Afleveringen
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“‘To whom much is given, much is expected.’ … That is the core of our Christian belief.”
“I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad brush.”
(Condoleezza Rice, from this episode)
In this episode, Condoleezza Rice joins Mark Labberton to discuss the state of US foreign and domestic policy in light of Christian moral convictions. Secretary Rice served as the 66th US Secretary of State under President George W. Bush, has been on the faculty of Stanford University since 1981, and is currently the director of the Hoover Institution.
Together they discuss:
The state of US foreign policy and international relations
How to think about American involvement in global politics
The importance of US foreign assistance
American patriotism and Christian devotion
And Condoleezza Rice’s prayers for American leaders right now: discernment, judgment, compassion, and policy that reflects the dignity of all human beings.
About Condoleezza Rice
Condoleezza Rice is the Tad and Dianne Taube Director of the Hoover Institution and the Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow on Public Policy. She is the Denning Professor in Global Business and the Economy at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. In addition, she is a founding partner of Rice, Hadley, Gates & Manuel, LLC, an international strategic consulting firm.
From January 2005 to January 2009, Rice served as the 66th Secretary of State of the United States, the second woman and first black woman to hold the post. Rice also served as President George W. Bush’s Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (National Security Advisor) from January 2001 to January 2005, the first woman to hold the position.
Rice served as Stanford University’s provost from 1993 to 1999, during which time she was the institution’s chief budget and academic officer. As professor of political science, she has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the university’s highest teaching honors.
From February 1989 through March 1991, Rice served on President George H.W. Bush’s National Security Council staff. She served as director, then senior director, of Soviet and East European Affairs, as well as Special Assistant to the President for National Security. In 1986, while an International Affairs Fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, Rice also served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
For more information, visit her profile at the Hoover Institution.
Show Notes
The state of US international relations “ The beginning of any administration is a bit chaotic” “I continue to hope that we will find a way to help Ukraine so that Vladimir Putin doesn't benefit from the aggression that he committed.” “The United States will undoubtedly play a different role. … That is the outcome of what's been eighty years of post World War II American engagement. … And so we need to ask, what are our values? What are our interests? And I think we're going to, we're going to see a good, solid American role in foreign policy.” Is the world order in the process of receiving a shock treatment? “ We really do need to rebuild our defense industrial base.” USAID: “ I'm a great believer that foreign assistance is one of the important tools in our toolkit of foreign policy.” “ I actually am one who believes that the absorption of USAID into the State Department is the right answer.” On US foreign assistance “A lot of what we do is purely humanitarian, purely life saving. We should. Just do that. Some of what we do is also strategic. What countries do we help to develop to be less fragile so that they don't become hubs for terrorism? … And sometimes our assistance is to stabilize places in the world so that we don't face a security problem down the road.” Developing infrastructure “Am I patriotic? Do I love my country? Am I a nationalist? Absolutely. Am I Christian? Yes. And so I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad crust.” “But if we think about what it means to be Christian, it means to care about every human being, because every human being is created in the image of the Lord, and therefore every human being has worth.” “One of the closing comments from President Bush was, ‘To whom much is given, much is expected. … that is the core of our Christian belief.” What is the state of the Christian influence in American politics and life? Emulating the early church in establishing orphanages and hospitals, “and to be a voice on behalf of those who are dispossessed.” Religious Freedom “When I was secretary of state, not because I was Christian, but because I was secretary of state, I would take a list of religious objectors with me to countries like China.” “The evangelical church has been very involved in human trafficking issues. We actually do have a problem of modern slavery.” “The church has a lot of potential to be a really good force in the world.” Condoleeza Rice’s most passionate prayers for the nation and the world right now “My most passionate prayer is that our leaders would have—and I actually pray this prayer— that they would have judgment and discernment, that they would have compassion, that they would lead from a position of knowing how much America has, and that they would understand that our role in the world derives from our universal belief in human freedom and that it is the only way that human beings have the dignity that they should have as having been created by God.” “I think one of the reasons we've had a bit of a backlash against some foreign assistance is that people wonder, ‘Well, are you thinking about Americans in the same way?’”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“ When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)
Why is it so hard to communicate? To accomplish the simple task of delivering and receiving information?
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton suggests that real and successful communication is a miracle, and an infrequent one at that. Our failure to communicate regularly demonstrates just how far we are from adequately listening to one another. Ultimately, if we want to seek the miracle of communication, we need to take the responsibility to “close the loop” and do the work of hearing, listening, and acknowledging receipt.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
Endless communication meetings talking about the failure of our communication News media’s failure to communicate Marital failures to communicate Parent-child failures to communicate Overcommunicating with too much information Undoing miscommunication “Communication is a miracle and not a frequent one.” Why is it so hard to communicate? “ In many ways, the stakes are against us when we’re really trying to communicate.” Ears, eyes, space, time, sounds, lighting How far we are from adequately listening to one another Acknowledging receipt of a message “The world is pushy. Culture is pushy.” Clarity of mind and heart ”When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” The importance of closing the communication loop “If I’m seeking the miracle of communication, then I have to live into the responsibility of closing the loop of communication and not just being a passive recipient of what it is that’s been said.” Failure to close the loop is what allows us to measuring the infrequency of true, successful communication.Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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This is a turbulent time for American democracy. Years, perhaps decades, of social change is manifesting in the form of distrust, violence, chaos, fear, loneliness, and despair.
But Conversing, along with Comment magazine, is about hope, healing, and hospitality.
For this special 200th episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton invites Anne Snyder (Editor-in-Chief, Comment magazine) for a close reading and discussion of the 2025 Comment Manifesto, a hopeful new document offering a vision of Christian Humanism for this era.
Together they discuss:
The meaning and intent behind a new Comment magazine Manifesto for Christian humanism
The Incarnation of Christ for what it means to be human
Hospitality in an era of exclusion
Healthy institutions and the importance of communal agency
Individualism vs communitarianism
Learning to perceive the world in fresh, surprising ways
About the Comment Manifesto
To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/, or scroll below.
To watch a reading of selections from the Comment Manifesto, click here.
About Anne Snyder
Anne Snyder is the Editor-in-Chief of Comment magazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit https://comment.org/ for more information.
For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large.
Anne also oversees our Comment’s partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).
Show Notes
Giving thanks for 200 episodes of Conversing! 2000 years of Christian thought to the public square James K.A. Smith, the former editor of Comment Magazine Seeking a positive moral vision A turbulent moment for democracy MANIFESTO SECTION 1 “We are Christian humanists…” What it means to be human in our age—our infinite dignity, relationship to the earth, and woundedness The significance of Jesus Christ for what it means to be human What the Incarnation of Christ means for our world “So many people we know and love and respect feel ecclesially homeless, obviously politically homeless.” MANIFESTO SECTION 2 “We believe it’s time to build…” Agency Called to a co-creative project Productive and constructive “Contributing the true and good and beautiful in a messy world.” MANIFESTO SECTION 3 “We believe in institutions…” Collective, common, and communal Institutions, as part of the social architecture of our world, can be extraordinarily positive. “I always get asked, ‘Why do you believe in institutions? Why? You don’t need to! They’re gone! They’re dead!’” “Healthy institutions are channels within which you can actually realize your sense of agency in a way that might be more moving than you ever would have imagined just by yourself.” Yuval Levin’s take on community (paraphrased): “All the tumult we're experiencing, we're just having a big fight about what kinds of what community means.” Polarization MAGA as a kind of community “I consider myself a bit of a communitarian.” Christian humanism throughout history always has four projects connected to it: Theology, character formation, political economy, and aesthetic. MANIFESTO SECTION 4 “We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us.” Addressing the fractured social fabric and isolation of this age Encounter and trust Hospitality— ”taking one another's being and doing in the world seriously enough” Enter the room listening MANIFESTO SECTION 5 “We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital.” “This is our most aggressive claim.” Distinguishing Comment from peer publications such as First Things “All cultures are fallen, and we’re part of another kingdom.” Galatians 5 and the Fruit of the Spirit Civilizational Christianity The smallness of “faith, family, flag” “So much of my Christian identity has been rewritten by experiences of Christian faith that are completely outside the, the social reality that is my fundamental location.” ”When Christianity seems to be running the dangerous risk of being captured, captured by a certain kind of ideological political social frame that feels as though it's really making itself primary simply by its Napoleonic capacity for self-crowning, that is a very, very dangerous thing.” MANIFESTO SECTION 6 “We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together.” Perceiving the world differently Down syndrome and the expression of a different kind of knowing or wisdom Full circle with the first principle of the imago Dei Functioning out of either confidence, uncertainty, or anxiety Mark Labberton’s friend Dustin (R.I.P), who had cerebral palsy Fatigue, trying to get our bearings Looking for moral and eschatological coherenceProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
The 6 Primary Sections of the 2025 Comment Manifesto
To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/.
We are Christian humanists, those who believe that Jesus Christ—God become man—is the ultimate measure of what it means to be human. We believe that every human being is created in the image of God, whole persons who are at once fallen yet gloriously endowed, finite and dependent, yet deserving of infinite dignity. We seek to stay true both to the wonder and to the woundedness of life this side of the veil, even as our eschatology floods us with hope: Jesus has walked with us, died, risen, and ascended, and he will come again to make all things new.
We believe it’s a time to build, that the creative imagination and the Christian imagination are mysteriously linked. We want to begin with the Yes in Christ, not our own noes. While there is an important role for criticism baptized in a study of what is true, good, and beautiful, it is a means to an end—the basis for wise repair and imagination, not the justification for destruction or erasure. We are committed to keeping orthodoxy and orthopraxy married, taking seriously our job to translate between them.
We believe in institutions: government, guilds, families, schools, universities, the church. We recognize that in our age of individualism, institutions are often painted as the enemy. We try to change that, seeking to shape the character of today’s most formative institutions while exploring what kind of reimagined social architecture might compel the next generation’s trust.
We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us. Loving enemies is bedrock for Comment, hospitality core. We are champions of the difficult room. We believe in the deeper truths that can be discovered when different life experiences and distinct sources of wisdom are gathered around one table. We intentionally publish arguments with which we disagree, including those who don’t hail Christ as Lord, not for the sake of pluralism without conviction, but because Christians have always better understood the contours and depths of their faith when crystallized through exchanges with strangers turned friends.
We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital. While the audience we serve is navigating a North American context, we serve this audience from an understanding that Christianity is an intercultural, polyglot religion. At a time of rising religious ethno-nationalism, we insist that no culture can claim to represent the true form of Christianity, and we actively seek for our authors and partners to reflect the global reality of the church.
We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together.
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Our theory of change takes its cues from the garden, less the machine. We are personalists, not ideologues. We follow the logic of Jesus’s mustard seed, of yeast transforming a whole pile of dough, of the principle of contagiousness and change happening over generations. We believe in the value of slow thought. We are skeptical of the language of scale in growing spiritual goods. While we wish to be savvy in unmasking the either/or reactivity of our age and will always call out dehumanizing trendlines, we are fundamentally animated by the creative impulse, by a philosophy of natality expressed through hospitality. This feels especially important in this time between eras when no one knows what’s next, and we need one another to recalibrate, to reflect, and to shape a hopeful future.
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”I grew up thinking that Christianity was basically cruel and hypocritical.”
“The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.”
“That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.”
—Jonathan Rauch, from the episode
We’re at a crossroads, where Christianity and secularism in America are both operating at cross-purposes, and both need a critical reassessment of their role in democratic public life.
In his new book, Jonathan Rauch “reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity.” He “addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances.”
Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode), Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch.
He is also a celebrated essayist, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry's equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize.
In this episode Mark Labberton and Jonathan Rauch discuss:
Republican virtue What Jesus and James Madison have in common The political idolatry of secularism The differences between the thin church, sharp church, and thick church The political orientation of the church in exile Tyrannical fear The Morman church’s example of civic theology “of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” The promise of power in exchange for loyaltyAbout Jonathan Rauch
Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode), Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch.
Show Notes
Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth Reasonable, civic mindedness “Graciousness toward a faith you don’t share.” “Of course I knew I was Jewish. I also knew that the idea of God seemed silly to me. I just never, never could believe it.” The Rev. Dr. Mark McIntosh 2003 Atlantic article: “The dumbest thing I ever wrote” celebrating secularism in America (”Let It Be,” The Atlantic, May 2003) “ It turned out that when Christianity started to fail, people started looking for substitutes, because they were looking for a source of identity and values and transcendent meaning.” Political idolatry of secularism “A major reason the country is becoming ungovernable is because of Christianity’s crisis. We can no longer separate the two, and that’s why I, a very secular person, am writing a book about Christianity.” “Moving away from the teachings of Jesus…” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” Mark’s description of his father: “ My dad used to save certain neck veins for the discussion of religion because he felt like it was something that should be avoided, at that time, at all costs, particularly its most zealous kind. And his primary critique was that what religious people do is that they take great things and make them small. … What shocked me when I became a Christian was this discovery that Jesus and my dad had this same theme in common, that Jesus often objected to the small making of various religious authorities of his day.” “God’s capacious grace, creativity, purpose, and love” Will the church live in its identity as followers of Jesus? “Christianity is a load-bearing wall in our liberal democracy.” “Republican virtues” (not the party): lawful, truthful, civic education, tolerant, pluralistic Christianity’s role in upholding the unprecedented religious freedom “When Christians begin demanding things that are inconsistent with those core values, that makes everything else in the country harder.” “The thin church is a church that blends into the surrounding culture and it becomes diluted.” “The sharp church is … where the church takes on the political colorations of the surrounding environment, aligns itself with a political party.” Divisive and polarizing “The third is the thick church. And there, the challenge is that you want a church to be counter cultural. You want it to have a strong sense of its own values. Otherwise, it's just not doing the work. So it needs to ask a lot of its followers. It needs to give a lot back in exchange. That's what sociologists mean by, by thick communities and groups. At the same time, it needs to be reasonably well aligned with our constitution and our liberal democratic values.” Church of fear Fear of demographic decline Cultural fear and losing the country to the woke Left Fear of emasculation Plain old political fear: “Our side needs to win.” Fear as a major theme of the Bible Fear of God as “the beginning of wisdom” “A communion of unlike people. … A workshop in which the character of God … is meant to be learned.” Immaturity and lack of wisdom in the church “The chief defense of the faith in the world that Jesus died and rose is that unlike people find communion with one another in a union that only Jesus Christ's death and resurrection could actually accomplish.” “Tyrannical fear”—a drive for dominance “Fear is part of the human condition. Yet what's so countercultural about Christianity, is its teaching that you can't be governed by that fear. You can't let it run your life and go around in a state of panic. And that Jesus Christ himself had lots to be fearful of, as we know from the end that he came to, and yet comported himself in this calm and dignified way, did not let fear triumph over him. That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” “Fear casts out love.” Trump administration[’s] … demonstration of a capacity to have literally no compassion, no empathy.” The paradigm of Exodus versus the paradigm of exile Isaiah 58: “ Now as strangers in a strange land in Babylon, I'm going to ask you: Who are you now? Who do you trust now? Who are you going to put the full weight of your life on now?” “Exilic Church” “ Christianity is not about owning the country or winning in politics.” “It can’t be a coincidence that at a moment when (at least) white Protestantism in the United States is obsessed with political influence and has mortgaged itself to the least Christlike figure possibly in American political history (in any case, right up there) that its numbers are shrinking catastrophically.” “The irony of the cross always is this self emptying power.” [Trump] is saying, “I will give you power, and in exchange, you will give me unquestioning loyalty.” Comparing Trump’s transaction (at Dordt University in Iowa) “If you vote for me, you will have power” with the temptation of Christ in the desert: “All of this will be yours if you bow down to me.” Transactional relationship with power The Mormon church’s “ civic theology … of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” Jesus: “Don’t be afraid, imitate Jesus, and forgive each other.” Madisonian liberalism: “Don’t panic if you lose an election, protect minorities and the dignity of every individual, and don’t seek retribution if you win, share the country.” “When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western civilization, he said, ‘It would be a good idea.’” Black church and MLK Jr.—”emphasis on Reverend” “You accept the stripes and the crown of thorns. You turn the other cheek.” Profoundly counterintuitive countercultural exampleProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)
“What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode)
“ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode)
The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump’s second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional?
In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump’s first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers.
Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He’s founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.
Together they discuss:
The authority of the Constitution over the presidency The importance of character in the office of the president The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices Why we should worry, but not panicAbout Yuval Levin
Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.
At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish.
Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President’s Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels.
In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024).
He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago.
Show Notes
A time of “presidential gigantism” “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” Pluralism and vigorous debate Swamping a weak, divided Congress Separation of Powers Legislature vs Executive Branch “ Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative.” “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” Performative nature of political roles “Random grab-bag of power plays.” Fear of a “lawless president” “The beginning of a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal.” “ It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out.” Elon Musk as Pseudo-President “ The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government.” “ When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes.” Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check? Overturning Chevron deference “Character is destiny.” “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” “ The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways.” ”In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go.” “ My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office.” Presidential overreach Loyalty tests and punishment “ What the president really does is make hard decisions.” Having room for opposition “Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on.” Alarm Bells First: “The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order.” Second: “Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency.” Third: “It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes.” Character and mindset Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person. Dangers on the horizon Checks and balances Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term? “On the whole our institutions have proven fairly strong.” “It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …” Yuval Levin’s American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again What is the voice of citizenship right now? Appropriations “Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment.” “I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure.” “Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress.” “President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican.” A variety of voices “In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system.” “The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?” “God Bless America.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the reality and meaning of the fact that “I am not you.”
He considers the importance of differentiation between speaker and listener, and the best posture of the listener not only to gain information, but to contribute back to the speaker and the conversation itself, opening up a deeper and more imaginative exchange.
Learning to appreciate and pursue knowledge of “differentiated others,” listening in this context becomes an antidote to presumption. The less presumptuous we are about others, the more knowledge and perspective we’re likely to gain.
Listening is also more than immediate reflection. Better than restatement would be to probe the speaker’s interest and awaken their imagination, thereby creating new possibilities for everyone involved.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate, inspire, and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection—a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
The gift of listening is not just similarities, but differentiation The adventure of knowing another person Mature listening Expanding the heart and mind through true differentiation Letting differentiation be a gift, and not a threat—leading to compassion, mercy, justice, and enlivened exchange “A chance to be more than our mere selves.” We’re each coming from different bodies, contexts, backgrounds, etc. Understanding the volley or back-and-forth “Sometimes listening is just an excuse for being quiet while we develop our own lines that we’re preparing to say to the other person. That is not listening. That’s something else. That’s about plotting and planning, or it’s about fear, or it’s about anxiety …” Earnest, genuine listening means becoming a genuine learner, without presumptions. “The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” What happens when you are wrongly presumptuous about other people Listening is an unmasking of presumption. Exposing our presumptions Reflecting the words of the other is not enough; genuine listening unearths and awakens the imagination of the other Reaching genuine depth of conversational volley “These things are critical in leadership, because communication is a miracle—and not a frequent one.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” (Megan Katerjian, from the episode)
What is it like to lose your house in a fire?
The Eaton Fire in Los Angeles County started on January 7, 2025, and within twenty-four hours had burned over fourteen thousand acres of Altadena, California, and surrounding areas. Thousands of people have lost their homes (some without any guarantee of home insurance or FEMA aid), thousands of schools have closed, and life in this beautiful city has been completely transformed.
Today’s guest, Megan Katerjian, went from helping local homeless families find housing to experiencing homelessness herself, when her family’s northwest Altadena home burned down in the Eaton Fire. She is CEO of Door of Hope and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry.
In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Megan to discuss her experience and perspective. Megan courageously and vulnerably opens up about the pain of losing a meaningful space of care and comfort, and shares about the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual realities of what this traumatic experience has been like.
Together they discuss:
Megan’s story of losing her house in the Eaton Fire The insights Megan gained about homelessness through experiencing her own version of it Megan’s work and ministry as CEO of Door of Hope, a Christian non-profit, based in Pasadena, serving Los Angeles County. From their website: “One of the only homeless providers that can shelter any kind of family together in their own private unit, including single moms, single dads, and two-parent families together with their children.” The meaning of a social safety network The effect of trauma on decision-making What approach to self-care and restoration she is pursuing The social and economic impact of homelessness The difference between financial and relational poverty And how you can help those affected by the Eaton FireIf you are unhoused for any reason, including having lost your home in the Los Angeles fires, visit DoorofHope.us for reliable information and practical resources. For additional information, visit Fuller Seminary’s Wind and Fire Resources page.
Additional links:
Summary of Eaton Fire
City of Pasadena Eaton Fire Updates
About Megan Katerjian
Rev. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry, working for non-profits in Los Angeles, Chicago, and South Africa, as well as churches in California.
Megan holds two master’s degrees from Fuller Seminary, a bachelor’s degree from Cornell University, and a certificate in non-profit management.
Megan lost her Altadena home in the Eaton Fires in east Los Angeles County in January 2025.
Show Notes
Learn more about Door of Hope: Empowering families facing homelessness to transform their lives Megan Katerjian shares about what the past month has been like after losing her house in the Altadena fires Temporary housing to transitional housing “I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” Integrating Jesus and justice How Door of Hope works with Pasadena homeless The power-control cycle single mothers face A mother’s story of going from brokenness and despair to hope and empowerment Altadena’s fires Megan Katerjian tells her story of finding and then losing her home in northwest Altadena “It’s about the meaning of the home rather than the physical space.” Trauma-informed design: colors and arrangements bring the feelings of safety and comfort “I don’t think I’ve ever sobbed that hard in my life.” Losing a life-giving environment of comfort and peace How to pray for the devastation of the fires in Southern California Self-care “I can’t watch the news right now. … The fire coverage is really triggering.” Taking time off to grieve and pick up the pieces Being with people who went through the same experience Leaving town for respite in Goleta, California “I talked to God in very distracted conversations.” “The sun rises and sets every day, and God is present every day. And just that steadiness and that calm and that reminder was really, really important for me.” Expanding empathy and understanding of homelessness The irony of learning about homeless The impact of trauma-brain on the ability to make important decisions; slower processing “What the world might interpret as laziness or lack of motivation could just be the impact of trauma.” The “Social Service Shuffle”: good leads, bad leads, time wasted, etc. FEMA and “a sea of cots” “If I had nothing in my bank account and didn’t have a friend who had set up a GoFundMe page, I would be panicking right now.” “Homelessness is not just about financial poverty, it’s about relational poverty.” The benefits of a thick social safety network Walking through Asheville, North Carolina, after the hurricane flood Impact on the housing market for renting and buying homes Will any landlords be willing to take a Section 8 voucher? Multi-generation black homeowner families who have lived in Altadena for many years after redlining moved them out of Pasadena “The economics look a little different.” Three families in the same home—”what does their social safety network look like?” Door of Hope pivoting to create the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program Working with FEMA and home insurance Working with the church to respond to the crisis and provide a family of care, support, and love Self-care as restorative rather than selfish A call to action: Please act and help those impacted by the fires in Southern CaliforniaProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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A special episode for the inauguration of Donald Trump’s second term, as the forty-seventh president of the United States. Whether you’re filled with hope and joy, or anxiety and fearfulness, how can we pursue a common citizenship that is grounded in faith and moral sensitivity, focused on justice and love, and rightfully patriotic?
Today, Mark welcomes friends Pete Wehner (columnist, The Atlantic, and Fellow, Trinity Forum), Anne Snyder (editor-in-chief, Comment magazine), and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary).
Together they discuss:
The inauguration of Donald Trump for his second term in office;
The meaning of patriotism in an unfolding, rambunctious democratic experiment;
Repentance, repair, and understanding;
How to keep a moral-ethical grounding in political life;
Balancing open curiosity and genuine concern;
What rejuvenates and renews us during anxious political times (exploring beauty in nature and art);
Learning disagreement in a post-civility era;
Peacemaking instead of polarization;
Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal;
And how to pray for Donald Trump as he enters his next term in office.
About Peter Wehner
Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships.
Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives.
Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.
About Anne Snyder
Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, **which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit comment.org for more information.
For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large.
Anne also oversees Comment’s partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).
About David Goatley
David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995).
In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment.
Show Notes
What each guest values and honours about America, expressing commitment and affection as citizens “Any presidential inauguration is weight bearing.” Pete Wehner: a first-generation American From ideals to reality about the history of America “ I’m the kind of patriot who is committed to the country being the best that it can be.” “Rambunctious unfolding-still … democratic experiment.” The scene for Inauguration Day 2021 Strength and vitality of American life What are your commitments and hopes for the next four years? “Some of my siblings for whom their angst is new, and I’m happy to say, welcome to my world.” The posture of believers and people of good will to “keep a moral ethical grounding” “Justice, especially for the dispossessed, the aliens, the powerless” Pulled in different directions Eugene Peterson formulation: “There’s the Jesus truth, and the Jesus way.” Called to be different things at different moments Name reality as best we can “Is it possible to be both prophetic and the force of unity at the same time?” Will there be a World War III in the next decade? Creative ways to develop resilience “A great chastening” “I feel both curious and really concerned.” When patience runs out “ I'm socially and humanly curious—and strangely a little hopeful for new frames of how we are with one another—but I am steeling myself for turbulence and violence at a time when it feels like we can't afford those things.” The shifting global stage The need for deep compassion and energy that doesn’t stop listening or caring What rejuvenates and renews you in this moment? Being outside, natural beauty, artistic beauty, and staying actively in community with people who will stay reflective. Turning off the news National Gallery of Art’s Impressionist exhibit (link) “For most of us, our day-to-day lives, even in the political realm, are not really driven primarily by what's happening with the presidency.” Jon Batiste “Healthy, substantive arguments that are not ad hominem” Are we living in the post-civility era? Peacemaking instead of polarization Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal “Something has gone deeply wrong in the white evangelical world” “ I'm completely fine with deconstruction as long as there’s reconstruction.” “There’s a great line that the ancient Greeks used, Bobby Kennedy used that in a speech of his in the late ‘60s, where he said that the task was to tame the savageness of man and to make gentle the life of this world.” Prayers for Donald Trump That the Spirit of God would overshadow Donald Trump and political leaders That “Not our will but Thy will be done.” For moral sensitivity ”I'll just be candid here. I have a sense that he's a, he is a person with a lot of brokenness in his life.” “We’re part of a story, and there’s an author. … But those chapters aren’t the whole story.” A notorious chapter in American historyProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“The Good News is still good news.”
“I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. … The good news of Jesus Christ doesn’t win and doesn’t lose based on a political party winning or losing.”
(Walter Kim, from this episode)
How does evangelicalism relate to the dominant political powers of our world?
In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes Walter Kim to Conversing. As the president of the National Association of Evangelicals and host of the Difficult Conversations podcast, Walter holds on to deep Christian orthodoxy alongside the most vigorous and necessary intellectual, personal, ethical, and theological reflections, offering a vision of leadership and spiritual-moral imagination to bolster the future of evangelicalism.
Together they discuss:
Christianity, pluralism, and polarization
The fraught meaning of “evangelicalism” in America and what it means to be a “good news person” in this political moment
The human impulse to wield power and the temptation of evangelicals to join with empire
The Christian underpinnings of the American nation’s founding and the necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism
How evangelicals are retelling and recasting the story of the gospel in today’s political climate
About Walter Kim
Walter Kim serves as the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a role he’s held since January of 2020. Previously, he was the pastor of Boston's historic Park Street Church, and has served other churches in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Charlottesville, Virginia, and as a campus chaplain at Yale University. He received a BA from Northwestern University, an MDiv from Regent College, and a PhD from Harvard University in Near Eastern languages and civilizations. He hosts the Difficult Conversations podcast.
Show Notes
Long-term faithfulness to the gospel in the maelstrom of challenges and difficulties ”My experience has been one of extremes. … There is the lived reality of polarization, at which I find often myself right in the centre.” ”Sober self-assessment … one should always, as a Christian, be self-suspicious: Am I compromising? … Am I responding in faith or out of fear?” “Purveyor of the good news in action.” “Our labour in Christ is not in vain … ultimately Christ remains Lord and Savior of all.” The word “evangelical” and the state of US evangelicalism What does it mean to be a “good news person”? World Evangelical Alliance General Assembly Laussane and a gathering of five thousand evangelicals from around the world “It’s not a branding issue. It’s a substance issue.” “Global church with a polycentric distribution of leadership and resources” “Whatever our maelstrom and vortex may be in America, it pales in comparison to what brothers and sisters are experiencing throughout the world.” “I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. … The good news of Jesus Christ doesn’t win and doesn’t lose based on a political party winning or losing.” Religious community vs “the other” How does the church relate to dominant powers? Image of God is not just an abstract idea “The democratization of the image of God to all people—not just to the rulers—was a profoundly prophetic statement.” Tower of Babel: A story not just about hubris, but about hoarding power and the ways political imperialism can use religion for its own purposes. “This is not a uniquely American problem. … This is a problem of humanity.” Evangelicals who have given themselves to empire Marring God’s image and remaking God in our own image Pluralism and Christianity The capacity for self-reflection The Christian underpinnings of the American nation’s founding, and the rise of Christian nationalism “What’s different now is the pluralism.” The necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism Ingredient 1: The belief that America was founded as a Christian nation Ingredient 2: A sense or feeling of loss Ingredient 3: The answer to regaining what you lost is political Descriptive versus prescriptive: Was America founded as a Christian nation? Hope in the loving and just reign of God No national church: “living under their own vine and fig tree.” The reason we don’t privilege Christianity in the Constitution Lilly Endowment project “The Good News is still good news.” “Retelling and recasting the story … as a message of hope.” “ This initiative is an opportunity for us to tell the beautiful story of Jesus, while not neglecting the ways that story has been marred.” Luke 4: Jesus’s first public speech. “ The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the oppressed. And to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“An attentive, earnest ear.”
“We begin as listeners, that we begin as learners, that we begin as, as genuine, interested, empathetic people who are called to know and see and hear one another.”
“Entering the room listening gave me an opportunity to realize that I could just behold someone. Behold them visually, behold them audially, to sit in the wonder, the awe, the mystery, the difference of their life from mine and just absorb it in a way that was such a delight. It was also humbling. It also reminded me frequently of how much I had yet to learn, how much I really often didn't understand. … It stretched my heart, it stretched my mind, it gave me an anticipation of growing into greater knowledge of people who were like (and also very unlike) me. And that felt like an invitation to adventure.”
(Mark Labberton, from this episode)
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton offers a principle he learned from his parents: enter the room listening. He reflects on the purpose and usefulness of listening as a starting point; the character of Christian listening and what it means to be a “listening disciple” rather than a “speaking disciple”; what listening does for the speaker; some of the barriers to listening in our current cultural moment; and the observational, cognitive, and emotional benefits of this advice.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
How Mark’s parents taught him from an early age to “enter the room listening.” Start by paying attention to others. The gift of listening and hospitality What listening does for the speaker “It gave the speaker permission to go on.” “We’re in a crisis of conversation in our culture.” “An attentive, earnest ear.” The purpose and usefulness of listening as a starting point The character of Christian listening and what it means to be a “listening disciple” rather than a “speaking disciple” “ When I became a Christian, I was stunned by the fact that Jesus had so much to say and that I had so little clue about what it was that He was describing.” “ I was called to be a listening disciple, not a speaking disciple.” “We begin as listeners, that we begin as learners, that we begin as, as genuine, interested, empathetic people who are called to know and see and hear one another.” “What I'm bringing into the room only occasionally should be the thing of first importance. Instead, I think what I realized was that the thing of first importance was what was already happening in the room and that I was getting to join and find a place in it.” Some of the barriers to listening in our current cultural moment The observational, cognitive, and emotional benefits of entering the room listening Emotional attunement and “reading the room” Enhanced experience of the speaker and their words “And I was just aware that I was at a feast. And that I would want to share in all that the room had to offer.” “I learned a lot about my parents by watching how my parents would listen to their guests and how they would treat their guests.” “Entering the room listening gave me an opportunity to realize that I could just behold someone. Behold them visually, behold them audially, to sit in the wonder, the awe, the mystery, the difference of their life from mine and just absorb it in a way that was such a delight. It was also humbling. It also reminded me frequently of how much I had yet to learn, how much I really often didn't understand. … It stretched my heart, it stretched my mind, it gave me an anticipation of growing into greater knowledge of people who were like (and also very unlike) me. And that felt like an invitation to adventure.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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”And then finally, word comes over the telegraph that the Emancipation Proclamation is in effect. Jubilation!“
(Jemar Tisby, from the episode)
The African-American Christian tradition often celebrates an all-night Watch Night service on New Year’s Eve. But where does this beautiful liturgical practice come from? It dates all the way back to December 31, 1862, on the eve of the Emancipation Proclamation going into effect the following day.
In this episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to reflect on the history of the New Year's Eve Watch Night service.
Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky.
Recent Books by Jemar Tisby
The Spirit of Justice *Available now
I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025
*Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children’s book releasing January 7, 2025
About Jemar Tisby
Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of the new book The Spirit of Justice, the New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby.
Show Notes
The Color of Compromise (available here)—the larger narrative of (Christian) America’s racist history Watch Night Services—spending all night at church on New Year’s Eve Black Christian tradition dating back to Emancipation Proclamation on December 31, 1862 ”The time between when Lincoln announced the proclamation, and when it went into effect on January 1st, 1863, was a time of tense anticipation and uncertainty.” “ What people were concerned about was, would the Confederates come back and make a deal with Lincoln?” “What I like to encourage people to do is put yourself back in that moment as best you can. You have been part of a group of people that have been enslaved since your feet first hit the shores of North America, that generations of your family members, friends, church members have been enslaved, have been enslaved, prayed for freedom, have tried to escape to freedom, have been punished for trying to escape or organize for freedom. And finally, in this massive conflagration called the Civil War, you get the president of the United States saying that you will be free at this certain time. And all of those hopes, all of those prayers, all of those dreams, all of those longings are concentrated in the moments before midnight.” ”And then finally, word comes over the telegraph that the Emancipation Proclamation is in effect. Jubilation!“ “It was in the context of a Christian religion. And so they were understanding this in the context of the Exodus and the Hebrews being freed from Pharaoh through God's intervention. And they're being freed from the pharaohs of the plantation to the promised land of freedom. And they sang spiritual songs and hymns. And ever since then, there's been a tradition of Black Christians gathering on New Year's Eve to have Watch Night service, to celebrate freedom, to anticipate the coming year and to ask for God's blessing.” “ May the joy of remembering the power of the Emancipation Proclamation help motivate us as we think about our work and our life in this coming year.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“Each Advent, I do something unusual; I reread King Lear. Revisiting Shakespeare’s dark exploration of the dissolution of family, friendship, personality, and nation has become part of my annual rhythm. That might seem odd, particularly during this most difficult of years: With short winter days, and so much national, international, and personal pain all around us, who needs more darkness? As a Christian, I do.”
(Mark Labberton, from this episode)
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton shares about his annual ritual of re-reading William Shakespeare’s King Lear, a practice to see darkness as well as see light. Mark reads from his December 23, 2020 essay in The Atlantic, and comments on King Lear’s dark exploration of the dissolution of family and friendship, personality, and nation.
Here Mark reflects on Advent as a season of waiting in the dark, before the light of Incarnation is known and beheld; the vulnerability and struggle of the human condition we all share—and King Lear’s ability to reveal it; the value of staring directly into the darkness; and importance of finding a way to look into the darkness without being overwhelmed by it.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
“Why I Read King Lear Each Advent,” by Mark Labberton, The Atlantic, December 23, 2020 “Each Advent, I do something unusual; I reread King Lear. Revisiting Shakespeare’s dark exploration of the dissolution of family, friendship, personality, and nation has become part of my annual rhythm. That might seem odd, particularly during this most difficult of years: With short winter days, and so much national, international, and personal pain all around us, who needs more darkness? As a Christian, I do.” “ Paying attention provokes and distills our humanity. But our distractibility is relentless, especially today, and it may be exceeded only by our capacity for denial.” The vulnerable pulse and impulse of being human “ My soul trembles as King Lear names and exposes human greediness for love, combustibly combined with the treacherousness of our own self interest. It all hits rather too closely to home, speaking not just to Shakespeare's time but to ours as well, speaking not just to Lear's struggles but to our own.” The shocking immediacy of King Lear, still felt 400 years later Hearkening back to the darkness of the COVID-19 pandemic “Resilient, sacrificing beauties of being human” Collective groaning, lament, and grief Seeing our troubles acutely, undistracted by hope ”The waiting and the darkness begin to give way to hope. And then Christmas is here.” “ We need to find a way to look into the darkness without being overwhelmed by it. To be able to stare in safety. Which brings me back to Lear. Being absorbed in the darkness of that story has taught me to breathe in the presence of darkness in our story. In other words, Lear helps me see, feel, and measure life differently.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this. … The hope is to survive. … It’s really hard to think beyond that.”
“We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide.”
—Rev. Dr. Munther Issac, from the episode
In the long history of conflict in the Middle East, both Jews and Palestinians have felt and continue to feel the existential threat of genocide. There remains so much to be spoken and heard about the experience of each side of this conflict.
Today we’re exploring a Palestinian perspective.
Ministering in present-day Bethlehem, pastor, theologian, author, and advocate Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, now a year following Isaac’s bracing and sobering Christmas sermon, which was graphically represented in a sculptural manger scene of “Christ in the Rubble”—a crèche depicting the newborn Jesus amid the debris of Palestinian concrete, wood, and rebar.
Together they discuss the experience, emotions, and response of Palestinians after fourteen months of war; the Christian responsibility to speak against injustice of all kinds as an act of faith; the contours of loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies in the Sermon on the Mount; what theology can bring comfort in the midst of suffering; just war theory versus the justice of God; the hope for survival; and the Advent hope that emerges from darkness.
A Message from Mark Labberton
Since October 7 of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. And the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, and divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated. And yet, as a friend said to me once about apartheid (I’m paraphrasing): It’s not just that it’s complicated (which it is), it’s actually also very simple: that we refuse to live as Christian people.
By that, he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, Are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil? The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates, and certainly since the of the nation-state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time.
Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint.
Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading. Pleading for an end to the war, pleading for the end to violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also, and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled approximately 70 percent of all Palestinian homes in Gaza.
This kind of devastation, the loss of forty-five thousand lives and more in Palestine, has riveted the world’s attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world, trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbours, as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies.
The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of Something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble. Seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war.
In the meantime, we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ ministering with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile, and certainly Palestinian Christians.
About Munther Isaac
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology.
He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission, and reconciliation.
His latest book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (get your copy via Amazon or Eerdmans), will appear in March 2025.
He is also the author of The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian Theology (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently he has published a book on women’s ordination in the church, also in Arabic. He is involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member.
Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a master in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.
Munther is married to Rudaina, an architect, and together they have two boys: Karam and Zaid.
Follow him on X @muntherisaac.
Show Notes
The complexity of conflict in Palestine, Israel, and the Middle East “It’s very simple: We refuse to live as Christian people.” Get your copy of Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza via Amazon or Eerdmans “Christ in the Rubble”—the one-year anniversary Munther Isaac’s Christmas sermon, “Christ Under the Rubble” Video A Letter from all churches in Bethlehem: “No war” “ I can't believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that’s taking place in front of the whole world to see.” Fourteen months of non-stop bombing “We’re still feeling the anger.” ”We’re still feeling the pain. We’re still feeling the anger. And in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come, given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human.” “We couldn’t go to church as normal.” “ It’s our calling to continue as people of faith. To call for a change, and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course, I feel that my message should be first to the church, because I’m a Christian minister. I don’t like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel that the church could have done more.” Freedom to speak out: “You can’t say these things in public.” Anti-Semitism and hatred toward Jews “ This kind of hatred and prejudice toward the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me, it stems from the idea of ‘we’re superior, we’re better, we’re entitled,’ and blaming someone else. It comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame.” “ At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we’re paying the price for what happened on someone else’s land? We’re paying the price.” Loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies Jesus’s politically charged environment Violence, just wWar theory, and “the justice of God” Using children as human shields for militants “ We cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it's not easy at all. It was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbour summarizes everything. It wasn’t like I came up with this novel thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian.” “What theology would bring comfort?” Matthew 25, judgment, and ministering to Jesus through “the least of these” “ ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.’ So he’s clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry.” Hopes for peace “I’m going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this.” “They estimate that 70 percent of the homes of two million people are destroyed.” Violence and destruction connected to a biblical argument about the legitimacy of Palestinian genocide The vulnerability of Israel and the vulnerability of Palestine “ And it’s important to say these things. Because if we don’t say them, then we … leave the task of imagination to those who are radical—to the extremists and exclusivists.” Munther Isaac’s thoughts on the Zionist movement Advent reflections on the darkness at the centre, from which hope and life might emergeProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting historian John Meacham)
“When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.” (Daniel Gidick on Thomas Jefferson)
“This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting Franklin D. Roosevelt)
Teaching high school history in our current social and political moment represents a formative transmission of the past to the present. Not to mention that a high school level US history course is often one of the final steps toward citizenship and public participation for young adults entering American society.
In this episode, Mark welcomes high school history teacher Daniel Gidick for a discussion of how the teaching of history and the education of young people influence human society.
Together they discuss the connection between history and contemporary society; the stories of conflict and human interest; the joy and challenge of secondary education; the politicalization of high school history; how students adopt a connection to the past; the importance of fact-based history teaching; how history affects American democratic citizenship; and the personal connection Daniel has with the study of United States history.
About Daniel Giddick
Daniel Gidick teaches US history and government at Albemarle High School in Charlottesville, Virginia.
Show Notes
US history and the constant turmoil of the social landscape History as “stories of human conflict and human interest” Inspirational historical figures The depth and impact of high school teachers on young people “Battlefield breakfast” “The last teacher they’ll have before they take on the greatest title that you can have (other than parent), which is citizen.” “A parodied speech of Eisenhower’s D-Day speech” to motivate test takers Historical documents The politicization of high school history Jon Meacham: “We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” American Civil War State versus national power “When in doubt, the answer of the division of history is: slavery.” The New Deal: “The pivot point of the twentieth century.” Immigration How do students feel about America? “Lincoln has to be dead by Christmas.” “When does the revolution end? … It doesn’t.” A connection to the past, finding relevance What is your theory of history? Fact-based historical teaching How history affects American democratic citizenship An inflection point in American history “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” (FDR) “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (FDR) “One of the points of reflecting on the past is to prepare us for action in the present.” (Jon Meacham)Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” (Chaplain Earl Smith)
Chaplain Earl Smith believes that ministry to the incarcerated is about so much more than rehabilitation. It’s about regeneration. Using the power of his own story of transformation from gang member to pastor, Chaplain Smith has maintained a faithful presence and witness for many decades of pastoral service to the incarcerated at San Quentin Rehabilitation Center, and now to professional athletes (including the Golden State Warriors, San Francisco 49ers, and the San Francisco Giants).
Today on the show Mark Labberton and Chaplain Earl Smith discuss the moral and spiritual factors of prison chaplaincy and ministry for those on death row; the meaning of freedom and education; how he ministered to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood; the difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people’s lives; and the transformative power of the gospel to go beyond rehabilitation to regeneration.
About Earl Smith
Born and reared in Stockton, California, the cycle of events in Earl’s life came to a head in 1975 when he was shot 6 times while living the life of a minor gangster. Although expected to die, Earl’s father’s faith, prayers, and love seemed to bring him through. The words of his father have motivated him, since that event, “you are a rebel, but you are God’s rebel, and God is going to use you to His glory.”
In 1983, at the age of 27, Earl became the youngest person ever hired as a Protestant Chaplain by the California Department of Corrections.
He is author of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison.
Chaplain Smith currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer for Franklin Home, a Transition Living/Reentry Home for men and is the Team Pastor for the San Francisco 49ers’ and the Golden State Warriors. From 1998 to 2006 Chaplain Smith was the Chapel Leader for the San Francisco Giants. Chaplain Smith has ministered to teams playing in NFL Super Bowls, MLB World Series and NBA Championships. In 2000, Chaplain Smith was recognized as the National Correctional Chaplain of the Year.
Chaplain Smith has appeared on numerous broadcasts, including HBO, CNN, The 700 Club, Trinity Broadcasting Network and The History Channel. Earl has been featured in Christianity Today, Ebony, Guidepost, Ministry Today, Newsweek, People’s Weekly, The African Americans and Time.
Show Notes
Get your copy of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison How Mark and Chaplain Smith met The value of education “I had to stop my education because of the execution schedule at San Quentin.” How Earl Smith got into prison chaplaincy “In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” What San Quentin prison is like “We used to call San Quentin the Bastille by the Bay. The thing that really stood out for me was the fact that for 13 of the first 16 months I was there, the prison was locked down. The day I interviewed, two people were killed, so they stopped my interview twice. So I understood where I was. I understood the context of confinement. What I also went in there understanding was. It was not about rehabilitation. It was about regeneration.” “I believe that that's part of chaplaincy is not to allow the confines of the wall to dictate who you are.” A sense of liberty Fear and reality Earl Smith’s ministry to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood How faith shaped a capacity to be free from fear for the sake of love Mass incarceration and the new Jim Crow The drug epidemic and its impact on mass incarceration “How can you help us prepare these guys to come home?” “Whether you're on condemned role, if you have a life without the possibility of parole, or life sentence, or whatever it is, my job is still to share the same gospel message.” “Present your body as a living sacrifice.” Pastoral care in the prison system Calling prisoners by their first names instead of their numbers “When you've done it onto the least of these, you've done it to me, so there's a value in your presence.” Chaplaincy to professional athletes “The states that have the largest prison systems are also the states that send the most professional athletes in the pro sports.” Golden State Warriors and San Francisco 49ers The difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people’s lives “Every man wants someone to acknowledge there's something positive in what you're doing.” “They May Know Your Number, But God Knows Your Name” (Clifton Jansky, country western singer) God’s way of paying attention to us; “how vested God is in our pursuit of being fully human” (reference to Marilynne Robinson) Performance and identity (reference to Ben Houltberg) Jerry Rice, #80 and “who wore the number before you?” Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Athletes in Action “God is a relational God. … Sports is relational.” When did chaplaincy in sports become a thing? Pat Ritchie’s chaplaincy Understanding the value and difference chaplaincy makes Documentary and Film Adaptation: Death Row Chaplain “A story not of rehabilitation but regeneration” “That's really what the story is about. Some of my yesterday, some of my today. And what I believe to be my tomorrow.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.”
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck.
Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day.
Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community.
If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you’re going through, and get the support you need.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton’s master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary “… not just overwhelmed, but really undone” “ … the possibility of ending my life …” Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope “Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” “For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day.” If you’re feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. “Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode)
There’s a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it’s perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”?
In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for a conversation about elite meritocracy in higher education.
Together they discuss the meaning of merit, ability, success, and their roles in a good human life; hereditary aristocracy and the populist backlash; power and overemphasis on intelligence; the importance of curiosity for growing and becoming a better person; the value of cognitive ability over character and other skills; the centrality of desire in human life; moral formation and the gospel according to Ted Lasso; ambition versus aspiration; and the impact of meritocracy on the political life and policy.
About David Brooks
David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.
Show Notes
“How the Ivy League Broke America” (via The Atlantic) “The meritocracy isn’t working. We need something new.” Money and the elite meritocracy “Every nation has a social ideal. And for the first half of the twentieth century, and the last half of the nineteenth century, our social ideal was the well-bred man.” (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to George H.W. Bush) “Rich people rigged the system.” “Now, if you come from a family in the top 1 percent, your odds of going to an Ivy League school are seventy-seven times higher than if you come from a poor family. And a lot of schools around the country have more students in the top 1 percent than the bottom 60 percent.” “We now have this chasm between the children of the affluent and the children of the non-affluent.” Shocking stats: “By eighth grade, children of the affluent are four grade levels higher than children of the non-affluent. People who grew up in college-educated homes live eight years longer than people in high-school-educated homes, they’re five times less likely to die of opioid addiction, they’re twenty-two times less likely to have children out of wedlock, they’re two and a half times less likely to say they have no close friends.” “We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” Too much power What is “merit”? How do you define “merit”? Who has “ability”? IQ is not a good indicator of merit. “Our meritocracy measures people by how well they do in school. The definition of intelligence is academic ability.” “What’s the correlation between getting good grades in school and doing well in life? The correlation is basically zero.” “We measure people by how they do in one setting, which is the classroom. And then we use that to declare how prepared they are for another setting, which is the workplace.” “Augustine said, we're primarily not thinking creatures, we're primarily desiring creatures.” Leon Kass (University of Chicago): “What defines a person is the ruling passion of their soul.” “We become what we love.” Predominant emotion of fear Curiosity, the love of learning, and getting better every day “You’re plenty smart. You’re just not curious.” Tina Turner’s memoir, discovering her voice and self-respect. “What matters is being a grower, the ability to keep growing.” “Getting old takes guts.” (David Brooks’s eighty-nine-year-old father) A sense of purpose The drive for the future, to be bold Henry Delacroix and the genius of America to drive for boldness, hard work, growth, and energy Moral materialism Vincent van Gogh said, “I’m in it with all my heart.” Paul Cézanne and Émile Zola, L’Oeuvre Yo-Yo Ma, cello, elite performance, and passionate humanity: “I’m a people person.” “Look at these creatures. They’re amazing!” Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances “Social intelligence” is not really intelligence—it’s an emotional capacity. Individuals and teams “What makes a good team? It’s not the IQ of the individuals. It’s the ability to take turns while talking. It's the ability to volley ideas and to feed into a common funnel of thought.” Project Based Learning Most Likely to Succeed (documentary, High Tech High) The Hour Between Dog and Wolf John Coates Self-awareness and adeptness reading your own body Emotional agility “The mind is built for motion. That what we do in life, we don’t solve problems, we navigate complex terrains.” “We’re all pilgrims. And we’re all searching for the journey that will transform us. And so it’s, the mind is not this computer designed to solve problems. The mind has helped us navigate through a space. And if we do it well, then we become transformed.” Applying meritocracy to the 2024 election “If you segregate your society on IQ, You're inherently segregating on elitist grounds.” “The rebellion that is Donald Trump.” Jesus’s form of selection—“When Jesus was selecting his twelve, he didn’t give them all a bunch of standardized tests. … He saw that each person was made in the image of God.” “And to me, what (frankly) the Christian world offers us is a re centring of the human person.” Controlling the passions of your heart Christian humanism Ecce Homo Rene Girard and mimetic desire Ambition vs. Aspiration The gospel of Ted Lasso and David Brooks’s favorite definition of moral formation: “My goal is to make these fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field.” *Still Evangelical* (essay by Mark Labberton) “Am I yet evangelical?”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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Our increasingly reactionary political environment doesn’t lend itself to nuanced, patient understanding of events like the 2024 re-election of Donald Trump. What historical and philosophical resources can help us gain insight and wisdom? How can we successfully know and encounter each other in such a divided society?
In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here.
Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more.
About David Brooks
David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen (Random House, 2023). He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project.
Show Notes
A spiritual or emotional crisis we’re working out in American politics Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden’s Covid-19 overstimulation) Class divide is a generational thing High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the “Death of God” An exiled Republican “Confessions of a Republican Exile” (via The Atlantic): ”A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party.” “I’m a Whig.” (”Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.”) Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—”don’t revolutionize something you don’t understand.” You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care. Alexander Hamilton Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican Isaiah Berlin: “At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency.” “The capacity for self-critique Matt Yglesias Humble, introspective, and “how did we get so out of touch?” Racism and sexism are not what’s driving Trump voters “In my opinion, Donald Trump is wrong answer to the right question.” Mark Noll and America’s use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic Jonathan Rauch and “Epistemic Regime”: includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc. “There’s still a core of people who believe ‘if the evidence says x, you should say y.’” “The greatest victory in the history of the world.” Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility “Reality is constantly going to surprise you.” 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated Conservative book publishing *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks “The Stacking Stereotype” “A redistribution of respect” (away from large swaths of America and to elites) “The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials.” “… almost no Trump supporters.” “If you tell 51% of the country ‘Your voices don’t matter,’ people are going to get upset.” America changing beneath us High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence The moral teaching of the New Testament “People are unitary wholes.” “I became a Christian around 2013.” “Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don.” C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien’s Christianity “What it’s like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist.” Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith What is needed? “I was a 50-year-old atheist.” Chris Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditations of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn’t explain the world “If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…” “Be not afraid.” “The world just loves a human being that’s trying to act like Jesus.” David Brooks’s teaching at Yale The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy DayProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm?
In this special Election Day episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times, The Atlantic) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US general election.
Together they discuss the emotional response to political media; faithful alternatives to the overabundance of fear, anxiety, and catastrophizing; how the threat of affective polarization divides families and friendships; biblical attitudes toward troubling or frightening political and cultural events; how to respond to vitriol, anger, cynicism, hate, and manipulative language; and how the church can help restore trust and be a faithful witness, standing firm through the political storm.
About Peter Wehner
Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships.
Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives.
Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.
About David Goatley
David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995).
In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment.
Show Notes
Anxiety, Uncertainty, and Worst-Case Scenarios The regular appeal to “the most important election of our lifetimes” Assuming the worst about others “We are at a fork in the road for a certain kind of vision of who we want to be.” “As an African American, many of us always live in the crosswinds.” Living with fragility, vulnerability, and uncertainty Hymn: “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand” Anger, Antipathy, and Fear Passions and beliefs—and an electoral system built to amplify those “They’re more amplified than in the past.” Families and friendships that divide over politics. Feeling like we “share a continent but not a country” Affective polarization—”There’s a sense of the other side being an enemy.” Catastrophizing Recalibrate, reset, and rethink Hoping that calmer heads prevail Church splintering and aligning with partisan politics “God will use all things—not that God intends all things.” The political balance wheel “Fear is not a Christian state of mind.” “Hope is based on something real.” “The long game for believers is to hearken back to the early church and remember that Jesus is Lord, and the emperor is not.” Political toxicity that infects the household of faith “We have to do all that we can to live with peacefully with each other.” Vitriol, hubris “It’s important to name things. … If you don’t name them—if you try to hide them—then you can’t begin the process of healing.” “Faith is subordinate to other factors that they’re not aware of.” The Era of Fear: What informs our fears? What can we do about our fears? Fear of the Lord that sets us free Firmness as an alternative to fighting or fleeing “Valuing the vibrant diversity of God” “Expand your reading.” Breaking out of conformity and homogeneity “Meeting the moment”: Inflection points in a human life or a society’s life—a moment for leaders to rise up, speak, and shape Example: Winston Churchill and Great Britain pre–World War II (from pariah to prime minister) Example: Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation and the agenda to make schools phone-free These aren’t the conditions for human flourishing “We’ve got to be faithful. We may not be successful.” Cultivating a political garden to prepare the soil for shared core values of decency, respect, fairness “… what we have loved, / Others will love, and we will teach them how” (William Wordsworth, “The Prelude”) Loving the right things Voting “Complicating my view of the world.” “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Before voting: “A prayer to submit myself to the will of God.” “Tell me how you came to believe what you believe … over time it can create a feeling of trust” “What don’t I see? What about my own blindspots?” Stunned by the profundity and sobering word that “God will not be mocked” Expressing convictions through votingProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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The history of racism has a parallel history of resistance. Courageous women and men have responded to injustice with lives of faith, hope, and love—bearing witness to the spirit of justice. They have inspiring stories we can learn from today. But who is willing to tell those stories? And who is willing to hear them?
In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to discuss his new book, The Spirit of Justice—a summoning of over fifty courageous individuals who resisted racism throughout US history. The book is a beautiful quilt of stories and profiles, stitched together through Tisby’s contemporary cultural analysis.
Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky.
Recent Books by Jemar Tisby
The Spirit of Justice *Available now
I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025
*Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children’s book releasing January 7, 2025
About Jemar Tisby
Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of new book The Spirit of Justice, New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby.
Show Notes
The Color of Compromise (available here)*—*the larger narrative of (Christian) America’s racist history Myrlie Evers Williams on her husband Medgar Evers’s death Myrlie Evers Williams: “I see something today that I hoped I would never see again. That is prejudice, hatred, negativism that comes from the highest points across America. She told us then with the candor that comes with old age, she said, and I found myself asking Medgar in the conversations that I have with him. Is this really what's happening again in this country? And asking for guidance because I don't mind admitting this to the press, I'm a little weary at this point.” Fighting for justice “Black people are born into a situation in which we are forced to defend, assert, and constantly so, our humanity. And that is in the midst of constant attacks on our humanity, big and small, whether it is the vicarious suffering that we see when there's another cell phone video of a black person being brutalized by law enforcement, whether it is, you know, We all have memories of the first time we were called the N word, uh, whether it is going into the workplace and wondering if you didn't get that raise or you were passed over for that promotion, if it had anything to do with the color of your skin, even subconsciously. And so we are born into a situation in which resistance is a daily reality.” Sister Thea Bowman, Black Catholic Mississippian Nun “Her holiness leaps off the page.” Simmons College, Louisville, KY Jim Crow Era: “How do you tell the story of the Jim Crow era without centering the white supremacy, the violence, the segregation—How do you center black people in that era?” William J. Simmons, Men of the Mark The history of Simmons College as an HBCU Ida B. Wells Harriet Tubman (Araminta Ross) and the Underground Railroad Nursing, training, service, and freeing the slaves Combahee River Raid (led by Harriet Tubman)—she received a full military burial “We need the spirit of justice because injustice is present.” Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn “And in all kinds of ways, black people chose to fight their oppression.” Romans 5: Suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character. Character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame. “Hope is a decision.” (Archbishop Desmond Tutu) “They chose hope.” William Pannell, Fuller Theological Seminary—My Friend the Enemy (1968) Rodney King and “the coming race war” William Pannell’s impact on Mark Labberton Film: The Gospel According to Bill Pannell “When you see what's really motivating people, what's really stirring up fear and hatred, which can lead also to violence. It's still around race.” Racial anxiety and politics: “This is no longer a white man’s America.” The Holy Spirit “I’m getting so Pentecostal in these days.” Psalm 11:7: “God is a God of righteousness. God loves justice.” “When I think about what exactly the spirit of justice is, I think it's the fingerprint of God on every human being made in God's image that says I'm worthy of dignity, respect, and the freedom to flourish. And when that is taken away from me because of oppression and injustice, I have this spirit within me to resist.” “The spirit of justice gives us that resilience, that strength to become determined all over again. This is not a power that we find within ourselves to get back up again every time the backlash pushes us back. It is a power. the supernatural power, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, that also empowers us for the work of justice.” How to make a difference The variety of black experiences Jemar Tisby’s first picture book and young reader’s editionProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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