Afleveringen
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Working from home over the summer, primarily working on the Un-WOW book but other things as well, I get to see what passes for daytime television today. It takes me back to my childhood a little when I would be at my grandparentâs home during the summer months where they would watch me. This was in the archaic before-times, when cable television didnât exist. Although in Detroit we were living pretty large because we were able to get the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (or CBC) with our antenna. Even with this expanded option, my grandmotherâs TV was always tuned to the daytime soap operas, including the long-running One Life to Live. The show ran for 21 seasons, from 1968 to 2013. Being young, I never quite captured what was going on, but it all seemed pretty dramatic.
It is an interesting concept to ponder having âone life to live.â In a biological sense, that might be inarguable given that we are alive for a finite period of time. On the other hand, it is completely inaccurate. If you think about your own life, there are probably many different âlivesâ that you have lived. We might even think of them as stages in our lives, where we end one thing only to begin another.
At some point, to quote The Talking Heads David Byrne, âAnd you may ask yourself, Well, how did I get here?â Beats me. Some parts of my life seem many lifetimes ago. I donât even know who that person was. I can see glimpses of him, but that person isnât here anymore. All thatâs left is me right now, and even that is transitory.
So, many lives and many transitions in oneâs life. In fact, we can say that life is about transformation and transition, changing and becoming. Much more than just one life to live.
My guest on Experience by Design today Danielle Bennett has, like all of us, undergone some transitions in her life. First was her stint in the Navy, working first on the surface fleet and in the air service, and then on submarines, where she learned valuable lessons in leadership and how small errors can lead to major consequences. Then there was the transition out of the Navy due to a medical discharge, meaning finding her place and purpose in civilian life. There also was the transition to being a franchise owner and entrepreneur, as well as consultant and coach. Additionally, there was her gender transition to becoming a woman, making the decision to become Danielle.
We talk about lessons learned from the Navy, especially in the Silent Service, such as when a lack of coffee filters required immediate action. She also talks about how coaching girls softball and coaching business leaders can be very similar in that they both require helping guide people get the most out of themselves. Danielle uses the mantra of âChin up, chest outâ to promote pride in facing transitions with resilience. Danielle also shares how she works with clients to improve organizational systems, especially in the aerospace and defense industries.
Finally, Danielle talks about her book âLeadership Voltage: Capturing Lightning with Triadic Balance,â where she emphasizes âGrowth is everythingâ and leaders need to empower (rather than manage). She also shares her business academy DS7 Precision, offering 12-14 weeks intensive coaching programs.
LEARN MORE:
Danielle Bennett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellejoleighbennett/
Danielle Bennett Website: https://www.daniellejoleighbennett.com/
Radiant Legacy Collective: https://www.radiantlegacycollective.com/
DS7 Precision: https://ds7precision.com/
âLeadership Voltageâ: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Voltage-Capturing-Lightning-Triadic/dp/B0GVNBYGHF/
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As I have been going through this book writing journey, one of the most interesting parts has been the focus on storytelling. In academic writing, there tends to be more of a focus on a kind of sanitized relating of âfactsâ in a very disimpassioned way. Also, there is the verbose tendency to describe things, using many words to explain simple things. If words equaled money, academics would be the richest people in the world. But more words doesnât equal greater understanding and better storytelling. In fact, it can be quite the opposite. It is not how much we say, but how we say it. What makes for a good storyteller is that they know how to say it.
Being able to tell a story shouldnât be that hard since it is a part of our human experience and existence. Afterall, this is how people have shared information for a long time. So why is it so hard to write that way? Why are we so often insecure in terms of telling stories and communicating with others in that form? It is true that being a good storytelling is an art, but it is also science. There are elements that we can break down as part of storytelling. And today, there is more dazzling technology to assist in immersing people in the stories being told. However, at its core, it is still about telling a story that captures the attention and imagination of the audience, to bring others into the space that is being described.
Iâm very pleased to have today on Experience by Design podcast Charles Melcher, master storyteller, creator, and founder of Melcher Press as well as the Future of StoryTelling, a live event that focused on new developments at the intersection of storytelling and technology. Finally, there is the book âThe Future of Storytellingâ which is a visually engaging and wonderfully creative exploration on emerging directions of telling stories and engaging audiences.
With all of that experience, he clearly has a lot to say and share about storytelling. We talk about his early journey at Yale, where he studied literary criticism. He talks about his exploration of Robert Frankâs photography, capturing experiences and telling stories through images. The examination of Frank would go on to exert a significant influence on how Charles thought about images and stories.
We discuss the balance between artistic expression and commercial appeal in publishing, sharing his experiences in high-end art books and commercially viable projects. Charles also talks about trying to balance technological wonder with intimacy, sharing examples of where he tried to combine intimate moments but in a large-scale production. Part of this is engaging the audience, preferring the term âActiansâ which captures the active role of audiences in modern storytelling.
Finally, we talk about worldbuilding and immersive storytelling, creating the potential for surface entertainment and deeper narrative engagement, allowing audience members to customize their experience based on the level they choose to engage with the immersive environment (much like literary criticism). He shares how this is part of his most recent project, the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, which opens this July 4th weekend in Medora, North Dakota. As he describes, the library aims to help visitors embody Rooseveltâs values and experiences.
As we celebrate the 250th anniversary of the United States this weekend, it is a great time to explore telling complex stories that enrich, educate, entertain, and immerse.
Charles Melcher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmelcher/
Melcher Media: https://melcher.com/
The Future of Storytelling event: https://futureofstorytelling.org/
âThe Future of Storytellingâ book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1648293832
Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library: https://www.trlibrary.com/
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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If you are a long-time listener to Experience by Design, you know that I work at a business university that has its foundations as a school for training in accounting and finance. Since its founding in 1917, not much has changed in terms of that focus. We are still primarily known for our education in accounting and finance. When I first started there (almost 27 years ago now), I really had no idea what finance was or what was involved in it. Iâm sorry to say that Iâm only slightly more informed today. I still find finance a bit of a black box despite my years of service and conversations with my Finance department colleagues.
Iâm definitely not alone in this. As we have discussed in other episodes of Experience by Design, financial literacy is pretty low overall. Repeated surveys have shown that around half of US adults are financially literate. That number drops further when the topic focuses on financial risk. When comparing different generations, not surprisingly younger generations suffer from a lack of financial literacy. We all could use some extra help in terms of financial literacy, financial planning, and fiscal responsibility.
Today on Experience by Design, I welcome Mike Milligan to the show. Mike grew up being fascinated by money. Today, he runs 1 Oak Financial, which stands for âone of a kindâ. Along with his work with clients, he also has created a financial planning online course which is offered through Old Dominion University (where he also teaches). He also wrote the book âThe One of a Kind Financial Plan.â What is really great about Mikeâs approach is that he tailors his planning and strategy to his client, creating a client-centric experience that helps them break free from the traditional approaches that can take advantage of clients.
We talk about generational divides in financial literacy and planning, looking at spending and saving trends among Gen Z and even Gen Alpha. Mike emphasizes the need for a holistic approach to understanding markets, trends, and financial risk with changing job markets and emerging technology. He shares how he tailors client education to generational characteristics, trying to meet clients where they are in order to have the maximum learning impact. Toward this end, we also talk about his new book project âAmplifyâ, which explores how podcasting and social media have become resources for financial literacy. As he emphasizes, the microphone is the most powerful tool in the financial industry.
Finally, we also talk about his favorite mermaid in Norfolk, Virginia where he lives. He discusses the upcoming 250th anniversary of the United States, especially in locations of colonial heritage and extensive US history like Boston, Philadelphia, and Norfolk. Plus we share how great sociology is.
Mike Milligan Website: https://www.mikemilligan.com/
Mike Milligan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemilligancfp/
1.oak Financial: https://1oakfinancial.com/
Ideas by Mike Podcast: https://ideas-by-mike.blubrry.net/
The One of a Kind Financial Plan: https://www.amazon.com/One-Kind-Financial-Plan-Actually/dp/1967587027/
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I have some pretty exciting news to announce, and Iâm glad to be doing it here first. I have completed my book manuscript, tentatively titled The Un-WOW: A Guide to Experiences Designs of All Kinds. You will notice the subtitle is taken from Experience by Design podcast, where we explore experience designs of all kinds. In the manuscript, I take a lot from guests I have talked to over the years. One thing that I have learned in that experiences come in different types, shapes, and packages. As experience designers, the world is our palette on which we can make our figurative marks.
One of the key premises of the manuscript is that we donât have to create grand, well-orchestrated, staged WOW experiences to make a difference. In fact, most of our lives are made up of The Un-WOW, mundane everyday experiences that are more spontaneous than staged. These experiences canât be completely pre-arranged and programmed, relying on people connecting on a more human (and humane) level. As experience designers, we might create the contours of these moments, but we canât (and shouldnât) control them.
So the manuscript is part experience design philosophy, part strategy, part how-to guide, and hopefully all entertaining. Iâll soon be launching some pre-publishing publicity and marketing, so stay tuned for that.
These themes are present on this episode of Experience by Design as well. In fact, I used this conversation in the manuscript! Today I chat with Gerry Scullion, consultant and founder of the agency Humana, keynote speaker, host of This is HCD podcast (the number 1 human-centered design podcast in the world), and organizer of the Human Centered Design Network. With all of that going on, plus with his over 20 years of experience, he has a lot to say about service design, user experience, and more generally human-centered design.
He tells of how he was self-taught in the UX space, embracing a âfake it till you make itâ approach. We talk about how it is the little touches that can have the biggest impact on our experiences. We explore doing experience design work in the government and social service sector. He describes the challenges of innovation in bureaucracy. Gerry shares the importance of finding opportunities to create a more humane experience when people are at their most vulnerable. He tells of how he loves being able to help and support people when they are in the greatest need, and how experience design work provides the opportunity to have that impact.
There was plenty more in the conversation. I learned so much I included it in my manuscript!
Gerry Scullion Website: https://gerryscullion.com/
Gerry Scullion on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerryscullion/
Humana Design: https://humana.design/
This is HCD Podcast: https://www.thisishcd.com/
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Despite it being the summer months, Iâve started helping out with coaching Nordic skiing junior athletes who are part of a ski club. It has been a fun journey, which has included getting a coaching certification through the US Ski and Snowboard Association. Recently, Iâve been working with some athletes on a weekly training run, because after all fast skiers are made in the summer. Being back with a club has given me the chance to catch up with another coach, who is a friend and training partner who also happens to be a very accomplished scholar at a neighboring university. After the run, we were chatting in the parking lot (as runners will do after a run) about our work. He told me about an interesting project he is starting up.
It involves looking at the many universities around the world are launching programs in entrepreneurship, and also how entrepreneurs are portrayed in popular culture in different countries. We got to talking about it and also got me to thinking about the nature of entrepreneurship in all of its forms. After all, Google was started as an entrepreneurial effort. So was Apple. And Microsoft. The list goes on about major companies that started out as small businesses.
I donât know that we would count these multinationals as entrepreneurial efforts any longer. Iâm not sure these big corporations hold a lot in common with local businesses. Or maybe they still have a lot in common. The differences in their sizes obscure the shared feelings of anxiety that must have existed when starting out, drawn by the lure of owning something. Iâve known people who had very successful corporate careers, only to leave them to start their own consulting business. I also have known people who left similar careers to open restaurants. People are drawn to being their own boss for a variety of reasons, but in every case one of the things that can determine success in company growth is how effective a leader you are.
Today on Experience by Design, I welcome Reed Nyffeler to the show. Reed is a lifeline entrepreneur who has founded a number of companies. This includes Signal (a security company), Filtergo (a HVAC filter replacement company), and Framebrand, âa development company that helps franchise brands scale more effectively.â He also is the author of the book âTransform through Purpose: Your Path to Living an Authentic and Intentional Life,â as well as his new book âLead Exponentially.â In his new book, he explores themes around authentic and empowered leadership, creating environments and examples that will live on for generations.
In our conversation, we talk about how his sociology minor was one of the key factors in his success, especially in decision making and leadership. Reed relates his experiences working for Black and Decker and DeWalt Power Tools, and how too much choice can lead to customer confusion. He shares how they came up with âGustyâ, the brand character behind FilterGo, and how fun and playful stands out against conventional and boring. Finally, we talk about the role of creativity in business and education, highlighting the importance of risk-taking in American culture and as an essential element in economic success.
Itâs a great conversation about culture, entrepreneurship, brand, and leadership.
Reed Nyffeler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reednyffeler/
Reed Nyffeler Website: https://reednyffeler.com/
âLead Exponentiallyâ: https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Exponentially-Developing-Authentic-Intentional/dp/B0DZ8QVP9Y
âTransform Through Purposeâ:
https://www.amazon.com/Transform-Through-Purpose-Authentic-Intentional/dp/B0DPLCRJZG
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I think it is part of getting older that you start to think of your past not as one singular life, but a series of lives that have culminated into wherever you are at the moment. The passage of time allows for that perspective, but I suppose a five year old is going to think in similar terms of where did the time go, it was just yesterday that I was four (which in fact, it was). We all go through episodes and identities and phases, which can involve different outfits and hats and accessories. It can be a fun ride. Perhaps in a sense reincarnation isnât about coming back from a previous life in a literal sense, but how we evolve in this one.
In one of my past lives, I worked at United Way Community Services. For those not familiar, United Way serves as a conduit to disseminate funds to partner social service agencies. I was doing research in the Research and Data Services division. It was a good way to be introduced to the world of social services and non-profits, developing a deep appreciation for their work and the challenges associated with their work. The degree to which it is challenging is proportionate to how vital it is. In the land of profit-margins and mass consumption, social services are often misunderstood and ignored (except by those who need their work).
My guest today on Experience by Design describes herself as a âpissed-off optimist.â You have to be both to do the work that she does at Greater Good Studios. Sara Cantor went to graduate school for human-centered design, then applying her skills and passion in retail spaces. Further work with major corporations left her wanting to do more and have a greater impact. This led her to co-found âa design firm dedicated to the social sector.â Rather than moving product, their goal is to build âa more equitable societyâ through work that is âmore inclusive, innovative, and impactful.â
We talk about her journey to the work that speaks her passion today. She recalls transitioning from engineering into design. Sara describes her work in projects like creating marketing materials for maternal and infant mortality prevention programs. She talks about the importance of involving those directly impacted by social services in the design and decision-making processes. She shares her experience working to develop initiatives aimed at increasing homeownership for families that were traditionally locked out. We also discuss designers as social justice catalysts, addressing social injustice, channeling anger productively, and motivating positive change.
And I have to say this is a very motivational conversation about what can be accomplished through good design.
Sara Cantor on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/saracantor/
Greater Good Studio: https://greatergoodstudio.com/
Greater Good Studio on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/greater-good-studio/
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It is indeed an exciting time to be alive. Iâm not talking about AI, but OTAs, or Organized Team Activities in the National Football League. Non-contact football practices have just commenced. Our hometown heroes the New England Patriots are coming off a very successful season, which unfortunately ended in the Patriots getting shellacked by the Seattle Seahawks (so much so I stopped watching the game).
If Patriots fans thought that was the low point of this year, recent stories around the head coach Mike Vrabelâs personal activities (shall we say) have raised questions around how successful this season is going to be. Being a leader can require a lot of focus to the task at hand. If you canât focus, can you lead? Or, is there going to be a level of distraction interfering with the focus that is needed to succeed at that level.
It seems that the only story getting more press than the Mike Vrabel saga is the artificial intelligence saga. AI is impossible to escape in the press and in our lives. When I was at the FTT Fintech and Customer Alpha event, every session had some discussion about AI. In these discussions, it is interesting to hear the ever fluctuating claims about how essential AI is to a companyâs success. There are stories about how it is vital to success, as well as stories about how it is going to contribute to failure. There is a lot of space in between those extremes to add further stories.
These discussions raise the question about what it means to âembrace technology.â There is a difference between a company embracing technology and becoming beholden to it. We are seeing many companies becoming beholden to AI. Some companies are becoming beholden by making the decision to turn their operations to AI, reducing headcount, and dealing with the aftermath if the expected returns have not materialized. Or, they are now seeing the price of tokens being significantly increased. Other companies, by comparison, are embracing technology by finding areas where its use fits and is appropriate. Adoption involves whether technology is seen as a tool or technology as a determinant.
It all comes down to leadership, and making strategic decisions in times of uncertainty.
This is why we have this week on Experience by Design Marianne Bachynski, Chief Information Officer, Author, Speaker, and Strategic Advisor. Marianneâs expertise lies in aligning IT Operations and Business Strategies to achieve organizational goals and foster sustainable growth. There perhaps is no better time to engage a conversation around strategic use of technology than now.
In our chat, Marianne suggests that AI can unlearn more quickly due to its objective nature and the ability to be retrained, but it lacks empathy and can have unchecked bias unless trained by humans. In other words, why we still need humans in the loop. We also discuss how new technology creates opportunities for experimentation and innovation, but only if we are not relying on it just to replicate what weâve done in the past.
Marianne stresses that especially in times of rapid technological change, success comes down to people and how culture still matters. We have to hire curious people to begin with, and continue to engage them around the what and why of your decisions. People need to be shown that they still matter, and that we are all in this together.
This includes people at all levels of the organization. Marianne describes how her end of summer meeting with interns was her favorite meeting because of the unique perspectives and creative ideas that were shared. Marianne highlights the need for leaders to shift from micromanaging to influencing and coaching, while also fostering a sense of community and shared purpose. Marianne shares her hope that her book, Fit for Uncertainty, would help readers change their leadership approach and build coping skills for stress.
Ultimately, Marianne shares that leaders of all kinds need to have the humility that allows them to say âI donât knowâ and be open to learning from many different voices, which still includes human intelligence.
Marianne Bachynski Website: https://mariannebachynski.com/
Marianne Bachynski on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marianne-bachynski/
Fit for Uncertainty: Lead with Purpose, Adapt to Change: https://mariannebachynski.com/book/
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For regular listeners of Experience by Design, youâll know that I have had a bit of travel of late. London. Florence, Italy. Even Lake Placid, New York. To be honest, I donât like traveling. I like being places, but donât love the process of getting there. I donât think Iâm alone in that feeling. Travel can be taxing. Being there should be enjoyable. Or some might say an experience.
Hospitality is a big part of experience design. In fact, while a lot of attention is given to customer experience, user experience, patient experience, and employee experience, travel and tourism is a major area of work for designers of experiences. Admittedly, it is not something that I have done any work in, but it is something that I have experienced as a person who has traveled.
It used to be the case that you learned about a travel location through the pamphlets on racks by the hotel door. Or some local restaurant. Or a local attraction. These pamphlets don't do much to tell a story about the location you're in. As a result, it can be very difficult to learn about local history and culture. Samantha Hardcastle is on a mission to change that by linking local community and culture into storied experiences.
Samantha grew up in the travel industry, as her mother was a travel agent. She got to see behind the scenes at how things worked. After getting a degree in marketing, her first client was a hotel. Throughout her career, she has sought to create better hospitality and tourism experiences not just for travelers, but for the people who host travelers and the communities in which these places are located.
Today, she runs her own consultancy called The Storied Experience. As her website states, âOur approach puts equal emphasis on cultural immersion, wellbeing and transformation, and regenerative impact to ensure weâre co-creating a highly-valuable, in-demand experience.â
We talk about our relationship with vacation as a culture, and whether we let ourselves to truly turn âoff.â As a result, we need to encourage more escapism on a regular basis, and need the places where we can do that. She describes work that she has done with clients to bring local culture into contemporary accommodations and features. Part of this includes creating micro-experiences that engage curiosity and imagination in a way that also promotes reflection.
Finally, she describes how she found her way into experience design, and the way in which she pulls from many different areas. Part of this included books on world building, story development, and ethnography. She even pulls from works of fiction for how to develop characters, a plot, and story arc. A key challenge she shares is how do we continue to create stories and experience when peopleâs attention spans are so short. This is a challenge that most of us can identify with, and she shares how she tried to crack it and succeeded.
It is a perfect time for this conversation as we are approaching the summer travel and vacation season!
Samantha Hardcastle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/skhardcastle/
The Storied Experience: https://www.thestoriedexperience.com/
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I just got back from the Customer Alpha event that was part of the broader FTT Embedded Finance, Payments, and Future Identity event, put on by VC Innovations. It was the first time Iâve spoken publicly about my concept of THE UN-WOW, focusing our efforts more on everyday mundane experiences rather than transformative metamorphic experiences. There is more to it than that, so stay tuned for updates as I work on a book on THE UN-WOW.
While in London, I was able to go to the Tate Modern Art Museum. This was quite the shift after visiting museums in Florence with all of the Renaissance representational art. One of the interesting differences between the two is that the art in Florence often was made for patrons who were commissioning artwork, which ultimately was made to please those patrons. The art in the Tate often was made by artists who were trying to please themselves using art as a statement. As a result, the artistsâ statements became a key piece of looking at and understanding what the art was meant to represent and the response it was hoping to create.
Regardless of whether sponsored representational or abstract and surreal, through art one can give external voice to oneâs internal dialogue to create a social experience.
On todayâs episode of Experience by Design podcast, I welcome Ali Fawkes, the Head of Social Innovation at the social design firm Humanly. âHumanly is an award-winning design studio specializing in human-centered design for social impact.â On their website, they continue to describe themselves as, âspecialising in inclusive, creative and participatory research and design with seldom-heard and underrepresented groups.â
I came to learn about Ali and Humanly through a paper she co-authored on âCo-designing the Future of Respiratory Healthcareâ in the journal CoDesign - the International Journal of CoCreation in Design and the Arts, detailing their work and approach.
Ali is a self-described âart kid,â who found an outlet for her own voice. She went on to get a degree in Fine Art from the University of Kent, as well as additional certifications and degrees in Secondary Art and Special and Inclusive Education from the University of Cambridge. Ali describes co-design efforts she did with students during her work as a secondary school art teacher and educator in schools whose students had special needs.
She describes her journey from that rewarding work to working with Humanly. We discuss how being an outsider with little knowledge about a setting or industry can be a real gift to having open eyes and ears to learn from people who are often not listened to. Ali discusses the ethical considerations and methodologies involved in working with underrepresented groups, emphasizing the importance of truthful representation and co-design approaches. We also discuss the importance of her artistic background as a source of challenging norms and disruption, leading to innovative approaches.
And if doing social design and impact isnât enough heavy lifting, Ali also participates in strongperson competitions, lifting very heavy things and sometimes having to carry them across distances. Which is not unlike trying to lift complex problems and carry solutions forward.
I always love good art talk on Experience by Design, and especially when it is connected to social impact.
Ali Fawkes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alifawkes/
Humanly: https://www.designhumanly.com/
âCo-designing the Future of Respiratory Healthcareâ: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15710882.2025.2603298
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Iâm off again. This weekend Iâll be heading to London for the Customer Alpha event, where Iâll be delivering the keynote for the conference. âCustomer Alpha is a leading customer experience event bringing together a cross-industry community of professionals who never stop striving to better understand and deliver for customers.â How cool is that! Iâm excited to be there, and talking about my concept of The UN-WOW. The basic idea is that rather than just focusing on those WOW moments, we need to focus on how to deliver value and connection in those basic day-to-day interactions where people donât want to be WOWâed.
A lot of focus on the WOW is around the idea that things only qualify as experiences when they hit that WOW level. So if you are an experience designer, odds are you are going to shoot for that WOW. But that can be a big hill to climb, and it misses the other types of opportunities that exist which donât involve those dramatically staged moments. Also, staged can feel inauthentic and not organic. To be staged can also feel performative. Performance can also involve a script. The words being spoken are yours, but ones written for you by someone else.
Thus, the UN-WOW is in part a call for the small moments that create connection and a sense of authenticity.
Todayâs guest on Experience by Design also has thoughts on the role of making connections in human moments as part of customer experience. Natalie Beckerman, Executive Vice President and Chief Business Officer at iQor, has experience across many different industries, organizations, and continents. Regardless of where she has been, she has seen the same problems which involve the pursuit of efficiency at the cost of humanity. Part of this lies in not using technology in a way that enhances experiences.
Seeing this problem led her to write her new best selling book, âWhen Did You Stop Caring: The Call to Reignite Humanity in a World Obsessed with Efficiency.â In her book, she calls for companies to do better for customers and workers by focusing on what matters: people. Using examples from her career and research, she lays out why it makes sense to start caring not only because it is the right thing to do, but because businesses that care do better.
We talk about her career and her book. We also talk about her work with Customer Contact Week, which hosts events around the world. This includes CCW UK which takes place May 11-13, or next week!
Natalie shares her athletic past, including playing on the US National Field Hockey Team and being an All-American at Northwestern University. Along with her Masters degree in Sports Psychology, Natalie links how optimizing performance should be not just about the outcome, but also the impacts that processes, systems, and cultures have on the people who are part of it.
We also celebrate her induction into the Rancocas Valley Regional High School Athletic Hall of Fame.
Learn more:Natalie Beckerman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliedbeckerman1/
âWhen did You Stop Caringâ: https://www.amazon.com/When-Did-You-Stop-Caring/dp/1969508442
iQor: https://www.iqor.com/
Customer Contact Week Europe: https://europe.customercontactweekdigital.com
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This last week of being back from Florence has given me a chance to reflect a bit on he experience of not just being in a foreign country, but being in a completely different kind of physical environment. By that I mean, the city of Florence, or more specifically a city where I was walking everywhere. The origins of Florence date back to around 59 BCE. From that time, the city has continuously grown and evolved to what it is today.
When you look at a map of Florence, you see a lot of twisty and windy streets that are built with cobblestones and buildings that run almost right up against them. From an accessibility standpoint, it presents a lot of challenges as I saw people being pushed in wheelchairs with great effort (or pulling suitcases for that matter). But beyond that, there is a quaintness and opportunity to be in a place where there are more people moving around than cars. Moving freely in a way that was unencumbered by traffic, being able to explore and discover, feeling a certain kind of vibrancy rooted in antiquity but lived in modernity.
And now I am back in the exurbs, which has its own kind of design, whether it be intentional or just organic. Like Florence, homes and streets get built at different times. Some structures are destroyed and then rebuilt, green spaces created, land getting preserved, other land getting constructed. It is not just a dance of history, but also the presence or absence of intentional design.
To talk about designing cities, I welcome Itai Palti to the Experience by Design studios. Itai has a background in architecture and working as an architect. He also is the founder of the Centre for Conscious Design, âan international collective promoting the emergence of healthy built environments using Conscious Design principles.â Together they promote the Conscious Cities Movement, âa global movement that reimagines the built environment as an extension of ourselves and our communities.â
We talk about how architecture can be about community empowerment, creating environments and structures that bring people together rather than drive them apart. Itai talks about the decline of serendipitous connections, especially in cultures that de-emphasize community and prioritize solitude. Between those poles is the need to find compromise in how we build lived environments.
Itai also discussed the importance of using scientific insights into architectural design. We explore how architects need to balance client demands with their desire to create socially impactful design. Accomplishing this goal requires that more than architects be involved, leveraging the expertise from all disciplines to come together in constructive dialogue to combine knowledge to create better cities and communities. Thus, we talk about systems design as well, and how the built environment is a key element in experience design.
After being in Florence for only a few days, which was enough time to enjoy a walkable environment, that is something I can attest to.
Itai Palti on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/itaipalti/
The Center for Conscious Design: https://theccd.org/
Conscious Cities Movement: https://theccd.org/conscious-cities/
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I am back from my trip to Florence, and am covered in history. It is impossible to go to Florence and not be. Unless you are a college student who is doing study abroad and only know about Rafael, Donatello, Michelangelo, and Leonardo from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon and movie. It was kind of crazy to be able to walk around and casually see works of art from the 1300s. It is easy to say things like âFlorence is the birthplace of the Renaissance,â but when you see it in person, it makes quite the impression. Staring at a Giotti or a Botticelli or a Caravaggio leaves a mark. Being able to walk streets or sit in piazzas, thinking about the centuries of footsteps that preceded puts one life in a certain perspective.
Speaking of perspective, I donât know if anything quite prepares you for standing in front of David looming over the crowds. Perfectly proportionate but on a whole other scale.
It wasnât just the past that was impressive, but the present as well. The artists who were working on the streets, showing their beautiful works in front of other beautiful works while people walked by in beautiful fashion. Beauty upon beauty upon beauty. While there, I even had the chance to take in a Mark Rothko exhibit, who interestingly enough was influenced by Renaissance art and visited Florence many times.
So much art, so many museums, so many ways to tell the story of this history.
This is why it is good timing to have Will Humphrey of the agency Sugar Creative on Experience by Design. Will started out as a fine artist, having his work exhibited as any artist would. His education combines degrees in Graphic Design and Communication as well as Molecular Genetics. Today he is the Director of Creative and Innovation at Sugar. At Sugar, he is part of a creative force that combines augmented reality, virtual reality, storytelling, and history together to bring the past into the present.
We talk about Sugarâs project on the American Revolution that will allow users to experience pivotal historical moments through interactive experiences. Will shared the inspiration he received from his grandfather, who developed anti-aircraft balloons during the Battle of Britain. We share our appreciation of video games, especially those with historical features and lessons, such as Assassinâs Creed Valhalla. Will talks about how they are working with Ubisoft to combine gaming and history to make for immersive learning experiences.
Will shares insights from his work on geolocated experiences, highlighting the value of immersing oneself in a set of ideas and understanding the physical and historical context of a place. We also discussed how physical transformations, such as landfill in Boston, affect our understanding of history and the importance of considering the nature of a space in designing experiences.
We cover a lot of ground in this chat, which is about as much ground as I covered walking around Florence and its many museums.
Will Humphrey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/willhumphreyuk/
Sugar Creative: https://www.sugar.agency/
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By the time that you are listening to this, I should be in Florence, Italy visiting my daughter who is studying abroad. Iâve never been to Italy, and by extension of that Iâve never been to Florence, so there is going to be a lot to experience while there. Hopefully there will be some fun tales to tell afterwards!
Having stories to tell is different from being able to tell stories. It is an art to be able to tell a good story, one that not only keeps people engaged, but also transmits some knowledge or lesson as well. Stories are one of the best ways to share knowledge in a way that is relatable and impactful.
One of the things that I have learned from doing this podcast is that everyone has a story to tell. I also have learned that sometimes people need some assistance telling their story. That can be limited to just some conversational prompts on a podcast, or a longer-term mentoring about how to put those stories in writing.
Iâve long been interested in public scholarship, taking what I know as an academic and putting it into terms that a broader public can be engaged in. As an academic, I also know that my communication style has been heavily influenced by academic writing, which if you have ever tried to read that style you will know that it isnât conducive to engagement. So you could say I needed a little help with telling my story.
Thatâs why I partnered with Eric Koester and his company Manuscripts. Thatâs also why I am having him as a guest on EXD today. Eric started Manuscripts from an experiment that he ran while teaching a college class. The assignment for all of his students was to write a book by the end of the semester. From that process came the idea of a larger effort to help people tell their stories, and that has resulted in 3500+ published authors, 350+ national and international award winners and finalists, and a 90% manuscript completion rate. I might add that Manuscripts also is a Certified B Corp!.
Eric and I cover a lot of ground in this conversation. We discuss the limits of modern-day education, and how to design more impactful learning experiences. A key is to connect with peopleâs interests and passions. Eric shares findings from his research on inflection points in people's careers, highlighting that substantive, collaborative projects are key to achieving such points. Eric emphasizes the need for projects that can be packaged and completed, such as a 12-episode podcast season or a 200-page book, rather than starting with smaller tasks like a blog or a single podcast episode.
Eric discusses the importance of systems in achieving goals, particularly in writing books and dissertations, and highlighted Manuscript's B Corp certification as part of its mission to empower underheard authors. We discuss the principles of creating knowledge movements and thought leadership through books. Eric explains that successful movement-driven books typically teach either a new type of person to aspire to be or a new type of action to aspire to do, emphasizing the importance of simplicity and intrigue.
And I can say for me that working with Eric and Manuscripts has been extremely helpful in getting me to tell the stories that I have been wanting to share.
Eric Koester: https://erickoester.com/
Eric Koestler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erickoester/
Manuscripts: https://manuscripts.com/
âSuper Mentors: The Ordinary Personâs Guide to Asking Extraordinary People for Helpâ: https://www.amazon.com/Super-Mentors-Ordinary-Persons-Extraordinary/dp/B0B5Q6V6BB
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I donât know about you, but I find the cereal aisle to be a pretty wondrous place. Weâre all probably pretty used to it, but just imagine the cereal aisle from the perspective of a person who has never seen it before. Itâs a lot. I mean, how do you pick a cereal when you donât know what each of them has to offer.
Of course, this is where marketing comes in.
Marketing is that thing that tries to connect us with products, services, organizations, and every other matter of thing that is trying to get our attention. In the Attention Economy, thatâs a tall ask. The Attention Economy refers to how human attention is a scarce resource and can be traded for profit. The key point here is it is a âscarce resource,â and one that is only getting more scarce. As an educator, I know this very well. We only have so much attention to give, and there is more and more that is competing for it.
Marketers have a much harder job, but luckily for them they have more tools at their disposal to help. The trick is how to best use them.
Today's guest on Experience by Design is Lisa Cole, Chief Marketing, Product, and AI Officer (or CMPAIO) of the company 2X. She also is the author of the just released book The Limitless CMO). She also is the author of the books âBrand Gravityâ and âThe Revenue Ramp.â
We talk about how growing up she was the kid that always tried to take things apart to see how they worked. That translates very well to exploring how AI can be leveraged for marketing today, digging into it and seeing how it works in order to capitalize on its abilities in the Attention Economy.
We discuss how we need to spend more time learning than just doing, finding ways to do things differently than before if we want to stand out from the noise. Lisa highlights the importance of reimagining workflows and tasks before applying AI to optimize outcomes and prevent inaccuracies. Afterall, the product produced through the use of a tool is always dependent on the skill of the person using it.
Lisaâs new book shows how marketing leaders can overcome constraints through three key levers: running marketing like a business, leveraging outsource models, and adopting AI. We also discuss the relationship between sales and marketing, and how many companies continue to make it harder to buy when they finally get your attention.
Finally, Lisa shares how she used an AI-based tool to interview her on long drives to help her generate ideas for her book.
In this new era of attention competition, there is a lot to learn to make people aware of our presence, and this conversation is a great place to start no matter what you are marketing. Even cereal.
Lisa Cole: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisacole01/
2X Marketing: https://2x.marketing/
âThe Limitless CMOâ: https://www.amazon.com/Limitless-CMO-Transform-Order-Taking-Market-Making-ebook/dp/B0GSCXR8HM
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I have long taken an interest in, and even done research on, this idea of âlabor-saving technology.â Maybe it is because I had a front-row seat to a lot of the technological transformations that we now pretty much take for granted.
In ninth grade, I had a typing class on fully manual typewriters, the kind where the keys would jam and you had to whack the return bar. Good times. The next year, the school installed PCs for typing class. I also have lived through dot matrix printers, dial-up modems, floppy disks (the actual floppy kind), cable television arriving, cell phones becoming ubiquitous, and a whole host of other âadvancementsâ that promised to make my life easier and better.
I donât know about you, but Iâm not feeling it.
Making things more efficient doesnât mean the outputs are higher quality. Rather, they just become more frequent because the actual labor it takes to do an individual thing goes down. However, as nature abhors a vacuum, the reduced time it takes to do one thing is filled by doing other things. Sure it takes a shorter time to get an email than âsnail mail.â But imagine if we got as much snail mail as we do email. Only pop culture stars would get that amount of mail, and they have assistants to help them answer we. We have to answer our own emails!
What does it all mean? Iâm doing more and more, but does that mean Iâm more and more successful? I can be in contact with more people, but am I more connected? I can produce more, but am I more productive? I can access the most advanced health care in human history, but am I healthy? These are the contradictions of our time. We were promised one thing, but we are finding ourselves in another place. The present is not as advertised.
And Iâm still waiting for the flying cars I was promised growing up.
To tackle these deeper questions, I have Dr. Camille Preston on Experience by Design podcast. Dr. Preston received her PhD in Psychology at the University of Virginia, for which her work on policing domestic violence received the APA International Best Dissertation Award. That work led to a broader interest in trauma, grief, growth, and recovery.
Today as Founder and CEO of AIM Leadership, she is an executive coach to senior leaders in major companies, a well-traveled keynote speaker, faculty member, advisor, and author. Her works include three books, âLiving Real: Redefining Success, Presence, and Happiness,â âRewired: How to Work Smarter, Live Better, and Be Purposefully Productive in an Overwired World,â and âCreate More Flow: Igniting Peak Performance in an Overwired World.â
We talk about how there is a tendency to avoid difficult conversation and suppress trauma, which impacts all aspects of our lives (including being effective leaders). She discusses the challenges of building authentic connections in this technological era. As a result, organizations need to create places where people can build relationships through simple conversations and shared activities.
Camille talks about moving from the âInformation Ageâ and into the âWisdom Age,â where individual AI will disrupt traditional sources of power and expertise. Finally we discuss her work as a âBusiness Doula,â helping individuals and organizations navigate transitions and giving birth to new possibilities. After all, times of uncertainty create tremendous potential for growth. All we have to do is to start embracing the âwoo.â
Dr. Camille Preston: https://www.camillepreston.com/
Camille Preston LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camillepreston/
âRewired: How to Work Smarter, Live Better, and Be Purposefully Productive in an Overwired Worldâ: https://www.amazon.com/Rewired-Smarter-Purposefully-Productive-Overwired/dp/0984904107
âLiving Real: Redefining Success, Presence, and Happinessâ: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F7T38495
âCreate More Flow: Igniting Peak Performance in an Overwired Worldâ:
https://www.amazon.com/Create-More-Flow-Performance-Overwired/dp/0984904115
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It was quite the weekend for Nordic skiing in the United States. The World Cup visited Lake Placid, NY, and I was there along with 14,000 plus other spectators to take it all in. We saw some of the biggest names in cross-country skiing take to the line and race in the snow and even in the rain. As an avid Nordic skier, it was awesome to see it all happen in a location that I have skied (although at much slower speeds).
One of the main attractions was the retirement of Jessie Diggins, the greatest Nordic athlete ever to come out of the United States. Her legacy however goes well beyond the Olympic medals and world championships. When she talks about her career and her impact, she focuses much more on the culture she helped to create on the US Nordic ski team, and the larger impact on youth skiing.
One of her trademarks is wearing glitter on her cheeks during her races. At the event, hundreds (if not thousands) of people were also wearing glitter. While perhaps a small symbol to some outside of this culture, it speaks to how the outcome of the race is not the only thing. Rather, it is the joy of participating in a community with others who share the passion you all have for this activity.
On her legacy, she said the following:
âI think the team is going to be just fine without me,â Diggins said. âAnd I feel like thatâs how I know I did my job. Thereâs so much leadership coming from so many people, because this team is filled with individuals who have put their heart and their energy into the team and who spend time thinking about, How can I make this team better? Not just what can I get and how can the team help me, but how can I make sure that we succeed? And I think that is why we succeed.â
On the point of leadership, I welcome Dalmo Cirne to Experience by Design podcast. Dalmo wrote the book âThe 4 Streams of Leadership: Transform Yourself into an Overachiever Manager.â In this book, he talks about how being in a position of leadership doesnât prepare you for being a leader. People often are promoted into leadership positions because of their technical competence, but that doesnât translate into effective leadership.
We talk about the overtaxing of middle management when placed into this position, and how it impacts those who are reporting to them. We discuss the concept of leadership and the importance of understanding and managing different streams in an organization, including downstream (team and projects), upstream (communication with upper management), and sidestream (interactions with peers in other departments).
Dalmo examines the nature of leadership, agreeing that while organizational hierarchy is necessary for making difficult decisions, true leadership is demonstrated through actions and behaviors rather than just position
Dalmo highlights the significance of understanding one's own motivations for seeking leadership roles, contrasting those who are naturally drawn to leadership with those who seek it for external recognition or financial gain.
Finally, we have some conversation about the properties of snow, including heavy and wet New England snow versus light and fluffy Colorado snow. And what better time to talk about snow and leadership than with the retirement of Jessie Diggins and the emergence of the next generation of Nordic leadership for US cross-country skiing!
Dalmo Cirne: https://dalmocirne.com/
Dalmo Cirne LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dalmocirne/
âThe 4 Streams of Leadershipâ: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1510785183
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Well we did it, folks! Experience by Design podcast has hit 25,000 downloads. I donât know what all that means in real terms other than a lot of you like to listen to this on a regular basis. First, thatâs a testament to the great guests who spend their time talking with me about their lives and their work. Second, it is a testament to you for being interested in these stories and the field of experience design. Third, I guess it is a testament to me, even though I donât feel comfortable giving myself credit.
So thank you for 25,000 downloads. And I promise more great guests for the next year.
We have had a run of great episodes on employee experience, and it is one of my favorite topics to explore in experience design. In discussions of workplaces, the framing typically is either around the workers (at the bottom of the org chart) or the leadership (at the top of the org chart). When people talk about organizational change, it is framed as either âtop-downâ or âbottom-upâ. These formulations leave something important out: the middle.
In many ways, middle management often goes unresourced, underappreciated, and stressed. But it also is where things need to get done, and ultimate strategic success can depend.
My guest today on Experience by Design is the author of the book âThe Elevated Leaderâ who talks about âthe messy middleâ in organizations. Laurie Maddalena is first notable characteristic is that sociology was her favorite class. Along with that topic, we explore the challenges of having five generations in the workplace right now, and what that means for management and leadership.
She talks about the Six Saboteurs in the workplace, which she lays out in her book and consulting. We explore how there are no âhard skillsâ or âsoft skillsâ, but rather just essential skills. The key goal is to create environments where people can do and become their best.
Laurie provides practical leadership tools with training that gives actionable tips rather than vague statements. She stresses the need for career paths besides leadership. We explore the evolution of human resources into being a strategic partner that are shaping the culture of the workplace.
Finally, we talk about while conflict is natural and necessary for team growth, the key is managing it constructively rather than avoiding it. Laurie also offers a free assessment tool to help leaders identify and overcome their specific saboteurs.
Laurie Maddalena: https://www.lauriemaddalena.com/
Laurie Maddalena LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauriemaddalena/
âThe Elevated Leaderâ: https://www.lauriemaddalena.com/elevated-leader-book
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You probably know that there are a lot of podcasts out there to listen to. By one estimate, as of January 2026 there are 4.58 million podcasts. Thatâs a lot of people churning out content that runs the gamut of topics and guests. If you look at the podcast stats, you also will see that nearly one-third of podcasts are 20-40 minutes in length.
Which makes Experience by Design stand out in a somewhat unique way in terms of the length of my conversation with guests. Only about 15% of podcasts last an hour or more.
So why go for an hour when most podcasters go for a much shorter length? Stories.
Part of my goal here at ExD is to hear the stories that people have to offer, to learn about the people behind the products and offerings. I like to think about it like âHumans of Experience Design.â As an ethnographer, I like to hear peopleâs stories. Iâve also found that people like sharing their stories. In many ways, the manner in which we share stories is what makes us human, or more human.
My guest today knows all about telling stories. Bill Blankschaen is here to talk about his book âYour Story Advantage: A Proven Path to Maximize Your Impact, Influence, and Income.â
Billâs background has roots in his study of English and History, both of which are rich in stories. He then found himself leading a private school. While rewarding, he felt a calling for something more, and that was to help people tell their stories. This led to his company StoryBuilders, âa creative team of storytellers who are passionate about serving people with excellence in genuine, high-trust relationships.â Bill and StoryBuilders provide coaching, assistance with writing, getting it ready for launch, and getting it in front of your audience. They have worked with a range of business leaders, political figures, cultural influencers, and many more, helping to tell their stories and get their message out. Bill also is a multiple New York Times and USA Today bestselling writer and business founder.
Bill and I talk about the path to finding purpose in life by engaging in your passion. We explore writing as a journey of exploration rather than just a final product. Bill relates about working with people who have a clear vision on what they want to do, as well as those who just have the desire to tell a story but not quite sure how. We also talk about the emergent area of hybrid publishing. While self-publishing has become more accessible, itâs still important to ensure quality and align publishing strategies with the authorâs goals. He also emphasizes StoryBuilderâs approach to customize the publishing approach to each authorâs needs.
Finally, Bill talks about the role that AI is starting to play in the writing and publishing process, and how it should compliment creativity rather than replace it.
StoryBuilders, LLC: https://mystorybuilders.com
Bill Blankschaen LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billblankschaen/
âYour Story Advantage: A Proven Path to Maximize Your Impact, Influence, and Incomeâ: https://www.amazon.com/Your-Story-Advantage-Maximize-Influence/dp/1954521901
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Once again, we are living in a time of military conflict. It seems like it is something that is inescapable, which is enough to make one who wishes for better to lose hope that it is possible. It can start to feel pretty overwhelming given the amount of suffering that continues to go on without reprieve.
This once again introduces the central importance of dispute and conflict resolution in our lives. It also emphasizes the importance of those who have the skills to help us navigate conflicts and dispute in order to come to some kind of outcome that is fair and equitable.
In this episode of Experience by Design, Iâm fortunate to have Colin Rule, CEO of ODR.com, with ODR standing for online dispute resolution. Colin is the author of the book âOnline Dispute Resolution for Business.â He also was the Director of Online Dispute Resolution, meaning that he has seen more conflict than the most experienced global negotiator. Colin shared insights from his experience at eBay, where they managed 60 million disputes annually across 54 countries, emphasizing the need for a fast and fair resolution system to maintain trust in online marketplaces.
We talk about his early stage appearance as Tevye in âFiddler on the Roofâ in high school, and his involvement in the debate team. He describes how debate influenced his desire to form authentic and genuine belief in his arguments. Colin explains how his interest in peace studies developed through mediation training and his understanding of conflict resolution as a form of peacemaking.
Colin shares personal experiences where empathetic listening resolved a long-standing dispute, highlighting the value of authentic apologies and understanding. We also discuss the concept of fairness and justice, especially in an era of artificial intelligence. Colin suggests that AI has transformed the landscape of dispute resolution, and while this change is irreversible, it presents new challenges and opportunities for the field.
In a time of needing greater dispute resolution to end conflict, it is a great moment to hear from Colinâs work in creating dispute resolution experiences.
Colin Rule: https://www.colinrule.com/
Colin Rule LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/crule
âOnline Dispute Resolution for Businessâ: https://www.amazon.com/Online-Dispute-Resolution-Business-Employment/dp/0787957313
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The 2026 Winter Olympics are now over, and it was great to watch. As always, there are a lot of compelling stories that happened. There are stories of triumph and disappointment, as it goes with sports. It is hard to imagine putting so many years of your life into something to have it all turn on minutes or seconds.
There were a lot of athletes that were projected to win gold, including Jessie Diggins who is the greatest US cross-country skier ever. However, no US woman or man has ever won a cross-country skiing gold, so there were a lot of hopes that this would be the year. But that didnât come to pass. The men were able to secure two silver medals, and Jessie Diggins won a bronze. To add to this, Jessie Diggins is retiring at the end of this season, marking the end of a remarkable career.
So was it a disappointment? Depends on how you measure it. By one metric of success, she failed to achieve the top goal of winning a race and taking home the gold. But other measures, according to Jessie, she did all she could, left it all out there, and represented herself, her friends and family, and her country well. The same could be said for a lot of athletes who âfailedâ to live up to expectations, but nonetheless did what they could to succeed.
In a culture where second place might be referred to as âfirst loser,â coming back with less than complete victory is a high standard. And maybe it is time for that standard to change, and the culture around metrics to shift.
To talk about the impact of measuring what matters, and more broadly the need for changes in organizational culture and employee experience, I welcome Dr. James Killian to Experience by Design podcast. This is the second Industrial/Organizational Psychologist in two weeks, so that might be a record for any podcast.
James has a new book coming out titled âObsessed: Cultivating the Customer-Driven Leader.â The book describes how to develop customer-focused leadership habits, establish employee-centric cultures, create linkages between employee and customer experience, and establish metrics that really matter to your strategy.
James explains his entry into the field after discovering it during an introductory psychology class at Texas A&M, describing his interest in combining business and psychology. We also talk about his experiences in industry as well as working in the Michigan State University Customer Experience Management Masters program. Finally, there is the familiar theme about needing to create better connections between industry and academia.
Dr. James Killian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-killian-ph-d-859182/
âObsessed:Cultivating the Customer-Driven Leaderâ: https://the-customer-driven-leader.com/
Pre-order now!: https://books.manuscripts.com/product/obsessed/
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