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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jill Anderson and Dr. Jon Eckert engage in conversation about the profound impact of educators and the importance of recognizing their contributions. Jon tells us inspiring anecdotes of teachers who have made a lasting difference in students' lives, reflecting on the transformative power of kindness and support in education. Jon recounts a personal experience from his own schooling, to emphasize the enduring influence of a compassionate teacher. They explore the crucial role of validation and collaboration between educators and parents in nurturing children's well-being and development. While acknowledging the challenges educators face, such as burnout and high expectations, they also highlight the resilience and hope inherent in the teaching profession. The dialogue focuses on the significance of prioritizing joy, growth, and meaningful connections in education, beyond mere academic success. Ultimately, the conversation stands as a heartfelt tribute to educators, celebrating their tireless dedication and profound impact on shaping young lives.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcslMentioned:The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan HaidtBad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up by Abigail Shrier Transcription:Jill:Hi, my name is Jill Anderson and I'm the director of the Center for School Leadership. Jon is with me here, and we're going to flip the script today, and I will be asking the questions. Jon has heard and experienced so many incredible stories from educators across the world. And so to celebrate the Teacher Appreciation Week, we wanted to share some of those stories to encourage and to inspire the good work that each of the educators out there are doing to help each student flourish. So we'll go ahead and get started with the first question. Can you share a story or two of an inspiring teacher?Jon:Yeah. So as we always talk about, we have the best job in education because this is what we do. We just go all over the world and find good things that are happening and try to highlight those, elevate those, and spread those ideas. And they're always built around human beings. And so these stories of cool things happening, I have a ton of those and we'll share them throughout the episode today. But I have to go all the way back to my first grade because that's now I guess about 43 years ago, that would be, that I was in first grade, and this is still as memorable as something that happened yesterday to me. And that's where the power of an educator comes in into the life of a student, where that educator comes alongside and helps that kid become more of who they're created to be. So this happened.The first part of it, it's not such a great teaching example, the second part is good, so stick with me. So I'm in art class. I love art. It's one of my favorite parts of the day. We're getting ready for Halloween, so we're making witches and so we're having to cut out the circle part of the head. And Mrs. Fleshy, the art teacher who've been doing it for quite a while and was a little grumpy, but she's been managing elementary kids in art for probably 30 years, so that could wear anybody down. But she's going around and passing out the scissors. And I don't know if people that are listening, if you're old enough to remember this, but left-handed scissors were always green-handled scissors. And so I knew I was left-handed, but I'd also been diagnosed with dyslexia. And so I had a really hard time knowing which hand was which. I had a hard time reversing words, you could put was and saw on top of each other.And I knew they were different, I couldn't tell you how. Six and nine, B and D they felt like they were invented by Satan just to confuse me. And so I get the scissors and she's watching me because I think she didn't believe I was left-handed. And I put them on my right hand. She's like, she snatched them from me. She's like, "Oh, you're not left-handed." And she gave me the silver-handled scissors.Jill:So sad.Jon:And I was like, "Ah, but I..." And she's moved on to the next person. And so then we're trying to cut out these circles. And if you remember the old scissors at least, if you had them on the wrong hand they did not cut. And so I'm sitting there so frustrated because I cannot get the scissors to cut the paper with my right hand, which I know I'm supposed to have on my right hand and I can't cut with my right. So I try on my left and then they really don't work. And so I start to cry because I'm that frustrated. And Mrs. Fleshy from the front of the room, she says to me, and I can still hear her, I can still smell her too actually, "Jon, if you're going to be disruptive, you need to just get out of class." I'm like, oh. So I go out of the class, I sit in the hallway and just tears are pouring down. And fifth graders are walking by me and sixth graders, and I'm just completely mortified but I can't stop.My first grade teacher, Ms. Thayer comes walking by and she's also been teaching for 30 years. I always say the best teachers in a building and the worst teachers in the building are typically the most veteran teachers, because they're either amazing and they have all that expertise or they're kind of just waiting for retirement. So you have that. So Ms. Thayer comes by and she sees me and she grabs me by my hand. And she takes me back to the room and we sit knee-to-knee in those little first grade chairs. And she asked me to tell her what happened. And so through those halting sobby breaths, I get out what happened? And she just looks at me and she says, "Mrs. Frischi shouldn't have done that to you." And then she gives me this big hug. And from then on I would run through a wall for that woman.And 43 years later, I still get chills thinking about the way she saw me, knew me and loved me in that moment just by breaking adult code saying, "Hey, that was wrong. And I know you weren't trying to be disruptive." And she gave me that hug and I was like, "Hey, I am forever loyal to you, Mrs. Thayer." So many other stories we see all around the world but I just thought I'd start with that one, because I don't think I've ever told that story very publicly. And so I was like, hey, Ms. Thayer needs to get honored wherever she's at now. I'm sure she's up in heaven at this point listening to this podcast.Jill:Yeah, I definitely had not heard that story, but that's such an amazing story to share it because of the validation, it's all it took. It was just to sit at your level and understand what you were going through and that was it. So it's not very hard to do, but it takes some time and thought to say, "Okay, I need to take a minute and see what this kid's going through."Jon:Exactly.Jill:So how can we celebrate teachers?Jon:So I think at the center, you're the director. It's great by the way having somebody else ask the questions because that's usually my role. So thank you for doing that. I think what we do is we just keep elevating the good work that's happening all over the place. There are amazing things happening that we see in the US. I've been to Australia, to England, I go to New Zealand this summer, and we're seeing amazing things happening with educators in public schools and private schools. And so just honoring the work of the profession and taking the time to listen and observe. I'll give you two quick examples where there's this reinforcing cycle of this relational component. That's where the hope always is, is in relationship. Teaching's one of the most human things we do. And so, I was in South Carolina last year. I was in a rural school and was in an early childhood classroom for at-risk kids and walked into this room and in the corner there's this tiny little wheelchair, which there's not much more depressing than a tiny wheelchair.And then a little guy who's less than 30 pounds laying on this mat, and he was just recovering from a seizure. And so he was really exhausted. He's trying to make eye contact with this teacher and he's making this noise. He's not verbal and he's making this noise, and you can tell he just wants the teacher's attention. And she's working with a small group of kids in the other corner. And she notices and she goes over and she just scoops him up, gives him a big hug, his head is on her shoulder and he's looking at me and he is so happy. And so the teacher just kind of offhandedly looks at me and she said, "Hey, sometimes we just need some snuggles." And that kid in that moment was seen, known and loved in that really simple way. And so I've given you a first grade example. I've given you an early childhood example.I want to jump ahead to validating what a high school teacher did. So she's got seniors, I'm not sure, I think she was either an English or a history teacher. And she was sharing this story at one of our professional learning sessions that we were doing last year. And she was recounting the fact that the office had called down to her room to let her know that her father had fallen and had a brain bleed they thought. And she needed to get to him as soon as possible. And so her students that were with her, they heard this because it came through. And before they would let her go, they all got around her and put hands on her and prayed for her before they would let her leave to go be with her father.Jill:That's so amazing.Jon:So that loving relationship, that part that we do it's not just a one way street. That comes back to us. It's not why we love kids so that they will love us back and it's not our job to be their friends, but when we see them, know them and love them, that gets reciprocated for us in a way that's just truly life-giving. So I think anytime we can find those life-giving things and lean into those and then elevate those to let people know all the amazing things that are happening in schools. We hear all the negative stuff because media has a negativity bias to it. But there are amazing things happening in classrooms all over the place. And so how do we see those relationships and the way kids are becoming more of who they're created to be because of the work that's going on in the classroom?Jill:Yeah, absolutely. Those are great stories to be able to share. So on that note, how do we bring more joy to the profession?Jon:So I think part of it is celebrating the right things. So when we think about joy or wellbeing or flourishing, sometimes people think of that as meaning freedom from struggle. And that's not what it is. To me, joy isn't circumstantial. Joy is in this deep abiding hope that there is more. And that joy isn't freedom from struggle but it's the freedom to struggle well. So how do we help educators see what they're doing in the lives of students that allows them to have the energy and fuel to do more? What does that look like for them? And then how do we celebrate that, because I think we've oversold wellbeing over the last few years that like, "Okay, that's really hard for you. You don't have to do that right now." And when we do that, that robs kids of the joy that comes from doing something that they didn't think they could do. And then they do it and they do it well, and there's great joy in that. So if we rob kids the opportunity to struggle, we also rob them of the opportunity to have joy.And so if we think about happiness as being something that we want kids to always feel happy, they're not going to grow very much. And we know all the way back to Vygotsky's own approximate development, the distance between what you can do on your own and what you can do with assistants where you push and stretch is where learning is. So learning is productive struggle. So how do we build that in without making it be a burnout thing? And we don't avoid burnout by getting Jeans day on Friday. That's nice. But where we really find meaning and joy is in celebrating the growth that we see. So if you want an educator to stay in education, help them see what's happening in my view as a Christian that the Lord is doing through them in the lives of a student. That's what gets you up in the morning, how do we keep seeing that and keep building on that.Jill:Absolutely. So you've talked a lot about using the phrase just a teacher. Can you talk a little bit about that, how we avoid using it as just a teacher and how we can switch that around to just teaching?Jon:Yeah. So the book Just Teaching, Feedback, Inclusion and Well-being for Each Student, plays on that phrase that, oh, I'm just a teacher, or, oh, they're just a teacher. And as educators we 100% have to stop referring to ourselves as just a teacher. Education is the profession that makes all others possible. There is great power in that role, and everyone has experienced this. If they've had a good teacher or their child has had a good teacher, the difference that makes. There is huge power in that. And we steal ourselves, we rob ourselves of that when we refer to ourselves as just a teacher. And so when we talk about just teachers, we're talking about teachers that teach for justice and flourishing by making sure each kid is seen, known and loved. And you do that by making sure they're well, that they're engaged and they get feedback. That we give them the opportunity to stretch.It's not to work ourselves into oblivion. It's not just continuing to add more and more to our plates. I think in some places burnout has become a badge of honor and educators think everything requires the extra mile. That's not it. How do we put the work on students that allows them to do the work that will allow them to flourish? And we take the work that's ours, but our job is to coach them through that, not do it for them.Jill:Exactly. Yeah, and even as a parent, I'm not a teacher, I haven't been a teacher, but as a parent I can see that in my own kids. And it's so hard to watch them go through that struggle, but once they get to the other side you're like, okay, this is a good thing that I did to help them grow in that area.Jon:Yeah. Well, we all know nobody wants to be stretched. It's no fun to be, but we all appreciate the benefit of the stretching on the back end.Jill:Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of being a parent, how as a parent can we support teachers in the best way?Jon:Well, I think we need to view our role as teachers, I'll start there, as being a partner of the parent and helping that kid flourish because regardless, in my view there are parents that do bad things for kids. But no parent wants to do things that harm their kid. They care about that kid more than anything else on earth. And sometimes as a teacher you sometimes scratch your head, well, I don't know why we're doing that. And parent-teacher conferences are always this eye-opening moment of, I can't believe that kid gets to school every day because of some of the stuff that goes on. But 95% of parents want what's best for kids. And I would say teachers are there too, nobody really goes into teaching because they want to harm kids. That's not a thing. So if we can keep our child the focus of the interaction and not get on the defensive as teachers or parents about hey...Because it's sometimes hard, especially if parents didn't have great experiences in schools, it's hard for them to come back into school and hear feedback that feels critical because it feels like they're being judged as a parent. And nobody wants to be judged or evaluated, we all want to get better. So how do we make getting better for the kid be our joint mission as parents and educators? And I think I'll go back to the joy piece, if we want our kids to experience joy and be the kind of human beings we want them to be, then we have to give them opportunity to struggle well. How can they stretch? And so that's where parents and educators can be great partners in that, what's the extracurricular activity that you need to really shine? You're not great in math, great, work harder at math. You can't just not do that. You're going go-Jill:Not do it, yeah.Jon:But then, oh, you really love art. Well, lean into art. What can you do there? You don't do art instead of math. You want to be a well-rounded human being that does it. The other thing I would encourage parents to do and this'll come into, I think you'll probably ask me for a book recommendation at some point, but as you think about who your kid's becoming, don't try to parent and engineer all of the pain out of their lives. You can't do it.Jill:That's good.Jon:You can't do it. And so how do you put those guardrails on where they know you're safe, they know that they are loved and nothing they do will change that love. However, some things they do may change how much they please you. So it's not like everything you do is fine. We just love you. You're all great. No, you can make some bad decisions that I am not going to be pleased about and I'm going to tell you. And here is wisdom from an adult who's been through all these things too, and here are some thoughts. And so the one place when I said that I was like, we really have to be smart with smartphones and social media. That is an introduced thing that didn't affect us as parents, and I'm so grateful I didn't have it. That world that's introduced there, the more as parents we can partner with schools to figure out the best ways to use technology. And how to create some freedom from it because it is oppressive. And no matter how much we think we're training them how to use it, adults aren't good at using their smartphones.Jill:I definitely am not either. I have to use the focus feature to be able to avoid it when I'm trying to do work.Jon:Right. If you've caught yourself, and I know I've done it when you and I have been talking, if you catch yourself talking to someone who's an embodied human being right in front of you and you get a buzz on your phone and you're paying attention to that, what are we doing? We're saying that's more important than this human being. So if adults are doing that, we really need to think through what that's like for people with underdeveloped frontal cortexes that allow them to discipline themselves with it. And so I think we really need to be thoughtful about that as parents, how can we do that in a way that allow our kids to really enjoy being with each other and figure out how to navigate life with other people?Jill:Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about book recommendations. I feel like you're leading into Anxious Generation. Is that the one that you were going to talk about?Jon:Well, we've been talking about... I just read that book last week by Jonathan Haidt, and I've been citing his article in the Atlantic from last summer about schools should ban smartphones, like hard stop ban smartphones. He also has the recommendation that anybody under the age that's not in high school should not have a smartphone, flip phones. Other ways to communicate fine, but no smartphones till high school and no social media until you're 16. And it's really hard to disagree with that. From what I've seen, I feel like kids are so much freer when they have that. And he gives an example in his book about his six-year-old daughter who's on her iPad, and she can't figure out what's going on that there are engineers in a multi-billion dollar industry whose job is to keep her paying attention to the iPad no matter what, because the kid is the product. That's what they're selling to advertisers, that's what they're selling. And she says to her dad, "Dad, can you take this away from me? I can't get my eyes off of it."Jill:Wow, that's really powerful.Jon:Yeah, and so I think that's really where we're. So The Anxious Generation, he has a lot of reasons why we're anxious. It's not just smartphone's bad, it's smartphones disrupt and stunt development for kids because we're not having the human interactions, everything's mediated through social media which is not real. So instead of looking, when I grew up in the '70s and '80s, especially for girls, you walk by the checkout at the grocery store and you see these models that are airbrushed and they look perfect and all this. Now, girls go on and they see that and these are their competition at school, and it's not real but it feels real. And so they curate their lives to look like something they're not, which just breeds all kinds of anxiety because it's not an embodied interaction. They're saying, "Oh yeah, I know that person. That person's like this. They're not like they're real or what it looks like on Instagram." So it's devastating. And then for boys, it's less the social media, it's more the gaming and the pornography that kids are finding at ages 10 and 11 where it's just wide open for them.Jill:So young, yeah.Jon:And again, there are features that are meant to try to limit it but if you can put in a fake birthday, you can get to just about anything. And so there's a lot of responsibility in technology, but I don't see them making a change because the incentives aren't there for them to change. I think as parents, we have to be the parents and say, "Hey, collectively, we're not going to do this." Because if you're the only parent doing it, that's really hard. And in the book, he suggests that get 10 families together that are going to commit to this, that we're not going to jump on this boat of social media, early smartphones all the time. And I think as schools, we have to make the hard decision to say, "Hey, for eight hours a day we're giving you a break from these" and not just don't have them out, because that becomes really hard to enforce in schools.It's these get turned into a pouch that's locked for the day, or these go into a smartphone locker for the day and then you get them at the end of the day. And parents, I would just encourage you to support your schools if they do that. A lot of parents are fighting it because you want immediate access to your kids. You have it, call the office. There are adults charged with taking care of your kid. Trust them to do that. If you trust them for eight hours a day, you can trust them to get an important message to your kid.Jill:Right. I've seen the attitude change just with my own kids. I have an 11-year-old, and so she recently got in trouble and got her phone taken away for a week. And she was an amazing kid. She's creative, she was drawing, she was involved in conversations, engaging, and then she got her phone back and we're like, Where did Bella go? Look, we haven't seen her." So it totally changes who they are. So yeah, I've seen it myself. So what advice would you give educators out there?Jon:So you've already picked up on some of it, so I'll just try to sum it up into a sound bite. Lean into joy, but don't think of joy as being lacking struggle. Where are you seeing growth in yourself as an educator? Where are you seeing growth in your classroom? Lean into that, celebrate that, that's where joy is. And so even when you talk about smartphones, it's not banning something. It's inviting kids into deeper engagement, into that human... When kids get to a camp and they don't have phones for a week and they get to try new things and get to be with other people like, oh, this is great. It's like the veil has come off, the haze that they're in is gone. It's like, oh, they look around there's this amazing world and these amazing people. And so I think we need the same thing for our classrooms. We need to lean into really why we got into teaching in the first place, and that's to help other people grow and become more of who they're created to be.Jill:Yeah, absolutely. So on the flip side, what would be the worst advice that you've heard?Jon:This is hard to say. I got an article out called The Wellbeing Myth, and I think we have oversold wellbeing. And I think it's bad advice to say that kids can't learn if you don't make sure everything's okay. I think we need to focus less on some of those, even the SEL stuff, social emotional learning pieces have been oversold. It's like do hard things together, that works. There was another line, this again goes back to Haidt's book, it maybe Haidt's book or it may be Bad Therapy. I've got two books now coming together in my head. But that parents, adults, or whatever, can help kids learn how to make friends. The way you learn how to make friends is you try to make friends. And it's great to have somebody that you can talk to, "Hey, I tried this and this didn't work very well and whatever." But there's not a recipe for making friends. Okay, be kind, do unto others as you want them doing to you. There's some basic principles. But you know how kids learn those? By trying to do it.So I think teachers and parents, I think sometimes we need to step back a little bit and let kids play more and try stuff more. The average kid in elementary school in the US right now gets 27 minutes a day of recess. That is tragic. That was the height of my day. I would go home with my basketball and kickball stats every day for my three recesses. I look back and I was like, recess was the greatest thing ever. And I might've learned more at recess than I did in the classroom about how to interact with human beings. So like, hey, step back. Give them some space. That's wellbeing. So worry more about the virtual world and worry less about the real world. Let the kids... Haidt has this great line, let them get bruises, not scars.Jill:I love that. That's really great. So what would you say is one of the biggest challenges that you see for educators in the year ahead?Jon:We have a really hard job as educators because so much is expected of educators. Every policy decision, every government action is like, we'll do this through schools because there are schools in every community. So more and more it gets layered on top of educators all the time. And it makes sense from a policy perspective. It's like you have a beach head into every neighborhood, but educators can't do everything. And when we try, we don't do any of it very well and we end up burned out. And so we are seeing amazing educators leave the profession and other people not wanting to go into the profession because teachers aren't making education look like a very appealing job, even though it's the greatest job ever. It doesn't look like that to students. And so that's a challenge and it's a vicious cycle that's continuing. So much is asked, I burn out, it doesn't look like an appealing profession and that's a challenge.Jill:Absolutely. So I want to end on a positive note, what's the thing that makes you the most optimistic as you look ahead?Jon:So our whole deal at the center is to focus on adaptive challenges and improvement that we can make. And so these are short cycle data collections, what can you do in 90 days that makes a difference for kids? And we're seeing teams of educators in schools literally all over the world, we're in 45 plus countries and all 50 states. And we're seeing people make improvement. Now, I don't like talking about solutions because I think solutions are often too pat and too oversimplified where improvement is, well, if you've got a dumpster fire, put the fire out first. You're not building the Taj Mahal while the fire is burning. So it's how do we make those gains and then that builds momentum, especially when you see teachers and students doing together. So I'll end with this really encouraging note that I saw last week. Well, I'll give you a specific example of something that just was super inspiring to me and then a system example. Is that okay?Jill:Okay. Yeah, that sounds great.Jon:All right. So the system example was in South Carolina, we've been working with these schools that are doing collective leadership all over the state for eight years. I'm the program evaluator and researcher so I've been studying this high school, Blythewood High School. And this year when they had their showcase of the progress they've made each year, they brought the students to do it. So I was in a session where juniors and seniors in high school were talking about the collective leadership of their educators, and the way that was affecting their system as students. And the way they were leading alongside educators. I was like, Oh-Jill:That's really cool.Jon:This is the dream. The kids own it. It's not buy-in, they own it. The other story I'll give, and this was maybe my favorite classroom visit from the last year where this makes me optimistic. Brad Livingstone, who's our first gent, he's the husband of our president, Linda Livingstone and I was in his history classroom. And he's an amazing history teacher. He teaches World War II history and Vietnam War history at a local school. And the teaching's amazing, I was there for the Do-little raids. It was amazing World War II, so I enjoyed that. But at the beginning of the class, he's having students report out how many veterans they thanked the past week. So every Monday morning they report in how many veterans they thanked for what they did. And he got them doing this, and he's done this for years in all the different schools he's been in. He drives a van full of them to HEB in the middle of the day at the beginning of the semester.And he said, "Go out and find people that are my age or older and ask them if they served in the military. And if they do, introduce yourself, thank them for their service."Jill:That's awesome.Jon:And so they go out in teams and do that, and then he's like, "Now it's on you. You got to do this." And you got to get 50 this semester. And if you get 50, the goal is to get 1000 thank-yous in the course of the semester. That fundamentally changes the community. It doesn't just change the classroom. It doesn't just change the kids, that changes the community. Once you get to 50, you get a vial of sand from Normandy that he's collected. The kid who has the most thank-yous in a semester gets a vial of sand from Iwo Jima, which is in his way of saying it is the most difficult soil to get in the world because the only way you're allowed to go to Iwo Jima is if you are connected to Japan or you're a military liaison to Japan for the United States. That's the only way you get on that island. And so a veteran brought him back some sand from Iwo Jima. So one kid each semester gets that sand.And I'm sitting in there and this kid has thanked 75 veterans that past week. I was like, "How did you do it?" And he said, "Well, I go to football games and I watch for how people stand up and salute the flag during the national anthem. And then I go find them." I was like-Jill:That's awesome.Jon:...how amazing is that? So those kinds of small changes are the kinds of things that change our community in a society that feels like it's super broken and polarized, that changes people. And so that's the hope.Jill:That is such a cool story. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing all the other stories, and I really hope that it was an encouragement to all the educators out there. We are so grateful for the work that you do on a daily basis and making a difference in the lives of each student.Jon:Yeah, thanks for all you do, Jill. It's great. We have a great job.Jill:Yeah, we do.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, host Jon Eckert interviews Krystle Moos, an award-winning science teacher known for her innovative and engaging teaching methods. The discussion revolves around Krystle's approach to creating a dynamic learning environment that fosters curiosity, belonging, and genuine learning experiences for her students. Krystle emphasizes the importance of addressing distractions and creating a sense of belonging in the classroom, regardless of the evolving landscape of technology. She shares her strategy of making science hands-on and exploratory, moving away from traditional labs towards phenomenon-based learning to spark wonder and curiosity in her students.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcslMentioned:Limitless Mind: Learn, Lead, and Live Without Barriers by Jo Boaler
Transcription:
Jon Eckert:
Welcome back to the Just Schools Podcast. We're really excited today because in our podcast studio/my office, we have the award-winning amazing science teacher, Krystle Moos. A huge blessing to be able to work with her through our master's program. She's also a local educator that's impacted many, many kids' lives over the last several years. So, Krystle, thank you for being here first of all.
Krystle Moos:
Oh, it's honestly an honor and a joy to share education and our experiences with everybody we can.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Oh, and I should mention you're also... My kids got to pick one teacher that they dedicated the book just teaching to, and so one of my daughters picked Ms. Moos as her most just teacher. So teacher that leads to justice and flourishing, not just a teacher, but the most impactful teacher that she had. So she had selected Ms. Moos. And now my other daughter is getting the benefit from Ms. Moos as well. So I think this is the first educator that I've been able to interview that's taught my own children. So you can feel free to share any shortcomings as a parent that I have that you see through my children. But really, what I want to talk to you today about is you've been teaching for a while, and you've won these awards and these accolades for being a great teacher, which are well deserved. But I'm curious, what do you see that's different about kids today than when you first started teaching?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah, I don't think there's much that's different, honestly. They have different distractions. And so I started my first five years at Waco ISD. It was a title one school, and their distractions were very different than when I moved to Midway ISD. It's more of a suburban school. They didn't have as many phones back then. Not everybody had a phone. We weren't assigning digital assignments when I first went to Midway, but they still had other distractions.
I had distractions when I was a student. It was writing notes and finding cute ways to fold them and sneak them along, and we still... I would leave and go to the library to write a paper. And so, I think they're the same. They're still distracted. They still have the same fundamental belonging in the classroom. And when we look at students and we look at what they're facing, and I do think they're facing more, everything's just way more visible in their life and way more connected, which can be really distracting. But then I think about sitting in my course, three math class, and writing notes to my friends and folding them, and I definitely was not engaged.
I think that sense of belonging in any classes where that teacher really made me feel like things were meaningful, they really cared about what I was doing, and what I was learning, and where I was going really were the most impactful classrooms that helped me center. And so, whether it was 17 years ago when I started or today before I get to the content, you have to get to the belonging and why we're doing things, and then the distractions fade away.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I like that you went back to the part that makes us human, which we all have this desire to belong. We want to be seen and known by other people, and that's an innate need. I think that's true. I think the distraction is also true, depending on how engaged we are in the classroom. We're looking for distraction. I think the challenge that I see is I don't think kids are different. I would agree, and I hope that's an encouragement to educators today that the kids aren't different. I do think the ability to distract them has increased significantly because we didn't walk around in our pocket with this device that engineers are paying billions of dollars to turn us as kids into the product. Their attention is that we didn't have that. You had the paper and pencil and the pen and the origami folding, which you could distract yourself, but nobody's being paid to distract you.
Krystle Moos:
Yeah. And I think that is something that we battle in my classroom. I make you grab your phone and show me it on days where I notice that things are going to be a little bit harder and I need them all in. I'll say, "Grab your phone. If you're not reaching in your bag, you're doing something wrong. Get your phone in your bag." When I walked in here today, I took my watch off. And so I think it's training people on when it's appropriate to use devices and when we need to put it away and really focus on what we're learning on each other, so that way the experience is more meaningful.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I think in your classroom... Again, as a middle school science teacher, I never rose to the level of high school teacher, but I was a middle school science teacher. What I loved about middle school science is it's hands-on. You're doing things. You're experimenting. You're demonstrating. You're seeing how this works, and you did it this way this time, and now you do it this other way, this other time, and what's different, and you're recording it, and you're observing. And so it's designed to capture your attention. It requires your attention. So talk about some of the ways you make science come alive through the ways you make it hands-on in your class.
Krystle Moos:
So I went to school, where I loved all my teachers. I was a very compliant student, and I just did what I was told to do, and I was horrible at lab. I was the student that would finish a lab, have all the numbers, and then go sit and bother the teacher until they told me exactly what step to do to get the result.
When I started teaching, I took all labs and took the instructions away. I would do all the labs first. And I really made it more about exploring and modeling and less about manipulation of equipment. And so, I felt like a lot of labs were cookie-cutter labs. You just followed the instructions, and then it kind of connected to the content, but not at all. For me, it wasn't until I started teaching that I understood all the big connections.
As I rewrite labs, I take away the instructions. I make them target labs, or we'll spend multiple days or minutes, even just minutes, looking at a phenomenon, something as simple as ice melting on a block of plastic versus a block of metal. And then we draw, and we discuss, and we show transfer of energy. And so a lot more of the class is discussing revising models. And then I can drive the conversation of what's happening based on student misconceptions, and it makes it less paper pencil working through practice problems and more relatable, so I can say things like, "Do you remember in class when we did this thing? What did you learn, and how can you apply it to this problem?"
Jon Eckert:
Why do you think more teachers don't do this? Again, science lends itself to this, but a lot of science teachers, it's all procedures. It's all trying to track what you did when you did it. Be very careful in your observations, but it's not this exploration of the bigger concepts. Why do you think teachers don't do that more in whatever discipline they're in?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah, I think we do what we were taught. And so I think for a lot of people, it's just really easy to take what's out there and do it, and it worked. And so why change it? And for me, it didn't work for me. And I hated that I spent hours in college in lab, not understanding why I was doing it. And I wanted my students to have a different experience. And I wanted them to see the science around them coming to life so that when they walk outside and it's snowing, they're thinking about the transfer of energy and what's actually happening with the individual water molecules. And I just know I have to change what happened to me so that my students could see all the things that I'm seeing now.
We were just driving down the road. I drove from Denver to New York. And I looked out the window and saw a huge solar panel, a whole field, really, of solar panels. And I got this incredible idea that when I do a topic, I could actually have the students do those little... You know the car where this has a little solar panel, and when light strikes it, it bobbles its head? Well, I could have them explore with different color light on the end of flashlights to figure out a new relationship, a new lab that might make a little bit more sense to the students than the way I had been doing it by just discussing it.
Jon Eckert:
So what I love about what you've described already is you talked about this human piece that we want to belong. And then I think you also are tapping into this idea of wonder. How do we create a sense of awe and wonder about how things work? Not just, "Oh, that's amazing and that's beautiful," but what makes that work?
And when kids start doing that, I think that's how five-year-olds are. They have this curiosity that somehow school rings out of them. And I do think you're right that sometimes we just replicate what we experience as students. But I also think there's a fear of turning over control to students, where it's a lot easier to bore kids into compliance or make sure they follow these steps. And you can see, "Oh, they're not following the steps. They're not complying," where someone might walk into your classroom and be like, "What is going on here?" There's so much happening, there's so much energy. And that creates a sense of loss of control. And if I did that in my classroom, it would just get out of hand. And they fear that loss of control. Do you think that's true, or am I overstating what some teachers might be feeling?
Krystle Moos:
I think it's a little bit of that, and I think it's having those procedures in place. I go everywhere and in populations of adults, obviously, if you can hear me clap once, and it works every single time. But it's also that awkwardness and that a willingness to try something new. Science is about experimentation. I think education is about experimentation. So today, you said wonder. One of the things that I ask my students to do when they model or when they observe a phenomenon, the first thing I ask them is to write down two things they notice and then two things they wonder. And when we start to do that, we start to get them to think. And today, I even messed up in class. I said, "What do you guys notice?" And instead of giving them time to talk to each other first, I asked that question to the whole class complete in utter silence.
And so in the next class period I was like, "I got to do this better," so I gave them some time to talk together, "and I need three answers. I need three people to respond when you're done." I had eight people that just... I had to let them answer all eight of them. And so it's looking at what works and what doesn't work. It also is getting together with other educators. And so, so much of what I do has been revised by talking to teachers across the nation, not just in chemistry, also in biology, and really driving those conversations about, "What do you do? My students struggle with this. Do you have a lab or an activity or a way to teach it? Tell me how you teach it." And being okay, saying, "My students are struggling. What I'm doing is not working. I need some new ideas so that I can get my students to the point of wonder."
Jon Eckert:
Well, I think isn't that ultimately the goal for each of us is that whatever our subject is to get them to wonder. Because if we really want to tap into intrinsic motivation, we can intrinsically motivate them. That's, by definition, impossible. But if you can create the conditions like you did in the second class period where you set it up where it wasn't about you, it was about what they wanted to share, that creates conditions where they might be intrinsically motivated by the concept that they're studying. Because again, intrinsic motivation isn't "I want to be good at science so that I can get into college and then become a doctor." That's all delayed extrinsic motivation. It's, "Do I really have this awe and wonder about what I'm doing?" And I think that's more likely to happen in a class where they feel like they belong.
I will say too, my daughters have both said they love Ms. Moos because of your kind of nerdy love for so many things. And I think that's great because I think you've done a great job modeling that you're not trying to be cool, as whatever an 18-year-old thinks is cool. It's, "No, I think this is amazing," and that passion comes across to them. It's like, "Wow, I've never known anybody quite like that." And then that makes it okay for them to be excited about things that really get them going.
Have you seen that pay dividends? Do you ever struggle with that? I mean, I was clearly not a cool person by the standards of middle school kids, but I felt like I tried to make it okay to be quirky and be a little different and weird. Have you seen that pay dividends for you?
Krystle Moos:
I think I'm just quirky and weird. I'm okay. Just I am who I am, and I don't want my students to think that they have to be anything different than what they are. And having that belonging means that they get to see my weird. They get to see me on my best days when I'm just so excited, and they get to see me on some days that are a little bit harder. And so I really... I guess I didn't think I was that quirky, but I like it. I tell them, "I run science UIL. We're the nerd herd, and we are going to embrace it and love it." And the thing is that science and math and those are the places that I live and breathe. And man, if you want to come with me, great. If not, just appreciate the fact that I'm really excited about something, and I'm happy to hear about what you're excited about too.
Jon Eckert:
And I think that's part of the belonging you create in your classroom. And I may still remember you were talking to us about the eclipse that's coming.
Krystle Moos:
Path of totality.
Jon Eckert:
We've been talking about the path of totality in our house ever since, and-
Krystle Moos:
I'm not even a space person. Just you know, I've never taken a day of a space science class, but I am so excited. I didn't know when we had the annual eclipse. I don't know if you saw the pictures. But when the annual eclipse shines through the trees, the shadow is actually representative of what's happening in the sky because you're not supposed to look at it directly.
Jon Eckert:
Interesting.
Krystle Moos:
And so I didn't know that. And that stuff, what I didn't know, I didn't know. And what I've learned, I'm just so excited to share. It's path of totality on April 8th. I'm so excited.
Jon Eckert:
Space science, I never took anything in space science. I never taught it. And again, if you haven't taught something, it's hard to really know it. So I'm with you, but it is fascinating. And I just love that the energy you bring to that, but it's not just for the subject because sometimes people say, "Oh, elementary teachers teach the kids, and high school teachers teach the subject." It's like, no, you still teach kids, but you teach them to be passionate about what they're interested in. And you bring a passion to the science that I think is it effervesces in a way that it draws people in.
So one of the things you talked about before we jumped on is the way you give feedback based on this. So again, it's really way easier to give meaningful feedback when you have kids who are deeply engaged. But how do you give feedback in a way that helps kids grow and stretch in ways that are hard and uncomfortable but pays big dividends in the end?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah, I think anytime something's tied to a grade, you have a chance of not seeing what students really know and don't know. When we start deducting points for showing what you don't know, I just feel like it's asking students to copy from someone else because it has a stake in it, even if it's just a practice grade, especially when we get to evaluation grades. I don't want to be surprised on a test if a student didn't know something that I thought that they knew because they completed all their assignments. So I like to frequently stop, give the questions, give two or three questions to the students, and say, "Take it like a test. Take it like a quiz. Go in a corner. Don't get help from anybody. Just get as far as you can." And so we do this once or twice a week.
In AP chemistry, we do it all the time. I'm like, "Okay, you're going to do a CF..." We call it a CFU, a check for understanding. And what I do is they are low-stakes, very low-stakes, or no-stakes grades. And so, I'll get someone that turns it in completely blank, and they tried. They read the question. They'll have circled things, but they don't even know where to get started. I know that when I hand it back the next day, I'm going to pull that kid for a small group and work with them. It takes six weeks to drive out from students. That's okay to not know. It's not okay to not ask for help. And I'm still slowly getting the kids to kind of get rid of that. I would rather have you turn in assignments late. I would rather have you learn it later than now if you're not ready for it now, as long as you're willing to work on it later. And it has just been incredible. Students will get...
The class average on a CFA will be 50%. And I will feel so bad about myself because that means I taught it horribly the first time. But maybe I'll do peer-to-peer tutoring, or maybe I'll pull small group, or maybe I'll go over the CFA together. And it was the way the question was worded. And then on the test, the class average is a 90. So at first, I was like, "Maybe my tests aren't hard enough." But that feedback that constantly having students do it low-stakes, working with them, conferencing with them, and then having them learn from their mistakes has just been so impactful on their overall grades. They don't freak out for tests like they used to.
Jon Eckert:
And I know you don't teach for an AP score. I know that's not what motivates you, but your kids do well on AP exams. And that's the kind of teacher that I like to see because that AP exam is validation that, "Hey, they learned a lot." And it's not about grade inflation because we have this really problematic thing going on in high schools right now where there's a ton of cheating going on. There's a tacit endorsement among some teachers like, "Hey, I don't care how you get the answers, just get the answers and let's move on." So you have graduation rates that are off the charts because kids are moving through, and the National Assessment of Education Progress, ACT, SAT they're all showing these declines in actual learning.
And so what I loved in what you described was this check for understanding is not a throwaway grade. This is a true formative check for me and you to know what you do and don't know. And so then, when you get to the summative assessment, you have these high scores because you and your student know what you didn't know, and then you figure out ways because you are one of the most tireless teachers I've seen for reteaching, figuring out ways to show it a different way, and have an unbelievable amount of energy for that. And that's what gets them over that bar. So it's not about grade inflation. They've truly earned that. And that is, to me, the goal of any teacher.
I don't understand teachers that are okay with a class average of 60% that they then curve and bump up because I really want to know what's the 40% of what you taught that you don't care that your kids don't know. I would hope in most classes, the class average is 90% are higher because I want to know if I'm the teacher that's going to get those kids they learn those things. And coming out of your class, they know that. Now, that's not the way most educators work. Why do you think that is?
Krystle Moos:
It's hard. It is really hard to get the students to take ownership over their own learning because we have just passed them on. And so, if in second grade they struggle with one aspect of math, we pass them on. We're in a very heavy math unit right now, and it involves solving proportions. I can teach them the chemistry. They know all the units. But when it gets to the math, I had to spend a half a class period pulling out small groups of students, that when I said, "Look, it's a proportion. You cross multiply and divide." I had kids honest enough. Let's just be real there. Teenagers being honest enough to say, "I don't know how to do that." They said... An exact quote was, "Teachers have been saying this to me. Cross multiply and divide for the past three years, and I don't know what they mean."
And these are students in honors chemistry. And so I've broken down this wall of it's okay to not know, but you have to ask. And if I don't explain it well the first time, I put a lot of the blame on me. If I didn't explain it well the first time because you didn't get it, ask me again, and we'll come up with something else. Or let's go ask one of your friends, because your friend may have been through the same exact system you were. Something I said clicked for them. And so we just do a lot of peer-to-peer tutoring too.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's great. And I do think sometimes you take too much of the responsibility on yourself as an educator. And I think, as educators, we need to know it's a partnership. And kids have to ask, and they have to do the work. I think, sometimes kids, and I don't think this is true in your class, they'll say, "Well, I don't get it." It's like, "No. You have to articulate what you don't understand because I don't get it is basically saying, 'I'm not even going to try to articulate what I don't know.'" Your example with the proportions is a good example. "Teachers have told me this over and over again, and I don't know what that means." That's a really helpful place because then you can step in and say, "Oh, here's what this is." And you shouldn't have to be teaching that in honors chemistry, but...
Krystle Moos:
I'm going to. If we look at... You're talking about the learning connection, what our students know. I think for me, honors chemistry, the big thing is I can support our students in ACT, SAT, and just general knowledge. And if that's the hole they're missing, I'm going to jump in and fill it because do I want them to learn chemistry? Yes. But how many of them are going to use ideal gas law later on in life? And so if I can teach them proportion, I'm good for the day.
Jon Eckert:
Right, right. No. And I really appreciate that about the way you approach, and that's what a lot of great teachers do, and we need to just continue to highlight that. So we always wrap up with a lightning round. So here's your chance in a word, phrase, or sentence to answer a few. And I have a few common ones I go back to, so I'll ask some of those, and we'll see if I come up with anything random. Feel free to take a pause if you need to, because a lot of times these are the first times you've heard these questions, but what's your favorite book that you've read in this past year? It could be education-related, or it could be anything else. I always want a good book recommendation.
Krystle Moos:
I always go to Limitless Mind by Jo Boaler, Productive Struggle, just that grit, that tenacity, that it's okay to not know. I would recommend it for any math, really. Any science teacher.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, you recommended that to me early on when a friend, Jo Boaler, does great stuff. Great, great example for educators. Okay. What is the worst piece of advice you've ever received?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah. I've watched a lot of the podcasts, and so I know the repeat ones, but I had someone recommend. And I thought it was a great idea to separate all the loud students that talk from each other. And I very quickly learned that they still talk just across the classroom. And so I'm a little bit more intentional about that. And I provide them opportunities to work with their louder friends, but gosh, that was just horrible. The one here, I separated, and they were screaming across the room.
Jon Eckert:
Well, with my middle schoolers, what I would do in the lab is I would let them choose who they got to sit with for the quarter, and then they get to pick their seats again the next quarter. They said to pick, they couldn't sit with anybody they sat with that quarter, so their group of four would get broken up, and so they had to move those around. But what I found was they so badly wanted to be together that if you put them together and said, "Hey, if this isn't a good choice for you, I'm going to intercede, and we're going to move you," I found that that was my best way to control some of the off-task behavior that they would get. Sometimes, putting them together was the best thing I could do. Not always, but sometimes.
Krystle Moos:
And their conversations are just so much cooler when they're willing to talk to one another.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. And hilarious.
Krystle Moos:
Oh, hilarious.
Jon Eckert:
And hilarious. All right. Best piece of advice you've ever received.
Krystle Moos:
Yeah. Support the support staff. My secretaries, custodians, they are the backbone behind the school. I support my leaders, support everybody, but those custodians and secretaries really can get overlooked. And their impact is very powerful at the school.
Jon Eckert:
Well said. Good thing to remember. Love that. What's the biggest challenge you see for educators in the year ahead?
Krystle Moos:
Anticipating gaps in learning. As a secondary teacher, I used to know what the students weren't, and were going to know, and where they were. And it seems like each year, planning for those misconceptions is getting a little bit more challenging, but I think it's also really fun to look at the first period and go, 'That did not work. Let's scrap it and try again."
Jon Eckert:
Yep. No, well said. What's the thing that makes you most optimistic as you look ahead?
Krystle Moos:
The kids. They're absolutely just doing incredible things. My students are trying and working with me and growing and building. And really, this move to a standards-based learning. Learning to learn and not learning for a grade has changed so much of my students' perspective on learning. They're willing to try things and ask questions in a way that I haven't seen in a while.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I really appreciate you coming on today. And also, just thank you for helping kids become more of who they're created to be. I think sometimes kids don't even have a vision for who the Lord has made them to be. Obviously, God's never surprised by who that kid, what they can do, but I feel teachers like you help speak into kids' lives, share that with them explicitly, but then implicitly, through the way you teach, give feedback, and push them, allows them to do things that they probably didn't imagine they could do. And you have a lot of kids at Midway High School who consider chemistry and the sciences because they feel like they can do it coming out of your class. So it's a huge blessing to my own children but also to the community. And again, it's what great teachers do. So thanks for being on, and thanks for all you do.
Krystle Moos:
Of course. Thank you.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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In this podcast episode, host Jon interviews two guests from Australia, Darren Iselin and his daughter Beck, about the concept of wellbeing in schools. Beck, a teacher, discusses the increase in mental health issues among her students, such as anxiety and depression, as well as the rise in neurodivergent behaviors. She also shares her observations about the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on student wellbeing. The conversation highlights the importance of relationships, trust, and cultural norms in fostering student wellbeing and flourishing. They conclude by expressing their hopes for the future of education, including a focus on connection and a joyful hope for student flourishing.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged. Mentioned:Flourishing Together by Lynn Swaner and Andy WolfeNovice Advantage by Jon EckertConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Jon:
Welcome back to Just Schools. Today we have two guests in from Australia. Darren Iselin is one of our only ever repeat people on this podcast, he was so good the first time we brought him back again. And this time he's also brought his daughter Beck. Beck is in her sixth year of teaching year four in Australia. And so today we are going to have a conversation where we make a case against wellbeing. So if you aren't intrigued already, hopefully you will be after we start to hear from some of our friends here.
So let's start with Beck. So Beck, you're in your sixth year. So you've been teaching a little bit before Covid hit and then you've had almost half your time before and after Covid. How would you describe the wellbeing of your students in Australia now? And then we'll dig into why maybe that wellbeing is not the right term for our kids.
Beck:
Yeah, absolutely. Within my classroom context, in any given year post Covid, I generally have around 10 kids diagnosed anxiety. I've seen depression as well in addition to then neurodivergent behaviors, seeing a massive increase.
Jon:
Neuro divergent. I love the terms used. I mean five years ago, we never heard that but all right, so continue with neurodivergent. Sorry to interrupt.
Beck:
So that's an increase in that, in addition to what I was already seeing. I think there's been a lot of children coming in just not at their, we talk about battery packs and they're coming into that school day and their battery pack is just completely drained at the start of the school day. And I think Covid times are really interesting for me. I was still teaching grade one back then and in Australia we only had remote learning for a short time. But for my students, the students who attended school, their wellbeing if you want to call it that I guess, they just seemed happier and settled and then the students who were learning at home seemed the same. And so then coming back from Covid was really hard because the students at school that had had so much more attention had had a different school day, they then struggled with having everyone back together and then the students who were at home who had had Mom and Dad doting on them for the whole day and only having to do some hours.
Jon:
I want to be in that house. I don't think our kids felt like they were doted on our house.
Beck:
I know sitting in Mom and Dad's office chair, we saw Ugg boots with the school uniforms, so then they loved that time. And so what I found really interesting was the coming back to I guess what we had considered normal school. And I feel like we've kind of been struggling to still come back after that, if that makes sense.
Jon:
Yes. Well in the US some schools were out for long periods of time, so there's significant learning loss that's happened and they're not able to figure out ways to minimize that impact and then accelerate forward on top of all the shifts in the way kids have gone through schooling over the last four years.
Darren, we had a conversation with a renowned education scholar and in that conversation we were talking about wellbeing and flourishing and some of the issues that Beck just alluded to because we're seeing that in college students, we're seeing in grad students, we're seeing it in K through 12 students for sure. He mentioned that he did not like the term wellbeing and he didn't like the term flourishing. From what you recall of that conversation, what was his beef with those two terms? To me those have been some of the most ubiquitous terms in schools and who's against wellbeing? And here I'm saying we're making a case against it. What was his problem with those terms?
Darren:
Yeah, I think it comes out of a sense that the way that we are orientating the whole educational process has become highly individualized, highly about the self, the atomized version of who we are, and we've lost sight of, I guess a larger understanding of community and understanding of relationship and understanding of how we do this educative process together as opposed to siloed and isolated. And I think his main concern was around that the notion of wellbeing has become more and more about an introspective subjective version of what that means as an outcome as opposed to something that is around a collective purpose and meaning making that can be shared in a journey together.
Jon:
So when you think about Aristotle's view of the purpose of education, it was to lead to a flourishing society, which is an individual component to that, but that also has a communal purpose, it's not just to flourish. That becomes an issue. So I think I agree that was one of his things that he was pushing back against. And then I felt like he was also pushing against the idea that if kids believe that when they go to school their wellbeing is going to be attended to, and educators see wellbeing as the end, that communicates to them a freedom from struggle. And in fact, in his view, and also I think in our shared view, education is struggle. It's not freedom from struggle, it's freedom to struggle well.
So I know Beck, you were just in US schools, you were visiting and then you have your school context, and again, you just got to drop in on a US school. But do see kids struggling well in schools, do you think they think of wellbeing and flourishing including struggle? Is that something that your students in Australia... Or my perception is in the US that's not something that's expected as a part of wellbeing and that wellbeing is freedom from it. What do you see?
Beck:
I love that because I think some teachers can be so quick to put up the poster, the growth mindset poster of the struggle is healthy. And you might see it in a room in that sense physically, but I like to talk about it almost like this sense of accomplishment. And so at one point a school that I was in had a model where if students experienced struggle, the classroom was then no longer a safe space. And it was like, okay, we need to remove them from the struggle. We don't really know what we'll do with them at that point. We might have calm down strategies, we might do all sorts of things, but then what was happening was that these students never got to experience the sense of accomplishment that came from doing a task that they thought they couldn't do and then actually succeeding in that.
And I've even heard students say to me like, "Oh, I had no idea I was able to do that," or "Oh, that was actually really fun." Or to the point where I had one student discover just a love of reading, had never wanted to touch a book or pick up a book before that. And then just with that I guess a sense of going, you can do it and being careful with the language that I used around her, she's now the student that literally walks around with her head in a book and that's just unlocked a whole new world for her as well. And so I think I'm cautious to never rob my students of that and to embrace that struggle.
Jon:
I love the idea of not robbing your students of it. And you mentioned in a conversation we had earlier about the space in a classroom you can go if you feel like you need a time to take a break and you just need to disengage and then not participate. And obviously there are times when kids are unregulated and they just need a space to calm down and that's real, but it becomes a crutch. And so then you've taken away the chance for a kid to struggle well. So how do you balance that? The kid who needs some time to regulate versus the kid who needs to be stretched, the cognitive endurance needs to be challenged, the push has to be there. How have you figured out how to balance that? I know you've figured out all the answers because in your sixth year of teaching, so how do you do that?
Beck:
I think I couldn't not mention relationship. So much comes down to the trust that is built. But I guess if I could say practically aside from that, I have had spaces like that in my classroom. In my grade one classroom we had the cool down couch.
Jon:
I want to go to the cool down couch.
Beck:
It was great. It was this bright green vinyl. I had kids asleep on that thing. It was great. But one thing I loved was having a space, I've seen tents, I've seen all sorts of things, having a space where the student was still in close proximity to their peers. They were still part of our discussions, but they just perhaps weren't sitting at their desk in a scratchy chair. Maybe it was a little bit quieter where they were, but there was always a sense of I feel that it's best for you to be in this room. We want you here. This is community, this is belonging. And what pathway is built if when they begin to struggle, I send them out. And so yeah, I guess what I saw then was children who maybe don't look like they're listening the way that we might expect. I've heard crisscross applesauce. That's a big thing here.
Jon:
Yes, it's a big thing here. Yes.
Beck:
Yeah. But then still being able to engage in discussion just might not look the way that I expect it to look.
Jon:
No, that's good. So Darren, when you look up the word flourish, so we've picked on wellbeing for a little bit, and again, I want to make it clear we're all for wellbeing. We know you can't do any of the work that we do in schools without wellbeing. But if we're communicating to kids that the definition of wellbeing or flourishing, if you look up in Merriam Webster's, the dictionary, it says flourish means to grow luxuriantly. I don't think anyone would read that and think, oh, that means I need to struggle. And so how do we as leaders of schools and catalysts for other school leaders, how do we help our educators communicate to students what it means to struggle well? Especially as Christians because I think we have a better view of what it means to flourish as human beings knowing that we're made in the image of God. So how do we do that? Have you had any success in Australia doing this? Do you have any hope for us?
Darren:
Look, I think there is hope, and I think it's very much around how we're framing that conversation, Jon. To talk about this notion of flourishing as though it's the removal of all of those mechanisms that will imply risk, that will imply struggle, that will imply a wrestling through actually goes against the very grain of what we're really after with genuine wellbeing and genuine flourishing which we want in our school communities.
I think something that comes back to our training as educators is always around that Vygotskian term around the zone of proximal development. And of course what we can do together can be exponentially better than what we can do on our own. And I think that notion of proximal development, we could apply to very different frames.
We can do that pedagogically, what that pedagogical zone of proximal development looks like. What does relational proximal development look like? Going back to Beck's couch and the safe spaces that we create within our classrooms, what does cultural proximal development look like? Where we're actually together working on solutions that will expand and what we end up with through struggle, through risk, through uncertainty is actually better rounded and better formed students, better formed teachers, better formed communities within our schools.
Jon:
I love that ZPD applied to relational development. So my question then for Beck is you're now in that sweet spot I feel like in the teaching profession. The first year you're just trying to figure it out. The second year you're trying to pick up what you muddled through the first year. And by the third year you hit a, if you've gotten to teach the same grade level subject, you kind of like, okay, I get this. And you can look around and see what colleagues do I pull into this? How can I be more intentional about things other than just being survival mode?
So your zone of proximal development for relational development as a leader in your classroom and beyond, you have more capacity for that now. So how have you seen your capacity for struggle increase? Because now you have the ability to not constantly be thinking about what am I saying? What am I doing? What's the lesson plan? You have this bandwidth, how have you seen yourself grow in that relational ZPD?
Beck:
I think there's definitely been, as with probably comes with any job, just an easing into it. And so there is a sense of it just being a lot of second nature and also just coming back every day and just having eyes that would see beyond the behaviors and having eyes that would see beyond maybe the meltdowns and the language used not just from my students but from within the whole school community. I think that obviously with then success and going, oh, I've done this before. I remember when I did this for this student before, this really worked quite well.
And it never is the same for two students, but there's definitely a confidence that grows. And whilst I am in my sixth year, I don't feel like I'm in my sixth year. I feel like I have so much more to learn. But I think teaching is just like that. I think that the point where you just say, no, I've learned everything there is to learn, that's a dangerous place to be in. And I think there's so much to learn from our students as well. They teach me so much every day. And one of my greatest joys is when I see them begin to celebrate each other's successes and interact with each other in the same way that I guess I'm trying to create that culture.
Darren:
And becomes a very cultural dimension, Jon, where there is that capacity for trust, for engagement, for that sense of that we are in this together. And because we're in it together both within the students but within our classroom, there are these cultural norms that are created that are so powerful. And as someone who, obviously I'm very biased going into my daughter's own classroom, but when I see classrooms that are actually reflecting a culture where that proximal development is taking place culturally, relationally, pedagogically, it really is a transformative space. It's a safe space, but it's not without risk. And so it's not safetyism, as Jonathan Haight would say, it's actually a place where people are entrusted to be able to be who they are, to be real and authentic in that space and allow for that image bearing capacity to find its fullness.
Jon:
Yeah. So when you say that, I go back to the, obviously we need schools to be safe, we need classrooms to be safe, but I think if we tell kids that they're going to wait until they feel safe to share, marginalized kids will never share. And so in fact, they need to be respectful spaces that celebrate the risk taking what you described about seeing kids and celebrating that. And I think what you also described was gritty optimism. It isn't the naive optimism of a beginner. So my first book I wrote was called The Novice Advantage, and I talk about the shift that happens when you go from naive optimism to gritty optimism where you're optimistic based on things you've seen kids grow and do that you didn't think they could do.
And when you can take that from the classroom and make that be a school-wide value, that's when it gets fun. Because when we say struggle, nobody wants to struggle. I don't want to struggle. I know sanctification is a process of being stretched. I want to be stretched without having been stretched. I don't want to go through the process of it. I want the benefit of it on the back end. And so I think what I want to see as a profession or people like you Beck and you Darren, leading other educators in this struggle where we celebrate the growth that we see, when we do more than we thought we can do and that it be fun.
I don't think that the way I'm conceiving of wellbeing, that includes freedom to struggle well as being something that's onerous and compliance driven. I see it as something that, no, I could do this in August. I can do this now in December. Beck, I could do this as a first year teacher. I can do this now in my sixth year and I can point to how I've grown. So if you were to think back over the six years, how are you fundamentally different as a teacher because of some of the hard things that you've gone through in your first six years?
Beck:
I think to throw another buzzword in, I would say resilient.
Darren:
Oh yes.
Jon:
Yes.
Beck:
I think there's been so many micro moments. It's very hard to pinpoint and say this class or this child or this parent or this moment, but it's just the micro moments every day. Teachers make thousands upon thousands of decisions daily. And I think there's almost a sense of empowerment in going, when I speak from my own successes, I then can call that out in someone else. I think every teacher starts their career one of two ways, very bright-eyed. I was like, I've got the rainbow-
Jon:
Idealistic.
Beck:
... rainbow decor, I've got the cool down couch, everything's alliterated. And I think I was very blessed to actually have taught the two cohorts that I taught in first grade again in fourth grade. And that was very significant for me because one, I got to enjoy all of the great things I saw in grade one, but they was so much more independent. But also it was in some ways a second chance to go, Hey, that thing that I really didn't do well when I was fumbling around in grade one, let's do that again and let's do it together.
You know that I was there and I know that I was there, but we're both on this journey together. And that then created stronger community and this sense of identity to the point where I had one of my students create a hashtag on Cecil, which is a platform that students can upload to. And one of the photos he goes, hashtag 4B for life. And I was like, "What did you mean, Luke? What is this?" And he was like, "Oh, it just means we've got each other's backs," and all these things that, I mean, I could have put signs up and said, we're a family and we have this and these are our class rules and whatever. But I would much rather that come from their mouth and just knowing that they felt it was safe, I didn't have to prove that something... I didn't have to prove that I was a safe person. I didn't have to prove that my classroom was a safe space. It just became that. And yeah, looking back, I think it just makes me more excited, I think for the years ahead.
Jon:
Well, they owned the culture. It wasn't you forcing the culture. They owned it and you have the evidence of it. So Darren, you've been in education a little bit longer than Beck.
Darren:
Just one or two more years.
Jon:
How do you see your growth or the growth of educators like Beck? Where are you encouraged by growth that you've seen in yourself or growth just in the profession and what you've seen in Australia or you've been all over the world seeing this, where do you see optimism for this growth?
Darren:
I think the optimism comes Jon, when you see the capacity for that transformative interaction between student and teacher. That sacred moment on day one, which for many of our schools in Australia are going back within one or two weeks for that day one. And we start afresh. We start afresh with the newness of a new year, a new class, new minds, new hearts, new relationships to engage with and to see the transformative impact that that has.
And year after year, we come back to that core element of what it means to actually be about this ancient task of teaching. To be able to engage this space well through struggle, yes, through risk, through uncertainty, through all the things that will be thrown at us in this year. And yet there is something about being a part of a community, a network, a culture that is established within a classroom that truly is a microcosm of what that school should look like right through as you talked about those norms and values that flow, and then indeed what a wider community would look like.
And that notion of flourishing of what shalom might look like in its holistic sense, I think is the responsibility that every teacher has. And I get excited at this time of the year, this beginning phase that every teacher goes in, whether they've been teaching for 30 years or this is their first year of teaching, when they stand before that class for the first day, that first hour when they're establishing those norms, those expectations, we are filled with hope. We are filled with expectation, we are filled that we want to be part of 4B forever-
Jon:
That's right.
Darren:
... because of what we are endeavoring to achieve here with purpose and meaning and something that goes far beyond just a transactional arrangement.
Jon:
I mean, teaching is one of the most human things we do and it's what keeps us coming back to it. And I'm excited about the tools that are out there from AI to ChatGPT to whatever, but anything that takes the human out of it is a problem. And so in just teaching, I define wellbeing as purpose-driven, flourishing, and then feedback is purpose-driven wisdom for growth. There's this huge component. And that only comes from humans. Because AI is consensus, it's scraping whatever the web has said on a certain topic and says, Hey, here's what consensus is. That's not wisdom. And so we gain wisdom from struggle. We're much more able to help and have empathy for people once we've been through something hard. We become much less judgmental. And I think that's grounded in two Corinthians four, seven through 10. And I think as educators we get to live that out all the time.
And so I was sharing with you before we jumped on, I memorized these verses as a kid, but I didn't memorize verse 10, which is the most important one. So if you remember Paul's writing to the Corinthians and they were known for pottery that would be cracked and you could put a light in it and the light would shine through it. So it makes this passage even more powerful. And it comes from our friend Lynn Swaner and Andy Wolfe's book Flourishing Together. And they use this as their paradigm for what this means. And it's super encouraging in this way. But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the all surpassing power is from God, not from us. We're hard-pressed on every side but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair, persecuted but not abandoned, struck down but not destroyed. So those are the ones that are there and those are daunting if you put in educators instead of we. Educators are hard-pressed on every side.
Darren:
Sums up our profession.
Jon:
It's felt like that, right? But that gives us the opportunity to show Christ. And so that's where verse 10 comes in. We always carry around in our bodies the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also may be revealed in our bodies. So our creator had to come, suffer, die and we carry that around so that we can then reflect his glory to others because he's at work in us. So as we do this work, that's the hope, that's the joy.
Darren:
Absolutely.
Jon:
Right. And so we're going to wrap up our time with a lightning round. And so I always like to ask, I have five or six kind of go-to questions here. And so I'm curious and feel free to build on anything that we've talked about so far, but this is a word, phrase or sentence. I'm terrible at this. I always would go too long if I were asked this. But if you were to think back on this past year and what we've just talked about, what real wellbeing is, really that's what we're talking about. What is real wellbeing? What's one word that sums up for you how you've approached your own wellbeing in this past year? What would be a word that comes into mind? And in this one, I really do want the first word that pops in your head.
Beck:
Fulfillment for me.
Jon:
Great word, Beck. That was quick. She's younger than we are. Her mind works faster. So Darren, go for it.
Darren:
I'll tell you something quite random, gaming. Now I'm not a gamer, but I love games and Beck shares that passion. We often don't get to play them as much as we should, but we have room full of games that we can pick at any given time. But there is something that is dynamic about gaming. There's something about when you enter into play into that space of actually struggle, of risk, of uncertainty, of joy. And I think in all of that, that to me has been something that has really resonated with me as I've looked at this whole notion of wellbeing is we need to play more, we need to have more fun, Jon. We get to far too serious about too many things.
Jon:
That's right. Darren's a lightning round guy like I am. Beck had literally one word.
Beck:
I'm obedient. Follow the instructions.
Jon:
So I wasn't planning to ask this one, but in the last year, what has been your favorite game that you have played? One of your top five?
Beck:
I have to say Ticket to Ride for me.
Jon:
Oh, I love Ticket to Ride.
Beck:
And all the expansion packs.
Jon:
I've not done the expansion packs. All right. Ticket to Ride. Great.
Darren:
We just love our trivial games. So anything that's got trivia in it. And there are some really awful games of that, there are some really fantastic games that we play with that.
Beck:
Lots of eighties trivia.
Darren:
Lots of eighties and nineties trivia. Just to boost the points for-
Beck:
That's not my sweet spot.
Darren:
... Mom and Dad.
Jon:
Yes. Well my kids love the Harry Potter Trivial Pursuit because I sit and listen to them and I am both proud and cringing that they know Harry Potter that well.
Darren:
My children are like that with Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.
Beck:
Or any sport.
Jon:
Oh well that's okay. Sport is all clear. All good. Okay. So what's the best book you've read in the last year? And it doesn't have to be education related, but it could be.
Beck:
Mine is a Hinds' Feet on High Places by Hannah Hurnard.
Jon:
Okay.
Beck:
Yeah. Fantastic book. It's an allegory, follows the story of a character called Much Afraid, who is on her way to the high places and has to walk in the hinds' feet of the shepherd leading her. Powerful.
Jon:
That sounds powerful. All right, Darren?
Darren:
Mine was a book by Andy Crouch called The Life We're Looking For, really about reclaiming relationships in a technological age. And I just found that such a riveting read. I read it almost in one sitting. It was that engaging.
Jon:
Wow. I love Andy Crouch. That's great. So two great recommendations there. All right. Worst piece of advice you've ever received as an educator? Either one of you.
Beck:
As an educator, that's tricky.
Jon:
Or you can just go, worst piece of advice that could be fun too.
Darren:
Well, the classic that is often rolled out is don't smile till Easter, right. Now it might have a different terminology in the US .
Jon:
It's Thanksgiving. Don't smile till Thanksgiving.
Darren:
From my day one of teaching Jon, I refused to even go to that space. It was just so against everything that I believed as far as the relational heart of teaching.
Jon:
That's great.
Beck:
I would've said the same. Non-educator worst advice, just add caramel syrup to American coffee and it tastes better. That's terrible advice. Nothing will save it.
Jon:
Nothing will save American coffee. Hey, it's a struggle. It's part of the struggle. There you go. It's not contributing to your wellbeing.
Darren:
The joy in the journey.
Jon:
That's good. All right. So I will say about 70% of the people on this give the worst piece of advice that they've ever received that don't smile till the thing. And so we get that every time.
Beck:
Original.
Jon:
It's so sad that-
Darren:
Tragic.
Jon:
...that is so pervasive. Best piece of advice you've ever received? And this could be in general or as an educator.
Darren:
I will go with education again, Jon, that at the heart of education is the education of the heart. And so just keep it real and keep it relational. And it's all about relationships.
Beck:
As an educator, best advice I've received, I don't know if you could call it advice, but the quote "The kids who need love the most are the hardest to love." That's my favorite.
Jon:
That's good. Last question, last word for the listeners. What do you hope in the years ahead as an educator will best define what it means to flourish as a student? So word, phrase, or sentence. What would flourishing really look like for a kid moving forward?
Beck:
I would say a word, connection. And I would love to see Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs starting at the bottom not always at the top in our classrooms.
Jon:
Love it.
Darren:
Yeah. I think for me the word that constantly comes to mind is joyful hope, is a joyful hope in what we do, that what we've been entrusted with every year within our classrooms. That there's a joyful hope that awaits.
Jon:
Well, thank you for being with us today. It's been a huge blessing for me.
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In this podcast episode, Jon Eckert interviews Deani Van Pelt, who leads an association of independent Christian schools in Ontario, Canada. They discuss trends in education, including increased parental engagement and the growth of alternative forms of education. They also touch on the work of Cardus, a think tank focused on education for the common good, and the importance of using industry best practices in education. Van Pelt highlights the ideas of Charlotte Mason, an educator from the early 20th century, who emphasized the importance of relationships and the development of the whole person in education. They also discuss the role of empathy and narration in learning, and the challenges and opportunities facing education today.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Mentioned:Understanding by Design: Professional Development Workbook by Jay McTighe, Grant Wiggins From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life by Arthur BrooksThe Whalebone Theatre: A Read with Jenna Pick by Joanna Quinn Jon Eckert:Welcome back to The Just Schools Podcast. Today we're here with good friend Deani Van Pelt, another friend from Canada. We've had some great insights from educators in Canada. So first of all, welcome, Deani. It's great to have you. And just tell us a little bit about what you do now and how you got to what you do right now. And then we'll jump into some trends that we're seeing and some cool ideas and how to better engage students.Deani Van Pelt:Great to be here, Jon. Always good to be in conversation with you. And greetings from Canada. I'm sitting here in a nice icy weather just outside of Toronto. Currently, I lead an association of independent Christian schools here in Ontario. We've got almost 100 private Christian schools that are part of our association. So many dynamic committed leaders and educators within the network, within there's about 20,000 students whose lives we're privileged to be part of through the work that we do in our association. We do some on learning, some on leadership, some on government advocacy and a lot of work on school support. Just helping schools to be the absolute best they can be, most professional, most effective in our times. So it's fantastic to be able to serve the independent school sector here in Canada in that way. We do lots of work as you know John, that's how you and I met, with leaders in Christian education across Canada but also across North America and across the pond with the UK and other countries.And we've just learned so much from each other as we network and connect with one another. We're soon going to be bringing a whole cohort of Christian school leaders from Canada over to the UK. And just find that our optimism, our focus, our leadership abilities really increased through these engagements and just so privileged to be part of that.Jon Eckert:That's great. No, I was going to say I love what you do through Advance. And then we also get to overlap through Cardus as senior fellows because they're all looking at education for the common good. And what does that mean? To educate in ways that serve the public because sometimes, at least in the US, we think of public schools as obviously being for the public good. We want to do that. I spent 12 years teaching in public schools, but then how do other schools contribute to that public good? And so, Cardus is a think tank that does a lot of good work in one section is education, that's where we overlap. So just talk a little bit about your work there, how that ties into Advance and some of the cool things that you get to do, where you see some of that work going.Deani Van Pelt:One of my favorite short statements about education comes from Cardus and they say all education is public education. It doesn't matter where it's happening, it's all for the common good. It's all the education of the public for the common good. And for some it's government schools, for others it's in an independent school. And now we're seeing all of these out of system types or forms of education that are starting up. It's all education is public education. So along those lines, Cardus does a lot of work as looking at the independent school sector. They're really interested in the good that can come out of non-government schooling. So you and I we're both so privileged to be part of these research teams, looking at so many different aspects of the independent school sector. There's quite a few senior fellows at Cardus on the education file. And together with each one of us with our different areas of expertise, the whole school of thought out of Cardus is becoming increasingly sophisticated.And if your listeners haven't taken a look lately at Cardus' education research, I highly recommend it. I scrolled through again yesterday. It's fantastic the number of studies that are coming out of Cardus through the collaboration across quite a few researchers.Jon Eckert:Well, and Cardus was great. They were able to publish a collective leadership paper that looks at what collective leadership looks like in independent schools that I had worked on. And I really appreciated them putting that white paper out. But they do have a number of amazing white papers. And then we survey educational outcomes for people 24 to 39. And I guess Cardus has been doing that for 13 years. I've been a part of it now for the last few. And we have that data. We just did another data collection that will be coming out with results from that relatively soon where we can just take an open-minded, even-handed look at what the data is showing for what kinds of outcomes we're getting from all of these kinds of education that contribute to the common good, which I think is important. And I think those are really useful conversations to have.So with that said, what are some of the trends you're seeing in education in Canada they get you excited, and maybe some of the trends that you're a little more concerned about as you look ahead at what's coming? Since you get to work with so many different school leaders, you obviously have that and you place some in the policy space. So what are some trends you're excited about and maybe some you're concerned about?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah, so I would say the biggest trend is that parents are really dialed into their kids' education. COVID gave people a glimpse as to what was going on, and I think more and more parents started being involved, started asking questions. Some were pretty satisfied with what they saw and they were really contributing, some not so satisfied and started asking some other questions. But the point is, parents are probably more engaged in their kids' education than we've seen in quite a few decades. So that's a key trend and a number are making different choices for their children schooling. But it isn't just on that we call the demand side of choosing something different. It's also the provision, John, so many new independent or other sorts of out of system forms of education are starting up. And that is a significant trend, particularly here in the province of Ontario where I am.A couple of 100 independent schools have opened just in the last two years in this province. That kind of growth it hasn't been seen before. So also growth in homeschooling, but homeschooling isn't what it used to be. It now takes this kind of hybrid form where there's a few days where you might be at home and then a few days of the week where you're out in a more group setting. Perhaps you're registered as part of a school, maybe it's delivered through hybrid means so you're part of a school but it's a virtual school. So just the diversity, the categories, I would say the trend in the categories no longer being so distinct, public school, independent school, homeschool, that's changing. And that's really fun. I love entrepreneurs. I love an entrepreneurial spirit. And you've heard the new word, entrepreneur, and I think that's exactly these are the days of entrepreneurship. And it's really exciting to see people with very high capacity individuals but also communities coming together and saying, "I think we can do this differently. We can do this better." And giving it a try, that's a fantastic trend and that's global.Jon Eckert:Yeah, I would agree that that is definitely pervasive. And as you see that, do you see any challenges or headwinds for education that give you pause, or that you feel like we really need to be focusing on to overcome?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah, exactly. There are a lot of industry standards as you and I know. There are best practices, there are some fantastic insights that we know about how children learn, about what optimal teaching and learning environments can be, that these entrepreneurs really should be considering. So at Advance, for example, we help schools with their operations. It's basic. You need these certain types of policies, all right, here they are. Take a look at all of these. Make sure you're at very minimum doing all of these things. You want to operate a safe, healthy school that follows whatever the requirements are, the legislative requirements are for the jurisdiction in which you find yourself. So get up to speed, find the organizations that can help you to operate safely and well. So don't try to do it all on your own, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And good entrepreneurs know that as well to use industry best standards, best practices. So that would be a challenge but the solution's available. There are fantastic associations like ours and other supports across every educational jurisdiction, and I think folks just want to seek those out.Jon Eckert:That's good. I like that your challenges even offer some hope and some ways forward. Well, one of the things that I think is interesting is you talk about these shifts that have been happening fairly rapidly since COVID. One of your deep passions is based on Charlotte Mason who was born in 1842. So has some timeless truths in some of the ways that she approached education and a liberal education, and what that means to really educate whole people. She is well known in some circles. And then many people that are listening may not have heard of Charlotte Mason. So tell us a little bit about where you find hope in Charlotte Mason for where we're at now as we have these, as you use the term entrepreneurs. As we think about that, well, how do we stick to these timeless truths with all these different delivery mechanisms and ways we can deliver education? Where do you see those things overlapping?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah, great question. And indeed, she died just over 100 years ago, so what on earth are we doing talking about a person... How on earth? The turn of the 20th century but indeed there are some timeless principles. And I love Charlotte Mason's idea about education being about relations, relationships or education being the science of relations. If you think of that as a metaphor for what it is we're actually trying to do as educators, it's a fruitful notion. So if you think about the purpose of education is to build relationships as Charlotte Mason would say, in four different areas. So relationship with self, relationship with others, so others being people who lived in the past, people who live now in other places maybe than your own context, but also your own context and thinking about people who'll live in the future. You say, "Oh yeah, this makes sense."Well, and then the third type of relationship, relationship with the universe. Well, what's that? Nature, all of the aspects of the universe, science around us. And then fourthly, relationships with God, relationship with the divine. Understanding that the child has the whole person, does include the spiritual, the emotional, the intellectual aspects. So if you think about all of what we do under this umbrella of relationship building and that all of education is about, it has this relational feeling, that makes sense. But then on top of it, Mason says, "Students, people, children are born persons." And she doesn't say they're born individuals, she says they're born persons. So her anthropology talks about personhood. And I did some digging a little while ago because that just started bothering me, what does she mean by this? Why is this so revolutionary? In Canada women were declared persons in 1929. Okay, so legally we became persons less than 100 years ago. Is that-Jon Eckert:That's good to know, major jump.Deani Van Pelt:But it wasn't just that legal definition, it was more than that. What is personhood? If you hold that view of the human being that they are persons, it means that you hold to the fact that they are born into and born for relationship. So the idea is that the child as a person isn't an individual, lonely, isolated, autonomous, even just self-centered and sort of almost free floating. We can start getting pretty negative if we use the sense of the child as an individual. But if we think about the child as a person, they're born into something already preexisting. They're in a certain time and place, born into certain relationships, and then born for relationship. That's what I love about Mason. If you say your education philosophy is for a certain thing and then it's rooted in your anthropology or understanding of the human person, it's a pretty coherent philosophy. I like that. I love as well that it's got that whole theological side and well-rounded side. So obviously it has some practical implications. What does a relational education look like?Jon Eckert:Well, and I love that piece about it being relational. And when we think about the highest form of understanding in the US, Wiggins and McTighe wrote the book Understanding by Design. And they put at the top level of understanding empathy. And it makes a lot of sense because in order to understand anything, you have to understand yourself and your place in it. But to be able to understand the perspective of someone else, you understand the concept well enough that you can actually understand it from the perspective of another person, that feels like a timeless truth about what it is to truly understand and very much grounded in Charlotte Mason. One other thing that came to mind when you shared that is Arthur Brooks' book From Strength to Strength. He ends his book with this, basically this is his life motto, and it is to use things, love others and worship the divine. That's it. He's like, we don't use people, we use things. We don't love things, we love others. And ultimately our goal is to worship the divine. That feels like that would fit pretty nicely with Charlotte Mason, would you agree?Deani Van Pelt:Oh, absolutely. And then to go back to the first point that you made about empathy, Charlotte Mason would say, especially when you're introducing a subject to a child, teach it through literature, teach it through what she called living books. Textbooks are great. You want to drill down and learn more about a certain topic, but don't introduce it. Use living books, use a story, beautiful language to pull a child into a setting, a time, a place, build that empathy. And we've learned that if the amygdala is stimulated, learning's going to be more solid. So stimulate the emotions, draw the child into a topic area. And I just love that sense like that and many good educators use that practice. Of course, as you say, it's a timeless idea. Use the story, use great books, living books to bring a child into caring about ideas and things.So the other aspect to build the full person, because you did talk about Arthur Brooks saying use things, is that education will happen by books and things. The child does have that intellectual, the emotional but they also have the physical. And if we include in our education, a lot of use of our hands, building, creating, making, that helps build another aspect of the personhood and creates obviously a certain kind of confidence and an engagement with the world that has many levels to it. So books and things as a full education in Charlotte Mason's approach. And I was looking at what some of your definitions are for engaged learning. I love your book, Just Teaching, and just so happy to be able to refer back to it. But you talk about the consolidation and creation as being part of being engaged. And Mason has this notion called narration.So let's say think of a child early in their education, we read a living book, we read the story and then the child tells back. So verbally telling back what they just heard, retelling. And we've learned that narration it's not a test to see if you caught what was in the story, but it's by that very act of giving back you are consolidating the ideas, you're making them your own, you're verbalizing. So now we're developing oracy. And so the thoughts become the child's own, that is the process of learning. It's not the test but narration is the way of consolidating. Then the creation side is, okay, how do we verbally explain later on a child's education? Their narration will take written forms, but it can also take other forms. They create items that are ways of narrating their learning. So love your definition of engagement. And I think it does draw on timeless principles that Mason brought upJon Eckert:Well, and so I would totally agree with that. And I say it's the four Cs. You got to have content. Kids have to be able to consolidate. They need to be able to collaborate with peers, with teachers. And then the creation piece, what I love about the narration piece and how it relates to creation is when you're narrating you're bringing yourself to it. And you're understanding fully the concepts that you're narrating. It's like a kid who reads Shakespeare and doesn't understand it. It's just reading words and phonemes and putting them together with no sense making. But that narration, they're creating meaning in the way they do the narration. So it's not summarization, it's not just a regurgitation, it's actual the way you just described it according to Mason, it is creation. And I always say in the book, it's feedback, engagement and wellbeing. To get to interesting feedback where you're giving purpose-driven wisdom for growth, that's how I define feedback, you've got to have that deep engagement.Otherwise, what are you giving feedback on? If it's just surface level learning, it's not very interesting to give feedback on. You can't give very much. And so ultimately that kind of narration and creation of meaning as we pursue truth together becomes this powerful interchange between teacher and student. And I think is why most of us that love teaching keep coming back to it because that's the meaningful part. So yeah, I don't know if you'd add anything there because if you want to have a final thought on that, go ahead and then we'll jump into our lightning round to wrap things up.Deani Van Pelt:Well, that's fantastic. But Charlotte Mason did say, in the end, it's not how much a child knows it is how much they care. And building these relationships, building this care for many orders of things opens a full life for the child. And you talked about that. Charlotte Mason recommends a liberal education, a full liberal arts education. Some young children are having up to 20 subjects a day, just small amounts, beautiful poetry, some beautiful music, engagement with a variety of literature that touches a whole bunch of subjects, history, art, geography. So you keep the feast, the banquet is full, you engage a lot of ideas in really rich ways and that does open doors of not only knowledge but also care. And I just think that is a full education along the lines of what exactly what you talk about.Jon Eckert:Well, that's a perfect transition to the lightning round because I think in our TikTok generation, we may need to rethink how do we give kids bits and pieces in small amounts so that they can be drawn in and then they can develop the cognitive endurance. So for the lightning round, we're just going to give bits and pieces of what would be big answers, but we keep these to a word phrase or a sentence or so. We'll test your ability to do that and I'm terrible at this one. But first question, maybe an easy one, I know you read a lot. What's been your favorite book? It could be education related, doesn't have to be, but favorite book you've read in the last year?Deani Van Pelt:I have spent the last six months reading a lot of novels. And a girlfriend and I sat on a dock this past summer, and she was just sharing, "Deani, you don't read enough literature." So I made a decision to read a lot of contemporary literature that come recommended. So in the last few weeks I have read, it's not necessarily my favorite book but it's caught my attention. It's called the Whalebone Theater. And recently published, I'm blanking on the author, children raised in sort of unusual circumstances in an English manor house, but they love Shakespeare. And it's these children, there are all three half siblings. And how Shakespeare and their own navigation of the world leads to some really courageous acts during World War 11.Jon Eckert:All right. Well, that's Joanna Quinn is the author. Does that sound right to you?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah.Jon Eckert:Typically, I spend 95% of my time reading nonfiction, but I've been increasingly convicted that fiction and reading novels really builds empathy because it allows you to get in the heads of different characters. And so I have been encouraged to read more literature. My problem with that is I get so sucked into the story that I become a bad father, I become a bad husband, I become a bad employee. All I want to do is read the book. So I read nonfiction somewhat protectively because I can set that down. A good story, oh, it is rough. All right, well, that's good. Good recommendation. I'll file that one away. So if you were to say in a word, phrase, or sentence, what you see is the biggest challenge facing education right now, what would it be?Deani Van Pelt:Jon, I wish you would've asked me what the biggest hope is for education.Jon Eckert:Well, that's next. We can start with hope if you want, we can end with challenge. I usually like to start with the challenge first, but you can go with hope first and then we can talk about a challenge.Deani Van Pelt:The biggest hope that we have for education is that so many actors are caring about it right now. So many new providers, teachers, community members, thinking about... They're asking the question, could this be different? And if so, can we do it? And their answer is yes.Jon Eckert:Okay. So if you're struggling with the challenge, if that is the biggest opportunity, I would say the potential biggest challenge with that is how do you find coherence and how do you have any type of connectivity? Or is it just 1000 flowers blooming and you just see what it is. But I could see there being challenges. It's great to have that many people interested, that many people with ideas of what could work. But how do you try to make sure that there is quality in that and what would that look like? Do you see that as a challenge or are you just kind of like, let's just see what happens?Deani Van Pelt:So I love the let's see what happens, but we need to quickly get a balance. As our friend from Boston University, Charlie Glenn would say, "We've got to balance freedom, autonomy, and accountability in education." So I love pluralism in education. It is not a one size fits all. Thank you world for finally realizing we've got a wide diversity of needs and challenges, but let's balance the freedom, the autonomy with accountability. Are we going to get the accountability right? What does that look like state by state, jurisdiction by jurisdiction? That could be our biggest challenge.Jon Eckert:Yeah. No, I like that. And that's a great place to wrap up in that tension. So Deani, thank you for spending time with us today. Love the work you're doing. Really appreciate you taking the time and I'll let you contribute.Deani Van Pelt:Thanks for having me, Jon. It's great to be here.
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Mitch Weathers, the founder of Organized Binder, discusses his work and the importance of teaching executive functioning skills in schools. He explains that his program, Organized Binder, helps students develop organization and executive functioning skills, which are crucial for academic success. Weathers emphasizes the need for explicit instruction and modeling of these skills, as well as the importance of creating safe and predictable learning environments. He also discusses his new book, "Executive Functions for Every Classroom," which provides practical strategies for teachers to implement in their classrooms. Weathers believes that by prioritizing the teaching of executive functioning skills, schools can better support students and help them succeed academically.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Mentioned:Organized BinderExecutive Functions for Every Classroom by Mitch WeathersThe Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy PaulWhat I Talk About When I Talk About Running by Haruki MurakamiEffortless by Greg McKeownHungry Authors Podcast Jon Eckert:Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today, we're here with Mitch Weathers, who started a really fascinating intervention for kids called Organized Binder. That is the dream of every parent, and as a foreign middle school teacher, as a middle school teacher, that was a dream for me. I did my best, but I think I would've loved this tool. So, we're going to welcome Mitch in and then let him introduce himself... Mitch, if you'd just give us a little bit of a sense of what brought you to this work of Organized Binder and what makes you hopeful about it.Mitch Weathers:Thank you, Jon. Super honored, thrilled, humbled to be here and chatting with you. This work came to me early on in my teaching career. I started in the nonprofit space. I was actually a director in a program called Young Life, which you might be familiar with, and I only bring that up to say, developing relationships with kids, young people, I had just really learned to do that and saw the value in leveraging relationships and education and learning.So, when I got into the classroom and I found myself in a big comprehensive Title I public high school teaching for the first time, and I remember clearly my first year or two having more than 40 kids in the class, and these were tough kids, they had struggled academically, most of them multi-language learners. And I just liked being there, the management, the relationships. I just kind of had that in my toolkit. This is all in hindsight, looking back.But I realize now after being in education for over 20 years, those first few years for most teachers, even if they're fresh out of college, it's kind of like learning to interact and communicate with a different species. It's like, "How do I do this part of it and yet I'm hired to do this?"I think there was something there for me that allowed me to focus on, "Why aren't you achieving?" And I had spent a lot of time in graduate school and reading Paul Freire's work and critical pedagogy and equity, and I was just like, "Why aren't you achieving? You're incredibly capable. You've been viewed through a deficit lens, most of your academic experience, I get that. How do we change that narrative?" And then it kind of just dawned on me like, "Oh, you don't know how to do school in the sense that I think maybe you should and certainly you can."And I just started trying to answer the question, what has the greatest impact on student learning and student success. Not that I was an expert. And maybe because I was so new, that being naive to just try stuff and not really know any better. But if I couldn't really have that through line and make that connection with... And I've learned as well, oftentimes in education, we do what was done to us. I get into the class, this is how I experienced it, and now I'm a teacher and I'm going to do some of those things. And it became clear to me, homework, for example, "How am I using homework? Why am I using homework? How is it guiding my instruction? How is it helping students be successful?" And I just tried to answer that question, and from that lace, over the next two years this program now called Organized Binder evolved.Jon Eckert:So, I think any teacher that has spent any time, especially with 40 kids in a classroom, we'll recognize that there is a wide range of executive functioning. And one of the most important things we can do, even more so than what we're doing with our content, I'm a huge proponent of teaching engaging content, because then what's the point of executive functioning? We don't want this to be a compliance exercise, but we do want them to be able to be functioning human beings.And one of the frustrations, and you brought up some philosophers, and you talked about critical theory and Freire, I always got frustrated with the philosophers because it was, "What's the practical benefit of this?" You can write the pedagogy of the oppressed, but ultimately, what I want to know is how do I make that kid's life a little better because of the skills and tools that I've given. And I feel like Organized Binder is a very practical outcome of that. So now, it's a tool that you can sell, that you can go on, you can find it online for sure.But what I love about what you've done is you've broadened that out and now you've got a book that's coming out from Corwin, and it's a new book, Executive Functions for Every Classroom, Creating Safe and Predictable Learning Environments, Grades 3-12. And so, I think when you hear, when a kid hears safe and predictable, or an adult hears that, like, "Oh, that's not very exciting," but in fact, that's the place where learning can really flourish. So, talk a little bit about those principles from Organized Binder that you're now writing about through this book. What would be two or three key takeaways that everyone could apply this week to their teaching?Mitch Weathers:Right. And you touched on it there, there was a bunch of things you said I wanted to respond to.Jon Eckert:Oh, and jump into anything. You know how these go. If you haven't listened to these podcasts before, it's kind of wherever we want them to go. So, Mitch, you feel free to answer whatever you want to answer.Mitch Weathers:Right. Yeah. And I think we're kindreds in the sense of... Here's the way I actually explain it, the idea of developing these skills and habits versus the content, and there's a tension there because teachers are hired to teach content. That's our job. There's no teacher I'm aware of that was hired to teach executive functioning skills and-Jon Eckert:Well, I think some kindergarten teachers, that's the main thing they do. The first grade teachers want those executive functions.Mitch Weathers:Those are the folks that just get it, right? When I'm in conversations with a kinder teacher, they're just like, "Yes." The older, we move up the grades, so you get it. And I like to say it this way, that it's not one's more important than the other. Of course, engaging content and curriculum, all of that. But there is an order of operations that we've missed historically and we've not explicitly taught these skills.And so, yeah, the book was a fun exercise for me because my language and my speaking and teaching and et cetera, et cetera has been kind of through that Organized Binder lens. And I tried to back up from that and say, "Okay, what could we create and provide for teachers, a resource, or educators in general, and I even think parents, that may not be working with an Organized Binder program and they haven't brought it to their school in all of this work we do?"And I will say that both of these, you hit the nail on the head. One thing that I did over and over and over, I went through this summer of, this Freirean summer, I'll call it, in graduate school. I just finished graduate school, and where I'd encountered all this, and I think in my first or second year teaching, and I literally read every book translated into English from him. I couldn't get enough of it.Jon Eckert:You're a better man than I am.Mitch Weathers:But the whole time I was asking myself the question, "So, what's this mean in the modern classroom?" It's amazing. I mean, it's great work. But like you said, how do I translate this? And that's part of that Organized Binder journey. And then, now the next kind of iteration of that is trying to write this book.And I think there's three keys to teaching executive functions. And I'll stop there and say the irony is I don't actually believe that executive functions are taught in the traditional sense of the word. I think they're best learned when students see them modeled for them, hence an organized binder, something I can see. And I get routine practice using them or employing them by virtue of engaging in this predictable learning routine. So, the three keys for teaching executive functions, even though they're not taught, is clarity, routine and modeling.And what I've done is translated... For those that don't know Organized Binder, or let me say it a different way, if you've ever been to an Organized Binder training, you know that we model for you and unpack and explain this daily learning routine, and it's very simple. It's got a very small-time footprint in the classroom. And the reason for that is, I mentioned before, teachers are hired to teach something and they never have enough time to get through that in the first place. So, if I come along with a curriculum on teaching executive functions, where are you going to fit it in? So, there's a time crunch for teachers.So, if we can adopt, and there's a shared component to this, that remind me to come back to that, as sharing the routine, if you will, but if I can implement this really predictable learning routine, which is really just trying to exploit historically underutilized class time, which is the first few minutes and the last few moments of class, can be hard to really extract all we can out of those. But if by virtue, if I create this predictable learning routine... And that's where that safe piece comes in, Jon. I believe the more predictable the learning environment, the safer it is for students. And when students routinely or consistently feel safer, then they're more likely to take risks that are inherent to learning. And that's even truer for students who are navigating chaos outside of school. This profound impact of, "I feel safer here," and it might be one of the moments in my day that I get that experience because I might not at other times.Jon Eckert:And I want to pause right there for a minute because this is one of the things I've been wrestling with. So, I completely agree that that predictability and the safety of knowing this is what the routine is, especially when they're in a world that dis-regulates them all the time, where nothing seems stable, that is safety. It is not boring routine. It's not something to be taken for granted.I feel like though, in some cases, especially for kids that have been marginalized, we have oversold the idea of safety, especially when you get to middle school and high school, where if you're a marginalized kid that's been through a lot of trauma, school's rarely going to feel safe for you. And if you wait until it feels safe to take a risk, you're going to be waiting a long time, because it's really not going to be there for you.So, I've been pushing on this a little bit, saying, "Hey, I think we really want these to be respectful spaces that have space for psychological safety, because it has to be, but we need to be celebrating the risks kids take that don't feel safe." So, how do we highlight that kid that when they're in that predictable, safe space, some of the routines that you're saying, "Hey, this creates this, I think that's right," but then, how do we as educators and with their peers celebrate the courage it takes to speak out when it doesn't feel safe? Because I feel like in some ways we've oversold terms like safe and wellbeing and these other things. If they start to believe that being safe and that their is attended to means that they're not going to be stretched, that's actually counter to what actual learning is.Learning in itself is uncomfortable. It's going a little beyond what you thought you could do. It's a little beyond what you could do the day before. You don't become a better runner by running the same amount every day. You've got to stretch, you've got to speed up, you've got to... And so, we have to keep that in mind, where I think sometimes now we've oversold the wellbeing and the safety. Obviously, those are important. I'm not saying they're not important.Mitch Weathers:I hear you, 100%.Jon Eckert:You know what I mean?Mitch Weathers:Yep.Jon Eckert:So, how do you stretch? And I feel like some of the stuff you're saying is about stretching. Do you agree or disagree? I mean, do you feel like I'm just parsing words here. What are your thoughts?Mitch Weathers:I couldn't agree more. I think there's two words you said there. Well, one, there's the number runner. So, I get that discomfort if you're going to either learn to run longer or learn to run faster, there is that parallel. But celebrating not so much the discomfort, but the willingness to take the risk-Jon Eckert:The courage.Mitch Weathers:Yeah. And celebrate it even if you didn't get the grade. I mean, whatever that context is. I think that celebration part is right. But I love the word you said, respectful spaces. I hit on this in the book, about just cultural competency and who's sitting in the room, what do you know about them as individuals, as cultures. Who's in this learning community, because you can't have respect... I mean, you can respect someone you don't know, I guess. But to really honor and respect them and create those spaces, which yes, have to be safe, but also celebrate that, I think I couldn't agree more. What safety's not, it's like fluffy posters on the wall of two bears hugging each other and some dumb slogan that... It just doesn't even register, especially for the kids you're talking about and the kids that I was working with.Jon Eckert:And so, you mentioned you wanted me to remind you to get back to the shared component of routine. To me, this is part of the shared component of routine because it's not about my individual routine, it's about our routine together. Because there's this social dynamic in a classroom where a teacher can be really efficient, an individual kid can be really efficient, but how do you function as a learning organization in a way that is respectful and celebrates the things that really matter. So, I want to make sure you get back to that shared routine part. But do you see an overlap with this idea of creating a respectful space with this shared routine? Or am I taking you down a tangent that's not helpful?Mitch Weathers:No, I like that because I think anytime a [inaudible 00:14:53], and I've personally experienced this, but the school I was working at, where I spent most of my career as a classroom teacher, the year after Organized Binder was fully baked, the ninth grade adopted it school-wide. And lots of things we can talk about happened there and collective teacher efficacy and all in this together. But what that means, a shared routine could talk about how that reduces cognitive load for kids, especially multi-language kids. But by virtue of something being shared or collective, we have to dialogue about it. What is the common language, what are the common expectations. If our goal as a teaching community or a school is to have respectful learning environments, well, we're all in that, what's that mean together. I think the conversations that come about inherent to that trajectory or that aim are where the real work is done. Where I was mentioning with the routine, that's just one of those shared components.Jon Eckert:Yeah, no, that's good. I mean, when you just described that, it made me think of this book that I had read a year or two ago. It's called The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy Paul. And it's the idea that we offload functions to people that we trust. So, it's that when somebody's been married to someone for 50 years and one of the partners passes away and they say it feels like a part of them died, and in fact, that is true. So, if you have had a partner, so my wife manages all our finances, so in my mind, I've offloaded that part of my brain to her. And so, she passes away, I have lost that part of my mind.And so, in a classroom, I feel like we offload a lot of those things. And so, it doesn't make it so we don't have a high cognitive demand, but it makes it so that the classroom functions at a higher level for everyone because you have different people that are responsible for different components of it. And it's not that you don't learn what you're responsible for, but you function as more than the sum of your parts.Do you see that playing out? Again, I don't know if you've even heard of the extended mind, but when you started sharing that shared routine part, it is this kind of, "How do we collectively do more than we thought we were capable of?" And I think that expands to the school. We're talking classroom, but you mentioned the teachers that you worked with and what happened when you did it at ninth grade. What does that free up for you? Have you seen any aspects where executive functioning is enhanced when you have others leaning into that?Mitch Weathers:Yeah, I think so. And I think it's also worth saying, when it's collective or shared, whether that be grade level, department, school-wide, it's a lot of the work we do, we're talking a lot about students, but there's a number of teachers that struggle with executive dysfunction as well. And just saying-Jon Eckert:I'm one of them at times.Mitch Weathers:I think we all are, right? But I'm just thinking of, and let me know if this answers what you're saying, if that is the teacher, I mean, we've walked into those classrooms where the teacher clearly struggles organizationally, you can just see it when you walk in. And when those teachers are coming together collectively as a community, and I love how you say sum of all the parts, I mention this in the book, that a learning community is the sum of all of its parts. And if someone's not there, then it's changed. It's not the same. It's all about belonging and having kids be a part of the class.But when we come together and we commit and say, "Hey, we're going to implement this routine," let's say, whatever that is shared, if that's an Organized Binder school, and then the training and support that we provide coming in, those teachers, in some ways, I like the analogy, they've kind of offloaded that cognitive load because it's not in their wheelhouse. And all of a sudden, I'm telling you, I've seen this in real time, and I don't like to use the word better, but they're a better teacher. It's just that they haven't gotten around to getting organized or they're-Jon Eckert:Why do you not like using the word better? I mean, isn't that the whole goal? How do we keep-Mitch Weathers:Yeah, I know. I just-Jon Eckert:... getting better. I mean, that's what I think your products and tools do. It helps us be better teachers, better learners. I mean, to me, we have an innate desire to be better. None of us want to be evaluated or judged, but we all want to get better, right?Mitch Weathers:Absolutely.Jon Eckert:So, I love the word better, but yes, own it.Mitch Weathers:Yeah. I like that analogy, when you say, "Can I offload that?" Well, let's say it this way, I can't tell you how many teachers, veteran teachers that have come to me over the last 10 to 20 years and said, "One, this is all the things I always knew I need to be doing, and I either just don't know how to make it a reality or I don't have the time to get to it, and I'm focusing on my content." This is some of the most humbling experiences in this, it's saying, "This work literally saved my career. I was going to retire this year and I went to a presentation and I'm so invigorated again."But here's the deal. This is maybe that offloading piece, is I don't ever want to be responsible for conducting a talk or a keynote or a presentation or a professional development training that inspires educators, but requires so much work on the backside to make it a reality. This is that Freirian thing you're saying, even if it's great, it's going to end up on the shelf and less likely to be implemented. So, it's back to that practical... If a teacher or a school leader reads this book tomorrow in class, there's things that can be started, there's conversations that can be had with the staff around those strategies. It's very practical and relevant in that sense.Jon Eckert:So, I'm kind of bummed Corwin didn't ask me to endorse the book, because then I would've already been able to read it. So, I'll have to pick it up on my own. But this will be a good read. I think there's a lot of overlap between what I write about and what you're doing, and so, love that. So, thank you for that.I want to go to our lightning round here. So, one of the things that, I want to start with this one, so it's a word, sentence or phrase that a teacher could do tomorrow to help with executive functioning of their students that wouldn't take any extra work on their part, would just be a streamlining of something they already do or something... Is there something, because again, I'm all with you, I do not want teachers who already have overflowing plates to feel like whatever I share with them is adding another thing to the plate, so, can you think of something in the book that's like, "Hey, you can do this. It wouldn't actually take any more time, but it would be life-giving for you and your students." Anything that pops to mind?Mitch Weathers:What pops to mind is organization. Of the six skills, the six executive functions outlined in this book, the inherent Organized Binder, not one is more important than the other, but I do think the starting place is a simple table of contents and organizing the curriculum and content that's already there. It would take almost, I'm not going to say no extra time, but if you read that chapter, we're talking, especially once it's in place, if it's just a step in the routine, we do this and then we update our table of contents, what happens, and there's some stories that we don't have time for right now that I tell in the book. Students and teachers feel better when they're organized, and maybe it should just be humans feel better when we're organized.And once I can get organized, then I kind of feel like I have the capacity to learn and practice some of these other skills. It's hard to engage with the learning community when I don't even know where my stuff is. I can't tell you as a parent, you've probably been there, every parent has, trying to help their kid with homework and it's like, "Do you have anything from school today from math?" But if you do, it's a starting place. So, I hope that answers your question.Jon Eckert:It does. And I have to tell you, and it just hit as you were sharing that, when I first started teaching, I started teaching fifth grade, and I had a veteran teacher who taught fifth grade right next to me, Priscilla Lane, who was one of the best teachers I ever worked with. And she walked in about two or three weeks before every unit, and she would hand me a binder that she had copied and made and had a cover for each of the major units we were going to do. And she told me, "The best gift I can give you as a new teacher is organization." And it totally made my beginning year-Mitch Weathers:You were lucky.Jon Eckert:I was so lucky because it was good stuff. And she shared it freely and she gave it to me in this organized way, where all of a sudden everything made sense. So then when I moved to Tennessee, I went to Vanderbilt for my doctoral work, and when I was there, I was going through a doctoral program and I started teaching middle school science, which I'd never taught before.And what I did was I came in and I made a binder of, I took all of the standards for seventh grade science and I distilled them down into 25 essential questions, five main units. So, I had five binders for each of the units, and it made it so... By then, I'd been teaching for eight years and I could apply what she had done for me at the beginning. And it allowed me to not be overwhelmed in the middle of a doctoral program while I was coaching and teaching and doing all these things, because it was manageable and it was in a binder. So, there you go. So, the theme runs through.All right, so we did a terrible job on that first lightning round question. And I'm always terrible at the lightning round, but it's an aspiration.Mitch Weathers:Is the lightning round meant to be a lightning response too, quick?Jon Eckert:Yes.Mitch Weathers:Okay. I'll try it this time.Jon Eckert:I'm terrible. This one's easier. Favorite book you've read in the last year?Mitch Weathers:Okay. I can only pick one?Jon Eckert:One of your top five. Just pick one.Mitch Weathers:Okay. I'm just going to go random on this because I really enjoyed it. What I Talk About When I Talk About Running, and I'm going to butcher the author's last name, he's a Japanese novelist who wrote this non-fiction kind of memoir book about running, What I Talk About When I Talk About Running. And it's just a great read, and keep in mind, Jon, and anyone listening, in the last year, I read more books in the last year, including I think your latest, Just Teaching, which I absolutely loved. And then left it at a house this summer, where I had holed up to finish off my manuscript, and I brought all these books that I had been reading over the last year and left them all at this house on the coast. And I've been working at the rental place. I don't know, they might be gone. Anyway, this book, I'm long distance trail runner and I'm always kind of pushing myself, again, through line. And this was just a great read.Jon Eckert:Okay. No, I just pulled it up, and I will not attempt to say the author's name either, but it looks fascinating. It's a memoir, so I love the course. That's great.No, and when you're writing a book, you read so many things. I mean, I always read a lot, but when I'm in the middle of a book, I'm always trying to pull in like, "Okay, oh, there's that."Mitch Weathers:Constant.Jon Eckert:And then, your brain is just on overload, then you have to organize it, you have to dump. I have files where I've dumped all kinds of things, so I'm with you. All right.Mitch Weathers:Can I just say one thing about that because you said, "Then you have to organize it," it actually just released sometime, I'll say it released in mid-January, I was on a podcast with, it's called the Hungry Authors podcast, and we talked about book mapping. Basically, if I didn't have a map, there is no way I would've completed the task. And you probably know that better than me.Jon Eckert:Well, I've written a lot of stuff. I could have completed a task, no one would've wanted to read it.Mitch Weathers:Maybe that's the way.Jon Eckert:So, I could have written something, it just wouldn't have been intelligible. So, yeah, I'm with you. All right, so best advice you've ever received?Mitch Weathers:Oh, gosh, good one. You can't go wrong treating people right.Jon Eckert:Oh, I've not gotten that one before. I like that.Mitch Weathers:A friend of mine said that. I was listening to one of his webinars or a talk he was giving and he said it and didn't even remember saying it. And I wrote it down in my journal like, "Wow, let's just lean into that."Jon Eckert:Similar. I had a friend who's a pre-K teacher, and he shared once, he's like, "No profession can compete with the spark between souls that occurs between teachers and students." And it was just this offhanded comment. But ever since, I've just been like, "Oh, that's it."Mitch Weathers:If you've experienced that, that is true.Jon Eckert:That's what gets you coming back. So, I love those offhanded quotes of people who aren't famous and never will be famous, but just to have an insight that's like, "Oh," it's kind of a breakthrough moment.So, all right, worst piece of advice you've ever received?Mitch Weathers:That's a tough one, Jon. I try to obviously not remember those.Does anyone ever get stumped by these questions?Jon Eckert:I like the pauses because it feels authentic. I will say the one we get 80% of the time on that one is when they first started teaching, they were told not to smile until Thanksgiving. And that whole idea that you communicate that you're in charge by basically not communicating any immediacy or appreciation of another is horrific advice. So, our job is, teaching is one of the most human things we do. And to just take out any facial connection would be-Mitch Weathers:Oh, gosh.Jon Eckert:It was what was challenging during COVID, when we had masks covering half our faces, we could not read people. I mean, you can tell some from the eyes, but you're missing half of your visual cues on a face. And so, to tell people to not smile, I mean, what a horrific way to live and teach. So, I get that one a lot.I'm glad you have a hard time remembering worst advice.Mitch Weathers:Well, yeah, I was thinking more like big life bad advice.Jon Eckert:Well, that's good too.Mitch Weathers:But I can tell you, if you want to stay in the teacher vein, I had a different experience with the veteran teacher down the hall, who was very caring and stopped by, and was there... I'm a pretty early riser. She would be there before me and she would be leaving with the custodial staff at night. And she had children at home and married. And I remember asking her about it, because even me as a new teacher, and again, I didn't get into the classroom until late twenties, early thirties, so I had these other experiences, but I was like, "I feel like you're," I didn't say this to her, "But you're working too much. This isn't a sustainable model." Yet she's this veteran teacher and she told me... I asked her about her family and whatnot and she said, "Well, the way I structure it, and I encourage you to think about this, is family time is summer and work time is the school year." And I was like, "Wow." And she just worked and worked and worked.Here's what I gleaned from that, is just working hard and long hours is not necessarily being effective. We can be efficient and be effective, and that's that... What exactly is going to have an impact on students? And if it doesn't, why am I doing it and how can I shift and be more efficient, more effective, that kind of thing.So, I guess, I'd lump that into some advice. I didn't take her advice. I mean, I definitely, of course, like any new teacher, was there with her quite a bit, which is why we had these conversations after dark and no one else on campus. But I love to become more efficient.Jon Eckert:Yeah, I think so many teachers do follow that burnout as a badge of honor and that everything requires the extra mile and they get into this exhausting framing. Greg McKeown talks about it in his book, Effortless, how do we make the work we do life giving. And a quick way to have more time for work is to continue that kind of principle because you all of a sudden aren't going to have a family. If nine months out of the year this is for school and you get the three months here, that obviously doesn't work in a sustainable way for many, many people. I lump that into bad advice.The last question, we'll end on a positive note. What's your best hope for education as you look ahead right now?Mitch Weathers:I absolutely know what I want to say about that as opposed to the last question. I think we're just now beginning to see the impacts and effects and learn from what happened over the last four years, the first year of the pandemic on students in particular. If there's one silver lining for the work that I'm really passionate about is I've spent a lot of years, Jon, trying to, I wouldn't say convince, but a lot of years talking about, "Hey, all these skills and habits that we kind of formally hoped students developed on their own, we have to explicitly teach and model these. This is what lays the foundation for learning. This is what builds capacity and agency and all that."It seems now, and especially in the last 12 months, there's a collective shift to like, "We need to be doing that." The number of inquiries that are coming in through the Organized Binder site or people interested about the book, and here's the crazy thing, on every continent, I'm fortunate enough to have these wonderful conversations and work with people literally on every continent and every school is saying almost the exact same thing, that there's these gaps or there's an impact from that time on students and, "What are we going to do?" And if they've fallen behind in math, just giving them two math classes to accelerate them, we all know that's not going to work. So, I see a very hope future if we'll all take the teaching of executive functioning skills as serious as we do our content, curriculum, testing and technology, all these things that have their place in education, don't get me wrong, but that's what I'm hopeful for.Jon Eckert:Love that. So, looking forward to reading your book, Executive Functions for Every Classroom, Creating Safe and Predictable Learning Environments, Grades 3-12. This is from Corwin. So, really appreciate you taking the time, Mitch. It's great to have you and look forward to seeing the work that you continue to do.Mitch Weathers:Appreciate it, Jon. Thanks for having me.
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I really hope that you will join me for this episode because I had a truly inspiring conversation with John Walker, the superintendent of Central Christian School in Kansas. John shares his nontraditional journey into education, emphasizing the importance of building a supportive community of leaders around him, and we delve into the challenges he faces as a school leader and how he leads with vulnerability, inviting others into messy conversations to solve problems and make decisions.
John's commitment to creating an affectionate school culture, where teachers, students, and parents flourish together, really stands out, and we also explore the idea that leadership doesn't have to be lonely; instead, it's about fostering collaboration and support!
Join us for insights into leadership, vulnerability, and the joy found in the lives of students. It's a conversation filled with wisdom and a refreshing perspective on the future of education!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - My guest today is John Walker, a humble education leader who exemplifies communal leadership.
[2:05] - John traces his path from public school to Bible college, discussing his higher education roles and being superintendent.
[5:30] - John humbly acknowledges his imperfections, sharing a recent parenting struggle and emphasizing vulnerability.
[8:12] - I humorously suggest that John became a school head to get parenting advice, highlighting vulnerability and humility.
[9:38] - John highlights the importance of team collaboration and seeking advice.
[11:56] - John emphasizes the value of seeking input from a supportive community when facing challenges.
[13:37] - We both agree that leadership does not need to be lonely.
[14:58] - John shares that he feels immense joy in witnessing the positive impact on students' lives at his school.
[17:46] - Learn what John's favorite book of 2023 is: The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer.
[18:14] - Hear both the worst advice and best advice that John has ever heard about being an educator.
[20:18] - John characterizes his optimistic view of education in 2024 as being affectionate.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Books Mentioned:
John Mark Comer - The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry: How to Stay Emotionally Healthy and Spiritually Alive in the Chaos of the Modern World
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I am so thrilled to introduce our latest episode featuring the incredible Lauren Houser, who brings seventeen years of experience as an assistant principal. Lauren shares her journey from unexpected twists, like taking a year off after graduation, to finding her true calling in education.
We also dive deep into topics like the power of building relationships through looping (did you know Finland does it for up to six years?), the importance of failing forward in education, and how to lead well even when values clash. Plus, we even explore Lauren's unique perspective on discipline as the "playground of life" and why creating a culture of trust is at the heart of overcoming challenges.
This is a candid conversation filled with incredible insights that will resonate with educators at all levels. You definitely won't want to miss this one!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Hear an introduction providing some information about Lauren’s credentials.
[2:01] - Lauren's journey into education took an unexpected turn from traditional teaching to looping through grades.
[3:47] - Lauren shares how her educational journey continued as she transitioned from a teacher to an instructional coach.
[5:30] - I discuss the positive impact of looping in education, emphasizing the importance of deep student-teacher relationships.
[7:30] - Lauren highlights the significance of elementary teachers as experts in understanding and connecting with students.
[9:54] - Focusing on common values when working with diverse leadership styles is crucial.
[11:45] - Lauren emphasizes influential leadership, prioritizing relationships, and applies Leander's pillars—collaboration, ownership, improvement cycles, and resilience.
[13:20] - I underscore the importance of influence in leadership and explore the concept of strategic failure.
[15:04] - Lauren highlights the necessity of strategic failure in education, emphasizing the importance of reflection and growth.
[18:05] - How does Lauren lean into her core mission and calling in her role as an educational leader?
[20:23] - The role of sincerity in restoring community in education is discussed.
[22:00] - What is some good advice and bad advice that Lauren has received?
[25:08] - Lauren discusses the profound challenge of overcoming distrust and fear in education communities.
[26:12] - What makes Lauren most optimistic about the year ahead?
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Books Mentioned:
Clay Scroggins - How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge: Leveraging Influence When You Lack Authority
Amy C. Edmondson - Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well
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Join me for this episode of Just Schools as I have a fascinating conversation with Shaun Brooker, a former rugby player turned school leader from New Zealand!
Listen in as we explore Shaun's journey into education, driven by his experiences at youth camps and his love for motivating students to push their limits. Shaun sheds light on his role in developing user-friendly systems for teachers, emphasizing the importance of meaningful engagement over mere busy work.
The discussion also touches on the strategic use of technology in education, with Shaun sharing insights into a game plan approach to identify and address students' individual needs. Furthermore, Shaun provides a glimpse into the unique aspects of the New Zealand education system, including the freedom to design classroom spaces and the integration of Christian truths into the curriculum.
I hope that you will join us as we dive into the nuances of education, engagement, and the distinctive features of New Zealand's educational landscape.
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Today’s guest is Shaun Brooker!
[1:35] - Shaun's journey into education, inspired by youth camps, reflects a passion for motivating and teaching children.
[2:56] - Shaun, shaped by rugby in New Zealand, took his passion overseas, playing and coaching various sports.
[4:54] - Shaun advocates for user-friendly systems, prioritizing meaningful student engagement to ensure every classroom moment is purposeful.
[6:48] - Shaun's game plan prioritizes individual recognition, zone of proximal development, and relational strategies for engagement.
[8:47] - Shaun emphasizes the effectiveness of the game plan in addressing student engagement, leading to positive outcomes.
[10:33] - Shaun draws parallels between church engagement and artificial intelligence, emphasizing the importance of emotional connection and human elements in learning.
[13:23] - Shaun emphasizes the shift from knowledge to wisdom, highlighting the importance of a meaningful relationship with Christ and responsible technology use.
[14:57] - Shaun aligns the SAMR model with a matrix for purposeful education technology integration.
[17:33] - Shaun raises the bar for students by creating an engaging album, emphasizing meaningful technology use.
[18:45] - I underscore education in wisdom tied to God, and I emphasize tech as tools for growth.
[21:02] - Shaun values the New Zealand curriculum's flexibility, enabling teachers to tailor lessons based on competencies.
[23:15] - Learn about New Zealand's education system, which is funded by taxpayers and fosters engaging, contextual learning.
[27:02] - Shaun identifies Erin Meyer's The Culture Map as the best book he read in 2023.
[27:49] - Hear the best advice and the worst advice that Shaun has heard as an educator.
[29:18] - What encourages and gives hope to Shaun about education in the future?
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Books Mentioned:
Erin Meyer - The Culture Map
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I'm so thrilled to share today's episode with you. I am joined today by Matt and Eric as we dive deep into well-being, belonging, and the fascinating world of education. Matt and Eric are wonderful educators in Canada and are doing remarkable work in fostering a sense of belonging for international students and enhancing the well-being of every student in their respective schools.
In this engaging conversation, we explore their unique approaches to creating a vibrant school culture, from multicultural clubs to innovative events like multicultural weeks. Matt, the Vice Principal and International Student Coordinator at Woodland Christian High School, shares his insights into redefining the narrative around international students, emphasizing the importance of fostering genuine relationships and a sense of belonging. Meanwhile, Eric, Athletic Director and teacher at King's Christian Collegiate, sheds light on the collective efforts to prioritize student well-being, especially in the post-pandemic landscape.
As we delve into the challenges and triumphs of education, we touch upon the impactful concept of restorative justice and its varied implementations. Discover how these educators are navigating the evolving educational landscape, tackling issues such as technology barriers, and instilling empathy as a core value in students. Tune in, and join us for this enlightening educational discussion!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Today’s guests are Matt Hazenberg and Eric Bulthuis!
[1:43] - Matt is the vice principal international student coordinator at Woodland Christian High School in Kitchener, Ontario, inspired by childhood teachers and a passion for learning.
[2:21] - Matt has been teaching since September 2015.
[2:26] - Eric, at King's Christian Collegiate in Oakville, Ontario, embraces education inspired by his parents, both of whom were teachers.
[3:58] - Matt explains how he transformed the international student program at his school, prioritizing belonging through a multicultural approach.
[6:56] - Eric emphasizes the importance of student well-being and implementing diverse programs.
[9:20] - Addressing student discipline, Matt emphasizes a restorative justice approach to mend relationships and build community.
[11:31] - Eric notes the universal care and love in handling discipline, emphasizing shared values across diverse schools.
[12:34] - Matt discusses alternatives to student removal, highlighting a Mennonite-inspired approach.
[15:17] - Eric envisions a collective effort for student well-being, emphasizing unity and collaboration in achieving goals.
[16:18] - Matt emphasizes the post-pandemic challenge of re-establishing school culture, aiming for renewed student interactions and engagement.
[19:16] - Matt stresses the value of collective effort, acknowledging individual limitations and the need for collaboration.
[19:37] - Eric received advice to avoid smiling until November for classroom management but disagrees, choosing to prioritize building connections.
[20:33] - The best piece of advice that Matt received was about the importance of learning to say no and set boundaries for well-being.
[21:00] - Eric advocates for the transformative power of loving first, erasing labels like "bad kids" for a better teaching experience.
[21:44] - Addressing the challenge of technology barriers, Matt aims to foster present community engagement beyond just the classroom.
[22:17] - Eric emphasizes the crucial task of teaching and fostering empathy for a more compassionate future.
[22:37] - I emphasize leading with love and fostering empathy, viewing AI as an exciting yet challenging educational prospect.
[23:37] - Matt envisions Christian school educators expanding their network, fostering collaboration and learning across North America and beyond.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Resources Mentioned:
Rita Pierson - “Every kid needs a champion” TED Talk
Bob Goff - Love Does: Discover a Secretly Incredible Life in an Ordinary World
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I am so excited to have my best friend Erik Ellefsen on the podcast today to reflect on the highlights of 2023 in education and set our sights on what excites us in 2024!
Erik, with his extensive global school experiences, shares insights into the joy he finds in the brilliance of educators and the challenges they overcome. We delve into memorable school visits, from the historic Windsor Castle to the modest Reagan Ranch, sparking thoughts on the impact of educational experiences.
We discuss the transformative power of engagement and how it resonates through the pages of my book Just Teaching, and we enthuse over a favorite school visit featuring fifth graders in England joyfully embracing hands-on learning despite the constant rain. As we look ahead to 2024, we ponder the importance of becoming more human in our work, emphasizing the value of genuine connection and collaboration in an era dominated by technological advancements.
I can’t wait for you to join us in this engaging conversation, which is definitely one of my favorite episodes of the podcast so far. It’s filled with laughter, insights, and a touch of the ridiculousness that makes the journey of education all the more enjoyable!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Reflecting on positive developments in education in 2023, Erik Ellefson and I are discussing anticipated exciting prospects for 2024.
[1:57] - What has brought me joy in 2023?
[3:59] - I share the joy of meaningful work in Southeast Asia, highlighting family involvement and achieving balance.
[4:40] - Erik highlights speaking at Windsor Castle and visiting Rancho del Cielo, noting the unique experiences.
[6:51] - Erik expresses joy in working with a San Jose elementary school, emphasizing their commitment to improvement.
[8:21] - Hear about a standout moment in England involving fifth graders' enthusiasm for hands-on, low-tech learning.
[11:51] - What am I more convinced is important in schools after having written Just Schools?
[14:26] - Erik agrees that engagement is important, emphasizing its priority over temporary provisions for wellbeing.
[17:24] - Erik highlights the importance of cultivating a culture of celebration and support in professional settings.
[19:26] - Erik doubles down on the importance of collaborative, collective leadership in addressing deep-rooted issues in education.
[20:49] - I envision the next book focusing on catalytic leadership and building thriving learning communities collaboratively.
[22:46] - I hope for a more human approach in the face of advancing technology, emphasizing grace, challenge, love, and fun in collaborative work.
[25:54] - Hear Erik and I share our favorite books of 2023.
[26:55] - Erik asserts that phones being used for non-educational purposes in schools is frustrating.
[28:22] - Hear us discuss the positive, hopeful aspects of artificial intelligence.
[29:31] - Have fun doing the work!
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Books Mentioned:
Jonathan Eckert - Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student
Bob Drury - The Heart of Everything That Is: The Untold Story of Red Cloud, An American Legend
David Brooks - How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen
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I hope that you will join me for this episode as I sit down with Anna Surratt, a remarkable educator with nearly two decades of teaching experience in both public and Christian schools. We delve into her expertise in empathy-based leadership and design thinking, exploring how these tools contribute to fostering strong relationships and creating positive change in the education landscape.
Anna shares insightful stories from her journey, highlighting the importance of vulnerability and trust in building a culture of improvement. We also touch on the power of improvement networks, where schools come together to address shared challenges, emphasizing the courage that arises from vulnerability.
As we navigate the complexities of education, our conversation reveals the transformative impact of focusing on relationships, understanding perspectives, and striving for continuous improvement. Please listen in for a conversation filled with wisdom and inspiration as we explore the heart of education and the pursuit of positive change!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Learn a bit about today’s guest, Anna Surratt.
[2:05] - Anna dives deeper into her background.
[4:40] - Anna describes a challenging hotel experience, highlighting discomfort and safety concerns during a work trip.
[7:17] - Hear how Anna champions design thinking.
[9:35] - Anna identifies clarity as crucial to fostering innovation.
[12:52] - Anna strongly emphasizes the importance of trust.
[14:27] - Vulnerability sparks courage, fostering deep empathy and collaborative progress toward shared goals.
[16:23] - Anna highlights how a heartbreaking tale of an educator craving impactful feedback spurred a leadership quest for change.
[18:16] - What is the best advice and worst advice that Anna has ever received?
[19:47] - Staffing is what concerns Anna the most about the upcoming year.
[21:32] - Anna argues that teachers need to be empowered by connecting actions to real student outcomes.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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Join me this week on the podcast as I delve into a conversation with Colin Roe, a middle school technology and Bible teacher at Faith Christian School. Colin shares insights into the challenges of technology in education and emphasizes the importance of using it to build relationships with students, and he and I explore topics such as digital citizenship, the impact of technology on students' well-being, and the need for positive interactions face to face. Colin also discusses practical ways he leverages technology, like the use of Quizlet and Menti, to enhance learning experiences for his students. As we navigate the complexities of technology in education, Colin's perspective offers a balance between caution and hope, grounded in a desire to make teaching more human.
During our conversation, we also address the pervasive issue of students' heavy reliance on technology such as smartphones, sharing alarming statistics that highlight the negative impact of excessive screen time on mental health. Colin also sheds light on the rise of narcissism in young children due to the lack of face-to-face interactions caused by parents' phone use during critical developmental years.
Despite such challenges, however, Colin provides valuable advice to educators, encouraging them to prioritize positive, face-to-face interactions with students to foster a sense of care and connection. Join us on this episode as we explore the dynamic intersection of technology and humanity in education!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Today’s guest is middle school Technology and Bible teacher Colin Roe.
[1:42] - Colin shares some background information about himself with us.
[3:31] - Digital citizenship educates students on responsible technology use, fostering positive relationships and countering loneliness.
[6:07] - I emphasize enhancing, not replacing, interpersonal connections, aiming to counter students' worth tied to online metrics.
[7:24] - Colin fosters meaningful interaction by eliminating cell phones in school, encouraging diverse discussions and promoting genuine connections during events.
[10:10] - Colin underscores the effects of excessive phone use on students' mental well-being.
[12:14] - I advocate for reframing phone use as an addition, not a subtraction, in education.
[14:49] - It's important for adults to model healthy technology behavior for children.
[16:13] - Colin highlights a study showing a rise in narcissism in young children due to parental phone use.
[17:46] - Hear how Colin uses technology to communicate with his team, provide feedback, and connect with students.
[19:20] - Colin identifies his favorite education technology to be Quizlet.
[20:35] - I highlight the challenge of academic integrity in an age of ever evolving technology.
[22:38] - What does Colin like about Menti?
[24:32] - Colin emphasizes the important role of face-to-face positive interactions with students.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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I had the honor and privilege to talk with Jami Courson, a dedicated high school teacher in Texas, whose journey in education has been nothing short of transformative. Despite initially aiming for a career in medicine, Jami found her calling in teaching and coaching, and over her 22 years in the profession, she has faced burnout and challenges but discovered renewed purpose through community and faith.
Tune in as Jami candidly shares her experiences, highlighting the struggles educators face, from emotional exhaustion to financial strain. We delve into the complexities of teaching in the current landscape, where students often perceive school as irrelevant.
Jami’s story is truly one of resilience, faith, and the power of community. Join us as we explore the value of education, the importance of authentic relationships with students, and the ways in which teachers can find fulfillment and purpose amidst the challenges of our profession. Together, let's rediscover the true significance of education and inspire a generation to see school not just as a necessity, but as something profoundly valuable!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:40] - Today’s interview is with Texas teacher Jami Courson.
[2:22] - Jami shares her path from being an aspiring doctor to a dedicated educator.
[3:52] - Jami has been teaching for 22 years.
[4:41] - Jami was worn out but found renewed purpose after a pivotal meeting.
[7:26] - Jami feels that educators are missing and crave a sense of community.
[10:24] - Inadequate compensation strains educators.
[12:45] - Jami argues that teachers must advocate for policy change.
[14:58] - Teachers are embracing leadership, seeking ways to improve schools while backed by supportive administrators.
[16:48] - Hear a personal example from Jami of teachers providing critical support for students.
[19:45] - What is the worst advice and the best advice that Jami has received as an educator?
[20:55] - By authentically living her faith, Jami answers students' questions and fosters connections.
[23:33] - Jami feels that many students see school as irrelevant.
[24:12] - Jami wants her students to see education as not only relevant but also valuable.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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Tune into this episode of the show because I am thrilled to introduce you to two extraordinary educators, Gaby Garcia and Kim Poe, from Augustine Prep in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. These incredible individuals are transforming communities on the South Side of Milwaukee, where their school is located. What's truly inspiring is how their efforts have significantly impacted the neighborhood; crime rates dropped by a staggering 42% after OG Prep's presence. Now, they're expanding to a new campus on the North Side, aiming to create integrated campuses that empower students and families alike.
Together, Gaby and Kim share their unique journeys into education, highlighting the school's core values centered around faith, family, and community. You'll hear about their innovative approach, fostering a culture of trust, growth, and belonging among students, all while witnessing profound life-giving moments.
Join us as we explore the challenges, hopes, and transformative power of education, and discover how these dedicated educators are making a real difference in the lives of their students!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Today’s guests are Gaby Garcia and Kim Poe of Augustine Prep!
[1:59] - Gaby gives us some background information.
[3:17] - Hear a little bit about Kim and her background.
[5:27] - Kim emphasizes a family-oriented, safe, and supportive environment for students and the community.
[8:11] - Kim prioritizes feedback, student engagement, and well-being.
[10:27] - Gaby empowers high school students as leaders, fostering confidence, professionalism, and community involvement.
[13:35] - Kim highlights powerful moments of faith and unity among students, inspiring her daily.
[15:02] - Gaby highlights a story of a freshman's unwavering faith and leadership influence.
[17:29] - Kim discusses plans for a new Offsite Prep School in Milwaukee, focusing on equal opportunities and innovative education.
[19:42] - I emphasize the importance of excellence in education at Prep, praising leadership.
[21:36] - What's the best advice Gaby and Kim have received as educators?
[23:51] - Gaby finds hope in addressing educational disparities.
[25:10] - Kim acknowledges Milwaukee's racial segregation, focusing on bridging gaps especially on new campuses.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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Listen in today as I sit down with Bryan Goodwin, President and CEO of McREL International, and an experienced educator, to explore the intersection of science, art, and the joy found in teaching. We dive into the phases of learning, discussing how curiosity is the key to engaging students, followed by commitment, focus, consolidation, practice, reflection, and finally, extension and application.
We also emphasize the importance of planning for learning rather than just teaching and how understanding the science of learning can bring true joy to the classroom, and we touch upon the challenges educators face, such as burnout, and how elevating the teaching profession and fostering a culture of curiosity can lead to more joyful and fulfilling learning experiences.
Join us as we share insights and inspiration for creating joyful, curious, and engaging learning environments!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[0:37] - Today’s guest is Bryan Goodwin of McREL International.
[2:15] - What drew Bryan to education?
[2:52] - Bryan’s first job was in Saint Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands.
[4:53] - Bryan argues that understanding the 'why' behind teaching fosters engagement.
[6:36] - Engagement and commitment are fundamental; teaching must inspire curiosity and active involvement.
[8:30] - Bryan points out how short-term memory is limited; effective teaching utilizes visuals and keeps content concise.
[10:28] - Bryan explains how repetition enhances memory and retention.
[12:33] - It's important not just to remember knowledge but to have done something meaningful with it.
[13:16] - Bryan adds that designing learning around how kids' brains work makes teaching easier and more joyful.
[16:05] - Experienced teachers, similar to veteran quarterbacks, adapt strategies based on students' needs and engagement.
[17:45] - Teacher burnout and fatigue is what worries Bryan the most.
[19:41] - Bryan finds hope in the power of curiosity, making education engaging and impactful.
[21:19] - Positive classroom environments and meaningful work in Australia effectively retain engaged teachers.
[23:51] - Bryan describes current United States education as fatigued.
[24:01] - Bryan hopes to see schools become more joyful and curious.
[24:14] - Hear some helpful advice for educators.
[25:03] - We are encouraged to write, blog, and refine because sharing ideas builds expertise.
[26:02] - In conclusion, we want schools to move from fatigue to joy and curiosity.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, join me (your host Jon Eckert) as I sit down with Sierra Downs and Eli Spector, two remarkable educators from Front Range Christian School in Colorado!
We explore the wonder and magic that defines their school environment, fostering academic excellence and student well-being. Through their authentic experiences, we discover the power of relational leadership and the impact of teachers like Phil Schultz and Kelly Stidham, who inspire through quirkiness and honesty.
Their story encapsulates the essence of collective leadership, offering a glimpse into the transformative potential of education, so tune in for a brief yet heartfelt discussion on the joy found in genuine connections within the teaching profession!
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[1:47] - Sierra introduces herself.
[3:13] - Eli shares some information about himself with us.
[4:46] - Sierra feels that educators create magic, fostering wonder, holistic growth, and academic excellence.
[7:02] - Eli credits Phil Schultz for embracing quirkiness in the classroom.
[9:00] - Sierra mentions Kelly Stidham, the head English teacher, who embodies honesty, mastery, and genuine love in the classroom.
[12:30] - Sierra emphasizes celebrating teachers' professional successes.
[14:15] - Eli and Sierra work collectively which promotes emotional fulfillment.
[17:05] - Sierra adds that with collective leadership, relational modeling fosters genuine change and influence.
[19:00] - Experiencing laughter, learning, and affirmation in education's network effect was impactful for Sierra.
[20:41] - Eli feels reinvigorated by the shared optimism and determination in education.
[22:36] - Sierra and Eli wrap up with some advice for educators.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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It's time to start looking at younger teachers as a place where we can develop leadership.
Two young educators, Brittany Griffith and Meredith Frey, join host Jon Eckert. Brittany is a teacher in Frisco and Meredith is a teacher in San Antonio. Today, they discuss what has made them passionate about their education careers and what has pushed them to gain their master's degrees in Educational Leadership.
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[1:45] - Meredith and Brittany introduce themselves.
[5:50] - The two women discuss what made them decide to get a master's in School Leadership.
[9:30] - Meredith discusses finding her why.
[12:00] - Brittany appreciates Baylor's program being rooted in God.
[15:40] - Everyone in the cohort celebrates each other, not competes with each other.
[18:20] - Everyone has a novice advantage.
[20:20] - Starting every day with humility is key.
[21:20] - The women share their most embarrassing teaching moments.
[23:00] - Jon puts the two women through a lightning round of questions.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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Traditional schools don't work for every student.
Nikki Bell is both a parent and an educator from Oklahoma. When she noticed her son didn't fit into traditional public school, she decided to homeschool. She is now a board member at a classical school. Classical schools focus on truth, beauty and wisdom and how we pursue those things. Today she joins host Jon Eckert to discuss her journey to becoming an educator.
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[2:06] - Nikki introduces herself.
[5:30] - Putting her kids in classical school changed the way Nikki parented.
[10:00] - There are plenty of advantages to the classical movement.
[12:10] - Nikki's kids have learned how to articulate their opinion and beliefs.
[14:05] - A difference of opinion is not challenging the person.
[18:00] - Nikki has high hopes for her children's future.
[20:03] - Jon puts Nikki through a lightning round of questions.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Books:
Atomic Habits by James Clear
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Education within the prison system is a challenge. From access to technology to access to books.
Bing Parks is an educator who loves her students but never wants to see her students in her classroom again. That's because she works in the Texas Juvenile Department. Her students range in age from 11 to 18 years old. Today she joins host Jon Eckert to discuss how she uses engagement to drive her students' well-being.
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[1:50] - Bing introduces herself.
[3:35] - Providing supplies to students in the prison system is a challenge.
[6:40] - There are some advantages in Bing's work setting.
[9:00] - Building relationships with students is the most important thing.
[11:40] - Bing shares a recent success story.
[17:00] - Jon puts Bing through a lightning round of questions.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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Truly engaging students goes beyond entertainment. Having meaningful two-way discussions is one way to create authentic engagement.
Aaron Bond has over two decades of education experience. Over his career, he's employed the Harkness Method to engage his students. Today, he joins host Jon Eckert to candidly discuss what he's learned throughout the year. Their conversation focuses on how throughout his career, Aaron encourages his students to love well and truly engage his students.
To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
Be encouraged.
Timestamps:
[2:35] - Aaron shares an embarrassing story from his early days working.
[9:00] - Learning from your life experience to become more wise.
[12:30] - Building a network of understanding helps students put what they've learned into practice.
[16:30] - You have to be comfortable with watching students struggle.
[18:00] - Allow dead space in your classroom.
[23:40] - Aaron shares a story about two unengaged students.
[26:11] - Jon puts Aaron through a lightning round of questions.
Connect on Social Media:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Baylor Doctorate in Education
Jon Eckert: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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