Afleveringen
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S02E01 Reintroducing the Chinese Revolutions Podcast
This is a rambling episode pushed out to get the ball rolling, getting this podcast going again.
The next big thing on the agenda is the Boxer Rebellion. We'll do some episodes in the run up to the Boxer Rebellion, and then we'll spend some good time on the next major revolutionary inflection point before the Qing Dynasty is taken out with the garbage.
The Boxer Rebellion is going to illustrate the problems of the people and the political classes of China, both with sclerotic domestic conditions and intrusive, oppressive foreign intervention, imposition, and influence on China.
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S01E42 Taiping Rebellion: Epilogue
In this episode, we finish up our coverage of the Taiping Rebellion, as such. In following episodes, we'll do a little more with how the roots in the succeeding era come on from interactions between the Qing Dynasty government and foreign powers.
We follow the final chapter of Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom: China, the West, and the Epic Story of the Taiping Civil War by Stephen R. Platt.
While the Taiping inspired later generations of revolutionaries, they ultimately failed to carry through a successful revolution. This episode looks at why, and what future revolutionary movements will have to do to succeed.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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S01E41: Taiping Rebellion: The Siege of Nanjing
In this episode, we deal with the Siege of Nanjing. As the extremely brutal culmination of years of already brutal fighting, the Qing loyalist forces of Zeng Guofan finally storm the Taiping capital and put a permanent end to the top leadership of the rebellion.
Again, drawing on Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom by Stephen R. Platt.
The central questions pivotal to future revolutions we'll deal with:
What is the Chinese nation, who are the Chinese people?What does a modern Chinese state, competitive in the modern world, look like?Next episode we'll deal with the epilogue from Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom.
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S01E40 Fast Forwarding to the End of the Taiping Rebellion
In this episode, I take a rambling skim through several chapters of Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom. There is a lot of content I want to get to, other than the blow by blow of the Taiping Rebellion.
I'm fast forwarding to the end of this one so we can get through it and get on to other revolutions.
We'll still be doing things with this book, because it has a lot of material related to the period after the Taiping Rebellion, but the emphasis will be on what comes after, rather than the Taiping Rebellion.
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S01E39 Taiping Rebellion: Siege of Anqing, On the Edge of a Knife
Some points of review on where we left the Taiping Rebellion story.
We're getting back into the Taiping Rebellion. We'll be following the story of Zeng Guofan most closely. For Zeng Guofan, dogged determination and luck keep him in the game.
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S01E38 We're Back! Thoughts on the Future of the Podcast
We're back from break! While I've been away, I've still been doing reading on China and thinking about the podcast, thinking about how to keep moving it forward.
I'll probably move to a more modular approach: 2-3 episodes on a topic, a person, an event. Episodes to tie the narrative together. Also a lot on international context, the world in which Chinese revolutionaries are seeking to reconstitute the Chinese state.
Lately I've been reading Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall, covering the French go at having a Vietnam War in the early 1950s. It really shows how the Vietnamese Communists were savvy, competent fighters of modern war and modern politics, but having to account for their very different resources than available to the French. When we get to the Chinese revolutionaries, we'll see how they're fully modern and competent, but they have to be very resourceful to get where they're going.
I've been listening to the podcast The Age of Napoleon by E. M. Rummage. This has inspired my thinking about how to put a podcast together and how to go about focusing on a much longer span of history.
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S01E37 Taiping Rebellion: Taiping Propaganda Under Hong Rengan
Here we go, grinding back into gear with this year's episodes. This episode's title addresses one of the main actual insights in the episode, not quite what it's about.
Hong Rengan is working on planning the modern government structure of the future of the Taiping government apparatus. He follows the pattern of the contemporary Chinese state to show order and continuity, to give confidence to the people they'd have to be governing.
Hong Rengan, clearly smart and competent, runs into the trouble of the old guard Taiping leadership. They had been there from the beginning, but his only connection was his family relationship with the "Heavenly King," Hong Xiuquan.
Taiping PropagandaAs the Taiping Rebellion stretches on, the actual Taiping ideology is decreasingly the thing they'll turn to, to appeal to the people of China. All of China has seen what foreign powers have been able to do to China, and messaging about who should be the legitimate dynasty had to address that.
A central bit of the messaging was race-based, ethnic conflict-based. The Qing were foreign invaders, not native Han. That was something all native Han could understand and get onboard with.
Zeng Guofan is Still Out ThereThe Qing Dynasty, by its continued existence, threatens the success of the Taiping Rebellion. Zeng Guofan, dogged, duty-driven enemy of the Taiping, still has his small force working its way toward defeating the Taiping.
We'll be coming back to him shortly
A Note on the Future of This SeriesI'm going to figure out how to get to the end of the Taiping Rebellion. I've answered a lot of the questions I had for myself about what this rebellion shows for the central thesis of the podcast, so I'm going to try to jump toward the end in not too many more episodes.
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S01E36 Taiping Rebellion: Other Foreign Visitors to the Taiping
In this episode, we look at more of the visitors to Hong Rengan, effective foreign minister for the Taiping.
First is Griffith John, a Welsh missionary. He came on a factfinding mission to see what Nanjing was like under the Taiping. He thought the Taiping were very wrong, religiously speaking, but he thought he saw an opportunity for missionary work, were they to win the war.
Yung Wing, an American-educated young Chinese man, came to look at the part of China held by the Taiping and ultimately used the opportunity to get access to tea growing areas rather than to join up with the rebels.
We further discuss how national characteristics ultimately poke through the revolution as nations adjust to new reality after everything changes. The more things change, the more they stay the same, as it were.
Hat tip to the Revolutions podcast by Mike Duncan for some of the insights in this episode concerning the Russian Revolution.
We're still following Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom: China, the West, and the Epic Story of the Taiping Civil War by Stephen R. Platt
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S01E35 Taiping Rebellion: Issachar Roberts
In the present look at Hong Rengan in the Taiping hierarchy, we are looking at some of the foreigners who drifted over to the Taiping side. This episode focuses on eccentric loose cannon missionary Issachar Roberts.
In this episode, we see an example of how the Taiping were a little "too Chinese" to make a successful revolution: they focused too much on maintaining the appearance of being a traditional Chinese dynasty to fully digest useful foreign ideas, science, and technology.
Issachar Roberts went in thinking he was going to be a mentor to the leader of the Taiping, but he pretty much ended up doing foreign relations and PR chores.
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Please reach out at [email protected] and let me know what you think!
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S01E34 Taiping Rebellion: Foreigners and Revolutions
In this episode we're shifting back to look at the Taiping side of the Taiping Rebellion. We look at how the Taiping Rebellion works out to be a failed, an incomplete revolution. It brings out certain problems that future revolutions will resolve, but it fails in certain critical ways.
We further look at how foreigners influence what China does, but ultimately the permanent changes are decided by Chinese people in China. Hong Rengan was the highest level Taiping figure who had deep familiarity with foreign cultures, but his power base was not quite right for bringing what he knew into the Taiping movement.
As we push on toward the end of the Taiping Rebellion episodes of this podcast, we'll be looking at how it sets up future revolutions.
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S01E33 Taiping Rebellion: Siege of Anqing Begins
In this episode, we wrap up a bunch of episodes on Zeng Guofan. We talk about the human element in war, how Zeng Guofan is conserving his troops' morale and will to fight, and how he's taking on much larger numbers through careful strategy and tactics.
The American Civil War (1861-1865) was contemporaneous with a lot of the Taiping Rebellion, and a lot of what motivated the troops was the same: did the general have an idea how to win? were they fighting for home? I draw some parallels from that war to illustrate Taiping Rebellion military realities.
In following episodes we'll get back to looking at how it's going on the Taiping side of things. This episode wraps up the look at opposition to the Taiping finally coming together.
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S01E32 Taiping Rebellion: Zeng Guofan Perfects His Strategy
In this episode, we see Zeng Guofan start to get a grip on the task of fighting the Taiping Rebellion. He has to balance between the political necessities of showing his troops that fighting far from home is a way to protect home and achieving strategic results for the emperor.
Zeng Guofan additionally is promoted to regular positions in the Qing hierarchy that give him control over competing regular army units and local militias and sources of supplies for his troops.
Old Chinese saying, “When the general is outside the capital, the ruler’s orders won’t be followed.” Zeng Guofan was following the emperor's big picture orders, but he tactfully declined to fulfill orders that took him off his main goal: capturing Nanjing.
Books Referenced in Today's EpisodeThe Army and Vietnam by Andrew Krepinevich
Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom by Stephen R. Platt
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S01E31 Taiping Rebellion: Zeng Guofan Starts Attacking
In this episode, we go over the organization of Zeng Guofan's army and the first few years of his campaigns against the Taiping rebels.
We are following the book Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom: China, the West, and the Epic Story of the Taiping Civil War by Stephen R. Platt for this episode.
Motivating the ArmyZeng Guofan's army recruited in Hunan had local loyalties, but not a strong attachment to the emperor. The soldiers were well paid to shore up their personal motivation to fight well and not steal from locals in areas they moved through.
Songs were composed to instruct soldiers in proper conduct on campaign. Because of the importance of local support to defeating the Taiping, it was critical to prevent soldiers from stealing from local people.
Zeng Guofan's Political RealitiesZeng Guofan had to deal with opposition from local elites, officials, and others. Whatever their reasons, his local opponents made his job extremely difficult to the point that he attempted suicide twice after big defeats.
Some victories helped Zeng Guofan silence some critics, but his work was an uphill battle on both the military and political sides of his mission.
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S01E30 Taiping Rebellion: Zeng Guofan Builds His Army
In this episode, we look at the process that Zeng Guofan went through to build his army. When he was in Hunan to mourn the death of his mother, in 1853 he accepted the mission from the emperor to take charge of military affairs in the province.
Ordinarily, the Han elements of the Qing army had a divided command structure to keep them from uniting against the Manchurian dynasty. Due to the extreme emergency situation, the emperor gave Zeng Guofan unified command authority.
Zeng Guofan was not a military man, but he set up a plan based on discipline and he insisted on "kill or be killed" approaches to training.
We draw upon Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom: China, the West, and the Epic Story of the Taiping Civil War by Stephen R. Platt.
Including insights from The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alistair Smith.
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S01E29 Taiping Rebellion: Introducing Zeng Guofan
This week we regroup and look at the big picture of what the Taiping Rebellion is showing about the theme of our podcast, and we introduce Zeng Guofan, a guy we here at Chinese Revolutions (we as in the "more fun to say 'we' than 'I' because it makes it seem like I've got a whole department") have been excited to talk about for a long time.
The Taiping Rebellion made China's lack of sovereignty problem longer and worse. The rebels could trade with foreigners, making it seem like foreign powers could do whatever they wanted, whenever. Then the official side of the foreign powers decided to have a Second Opium War, knocking the official authorities flat.
Zeng GuofanZeng Guofan (1811-1872) was a Confucian scholar of the highest possible rank. He came from a poor but educated farming family in Hunan. Where his father tried to pass the lowest examination well into his 40s, Zeng Guofan passed at 22.
He will be appointed the task of suppressing the Taiping Rebellion not because he was a military man but because he could be trusted to handle the political question of how to recruit and deploy forces to crush the rebellion.
What Makes for a Successful Revolution?We took a digression into what China's reconfiguration would have to look like, for a revolution to be successful. The conclusion for now is:
Restoration of Chinese sovereigntySolidification of an economy that rewards free enterpriseAllotment of state power to protect the production of resources and rule-based distribution of rewards for that productionAnd we're only going to see this come through after the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949.
We'll explore that thesis as the podcast goes on.
Books Cited in Today's PodcastBy Peter Padfield
Maritime Supremacy and the Opening of the Western Mind: Naval Campaigns that Shaped the Modern World, 1588–1782Maritime Power and the Struggle for Freedom: Naval Campaigns that Shaped the Modern World, 1788–1851Maritime Dominion and the Triumph of the Free World: Naval Campaigns that Shaped the Modern World, 1852–2001If You'd Like to Support the PodcastSubscribe, share, leave a rating.Give once, give monthly at www.buymeacoffee.com/crpodcastSubscribe to the substack newsletter at https://chineserevolutions.substack.com/Also...
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S01E28 Taiping Rebellion: Unequal Treaties and Modernizing China
This week, we're talking about how the unequal treaties forced on China during the Second Opium War further clarified anti-imperialism as a driver in later Chinese revolutions.
Foreign powers readily turned to force to push things along in China whenever dialogue got stuck. Force had worked before, and they thought force was the only language that the Chinese consistently understood.
Foreign Powers' Neutrality in Taiping Rebellion ConflictPart of this episode will follow Lord Elgin's travels up and down the Yangtze River. British engagement with the Taiping was an interesting mixed bag: they despised the uncouth manners of Taiping representatives but appreciated the possible trade opportunities the Taiping might possibly have offered.
Yet, British and other foreign powers' policy of neutrality in the Taiping Rebellion meant that they had to work with both sides of the conflict to ensure that trade agreements with one side or the other produced anything.
And so that leaves open the possibility of future foreign intervention on one side or the other of the conflict.
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S01E27 Taiping Rebellion: Second Opium War-Storming the Dagu Forts
As part of the ongoing series on the Taiping Rebellion, we're taking a look at the storming of the Dagu Forts, which guarded the waterway approaching Beijing. While the civil war between official Qing forces and Taiping rebels was going on, the foreign powers decided to push their own issues with the Qing government.
Of interest to us is how this reduced the prestige and authority of the Qing Dynasty. While the Taiping Rebellion ultimately failed, it advanced the specific understanding of later revolutionaries who would overthrow the Qing: get rid of the foreign Manchu overlords and replace the imperial dynastic system.
Storming the Dagu FortsIn May 1858, a combined British-French fleet bombarded and took the Dagu Forts by storm. This was the most important Chinese coastal fortification, protecting the direct waterway to Beijing.
Foreign powers were careful not to act unilaterally, keeping the balance of power between foreign powers acting in China and trying to demonstrate to the Chinese that they weren't trying for a trade monopoly.
They succeeded in forcing the Qing government to negotiate a new treaty with foreign powers, granting additional trade concessions and freedom of movement for foreign nationals.
The most galling concession for Qing prestige was the permanent stationing of European ambassadors in Beijing. The path foreign diplomatic staff would take was the traditional route for foreign tribute missions. This time, the foreigners would be coming and going with zero tokens of submission to the Chinese emperor.
About the Taiping Rebellion...Foreign powers were trying to be neutral in the Taiping Rebellion. They just wanted to sell their products and buy Chinese products.
What distinguished foreign intervention in China from imperial ventures elsewhere was the relative lack of attempts to conquer and rule portions of Chinese territory. Yet foreign armies ran all over China, looting, killing, and destroying anyhow.
Foreign powers would ultimately intervene on behalf of the Qing, but it wouldn't leave them looking like the ones in charge.
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S01E26 Taiping Rebellion: Hong Rengan in Nanjing
In this episode, we go over Hong Rengan's journey from Hong Kong to Nanjing, what it was like when he got there, and his prospects for changing the Taiping movement.
Today's episode substantially based on Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom: China, the West, and the Epic Story of the Taiping Civil War by Stephen R. Platt.
The Journey to NanjingHong Rengan traveled overland in disguise to Nanjing. Along the way, he saw the devastation wrought by conquest and reconquest of the same areas, and the consequences of long-term occupation by both armies.
He succeeded in penetrating Qing lines because the troops varied widely in competence and they didn't search him especially closely. He was arrested and held for a few days, but managed to escape. When he did make contact with a Taiping patrol, he was arrested as a possible Qing spy, but ultimately managed to convince the commander that he was connected to Hong Xiuquan.
In NanjingNanjing was a formerly glorious city run by a cult under siege. Much of the population left for the countryside. Much of the city was abandoned and run down.
Hong Xiuquan lived in imperial seclusion. Hong Rengan's arrival provided Hong Xiuquan a badly needed top-level advisor. Hong Rengan's rapid promotion made a number of the other top commanders jealous, but for the moment, he was able to convince them he knew his stuff and he'd be a good addition to the team.
Looking AheadThe Taiping Rebellion will fail. The foreign powers will intervene in the conflict, and the Taiping will critically fail to make the right connections to have the foreign powers intervene on their side.
The Taiping Rebellion will nevertheless bring out the cause of liberating the Han people (the majority of Chinese) from foreign Manchu rule.
We will see how the Taiping Rebellion will advance the revolutions yet to come.
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S01E25 Taiping Rebellion: Hong Rengan
Today we're looking at the re-emergence of Hong Rengan, younger cousin of Taiping leader Hong Xiuquan. Hong Rengan was one of the earliest converts, but he was cut off from the main Taiping group early and he had to run away to British Hong Kong to survive the Qing purges of Taiping supporters and sympathizers.
Meeting Theodore HambergA convert of missionary Theodore Hamberg found Hong Rengan and brought Hong to meet Hamberg in Hong Kong in 1852. Hong Rengan knew a surprising amount about the Bible and Christian teachings, and he left Hamberg with the startling story of the beginning of the Taiping Rebellion.
Hong came back a year later (1853) and received formal Protestant baptism and started to receive instruction in orthodox Protestant doctrines. Hamberg was thinking to send Hong Rengan to the Taiping to straighten out their doctrines, to make them actually Christian.
He gave money for Hong Rengan to go up to Shanghai, to hopefully link up with the Taiping in Nanjing.
Hong Kong sojourn, life with James LeggeHong Rengan didn't get past Shanghai, so after some time there, he went back to Hong Kong. Theodore Hamberg had died, but his connection with that missionary helped him connect with other missionaries.
He spent years with missionary James Legge, even assisting a number of translations of core pieces of Chinese literature into English, assisting with scholarly interpretation.
Being in Hong Kong helped Hong Rengan learn a ton about life outside China. Later he would become a key link between the Taiping and foreign powers, evaluating whether to support the Taiping or the ruling Qing Dynasty.
When James Legge was away on home leave, other missionaries funded a second attempt for Hong Rengan to go back to Nanjing. This time, it would work.
Hong Rengan—A Missed Opportunity?The Taiping weren't quite Christian enough to gain foreign support, and they weren't quite Chinese enough to neatly replace the ruling dynasty. They weren't going so far as to replace the dynastic system, and they didn't get beyond the visions and the teachings of their founder.
Hong Rengan may have been someone who could have pushed the Taiping movement to being a more effective revolutionary force, but as we'll see in future episodes, that didn't quite happen.
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S01E24 Foreigners in China: The Customs Department
Today we're talking about the customs department instituted for China by foreign powers intervening in China. The customs department did much more than collect import-export taxes: foreigners working with the Chinese government sent scientific and sociological studies back to Europe, lighthouses established on the coast aided trade and navigation, and the example of modern bureaucracy showed what China could possibly be.
The Customs DepartmentBritain and other foreign powers active in China contributed to a modern customs department run along European lines. Because it was an external patch, it had to do extra work to support its own activities.
The customs department represented modern bureaucracy. Chinese who worked in it became intermediaries between foreign and Chinese businesses. They became a professional class that would mediate the importation of foreign ideas and technology into China.
Lighthouses and China's BordersThe customs department also established a system of lighthouses on the coast of China. This aided navigation and trade, but it also imparted European notions of borders to Qing management of their own frontiers.
Taiwan was ambiguously Chinese territory. The Qing invested more into clearly establishing their sovereignty over the island to beat out foreign powers trying to take it out of Chinese sovereignty.
Lighthouse keepers also happened to be very useful for collecting weather data to aid navigational planning. Tracking monsoons helped prevent shipping losses.
Upgrade of Qing Government and the Taiping RebellionForeign intervention in China was mostly about advancing business, missionary, and political interests. The Chinese ability to deal with foreign interests on Chinese terms is what will make or break a Chinese revolution.
Although foreign intervention will help the Qing defeat the Taiping Rebellion, it was a loss for the Qing, being dependent on foreign help.
The Taiping Rebellion clarified the issue for other Chinese revolutionaries who would come in the following decades: the Qing Dynasty would have to go for China to fully improve.
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