a lot of people were hung up on Article 4 and 5. And they didn't really want to talk anything pre -Article 4 or 5, any kind of lead -ups, any kind of what I call zero -based planning, because that's not where the business is. They were like... Once the rockets hit and we go to Article 4 or 5, that's when we do our job. And so I found a challenge there, and it's one that I pitched at NATO, and that is to start a working group to discuss CIMIC in competition. Domestic CIMIC, where you're doing crisis response in a nation, even if it's your nation or if you're going over to a nation to support them, as well as... expeditionary civic, where you're deployed overseas or in a hostile zone, what kind of efforts can you do before the fight begins?00:10:44 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAI think you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone says, oh, we need to be talking to each other before the crisis happens, so before Article 5. We say this, and yet it's very, very... deliberate, thoughtful, long -term, and kind of taxing to think about a worst -case scenario and essentially be able to think through every possible outcome. This is why I really enjoyed the work and the exercise that we had. As you know, I've been focusing a lot on this work and trying to mobilize the conversation as well in Washington for quite some time around research around the book. What actually very pleasantly surprised me from the conference is that signal is booming in Europe. The conversation is there, I think, for obvious reasons because of what's happening in the East. But again, it's booming because there's literally a crisis and there are boots on the ground. And I always wonder why we've not had the same type of energy and urgency. here in the US. And of course, we have it. We have it in the context of great power competition. Here it's China. In Europe, it's Russia. So you really have to bow to the moment and what people are talking about and thinking about. But it's exactly as you said, we need to be having these conversations in advance. And it's got so much other stuff to deal with. Bigger fish to fry. We'll feed people their signal vegetables when the moment comes. And I think this conversation around fragility This conversation about donor funding now increasingly going to fragile states. If we can focus on prevention, we can certainly focus the conversation more deliberately to start getting these signs to speak each other's love language. If we need to have the conversation around capacity and absorbency on the health or education side, we certainly can have the same conversation on the security side. The security relationship oftentimes is a political relationship. It's not necessarily focused around the fascism. But if you take up a multilateral organization such as the World Bank, they're now starting to operate in programming spaces that were completely off limits just 15, 20 years ago. So we have an impetus and we have plenty of terrain to see how some of this works by deliberately coming to the team.00:13:21 JACK GAINESWhen people are talking about crisis, they mostly are focusing on Ukraine. The one thing that I brought up was that Georgia is just as much a crisis as Ukraine because government is being toppled. It's just not with war. It's by political subversion. And that's where SIMIC can help a country if they were involved with Georgia in working with civil security, spotting risk, coordinating better responses so that they could work with the military on countering things like cyber incursions. or financial encouragements, while then showing the public that the military is there as part of the full -of -nation policy, it would have slowed down or even reversed the Russian attempts to subvert that government and bring in a bunch of politicians that are now rewriting all the laws in Georgia, a pro -Russian stance. And that's my challenge, is that if we lose in competition, there's not going to be a war. There won't be a need for a war. Everyone's equipment's going to be obsolete, because The governments will have changed, the financial systems have changed, and there's no one to fight because it's your own country that's been flipped by subversion.00:14:32 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAHaving grown up in Eastern Europe as a young person and coming here, being in the West for the majority of my life, there's a certain vulnerability.00:14:43 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAThose countries that are the buffer between East and West have always been subjected and vulnerable to psychological evaporation, convincing people. And you and I talked about this in The Hague. You don't have to necessarily prove that what you're saying is true. All you have to do is just plant a bit of doubt and slow down decision -making. What is what's going to throw everything off? And now people have to have just a tiny bit of doubt whether what is being presented to them is what the information is or what the reality is.00:15:18 JACK GAINESBut I think that younger generations are actually getting better at spotting The BS. In Eastern Bloc countries, they've always challenged what they heard. There was always the official word and then the unofficial word. And in countries like the Middle East, where you always had radical groups promoting stuff, as well as the government and civil groups telling you things, they've learned how to decipher chaff from the real stuff. In the U .S., I'm seeing the younger generations also picking that up because of the deluge of misinformation, disinformation and meaningless communication. And so I think that people are growing better at deciphering it.00:16:03 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAThis is exactly right. And remember, the more exposure there is, I think, the more kind of variety there is of people having to select whether something is real or not, be it a piece of news or be it. Just an image or be it AI allows someone to look straight into the camera and not read off screen because, you know, so many people get on screen these days and have to give a presentation.00:16:30 JACK GAINESYeah, even me.00:16:30 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAeven me. Yeah, right. I mean, all of us, right? But the point is that almost on a weekly basis, something new comes out. Right. And the speed at which all of this is occurring. can sometimes outpace our ability to just kind of understand what the newest thing is, which is where I rely on my younger colleagues who are always much more up to par in things than I.00:16:52 JACK GAINESSure. So do you have any takeaways from either the presentations in the end or some of the social events? Did you have any kernels that you'd like to share, something that struck you?00:17:03 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAWhat really struck me was there's just a disconnection for what the military does. And I would probably... push back and say, is this a PR issue? Is it a branding? Is it a marketing issue? I mean, in the US, of course, we have a very different relationship.00:17:20 JACK GAINESSupport our troops, yeah.00:17:22 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAYeah, support our troops, people coming, the high school. I don't know to what an extent that exists among allies. And I mean, we know that everyone is having a hard time with recruitment numbers. That is more of a commitment to probably identity.00:17:37 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAto probably identity. kind of believing in the cause and ideology of your government. And it reinforces the social contract in a way that being completely removed from it may not.00:17:52 JACK GAINESOne thing that I noticed in Poland was that civil affairs teams were going out with Polish military and they were parking their vehicles in the market centers. And that way the public could walk up, look at the vehicles, talk to them, photos. They'd let the kids wear the hats or sit on the machines and get photos. And I thought that was a really good way to build comfort between the population and the military so that they felt comfortable with the U .S. being there with the Polish military. And that might be something that the other militaries might have to do. Getting more integrated with civil society might help the militaries to build back that good perspective. But also to do outreach, similar to what was going on in Poland. So I did hear that from... folks in conversation that they don't have a strong relationship with the public. There's a little bit of distrust in some countries. That's a PR thing. It needs to get handled. It needs to get jumped on quickly because the more there's propaganda targeting you, it is harder to build that relationship. The only time that you can build it at that point is if there's a crisis or a disaster and the military comes in and helps the population. That shifts it. which is also very important, is that the military be involved in crisis management so that they can show the humanity of the military in supporting its domestic population.00:19:16 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAThat's right. And I think for us who are heavily plugged into the civilian side, we need to serve as the bridge between a civilian and a soldier, the life of a soldier, which ultimately that career comes to an end for most people. They go on to do something in a civilian capacity. And the things that the military can teach you between medical training, engineering, infrastructure, you pick a profession, there's some part of the military that deals with that profession.00:19:49 JACK GAINESAll the way up to astronauts.00:19:50 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAExactly. I don't think I've ever come across an astronaut. Not that I come across so many astronauts, but I do have a big social circle. Hey. We need to tackle space. We need everybody, right? Right. But, you know, almost every one of them comes with a military background. If you talk to Médecins Sans Frontières, the one organization that will absolutely stay away from any involvement in the military because they stay neutral to the bombing operations, they will tell you some of the most impressive trauma care or medical response by military medics. One person explained it to me, said it's just absolutely fascinating to watch these guys almost like an orchestra coming together and everything is down to the T, being able to suture someone so quickly. And yeah, I get goosebumps just thinking about it because I spend so much of my time trying to explain to each side that they need each other's skills, not always, but in some capacity. So very solid skills for very important. Function is in everyday life for communities. So I always tell people, learn leadership skills, learn the training, learn the discipline, and just go out and climb into the civilian world. And I think the military needs, I think this gunslinger mentality that has left sort of a bad taste for people from the wars. Many saying that, yeah, I don't want to go in and do what the military does. And then for us to say, well, actually, there's so much more that the military does in here all the way. And this is where Koning needs to step in and really connect with the communities.00:21:33 JACK GAINESSo what are you looking to going forward?00:21:35 STANISLAVA MLADENOVASo I think that one of the things that would be really fascinating to see among allies is very difficult to do, but a little bit more around the wargaming and experimentation realm and trying to use existing methodologies. in the community, in the academic and practitioner community, to think about experimenting with some of these mechanisms and think about new wargaming tools and what does the future look like. So take everything that we discussed in the conference and now try to come up with the know -how and see if it changes our modus operandi. As you know, I always argue that CivMill is more of a way of being than it's an actual capability or a capacity or organization. It's really more about sort of those combination of the soft skills, the strategy and approach of the actors involved. Having more research and development around that would be great to help us think to the future.00:22:39 JACK GAINESYou know, it would be great if they do a war game based on competition. anything leading up to conflict. And when it hits conflict, the war game is over. And so your job is all the way leading up to it to try to win without fighting, either through political means or economic means or through civil engagements or influence or messaging. That would be an interesting war game because then we're really driving to the reality that's going on now.00:23:11 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAThat's right. A low -intensity conflict war game. It wouldn't be a war game. It might be a peace game.00:23:18 JACK GAINESWell, it's a war game. It's avoid all -out war by winning or the war happens. Right. Okay, we only have a few more minutes left. What's coming up for you? You're going to be pitching your book when Rambo meets the Red Cross. Do you have any testimonies? Do you have any conferences coming up? What's going on with you?00:23:37 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAOh, gosh. Well, I will be at the Civil War Association conference. In mid -November, not only will I be there talking about the book, I will have copies of the book ready to sign. So I invite our listeners, if you have a copy of When Ramble with the Red Cross, bring it with you. I will very gladly sign it and with my gratitude for everyone supporting this very small English community. But we'll also have some copies for sale. Okay,00:24:07 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAwell... That's it? I want to say it was really great to meet you in person and thanks so much for your support. I'm very grateful. It's great to have you.00:24:17 JACK GAINESto have you. It's a pleasure.00:24:18 STANISLAVA MLADENOVAIt's a pleasure.00:24:19 JACK GAINESOkay, great. Well, we'll talk soon. Absolutely. All right. Awesome.
Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, Email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today, Brian Hancock talks with Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez about how the Marine Corps modernization is shifting Civil Affairs' roles and duties in the force and how those changes impact their work in the Pacific.
MSgt Andrew Gonzalez joined the USMC-CA community in October 2015 as an E7. CA activations of note include OCT 2017 CJTF-OIR, clear and hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, DEC 2021 in support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, VA, a rare opportunity to support a Defense Support of Civil Authorities mission. MSgt Gonzalez was most recently activated in support of JTF-Red Hill, the safe and expedient refueling of the underground fuel storage facility on the island of Oahu. Allowed to meet with the Waianae Kupuna Council to discuss the transition from JTF-Red Hill leadership and mission to the Red Hill – Navy Closure Task Force.
MSgt Gonzalez has supported 1st Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years and continues to drive USA-USMC CA collaborative efforts, civil information management best practice, and USMC - Civil Military Operations training standards in direct response to OSD/INDOPACOM/MARFORPAC/IMEF demand for CA and Civic Action Team support.---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special Thanks to "Cool Jazz Hot Bossa" for the sample of Energy Jazz Music Playlist - Jazz Instrumental Upbeat - High Energy Jazz Music Mix. Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/bdWUj2NYDYQ?si=_bLf2fdTw6Ba93oh
---
Transcript
00:00:04 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:40 BRIAN HANCOCKWelcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez to discuss United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs, Civil Information Management, and civil harm mitigation and response. Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez joined the United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs community in October 2015 as an E -7. Civil Affairs activations of note include Combined Joint Task Force, Operation Inherent Resolve, Clear and Hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, Support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, Virginia, which was a rare opportunity to support a defense support to civil authorities mission. Master Sergeant Gonzalez has supported First Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years in direct response to the Secretary of Defense, INDO -PACOM, MARFOR -PAC, and IMEF. Boy, that's a lot of acronyms. Top, welcome to the show. Great to link up, Ryan. It's been a while. Far, far too long. The last time we worked together, we were lamenting the state of civil information management in both the Marine Corps and the Army because we saw the potential there to help us achieve strategic objectives that are often tied to the civil population.00:02:03 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, I can only speak for the Marine Corps. And then, you know, because you were with McTog at the time and then you had a leg inside, I think it was 351st KCOM. So that's what always made the conversation interesting. So you could just step into both worlds and say, this is what I'm learning on the USA, CA side. Conversely, this is what McTog is doing it. And really what it came down to was the commander's perspective.00:02:25 BRIAN HANCOCKAbsolutely. I am very grateful to the Marine Corps for the opportunity to learn, you know, both from professionals such as yourself, as well as from some of your schools, like the Civil Military Operations Planners course back in Quantica. Amazingly good. I'm really excited to have you here today because you're going to give us a much -needed additional perspective and thought on some of these challenges that we're wrestling with, frankly, all over the world.00:02:55 ANDREW GONZALEZ You and I had first connected, and all throughout that time, numbers are shrinking, toker shrinking, and we're like, where's value? And that came into our initial dialogues with civil information management, thinking that, hey, we could probably get some traction with this, but ultimately, it took several years, but then... I call it the great IF Sauron, right? The DOD looked west and said, hey, Indo -PACOM, this is the simple problem. But I just felt like when it came to developing relationships with the host nation, that's a given. We're going to be placed inside the host nation. But what's the commander's perception? And that's where I want to kind of pick up the conversation due to the fact that that has changed. And now it's coming down to IMF landing general saying, what I witnessed in Vallarta 1024. With respect to the civil affairs engagement in theater, I want more of it. I want more cowbell. And that's what we're going to deliver it in Balakatan 25. With the planning that's going on right now after the initial planning conference that I just got back from, I asked for it. And without hesitation, the Armed Forces of the Philippines, G7, responded with, we are going to give you civil affairs teams. So it's just a much more open, much more inclusive, much more inviting environment when it comes to the civil picture.00:04:08 BRIAN HANCOCKThat's fantastic. In 351, a number of years ago, I was involved in Balakatan. And previously, when I was in the SIOP demand, now military information support and operations, we participated there. And it was not easy, and it was not friendly, and it was not open like that. And it was really just an opportunity to send some of our service members who spoke to Gallic to go on over there. There was some increase in capability of the Philippine Defense Force, but they were still very much struggling against Abu Sayyaf and MNLC and these other terrorist organizations that were operating at the Holo Archipelago. It was just a really rough time. So it's fantastic to hear that years later, fast forward now, and we have a much stronger relationship, a much more effective relationship, a stronger partnership. We're talking about reopening some of our military bases there. We've lost some of those bases years ago, which allows China certainly to say, OK, if you only got one major port where you can do roll on, roll off operations, boy, we know where to set up our ISR and target. Right. So the strength of that relationship and the work that you're doing out there, I think, is really important. I'm glad to hear how it's progressed.00:05:19 ANDREW GONZALEZ I have a couple of relationships with 351st KCOM 3Shot. So maybe sometime after the podcast, we'll reconnect and talk through. Some of the collaboration, because it's been a while since I've talked with them. But during the initial planning conference, I reached into USRPAC to say, hey, we would really, really appreciate some USACA flavor. And the response was, what do we need to do? I said, can you put me in touch with 350 first? And it happened that day.00:05:46 BRIAN HANCOCKWhile you reconnect there, make sure our 38 golf program with all of those PhD level experts and everything from medicine to engineering, that is really taking off. 38 golf, got it. Yes, that MOS within the functioning specialty team constructs that we have in the Army is delivering incredible value. For instance, in our region, they recently did the NATO 7 resiliency studies of other areas, which is things we should be working in competition, and food resiliency within Medova and other areas. These things are such quality, they're being published in Military Review. And right now, the iron is hot because they're still trying to figure out... How do you utilize those 38 golfs and functional specialty teams? So make sure as we partner with you in the ground combat element in the core that we're fully utilizing some of those capabilities I think would add a lot of value to those of you who are doing planning on the Mew and doing assessments.00:06:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, it's very easy to say things like 1CA, okay? It's the people. It's individuals that see and understand that given the tyranny of distance, there's lots of things, right? Like expeditionary. advanced -based operations. And just that there's no possible way that one service couldn't cover all that distance and cover down on all of those requirements. So the bottom line is we have so much to learn from one another. And I am definitely going to discuss that with 351st S3 Shop for sure.00:07:11 BRIAN HANCOCKFantastic. I really encouraged to hear that. And I know 351st will receive that well. Many of our listeners happen to be Army just because there's a little bit more civil affairs in the Army. The Marine Corps is a little bit smaller force. Let's level the table a little bit, help them understand some of the Marine Corps civil affairs structure. For instance, in the Army civil affairs, this is a non -accession branch, certainly for officers it is. But here's the thing, both officers and NCOs, once they get the MOS, can spend their entire careers in civil affairs. And the way the pyramid is built out, there's plenty of room and plenty of slots for promotion. So it's very realistic that you can be awarded. a 38 MOS in the Army, and then that's it. That's what you'll be doing for the next 15 plus years or however long you go until you choose to retire. Now, I understand the Marine Corps, it's not like that. Can you elaborate a little bit on how that process is for Marines?00:08:11 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, you're 100 % right with respect to officers. Once you get to E -8 and E -9 in the Marine Corps, you suddenly start to see how difficult it is for the O -4 and above. to get to kernel. And it is incredibly competitive. So what's also happening is the 17XX migration. But that came out of not just consolidating MISO and Comstrat and SIOP and civil affairs all under one MOS branch. And some space operations in there too, I recall. It's what's required, right? In order for us to work through any kind of distributed operations, we're going to have to rely on space substantially. Yes. But these changes are happening at the headquarters Marine Corps level where 17XX will now give officers a career path. Nice. In 17XX. And this is where you and I were having conversations about what does that mean for Reserve CA? Are we going to be completely replaced, supplanted, marginalized?00:09:10 BRIAN HANCOCKRight.00:09:10 ANDREW GONZALEZ And in the end. From 21 to 24, we learned that even though our schoolhouse got completely consumed with consolidating the MISO, the PSYOP, the Comstrat, the CA schools, all in one building, to teaching the entire 17XX curriculum.00:09:25 BRIAN HANCOCKIn fairness, the Marine Corps has done some massive changes, at least relative to, say, the Army, which turns a little bit slower. Look at their entire divestiture of tanks under Commandant Berger. And the standing up of these Marine littoral regiments. uh brand new formations the very new equipment that they're looking at that's tied into very specific missions the marine corps is innovating across stop gulf pp very quickly it's impressive to see i popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs00:09:57 ANDREW GONZALEZ popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs And their concept of civil affairs employment wasn't so much about understanding the civil population. It was really just understanding that they're there. We're going to take this into consideration. But there was no real collaboration, if you will. But what they did was, as they reached out to requisition CA specifically, because they recognized that there was a little bit of a delta there. And they wanted to make sure that civil affairs had a seat at the planning table when it came to MLR and specifically overall combat team operations.00:10:36 BRIAN HANCOCKGood.00:10:36 ANDREW GONZALEZ It's a part of their training tasks. And that's the commander's perspective that I keep coming back to. If the commander sees value, if the commander sees a necessity, then it will happen. Marine Corps, Army, Navy doesn't make any difference.00:10:48 BRIAN HANCOCKmake any difference. So when you're referring to Marine Corps, civil affairs, I understand why we would say Navy, civil affairs. But the Navy itself organically had its own. civil affairs program. We'll talk about that later. They disbanded it. So I just want to make sure that the audience understands that when you're saying Navy civil affairs, you're still referring to United States Marine Corps civil affairs.00:11:09 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, but let's drill down on just one specific point. When it came down to BK -25, we reached out to the Naval Expeditionary Combat Command. And this is kind of analogous to your 38Gs in the USA. It's a very specific maritime focus for that commander. that says hey before i go into this littoral region with ships etc i'm not i need a really good evaluation of what's the host nation look like are they amenable and open to us being in the area yeah and then drilling down on that so we asked because they were clamoring to get involved in bk24 and immediately they responded with one of their maritime ca units great and then ideally we're going to do that in bk25 as well so i'm just trying to bring in the one ca mindset I really have to say it's not just lip service. Speaking about BK -25, Armed Forces of the Philippine CA is going to lend six teams. I see no reason why 351st CA leadership isn't going to lend at least one team, and I'm going to ask them for 38 calls. And then the Federation Combat Command will also be lending a Navy CA team. That's beautiful. I'll follow up with you, Brian, on how we were able to implement and share information and then inform the commander and see what the commander does.00:12:23 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, awesome. For those Marines who are listening to our podcast right now, who might consider making that kind of a lat move, what does a typical duty day look like for you, Top? How do you spend your time? What types of activities are you engaged in? What's that quality of life look like for someone else who might consider coming on over?00:12:46 ANDREW GONZALEZ Let's say that this is anybody but a 17XXer. This is not somebody that's coming from the Comstrat Meso -Syop community at all. Right.00:12:54 BRIAN HANCOCKInfantry, sure.00:12:56 ANDREW GONZALEZ The beauty of Marine Corps Civil Affairs is that we take all comers because we need people that know and understand and speak logistics, know and understand infantry tactics and training, know and understand intel, and then you've got the civility component. So what it looks like is a pretty standard drill to suit one, two entirely dark months. Now, one in the summer and then one in December because most people are traveling and taking time off. And then we typically drill on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'm just speaking about in September, it's going to be civil information management, which now we've got a very strong relationship with Marine Corps tactical support systems and software activity. Okay. So we're going to do some sim training. We're going to take a lot of the new joins and baseline them in MARSIMS, which is just like it sounds, Marine Corps civil information management. So with our Indopaycom and Southcom focused, What we're screening for is plasticity. We're screening for people that really want to take their existing skill set and apply it to the host nation. Because now we've got a really solid relationship with Indonesia and Malaysia. We're training side by side with their forces.00:14:03 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. And look at the opportunities there. I mean, like Oceania, we're concerned about geopolitical alignments and West versus, say, China and civil affairs. They're kind of our unit of action for competition in this regard. They're wanted there. They go out, they add value, they create relationships and help remind those Pacific Island nations, many of which came into the Western purview as a result of World War II, why we're the best partners to have. So that seems to me like it's a very critical function, not just in the Philippines, but in all of these areas.00:14:41 ANDREW GONZALEZ Correct. No, 100%. It's one of those relationships that you and I had first kind of talked about and that I took a chance to reach out was 9th MSC, which is just a support organization, but the Oceania engagement team, that was who they were supporting principally.00:14:57 BRIAN HANCOCKRight.00:14:58 ANDREW GONZALEZ So then you fast forward because that was the 2017 timeframe for me, even though that's a very persistent task on the part of the U .S. Army. U .S. RPAC has forces in the Second Island chain and has had. since 1947 right more than ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my00:15:14 BRIAN HANCOCKthan ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my credential, we were focused on civil military operations, which seems to resonate with Marines. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference between civil military operations and civil affairs operations and why the Marine Corps, CA elements, might be more focused on the latter?00:15:59 ANDREW GONZALEZ Beginning in October 2015, when I first joined civil affairs, I would regularly conflate civil affairs with the activity of civil military operations. civil affairs is force description. We're out there supporting civil -military relationships, civil -military planning, et cetera, et cetera. One thing is the who, and the other thing is the do. And I don't think, but I have to kind of turn the question back on you, Brian, is after I describe what we think constitutes civil -military operations, I think what you will find is there's more similar than dissimilar to civil affairs operations. I really feel like they are more analogous than not.00:16:35 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. I think the unit of action matters. Civil affairs operations have to be conducted by civil affairs forces, but civil military operations could be conducted by an infantry command. But I think they're achieving some similar purposes, and I think a number of the tasks are probably very similar.00:16:51 ANDREW GONZALEZ I agree, and that's a really interesting point. I just had that brief conversation with the Sergeant Major of 3rd MLR, and I said, Sergeant Major, we're at the tail end of EK -24, and so all their forces are out there distributed, and Sergeant Major's like, hey man, I've got an hour for you. Totally understand, Sergeant Major. If I could get your CONOPS, if I could find out what your commanding officer's guidance is with respect to employment of CA, and then tell me, this is the type of thing that we could help you in 25, all throughout FI -25. And he's like, hey, man, we're already ahead of you. We already did a request for forces, right? So, but the point I'm trying to make with that is, is their understanding of civil military in the LCTs, a very critical force enabler in the Marine Corps and throughout the DOD, because again, that's your asymmetric component, right? Those are the guys that are out there alone and unafraid, walking around with a ship killer. It's no small feat. But that commander was still like, you're involved in the planning. We do have good relationships with the host nation. But our mission can't be distracted by anything other than time -sensitive targets. And I'm being very, very reductive. But that was a sergeant major that was under pressure to literally get out the door so he'd get to the Philippines. But focus on the civil military operations component from commander to commander. And it's to the point where they want so much of our bandwidth that MFR is almost kind of pushing back. 1MF just keeps asking us for civil military operations support. Civ mil, civ mil, civ mil. But the bottom line is, at no other time have we been in such need to get people up to speed, take their existing specialty, and apply it to civil military operations planning. Much like what you're doing, what does the next generation of near peer, and we don't want it to get to combat. Yeah,00:18:32 BRIAN HANCOCKabsolutely.00:18:33 ANDREW GONZALEZ What does it look like for the host nation populations? within the second island chain within the first island chain yeah we're certainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can you elaborate on that you're talking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now00:18:39 BRIAN HANCOCKcertainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can00:18:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ you elaborate on that you're00:18:45 BRIAN HANCOCKtalking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now They come over and train, and they're met at the station, and they're given food, they're given water, they're given shelter. They help them find a longer -term place to be. They help them find work. It's a very, very serious situation. We understand what war crimes are. You're not supposed to blow up hospitals and schools and things like this, but Ukraine and the Russians are intentionally targeting them. They think they commit enough of these war crimes that they'll break the will of the people. You know, what we know historically, certainly when we're talking about large -scale bombing in World War II, that when you start doing these things, it actually has a reverse effect. It makes the people so angry that they double down on their commitment to fight you. So it's an ineffective strategy and blatantly immortal and unlawful. But that's the situation that is happening over there. Various elements are in talk with Ukrainian elements about... Depending on the different scenarios of how this ultimately plays out, there is going to be an enormous amount of work. There's going to be an enormous opportunity for civil military specialists to assist with the stabilization and rebuilding. And of course, through our CIMIC programs here in Europe, we are training a lot of Ukrainians and many other nations how to do these kinds of missions and to be prepared.00:20:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, there's so much of what we hear and what we're hearing are, you know, tactical successes on the forward element. And whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, you typically only hear Poland or Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, all the nations that share that border, and they're all on edge, which they should be. It's actually not a bad state to be in. You just don't want to be there chronically, right? Right. But the point is, it is amazing how much work Poland and the former states of the Soviet Union are doing and continue to do to give those people safe harbor. But just pivoting over to Indopaycom, the role of civil military operations.00:00:55 BRIAN HANCOCKBut just pivoting over to Indo -PACOM, the role of civil military operations. Once the balloon goes up, the areas where combat is actually going to be exploited to the degree that you can in northern Philippines and in the westernmost portion of Japan, because this has happened once before. The origins of Taiwan, when some of the existing peoples on the island were being displaced by Chiang Kai -shek, they headed to the westernmost portion of Japan. to these islands that had maybe 150 to 250 people on the entire island, but they're bringing in enough nourishment, enough fuel that they have homeostasis. What they have coming in and what they have going out, there's balance. And then you add 1 ,500 people that don't speak the language. That's just one tiny island in the westernmost portion of Japan's archipelago. I don't want to imagine it, but we have to. We should be forced to sit at a table and apply what we know. to people who know how to do it because nobody does HADR and nobody does complex emergency management like the Taiwanese. They do it every year, multiple times during a year. And the same goes for Japan. But who do it best are the Taiwanese. We have something to learn from them, honestly.00:02:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ I agree. Absolutely. And given that we have some great alliances and we work in joint combined environments, there's a lot of opportunity for cross -learning. Now, earlier we talked about Department of Navy civil affairs capabilities, and I just wanted to go back to that a little bit. Years ago, the Department of Navy had a separate and distinct civil affairs program from the Marine Corps civil affairs elements. Now, that program vested itself. It sounds like there's some emergent capability happening now. And of course, they retained their Marine Corps capability. With those forces being emergent, if the joint force needs something, say, a port assessment after a disaster, a system analysis of the economics of aquaculture in a given region, is that something Marine Corps civil affairs can provide? And if the Marine Corps civil affairs can't provide that maritime type expert level assessment, who should we be turning to for it as a force?00:03:19 BRIAN HANCOCKyou would reach out to the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, the NEC, without a doubt. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. This is the units in peacetime that deliver by far the most value, not even relative to the amount of money spent. Let's just take the monetary component out. The people who have a forward -leaning presence into the First Island chain are the Bs.00:03:42 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, CBs,00:03:43 BRIAN HANCOCKyeah. Yeah, the construction battalions. And so when it comes down to the naval, maritime -trained civil affairs, of which there's a very limited number, they're working hand -in -glove with the bees, with their Explosive Ordnance Bubbas, with their Expeditionary Security Force Bubbas, to say, hey, this is what you're going to encounter in this specific aspect of this specific island, right? Like, you're coming into this littoral region, this is what you can expect with expected depths, draft, and then the host nation population studies. They have that capability embedded in the neck. And so that's why we're really looking forward to working with them again in BK25. They love what we do and we love what they do. I can only imagine how when we did an innovative readiness training,00:04:22 ANDREW GONZALEZ how when we did an innovative readiness training, the native tribes in Alaska up there in Aleutians, many of the things that we found that could be done to help them, CBs could have done on the spot. Yeah. We had no capability. We had a planning and an assessment and analysis and a research capability. But that action arm that the bees offer, that would have been amazing to have. I see what you're saying. It makes perfect sense to me. It sounds like a fantastic marriage of capability moving forward. When I introduced you, you mentioned a couple of the big missions that you've been involved in. But Operation Air Resolve and Operation Allies Welcome. Can you just tell us a little bit about what those missions were? and what the role of the Corps was.00:05:16 BRIAN HANCOCKYep. So it was General Votel that was head of sync at the time. The portion that I want to hit you with is a success that really should never have been allowed. And that will make sense after I explain. Operation Enhanced Resolve winter into the spring of 2017. Mosul. It was a meat grinder for the Iraqi army because they're going house to house, door to door, booby traps. just a hellscape it's just getting crushed and so what was born out of that doctors without borders says we're not leaving but we need help and we never ask the dod ever because we don't want to be aligned with the dod right so picture this right so that message gets sent to oir command as oir receives this request for a conversation we just want to have a conversation to find out what if anything can be done Because everyone's hearing about the OBGYN that's wandering Western Iraq, trying to help women deliver babies, and then he gets decapitated, right? That's what you're dealing with. Medical professionals are targets, period. So fast forward, that happens at the beginning of my turn in mid -2017. We got all the way to a sit -down with the leadership of Doctors Without Borders, who flew in from New York, Belgium, and France. So five representatives come in and say, listen, you cannot divulge the fact that we are opening up direct line of communication to FOAR headquarters and our people on the ground. We ended up opening a line of communication. We got to the point where we actually tested it and it worked. Now, no assets were ever called for. We had a quick consult in the CJ39 with CENTCOM leadership, with USAID, and a member of General Hotel staff. And the question I was asked was, Who told you to bring Doctors Without Borders into the command headquarters to talk about a real -time tactical link? And I said, I was told by, you know, my leadership in the CJ39. So the point I'm trying to make with this is, please, please, please, your senior staff, your field grades, even a sergeant who's listening, who's applying themselves, doesn't make any difference. Ask the question. does hire no one understand what's going on? Because this got all the way to linking one radio with another, with a comm check. And General Votel, to my knowledge, did not have knowledge of it. His command, his staff did not have knowledge of the fact that that relationship had been enacted, had been moved. So I'm just saying things can get traction. You're thinking, wow, I'm doing the right thing, right? Like I am the humanitarian affairs deconfliction SNCOIC for CJTFOAR in phase three operations. This is the right thing to do so that we don't lose doctors. But honestly, it wasn't done the right way. I'm just letting people know that things can get momentum and their own inertia, but that doesn't mean that CONUS knows what's going on.00:08:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ Actually, I think an incredible success. As you said, Medicine Salts Franciard is an amazing organization. If they are actively being targeted and destroyed, as we've seen the Russians targeting their facilities in, say, Syria, they were using the Doctors Without Borders clinics. They're supposed to be protected under the law of war. They were using them as a targeting list, right? So that is unfortunately the reality of the adversaries we face. So I think it's a success story that there was enough adaptability shown by both parties to at least explore something. And having worked at four -star commands, I can also understand how difficult it is to reach senior decision makers. their ability to move at the speed of relevance, I would argue in many cases that they're just not capable of doing that, with some exceptions. This is one of the reasons why Secretary Mattis had a process he called skip echelon to tighten kilchines and other things to flow faster. But when you have an incident of that level of seriousness happening, in an area in blunt contact, in an austere region, everyone has to think out of the box a little bit. And then you add the five of war to that, right? So I certainly don't fault anyone involved in that. I think it is a great case study that should be talked about. I see that as the win. As a leader, sometimes making the wrong decision with alacrity is better than making no decision or waiting until it's irrelevant. In hindsight, it's very easy, I think, to look back at that. But thank you for sharing that amazing experience.00:10:00 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. One kind of final cherry on top is when individuals in the reserves think that they're not going to be confronted with gravity, real gravity, where civil affairs isn't always looked upon fondly, civil military operations support isn't always looked upon fondly, especially when you're tactical. And you have to raise your hand in a room full of meat eaters. And you say, this is the reason you don't want to hit. That ambulance that you see clearly displayed by an MQ -9 in the middle of nowhere is ISIS and their families are evacuating Mosul, right? And you're saying, yeah, you could very easily take out those 10 buses. But this is why you don't want to do that. And this is the people that you contact. That takes courage. And that's what we're looking for. That person who raises their hand on the jock floor and says, I see what your MQ -9 sees. All we need to do is contact the Red Cross. confirm that that's a legitimate Red Crescent vehicle that's going into harm's way because they have to know and understand that an armed MQ9 is circling those 10 buses. That's the kind of individual that we're looking for. And we don't care if they're NCOs or staff NCOs, a company grade or a field grade. They just have to have knowledge, confidence, the courage of their convictions. And sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies,00:11:15 ANDREW GONZALEZ sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies, but... pointing out the potential economic loss that can occur. We're talking about dropping all those bridges in Baghdad. The cost to rebuild those things is enormous. Do you really want to do strategic destruction of them and have to completely rebuild them? Or might a tactical destruction be more appropriate? And again, it was a civil affairs officer who had to stand up and point that distinction out when on the job they were just looking at demolishing. all of them to prevent retreating forces. So yes, that is a very important part. You have to have some moxie and be willing to stand in the face of power, which is a moment of truth. You have to be willing to do that to survive in this branch and thrive. So well said. I'd like to turn the conversation to something that's been on a number of minds in the civil affairs communities, a lot of debate. But a few years ago, the Department of Defense created the Office for Civil Harm Mitigation Response, or CHMR. Some of the civil affairs professionals in the communities have expressed a concern that this new body may actually be kind of taking over some of the traditional mission, as defined by General Winfried Scott, from civil affairs. What do you think?00:12:42 BRIAN HANCOCKI don't think. I really don't, based on not just the August 22 release of the structure. for CHMR, but then also the December 2023 OSD release, but it's saying you, component commander, right, saying commando, pick on mother, are going to have this as a lens when it comes down to your host nation relationships and also the employment of American designed, engineered, and released weapons. I don't think that this has as much to do with civil military operations as it does our prosecution of combat operations in a given combatant command. So the CHMR has less to do with civil military operations as I understand it. It has more to do with when it comes down to your concept of operations for how you are going to defend some portion of the first island chain or break and enter here or at the strategic level. that you are informing your operational commanders and your tactical execution with these as potential restraints, not constraints.00:13:48 ANDREW GONZALEZ And that only becomes more complicated. But look at a joint combined environment now where each individual host nation has a say on the employment of force because of ABO and other things. We saw in Bosnia that quickly became unwieldy. You couldn't do it because it started out with 50 targets on your targeting list. And by the time... every nation had pulled its picks off the list, you had about 15 targets left. So I think there's some complexity there. I am a little bit concerned in the way it's described as a lens, similar to Women, Peace, and Security, that's also kind of seen as a lens. The problem with that in a military organization is that we are action -oriented organizations. And if you do not have mission essential tasks, associated with something that then get rated, validated, and recorded in the USR process, it's probably not something you're going to do. How do you train to a lens? How do you validate a lens? How do you operationalize something like that? It has to be operational to truly be relevant to the military. Now, I know it's new. 2022 is not a long ago. I suspect they're still working through that. But I am concerned about the practical implementation of that.00:15:12 BRIAN HANCOCKSo it is new. It's so new that when I spoke to Major Weyland, he's dual -hatted as a reserve civil affairs bubba with RG9. His real -time job in the civilian world is USAID. I said, Weyland, can you please tell me what USAID's position is? Or what are they training to? How does this change the nature of AID and the DOD? And he's like, this is just too new. It's making its way into AID. And we're looking at the primary, secondary and tertiary impacts to relationships and how this is going to be perceived within the DoD. So it's very new. I did notice that there are pilot trainings that are going to be taking place for staff associated with the component commands. Attend the training, find out what this is about, see how this is going to impact your planning cycle. So, like I said, it's probably a good year to two years before we see something precipitate out. And I'm focusing on AID and DOD because that, to me, is kind of where the rubber meets the road because you've got a civilian agency that's tasked with coordinating with U .N. agencies, World Health Organization, World Food Program, but not limited to those people, UNOCHO and others.00:16:12 SPEAKER_00civilian agency00:16:19 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd now you're saying, OK, take the strategic, operational and tactical, that compression that I talked about. real -time information to be fed into this so that the commander has as much time and space, and we're talking about now instead of days, we're talking about hours, to make a decision on what ordinance gets dropped where and to what effect. And I'm asking you, do you think non -kinetic was as utilized in 2017 as it could have been?00:16:45 ANDREW GONZALEZ Definitely not. Right. And now looking at adding competition into the continuum in the range of military operations. where we're going to be the majority of the time. What's your rounds to fire in competition? Well, they're not lethal, right? Yep. Because except for some soft action against very select targets and some denied activities, it's not going to be acceptable to go in there and killing people and breaking things. Yep. That's not how you convince folks to come to your coalition. So absolutely, there's a lot of work to be done and we didn't do enough there. What we did do got criticized by Rand and others, at least in some cases. And some of that criticism was legitimate. So there's, I think, a lot more work that can be done there.00:17:33 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. And you, when it comes down to this multinational land component commander concept, I can't even begin to wrap my head around. My head was spinning, as you were describing, because it's just distributed operations. Right. Land -based, as opposed to maritime -based. It's the same problem set, like rail gauges. With a lot more people.00:17:50 ANDREW GONZALEZ With a lot more people. There aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.00:17:51 BRIAN HANCOCKThere aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.00:17:53 ANDREW GONZALEZ in the ocean when you're doing distributed maritime operations, right?00:17:56 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd if the balloon goes up, we do have limited ability while the air is uncontested and while the seas are uncontested to get civilians away.00:18:06 ANDREW GONZALEZ We have a few minutes left. I'd kind of like to close up by returning to some of the innovation that the Marine Corps has been doing in the last several years. You've talked a bit about the 17XX MOS. Some things we haven't talked as much about are the development and utilization of the Marine Expeditionary Force Information Groups, the MIGs, and the deployment of the Tactical Assault Kit. Can you tell the audience a little bit about those developments?00:18:35 BRIAN HANCOCKThe MIG is really focused on PSYOPs, Comstrat, and MISO. They're excellent at what they do. We do have some OneMeth integration between CA and Comstrat, obviously, for BK25 with respect to their narratives and our public affairs guidance that's going to be issued. And it's going to be very similar to BK24 from what I'm hearing. So again, we don't want to spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel on things we don't need to. Let's focus on the things that we really do need to. And that namely are the relationships and the things like tactical assault kit. So it sounds like it's an actual piece of gear, but it's not. It is a common tactical picture in the most reductive sense. But the bottom line is the reason that this is becoming so prolific throughout the DoD is because you can develop. a map support and a common tactical picture that can be fed up to feed a common operational picture very readily because it's very lightweight and it's OS agnostic. And so it's basically just taking over because it is so adaptable. And when it comes down to air component, land component, logistics component in the Marine Corps needing a specific tool set. to help manage information and get that information to the logistics commander. And then the logistics commander can inform the CJA commander. This is the way to do it. So I am asking everyone out there, go to the MCTESA website, Marine Corps Tactical Software Support Activity website. Log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division. And MCTESA has really gone to great lengths to host what's called TechTube. And what it is, is a series of YouTube videos on all of the software that the Marine Corps currently is fueling. All the systems of record and some of the systems that are not of record. Tactical Assault Kit is not currently a program of record, but we're, you know, high speed moving towards that to make it a program of record. So how civil affairs is planning to utilize this. And ideally we get our ducks in a row with respect to data because everybody and their mother wants Starlink. Right. You can only spread that so thin and reserves are not going to be at the top of any list when it comes down to. No. So we have to rely on in -country data, which is doable, but we have to just learning from BK24, we have to get enough data for a long enough period of time to support TAK. Even though it's lightweight, it's like anything else. It's a cell phone. We currently are outfitted with Galaxy S22s. That's how we conduct our KLEs. That's how we do our, you know, our engagements and do our site assessments. And it's all done on this handheld. And now ATAK, the Android version of TAK, Civ, as opposed to Mill, there's two flavors of TAK. Civilian is, you can just go to any download. You can go to the Android store, you can go to the Apple store, download your civilian variant of TAK, and immediately start using it. But if you want to know how to use it, whether it's the civilian or the military variant, just go to MCTISA, the website, you need a CAT card, log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division, and then drill down on the TechTube videos. And you can immediately see just how user -friendly this system is. And so our goal at EarthCAG is to make this an application alongside Martians. So it's already built into the image when we receive our Martians gear, our Galaxy S22s. So we're organizing some training with MCTISA. And this is one of those things where we want to be able to get the army in on this. We want to be able to get the armed forces of the Philippines. There's no constraints on using. the civilian variant of TAK with our host nation partners. So how do you want to know where your people are and what they're doing? This is how we're going to do it. That's how I plan to give our commander a common tactical picture and roll up the multinational joint civil affairs outreach and civil military operations employment in theater. That's how we're going to do it as VATAC.00:22:23 ANDREW GONZALEZ Well, you've convinced me. I am going to go take a look at that and I'm excited. Mictissa, here I come. I'm going to take a look at the tactical assault kit. Certainly working at the ASCC, if this looks good, I'll definitely be talking to some of my Army colleagues about that. Thank you for your time today, Top. I really appreciate it. Really appreciate everything you're doing as well as what your colleagues at First CAG have been doing. It's been a fantastic relationship and we're looking forward, I know, certainly at 351 and in other. civil affairs formation to working with you in the future.00:22:58 BRIAN HANCOCKRyan, thank you for leaning into the relationship. I don't know of too many others in the civil affairs community independent of service that have gone to the lengths that you have to bring in new ideas, to take some time to listen and learn from one another and actually get this to be applied because that's the only way that we're going to skin the cat.00:23:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ Well said. Thank you also to the audience for joining us for this session. And we'll be putting out some more content from the United States Marine Corps in future sessions.00:23:32 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field. working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations. Thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, 1CA Podcast.
-
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today, Brian Hancock talks with Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez about how the Marine Corps' modernization is shifting Civil Affairs' roles and duties in the force and how those changes impact their work in the Pacific.
MSgt Andrew Gonzalez joined the USMC-CA community in October 2015 as an E7. CA activations of note include OCT 2017 CJTF-OIR, clear and hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, DEC 2021 in support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, VA, a rare opportunity to support a Defense Support of Civil Authorities mission. MSgt Gonzalez was most recently activated in support of JTF-Red Hill, the safe and expedient refueling of the underground fuel storage facility on the island of Oahu. Allowed to meet with the Waianae Kupuna Council to discuss the transition from JTF-Red Hill leadership and mission to the Red Hill – Navy Closure Task Force.
MSgt Gonzalez has supported 1st Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years and continues to drive USA-USMC CA collaborative efforts, civil information management best practice, and USMC - Civil Military Operations training standards in direct response to OSD/INDOPACOM/MARFORPAC/IMEF demand for CA and Civic Action Team support.---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special Thanks to "Cool Jazz Hot Bossa" for the sample of Energy Jazz Music Playlist - Jazz Instrumental Upbeat - High Energy Jazz Music Mix. Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/bdWUj2NYDYQ?si=_bLf2fdTw6Ba93oh
---
Transcript
00:00:04 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:40 BRIAN HANCOCKWelcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez to discuss United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs, Civil Information Management, and civil harm mitigation and response. Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez joined the United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs community in October 2015 as an E -7. Civil Affairs activations of note include Combined Joint Task Force, Operation Inherent Resolve, Clear and Hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, Support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, Virginia, which was a rare opportunity to support a defense support to civil authorities mission. Master Sergeant Gonzalez has supported First Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years in direct response to the Secretary of Defense, INDO -PACOM, MARFOR -PAC, and IMEF. Boy, that's a lot of acronyms. Top, welcome to the show. Great to link up, Ryan. It's been a while. Far, far too long. The last time we worked together, we were lamenting the state of civil information management in both the Marine Corps and the Army because we saw the potential there to help us achieve strategic objectives that are often tied to the civil population.00:02:03 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, I can only speak for the Marine Corps. And then, you know, because you were with McTog at the time and then you had a leg inside, I think it was 351st KCOM. So that's what always made the conversation interesting. So you could just step into both worlds and say, this is what I'm learning on the USA, CA side. Conversely, this is what McTog is doing it. And really what it came down to was the commander's perspective.00:02:25 BRIAN HANCOCKAbsolutely. I am very grateful to the Marine Corps for the opportunity to learn, you know, both from professionals such as yourself, as well as from some of your schools, like the Civil Military Operations Planners course back in Quantica. Amazingly good. I'm really excited to have you here today because you're going to give us a much -needed additional perspective and thought on some of these challenges that we're wrestling with, frankly, all over the world.00:02:55 ANDREW GONZALEZ You and I had first connected, and all throughout that time, numbers are shrinking, toker shrinking, and we're like, where's value? And that came into our initial dialogues with civil information management, thinking that, hey, we could probably get some traction with this, but ultimately, it took several years, but then... I call it the great IF Sauron, right? The DOD looked west and said, hey, Indo -PACOM, this is the simple problem. But I just felt like when it came to developing relationships with the host nation, that's a given. We're going to be placed inside the host nation. But what's the commander's perception? And that's where I want to kind of pick up the conversation due to the fact that that has changed. And now it's coming down to IMF landing general saying, what I witnessed in Vallarta 1024. With respect to the civil affairs engagement in theater, I want more of it. I want more cowbell. And that's what we're going to deliver it in Balakatan 25. With the planning that's going on right now after the initial planning conference that I just got back from, I asked for it. And without hesitation, the Armed Forces of the Philippines, G7, responded with, we are going to give you civil affairs teams. So it's just a much more open, much more inclusive, much more inviting environment when it comes to the civil picture.00:04:08 BRIAN HANCOCKThat's fantastic. In 351, a number of years ago, I was involved in Balakatan. And previously, when I was in the SIOP demand, now military information support and operations, we participated there. And it was not easy, and it was not friendly, and it was not open like that. And it was really just an opportunity to send some of our service members who spoke to Gallic to go on over there. There was some increase in capability of the Philippine Defense Force, but they were still very much struggling against Abu Sayyaf and MNLC and these other terrorist organizations that were operating at the Holo Archipelago. It was just a really rough time. So it's fantastic to hear that years later, fast forward now, and we have a much stronger relationship, a much more effective relationship, a stronger partnership. We're talking about reopening some of our military bases there. We've lost some of those bases years ago, which allows China certainly to say, OK, if you only got one major port where you can do roll on, roll off operations, boy, we know where to set up our ISR and target. Right. So the strength of that relationship and the work that you're doing out there, I think, is really important. I'm glad to hear how it's progressed.00:05:19 ANDREW GONZALEZ I have a couple of relationships with 351st KCOM 3Shot. So maybe sometime after the podcast, we'll reconnect and talk through. Some of the collaboration, because it's been a while since I've talked with them. But during the initial planning conference, I reached into USRPAC to say, hey, we would really, really appreciate some USACA flavor. And the response was, what do we need to do? I said, can you put me in touch with 350 first? And it happened that day.00:05:46 BRIAN HANCOCKWhile you reconnect there, make sure our 38 golf program with all of those PhD level experts and everything from medicine to engineering, that is really taking off. 38 golf, got it. Yes, that MOS within the functioning specialty team constructs that we have in the Army is delivering incredible value. For instance, in our region, they recently did the NATO 7 resiliency studies of other areas, which is things we should be working in competition, and food resiliency within Medova and other areas. These things are such quality, they're being published in Military Review. And right now, the iron is hot because they're still trying to figure out... How do you utilize those 38 golfs and functional specialty teams? So make sure as we partner with you in the ground combat element in the core that we're fully utilizing some of those capabilities I think would add a lot of value to those of you who are doing planning on the Mew and doing assessments.00:06:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, it's very easy to say things like 1CA, okay? It's the people. It's individuals that see and understand that given the tyranny of distance, there's lots of things, right? Like expeditionary. advanced -based operations. And just that there's no possible way that one service couldn't cover all that distance and cover down on all of those requirements. So the bottom line is we have so much to learn from one another. And I am definitely going to discuss that with 351st S3 Shop for sure.00:07:11 BRIAN HANCOCKFantastic. I really encouraged to hear that. And I know 351st will receive that well. Many of our listeners happen to be Army just because there's a little bit more civil affairs in the Army. The Marine Corps is a little bit smaller force. Let's level the table a little bit, help them understand some of the Marine Corps civil affairs structure. For instance, in the Army civil affairs, this is a non -accession branch, certainly for officers it is. But here's the thing, both officers and NCOs, once they get the MOS, can spend their entire careers in civil affairs. And the way the pyramid is built out, there's plenty of room and plenty of slots for promotion. So it's very realistic that you can be awarded. a 38 MOS in the Army, and then that's it. That's what you'll be doing for the next 15 plus years or however long you go until you choose to retire. Now, I understand the Marine Corps, it's not like that. Can you elaborate a little bit on how that process is for Marines?00:08:11 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, you're 100 % right with respect to officers. Once you get to E -8 and E -9 in the Marine Corps, you suddenly start to see how difficult it is for the O -4 and above. to get to kernel. And it is incredibly competitive. So what's also happening is the 17XX migration. But that came out of not just consolidating MISO and Comstrat and SIOP and civil affairs all under one MOS branch. And some space operations in there too, I recall. It's what's required, right? In order for us to work through any kind of distributed operations, we're going to have to rely on space substantially. Yes. But these changes are happening at the headquarters Marine Corps level where 17XX will now give officers a career path. Nice. In 17XX. And this is where you and I were having conversations about what does that mean for Reserve CA? Are we going to be completely replaced, supplanted, marginalized?00:09:10 BRIAN HANCOCKRight.00:09:10 ANDREW GONZALEZ And in the end. From 21 to 24, we learned that even though our schoolhouse got completely consumed with consolidating the MISO, the PSYOP, the Comstrat, the CA schools, all in one building, to teaching the entire 17XX curriculum.00:09:25 BRIAN HANCOCKIn fairness, the Marine Corps has done some massive changes, at least relative to, say, the Army, which turns a little bit slower. Look at their entire divestiture of tanks under Commandant Berger. And the standing up of these Marine littoral regiments. uh brand new formations the very new equipment that they're looking at that's tied into very specific missions the marine corps is innovating across stop gulf pp very quickly it's impressive to see i popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs00:09:57 ANDREW GONZALEZ popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs And their concept of civil affairs employment wasn't so much about understanding the civil population. It was really just understanding that they're there. We're going to take this into consideration. But there was no real collaboration, if you will. But what they did was, as they reached out to requisition CA specifically, because they recognized that there was a little bit of a delta there. And they wanted to make sure that civil affairs had a seat at the planning table when it came to MLR and specifically overall combat team operations.00:10:36 BRIAN HANCOCKGood.00:10:36 ANDREW GONZALEZ It's a part of their training tasks. And that's the commander's perspective that I keep coming back to. If the commander sees value, if the commander sees a necessity, then it will happen. Marine Corps, Army, Navy doesn't make any difference.00:10:48 BRIAN HANCOCKmake any difference. So when you're referring to Marine Corps, civil affairs, I understand why we would say Navy, civil affairs. But the Navy itself organically had its own. civil affairs program. We'll talk about that later. They disbanded it. So I just want to make sure that the audience understands that when you're saying Navy civil affairs, you're still referring to United States Marine Corps civil affairs.00:11:09 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, but let's drill down on just one specific point. When it came down to BK -25, we reached out to the Naval Expeditionary Combat Command. And this is kind of analogous to your 38Gs in the USA. It's a very specific maritime focus for that commander. that says hey before i go into this littoral region with ships etc i'm not i need a really good evaluation of what's the host nation look like are they amenable and open to us being in the area yeah and then drilling down on that so we asked because they were clamoring to get involved in bk24 and immediately they responded with one of their maritime ca units great and then ideally we're going to do that in bk25 as well so i'm just trying to bring in the one ca mindset I really have to say it's not just lip service. Speaking about BK -25, Armed Forces of the Philippine CA is going to lend six teams. I see no reason why 351st CA leadership isn't going to lend at least one team, and I'm going to ask them for 38 calls. And then the Federation Combat Command will also be lending a Navy CA team. That's beautiful. I'll follow up with you, Brian, on how we were able to implement and share information and then inform the commander and see what the commander does.00:12:23 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, awesome. For those Marines who are listening to our podcast right now, who might consider making that kind of a lat move, what does a typical duty day look like for you, Top? How do you spend your time? What types of activities are you engaged in? What's that quality of life look like for someone else who might consider coming on over?00:12:46 ANDREW GONZALEZ Let's say that this is anybody but a 17XXer. This is not somebody that's coming from the Comstrat Meso -Syop community at all. Right.00:12:54 BRIAN HANCOCKInfantry, sure.00:12:56 ANDREW GONZALEZ The beauty of Marine Corps Civil Affairs is that we take all comers because we need people that know and understand and speak logistics, know and understand infantry tactics and training, know and understand intel, and then you've got the civility component. So what it looks like is a pretty standard drill to suit one, two entirely dark months. Now, one in the summer and then one in December because most people are traveling and taking time off. And then we typically drill on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'm just speaking about in September, it's going to be civil information management, which now we've got a very strong relationship with Marine Corps tactical support systems and software activity. Okay. So we're going to do some sim training. We're going to take a lot of the new joins and baseline them in MARSIMS, which is just like it sounds, Marine Corps civil information management. So with our Indopaycom and Southcom focused, What we're screening for is plasticity. We're screening for people that really want to take their existing skill set and apply it to the host nation. Because now we've got a really solid relationship with Indonesia and Malaysia. We're training side by side with their forces.00:14:03 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. And look at the opportunities there. I mean, like Oceania, we're concerned about geopolitical alignments and West versus, say, China and civil affairs. They're kind of our unit of action for competition in this regard. They're wanted there. They go out, they add value, they create relationships and help remind those Pacific Island nations, many of which came into the Western purview as a result of World War II, why we're the best partners to have. So that seems to me like it's a very critical function, not just in the Philippines, but in all of these areas.00:14:41 ANDREW GONZALEZ Correct. No, 100%. It's one of those relationships that you and I had first kind of talked about and that I took a chance to reach out was 9th MSC, which is just a support organization, but the Oceania engagement team, that was who they were supporting principally.00:14:57 BRIAN HANCOCKRight.00:14:58 ANDREW GONZALEZ So then you fast forward because that was the 2017 timeframe for me, even though that's a very persistent task on the part of the U .S. Army. U .S. RPAC has forces in the Second Island chain and has had. since 1947 right more than ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my00:15:14 BRIAN HANCOCKthan ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my credential, we were focused on civil military operations, which seems to resonate with Marines. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference between civil military operations and civil affairs operations and why the Marine Corps, CA elements, might be more focused on the latter?00:15:59 ANDREW GONZALEZ Beginning in October 2015, when I first joined civil affairs, I would regularly conflate civil affairs with the activity of civil military operations. civil affairs is force description. We're out there supporting civil -military relationships, civil -military planning, et cetera, et cetera. One thing is the who, and the other thing is the do. And I don't think, but I have to kind of turn the question back on you, Brian, is after I describe what we think constitutes civil -military operations, I think what you will find is there's more similar than dissimilar to civil affairs operations. I really feel like they are more analogous than not.00:16:35 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. I think the unit of action matters. Civil affairs operations have to be conducted by civil affairs forces, but civil military operations could be conducted by an infantry command. But I think they're achieving some similar purposes, and I think a number of the tasks are probably very similar.00:16:51 ANDREW GONZALEZ I agree, and that's a really interesting point. I just had that brief conversation with the Sergeant Major of 3rd MLR, and I said, Sergeant Major, we're at the tail end of EK -24, and so all their forces are out there distributed, and Sergeant Major's like, hey man, I've got an hour for you. Totally understand, Sergeant Major. If I could get your CONOPS, if I could find out what your commanding officer's guidance is with respect to employment of CA, and then tell me, this is the type of thing that we could help you in 25, all throughout FI -25. And he's like, hey, man, we're already ahead of you. We already did a request for forces, right? So, but the point I'm trying to make with that is, is their understanding of civil military in the LCTs, a very critical force enabler in the Marine Corps and throughout the DOD, because again, that's your asymmetric component, right? Those are the guys that are out there alone and unafraid, walking around with a ship killer. It's no small feat. But that commander was still like, you're involved in the planning. We do have good relationships with the host nation. But our mission can't be distracted by anything other than time -sensitive targets. And I'm being very, very reductive. But that was a sergeant major that was under pressure to literally get out the door so he'd get to the Philippines. But focus on the civil military operations component from commander to commander. And it's to the point where they want so much of our bandwidth that MFR is almost kind of pushing back. 1MF just keeps asking us for civil military operations support. Civ mil, civ mil, civ mil. But the bottom line is, at no other time have we been in such need to get people up to speed, take their existing specialty, and apply it to civil military operations planning. Much like what you're doing, what does the next generation of near peer, and we don't want it to get to combat. Yeah,00:18:32 BRIAN HANCOCKabsolutely.00:18:33 ANDREW GONZALEZ What does it look like for the host nation populations? within the second island chain within the first island chain yeah we're certainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can you elaborate on that you're talking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now00:18:39 BRIAN HANCOCKcertainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can00:18:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ you elaborate on that you're00:18:45 BRIAN HANCOCKtalking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now They come over and train, and they're met at the station, and they're given food, they're given water, they're given shelter. They help them find a longer -term place to be. They help them find work. It's a very, very serious situation. We understand what war crimes are. You're not supposed to blow up hospitals and schools and things like this, but Ukraine and the Russians are intentionally targeting them. They think they commit enough of these war crimes that they'll break the will of the people. You know, what we know historically, certainly when we're talking about large -scale bombing in World War II, that when you start doing these things, it actually has a reverse effect. It makes the people so angry that they double down on their commitment to fight you. So it's an ineffective strategy and blatantly immortal and unlawful. But that's the situation that is happening over there. Various elements are in talk with Ukrainian elements about... Depending on the different scenarios of how this ultimately plays out, there is going to be an enormous amount of work. There's going to be an enormous opportunity for civil military specialists to assist with the stabilization and rebuilding. And of course, through our CIMIC programs here in Europe, we are training a lot of Ukrainians and many other nations how to do these kinds of missions and to be prepared.00:20:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, there's so much of what we hear and what we're hearing are, you know, tactical successes on the forward element. And whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, you typically only hear Poland or Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, all the nations that share that border, and they're all on edge, which they should be. It's actually not a bad state to be in. You just don't want to be there chronically, right? Right. But the point is, it is amazing how much work Poland and the former states of the Soviet Union are doing and continue to do to give those people safe harbor. But just pivoting over to Indopaycom, the role of civil military operations.00:00:55 BRIAN HANCOCKBut just pivoting over to Indo -PACOM, the role of civil military operations. Once the balloon goes up, the areas where combat is actually going to be exploited to the degree that you can in northern Philippines and in the westernmost portion of Japan, because this has happened once before. The origins of Taiwan, when some of the existing peoples on the island were being displaced by Chiang Kai -shek, they headed to the westernmost portion of Japan. to these islands that had maybe 150 to 250 people on the entire island, but they're bringing in enough nourishment, enough fuel that they have homeostasis. What they have coming in and what they have going out, there's balance. And then you add 1 ,500 people that don't speak the language. That's just one tiny island in the westernmost portion of Japan's archipelago. I don't want to imagine it, but we have to. We should be forced to sit at a table and apply what we know. to people who know how to do it because nobody does HADR and nobody does complex emergency management like the Taiwanese. They do it every year, multiple times during a year. And the same goes for Japan. But who do it best are the Taiwanese. We have something to learn from them, honestly.00:02:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ I agree. Absolutely. And given that we have some great alliances and we work in joint combined environments, there's a lot of opportunity for cross -learning. Now, earlier we talked about Department of Navy civil affairs capabilities, and I just wanted to go back to that a little bit. Years ago, the Department of Navy had a separate and distinct civil affairs program from the Marine Corps civil affairs elements. Now, that program vested itself. It sounds like there's some emergent capability happening now. And of course, they retained their Marine Corps capability. With those forces being emergent, if the joint force needs something, say, a port assessment after a disaster, a system analysis of the economics of aquaculture in a given region, is that something Marine Corps civil affairs can provide? And if the Marine Corps civil affairs can't provide that maritime type expert level assessment, who should we be turning to for it as a force?00:03:19 BRIAN HANCOCKyou would reach out to the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, the NEC, without a doubt. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. This is the units in peacetime that deliver by far the most value, not even relative to the amount of money spent. Let's just take the monetary component out. The people who have a forward -leaning presence into the First Island chain are the Bs.00:03:42 ANDREW GONZALEZ Yeah, CBs,00:03:43 BRIAN HANCOCKyeah. Yeah, the construction battalions. And so when it comes down to the naval, maritime -trained civil affairs, of which there's a very limited number, they're working hand -in -glove with the bees, with their Explosive Ordnance Bubbas, with their Expeditionary Security Force Bubbas, to say, hey, this is what you're going to encounter in this specific aspect of this specific island, right? Like, you're coming into this littoral region, this is what you can expect with expected depths, draft, and then the host nation population studies. They have that capability embedded in the neck. And so that's why we're really looking forward to working with them again in BK25. They love what we do and we love what they do. I can only imagine how when we did an innovative readiness training,00:04:22 ANDREW GONZALEZ how when we did an innovative readiness training, the native tribes in Alaska up there in Aleutians, many of the things that we found that could be done to help them, CBs could have done on the spot. Yeah. We had no capability. We had a planning and an assessment and analysis and a research capability. But that action arm that the bees offer, that would have been amazing to have. I see what you're saying. It makes perfect sense to me. It sounds like a fantastic marriage of capability moving forward. When I introduced you, you mentioned a couple of the big missions that you've been involved in. But Operation Air Resolve and Operation Allies Welcome. Can you just tell us a little bit about what those missions were? and what the role of the Corps was.00:05:16 BRIAN HANCOCKYep. So it was General Votel that was head of sync at the time. The portion that I want to hit you with is a success that really should never have been allowed. And that will make sense after I explain. Operation Enhanced Resolve winter into the spring of 2017. Mosul. It was a meat grinder for the Iraqi army because they're going house to house, door to door, booby traps. just a hellscape it's just getting crushed and so what was born out of that doctors without borders says we're not leaving but we need help and we never ask the dod ever because we don't want to be aligned with the dod right so picture this right so that message gets sent to oir command as oir receives this request for a conversation we just want to have a conversation to find out what if anything can be done Because everyone's hearing about the OBGYN that's wandering Western Iraq, trying to help women deliver babies, and then he gets decapitated, right? That's what you're dealing with. Medical professionals are targets, period. So fast forward, that happens at the beginning of my turn in mid -2017. We got all the way to a sit -down with the leadership of Doctors Without Borders, who flew in from New York, Belgium, and France. So five representatives come in and say, listen, you cannot divulge the fact that we are opening up direct line of communication to FOAR headquarters and our people on the ground. We ended up opening a line of communication. We got to the point where we actually tested it and it worked. Now, no assets were ever called for. We had a quick consult in the CJ39 with CENTCOM leadership, with USAID, and a member of General Hotel staff. And the question I was asked was, Who told you to bring Doctors Without Borders into the command headquarters to talk about a real -time tactical link? And I said, I was told by, you know, my leadership in the CJ39. So the point I'm trying to make with this is, please, please, please, your senior staff, your field grades, even a sergeant who's listening, who's applying themselves, doesn't make any difference. Ask the question. does hire no one understand what's going on? Because this got all the way to linking one radio with another, with a comm check. And General Votel, to my knowledge, did not have knowledge of it. His command, his staff did not have knowledge of the fact that that relationship had been enacted, had been moved. So I'm just saying things can get traction. You're thinking, wow, I'm doing the right thing, right? Like I am the humanitarian affairs deconfliction SNCOIC for CJTFOAR in phase three operations. This is the right thing to do so that we don't lose doctors. But honestly, it wasn't done the right way. I'm just letting people know that things can get momentum and their own inertia, but that doesn't mean that CONUS knows what's going on.00:08:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ Actually, I think an incredible success. As you said, Medicine Salts Franciard is an amazing organization. If they are actively being targeted and destroyed, as we've seen the Russians targeting their facilities in, say, Syria, they were using the Doctors Without Borders clinics. They're supposed to be protected under the law of war. They were using them as a targeting list, right? So that is unfortunately the reality of the adversaries we face. So I think it's a success story that there was enough adaptability shown by both parties to at least explore something. And having worked at four -star commands, I can also understand how difficult it is to reach senior decision makers. their ability to move at the speed of relevance, I would argue in many cases that they're just not capable of doing that, with some exceptions. This is one of the reasons why Secretary Mattis had a process he called skip echelon to tighten kilchines and other things to flow faster. But when you have an incident of that level of seriousness happening, in an area in blunt contact, in an austere region, everyone has to think out of the box a little bit. And then you add the five of war to that, right? So I certainly don't fault anyone involved in that. I think it is a great case study that should be talked about. I see that as the win. As a leader, sometimes making the wrong decision with alacrity is better than making no decision or waiting until it's irrelevant. In hindsight, it's very easy, I think, to look back at that. But thank you for sharing that amazing experience.00:10:00 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. One kind of final cherry on top is when individuals in the reserves think that they're not going to be confronted with gravity, real gravity, where civil affairs isn't always looked upon fondly, civil military operations support isn't always looked upon fondly, especially when you're tactical. And you have to raise your hand in a room full of meat eaters. And you say, this is the reason you don't want to hit. That ambulance that you see clearly displayed by an MQ -9 in the middle of nowhere is ISIS and their families are evacuating Mosul, right? And you're saying, yeah, you could very easily take out those 10 buses. But this is why you don't want to do that. And this is the people that you contact. That takes courage. And that's what we're looking for. That person who raises their hand on the jock floor and says, I see what your MQ -9 sees. All we need to do is contact the Red Cross. confirm that that's a legitimate Red Crescent vehicle that's going into harm's way because they have to know and understand that an armed MQ9 is circling those 10 buses. That's the kind of individual that we're looking for. And we don't care if they're NCOs or staff NCOs, a company grade or a field grade. They just have to have knowledge, confidence, the courage of their convictions. And sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies,00:11:15 ANDREW GONZALEZ sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies, but... pointing out the potential economic loss that can occur. We're talking about dropping all those bridges in Baghdad. The cost to rebuild those things is enormous. Do you really want to do strategic destruction of them and have to completely rebuild them? Or might a tactical destruction be more appropriate? And again, it was a civil affairs officer who had to stand up and point that distinction out when on the job they were just looking at demolishing. all of them to prevent retreating forces. So yes, that is a very important part. You have to have some moxie and be willing to stand in the face of power, which is a moment of truth. You have to be willing to do that to survive in this branch and thrive. So well said. I'd like to turn the conversation to something that's been on a number of minds in the civil affairs communities, a lot of debate. But a few years ago, the Department of Defense created the Office for Civil Harm Mitigation Response, or CHMR. Some of the civil affairs professionals in the communities have expressed a concern that this new body may actually be kind of taking over some of the traditional mission, as defined by General Winfried Scott, from civil affairs. What do you think?00:12:42 BRIAN HANCOCKI don't think. I really don't, based on not just the August 22 release of the structure. for CHMR, but then also the December 2023 OSD release, but it's saying you, component commander, right, saying commando, pick on mother, are going to have this as a lens when it comes down to your host nation relationships and also the employment of American designed, engineered, and released weapons. I don't think that this has as much to do with civil military operations as it does our prosecution of combat operations in a given combatant command. So the CHMR has less to do with civil military operations as I understand it. It has more to do with when it comes down to your concept of operations for how you are going to defend some portion of the first island chain or break and enter here or at the strategic level. that you are informing your operational commanders and your tactical execution with these as potential restraints, not constraints.00:13:48 ANDREW GONZALEZ And that only becomes more complicated. But look at a joint combined environment now where each individual host nation has a say on the employment of force because of ABO and other things. We saw in Bosnia that quickly became unwieldy. You couldn't do it because it started out with 50 targets on your targeting list. And by the time... every nation had pulled its picks off the list, you had about 15 targets left. So I think there's some complexity there. I am a little bit concerned in the way it's described as a lens, similar to Women, Peace, and Security, that's also kind of seen as a lens. The problem with that in a military organization is that we are action -oriented organizations. And if you do not have mission essential tasks, associated with something that then get rated, validated, and recorded in the USR process, it's probably not something you're going to do. How do you train to a lens? How do you validate a lens? How do you operationalize something like that? It has to be operational to truly be relevant to the military. Now, I know it's new. 2022 is not a long ago. I suspect they're still working through that. But I am concerned about the practical implementation of that.00:15:12 BRIAN HANCOCKSo it is new. It's so new that when I spoke to Major Weyland, he's dual -hatted as a reserve civil affairs bubba with RG9. His real -time job in the civilian world is USAID. I said, Weyland, can you please tell me what USAID's position is? Or what are they training to? How does this change the nature of AID and the DOD? And he's like, this is just too new. It's making its way into AID. And we're looking at the primary, secondary and tertiary impacts to relationships and how this is going to be perceived within the DoD. So it's very new. I did notice that there are pilot trainings that are going to be taking place for staff associated with the component commands. Attend the training, find out what this is about, see how this is going to impact your planning cycle. So, like I said, it's probably a good year to two years before we see something precipitate out. And I'm focusing on AID and DOD because that, to me, is kind of where the rubber meets the road because you've got a civilian agency that's tasked with coordinating with U .N. agencies, World Health Organization, World Food Program, but not limited to those people, UNOCHO and others.00:16:12 SPEAKER_00civilian agency00:16:19 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd now you're saying, OK, take the strategic, operational and tactical, that compression that I talked about. real -time information to be fed into this so that the commander has as much time and space, and we're talking about now instead of days, we're talking about hours, to make a decision on what ordinance gets dropped where and to what effect. And I'm asking you, do you think non -kinetic was as utilized in 2017 as it could have been?00:16:45 ANDREW GONZALEZ Definitely not. Right. And now looking at adding competition into the continuum in the range of military operations. where we're going to be the majority of the time. What's your rounds to fire in competition? Well, they're not lethal, right? Yep. Because except for some soft action against very select targets and some denied activities, it's not going to be acceptable to go in there and killing people and breaking things. Yep. That's not how you convince folks to come to your coalition. So absolutely, there's a lot of work to be done and we didn't do enough there. What we did do got criticized by Rand and others, at least in some cases. And some of that criticism was legitimate. So there's, I think, a lot more work that can be done there.00:17:33 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. And you, when it comes down to this multinational land component commander concept, I can't even begin to wrap my head around. My head was spinning, as you were describing, because it's just distributed operations. Right. Land -based, as opposed to maritime -based. It's the same problem set, like rail gauges. With a lot more people.00:17:50 ANDREW GONZALEZ With a lot more people. There aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.00:17:51 BRIAN HANCOCKThere aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.00:17:53 ANDREW GONZALEZ in the ocean when you're doing distributed maritime operations, right?00:17:56 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd if the balloon goes up, we do have limited ability while the air is uncontested and while the seas are uncontested to get civilians away.00:18:06 ANDREW GONZALEZ We have a few minutes left. I'd kind of like to close up by returning to some of the innovation that the Marine Corps has been doing in the last several years. You've talked a bit about the 17XX MOS. Some things we haven't talked as much about are the development and utilization of the Marine Expeditionary Force Information Groups, the MIGs, and the deployment of the Tactical Assault Kit. Can you tell the audience a little bit about those developments?00:18:35 BRIAN HANCOCKThe MIG is really focused on PSYOPs, Comstrat, and MISO. They're excellent at what they do. We do have some OneMeth integration between CA and Comstrat, obviously, for BK25 with respect to their narratives and our public affairs guidance that's going to be issued. And it's going to be very similar to BK24 from what I'm hearing. So again, we don't want to spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel on things we don't need to. Let's focus on the things that we really do need to. And that namely are the relationships and the things like tactical assault kit. So it sounds like it's an actual piece of gear, but it's not. It is a common tactical picture in the most reductive sense. But the bottom line is the reason that this is becoming so prolific throughout the DoD is because you can develop. a map support and a common tactical picture that can be fed up to feed a common operational picture very readily because it's very lightweight and it's OS agnostic. And so it's basically just taking over because it is so adaptable. And when it comes down to air component, land component, logistics component in the Marine Corps needing a specific tool set. to help manage information and get that information to the logistics commander. And then the logistics commander can inform the CJA commander. This is the way to do it. So I am asking everyone out there, go to the MCTESA website, Marine Corps Tactical Software Support Activity website. Log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division. And MCTESA has really gone to great lengths to host what's called TechTube. And what it is, is a series of YouTube videos on all of the software that the Marine Corps currently is fueling. All the systems of record and some of the systems that are not of record. Tactical Assault Kit is not currently a program of record, but we're, you know, high speed moving towards that to make it a program of record. So how civil affairs is planning to utilize this. And ideally we get our ducks in a row with respect to data because everybody and their mother wants Starlink. Right. You can only spread that so thin and reserves are not going to be at the top of any list when it comes down to. No. So we have to rely on in -country data, which is doable, but we have to just learning from BK24, we have to get enough data for a long enough period of time to support TAK. Even though it's lightweight, it's like anything else. It's a cell phone. We currently are outfitted with Galaxy S22s. That's how we conduct our KLEs. That's how we do our, you know, our engagements and do our site assessments. And it's all done on this handheld. And now ATAK, the Android version of TAK, Civ, as opposed to Mill, there's two flavors of TAK. Civilian is, you can just go to any download. You can go to the Android store, you can go to the Apple store, download your civilian variant of TAK, and immediately start using it. But if you want to know how to use it, whether it's the civilian or the military variant, just go to MCTISA, the website, you need a CAT card, log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division, and then drill down on the TechTube videos. And you can immediately see just how user -friendly this system is. And so our goal at EarthCAG is to make this an application alongside Martians. So it's already built into the image when we receive our Martians gear, our Galaxy S22s. So we're organizing some training with MCTISA. And this is one of those things where we want to be able to get the army in on this. We want to be able to get the armed forces of the Philippines. There's no constraints on using. the civilian variant of TAK with our host nation partners. So how do you want to know where your people are and what they're doing? This is how we're going to do it. That's how I plan to give our commander a common tactical picture and roll up the multinational joint civil affairs outreach and civil military operations employment in theater. That's how we're going to do it as VATAC.00:22:23 ANDREW GONZALEZ Well, you've convinced me. I am going to go take a look at that and I'm excited. Mictissa, here I come. I'm going to take a look at the tactical assault kit. Certainly working at the ASCC, if this looks good, I'll definitely be talking to some of my Army colleagues about that. Thank you for your time today, Top. I really appreciate it. Really appreciate everything you're doing as well as what your colleagues at First CAG have been doing. It's been a fantastic relationship and we're looking forward, I know, certainly at 351 and in other. civil affairs formation to working with you in the future.00:22:58 BRIAN HANCOCKRyan, thank you for leaning into the relationship. I don't know of too many others in the civil affairs community independent of service that have gone to the lengths that you have to bring in new ideas, to take some time to listen and learn from one another and actually get this to be applied because that's the only way that we're going to skin the cat.00:23:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ Well said. Thank you also to the audience for joining us for this session. And we'll be putting out some more content from the United States Marine Corps in future sessions.00:23:32 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field. working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations. Thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, 1CA Podcast.
-
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today, Commander Jörg Grössl from the NATO Civil-Military Cooperation Centre of Excellence will discuss the center’s contribution to the maritime domain.
From research, I found that 80 percent of the world’s population lives near a coast, and 90 percent of world’s trade is carried by ships.
So, we are bringing in Commander Grössl to discuss the CIMIC role in the maritime environment and cooperation with Government and Non-Governmental Organizations to build awareness and mitigate the potential impact of military operations at sea or in the littoral regions.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
Music Afternoon Lounge Jazz - Relaxing Jazz Music for Work & Studyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRyJe-0Uie0
---
Transcript
00:00:01 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we have Commander George Grossel from the NATO Civil -Military Cooperation Center of Excellence, who will discuss the center's contribution to the maritime domain.00:00:46 JACK GAINESFrom research, I found that 80 % of the world's population lives near a seacoast, and 90 % of the world's trade is carried by ships. So it makes sense that we would have a maritime simic type of operation. So Commander Grossel, welcome to the show.00:01:02 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, thank you. And to add some figures to what you said, we had in 2024, the crisis and the Red Sea, in addition to the Panama Canal drought and the Baltimore Bridge incident, a reduction of container traffic of 80%. We had... 3 ,400 ships in the Suez Canal less than the year before. So that is what we are talking about. It's how the CIMIC can support that and what does that mean for us as a society. That must be a pretty good size impact on the global economy to have that much slowdown in shipping.00:01:32 JACK GAINESmust be a pretty good size impact on the global economy to have that much slowdown in shipping.00:01:38 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, true. And approximately 500 ,000 containers waiting in Singapore to be transported because of all those interruptions in sea traffic are causing a delay.00:01:49 JACK GAINESRight, because the production doesn't stop just because the sea lanes have slowed down from shipping.00:01:54 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, true.00:01:55 JACK GAINESI remember back at the end of COVID how the Port of Los Angeles had 100, 200 ships in harbor waiting, lined up for unloading, and it was just an enormous mess until everyone finally was able to get back to work and catch up with that delay. Yeah,00:02:12 JÖRG GRÖSSLwe were never given that motor as that big container vessel. Grounded in the Suez Canal for six days in 2021, that resulted in a backlog of 400 ships and trade loss of almost $60 billion. So that is a mess what we are talking about.00:02:45 JACK GAINESdefending themselves or prosecuting a conflict.00:02:49 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, that is the one thing. And a good example was the blockage in Ukraine in 2022 -23 that caused effects even in Africa with the shortage of grains being transported there.00:03:04 JACK GAINESI remember North Africa and the Middle East were struggling to get enough grain for the simple breads that they use every day. And it was a real concern here in the United States. Did NATO have concerns about the wheat blockage?00:03:18 JÖRG GRÖSSLWell, it was more a UN or a nation's initiative, especially then when we had the agreement arranged by Turkey. But NATO as an organization was not involved in that.00:03:30 JACK GAINESOkay. And plus, Ukraine's got a border with Poland, so it could export grain that way into Europe. And Europe has a pretty robust grain agricultural system too, so it probably wasn't as big of an impact.00:03:44 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, well, it developed to a bigger impact. They compensated it now, but especially at the beginning, it was all based on sea transport. And land transport was basically possible, but not in the same capacity as the sea transport. And they had to make that running via land. They went through Romania to the Mediterranean, things like that. But that was not established at the beginning. And so NATO had to be involved in?00:04:09 JACK GAINESso NATO had to be involved in? Deconflicting military and commercial maritime operations and also collaborating?00:04:16 JÖRG GRÖSSLNATO nations like Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey, they had their ships there, but NATO as an organization was at the beginning not involved. That developed then later. But in fact, NATO was not involved into protecting transport or things like that. So it was just putting the picture together and minimized the impacts. With all of the issues with commercial shipping,00:04:41 JACK GAINESissues with commercial shipping, grain shortage, how did you work with NATO to deconflict gray hole operations with commercial shipping and ensuring that they didn't get drawn into the conflict between Russia and Ukraine?00:04:58 JÖRG GRÖSSLThey were basically, they were in the conflict. They were a kind of a bargain. from the Russian side to allow or deny the flow of goods. And that was a clear bargain that they used against Ukraine. And at that time, NATO was not involved because they didn't want to be thrown into the conflict and get into an active part. So it was more like the NATO nation, Turkey as such, who played a role. But the NATO as an organization observed that, but we didn't play an active role in it. Okay.00:05:33 JACK GAINESNow, with Turkey being effectively the arbiter between Russia and Ukraine on shipments and security, did what they learned help NATO out with their maritime summit programs?00:05:47 JÖRG GRÖSSLTurkey not just played a moderator role, of course. With them owning the choke point of the Boxboroughs and the Marmara Sea, they were also a nation that allowed or denied traffic going through. And so the key message that NATO learned from that was who owns the choke points as the joker in his hands. He who holds the choke points makes the rules. Yeah, exactly. You see that on the other side at the Bob Elman Depp,00:06:14 JÖRG GRÖSSLexactly.00:06:16 JÖRG GRÖSSLsee that on the other side at the Bob Elman Depp, you see that at some other choke points like the Panama Canal, who has control, writes the rules.00:06:32 JACK GAINESstop policy or promote policy, and those who run it have enormous power over the lives of the rest of the nations in that region. And we've seen some use by countries to influence that. Iran has used mines in the Straits.00:06:50 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, absolutely. And we see that at the Bob Ellman debt, the moment where a rather short number of foodies have a severe impact to world economy. Right.00:07:02 JACK GAINESAnd that's been a real struggle on trying not to get sucked into a full conflict with the Houthis in the Red Sea.00:07:08 JÖRG GRÖSSLWe all know who the Houthis are, that they're a proxy for Iran against Saudi Arabia, Israel -Gaza war, and the Israel -Lebanon conflict that we have at the moment will add some more oil to that fire. Well,00:07:24 JACK GAINESand that's the challenge that NATO faces. It's always been a networked organization with multiple nations that can forward foreign policy. And now other countries are starting to become regional powers and are using similar tools and techniques to influence policy in those areas. And so we have to start thinking of Iran, Russia, China as networked organizations. They're not just one country anymore because they've got partners, they've got proxies. Some of them have criminal groups that work as operators on behalf of them, and some have paramilitary groups. So it's a more complex environment for NATO. to work on international rule of law and stability and security.00:08:06 JÖRG GRÖSSLYes, absolutely true. But to make that clear, at the moment, NATO is not involved, for example, in operations in the Red Sea. It is only run by NATO Nations or the European Union. The NATO as an organization at the moment is not involved. We are doing other things that have the same importance, for example, in the Baltics, in the Mediterranean. but not in the Red Sea at the moment. Well, tell me about the Baltics. We usually call the Baltics Sea a kind of a swamped field. And sometimes you can walk with dry feet from Germany to Denmark or to Sweden because of that amount of shipping. And of course, you have basically the only ice -free Russian access to the north in the Baltics, but they have to go to the narrow of the Femont Belt and the Catechart in Denmark. You have Kaliningrad in the Baltic. You have St. Petersburg in the Baltic. And of course, in that rather small area, you have a high density of gray ships. You have a high density of white ships. And to have a picture on that is quite challenging. And NATO nations are working together to get a picture of what is going on above the sea.00:09:25 JACK GAINESIs that what the NATO Shipping Center does? picture and help coordinate between gray holes and commercial shipping?00:09:32 JÖRG GRÖSSLshipping? To some extent, the NATO shipping center is adding to that. But the NATO shipping center has no tools. They have no radar stations. They have no electronic devices. So they just use the picture that they get from the bordering nations. They use the information that they get from the ships that are in the Baltics, for example. condensed that to a picture that they can use to support the merchant shipping. Okay.00:10:04 JACK GAINESExplain to me how they support merchant shipping.00:10:06 JÖRG GRÖSSLThe NATO Shipping Center, it is meant to be the link between the organization of NATO and the merchant shipping community. And basically, they are the point of contact to exchange and to get information, to propagate warnings to the shipping, and to interact with the wide shipping. The NATO Shipping Center as such is a rather small organization, but they have a quite extensive network of reservists that are captains of merchant shipping in their civil life and participate in the NATO Shipping Center when they do their reserve missions. And so they are the connection between the military part and the civil part, like passing information. passing warnings, and try to filter the information that are coming from the civil life and put them into the military.00:11:01 JACK GAINESThey cover the Baltics. Do they cover the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean as well, or does it go further than that?00:11:08 JÖRG GRÖSSLThey're covering the Baltics. They're covering the North Sea, the Atlantic to some extent. It always depends on what nations are available if you have them. Like in the Baltics with Germany, Denmark, now Sweden, Finland, and Poland. For example, in the Mediterranean, only the northern part of the Mediterranean is covered by NATO nations and the southern part is not. So your picture that you have there is different than, for example, in the Baltic or in the North Sea.00:11:37 JACK GAINESThat makes sense. And then, of course, whenever there's a crisis, like that ship grounding in the Suez, then they also probably put some type of focus on that because it's going to impact. shipping coming out of the Baltics in the North Sea?00:11:50 JÖRG GRÖSSLNot to that extent, because if there is an incident like that, then there is still the International Maritime Organization with their center in Kuala Lumpur. And they are basically responsible for the civil side of it. So it is not a NATO task to inform the merchant shipping about the civil incidents that took place somewhere. So they have their own organization to some extent. Okay.00:12:19 JACK GAINESWhat was it called again? The International Shipping?00:12:22 JÖRG GRÖSSLIMO, India Mike, the International Maritime Organization.00:12:22 JACK GAINESIMO,00:12:26 JACK GAINESOkay. Do you guys ever partner with them or work with them?00:12:30 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, we cooperate with them when needed. Let's say it like that. Sure. Because you don't want to get too deep into their business and they don't want to get too deep in yours.00:12:36 JACK GAINESinto their business and they don't want to get too deep in yours.00:12:38 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah. And they're acting globally and we are not that much interested in about what is going on off the coast of Chile.00:12:46 JACK GAINESBut sometimes, I mean, NATO gets pulled into, I mean, they got pulled into Korea. Yeah. Pulled into Iraq. So sometimes it's outside the borders and I'm sure there has to be some cooperation when NATO extends itself beyond.00:12:59 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah. But that is a case by case basis.00:13:02 JACK GAINESSure. But can you give me your perspective of NATO civil -military cooperation in the maritime domain? What is your role? How do you apply it?00:13:13 JÖRG GRÖSSLCIMIC functioning in any domain, but especially counts for the maritime domain. What are the civil factors in my environment? How does this impact my operation? How might I impact the operation of the civil traffic? And we try to de -conflict that or to coordinate that, and if possible, even to cooperate. Do you have an example? If we go to the top, for example, to establish an alliance network to GUT. But you could establish an alliance network to the International Maritime Organization, to other organizations that operate there. There is a number of... civil support given to the Yemen. And this traffic also needs to be de -conflicted with the military operations. And if I go now to the latest version of the AJP 3 .19, which is the NATO publication for CIMIC, it says the maintenance of the freedom of navigation, sea lines of communication, key infrastructure, energy flow, protection of marine resources and environmental safety. all in the interests of national and international security. And it's not just about what is above the water, it's also to some extent what is below the water. For example, who is responsible for protecting an underwater sea cable that is transferring information from the US to Europe and back, but that is owned by a civil company? And that is maybe outside any territorial water, so meaning outside the responsibility of any nation, but is of high importance for commercial, for information sharing and so on. This is yet unsolved because everybody is thinking about it because it has been recognized, especially with the attack on the Nord Stream pipeline or the attack on the telecommunication cable between Estonia, Finland and Sweden. So we discovered that there is an issue, but we're working on that, but do not have a situation so far.00:15:29 JACK GAINESAnd it does help that Russia puts out a story, usually on social media about twice a year, about how the cables are under risk. And boy, we sure could clip them at any time, pal.00:15:40 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, but we're talking about thousands of cables. So clipping one or even 10 or even 100 will not have a severe impact. It's not that easy to clip them. We are not talking about cutting a wire or something like that. But I think there are possibilities to disrupt this disconnection.00:16:00 JACK GAINESWell, it's good that they're thinking about it because the only thing that ships more than maritime is probably information across those lines.00:16:07 JÖRG GRÖSSLDefinitely. And when we're thinking about that, sometimes information are even more important than solid goods. And it's easier. to fake information or to disrupt the flow of information, then to do that is solid goods. That has been one of the learning factors that we draw from the Ukraine war at the moment. Right. You're a sailor, right? Yeah, that's true. I had some experience on ships, well, for about 15 years or so, and I started in the early 90s. And basically had my first deployment in the early 90s to the Adriatic Sea when we did the blockade and the embargo against the former Yugoslavia. I think the word SIMIC was not even existing at that time. But if you consider it, what we did there by checking the traffic that has gone into the Adriatic Sea, by cooperating with mostly Italian. governmental institutions like the police or the financial police and also passing warnings to the shipping. That was to some extent what we do now under the umbrella of SIMIC, but we did that under a different umbrella. So basically it's ever been there. It was just differently named. I started there. I had some deployments to the Persian Gulf, to the Gulf of Aden. I was deployed often to the Mediterranean. I have been in Djibouti. Sometimes I've stood with my ship in the Gulf of Aden doing anti -piracy operations. And at that time, we have to cooperate with the partnering nations, with the surrounding nations and the institutions there. So basically what we do now when we talk about SIMIC.00:17:58 JACK GAINESRight. Here, Ed. Deutschland Naval Officer. That is correct, yes.00:18:01 JÖRG GRÖSSLyes. But I started to sail on American ships, so I joined Navy after school, and I was on one of our civil man ship, but that was still a Navy ship, but only there were no soldiers on board of it.00:18:18 JACK GAINESOh, okay. And as a sailor, how did you get interested in airtime Simic?00:18:25 JÖRG GRÖSSLThat developed over the years. What CIMIC is doing is something that we basically did the whole time. When I was deployed to the Gulf of Aden with my ship, we cooperated, for example, protecting civil shipping, protecting canal in the Gulf of Aden to avoid piracy. We were cooperating with the World Food Programme when they conducted their transports to Somalia ports and avoided. piracy attacks so basically we cooperated with the civil environment of course we integrated the civil picture in our picture that we had and then transferred that to the bigger picture for the whole area so we had the civil factor integration and we also had some civil military integration not under the umbrella of the mic at that time but that made me get interested in that topic and that was then The trigger to say, okay, that could be something that is interesting as well. And basically, in the German Navy, your career ends at your mid -40s because then your chance to be on ships again is rather small. And so you have to look for something different. And for me, that was Simic.00:19:41 JACK GAINESThat makes sense. Do you have any stories from when you were working operations and you had to deal with piracy or with a shipping issue? something else of that nature.00:19:53 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, when we were deployed, the Operation Enduring Freedom to the Gulf of Aden. And Enduring Freedom was not at all an anti -piracy operation. It was more the fight against terrorism. And we were employed at the sea part to disrupt drugs, to disrupt traffic of weapons in the Gulf of Aden. But obviously, due to the... The civil situation in Somalia with all the political circumstances, having no government around there, and also the situation due to some overfishing off the coast of Somalia, basically they lost their basis for living. And so they reoriented and found out that piracy could be a good job and they could earn some money with that. And so piracy in that area increased dramatically. And so one of the side effects of the warships being employed there for Operation Enduring Freedom was that they were there as a kind of international call to ships in distress, were also involved in anti -piracy. And for us, that meant we were there. And as soon as a ship called for distress because they were approached by those pirate skiffs. We were there and when the next ship in the vicinity, we tried to help them. Usually that meant that we launched our helicopter and that we tried at high speed to approach those ships. And being a warship as such in the area already had an effect on them. So, of course, they tried to avoid being too close to a warship. And that led to thinking about how can you organize it? that the shipping is not that much affected by piracy. And we were involved in organizing that and we were involved in executing that, that there was a safe corridor established with gray ships being positioned there. And so you had your picture of the civil environment and you had always knew where they are and you were able to have them travel to a corridor. With gray ships protecting them every 20, 30 nautical miles, that dramatically reduced the number of pirate attacks.00:22:17 JACK GAINESAs the warships were protecting the sea lanes, there was probably people engaging with the populations of the surrounding nations to cooperate with security and presence and transportation.00:22:30 JÖRG GRÖSSLIn the south, there was Amalia. In the north, there was Yemen. In the northwest, there was Eritrea. The only nation that you could cooperate with was Djibouti. And that led to the point that Djibouti became more and more an interesting point for many nations. And I think it's the only nation where you have a French military base there, an American military base, a Japanese, Chinese, and military from all those nations being there and to have an eye on the shipping that is going on.00:23:05 JACK GAINESAnd you bring that perspective into NATO so that as they write AGP 319 or as they prepare exercises or outreach or training, you bring that in to help color that training so that it has a more personal tone.00:23:22 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, definitely. And if you exercise as an army unit, you're usually on a military training area and this area is free. But if you're exercising in a naval environment, You're usually exercising in open seas and you have always civil traffic around and you have always air traffic in the area. So you have to live with it or to incorporate that into the exercise. We are in this area and we have that density of shipping. So how do we handle that situation? Because in real life, you have to handle that as well.00:24:01 JACK GAINESWell, that's a good thing because in a lot of exercises, people make grand assumptions that they'll have access to ports, access to rail, freedom of the seas. But by actually working exercises in places with sea traffic, you actually have to think about it. You have to actually deal with the reality on the ground. And I think that probably helps commanders better assess logistics and how they can get things from here to there. and apply military strength.00:24:32 JÖRG GRÖSSLAnd it also helps to have, at the joint level, to have the Navy guys think about what impact their operations have ashore, and also for the land commanders, how they have to rely on traffic that is coming overseas. Absolutely. So, do you want to talk a little bit about the NATO school? Yeah. We're the Civic Center of Excellence based in The Hague in the Netherlands, which is good because The Hague is also known as one of the cities where you have a lot of international organizations. So it is an interesting place to be and it's an interesting place to cooperate with the civil environment. We are one of around 30 centers of excellence that exist now. We're basically working for NATO. having two framework nations, which is the Netherlands and Germany. We have some additional nations like Poland, Hungary, Italy. We have three pillars, interoperability and capability, training and education branch, and we have the lessons learned and analysis branch. So we're trying to get information from exercises, from missions, identify lessons learned. try to integrate them in our concept, in our publications, and to train that to the people that are new in the CIMIC world and to integrate that in our training. Overall, we are around 50 people here. And yeah, that's the CIMIC Center of Excellence.00:26:10 JACK GAINESOkay. So it sounds like it's a touch operational and academic. How would different forces sign in to get involved?00:26:19 JÖRG GRÖSSLI think we have six or seven courses. The staff worker course, where you learn how to work in a multinational or joint environment. We have the higher command course, which is basically the highest level. But we're having courses for the tactical level, for the operational level, and for the strategic level. I don't have the exact number, but yeah, we're quite busy with that.00:26:46 JACK GAINESOkay. Well, make sure to send me a link and I'll put it in the show notes in case people are interested in taking a course. Yeah. Do you bring in non -NATO members to attend classes as well?00:26:56 JÖRG GRÖSSLYes, we do. We are having people from various nations, non -NATO nations. Of course, at the moment, we have some focus on the Ukraine. We frequently have Ukrainian officers training for us. We had some cooperation. with Jordanian officers, also officers from Austria, for example.00:27:19 JACK GAINESThat makes a lot of sense.00:27:20 JÖRG GRÖSSLSo all that putting together under the umbrella of the ACO, the Allied Command of Operations. And on the civil side, we have frequently courses here that are run by, for example, UN OCHA, UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. that are using our capabilities to run a course here. And that, of course, gives us the opportunity to cooperate with them, to coordinate our efforts.00:27:52 JACK GAINESI was talking to the military liaison to India out here in D .C., and he was really interested in civil affairs and what we do, and I offered... Hey, you can always come on down to Fort Liberty and we'll give you a tour of what civil affairs training is, what our active duty forces are. But I also mentioned NATO. You guys have a center of excellence if he's ever interested in learning what civil affairs or CIMIC does at the NATO level.00:28:20 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, and one of our projects that we are constantly running to enhance the interoperability between civil affairs and CIMIC by... exchanging personnel, having CA officers here at the CIMIC Center of Excellence, having people from us be at SWICC for liberty. We are running, for example, three times a year as EMPC, which is the European Mission Preparations Course, where people from our CIMIC Center of Excellence are going to the U .S. and train U .S. Army Reserve officers before they deploy to Europe.00:28:58 JACK GAINESOh, cool. Yeah, that's super important. And the nice thing is, even in working with non -NATO members, is that if they ever have to engage NATO, whether they're European or South American, African, Asian, that gives a sense of commonality so that they have a place to start. So it's not so random that you're getting a call from a payphone saying, hey, by the way, we're doing this and it might impact guys or we need training. It gives interoperability to the external partners or people who just may end up getting involved because of an issue. So that's very helpful.00:29:37 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, absolutely. And in addition, you may have to look into your register and already have an email address where you can talk to. Okay, cool.00:29:47 JACK GAINESWell, that's all I have. Do you have any last comments that you want to throw out there or any last thoughts?00:29:51 JÖRG GRÖSSLlast thoughts? Just get your still. continuously working on expanding our network. For example, this year we had one of our officers in South Korea and contribute a civil military operation tabletop exercise with the Korean armed forces and the US forces over there. So we have the connection over the Atlantic. I'm frequently part of the NATO shipping working group. That is basically organized by the NATO shipping center and they're expanding their network also to South America. The last time we had personnel from Brazil and Argentina with us. Of course, we are not just working within the CIMIC environment, but we're also cooperating with other centers of excellence like the crisis management and disaster response exercise. The Maritime Security Center of Excellence, the Military Police Center of Excellence, and Military Medicine. There are a lot of them that we are cooperating on on various levels to put that all together in one piece. And let me come to the example of the Ukraine now. We have recently published our study on simic factors to be drawn from the Ukraine war. Of course, other centers of excellence did that as well. In addition, what we also do is try to develop CIMIC. For example, we establish CIMIC analysis and assessment capabilities to improve the understanding of the civil environment and to integrate them in the military picture.00:31:33 JACK GAINESOh, yeah. You guys stay busy.00:31:36 JÖRG GRÖSSLYeah, definitely. Definitely.00:31:38 JACK GAINESThat's a good thing. It means that your work's important and... You guys have to stay on top of it in order to keep things flowing and the military not having issues. So that's fantastic. Okay, now I'm done. Okay, I'm done too. You have recorded all my thoughts. Oh, good. You can go home for the rest of the day.
Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Today, Brian Hancock hosts Col. Jeffrey Fiddler to discuss his work helping manage the DOD response to the Gaza relief mission.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---Special thanks to Natalia Lafourcade for the sample of Tú Sí Sabes Quererme (En Manos de Los Macorinos). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABLT6hdgEek
---
Transcript
00:00:01 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA podcast. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website. at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:34 BRIAN HANCOCKI'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock and I will be your host for this session. Colonel Jeffrey Fidler is a civil affairs officer with 34 years, thank you sir, of combined enlisted and commissioned service. He has a master's degree in strategic studies and a master's and bachelor's degrees in criminal justice. On the civilian side, he is a career law enforcement officer. currently employed as a special agent with the Department of Homeland Security. Colonel Fidler, welcome to the show. Great to be here, Brian. Thanks for having me. So let's talk about Gaza. It's a man -made disaster. Of course, natural disasters are on the rise as well. This one happens to be a man -made disaster, and the toll is high. At present, 96 % of the population of the Gaza Strip, which is an estimated 2 .15 million people, are food insecure. Now, you went to that region. You're back. You probably have a view of this from multiple angles. Can you tell us a little bit about the U .S. response to this crisis?00:01:38 JEFFREY FIDDLERThis was a complex operation. Yeah, no doubt. It involved a joint force across two different combatant commands. So you have Cyprus, which belongs to UCOM, AOR, and then you have Gaza, Israel, which falls under CENTCOM. And you have... IGOs out there, United Nations, UKAID, USAID, Bureau of Humanitarian Assistance, which is the most important one for us when it comes to HA, bringing all those actors, so to speak, together to form a coherent response. Like anything we do in civil affairs, it can be challenging at first.00:02:15 BRIAN HANCOCKBut it's extra challenging because we're military. Many of these actors you just described... have a little bit of baggage when it comes to military, or they have neutrality requirements like the Red Cross that limits their ability to work with the military. If they don't understand civil affairs and what our role is and the heart we have for humanitarian assistance and disaster relief and our sincere willingness to help, I mean, if we are mistaken for folks who want to take a, you know, shoot them up kind of approach, then that... would not make that an easy group to bring together as a coalition of the willing. There is definitely some baggage from the wars, right? Yeah. There is.00:02:55 JEFFREY FIDDLERThere is. And we had the constraints. President made a decision. We're not going to have any boots on the ground. We follow orders of soldiers, right? So now you need partners on the back end. One thing the Army's always great at is logistic. So we can get a bunch of aid over there. And there'll be some friction getting it. Because you're dealing with civilian entities and organizations. There's always friction, but that's too easy. Really, the hardest part is once we get it on the beach, who's going to take it from there to deliver it to the people that are hungry? It's not going to be the U .S. military. And it's certainly not going to be really any military because you're dealing with organizations that can't necessarily work with a military organization. So it has to be civilian -led.00:03:35 BRIAN HANCOCK-led. And there can be mistakes if military forces of any branch are rolling in there. They may be seen as aggressors or a party to the conflict under the law of war. Very complicated. But getting supplies through there, tough. You're talking, you know, everyone with a gun is going to shake down an aid convoy coming through because that stuff is just worth its weight in gold right now. So you've got that complexity once it hits the beach. And obviously we want the humanitarian assistance to get to the needy who requires that sustenance to continue living. You've got a logistics hub, as I understood it, sitting there in Cyprus that was put together to do all of the loading and preparation. Then you're going out to CENTCOM, crossing a geographic combatant commander's boundary to set up this giant man -made dock amidst threats from some folks to attack this structure in what's kind of amounting to the Wild West. And then we have ARSEN, formerly Third Army in World War II. who's in charge of this mission. And then we have all these partners in the mix. You're being very humble, I think, but this sounds like a tough coalition to put together and get them all to work into a common purpose.00:04:52 JEFFREY FIDDLERIt's not easy. Yeah. And I'll touch on that. I'm going to geek out for a second for all of our real civil affairs people. I'm going to talk about the Bureau of Humanitarian Assistance. Yeah, BHA.00:04:58 BRIAN HANCOCKI'm going to talk00:05:00 SPEAKER_00Yeah, BHA.00:05:02 JEFFREY FIDDLERSo you need a MITAM to get the HA. You need a consignee. in Cyprus to receive the goods. And that's easy.00:05:10 BRIAN HANCOCKThe MITAB is a mission tasking matrix, kind of like a request from the host nation that you're providing support to saying, we need this type of thing here, there, which gets validated and vetted by the military.00:05:23 JEFFREY FIDDLERYeah. And it allows the DOD to respond, to actually use a piece of equipment to bring non -DOD articles or something to somewhere else. So the DOD doesn't get the bill. So you need a consignee from my team on both ends. The hard part was, who's that consignee going to be? It's a clear chain of custody. It's a requirement. Absolutely. So the World Food Program stepped up to the plate. But back to one of your earlier points of not working with the military, and look, that's their charter. Us and the military might hate it, but that's just the way it is. And WFP made it quite clear there's not going to be a military flavor to this when they receive the goods over there. And that's important to understand. So really bringing in everybody so that we could all get on the same shoot of music.00:05:43 BRIAN HANCOCKa clear chain of custody. It's a requirement.00:06:06 JEFFREY FIDDLERbringing in everybody so that we could all get on the same shoot of music. One of the things that I'm proudest of, what we did for civil affairs is helping set up a multinational coordination center with the Cypriots. So when we first started it, there might've been 10 people at the table, Brian. By the time we left her at the height of the operation, it was about 50 people in a room from all these various organizations. And we made sure that the Cypriots were in the lead. It's their nation. Yeah, yeah. Sovereign nation. Yeah. Sovereign nation, which is a whole other point. And we could do a whole other podcast on that about how civil affairs operates over in Yukon. But Cypriots are in the lead. We're there to support them and their efforts. And it was something as simple as, you know, Major Alan Diggertullo, my CPI chief, he was down there with me. One of the things we did with Alan was he would liaison with the Cypriots,00:06:34 BRIAN HANCOCKSovereign nation.00:06:56 JEFFREY FIDDLERcreate a PowerPoint slide of... talking points that we were going to discuss during the MNCC. And that might not seem like a big deal to members of the audience out there that are Army. But other militaries, they don't necessarily do that. We weren't trying to insert ourselves. We were just trying to come to a middle ground where everybody could have a common understanding of where we were going. Trying to help facilitate. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of the friction points were wicked out during the MNCC. And then once a week, we would host a multinational decision board. where we would bring in senior leaders. So I'm talking one -star admirals all the way up to four -star generals in the army, plus the ambassadors. So you have ambassador level ranked from the Cypriots, other countries that are visiting, and the United States there, where if we hit a roadblock where we couldn't get something done during the MNCC, which is really like a working group, then you bring in the senior leaders for them to make a decision or something for them to action. So I think that's what kind of lessened some of the friction that we had.00:07:56 BRIAN HANCOCKthat we had. Yeah. Sometimes that can increase, too, when you have different equities, different political equities, different concerns coming together. And, of course, for the military, it's usually pretty short -term involvement in HADR. So you hit a couple of good roadblocks, and that could really derail the mission. And it's awesome to hear that you guys had to figure out a process and that apparently it largely worked to keep that moving forward and get that aid to the people who desperately needed it.00:08:22 JEFFREY FIDDLERneeded it. It wasn't easy, but there was mistakes made along the way,00:08:26 BRIAN HANCOCKthe way, for sure. Right. Mistakes don't define us. What we learn from them and how we pick up and carry on maybe does, but mistakes don't necessarily define us. Within the context of that, for the audience, we've kind of talked a lot about the Gaza mission. What was your specific role that you were assigned to?00:08:44 JEFFREY FIDDLERSure. And this goes back to, like we talked about a little while ago. You got to be aggressive, figure it out. Like I talked about, Hilda Fernandez, you know, came down to the Pentagon to do a job. She didn't necessarily end up doing that job, but she did what was required to do as a civil affairs officer. So my job was to go down there and to be the U .S. Army, Europe, and Africa, Army element, OIC, and just strictly focus on Army -related issues to support the mission. That completely morphed as soon as I got there, and we fell under a joint task force. And there was a need for a strong civil affairs presence in the MNCC and operations in general and civil knowledge integration. So we immediately shifted gears. I ended up becoming the de facto XO of the JTF. So I was dual -hatted as the senior civil affairs officer for the operation and the XO. And Major DeGratulo was the CKI chief and one of the operations officers for the JTF. So it just turned into that and it worked for us. Okay.00:09:46 BRIAN HANCOCKWell, you brought some handpicked team members there, so I'm not surprised that they were able to adapt. I think that's one thing that really defines us as civil affairs professionals is that we're very adaptable in different environments. We don't bring just like one tool to the fight.00:09:59 JEFFREY FIDDLERAbsolutely. I sometimes see that culture out there where it's like, hey, we're going to find a way to know. And one of the things that I appreciate about civil affairs, most of us have a mindset of let's find a way to yes and figure out the problem. For one example, both Alan and I went out to sea with the French Navy. That's not something I ever saw myself doing in civil affairs, but they wanted a liaison officer on the French warship to deliver aid. So we actually went within four miles of the shore of Gaza. And that was just to make sure the French Navy was comfortable, that they were able to talk to the U .S. Navy. They had an American officer on board. And, you know, we'd pull in, deliver the aid, and then leave. Did you do that under a French flag or were you international?00:10:39 BRIAN HANCOCKunder a French flag or were you international? French flag. Sometimes they re -flag depending on the mission. So that's interesting. But you know, others in our community who might be involved in defense support to civil authorities, DISCA or humanitarian assistance disaster reef, HADR, what were some of the obstacles that you encountered in your mission in Gaza and how did you overcome them? Sure.00:11:02 JEFFREY FIDDLERLike I said earlier, the friction points, that was difficult at times. And you said it earlier, Brian, there are folks that have been doing this for 20, 30 years in the civilian world. I think baggage is the wrong word. I'm going to say scar tissue. And you need to recognize that. If you see that, you know, you as the civil affairs officers, you're going to take part in this and kind of, if you're going to take a leading role to make this thing work, you need to recognize that and allay their fears that you're going to do everything you can to protect the process that they use. They're not showing up to be difficult. They have a process like BHA. They have a process for MITAM. You don't want to go to the left or right of that because that's the way that they do their business. And I think it's one of our jobs as civil affairs to make sure that our military understands that process so that eventually the two can come to a way to yes of how we're going to get something across the finish line.00:11:56 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, that's awesome. In civil affairs, we get access to some specialty training like the Jayhawk, the Joint Humanitarian Assistance Operations Course. the hard course. And I'm not sure that the larger force, especially in the combat arms, that they necessarily broaden with these kinds of things. But it's really important when we're working for BHA, that's always in a support role. And if we're doing DISCA, again, always in a support role, we may feel we're large and in charge, but one, we're not because of the nature of the mission. And two, we're operating either the U .S. or abroad. And in this case, in a well -developed nation, that's sovereign. We also have some subordination to the host nation that we have to follow. And there are extra steps and things that we have to do here. But if we don't want to generate an international incident, you know, we have to take that seriously. And I think we're fortunate that we have some additional training, but I'm not sure everyone in DOD does. No, I don't think so.00:12:50 JEFFREY FIDDLERdon't think so. I think there's, like you mentioned, the Jayhawk course, right? I mean, and then, Brian, if we really want to go down a rabbit hole, we could talk about NATO when it comes to CEMEC as a joint function. So we understand it, but we train in the G5s of the world or the G35s. People need to understand that. It's not like operating in Kuwait or Iraq as civil affairs operations. The way I look at it, we do CEMIC over here. And they should. And we have to work by with them through our CEMIC partners. But back to Cyprus, I would say the country, they get the ultimate vote. It's their country, their sovereign nation. And then you also have... People sometimes forget, you know, the U .S. ambassador has a huge vote. Yeah, he's a four -star. Yeah. For Cyprus, Ambassador Fisher worked with the ambassador. We had meetings with her a couple of times. She has a huge vote on what goes on and how it does go on. And we get it, right, as civil affairs. But if you don't operate in that kind of environment a lot, it can be challenging. And again, I go back to the Multinational Coordination Center, Multinational Decision Board. where you get all those stakeholders in the same room, that's where you can really make some money on that. And I'd be remiss of saying this. We had civil affairs folks from CENTCOM that actually came out from Kuwait. So Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Goulet, he showed up with his team and we worked very close together, Jeff and I. Great officer, worked really hard. So he was a big factor in our success out there. And I know everybody's read stuff in the paper. They can see the stats of what was delivered. When we talked about the challenges, one thing that we haven't mentioned is the weather. Right. So the weather gets a vote. Sea state. Yep. The sea state. Yep. It gets a vote. So, I mean, how many briefings have we been to, you and I, where the G2 gets up and speaks weather and everybody's half asleep, right? I've been the G2 delivering it and half asleep. So you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. So now finally the G2 can deliver a weather of what that actually matters. It's like right then and there. But in seriousness, you know, I'm not going to get into the particulars of what the Trident Pier can handle.00:14:34 BRIAN HANCOCKyou know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. So now finally00:14:49 JEFFREY FIDDLERBut if you go over a certain sea state, it's not going to work. Right. It's like the Mulberry bases that we built as temporary ports after the Normandy landing,00:14:53 BRIAN HANCOCKMulberry bases that we built as temporary ports after the Normandy landing, right? And one of them was sunk. Mulberry 8 is completely sunk. You saw the stuff in open source.00:15:02 JEFFREY FIDDLERsaw the stuff in open source. We lost part of the Trident Pier. It's going to happen. You know, and commanders take risk, right? They're going to decide how they're going to push it and things happen. But we did get some HA across the pier. It just wasn't as much as we'd all like. A very tough problem set.00:15:18 BRIAN HANCOCKWe hope that that resolves, you know, with minimal loss of life as soon as this is practicable. We've talked about some of the challenges, and what are some of the successes that you had in that mission, other than overcoming sunk peers and things like that?00:15:32 JEFFREY FIDDLERI think the big success for civil affairs was really the Multinational Coordination Center. And the relationships that we built with the Cypriots, they were just fabulous. So we had a full bird colonel out there, Colonel Sangridis. He's a lead for the Cypriots for this problem set. So we talked every morning. A good success that we had with that was he didn't have an aide. So we took a Marine Corps lieutenant, because this is all a joint, and he sat right next to the colonel from Cyprus, and he did all of his updates on the slide forum. He invited that Marine over his house to have dinner. They became very close, and it really helped move things along.00:16:11 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. Relationships matter. Relationships do matter. And that was a sustained issue. You can't be issuing a demarche every time you want something done.00:16:18 JEFFREY FIDDLERYeah. Yeah, exactly. And he was the center of gravity. So he had access to emails from other countries that are coming in regarding HA that we were never going to be privy to. Again, this isn't a US -led operation. Cypriots are in the lead. We're in a supporting role. USAID was the ported. So those relationship building, the LNOs, things like that, that was successful. But the multinational center, that was really where we made our money.00:16:44 BRIAN HANCOCKAll right. I'm going to ask you from the position of hindsight, what are some of the potential lessons learned from what we did? And in your opinion, the conflict continues and the need is still there. What do you think our next step should be?00:16:59 JEFFREY FIDDLERThat's a tough one because we know the tried and peer doesn't exist anymore. I could see it transitioning into civilian. And I know that there was some talk about that, where you still bring in the humanitarian assistance to Cyprus, and then you put on civilian ships and you deliver it, whether it's to the port of Ashdod, or they build a temporary pier. I don't know if you remember this central kitchen. I do. They lost some people to fire. That was tough. That was a - Good people. You know, loss of life, good people, but a setback as well. That slowed down the whole process, and rightfully so, I get it. But they had built a temporary pier. near where we were before we even put in the Trident Pier. So that's how they were delivering food. So I think something like that might be a way. And I think really it's more political than military. I mean, I think the numbers wouldn't lie, Brian, that you can get more aid across the land border than could on a Trident Pier or whether you're doing airdrops. And what the DOD did between coming across the land border, airdrops, and we had the Trident Pier up and running, that was the most that we can physically do at the time.00:17:24 BRIAN HANCOCKwas tough. That was a - Good people. You know, loss of life, good people, but a00:18:04 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. And we don't have the math fully in front of us, but it is highly probable from a statistics point of view that there are some people who are now alive who may not have been alive if you and your team hadn't done this mission with the other partners. And yeah, a good news mission overall, of course, a tough topic.00:18:22 JEFFREY FIDDLERYeah. And I think history repeats itself. So all those young CAO officers and NCOs that might be listening, this is something that you might see in your career.00:18:30 BRIAN HANCOCKAnd there'll be tough decisions that had to be made. By seeing some of the quality of some of the folks we have coming through the CA pipeline, I think they're going to be ready to make them. Yeah, absolutely. You finished the Gaza mission. Your tour to USARAF is coming to an end. What is next in the life of Colonel Jeffrey Fidler?00:18:49 JEFFREY FIDDLERSo I was hired to be the J -9 for Security Assistance Group Ukraine. Great main effort here. So that's one piece of the puzzle. To take the tour, it's a mobilization. I'll need an MRD extension. So that paperwork is going to go in. If not, maybe I'll be the J9. Get an age extension. You're younger than me.00:19:08 BRIAN HANCOCKyounger than me. I don't know. No, no, no. You're younger than me. If you can't get an age extension. Oh, it's a MRD, years of service. I'm going to have to wonder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But still, you're healthy. You're young.00:19:16 JEFFREY FIDDLERgoing to have to00:19:21 JEFFREY FIDDLERWe'll see what happens. But we've been working with Ukraine Simic for some time now. We've also had our 38 golfs involved in the past on that. So I think we're on our fifth iteration of helping train Ukrainian Simic. And that's in conjunction with CJ Soda, your soft CA, so to speak. They're in the lead on that, but there is some expertise that we have in Compo 3.00:19:47 BRIAN HANCOCKYou know, when we look at their functional specialty teams, not the same. We have different expertise with our golfs and our other capabilities. And soft are amazing, but there's only so many of them. So if you have a sustained function, and SIMIC as a joint function is something you have to always be doing, whether you're in conflict, crisis, or competition, right? So I would think that there would be a steady demand signal to augment them.00:20:12 JEFFREY FIDDLERThere is. 38 golfs, like I said, Brian, we already sent some of those over. We also support one of their other programs is their medical training. So this gets into the whole trimmer piece. Ukrainian Simic, we teach them on first aid. We actually sent a full bird doctor from the KCOM. It was like one of the lead surgeons in New York City. So Ukraine Simic folks were just floored that this level of expertise is coming. But so were our soft folks. They were like, we want more like that. Just keep on sending more. They can't grow that.00:20:42 BRIAN HANCOCKthat. They can't grow that.00:20:42 JEFFREY FIDDLERthat. They can't grow that. And then with the 38 Golfs coming in with their background, whether it's infrastructure, governance. Skill rich. Super skill rich. And they came out. It's gotten so much to the point where they're actually paying for our travel, for Compo 3 to travel from the United States to wherever the training area is because they see value in what Compo 3 brings to the table. And I got to give a shout out to Colonel Tony Baja, retired. That's how he envisioned it. We executed it. Didn't take the foot off the gas pedal. Tony's like, hey, I think this is kind of the way we should go. And I said, yeah, that makes sense to me. And then we just drove it home for him. Awesome.00:21:18 BRIAN HANCOCKThat worked out really well. And I myself might someday support one of your CIMIC trainings and some of the other folks out there. Great opportunity to work with some amazing people doing good things. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. Do you have any final remarks for the audience you want to pass on?00:21:35 JEFFREY FIDDLERNo, it was great to be here. Stay on top of your PME. I'm going to throw my old Brigade Commander hat on for a minute. Oh, yeah. There's never a good time to do ILE, ever. So as soon as you get promoted, yeah, you just got to get it done.00:21:49 BRIAN HANCOCKBite the bullet and go. High grade won't get you promoted in ILE, but if you don't do it, you will definitely not be promoted. So it's important.00:21:57 JEFFREY FIDDLERI have an old saying, no major left behind, but there are lieutenant colonels left behind if you don't get ILE done. That's for sure.00:22:04 BRIAN HANCOCKfor sure. All right. Thank you for your time, sir. Really appreciate it. And that's a wrap. All right. Great. Thanks, Brian.00:22:12 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. Stay tuned for more great episodes. 1CA Podcast.
-
In this episode, Mariah Yager is interviewing David Luna and Jack Gaines as they discuss how adversaries use criminality to achieve their foreign policy goals while removing U.S. influence and capability.
The interview is based on a presentation at SMA (Strategic Multilayer Assessment), an online Pentagon forum. Link to the show and resources: https://nsiteam.com/smaspeakerseries_22august2024/
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to the Epidemic Blues channel for the sample of Peter Crosby - Jailhouse Blues. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuyc-bIjQ10
---
Transcript
00:00:06 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast, a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website. at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:39 MARIAH YAGERHi, everyone. I'm Mariah Yeager, and welcome to today's guest, David Luna, the founder of International Coalition Against Illicit Economies. Prior to ICAIE, David Luna was the Senior Director for International Security and Diplomacy at the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement. He focused on strengthening international cooperation and fighting threat to illicit networks. And David also helped launch the Organization for Economic Coordination and Development Task Force on Countering Illicit Trade. But with that, Mr. Luna, I'd like to hand the floor over to you.00:01:11 DAVID LUNAThank you very much Mariah and Jack. It is great to be here to participate about the radar warfare in grey zones related to China and Russia, manipulating instability through co -option and coercive economics, including by weaponizing corruption. including election interference, as Secretary Blinken has underscored in recent months, elicit financial flows to support pro -authoritarian candidates that advance malign influence and that exploit governance gaps to secure friendly policies, while harming our U .S. national interests. This also includes the leveraging of criminal networks, proxies, and professional enablers. to advance policies to construct a multipolar world, exploiting grey zones in the process from small islands in the Asia -Pacific region to fragile democracies in Latin America, Africa, and Southeast Europe. The United States remains unprepared for irregular warfare. China, Iran, and Russia continue to seek to undercut U .S. influence. They degrade American relationships with key allies and partners. and to exploit the global environment to their advantage, including by exploiting instruments of competition, strategic corruption, blind influence operations, terrorism, sabotage, and subversion through asymmetrical and clandestine efforts. And so we can dictate the costs related to these hostile actions by effectively prosecuting the strategic use of corruption. and predatory criminality by adversaries across race zones to ensure that democracy reigns over authoritarianism. Greaterly the rule of law and international -based systems must outlive targeted chaos, abversion, and malign influence. I think that we must use such current and horizontal threats to repressive threat convergence so that we can develop actional responses to counter illegality. that is corroding the rule of law and interconnected with the threats networks. Through this framework, I firmly believe that we can better help DOD, the intelligence community, the interagency community, our combatant commanders, and our warfighters to understand the threat and to equip them with pragmatic resource sustain, irregular warfare tools, and anti -crime capabilities. The Department of Defense and our interagency partners to develop more dynamic NASA security military strategies and to get ahead of the game in planning for future irregular warfare campaigns, using these innovative capabilities to expand the competitive space to the U .S. advantage of their allies. A few months ago, I had the distinct pleasure of delivering the keynote address at a meeting hosted by the Department of Defense. Office for Special Operations, as well as the Cali Narcotics and Cali Transnational Organized Crime Program. At that time, I focused more on criminal networks, and I would like to expand on that discussion. I've been focusing more on the policy actions that I believe are needed and that must be integrated into greater warfare strategies. Last month, the Office of the Director for National Intelligence released a brief report. entitled Conflict and the Gray Zones, highlighting non -relations, will increasingly feature an array of hostile gray zones activities. As China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia seek to challenge the United States and to gain advantage over other countries through deliberate campaigns while also trying to avoid war. These gray zones are more often than unexploited in places where corruption thrives. Criminals finance chaos, impunity, and insecurity. So I will focus again on some of these reasons to give you a better understanding how some of these adversaries are leveraging illicit criminal activities, using climate grids, using organized criminals, and other proxies to promote authoritarianism and weaken democracies. erode institutions and undermine the rule of law and global order. Russia and Iran and China continually work to gain access and gain control over strategic locations, critical minerals, ports, and other infrastructure, with the aim of becoming board operating bases for their military forces and intelligence agencies. The islands in the Pacific Rim have become a challenge in recent years that has corroded American influence in these countries and, of course, more globally. We continue to work across sectors with cutting edge research to help map these threat networks, to help the United States and its allies to really understand today's threat environment, to see the interconnections of illicit vectors. to pinpoint nodes of crime convergence, identify those gray zones that are being exploited by some of these malign state actors, and to track illicit rude supply chains and illicit financial flows that enable authoritarians to weaken democracies. So we hope that these challenges or relays will drive further analyses and investigations to disrupt illicit threat networks and their...00:07:10 MARIAH YAGERHey, David, thank you so much. The Criminality Index, how were those calculated? How did that data come together?00:07:19 DAVID LUNAThis is the Organized Crime Index that was developed by the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organized Crime. Without getting too much in the weeds of their methodology, they do look at various baskets of data sets from different international organizations. different governments to share more of their methodology.00:07:41 MARIAH YAGERAnd on that, I did post your white paper that you mentioned, and then these slides and your remarks, so everyone can look through the different sources. I mean, there's just some great resources there, from ACLED to some of the track stuff, so I will get those available.00:07:57 DAVID LUNAAnd we also emphasize that despite many successes within the law enforcement community, Global criminality and corruption has expanded greatly today compared to even a decade ago. Illicit entrepreneurial networks collectively continue to exploit the lucrative illicit economies, which, according to some estimates, are between 7 % to 15 % of the world's economy, or up to $20 trillion a year. They really go towards criminal networks. and they contribute to expanding these illicit economies. $20 trillion a year, that is staggering. Equally concerning, adversaries such as Russia, China, Iran, underwrite armed conflicts and malign operations against Western democracies and free markets. Among the reason local conflicts no longer end is that they are supported by illicit threat networks. For example, paramilitary groups supported by criminal opportunists, profit -driven, illicit companies who exploit conflict, and instability to expand criminal economies. In fact, rampant corruption and the violence wrought by organized criminals and terrorist networks help to soften the conditions for insecurity that are exploited to weaken other fragile governments. The state capture aided by criminality and strategic use of corruption results in democracies sliding into optocracies and through proxies helped to start and expand conflicts of regional insecurity. For example, if we look at Russia's Wagner group, who had assisted in a series of coups in Africa that had brought some lundas to power or enabled further optocracies to raid. In exchange, Proxies now rod global high -value commodities in those countries and allow for autocrats to remain in power. In the Central African Republic, Wagner's successors continue to employ active measures to disrupt African efforts to move their countries from violent conflict to stability by moving money and weapons around the continent through an intricate web of shell companies and through criminal networks that specialize in illicit trafficking and legal trading. and sanctions busting. What results is chaos, furthering the corruptive influence of extremist insurgencies in many cases, or regime protection of authoritarians who have faced sanctions and condemnations, including for their human rights abuses. Some of the dirty money that is derived by Russian mercenaries in Africa have helped Russia bypass global sanctions to fund its war in Ukraine, or to support political upheavals. paramilitary misadventures in the Middle East, the Balkans, and forward Soviet republics. Inland America, Russian proxies are selling some of the more advanced surveillance technologies to state and non -state actors across the hemisphere, greatly enhancing their ability to monitor and attack political enemies, law enforcement, officials, anyone else that they perceive as a threat. And as many experts correctly pointed out, Russia remains a criminalized state, led by a ruthless and thugish godfather. In fact, the Russian mafia is an extension of the Putin regime in advancing Russia's national interests overseas, and as an instrument of power operating in the shadows, elicit facilitators, super -fixers to other criminal networks. Russian cybercriminals not only penetrate businesses, it steals. trade secrets and bonds, but also to launch cyberattacks against enemies of the Gremlin. The Siloviki, too, may be asked to engage in kidnappings or assassinations on behalf of their masters in Moscow. Finally, one last point related to Russia. While annexation of Crimea and the recent invasion of Ukraine have significantly affected regionalized economies, Russian criminal networks continue to aid Russian intelligence and special forces in smuggling needed weapons and technology. Obviously, this undermines Western sanctions and transport bans for highly sought consumer goods and helps to londer the assets of Russian countergrants and oligarchs in places like Dubai, London, New York, and Western capitals. Now let me focus for a few minutes on the bigger threat. China. According to FBI Director Christopher Wray, China has become the biggest threat to our national security and to the homeland. This is not because of the global ambitions and active involvement of transnational crimes, but also through political interference operations. China's involvement in expanding illicit economies around the world has a triple whammy effect. Yet, first of all, it increases tremendous illicit wealth. hurts U .S. national security, American competitiveness, and innovation. Finances showing this ambition to become the predominant superpower by 2049. President Xi has openly stated, he would like China to become that predominant power. Through our research and through other institutions like the Terrorism Transnational Crime and Corruption Center, the CCP has leveraged corruption, illicit markets, Predatory crime to become the world's largest player in almost every sector of transnational crime, including counterfeits, trafficking of weapons, humans, wildlife, illegally harvest timber, fish, natural resources, the theft of IP, and trade secrets, illicit tobacco, organ harvesting, and other crimes. Several trillion U .S. dollars in the list of proceeds every year are generated from productive fences for money laundering that touch China's jurisdictions and markets and are often used to finance China's authoritarian regime. According to our ICAO research, China may very well be the biggest money laundering hub in the world. So, on so many fronts, China poses a serious geopolitical and organized criminal threat. Given its proximity to make money on crime and laundering dirty monies for drug cartels or other counterparts, terrorists, sanctioned rogue states, and other pariahs, China has also helped Russia, Iran, and others evade international sanctions, including on oil exports. threats will continue to garner more attention across different illicit industries driven by China as they continue to expand across the developing world. In Latin America and in Panama, for example, China is leveraging bribery of government officials to win concessions to control the port and other critical infrastructure along the Panama Canal. Alarmingly, China already controls or operates in more than 40 ports across Latin America. In many of these ports, the Chinese triads are also quite active. As the former Salcom commander testified a few years ago, China continues to be the number one underwriter for the Mexican drug cartels and other criminal networks. In Venezuela, China is firmly supported to corrupt the Jura regime. not only because of its access and investment in the oil sector, but because it truly is a strategic partner to counter American influence. If we look at Canada in recent years, it has become a crime convergence zone, a foreign operation pump for some of the most notorious criminal networks, including for the Mexican cartels, the Chinese syndicates, and for Hezbollah financial. If we were to look at the so -called CCP police stations in North America, as certain investigative journalists have done in recent months, we have a nexus of PRC intelligence services operators converging with local Chinese triads, often with syndicates. Such police stations are physically and mentally projecting Beijing's political power. They are connected to... underground, casinos, human trafficking, and other illicit trade. And again, find the uses of triads to foment insecurity and illegality of democracies, including through diasporic communities. Through economic coercion, China is also buying highlands across the Caribbean, for example, in Antigua and Barbuda, building special economic zones, and likely planning to use these commercial outposts for military purposes. As we know, in the U .S. Indo -Pacific Command Theater, BRC efforts have destabilized, for example, the Solomon Islands, undermined democracy in the northern Mariana Islands and other Pacific Rim Islands. As democracy weakens across the Pacific Rim Islands, China pounces and expands its influence through strategic corruption to advance their multi -polar agenda. We see the Chinese with a lot of influence as well in Myanmar as they work with the junta to build fentanyl factories, which again helps to fund more global online influence for CCP Inc. And China continues to build military bases on several islands, for example in the spread of the islands in the south, which contravene international law. These opposed bases and airfields continue to expand the offensive capability of China beyond their continental shores to gain control over disputed territories. In fact, one can argue that China's Belt and Road Initiative, the BRI, is intended to finance economic, trade, and military expansion all around the world, and as a result of the BRI. No -ling sectocrats continue to just simply align their pockets and continue to provide China with the global footprint to again expand their multi -polar agenda. If you were to overlay the BRI with some of these jurisdictions with high corruption, with democracy, as well as organized crime, you see that the Chinese tribes are always behind the expansion policies of China. So it's this confluence of social security interests. We're ensuring that Russia and Iran continue to strengthen intelligence, military ties to weak and democratic institutions, expand illicit economies, and bolster autocratic governance around the world.00:19:05 MARIAH YAGERWhat do you see as the most promising way forward? Specifically, do you see as a significant part of the solution, implementation of the 2023? DoD's strategy for operations in the information environment, which argues for a whole of government's integrated campaign across the competition continuum, which includes the gray zone.00:19:25 DAVID LUNAYeah, I think it's all of that, frankly. I do think we need our intelligence community needs to really look more closely these overlays as well. To be able to articulate the interconnections, corruption, money, laundry, crime. We got to understand a panorama to be able to breathe the U .S. Congress to have more resources, right? It is about more resources to build capacities as well. Economic development, you know, and again, I mentioned the G7 initiative, but I don't think it's been funded. I could be wrong, but not more than 10, 15%. Whereas China is investing hundreds of billions of dollars all over the world. Not only through the strategic use of corruption and bribing collective grads, but in developing some of their critical infrastructure, which, again, they're able to have access and control not only for themselves, but other aligned authoritarian guard guards and their criminal network proxies. So resources, I think, is very important. But we need to get Congress to really see these interconnections a little bit more strategically. So what do we do about this? We must innovate, no doubt. We must ensure a more anticipatory approach. So we need to really underscore the importance of sharing threat intelligence in a timely manner to mitigate these harms. We must also make sure that we devote the requisite investments necessary to counter these collective transnational security networks. We might want to consider... Developing an interagency or even a Department of Defense of regular warfare special action teams to counter malign influence and strategic transnational threats so that we can stabilize and countering such malign influence. These could be rapid response strike forces. Again, there will be developed to investigate and prosecute these webs of foreign bribery, strategic corruption, and cross -border criminality to ensure that we reinforce the rule of law in our partner nations. In closing these data sets and overlaying, we do begin to see the interconnections of various threats. I think it does become very important. to develop these more innovative irregular warfare frameworks to counter strategic corruption and criminality.00:22:02 MARIAH YAGERAssuming that local and national level law enforcement and regulatory agencies are the first line of detection and defense against these gray zone illicit activities, how might we better integrate those to get a better picture of the totality of the methods to disrupt those activities?00:22:19 DAVID LUNAOur U .S. embassies, a lot of them have law enforcement working groups. I mentioned the need for these special action teams to counter malign influence and strategic use of corruption as well by helping our partners in some of these nations to be able to investigate not only corruption, but to prosecute, to be able to track the corrupt payments that they receive to enable China, for example, to have more access and control. And then Jack gave this a good opportunity to talk a little bit more about an idea that we had been brainstorming with others on these special action teams. Jack?00:23:00 JACK GAINESI'm here. The white paper describes a minimum viable product for how the National Guard and the service reserves can further help U .S. and partner nation law enforcement counter adversaries and malign competitors to work to diminish U .S. and international rule of law and advance their nation's foreign policy goals. builds off of current Title 10 and 32 operations to support law enforcement. It just expands their reach and capability. The paper highlights areas where the Guard and Reserve could bring in professional specialties to expand law enforcement operations. Everything from investigations to prosecutions by creating special action teams that work directly for a law enforcement lead. It's very similar to a law enforcement special supervisory agent working at an agency, having teams of investigators and agents working on different cases. But in this scenario, the law enforcement lead would have guard and reserve teams built to support the investigations. And that would be in helping our partners and allies in the U .S. territories defend against state -sponsored criminality. For example, if an agent needs a financial fraud investigator or multiple investigators, The Guard and Reserve have them. An agent needs building evidence packets. Same thing. We have specialists that do that. These skills are available all the way after bringing in federal judges and attorney generals who can consult on judicial processes or even coordinate outreach to support a case. And these skills are available because the Guard and Reserves bring in people with these skills from their civilian careers. And I get it. Once they're in uniform, they're soldiers. More often than not, the military takes people with specialized civilian skills and asks them to use those skills for supporting a mission. In my civil affairs command, an assistant district attorney, he is working in Europe, working on special legal matters that only his civilian skills could have brought to the fight. And the paper recommends using those types of skills to help law enforcement because they're overwhelmed right now by adversaries using criminality. to expand their work, and to better counter the current threat.00:25:13 MARIAH YAGERSo regarding the proposed framework, how does this differ from the existing organized crime drug enforcement task forces that are multi -agency, investigator -led, intel -driven efforts?00:25:25 DAVID LUNAThis would reinforce some of these other mechanisms, some of the other testers, but it's an opportunity to leverage the great expertise and skills of the reserve, as Jack was talking about. but to specifically focus on malign influence networks. It means strategic hotspots. But the Pacific Islands, for example, I think we need to be expanding more resources and having these more strategic teams that includes law enforcement. But again, this whole government approach, whole society, leveraging State Department, leveraging USA. and others to be able to strengthen the capacities, to be able to resist the economic coercion by China, Russia, Iran, and others.00:26:17 JACK GAINESHey, David, can I jump in for a second? Yes, of course. Okay. The special action teams are different than what we already have at the Jayad of Sinjiktik because they would be able to work on ground as their military. So they could go to the embassies, they could go into the field. They could do narcotics monitoring or reporting. They could do intelligence sharing with partner nations. They could go work with the foreign security officers. They can work with the military liaison on actually working with partner nations law enforcement on building prosecution packets, investigative efforts, international law issues. For Title 32 example, the Marianas right now, the governor is asking for help with investigations and prosecutions against the PRC. as well as by the locals who are enabling folks from China coming in and slipping over to Guam. He does not have the resources. He is asking for help. And by bringing him National Guard members who are everything from agents to special agents to financial fraud, criminal investigators, and maritime security, it would build up his ability to slow or even stop criminal encroachment into the Marianas and then make it harder for China to then forward its goals of causing the Marianas to vote out people like the governor, bringing people that are PRC -friendly, and then shifting the whole region away from the United States over to the PRC orbit.00:27:43 MARIAH YAGERTo add on that, does your concept for the special action teams include follow -up stability activities to actually replace what we seek to disrupt or eliminate?00:27:52 JACK GAINESA few years ago, I'd sent a recommendation for CJTF Horn of Africa to build a law enforcement task force. And it was a combination of military and law enforcement leads coming into the Order of Africa, specifically focused on that issue of once we pull out an illicit network, how do we build in reforms so that those actors cannot come back? Or if a nation had a coup and they threw out a dictator that was also an oligarch or an autocrat that was stealing all the resources, how do we bring in teams that can support? building in reforms and legal checks and balances so that nation can represent the people and the economy. There are forms of doing that. By civil affairs background, I usually defer to the people who do stability operations and transition operations.00:28:42 MARIAH YAGERThank you. This idea of corruption being one of the center issues just resonates so much about China and their activities in South and Central America, their roles. And how are they exacerbating and taking advantage of the situation? And a lot of it tends to come back to corruption. And so if you were to want some of these anti -corruption measures, what specifically you might recommend?00:29:12 DAVID LUNAYeah, we have to be doing more investigations. We've got to be tracking more of the cryptocratic assets, especially since this is where Russia or China are providing. Some of these fragile democracies are even more, you know, top scenes, right? Given the scale of DOD and its resources, working across the interagency to make anti -corruption a higher priority in this very complex environment and not only DOD, but the intelligence community and encourage the intelligence community to look at the strategic overlays of corruption money laundering.00:29:48 JACK GAINESHere's a very specific. Example, this came from Cleo Pascal, who writes for Freedom for Democracies and submitted a paper to the Air University on the Marianas. And basically, her investigation found that the Chinese citizens enjoy visa -free travel to the Marianas, which is a U .S. territory. So they take direct flights from Hong Kong, come into the Marianas without a visa, and then they disappear. Some of them show up in the Solomons. Some of them show up in Guam. Some of them disappear into the casinos, and then they are later arrested for walking on the military base, found in criminal networks, working drug shipments through U .S. postal systems, or working in political influence and using money to bribe people or support pro -PRC political parties. A lot of them get into Cuba trafficking. A lot of them get into casinos for money laundering. They're using that poorest border to gain access. And then they're going into the southern islands and they're using drugs and gambling and money laundering and human trafficking to build cash that they give to politicians that support the PRC or don't necessarily have a position at all. They groom them. They use propaganda and campaigns to get them elected. And then, like in the Solomons, suddenly they start shifting away from the U .S. orbit into more PRC -favorable ones, which, as a result, Solomons no longer allows Coast Guard to port. They don't even allow the Peace Corps to come in. So that's what we're talking about, is that flow of people that becomes criminality, and then that supports the political regime change from within.00:31:31 DAVID LUNACanada is being decimated by Chinese law firm, not only by the Chinese state. by the triads just harassing, doing hostile actions to corrupt and destabilize Canada, to divide Canada from the U .S. So this is happening in other places as well, but we should be looking more closely at what China and other authoritarian states are doing in Canada.00:32:00 MARIAH YAGERAll right. I wanted to get into lawfare. How are we looking at the use of lawfare? as part of this and maybe where does that fit within DOD?00:32:10 JACK GAINESMost of what we're promoting here is what's considered defense lawfare. Investigating, prosecuting, adversarial actions through criminality. There are offensive lawfare techniques. Say we want to target South Sudan because the leader is a criminal. All he does is create chaos and conflict and steal the resource to make money. An offensive lawfare option would be to map his illicit money that's hidden in Western banks in case he ever gets a coup against him and loses his power. To map that money and then go in and start negotiating with him for either him to have a peaceful, free, fair election and then transition out. Or we take the money and we stop him from doing any future types of banking with the Western nations. So it's that type of reverse extortion, as I call it. the types of lawfare operations that can happen. I can't tell you if they have or not. I know that Angola's former dictator, when he left power, there were agreements that part of the money that he had stolen would go back towards NGOs to build up a more representative democracy and check some balances in that country. So there are ways to go at it. We can discuss that at another time.00:33:25 DAVID LUNAIf you look at the website of the U .S. Chamber of Commerce, These sovereign wealth funds, who are often associated with some of these authoritarian states, are abusing American courts to be able to harass our corporations, to use discovery as well, to obtain IP and sensitive trade information as well.00:33:48 MARIAH YAGERAll right. Thank you for addressing those last couple of points. I really appreciate that. So to our audience, thank you so much for joining us today. And I posted the white paper, the slides. So, Ms. Julina, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you.00:34:05 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
-
Today, we welcome back the author, actor, public speaker, Ret. Lt Colonel Scott Mann to discuss his new book "Nobody is Coming to Save You" https://scottmann.com/
The website Nobody is Coming to Save You is a practical guide for leaders who want to make a bigger impact in the world now. It distills what I’ve learned over my three-decade career as a Green Beret into strategies you can use to lead others through hard change. These are the same tactics Green Berets use to get vital stuff done when stakes are high and conditions impossible. You’ll also learn about human behavior, strategic influence and dynamic storytelling because relationships are rocket fuel for getting big sh*t done.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to Ahimsaz for the sample of “Shahamat." Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wmoH-fHhwQ
---
Transcript
00:00:01 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Please welcome retired Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann.00:00:39 JACK GAINESAs a Green Beret, Scott designed and led the local village stability operations program in Afghanistan. After leaving the military, he began to focus on using his experience with the struggle of transition from a fast -paced, high -risk lifestyle to civilian world of work and family. As a result, he launched Hero's Journey to help other service members, first responders, and their families cope with post -crisis trauma through storytelling. Scott also wrote and featured in the play and film Last Man Out, which portrays the impacts of war on our veterans and their families. Additionally, after Kabul fell to the Taliban, Scott and others launched Task Force Pineapple Express to help Afghan partners leave the country. Scott has made three appearances on TEDx to discuss his work with veterans and first responders and is now announcing his new book, No One is Coming to Save You, which will be released in October. So enjoy. Your book is coming out. It is. In October, right? October 1. October 1. It's a great book. I really liked how you took the turn. This is a lot of different things that the ESM would diagnose as issues with. adaptability, with coping skills, general anxiety, you were able to successfully build them down into a thing you call the churn. And that's really, really helpful because if I told somebody they have a bipolar and anxiety complexity disorder, they'd be like, what in the hell are you talking about? But if you say you're stuck in the churn, which is a culmination of all these different types of things they're struggling with. you created an object, you gave it a name, and it gave them a way for people's minds to focus on that and identify it. And then by doing that, preying on how to separate themselves from the churn and give themselves a break, give themselves some air so that they can recover a little bit. Because with any kind of condition that people are struggling with, they have to learn how to separate themselves from it in order to grow, to heal.00:02:45 SCOTT MANNYeah, it's well said. And the thing is, I've been working on the book for years, and most of the books I've written have been either about Afghanistan or they've been about veteran transition. And a lot of folks have been after me to write a nonfiction, story -based, narrative -based book on how did we do Pineapple? How did we do Last Out? Because I don't have a title. I don't have authority. I don't have a lot of resources. Yet those were strategically impactful things, just like DSO. How did I do that? And so I decided to write a book, a very quick read, called Nobody's Coming to Save You. which was the rally cry in most SFA camps throughout history, but you can still get big shit done. And this is what this is. It's kind of a guide to getting big shit done. And to your point about the churn, the thing is, and this is Ivan Tyrrell again, he says that the brain is a metaphorical pattern matching organ and it has a mandate to make sense of the world. So metaphor and story is how the brain makes sense, right? And this is another reason that we want to be storytellers. And what I found is, for example, The Democrat or Republican sitting across from you at the holiday dinner table is not the enemy. The person that cuts you off in traffic is not the enemy. The person who wears a mask or doesn't wear a mask and points their finger at you is not the enemy. The person on LinkedIn that disagrees with your political opinion is not the enemy. The churn is the enemy. And I characterize the churn as the antagonist in this book. It is both an external and internal condition within our civil society that is novel and new. And it's something that we just have not faced as a country until the last five, 10 years. And we see versions of the churn over in Afghanistan, in Iraq, where tribal dynamics at play in groups and out groups. And you've also got your own internal resistance that you're dealing with. And that's just the nature of being in that roiling, churning environment. But it's weird to see it here in the United States, where we are supposed to be a society of abundance and rule of law. And out of many come one. And much of that has fallen away. And it was in that dark period of my transition that I saw, wow, there's a churn right here at home. And as Sebastian Younger says, most combat veterans are willing to die for their country, but they have no idea how to live for it because it's hard to know how to live for a country that's tearing itself apart along every imaginable line from race to economics to religion. And that is my assessment, the churn and that division, that distrust, that disengagement. As humans, we have an obsession for imitation. Back in the traditional world, we imitated animals when we thought animal pelts. Well, now we're obsessed with imitating machines. And the left hemisphere of our brain is obsessed with control while the right hemisphere is obsessed with the connection to the natural world. And the left has always worked for the right. But according to a lot of neuroscientists, it's flipped because of these things. We've become so obsessed with this represented reality that we've lost our connection to the natural world. And so my book starts off by framing the enemy. That's the first special ops imperative. Always understand your operational environment. Well, our operational environment has changed. What got us here is not going to get us there. So I take about one third of the book to lay out, look, your operating environment is different. And it's not just about transitioning from military to civilian. The civil society we live in. is different externally and internally. And if you don't know that, then you are at risk of being lured into shadow tribalism and a range of other things. If you do know it, the antibody to it is an understanding and appreciation of the human operating system. Another metaphor I use is the iceberg, right? So you've got the iceberg versus the churn and getting below the waterline of that iceberg part you can't see. That's where the innate human realities reside that we can leverage.00:06:32 SCOTT MANNstorytelling, empathy, active listening, breath, a range of things that are available to us. They're innate. They're already in us. Our ancestors knew, but we need to access them in a new way with an improved understanding of how our environment has changed so that we can lead with those things. And the cool thing is, and I'll end on this for this question, is that that's available to all of us, whether you're working in diplomacy right now, whether you're working in civil affairs right now, or whether you are transitioned and you're trying to just lead your family, most people are victims of the churn. And if you have a language and a grammar for it, and if you have an understanding of the human operating system and a practicality and how you can engage using old school or personal skills, you can lead your way pretty much out of anything without a time.00:07:20 JACK GAINESOne brilliant point you had in there was that the person on the social media that's Leaving comments is not your enemy. A person who cuts you off is not your enemy. Because if you are stuck in a churn, it triggers that they are the enemy because it's your natural instinct that they've wronged you and you have to defend yourself. So by separating the person from that sense, you can back away from potential fights, road rage, getting arrested. It does. Yeah.00:07:50 SCOTT MANNAnd all of that could happen. Think about how we're trained in these rough places around the world to respond, and the responses that have been ingrained in us are not necessarily appropriate for responses in our civil society here at home. Yet, the way in which our body physiologically responds, it goes into a trance state. We enter a sympathetic state of fight, flight, or freeze. Our bodies have been preconditioned to fight. Our bodies have been preconditioned to lean into the problem in a very aggressive way, for example. And that's a primal response that has been infused with training. Okay. Well, here, if you're watching your 401k erode over six months, kind of response that we were trained to do is not appropriate. Is to go burn down the hedge fund. Yeah. The reality is, so what's actually happening there is that trance state that Ivan Terrell talks about. We all go into it. A trance state is just a state of hyper -focus. And the churn has created these conditions all around us where people are in it all the time. And when you go into a trance state and get a secondary emotion of anger, anger makes you stupid. Anger reduces your higher intelligence functions. You can't look with a shared perspective. You're trying to survive. And so what are we going to do for those of us who have trained a certain way? It's not good. And so we have to manage our energy. We have to manage the energy in the room. And it starts, I believe, when emotions are low by reading about and learning about the charm that's out there and this human operating system that's old and primal within us and is going to act on us one way or the other. And the more that we can appreciate the human operating system and reconnect to it, the more we can manage our own energy in a possible way within this new context that we live in. and be the most relevant, relatable person in the room. Those skills that we learned in the military all of a sudden truly then become very relevant. But if we can't manage the churn or read it for what it is and then manage our energy and those around us, we will be a pawn for the divisionist leaders that are out there just like everybody else.00:10:09 JACK GAINESThat's a great point. That churn of feeling like it's coming at you from every angle. allows people who do work in information and influence to then say, okay, you're all wound up. Here's the bad guy. And then have them lunge at that person or that issue and explode all that energy that they've been building up on a problem. It goes after what I want them to do versus them thinking through an issue and actually coming up with their own position, either agreeing or dissenting on what I want.00:10:37 SCOTT MANNIt's a very good definition of what I call divisionist leaders in the book. It's at a basic level that the civil society we live in here in the West is based on the individual. The individual is above the group. Well, in most places of the world and where we all come from, the group is above the individual. Status society is where we all come from. Just like any other mammal, it's for the good of the group because it's the only way you can acquire resources, maintain resources, find a mate. It's all within your circle, your tribe, your quam. And the group is above the individual. Well, in America and other places, we put the individual above the group. That's not a natural state of affairs. Which is why cults are so popular. Yes. And it's also why leadership is so essential and why a lot of social scientists say that you need for a democracy or a republic to survive that way. You need social capital where you have faith in each other and trust as neighbors. You need institutions that you can. have trust in and then you need stories that you tell each other and the outside world that you believe in right how are we doing on that we are really struggling with all of those so as a result they've abandoned that stewardship of bridging and then instead they practice this divisionist approach where they foment instability from the president all the way down both parties to meet their own narrow agenda social media engineers Instagram and Facebook create algorithms that are designed to encourage us to share negative fear -based information about outgroups because they've done the studies and they know that we will share information faster if it's negative information about an outgroup. So in other words, you have engineers that have done deep research on in -group, out -group, tribal dynamics, and then they're using it. You orchestrate algorithms that will leverage in -group, out -group behavior. Now, that to me is insidious. That is a divisionist approach that is practiced in 24 -7 news. It's practiced in politics. It's practiced in social media. And if we're not careful as humans who are just moving along our day, we will enter into this represented world. It's not reality. It's a represented reality. It's not the natural world. And that world is their world. 24 -7 news is the world of the divisionist. It's not an even plank. And so it's so easy to just get sucked into that trance state where the primal condition visits you, and all of a sudden, you're just as tribal as anybody, and you are dealing with contempt and moral superiority. That's the two things you always want to use as an indicator. Am I demonstrating contempt that I would normally reserve for enemies, and am I demonstrating rigidity and moral superiority? If you are, you are likely in a trance state and you've likely been mobilized. And so the book takes some time in the beginning to equip us with this grammar, with this framework, so that then you can step into that arena reconfigured for how you lead yourself and how you lead other people in these times that we live in and still get big shit done.00:13:55 JACK GAINESThe second half of the book is more of how to use the tools. to then go out and battle those issues. Simple things like how to do introductions, how to tell a story. One of the real gems of this book is the seven -act storytelling guide that you built because it goes down every step of how to tell a story from the beginning to drawing people in and how you use details, how you set up the issue, how you set up the solutions and what the future looks like. And it's something that's not often written about. Here people say storytelling is very important and they go to a story, but they don't really break down how you do that. Right. Well,00:14:36 SCOTT MANNlet me ask you this, Jack. Been around the game a long time, right? Yes, I am that old. But how would you characterize introductions in the world of the audience that you speak to on this podcast? Typically, when people introduce people from the stage, when they introduce them at mixers, I've been very underwhelmed by how we introduce humans to humans. But I'm curious on your thoughts on it. Yes.00:15:01 JACK GAINESI learned from Jordan Harbinger. He has a guide on how to present yourself in a room, how to make introductions, how to build connections and network. And I follow his introduction system because it's all about getting the background of the people that you're going to introduce, making sure that both of them want to be introduced, and then writing. an introduction that promotes and builds both of them up so they feel like a hero meeting the other person. I'll be honest, whenever I give someone an introduction, I am selling them as the coolest person on the planet and has helped people connect and make better relations. It's a sacred act because we're social creatures.00:15:40 SCOTT MANNsacred act because we're social creatures. We're wired to interact. But my assessment, and I'm glad to hear that you do that, my read on most of our community, and the more senior you get, the more we suck at introductions. to the point of it almost being insulting. The way some people introduce others from the stage, guest speakers, they read their bios word for word instead of talking to the audience about, hey, here's why I think this person that I've taken your time with today to have you be here, why I think they will serve what you are about in your life and why I think you should listen to them. The point here is that there are a range of innate interpersonal skills that are available to us as humans. that our great -grandparents understood and knew. But now that we have advancements in neuroscience, we can actually study brain activity when storytelling, active listening, introductions, when you're honoring somebody for an award or their departure from their organization. We can actually measure that. For example, David Phillips did a study called Death by PowerPoint, and he hooked audiences up to a machine. And he measured their brain activity during PowerPoint presentations where he learned that 90 % of the content that you present in a PowerPoint presentation, after you say thank you for your time, within 30 seconds, 90 % of it's forgotten because you're engaging working memory. You're not engaging long -term memory. Storytelling engages long -term memory, and it has for 70 ,000 years. That's why we remember the stories our grandparents tell us with vivid detail. or a story that a mentor from the Vietnam War told us with vivid detail. It's how we've survived and actually socially evolved as a species. We're wired as story animals. But yet, everything that we've created in the modern world is the opposite of that. It's short form communications. It's robot -like. And my hope with the book is to get back to the old school interpersonal skills and become very proficient in those and then... Let them inform all the stuff you do at the tip of the iceberg. And I'm not telling you to abandon PowerPoint. I'm saying inform PowerPoint with a narrative competency that holds your listener's attention with a story in the beginning and then you wrap the story up at the end of the presentation or populate the presentation with small stories throughout because the brain is a metaphorical pattern matching organ. If you don't know that as a senior leader. That the brain A has a mandate to make sense of the world and that the brain B does it through metaphor and narratives. You are at a competitive disadvantage and frankly, irrelevant to the people that you lead and engage with.00:18:23 JACK GAINESStorytelling. It's a great segue to your points about you struggle, we struggle. But if you don't add that struggle into your story and it's not authentic, people don't really believe you. And we've seen that. We've seen the sales pitch style of storytelling.00:18:39 SCOTT MANNHere's the thing, and I hear exactly what you're saying, and this is where I think our tip of the iceberg modern world unwittingly has conditioned us to the wrong approach to storytelling. Everywhere you look, and senior leaders are really bad about this, and I hope that if there's any listening, you'll hear me on this. If what you do is get up there and talk about three ways to be great, it's just unwatchable. We are inundated with it everywhere we turn. And part of that reason is because we've been conditioned. in this modern, high -tech, mass media world. And it becomes performative. And storytelling can be performative, but storytelling in its oldest form, honestly. If I staggered into the campfire 10 ,000 years ago and I'm like, let me tell you guys why Saber 2 Tigers make shitty pets, you're going to lean in and you're going to listen. Sure. And when I get into the detail of my struggle and why I'm all scuffed up and cut up. then you listen autobiographically. You locate yourself in that story, and it is as if you went through that lived experience without going through it. I'm doing it now with the saber -tooth timer. Right, and that's called narrative transportation. Narrative transportation creates reciprocity. It creates meaning. It creates long -term memory. It accelerates the trust between the audience and the listener. But here's the thing. If you leave struggle out, and you go right to the three ways to be great like me, your audience will not only dismiss you, according to Dr. Kendall Haven, they will turn on you.00:19:28 JACK GAINESto lean00:20:11 SCOTT MANNwill turn on you. They will become a narrative insurgent to your story, to your keynote, to your vision, right? And so struggle is not only something that is necessary for storytelling, it's a biological necessity. And so the smart leader is going to find ways to integrate struggle. into their personal and their organizational narratives. And that's why I took a whole chapter to talk about it because it is that important. Well, it feels like you're giving people ammunition to shoot you with. Now, it feels awful, Jack. And a lot of people, that's when they go, well, I don't want to talk about me. I don't want to make it about me. A lot of veterans struggle with this. But what I tell them is, listen, this has nothing to do with you. Stories are told in the service of the listener. But if you don't invoke... your own personal struggle so that they can achieve a level of relatability of what she's been through, where that young soldier goes, oh, wow, she's just like me. She's been through what I've been through. Then that emotional breach happens and they open up. So there are so many different reasons. And I think the chapter really hits it hard. But suffice it to say that for this podcast, if you are going to engage people and move in a strategic way, struggle is a biological necessity to that process. Nice.00:21:33 JACK GAINESYou created a whole TED Talk around being generous with your scars. I really enjoyed the TED Talk, by the way. One, because it did show how challenges and struggles do build towards a better future, but also in how you treated the other actors. Because every time you cut scenes, you guys kind of like fist bumped or handshaked or some type of good job thing. And that showed me that it's more than just scene break. It's actually people. in as a team performing it to succeed.00:22:04 SCOTT MANNYou're the first person that's ever picked up on that. I really appreciate that. And you're right. And they were all veterans, except for one, and she was a military family member. That was my third TED Talk that I had done, and I wanted them to be in that one. Because it was tough to talk about my mental health, and they had been essential in me dealing with it and getting the play on its feet. And we had toured at that point all over the country. So we all have this very deep bond. And you're right to pick up on that because the generosity of scars is what I characterize as the integration struggle. It is the repurposing of one's struggle in the service of others by telling your story. That's what I mean by being generous with your scars. If you are generous with your struggle. and you share it with the idea that someone else can locate themselves in their story and make meaning out of your suffering, out of your struggle, how can it get more generous than that? And that's what I had to realize with my mental health and with my challenges that I had gone through. If I could repurpose those struggles, and with the TED Talk, we had already done it with the play, but I wanted people to see it in a TED environment on full display, that even our darkest scars, the ones that are most embarrassing. can be repurposed in the service of others. Because our Gold Star families, our combat veterans, civilians who've been through things in their life, whether it's divorce or bankruptcy, all of those things hold immense value to the people that are out there trying to make sense of a very difficult world of churn. And if you're willing to repurpose, to be generous with your struggles, man, there's no limit, no ceiling to the impact you can have in this world.00:23:46 JACK GAINESWell, that gets to why I spotted a certain sentence in your book. Nowadays, we need to move large numbers of people rough times. Let's make it personal in order to make it universal. And I kind of called that your calling because you seem like you've gone to that dark spot. You've even teased with suicide. You worked through it. And like a good leader, now you're saying, hey, I'm there. I'm moving forward. I'll rally here. Let's all get together and do this. And it seems like you're trying to find and build a path for others to relieve the struggle of coping with their transition, with their challenges of life. And for people that weren't in the military, with all of the churn and the problems coming in so that they can see that, hey, there are alternatives. There are things that you can do better yourself, your community, and get past what people are trying to drive you towards anger and conflict.00:24:42 SCOTT MANNYeah, I appreciate that. I go back to one of the first chapters in the book after we get past the churn and I talk about what my dad taught me and still teaches me with leaving tracks. And, you know, as meaning -seeking, meaning -assigning creatures, we are on this earth, I believe, to leave tracks, as my dad calls it. In other words, to leave a legacy that lasts well beyond our time. And maybe it's manifested in how we, as our kids, maybe it's the capacity that we build in our job. Maybe it's just the relationships that we build. in friendships and things like that. But however it manifests, those tracks, the metric that I always kind of use for them is that they don't just serve the people around you. They serve the people you've never even seen. And so for me, that's really helped me in terms of my journey that I'm on for the rest of the years that I have on this earth. I'm here to lead my track. And I work very diligently on getting clear on my tracks and continue to do that. And also recognize that I know I'm on the patrol just like anybody else. I don't feel like I'm done. I still am very much in the arena as an advocate, as a artist, as a leader, and in some regards. And my vision of my tracks is to pour myself into as many people as I can through a range of modalities from books to plays to workshops that we run live and help leaders who are really looking to make that larger impact get people up on the rooftop. and move in ways that they otherwise wouldn't go. And I do believe that I've found not the way, but a way to help folks do that and love it. I just love it so much. And I think the reason I love it is because I'm still making tons of mistakes. I'm still getting out there and learning new skills, like acting at age 51. I mean, you talk about the ultimate midlife crisis. Good Lord. But it's allowed me, Jack, to really get in there and mix it up with a range of industry performers who are just trying to do the same thing and to be able to just say, look, here's what I found along the way. What do you see? And just approach it like team guys after a mission or during a training exercise where you kind of pull each other aside and say, here's what I'm seeing. What do you think? And let's try this. I love it gives me such purpose. It gives me such fulfillment. And I'm just blessed, honestly, to be able to do that in transition and maybe help a few folks have not as dark a transition as I did and maybe get to fulfillment faster, whether that transitions from the military or the next job or whatever. We're all trying to make an impact. And if I can play a role in that, man, it's good stuff. I think you do.00:27:27 JACK GAINESyou do. And think about from the rooftop. It's a guide to self -agency. Because you were talking about getting big shit done. It's easy if you have a star or you have a colonel's eagle on your chest because you've been given the authority. But when you don't, the society has to choose you to lead. That make sense? Yes. Because if you were somebody else and they just didn't have that stuff, that X that makes a person attracting the crowd, then you'd be out there doing plays and it would have been a community hitter and it would have gone away because it didn't stick. So population is choosing you to lead. It does. Which is a much harder gig than coming in with an eagle. Yeah.00:28:09 SCOTT MANNOr a star. Yeah. Yeah, it is. But I do think it's what's warranted and needed today more than ever. And that's why it's such good news for people in the churn because most of us don't have stars. Most of us don't have eagles. And then even those who do or C -suites. I don't necessarily know that they're appreciating it and leveraging it to the way that they could. They're writing it too much. And so even if you do have those formal titles, you can still apply this methodology in a way that it moves people to want to go to the rooftop for you. Again, another metaphor that in Afghanistan, I saw time and time again, these teen guys and girls that would move and inspire through social capital. and vision and old school interpersonal skills when risk was low, these individuals to go up on a rooftop and fight when they were terrified and reluctant when risk was high. And that to me is the ultimate endeavor for a leader in any situation is building social capital infused with purpose when risk is low is so strong that people go up to a rooftop and take action when risk is high, not because they have to, but because they choose to. And if you can do that over and over again, whether it's a play, whether it's Pineapple Express, whether it's starting your business, whether it is putting that piece of music out there that you've always wanted, or just helping your child move through addiction, all of these things are something bigger than ourselves. All of these things are ways of leaving tracks. And the good news is, in my assessment, There is both an art and a science available to us in these unprecedented times of churn that we live in to do it. But we've got to train. It's not just instinct. What got us here is not going to get us there. Even the most high -performing, I think we've got to re -evaluate our operational environment. We've got to get a new grammar and a new lexicon for what we're dealing with. And we need to reconnect to this human operating system that's primal and is struggling to make sense of this churn. And once we can start to do that, then we can start to implement storytelling, active listening, nonverbal physicality, breath work, empathy. And by the way, this is not a Pollyanna thing. You know, I don't believe that what's in this book or my methodology is all about, you know, I'm okay, you're okay stuff. It is based on human connection, but it's infused with red lines and always standing your ground on what you believe in. I think that what we did with Pineapple Express and some other things demonstrates that. That it's not about just rolling over and going along to get along. Willingness to pick the lead and thrive, be successful. When it's hard. When it's hard. Right. And nobody else is coming. Because that's the ultimate time, honestly, to lead. When nobody else is coming. And to me, that's the point in which you step into the arena when everybody else steps back. When that tap on the shoulder comes and you're like, you've got to be kidding. You've got to be kidding me. Right now. You know, like that dude is way better than me or this girl over here should be doing this. Well, guess what? She's not. It's your turn now. It's your turn.00:31:20 JACK GAINESyour turn. All right. I've spoken everything I wanted to discuss. Is there anything else you want to pitch or bring up? Is there anything we missed?00:31:29 SCOTT MANNI appreciate the thoroughness in the work you did ahead of time. I think that's always evidenced. So I appreciate it. As a fellow podcast host, I know what that takes to do that. And so it's not lost on me. I do hope that people will back out the book when it comes out on October 1st. The easiest way to do it is scottman .com. All of my body of work is there. And I hope people stay connected. And if we could ever serve in any way on Open with Human Connection, the human operating system, the churn, we've got a range of things out there on it. A lot of them are free. As you go forward, if you remember anything from this interview is when all else fails, make a human connection. Make a human connection before anything. It could be eye contact. It could be a handshake. It could just be taking a breath and taking in the person in front of you. It could be asking how their kids are. You'll know. You get in there. But if we could just put human connections before everything else, that could have a massive impact in your ability to influence hard jobs. Because no one does. Everybody's so busy on their agenda and transactions that they forget to make a human connection first. And I think those are the people that follow in the times that are coming. Absolutely. Social capital is the oldest form of capital in the world. And it always will be. Well, thank you. This was terrific,00:32:47 JACK GAINESwas terrific, Scott. I'm glad you took all this time.00:32:49 SCOTT MANNYeah, for sure, man. Thank you so much. This is like the first book interview I've done. And so I appreciate everything you're doing to get it out there. And again, I hope folks will pick it up because I do think it's a very, very practical guide to getting big shit done. All right. Well, thank you very much. Absolutely. Thanks, pal. We'll talk to you soon.00:33:08 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. 1CA Podcast.
-
Today, Brain Hancock hosts Col. Jeffrey Fiddler to discuss his career and his experience at the Pentagon helping manage the DOD response to the COVID 19 outbreak.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at [email protected]
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---Special thanks to Natalia Lafourcade for the sample of Tú Sí Sabes Quererme (En Manos de Los Macorinos). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABLT6hdgEek
---
Transcript
00:00:01 IntroductionWelcome to the 1CA podcast. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website. at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.00:00:34 BRIAN HANCOCKI'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I will be your host for this session. Colonel Jeffrey Fiddler is a civil affairs officer with 34 years, thank you, sir, of combined enlisted and commissioned service. He has a master's degree in strategic studies and a master's and bachelor's degrees in criminal justice. On the civilian side, he is a special agent with the Department of Homeland Security. Colonel Fidler, welcome to the show. Great to be here, Brian. Thanks for having me. I tell you, sir, with all of that experience you have in both infantry and military police, who actually rolls with more firepower than an infantry company, I'm making you think you just like to fire guns. Oh, yeah. Love shooting guns. Fair enough. So I'm going to ask you a little bit about your civil affairs journey in a moment, but let me give out the quick disclaimer here. A reminder to the audience, all of the remarks of the participants are solely ours. Now, sir, I met you here in Europe when you replaced the legendary Tony Vaja as chief of the civil affairs division at U .S. Army Europe and Africa. Boy, a lot has happened since then. It has.00:01:41 JEFFREY FIDDLER has. A lot has changed. First of all, Colonel Vaja is great. Tough guy to replace. As you know, Brian, he was the DCO of the 353KCOM when I was in brigade command. So I got to know Tony for two years. We would talk at least a couple of times a week. The institutional knowledge that he has is just amazing. It's unbelievable. It really is. So I still talk to Tony to this day.00:02:03 BRIAN HANCOCKTony to this day. And there's so many rich reasons why you join civil affairs. But the quality of the people you meet on that journey, I think, is one of the things that keeps us in this field. Absolutely. Yeah. So when I first got here,00:02:16 JEFFREY FIDDLER we were G39. We had SEMA, Space, IO, Civil Affairs, PSYOP, Brigadier General Ellis, who's... Selected for major general, our old boss, our old boss's boss, he wanted to separate all those divisions out. So we're now fully functional G3 civil affairs division, which is interesting for USRAF because the 06 lead is going to be a comp of three person going forward, which is a little different from some of the other directorates and divisions that you see here in USRAF. Yeah.00:02:48 BRIAN HANCOCKWell, given the breakout, I wonder if they're just going to add a G9 shop at some point. I thought about that. The two -star level, certainly we have a G9 shop. Yeah. I'm currently filling a G9 billet for the 79 Theater Support Command. So that would not surprise me, especially given the importance that civil affairs plays in CIMIC and in competition and in all of the setting, the theater and shaping operations that we're doing right now. Absolutely. I went back and forth on that because I had talked to General Ellis about that.00:03:12 JEFFREY FIDDLER and forth on that because I had talked to General Ellis about that. The reason why I like being in the G3 is that we have all the integrating cells, the G33, G35. Right. And for long -term planning, we do have an officer, Major George Warren. He's embedded with the G5 downstairs. And the reason why I like being in the G3 is that any organization that you go to, the three shop is the center of gravity. Always. So when those emergent missions come up, like Cyprus or the Greek floods, anything even remotely related to civil affairs, even in an infantry mindset or whatever, they look over to us and then we get the tap on the shoulder, which is pretty cool for the soldiers in the division.00:03:52 BRIAN HANCOCKin the division. Well, you must be doing something right to have that kind of demand signal. So well done. It's just luck. I'd rather be lucky than good in the final analysis. So I appreciate that. Yeah. Now, one of the things that I personally love about civil affairs is that since we are a non -accessions branch and Of course, in the Marine Corps, it's a B -billet for the officers. So while they're non -commissioned officers can be a civil affairs officer for their career, they cannot on the officer side. So there's a lot of rotation and change in both the Army and the Marine Corps on the officer side, which basically means almost every civil affairs officer that you meet is different, has different skill sets, has a different career path, a lot of awesome diversity, I think, that we have in the branch. And so let me turn to your story. You commissioned as an infantry officer in the 90s. And now you're a civil affairs officer. How did you get here?00:04:50 JEFFREY FIDDLER So I think it was right after the surge in Iraq. And that was when they took a lot of the chemical folks because I was at the time. Made a mayor defense artillery. Yeah.00:04:57 BRIAN HANCOCKat the time.00:05:00 JEFFREY FIDDLER So I was voluntold like, hey, you're going to go down to Fort Liberty. You're going to go to CA school. And then all started before that, I was in the Massachusetts Army National Guard and very tough to get promoted. Yeah, a few slots. Yeah, a few slots. So after Operation Noble Eagle, when we did all the defense of the bases, I transferred over to the Army Reserve,00:05:12 BRIAN HANCOCKa few slots.00:05:21 JEFFREY FIDDLER had to pick up a basic branch that the Army Reserve had, which is an infantry. People out in the audience might know there is one infantry battalion in the Army Reserve. I didn't know that. I was thinking the Guard,00:05:31 BRIAN HANCOCKdidn't know that. I was thinking the Guard, but I didn't realize we had it in the Compo 3.00:05:33 JEFFREY FIDDLER but I didn't realize we had it in the Compo 3. Yeah, no, there's one infantry battalion in the Army Reserve, and it's out in Hawaii. A good friend of mine, Alan Perkins, Lieutenant Colonel Alan Perkins, just commanded that, but that's a whole separate story. So you want to talk about IDT travel, he had to fly from Boston to Hawaii for drill weekend. He probably hated that. Yeah, he probably did. But it's the only infantry battalion in the Army Reserve. All right. So we needed those influx of CA officers. So I got orders to go down there and went to school and the rest is history.00:05:35 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah,00:05:51 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah, he probably00:06:01 BRIAN HANCOCKhistory. You've spent most of your career in infantry law enforcement and the chemical corps. How do those fields assist you in your civil affairs work?00:06:14 JEFFREY FIDDLER Well, two things come to mind. In the infantry, you have those type A personalities. And I'm not saying I am one, but you have to be aggressive in the infantry. For us as civil affairs to show our relevancy, you have to be aggressive. Agreed. If you sit back and wait for something to happen, you're going to be marginalized. Right. You're going to watch your budget go,00:06:32 BRIAN HANCOCKYou're going to watch your budget go, dude.00:06:34 JEFFREY FIDDLER Yeah. Exactly. So you've got to show some type of relevancy to that maneuver commander. So you don't necessarily have to be infantry to start up, but I think you need to be an aggressive officer. Like we say in the civil affairs division, we're not taking the foot off the gas pedal.00:06:47 BRIAN HANCOCKRight. We're just going to keep on pushing forward. You know, that's one of the things I also I've noticed about civil affairs formation, even at the civil affairs. action team cat level foreman and army doctrine. These folks are always volunteering for missions. They're always making suggestions. They're not waiting to be tasked to solve a problem that they think they can help and add value. They're speaking up. They're going to the three. They're going to the fire's chief. They're going to whoever and saying, hey, you know, I think we can help you with that problem. And they're very aggressive. And that makes them one of the hardest working and highest op tempo groups as a slice enabler. to combat arms in combat operations. But that's about a return on investment and earning your pay. So I agree. I think now more than ever, with some civil affairs battalions going away, there's force reduction in the army in general. It's not just civil affairs. I think now more than ever, we have to beat those folks who ship up and add value at every level of war to make sure that we're not only achieving tactical battlefield success, but we're also... achieving operational and ultimately strategic success so we don't keep going back and repeating crisis after crisis. Yes.00:06:47 JEFFREY FIDDLER We're just going to00:07:57 JEFFREY FIDDLER And I think on the law enforcement side, one of the things that they're looking for for training is negotiation training. Yeah. How do you do that? And I think in law enforcement, if you're a decent law enforcement officer, you've got to know how to negotiate with people. And I think for civil affairs, that's a huge thing for us because we're really that connective tissue between the civilian populace and the military. We saw that just recently down in Cyprus, that you dealt with a pretty big problem set getting humanitarian assistance into Gaza, and you have a lot of international players everywhere. IGOs that are over there that want to do something, NGOs, different militaries from other countries. How do you pull all that together? You have to have some kind of negotiation training, or have done that in the past, and I think a lot of us have in civil affairs.00:08:03 SPEAKER_00Yeah. How00:08:43 BRIAN HANCOCKI think so too. Many of the most important problem sets, there are ways to solve them other than bullets. And bullets may be expedient, but again, that tends to generate a lot of long -term animosity, which leads to that crisis after crisis, right? So critical skill definitely need more of that. And if we're not going to plus up civil affairs, maybe we need to start training some other people to understand that, or at least how... to utilize the civil affairs assets they have properly. And I think we're going to talk a little bit more about that later. Now, not long ago, the psychological operations groups of the United States Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, known as USACAPOC, they did that reorganization. They took their separate psychological operations groups, their POGs, and which, by the way, had a broken officer pyramid. They had about 100 captain positions, which would go to 33 major positions. and then go to 505 lieutenant colonel positions, four of which were battalion command.00:08:57 SPEAKER_00right?00:09:45 BRIAN HANCOCKSo it really became hard to have a career in PSYOP. Those are now moved under the KCOM, theoretically integrated within the KCOM. So we have civil affairs and psychological operations not only working together, but actually coexisting the same unit together. KPOC started with some experiments in that, and there's more of that occurring now. You commanded a civil affairs and psychological operations combined battalion. What was that experience like for you? And do you have any opinions on whether combining those two elements is a good long -term strategy for the command? Sure. Well,00:10:21 JEFFREY FIDDLER I'm not going to say any psyop jokes because I put my foot in my mouth in the past on that. There's a lot of CA officers that are dual -headed. I am. I'm one of them. Exactly. See? So I didn't do it. It's not going to be there in perpetuity. All right. But I had a CA PSYOP training battalion, Brian. So really, we're training NCOES, wasn't an operational battalion. Still counts as battalion command time for anybody that's out there that's looking for a battalion command. And those CA PSYOP training battalions are, in my opinion, you're not only getting your command time done, but it's also a good broadening assignment because you're running a schoolhouse. Right on. How often do you get that opportunity other than going into one of the more traditional training commands? Yeah,00:10:28 SPEAKER_00Exactly. See? So I didn't do it. It's not going to be there in perpetuity.00:11:00 BRIAN HANCOCKyou don't. You either work for TRADOC or you become a defense contractor for somebody's school, right? Yeah.00:11:06 JEFFREY FIDDLER It's a really different experience. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot about running a schoolhouse. So that was, it was interesting. For example, so my S3 at the battalion was PSYOP. So, you know, you can't do anything without your S3. He didn't work too much with CA. I haven't worked too much with PSYOP, but at the end of the day, we're all wearing a uniform. We're going to figure out a way to make it happen. When I look at 353KCOM, I think they have 2POG underneath them. So now you have three brigade -size commands under there. So I think I understand why KPOC did it. I think we'd have to ask the folks down there, but they were direct reporting, right, to use KPOC before. Yes, or DRU.00:11:45 BRIAN HANCOCKYes, or DRU.00:11:46 JEFFREY FIDDLER I think right now, I mean, for exercise support, I think we have some of those folks coming out from 2POG. And I think the fact that we had folks on the ground out here, like our division, were all from the 353KCOM. kind of help massage that so that we can get more psyop folks over here in Europe.00:12:03 BRIAN HANCOCKI think from the doctrine point of view, and perhaps from the demands of modern warfare point of view, it does make sense. We look at FM3 Taco talking about multi -domain operations, moving these things together and synchronizing them in time and space for the Gestalt principle, kind of greater effect than you have if you were doing them individually. It goes a step further with information advantage. experimental doctrine, it's not official, where they say we not only need multi -domain operations, but we have things like the electromagnetic spectrum, which is an environment, not a domain. You've got the information, which in Army doctrine is a dimension. In Marine Corps, it's a co -equal war fighting function. And at the joint level, it's a joint function. But we need all of those things. Battlefield relevant, as you said earlier, we have to show that return on investment to a maneuver commander who's going to be a combat arms guard. And we have to show him that what we did made him more survivable, more lethal, more effective in a measurable way. So it has to be a fairly significant change to hit the detection of threshold and be measurable. And as we start adding all of these information -related capabilities together, And CAs is an information -related capability, perhaps not its primary role by doctrine, but is an IRC. Together, we can potentially get after that. So it makes sense to me why we'd want to put a PSYOP and CA together. I think we need to do a lot more than that. Probably need lawfare there and religious engagement there and public affairs there. We're doing things like theater information -advantaged elements, theater information -advantaged attachments, which add... many of those things, but still don't bring in the lawfare or the religious outreach. But it seems to me like KPOC is making a step in that direction. I think so.00:13:47 JEFFREY FIDDLER think so. And first time I ever worked with IO was at a CPX functional. Oh, really?00:13:52 BRIAN HANCOCKreally?00:13:52 JEFFREY FIDDLER 2022. So my brigade had CPX functional. We had a PSYOP battalion there and we had a IO battalion. Nice. I can't remember his name. I apologize for that. But the IO tenant colonel, he really put everything together. Integrator. He really was. Nice. He did it very well. And he's like, we're going to have information dominance from all the different sensors that we have out there.00:14:17 BRIAN HANCOCKSo I've seen it work. Nice. I'm not sure we're going to have information dominance against a near -peer threat, maybe windows of superiority to execute missions. Sure. And I think that's a reality that we have to do a little mindset change as we look at large -scale combat operations against near -peer adversary. But absolutely. A good IA officer who can synchronize all of these strong personalities in different subfields towards throw in the same direction is a great asset. It is.00:14:44 JEFFREY FIDDLER is. You even saw that here, Brian, right? We had the former G39. To understand all those equities, to find that one person, it's not easy. No, not at all.00:14:53 BRIAN HANCOCKall. You worked at the Pentagon for a while, in the Joint Chiefs of Staff office, no less, including at a very excited time during the COVID -19 crisis. What was that experience like? I imagine it was probably a pretty chaotic time to be there.00:15:09 JEFFREY FIDDLER It was, but I'm going to circle back pre -COVID. So when I left battalion command, for all the TPU officers out there, I'd never even heard of a TPU unit that supported the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Right. A troop program unit supporting joint chiefs? I didn't hear it either. So I was just Googling around one day. I'm like, all right, where am I going to go next for battalion command? And I called down to the unit. It was one of the first units in the Army Reserve where I actually interviewed for a job. Nice. Once I got hired, I saw their interview process and it was pretty picky. I was surprised by that. Well, the list is long to get in there. So for any of those officers out there looking to get war college done or to get AOC done, or if you're a major above, because you don't want to go down there as a captain because your joint time doesn't start until you hit major. Right. I don't want to say it's a place to take a knee because it's a very busy unit, but it's not like being part of an operational brigade or battalion where you're on a phone call. four or five nights out of the month, or even more if you're in an operational CA, brigade, or battalion. We know that that's how it is. Yeah, daily, probably. Really unique place. I started out in the J35, which is part of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but it's stationed in Norfolk, Virginia. Right. And that was doing CA, PSYOP, force rotation. Somebody said, hey, we need a CA battalion.00:16:11 BRIAN HANCOCKdaily, probably.00:16:27 JEFFREY FIDDLER We'd take a look and see if that's exactly what they needed. Wasn't my cup of tea. But then I went over to J7, which is the interagency lead over there, and I worked in the training section as well, which was a fabulous assignment. And then COVID kicked off, and they needed folks to work down in the basement where all the cave dwellers are. Yeah, the Morlocks from H .G. Wells. Yeah, and you know, what's funny, I mean, we're trained to do everything in the Army. Nobody ever trained us on how to be on a crisis management team. Yeah. Right. Well,00:16:56 BRIAN HANCOCKwe, well, I mean, we've got crisis action planning and doctrine. Yeah. Right. But that doesn't, we, yeah, no, that's different.00:17:02 JEFFREY FIDDLER I showed up there on active duty and I was the senior ranking Lieutenant Colonel. So they said, oh, congratulations. You're in charge. You're in charge of the overnight shift. Oh God. And oh, by the way, you're going to have the SecDef's book ready in the morning, Vice President Pence's book ready and Dr. Burke's. No pressure. Right. And then all the Jaders. Right. And no, but it was great. We had a couple of civil affairs officers there, and the colonel that I was working with, he said, wow, he's like, those folks are really sharp. One of them is Hilda Fernandez. You could put her in any spot somewhere, and she's not going to look for a lot of direction. She's just going to figure it out. And this is what we talked about, right, with being aggressive and those kind of folks. Those are the kind of officers that you want in your battalion and brigade. And she was great down there, and we had a lot of good civil affairs folks down there.00:17:47 BRIAN HANCOCKI know it couldn't have been an easy assignment and there were tough questions that Department of Defense had to deal with. We look at all those folks, say, on an aircraft carrier in close proximity who get COVID. We get an experimental vaccine and there are perhaps some concerns about it and tough decisions have to be made to make it mandatory to do immunizations with a brand new vaccine. Were you part of that? I imagine that there were some long nights as that policy was being developed.00:18:18 JEFFREY FIDDLER Yeah, I was actually down there when they were leaving. The commander, I think it was the Roosevelt. Yeah, it was difficult. We weren't part of any policy. It was really just making sure there was any GFM actions. That was one of the big things that we did. So as you can imagine, a lot of medical folks were being activated to support the hospital. There were disc commissions for CA. Yeah. Absolutely. Some of my friends went on those. Yeah. So there was a lot of that. And of course, the logistician piece, right? Getting supplies from point A to point B. So we had a little touch in that as well. You had to move some toilet paper. Did you have an opportunity to do that? Because I never could get enough in the store. Never did that. But you want to talk about influence. I had noticed in New York City, the death toll was outrageous there.00:18:38 BRIAN HANCOCKYeah. Absolutely. Some of my00:19:00 JEFFREY FIDDLER And we had mortuary affairs companies out there. And you could see the amount of bodies that they're processing. And that was one of the things that we would put on the placemat. The president's placemat? It was for the vice president. I don't know who did the president's book, but I know he did the vice president's, but be brief to General Milley because he was the chairman at the time. And we could affect that in a way of saying, hey, look, this company processed this many bodies. And actually somebody went out and saw that commander on the ground saying, hey, you guys are doing a great job. It was a tough business.00:19:33 BRIAN HANCOCKAn assignment like that sounds like. a little bit of choose your own adventure. But if you use your time wisely, you can attack some of those serious projects that require a lot of intellectual rigor, which are very challenging when you have a lot of tactical elements that you're in charge of maneuvering in time and space. It seems like in those kinds of environments, we're always just kind of putting out fires. And then when we look at some of the larger institutional questions that have to be solved as we do acquisitions and force management and some of those other things, it's kind of hard to find that headspace. to do that. But it sounds like this is an opportunity. As soon as I started the war college with,00:20:08 JEFFREY FIDDLER I started the war college with, I think, three months left of battalion command. Right. And then when I went to the Joint Chiefs, that's where I finished up my war college time. And it allowed me to do it. Nice. It was more reasonable than being in command. All right. Awesome. And let me just cover real quick. If anybody is interested in going down to the Joint Chiefs, if you want to become joint qualified, you need 36 points a year in a J -Doll billet. And you can accomplish that just through drills and a couple of weeks of AT. So, of course, if you have JPME -2, whether you get that through Joint Combined Warfighting School or Resident War College, then you can get your 3LEMA identifier for the health. Yeah, your ASI for joint qualified.00:20:46 BRIAN HANCOCKthe health. Yeah, your ASI for joint qualified. Yes. It really interests me when HQDA showed the number of joint qualified generals, it was actually a very low number. It surprised me because everything we do that matters is joint combined. And many of our points of friction are when we're working in these federated environments with partners. It would seem to me that this is something that as a force, we just should be getting better at.00:21:10 JEFFREY FIDDLER Yeah. Well, the thing is for the COMPO3, right? It's not a requirement to become joint qualified. Totally optional. So I think we're at 5%. Yeah, very low. Joint qualification. But again, it's a good experience. Even though we don't need the joint qualification, it's a good experience to have. It's a small DOD in a way. So when I worked at the J7, Rare Admiral Foster, who I worked for in Cyprus, was one of the bosses down there as a captain. And at the J7, it was Vice Admiral Munch, who's Admiral Munch now, was my boss's boss. So we all ended up working again together on the HA mission in Cyprus and Gaza.00:21:48 BRIAN HANCOCKYou know, that's the way things happen. Yeah. Relationships of trust. Exactly. All right. Thank you for your time, sir. Really appreciate it. And that's a wrap. Thanks, Brian.00:21:57 CloseThanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack. Stay tuned for more great episodes of 1CA Podcast.
- Laat meer zien
