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Youâre listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my conversation is with the iconic Sarai Walker.
Sarai is the author of The Cherry Robbers and Dietland, which came out in May 2015âand is celebrating its 10th anniversary this month.
Dietland is one of those books that means so much to me, itâs hard to put into words. I consider it a foundational text of the body liberation movement of the past decade. It was adapted as a television series starring Joy Nash for AMC in 2018. Itâs just one of those booksâthat inducted so many of us into conversations about fatness, feminism, radical social action.
Sarai has also lectured on feminism and body image internationally. Her articles and essays have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian and elsewhere, and she worked as a writer and editor on an updated version of Our Bodies, Ourselves.
I asked Sarai to join me today to reflect on what 10 years of Dietland has meant to her. We also talk a lot about the very mixed experience of being a public fat person, as well as being a woman, and a writer, in midlife. You will love this conversation.
And! If you order Dietland and Fat Talk together from Split Rock Books, you can take 20% off the combo with the code FATLAND.
If youâve already bought fat talk from Split Rock, you can still take 10% off Dietland or any book we talk about on the podcast, using the code FATTALK.
Todayâs episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally canât do this without you.
Episode 195 Transcript
Virginia
This is really a big thrill for me. Dietland came out in 2015, weâre here to celebrate its 10th anniversary. I read it pretty soon after it came out, and I remember reading about Plum and Calliope House and the Jennifer vigilantes who were killing all the evil men, and just thinking, how is she in my brain? How is she writing my whole heart in this story?
So to start us off with what is probably an impossible question: How does that feel, to have contributed something that is so important to the canon? And by canon, I mean the fat feminist literary canon.
Sarai
Itâs funny, as an author, I donât know if I feel it the way youâre describing it. Man, I hope that thatâs the case! I guess itâs for other people to decide what a bookâs legacy is, whether itâs important or not. What I can sayâyou know, the book turns 10 this month, and it has really meant a lot to me over the years that people have just connected with it in such a positive way.
People related to Plumâs story, they really felt that I put into words something that only they had felt, which was one of the things that I really had to work hard on in the book, because I had all these feelings about my own experience with my own body. And I was like, how do I put that into words? So that was the struggle of writing the book and being able to do that. I was so happy when people really felt that the book could speak for them in certain ways, that it gave them a voice.
I still hear from people! I heard from somebody just yesterday who said the book changed their life. We live in an age where so many things just seem disposable, and people forget about things and move on really quickly. Dietland, whatever its legacy may be, it has had a long life.
Virginia
We should say, for folks who donât know publishing: For a book to still be in print 10 years later is incredible. The vast majority of books have a year, two years, and then theyâre done. It is a huge accomplishment, and a huge contribution.
Sarai
It means a lot to me. Itâs getting a new French publication and a new translation over there. So, you know, my girl keeps on going. And itâs funny, because I think one of the things that people enjoyed about the book was the anger and the rage in it, and the revenge fantasy narrative about Jennifer.
At the same time, some people were like, oh, well, things arenât that bad. Youâre exaggerating. Fast forward from 2015 to 2025, and things are worse than I could have ever imagined back then.
Virginia
You downplayed it a little bit.
Sarai
Exactly. So I feel in this weird way, kind of vindicated? Thatâs not a great feeling. But itâs just so weird that the 10th anniversary is coming at a time when thereâs this huge backlash against feminism, against fat. Even something as watered down as body positivity is under attack, you know? It just tells you how bad things are. So in that sense, itâs sort of bittersweet to have the anniversary at this time, because things are really just heartbreaking and scary right now.
Virginia
But also: We need the book more than ever. We need the Dietland story more than ever, because things are so scary right now. It gives us a way of articulating that. It gives us a place to put those feelings.
Sarai
I hope that new readers find the book now in this new climate that weâre in and people who read it before might revisit it. Iâve actually thought of writing some new Jennifer stories. I feel like they would have to be so, so violent and so filled with rage, I donât know if they would be healthy for me, but Iâve thought about unleashing Jennifer on MAGA.
Virginia
I personally am very here for this and yery, very supportive of this idea. I think there would be an audience. I would really love to see Jennifer take on MAGA and MAHA and RFK Jr. in particular.
Sarai
If I end up in prison, though, I donât know.
Virginia
Iâm hearing that concern, as weâre saying it out loud. Fictionalized versions of these things, perhaps.
Sarai
Names changed.
Virginia
I mean, youâre busy, youâre doing lots of things, but it would be a public service.
Many more folks discovered Dietland after it became a TV show, which aired in 2018. It was created by Marti Noxon of Buffy the Vampire Slayer fame. And it starred the incredible Joy Nash. And we only got 10 magic episodes. Itâs a really great season, but we only got the one season.
I would love to hear how you felt about the show? Iâve always wondered what that feels like, to have a novel go into on the screen. Itâs got to be such a strange experience.
Sarai
It is strange and surreal. Looking back now, itâs hard to believe that it happened. I think so many writers do get their book optioned, but to actually have it not just optioned, but then go into production and become a television series is pretty rare. So I feel lucky that I had that.
The show premiered three years after the book was published, which is so fast, but that was kind of the golden age of TV, I think.
It was a great experience. Marti really welcomed me in. I went out to the writerâs room, and I worked as a consultant. I got to visit the set in New York. And basically the the 10 episodes that we got were the whole book. So, Iâm really sad that it didnât go on, that we didnât get at least a season two, preferably five seasons would have been great. But AMC just kind of bailed out on it. There was a lot of drama there going on behind the scenes that had nothing to do with the show that contributed to that.
When the show was canceled, one of the cast members posted something on social media saying, âIâm so tired of shows about women that try and do interesting and groundbreaking things just being canceled and not given a chance to grow.â Itâs very hard to build an audience in one ten episode season. So I just felt like the show wasnât given that chance. And so that makes it a little bit bittersweet. But I treasure the ten episodes that we did get. Itâs an incredible privilege that we got that.
Amd the show was pretty faithful to the book, actually, I thought. When I got there to the writerâs room, they were already at work and they were using it as their Bible and I was this kind of like goddess of this world. It was really weird.
Virginia
Thatâs amazing.
Sarai
All these people working on something that came from my head. It was surreal.
Virginia
And Joy as Plumâsheâs amazing and really embodies the character.
Sarai
She is so great. I just love Joy. When I was living out in LA we used to go out to lunch, and sheâs so fun and just so sweet. And, yeah, I really loved working with her, and having her play Plum.
Virginia
So you mentioned feeling like a goddess in the writers room. But putting this out there did launch you as a Public Facing Fat Person, which I put in capital letters. Itâs an experience that that Iâve had, a little bit as well. And it is a real mixed bag. Itâs just really a weird experience to be professionally fat, especially because, in your case, your subsequent work has had nothing to do with fatness. And yet, Iâm sure this is still something that comes up.
Sarai
Yeah, I mean, you know what itâs like to be publicly fat. Everyone reacts to it differently. Iâm a novelist, so Iâm very introverted. The book was published in 2015 and then the paperback in 2016 and the British edition, which was a whole wild ride with the media over there.
Virginia
Oh god, I am sorry. I know and Iâm sorry.
Sarai
Yeah. It made our media look okay!
Virginia
No, itâs terrible. The British media is so awful in general, and itâs so specifically fatphobic. Anytime Iâve done anything with the British media, itâs been a deeply scarring experience.
Sarai
It was awful. I had a big newspaper over there wanted me to write this big article for them, and theyâre like, âYou have to put your weight in the article.â
Virginia
I mean, what?
Sarai
And then another website, this feminist website, was like âWe want pictures of you to use as stock photos for other articles on body positivity.â
Virginia
Iâm sorry, can you not find other fat people??
Sarai
Iâm the only one that exists. I donât know if you know that, but Iâm the only one.
And so, I had years of this. I was on NPR, talking about being fat. I was on MSNBC. I was on other radio shows. I mean, thatâs the game, right? And at that time, âobesity epidemicâ rhetoric was a really big thing. So my book had this hook, which isnât common for novels, but I got all these interviews and so I had to go along with it, and go out there.
On the one hand, itâs really radical to be like, âYeah, Iâm fat,â and to speak about it in a neutral or positive way. Itâs radical. Itâs a taboo. And there arenât a lot of taboos left. But it also just was hard to constantly have my body mentioned all the time. I remember Julianna Margulies, who was on the TV show, did an interview on a podcast talking about me and said something like, âOh, Saraiâs a big girl.â Which is fine. I mean, thatâs the thing, thatâs what I wrote about. And thatâs what it was like, actors, radio hosts, journalists, all referring to me as big or fat. And Iâm not blaming them at all, but it was just the effect it had on me over time, was like, I started to kind of feel like a fat lady in like a circus or something. But I was reduced to the it was always about my body
Virginia
And youâre like, âIâm actually a writer. I have this whole incredible ability to invent a world. Not many people can do that. Could we maybe talk about that?â Just a thought.
Sarai
It was really hard for me. I thought I would love being in the spotlight, and it was harder than I thought it would be.
Virginia
I appreciate you saying that. I think it is really hard. Iâve had a smaller experience with it, and that was enough. I donât want more than Iâve had.
I have a friend who says, âYou donât really know how you feel about a book until three years after the book came out. You need that time to survive.â The whole experience of launching a bookâespecially if a book does wellâis like youâre basically disassociating a lot of the time to get through all the interviews and the press and the backlash and the trolls and whatever it creates. And then your nervous system needs time to slowly absorb what you just experienced. For me, one piece of it is like, okay, that was enough. I donât need more scrutiny on my body or my life. We donât owe the world that. And thereâs a weird expectation that because you made a thing or wrote a thing that people are connecting with, you somehow owe them more of yourself.
Sarai
And itâs like youâre saying, if you kind of step back, itâs like, am I disappointing people? And I donât want to do that.
Virginia
But Iâm still a person with a life and my own needs.
Sarai
Iâve always been fat. When I was a kid and growing up as a young adult, I was deeply ashamed of being fat. And I had the kind of the experience of Plum in Dietland, where I eventually experienced liberation about my body. But that trauma doesnât go away. So having everybody talk about me being fat all the time, it kind of triggers off things that you thought you had dealt with, or were at peace with. Then all of a sudden, itâs like picking in a scab all the time.
Even in the writers room for Dietland, I was the only fat woman in there. So that was my role. Iâm the fat person. I have to tell you what itâs like to be fat. And it was just always focusing on that.
And thatâs what happens when you put out a book about that subject. Iâm not really complaining about it. It was just harder than I thought it would be and it took a toll on me.
Virginia
Itâs a weird experience, and itâs weird that itâs a necessary part of getting this conversation into the mainstream.
When Fat Talk came out, Aubrey Gordon texted me and was like, âIâm checking in to see how youâre doing, because the bookâs doing wellâ Because, obviously, sheâs had lots of experience as a public fat person. And she was like, âThanks for taking your turn in the trenches.â And that is kind of how it feels. In order to keep this conversation going around fat liberation and body liberation, we do need to keep putting this work out there. Somebody has to go to the front of the line and take all the hits for a while.
And you did it at a time when not many people were getting a big stage to do that. And without a network of other people who had done it, maybe. So thank you.
Sarai
Oh, well, youâre welcome. And thank you for everything you do. Because I remember after your New York Times interview, I DMed you. I was like, âAre you okay?â Because I know what itâs like to write something and the New York Times people go nuts when itâs about fat. Iâm like, are you all right? Because we have to look out for each other, you know?
Virginia
I really appreciated it when you did that. It wasnât the most fun experience in my life.
When we were talking about doing this episode, you were also saying how, as a writer you have gone on to write things that donât have anything to do with fatness. Itâs not like being a journalist on a beat. So Iâm sure thatâs also challenging, that youâre like, this canât always be the most interesting thing about me. Thatâs not fair.
Sarai
Yeah. I mean, my second novel, The Cherry Robbersâ
Virginia
Which I loved!
Sarai
Oh, thank you. That was historical. The novel took place mostly in the 1950s. I wanted something totally different. I didnât want to be in the contemporary culture. When the book came out, it got a glowing review in The New York Times, and great reviews, but people just werenât interested in talking to me anymore.
I mean, part of thatâs is the publishing world thing, where your debut is like a debutante ball, and everybody wants to talk to you. And then once itâs your second or third book, itâs like, oh, yeah, we moved on from you.
Sorry, I sound really jaded right now! But without that kind of a newsy hook, people just werenât interested really in talking to me anymore about the book. I think you could be tempted to say, âOkay, well, Iâm going to write another book about fatness so I can get back in the media attention.â But no.
As you say, other people have stepped up in their writing about it, and theyâre doing the work on it now. I had my time, I had my voice. Iâm not saying Iâll never write about being fat again. Iâm sure Iâll write an essay or who knows what, but I am just doing other things now. Iâve tried to carve out my space as a writer who is fat and who writes about all different kinds of things.
Virginia
No one needs a thin writer to keep writing about thinness. No one needs a male writer to keep writing about the experience of being a man.
Itâs only when you have some kind of marginalization that people then expect that to be everything you write and think about. As opposed to saying, this is a person who writes and thinks about lots of different things. And happens to be this identity, and cares a lot about that identity and has thoughts about it. But every piece of work doesnât need to be defined by that.
Sarai
Yeah. I mean, I live as a fat person. Thatâs my reality. Iâm not running away from it. It is who I am. Itâs inextricably linked to who I am. But I as a as a writer, as a person, I get bored easily. I want new challenges. I want to write new types of stories.
In my next novel, the narrator is fat. But I only mention it once in the novel, so itâs sort of like playing around with, yeah, this character is fat, but thatâs not really that relevant to the story that Iâm telling. Itâs there, and it kind of comes up in other ways, but itâs not the whole story. So kind of an evolution, I guess, too, of how Iâm writing about fat, at least in fiction.
Virginia
Thatâs where we need to get with representationâwhere every story about a fat character should not be just about their experience of fatness. Thatâs so reductive. We need more characters that happen to be fat, that are doing other things.
Sarai
Yeah, I think that thatâs the ultimate goal. I donât think weâre there yet in any kind of medium. But, yeah, that would be the dream.
Virginia
Weâre working towards it.
You were also saying that you feel like just a very different kind of writer now than when you wrote Dietland, which is a book with so much anger and fire in it. Itâs a gauntlet thrown. You described yourself as feeling âless fiery and more muted now,â but I also wonder if this is just being older and wiser and maybe a little more jadedâ but also clearer about which mountains youâre willing to die on now.
Sarai
I wrote Dietland in my 30s. But it was published when I was 42 because it took forever to find an agent. Then when we sold it, it took forever to come out. Publishing is quite slow. But that was the novel of my 30s. And I look back now at this anniversary, and I was so fired up. I was so passionate. I was bold and fierce and brave.
Some of the things I wrote, I donât know if I would write now, if Iâd be brave enough. So I look at that person who wrote Dietland, and Iâm not exactly that person anymore. And itâs something thatâs been bothering me for a while.
And recently, I listened to an interview with Zadie Smith on the NPR Wildcard podcast. She and I are about the same age, 50-ish, going through all the hormonal changes of this time of life. And she was talking about her earlier books and how she thinks about herself when she was younger versus how she is now. She was talking about how now, at midlife, she feels kind of quieter inside. Her big personality has sort of retracted a little bit. And when I heard her say that, I just was blown away, because thatâs what Iâve been experiencing too. And I havenât really heard a lot of other people talking about it, and I hadnât really put it into words or myself. I think because it was upsetting to feel a bit more low key, a bit more apathetic.
Iâm not really an apathetic person. Iâve never thought of myself that way. But I kind of feel that way now, so itâs a weird time in my life. And Iâve had women who are older say it gets better. Like, just wait, ride this out, and youâre going to come out on the other side of this older and wiser and happier. But right now, Iâm just kind of in this weird space where I just feel different. Iâm a different person in some ways. I have the same values, but Iâm a different kind of a writer, different kind of a person. Iâm settling. Thatâs where I am right now. Iâm kind of in the thick of it.
Virginia
I think we donât often hear this nuance from people after they do something that has the kind of impact and success that Dietland has. We often think, well that person just continues to soar and itâs all the next peak and the next peak. And thatâs not every experience. Probably thatâs not most peopleâs experiences after having a big success. Itâs okay that there are valleys and different paths and different twists and turns to it.
My other thought is: How could you not be feeling that way right now, given what the world is? Given what it means to be a woman right now? And everything that weâre up against. I think thereâs a some universalâmaybe itâs apathy, maybe itâs⌠I donât know what it is, exactly. But this feels deeply relatable to me on a lot of levels.
Sarai
I think going through midlife and perimenopause, at a time when the whole world seems to be a disaster makes it a lot worse. Everybody is coming off the pandemic and Roe v Wade being overturned, and now Trump in office again. Our baseline is just really bad, you know? Itâs just kind of everything piled on at once.
But it is true, I talked to some other women I know my age, who whoâve written novels in the past and have success and then canât get published anymore once they get into their 50s. You expect youâre going to go on forever like you do at the beginning. And you have to deal with the publishing industry. Itâs a corporate industry. And there are lots of things at play that have nothing to do with whether books are good or not, or whether readers want certain books, or whatever.
You start out having these expectations about how your career will go, and then you donât realize that itâs, itâs always a struggle. Unless youâre some massive superstar writer who could have their grocery list published. But for the rest of us, itâs a struggle that just kind of peaks and valleys, and that has been a kind of wake up call ten years into being a novelist, for sure.
Virginia
The industry is so complicated. I think the ageism is very real in our industry. I mean, and everywhere. I just turned 44 so Iâm kind of getting into this zone that youâre talking about. Perimenopause is definitely with me. It has begun. And I think a lot there is an invisibility thatâs starting to kick in, compared to what I experienced as a woman in my 20s or 30s being out in the world. I can, sort of slip by unnoticed a little more sometimes. And sometimes I really like that, and sometimes it makes me angry. Kind of depends on the day. And I donât even just mean male attention. I just mean the way people interact with you. Iâm starting to notice some of those shifts.
Sarai
I think thatâs one of the things thatâs so strange about this time of life. There are a lot more adults who are younger than you all of a sudden. So all of a sudden, youâve got 20 or 30 years worth of adults that are younger than you that start to see you as not important anymore.
Virginia
My kids like to remind me that Taylor Swift is 35. as if thatâs an entire different generation from me. Thatâs not that much younger, guys! Okay, anyway.
Sarai
I mean, yeah, 35, sheâs getting up there. But itâs kind of like you donât matter as much anymore, in a way. Like thatâs what society wants you to believe. That youâre kind of fading. I think thatâs one of the things that you kind of have to push back against.
And, you know, Iâm Gen X.
Virginia
Iâm elder millennial, but Iâm one year off of Gen X or something.
Sarai
I do think Gen X, despite all of our problems and flaws, are writing more about menopause and perimenopause and aging. And your generation will pick up that mantle and do even more with it. So I feel like, weâre trying to change things at least and make it so that weâre not fading away. Iâm in my 50s now. Iâm not going anywhere. And Iâm still going to write. Youâre not going to silence me. Itâs kind of like just insisting that weâre still here, we still have a voice. But, yeah, itâs hard.
Virginia
Itâs hard, and when youâre feeling that kind of personal, muted thing you were talking about and then itâs getting reinforced by the cultural perceptions of being a midlife woman. Then itâs like, am I going to summon up all the energy I need to push back against that? Or am I going to take some of that as, like, itâs a little bit liberating. I donât have to be the young, shiny superstar reaching for the brass ring right now. Itâs kind of a mixed thing, I think.
Sarai
With Dietland, I was idealistic and passionate and fiery. And Iâm different now, but Iâm not putting as much pressure on myself either. Iâm not saying everything I write, I have to change the world. Thatâs what I wanted before. And now Iâm older, and I realize youâre not really going to change the world. You might change a few people, and thatâs great. But one novel is not going to change the world. And I donât need to aim for that anymore.
I want to write different things. I want to not put that kind of pressure on myself. So yeah, thereâs a kind of liberating part to it as well. I think when Iâm not so taking myself as seriously and putting so much pressure on myself, I kind of loosened up a little bit. So thatâs kind of the flip side of the more negative stuff I was talking about a minute ago.
Virginia
I appreciate how honest youâre being about the struggle, because I just think it is deeply relatable. And then to this end of what youâre working on now, we want to hear all about the next book. You have an announcement for us?
Sarai
Yes, so last year, I sold my third novel. But we didnât want to announce it till I had all the edits done and we had the manuscript ready to go.
So summer 2026, my third novel is going to be published. Itâs called Furious Violet, and itâs a suspense novel, which is something I always wanted to do. Like a detective story.
Itâs different from what Iâve written, but I do think thereâs a little bit of the spirit of Dietland in it, just in the voice, maybe. I guess, because The Cherry Robbers was in the 50s mostly, whereas Iâm back and writing about contemporary culture.
So Iâm really excited about it. Iâve always wanted to write a book like this, and itâs the most fun Iâve ever had writing a novel.
Virginia
I love that.
Sarai
My main character, is 49 almost 50, going through perimenopause. I got to write about that experience in a sort of darkly comedic way, which is a medium that I really like, like that dark comedy that Dietland had. Sheâs a true crime writer. Sheâs writing a book about a serial killer, but sheâs also the daughter of this very famous poet who is deceased, but like a giant of American poetry. This woman who has this cult following, and sort of is always a shadow over my my characterâs life.
So she has that, but sheâs a true crime writer, and she kind of embraces her mediocrity. Sheâs not a genius like her mom. Sheâs just a true crime writer. And when the book begins, somebody starts stalking her and telling her, âYouâre my mother.â And she doesnât understand whatâs going on, because she doesnât have kids. And so itâs this mystery about what does this mean, who is this person, and what do they mean? And itâs all entangling all of that and all of the other aspects of her life, and how they all intersect.
Virginia
I canât wait to read it. Iâm riveted just hearing you talk about it.
Sarai
I had so much fun working on it. It was a wild ride. So thank you. Iâm excited.
Virginia
I hope youâll come back next summer when it comes out and talk to us about it some more. And I just have to say, I am filled with so much admiration for how youâve evolved as a writer and how you like are going in. This book feels so different from Cherry Robbers feels so different from Dietland.
Sarai
Thank you. I donât like to get bored. I want to do new things.
Sarai
I think publishing kind of wants to put you in a box, and I donât want to be in that box. I wanted to do something different.
Virginia
Itâs awesome. I canât wait to read it. Iâm so excited.
Sarai
Oh, thanks, thank you.
Butter
Virginia
Sarai, do you have any Butter for us right now?
Sarai
I just came off months and months of edits, and when Iâm doing that, I canât read. I canât read other peopleâs stuff. So I donât have any book recommendations. But Iâm really excited to start reading again. But I was listening to a lot of music. I often listen to music while Iâm writing, but it canât have lyrics, has to be instrumental.
I discovered this Canadian classical violinist named Angèle Dubeau. She plays the work of a lot of contemporary composers. And I donât know a lot about classical music. Iâm not plugged into the contemporary classical music scene. But through her, Iâve discovered all these different composers. And she has one piece in particular called Experience. So if youâre on Spotify or Apple Music or wherever, I would recommend looking this up. This piece I just absolutely love it. Itâs so beautiful, and I listen to it so many times. As I was editing, and then I keep listening to her work, and I donât know it just meant a lot to me during this time. So yeah, it was really exciting to discover that.
Virginia
Thatâs incredible. Itâs so fun to discover an artist and realize thereâs more and more of their work, and you can go down the rabbit hole of everything theyâve done. I find that so satisfying.
Sarai
Sheâs introduced me to so many different composers, and I really love it.
Virginia
Thatâs so cool. Iâll do a music rec as well, although itâs not nearly as sophisticated as that. But my seven year old and I are currently on a big kick with the Hamilton soundtrack. Obviously Hamilton, the musical, had its moment a minute ago. Like, itâs been around for a while. But it stands the test of time, and itâs very fun to listen to with kids. I end up having to answer a lot of strange questions, because for a seven year old, itâs just a lot of things that she doesnât know, that she needs translated. So we have some very funny conversations. Itâs still a banger of a show and really great and fun to listen to a kid. Itâs our little bedtime ritual. Before we read, sheâs a kid who needs to really get her energy out. And we have a swing that she likes to swing on, and we play the Hamilton soundtrack and do three or four songs, and itâs just like a fun end of day ritual that Iâm really enjoying right now.
Sarai
I love that. Iâm still listening to the Xanadu soundtrack or something for my childhood.
Virginia
These things, theyâre classics for a reason.
Obviously, we want everyone to go pick up a 10th anniversary copy of Dietland!
Get it if you havenât read it, or if you read it and loved it, but youâve lost your original copy, you probably need another one. Itâs a great gift for someone else, some friend, mom, sister, whoever.
Tell folks anything else about where we can find you, how we can support your work.
Sarai
So I have a website, and, you know, Iâm on Instagram, Iâm on Blue Sky, and I do have a Facebook page I donât update very much. I do have a TikTok account that I donât really know what to do with, but Iâve done a few videos. So Iâm out there, pretty easy to find. My next novel coming out next summer, but thatâs got a ways to go on that.
Virginia
Well, we will keep people posted about that for sure. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
Sarai
Thanks. It was so much fun. So thank you, Virginia.
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
Before we start the show todayâŚ
Have you donated to the Me Little Me Virtual Food Pantry? No, it wonât prevent any of the MAHA shenanigans weâre about to discuss. But it will get low-income folks (many of whom are in eating disorder recovery) fed â and with the food of their choosing. Meaning yes, ultra processed foods that bring comfort and convenience, and yes to beloved cultural foodsâŚand yes to trusting folks in need to know what they need.
Weâre trying to raise $12,000 and add 50 recurring donors to their rosters by June 1. And we can only do that with your help! Thank you!
You are listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Jessica Wilson, MS, RD.
Jessica is a clinical dietitian and host of the podcast Making It Awkward. Her critiques of American food hysteria have been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, and other outlets, and Jessicaâs ultra processed food experiment received coverage in Time Magazine last fall. Jessica was last on the podcast to celebrate the release of her book, Itâs Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Womenâs Bodies, which explores how marginalized bodies, especially black womenâs bodies, are policed by society in ways that impact body autonomy and health.
Jessica is one of the most incisive thinkers I know about wellness and diet culture, as well as food policy and nutrition. So I asked her to come back on the podcast today just to help us make sense of what is happening right now in public health. Weâre going to get into RFK. Weâre going to get into MAHA, weâre going to get into processed foods. I know you will find this conversation both hilarious and helpful.
Todayâs episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally canât do this without you.
And donât forget, you can take 10 percent off Itâs Always Been Ours, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if youâve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com
My dear friend (and our nationâs leading momfluencer scholar) Sara Petersen joined me for a very fun Substack Live yesterday to discuss: Momfluencer Brooke Raybouldâs protein-packed postpartum journey! Why $700 calendars are not the systemic support moms need! Would we eat seven hardboiled eggs in one meal! And so much more.
Longtime Burnt Toasties will recall that âŚ
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This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe
Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark. This month we are talking about⌠seasonal color analysis!
Weâll be getting into:
âď¸ The complicated legacy of Color Me Beautiful
âď¸ Is color analysis a little bit racist?
âď¸ Is color analysisâŚa diet?
âď¸ What colors can Virginia wear, and why are there so many shades of taupe?
To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, youâll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.
Extra Butter costs just $99 per year. (Regular paid subscribers, the remaining value of your subscription will be deducted from that total!)
Extra Butter subscribers also get access to posts like:
Dating While Fat
What to do when you miss your smaller body
Is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet?
And did Virginia really get divorced over butter?
And Extra Butters also get DM access and other perks. Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free spaceâwhich is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!
(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details, and cc [email protected].)
PS. If Extra Butter isnât the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undiesâsubscribe for 20% off!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
-
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com
ICYMI yesterday⌠Corinne Fay and I did our first-ever Substack Live! If youâre a casual Substack user, you may or may not have noticed these popping up more frequently. Yes, they work just like Instagram Lives. Yes, they are another way Substack is becoming social media and we can all have complicated feelings about that. Yes, itâs weird that writers now have to bâŚ
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You are listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Elizabeth Ayiku.
Elizabeth is a food justice organizer and founder of the Me Little Me Foundation, a nonprofit committed to advancing food equity and providing free, culturally competent support services for marginalized communities. Based in Los Angeles, Elizabeth works to dismantle the systemic barriers that affect mental health and wellbeing, emphasizing the importance of meeting basic needs first.
Elizabethâs foundation draws its name from her debut feature film Me Little Me. The Me Little Me Foundation offers a free virtual food pantry for folks in needâwith a focus on helping people with multiple marginalized identities, folks of color and folks in eating disorder recovery.
And Burnt Toast, we have a challenge for you!
We want to raise $6,000 to support the Me Little Me Foundation.
Burnt Toast will match every dollar we raise, up to another $6000, by June 1. Youâre going to hear more from Elizabeth in this episode about why this work is so important. Please share this episode widely, and donate if you can!
Todayâs episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally canât do this without you.
Episode 192 Transcript
Elizabeth
So I was born in the prairies of Canada to a Caribbean mother and West African father. Iâm currently Los Angeles based. And Iâm a filmmaker, a food justice organizer and a nonprofit founder.
Virginia
That is a lot of very hard jobs that you have! You sound extremely busy.
Elizabeth
I am. Itâs a lot.
Virginia
Well, weâll start with the film, because thatâs how we first got connected, when you were looking for sponsors for your really incredible film called Me Little Me. It came out in 2022, and it is available to stream on Amazon Prime and Apple TV.
You were working on this for quite a long time. It was a the labor of love project for sure.
Elizabeth
Oh my goodness, 100 percent. Itâs based on my own lived experience. So, in 2009 I went to treatment for eating disorder recovery. I went to IOPâan intensive outpatient programâand I was also working full time while I did it.
Being in eating disorder treatment became this kind of double life, and this big secret I had to hide. Because life couldnât stop, you know? And I guess thatâs something that I just never saw portrayed in any mainstream media, film, TV. It was always the person checked into inpatient. They had unlimited resources.
Virginia
Thousands and thousands of dollars per day for treatment.
Elizabeth
And no mention of where this money was coming from. It was just this really nicely packaged perception of what recovery is. And I was just waiting and waiting to see something that had any semblance of what Iâd gone through. And I just couldnât wait anymore! One day, I was like, âOkay, theyâre not doing it. Iâm going to have to be the one to make it.â And thatâs what I did.
Like you said, it was a labor of love. This is an indie film, 100 percent. We didnât have a studio backing us or anything like that. I just literally went to as many organizations as I could, and was like, âLook, Iâm trying to make this. Can we have some money?â And it took a long time.
We started shooting maybe the end of 2018 and 2019, before the pandemic. We started shooting principal photography, just getting the shots in. We ran out of money multiple times. There were so many challenges. So when I reached out to you, I was looking for finishing funds.
I took a shot and submitted to South by Southwest as my work in progress. That means the sound wasnât done, the color wasnât finalized. It was 2021, by this time. And I was like, âYou know what? Iâm just going to shoot my shot and say I did it.â I was 100 percent sure nothing was going to come of it. But just to say that I did it. So end of 2021 I submitted and January 2022 is when they told me we were accepted. Still, I have to remind myselfâIâm like, Oh my gosh, that happened.
Virginia
Yeah, you did it! You did the thing.
Elizabeth
I did the thing! And then there were a whole bunch of other expenses that came with that. They needed a digital cinema package as a way to show the movie professionally, which was like a minimum $1500+. Plus, it still wasnât finished. So I just needed someone to do a quick color and sound pass. Because, my God, I couldnât just show the the work in progress. So we just did a quick, rough color and sound pass. And I had to hire someone to do that.
I was grasping at straws. So when I reached out to you, I was just like, âThis is whatâs happening. This is what the my need is. Any help would be so so appreciated,â and you were like, absolutely, letâs do this.
Virginia
The story really resonated with me. As a journalist whoâs written about eating disorder recovery for two decades now, Iâm very aware of that mainstream narrative that you were talking about and just how many people it doesnât represent. There is this whole eating disorder industrial complex thatâs built to sell a certain kind of recovery and center a certain thin, white girl narrative.
And it just perpetually frustrates me, because everybody I know, whether personally in my own life, or people Iâve interviewed for work who has gone through recovery, is like, âYeah, it doesnât look anything like that.â
Elizabeth
Nope. Not even a little bit.
Virginia
And weâre doing such a disservice to people! So the fact that you were going to tell this much more complex story, centering a Black womanâI was like, yes, thank you so much.
Elizabeth
What you described is what I was up against, just this, all of those things. Trying to sell that story to the public, and if thatâs all people are offered, thatâs thatâs what they think the reality is.
Virginia
And then that just pushes recovery so much further out of reach for people who wouldnât have access to that kind of treatment. Meaning the expensive inpatient treatment options, which also arenât even necessarily the best treatment! It doesnât work for everybody! Okay. We could have a whole other show about that.
Elizabeth
We really could.
Virginia
The point is, the filmâs incredible. Itâs out. I want everyone to go stream it now that they can.
And what we really want to talk about today is how working on that film then led you to launch the Me Little Me Foundation.
Elizabeth
While I was working on finishing the film, it was the middle of the pandemic. It was a hard time. The racial uprisings were happening all around us, and almost everyone I knew was traumatized by the world they were witnessing. And that combination â There was so much need, and people in my community and people I didnât know, people online were like. âI need resources, I need assistance, but I donât know where to turn.â It was too much to just ignore, you know?
So that the subject matter of the film, plus the world that was happening at the timeâI just knew there needed to be something in place that was different than the current resources out there.
So I came up with the idea for a virtual food pantry where folks are approved up to a certain amount. They make a list of what they need. I shop for them online from a local grocery store that offers delivery, and the groceries are shipped to them for free.
So you donât need to have a vehicle, you donât need to live in the correct zip code to get to the food pantryâbecause thatâs a thing. And you also get to choose how you want to nourish yourself, because that was important to me, too. Because thereâs dignity in being able to choose.
Virginia
Yes, and not just being handed a bag of food like, âThis is what you get.â
Elizabeth
Yeah. âBe grateful, now move along.â
So I wanted to help with the trauma, and the lack of resources. Cultural needs arenât taken into account at any food pantry Iâve ever used. Iâve been to so many pantries in my life, and itâs a lot of white foods. Like, I donât know how else to describe them.
And when youâre having mental health issues because of trauma, because of the world around us, for whatever reason, just because youâre struggling to make it, your cultural foods can be so comforting. They can just be so so comforting, and just what you need. And I just wanted to take that into consideration. So thatâs why I set it up the way I did, where folks tell me what they need, and thatâs what they get.
Virginia
Thereâs such dignity in that, and empowerment for people. I think about the power of choice all the time, even just at the level of feeding my own kids. The idea that I would know what someone else needs to eat on any given day seems wild? I donât know what youâre hungry for! I donât know what what you need right now. You know what you need right now. The fact that so many of our aid systems are not set up to honor that is a huge problem. So I love that you built that into into how youâre doing this.
Youâre focusing on folks of color who need assistance, and youâre also focusing on folks in eating disorder recovery.
Elizabeth
Yeah, so basically folks who hold multiple marginalized identities are really who we serve the most. Thatâs just how it honestly just started happening because of the people Iâm connected with onlin,e and the places I was advertising this pantry.
So many folks in recovery struggle with food security. Because the recovery models we were talking about earlier really emphasize âYou need to always have food available.â You need to have snacks. So Recovery has been hard for them because that. Recovery has been hard for me because of that. I donât always have a cupboard full of snacks and multiple choices even though thatâs something in recovery that weâre told to do. Iâm laughing because they say, âJust make sure you fill your pantry.â Like everyone has a pantry! Theyâre like, âfill your pantry with all the food you can.â
Virginia
First, we need to get a pantry.
Elizabeth
Number one.
Virginia
When does that get delivered?
Elizabeth
Exactly! So there are so many people in the recovery community telling us, âOh my goodness, this is what I needed. Like, thank you so much. Itâs impossible to keep myself nourished without this assistance, this has been amazing.â
Coming from that world, I couldnât have asked for a better outcome. Itâs beyond hard to recover in this world weâre living in without assistance. So maybe 65 percent of who we serve are actively in recovery or currently have an eating disorder.
And there is also a large population of folks with disabilities. People who are mobility impaired, or even young people and youth who donât have a car to get somewhere. There are so many folks with multiple marginalized identities who rely on us. Itâs beyond what I even thought.
Virginia
Are you focusing on a particular geographic area?
Elizabeth
Good question. Itâs nationwide. Because itâs virtualâthatâs another thing I wanted to not be a barrier. If you can apply online, if you have access to computer at workâIâm trying for accessibility purposes to have another way to apply as well, but as of now, you apply online, and you can be anywhere. As long as you live somewhere that has a local grocery store that delivers, then you can use our services.
Virginia
Thatâs really, really great.
So as youâre working in this food justice space⌠what youâre doing is meeting an immediate critical need. People need to eat today. People are working on their recovery, they need access to food. And the reason this need is so dire is because of many larger structural failings in our systems. So how do you think about like, âOkay, Iâm trying to put out this immediate fire. But we need so much larger change as well.â
How do you kind of hold that together?
Elizabeth
Sometimes it does make me sad, because Iâm like, âOh, is this just a band aid for something systemic.â But I believe that what weâre doing can eventually be just the way folks are given the resources they need. It doesnât need to be what weâve always had. Why canât you just pick? Why does it have to be food that might not be good anymore? Expiring, not fresh, food thatâs offered? Why is that the only thing that weâre saying is acceptable?
So Iâm really trying to get the word out that, hey, weâre doing something thatâs working. And yes, itâs for folks who are facing food insecurity now but you know, all these organizations that have these elaborate setups where theyâre pre-boxing things, you can do it a different way.
Virginia
So youâre creating a new model that hopefully other organizations will replicate.
Elizabeth
Absolutely.
Virginia
As your organization continues to grow, this is something you can scale up, because of the way youâve designed it. Youâre helping connect people to their local grocery store. This isnât you needing to build some whole infrastructure of warehouses, right?
Elizabeth
Exactly. Thatâs eliminated. We donât have to pay rents to store a bunch of boxed items. I donât think people are looking at things like that with the current systems that are in place.
Virginia
And obviously, it would be amazing if programs like SNAP and welfare were providing more resources for folks. But given the current political climate, weâre going to be lucky to hold onto any social safety net we have left.
Elizabeth
Like, any. And thatâs the same how I was saying earlier. Like, middle of pandemic, people were just so traumatized. People were just kind of numb. And like, âI donât know what to do, I need food to eat, though.â Iâm seeing it now again, like this year the same. Iâm like, whoa. This is history repeating.
Virginia
I think people are feeling a lot of the same panic, embarrassment, and uncertainty about whatâs happening next. Everything is feeling extremely unstable.
Elizabeth
Absolutely.
Virginia
So making sure people have a way to feed themselves todayâitâs something we can do. There is all this bigger change that needs to happen, and we can contribute to that however we can. But this kind of direct aid to people getting fed today is something that we can do, and really is crucial right now. We canât do the rest if people arenât eating. This is the starting point.
I mean, Iâve worked on pieces about childhood hunger over the years, and I know youâre focusing more on adults, but it blows my mind how often organizations that work on hunger have to show research to convince people that kids canât learn if theyâre hungry. And itâs just like, why did we need to have to do a study? Why did you need data?
Elizabeth
Yes, they need to see the numbers. Itâs fascinating to me. When I tell folks stuff based on my lived experience of going to pantries, not having enough, or not having access in the area. Theyâre like, âOh, okay, we just need you to type that all up, and we need to see where you got that data.â And Iâm just likeâŚwhere I got that data? From my life! And so many people I know! That blows my mind, the amount of data folks are requesting when it comes to food insecurity.
Virginia
We shouldnât have to explain it or justify it. It should just be obvious that people need enough food to eat. Thatâs the baseline.
So Burnt Toast, we have a mission!
Our goal is to raise $6,000 by June 1 for the Me Little Me Foundation to support the virtual free food pantry project.
When we reach that $6,000 goal, Burnt Toast (the newsletter and podcast) will match that with another $6,000. So we have a chance to raise $12,000 for Me Little Me to help them make a big push on this work.
Elizabeth, tell us a little bit about what those funds will mean for your organization. What are we going to help you do? And then, of course, what do folks need to do to donate?
Elizabeth
Oh, my goodness. It would just help us so immensely. Just to break it down:
$100 worth of groceries means folks can make a minimum of 20 home cooked meals. So if we raise $6,000 thatâs literally 1200 home cooked meals that we could provide.
Virginia
Thatâs awesome.
Elizabeth
It would help us so much, because we always have more applications than the resources. Itâs crushing. Applications will be open for 24 hours and we have to shut them down because weâre just so overwhelmed. And say, âIâm so sorry. Please try back next quarter.â Iâm trying to raise more money. Iâm not going to let you all down.
So it would help us immensely. Iâm trying to play it cool. This is my cool and collected voice, but Iâm sort of squealing inside.
Virginia
Well, I think what youâre doing is so important. And we have over 65,000 people on the Burnt Toast list! This is not a big ask for anyone. A few bucks will cover one of these meals that weâre trying to raise money for. If you have 100 bucks, great! Thatâs 20 meals youâve covered.
This is the kind of community effort that is giving me hope right now, thatâs making me feel like the entire worldâs not falling off a cliff. We can get this done. And I think actually, we can exceed this goal.
The second piece of our challenge is: If youâre able, please become a monthly donor!
Whether thatâs $5 a month or $100 a monthâwhich would buy 20 meals a month! Do it!
We are setting a goal to add 25 new recurring donors to the Me Little Me rosters. Burnt Toast is already a recurring donor, but we want 25 of you to sign up to be a recurring donors, too. So take whatever gift you were going to give and divide it by 12; break it up monthly and donate that. Because recurring donations are really critical to organizations like this. Elizabeth, you can speak a little bit to why that matters so much.
Elizabeth
Because the need is ongoing. Weâre inundated every time we open the pantry, and the recurring donations will help us reach our ultimate goal of being able to see real systemic change and have this just be something thatâs in place. So of course, yes, please if youâre able to just give a few dollars we would love that. But if you can support us on a monthly basis in any capacity, itâll just be such a big weight off of the shoulders of so many folks who rely on these services.
Virginia
Recurring donations help nonprofits plan. Itâs money they can rely on and actually look ahead and not just be scrambling.
Elizabeth
Scrambleâthatâs the perfect word. I get a little stressed every time we open the pantry.
Virginia
Well, I am really excited. I really appreciate you reaching out and giving us this opportunity to support what youâre doing. I think itâs so meaningful and so important. And, Burnt Toast, letâs get it done.
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Butter
Elizabeth
Something I discovered, I think by accident, is painting on burlapâlike the material that they make sacks out of. Itâs so random. They sell it at craft stores. And there was just some on sale. So I have just regular paints at home from ages ago that I just didnât want to throw away. And, yeah, I just started. I stuck some burlap on a piece of wood, and just started painting it. And it just was so soothing. Just the surface of it, the texture, just painting over the burlap. And I was like, oh my gosh. Do people know about this?
Virginia
I did not! This is amazing.
Elizabeth
So not painting on canvas, but on burlap material. Even if you make a mistake, it still looks nice.
Virginia
What kind of paint are you using?
Elizabeth
It was literally paint that you would get at a hardware store, like if you were painting a wall in your house. They have specific fabric paintâbecause Iâm going down a rabbit hole with it nowâbut that works just fine. Like, if you go to a hardware store and get a sample size, thatâs what I had. I had a bunch of little samples. so I just started painting words on the burlap and making little gift things. And it was just so soothing. So thatâs just a really random activity.
Virginia
Thatâs a great Butter. Thank you. Iâve been noticing a little trend with guests lately, where a lot of the Butters are people are really drawn to something that gets them off their phone, off the computer, kind of like an absorbing project. Absorbing projects have been a trend in butters, and I am a big fan. Iâm a big jigsaw puzzle person and gardener. Like these tactile things that get us out of our heads a little bit are just great.
Elizabeth
Oh, wonderful. Oh, Iâm so glad to hear that.
Virginia
My Butter is going to be somewhat related, and itâs a repeat Butter. Iâve recommended it before, but we have this great bird feeder. Itâs called the Bird Buddy, and it has a camera in it, so it takes pictures of the birds for you and sends them to your phone. Itâs not cheap, but they do go on sale from time to time. I will link to it.
But anyway, we moved the feeders to a new part of the garden, and we hung up our hummingbird feeder and another type of feederâand just all of the birds that are coming now are making me so happy.
Elizabeth
I can imagine!
Virginia
Iâm That Mom now. Iâm like, âGuys, there are more goldfinches! Have you seen the goldfinches??â And one of my kids loves birds, and one of them doesnât care. So Iâm being a little excessive, and theyâre like, okay, yes, we see.
But I think itâs the same thing of â Iâm needing beauty thatâs not in the Internet. Thatâs taking me away. And theyâre so soothing to watch. So bird feeders, specifically, the camera one is really fun, but bird feeders in general, is my Butter today.
Elizabeth
Oh, now I want to see the photos of the birds.
Virginia
Oh, Iâll send you some. Itâs pretty exciting.
Elizabeth, thank you so much. Letâs just remind everyone again, how to support you, how to donate to Me Little Me.
Elizabeth
You can go to MeLittleMeFoundation.org and thereâs a donate page where you can make a one time donation or become a recurring donor.
You can get updates on our Instagram.
You can also get updates about my film at Me Little Me Film on Instagram.
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your May Indulgence Gospel!
Today, fan favorite Brianna Campos joins us again to talk more about⌠fat dating and sex!
Weâre answering your questions, like:
âď¸ How do you navigate certain positions in bigger bodies?
âď¸ How do you talk to new partners about what your body needs?
âď¸ Are âoral sex skillsâ a myth?
âď¸ AndâŚwho is Virginia dating now?
To hear the full story, youâll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.
If youâre already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinneâs newsletter about clothes, for 20% off.
You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where youâll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!
This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!
Episode 191 Transcript
Virginia
Okay, for anyone who missed her last visit: Bri is a licensed professional counselor and body image coach who works with folks recovering from eating disorders and finding body acceptance through grief. She joined me on the podcast back in February to talk about her work and her experiences dating in a superfat body, and you all loved that conversation so much.
We have asked Bri to join us again, this time to help Corinne and I answer your questions. So welcome Bri!
Bri
Thank you so much for having me back. What an honor.
Virginia
Well we have some very spicy questions to discuss today. I hope youâre feeling ready.
Bri
Iâm so ready.
Corinne
In todayâs episode, weâre going to talk very practically about the mechanics of fat sex. Some of the questions are pretty graphic, so you might not want to listen to this one with kids around. You may not even want to listen with friends around!
!!! And if youâre related to anyone who is on the podcast today, you may not want to listen to this episode!!!
Virginia
I would say, you are strongly encouraged to skip this one, actually.
Corinne
Moms, siblings.
Virginia
Dads, brothers, whatever. More content for you is coming. This one isnât it.
Bri
We appreciate the support.
Corinne
Okay, hereâs question number one:
My cis male partner and I (a cis female) have been together eight years. We have both gained belly weight in that time, and now missionary is tricky, especially if I need to use a hand to stimulate my clit. Plus, itâs harder for him to get as deep with bellies in the way. Weâve tried, him standing/me on the edge of the bed, him kneeling, and my hips up and other variations. Iâve been thinking about a wedge pillow, but that definitely takes the spontaneity out of it. Any tips?
Bri
I mean, Iâll dive right in.
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You are listening to Burnt Toast!
Today, my guest is Jessica Slice, a disabled mom and author of the brilliant new book, Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World.
Jessica is also the co-author of Dateable: Swiping Right, Hooking Up, and Settling Down While Chronically Ill and Disabled, and This Is How We Play: A Celebration of Disability and Adaptation, as well as the forthcoming This Is How We Talk and We Belong. She has been published in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Alice Wongâs bestselling Disability Visibility and more.
As Jessica puts it, she originally wrote this book for disabled parents because their stories are not told or centered. But Jessica soon realized she was writing a book for all parents, because becoming a parent is its own kind of experience with disability.
There are so many important intersections between disability, justice and fat liberation. One that I think about a lot is how both groups come up against the question: Donât we owe it to our kids to be healthy? Jessicaâs perspective on these issues is expansive, inclusive and enlightening. I know you will get so much out of this conversation and from reading unfit parent.
You can take 10 percent off Unfit Parent, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if youâve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)
PS. If you enjoy todayâs conversation, please tap the heart on this post â likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substackâs Notes, so thatâs a super easy, free way to support the show!
Follow Jessica: Jessicaslice.com. Iâm on Instagram @JessicaSlice, I have a Substack where I send monthly notes about Disabled Parenting, and then usually try to get people to read whatever poem Iâm fixated on that month.
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your April Extra Butter.
Today weâre talking about plus size influencers getting weight loss surgery. Weâll get into:
âď¸ Is this the start of the Ozempic backlash?
âď¸ How much do public figures owe their audiences?
âď¸ How to hold space for body autonomy with weight loss journeys.
This is a complicated conversation! To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, youâll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.
Subscriptions are $99 per year â but if youâre already a regular paid subscriber, youâll only pay the difference.
In these monthly episodes, we get into the GOOD stuff like:
Is Mel Robbins a Diet?
Dating While Fat
What to do when you miss your smaller body
Is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet?
And did Virginia really get divorced over butter?
Extra Butters also get exclusive weekly chats, DM access, and a monthly bonus essay or thread. And Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free spaceâwhich is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!
(Questions? Glitches? Email Virginia all the details, and cc [email protected].)
PS. If Extra Butter isnât the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.
If youâre already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinneâs newsletter about clothes, for 20% off.
PS. You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where youâll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!
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You are listening to Burnt Toast!
Today, my guest is the brilliant Jasmine Guillory.
Jasmine is a New York Times-bestselling author of nine novels, including The Wedding Date, The Proposal, and her brand new book Flirting Lessons.
This is an absolutely delightful conversation. Jasmine and I get into why she is publishing her first queer romance. We talk a lot about fat rep in romance novels, and we also talk about gardening. Itâs so much fun!
You can order Flirting Lessons through the Burnt Toast Bookshop. Donât forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)
PS. If you enjoy todayâs conversation, please tap the heart on this post â likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substackâs Notes, so thatâs a super easy, free way to support the show!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your April Indulgence Gospel!
Subscribe now
These episodes are usually only for paid subscribers but weâre releasing this one for free! If you like it, you can get even more Virginia by becoming a paid Burnt Toast subscriber â and then youâll get even more Corinne, because paid Burnt Toasties can take 20% off their Big Undies subscription!
Bundle with Big Undies!
There has been so much conversation in online spaces over the past few months about divesting from social media. Folks are dropping X, Facebook, Instagram as a form of protest against billionaire tech bros like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. And a lot of us are also feeling the need to doom scroll less as a form of self care. Plus, when Tiktok drops a new Chubby filter, it doesnât really make us want to be there.
So today weâre chatting about how weâre both feeling about social media. What are we divesting from? Howâs it going? And does any of this feel like a diet?
Kmatta, Getty Images
PS. You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where youâll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!
This transcript does contain affiliate links; shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for a bonus March Indulgence Gospel!
Today weâre chatting about:
âď¸ How to talk to your kids about (your) weight loss and/or GLP-1 use.
âď¸ How to handle medically-advised diets without gettingâŚdiet-y.
âď¸Our favorite leggings (we stand by all these recs!)
âď¸Dealing with haters⌠and more!
To hear the full story, youâll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.
If youâre already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinneâs newsletter about clothes, for 20% off.
You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where youâll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!
Todayâs episode is a rerun; weâre bringing you episode 100, which ran in June 2023âsuch a simpler time! But we had a really valuable conversation about how to talk to kids about body changes, especially if youâre losing weight on Ozempic and we thought it might be a helpful one to revisit now. Plus there is our usual smattering of assorted random Indulgence Gospel topics. And dahlias! Enjoy.
PS. This transcript does contain affiliate links; shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!
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This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your March Extra Butter.
Today weâre talking about Dr. Becky Kennedy, the beloved parenting influencer. Weâll get into:
âď¸ The Dr. Becky mantra that Virginia usesâŚoften.
âď¸Why you donât need to cook dinner for your kids at 3pm.
âď¸ The infamous âschool nurse callâ post.
âď¸ Is Dr. Becky â and parenting content more broadlyâ a diet or diet-adjacent?
To hear this episode, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber!
Subscriptions are $99 per year â but if youâre already a regular paid subscriber, youâll only pay the difference.
In these monthly episodes, we get into the GOOD stuff like:
Is Mel Robbins a Diet?
Dating While Fat
Why all the fat influencers are getting skinny
AndâŚdid Virginia really get divorced over butter?
Extra Butters also get exclusive weekly chats, DM access, and a monthly bonus essay or thread. And Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free spaceâwhich is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!
(Questions? Glitches? Email Virginia all the details, and cc [email protected].)
PS. If Extra Butter isnât the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.
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Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your March Indulgence Gospel!
Indulgence Gospel episodes are usually only for paid subscribers but weâre releasing this one for free! If you like it, you can get even more Virginia by becoming a paid Burnt Toast subscriber â and then youâll get even more Corinne, because paid Burnt Toasties can take 20% off their Big Undies subscription!
Today weâre chatting about:
âď¸ Navigating fitness spaces designed for smaller bodies!
âď¸ Feelings about hair color!
âď¸ Do Virginia and Corinne like sports now? đ
âď¸ And what to do when it seems like everyone is on a weight loss drug.
PS. You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where youâll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undiesâsubscribe for 20% off!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
Iâm Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is Amy Palanjian.
Amy is my work wife and best friend of over 20 years. Sheâs also the creator of Yummy Toddler Food and author of the nationally bestselling cookbook Dinnertime SOS: 100 Sanity-Saving Meals Parents and Kids of All Ages Will Actually Want to Eat.
Amy joined me last month at Split Rock Books to celebrate the launch of FAT TALK in paperback. They also host the Burnt Toast Bookshop for us, and are forever the place to get my books signed and personalized however you like!
So we talked about the book, of course, but we also got into how family dinners have changed for us post-divorce, why cooking with kids is terrible, and then Amy outed my (not so) secret love of protein powder. đ
(Bear with some imperfect audio, since we werenât recording with our usual set-up â but Tommy worked his magic as usual so itâs still highly listen-to-able!)
If you find todayâs episode valuable, a paid subscription is the best way to support this work!
Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)
PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where youâll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And please tap the heart on this post â likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substackâs Notes, so thatâs a super easy, free way to support the show!
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
Today Virginia is chatting with Brianna Campos.
Bri is a licensed professional counselor and body image coach who works with folks recovering from eating disorders, and finding body acceptance through grief. You may know Bri from Instagram, or from her newsletter, Body Image with Bri.
Bri and I talk about why this concept of body grief is so importantâand yet so often overlooked in this work. And she shares how doing her own body grief work has led her to have a happier relationship with her body and to start dating againâconfidently and with a lot of joy as a superfat person.
If you find todayâs episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription!
Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)
To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber â subscriptions are just $7 per month! âto get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes.
And donât forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content!
Disclaimer: Youâre listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.
FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.
Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com
Hi Burnt Toasties!
Weâre resending Thursdayâs podcast episode because we had a little mix up: Our deep dive into Mel Robbinsâ Cult of High Fives was supposed to be Februaryâs Extra Butter episodeâbut it ran with an invitation to subscribe at the regular paid level to access it. Which a bunch of you did, and then were understandably confused when you still couldnât listen!!
This was totally our goof. So to make it right, weâre re-releasing the episode today for ALL paid subscribers!
If you have yet to go paidâthat means you can now access one of our premium episodes for as little as $7 today.
If youâre already a paid subscriber â thank you! Enjoy!
Weâre hoping, of course, that youâll love this chat about our buddy Mel so much that youâll still consider upgrading from regular paid to Extra Butter. EB is our premium tier, which means you get access to what is usually our juiciest podcast episode of the month, like dating while fat, why all the fat influencers are getting skinny, andâŚdid Virginia really get divorced over butter?
Extra Butters also get exclusive weekly chats, DM access, and a monthly bonus essay or thread. And these subscriptions ensure that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free spaceâwhich is crucial for body liberation journalism.
Whatever youâve paid towards your regular paid membership will be put towards the upgrade â so you wonât pay the full $99 fee. Join us here!
But no matter which subscription tier is right for youâthank you so much for supporting Burnt Toast!
-Virginia & Corinne
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This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your February Indulgence Gospel.
Today weâre talking about Mel Robbins! Weâre going to get into:
âď¸ Is Mel Robbins diet culture or anti-diet? Is she just Andrew Huberman for the We Can Do Hard Things crowd?
âď¸ Corinne & Virginiaâs difference of opinion
âď¸ The big Mel Robbins controversy
âď¸ Will we start high fiving ourselves in the mirror?
To hear our discussion, youâll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.
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Today Virginia is chatting with Helen Rosner.
Helen is a staff writer at The New Yorker. She has been covering food for more than a decade as a writer and editor, and won a 2024 James Beard Award for her weekly restaurant-review column, The Food Scene. She is an expert on sandwiches and many other important subjects.
And I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Helen last month at Books Are Magic in Brooklyn (hi Emma Straub thank you so much for having us!!), at a live event to celebrate the paperback release of Fat Talk. (They should still have a few signed copies in stock if you need one!)
We talked about the book, of course, but we talked about so many other fat- and food-adjacent topics, that I knew I wanted to bring it to you as a podcast episode.
(Bear with some imperfect audio, since we werenât recording with our usual set-up â but Tommy worked his magic as usual so itâs still highly listen-to-able!)
If you find todayâs episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription!
Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)
To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber â subscriptions are just $7 per month! âto get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes.
And donât forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content!
Disclaimer: Youâre listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.
FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.
Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism.
This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com/subscribe -
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit virginiasolesmith.substack.com
Youâre listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and itâs time for your February Indulgence Gospel.
Today weâre updating you on our great experiment: How did we do with 30 days of NO AMAZON? Weâre going to get into:
âď¸ Why did we quit Amazon in the first place?
âď¸ Is quitting Amazon a dietâor at least, diet culture-adjacent?
âď¸ What was our biggest fail?
âď¸ Will we keep going???
To hear the full story, youâll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.
To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undiesâsubscribe for 20% off!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
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