226: Unlocking Success: Conversations with Barry Klein on Cultural Alignment, Recruitment, and Customer Service Delivery with Barry Klein

26 mrt · Navigating the Customer Experience

00:27:24

Barry Klein is Vice president of Success and Enablement at Austin-Based Talroo, the data driven job and hiring event advertising platform that helps businesses reach the candidates they need to build their essential workforce. Barry provides leadership to Talroo’s team of Customer Success Analysts who have both revenue and customer service responsibilities for multiple verticals.

Passionate about establishing “customers” as “partners”, he focuses on long-term relationships, lifetime value and establishing raving fans. With more than 30 years of experience in customer-facing and executive roles, including Vice President of Sales Engineering for Vignette Corp, Barry also spent several years running his own small business and consultancy. Barry holds a BS in Computer Science from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.

Questions

· We always like to hear from our guests in their own words, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

· Can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you believe recruitment is so important as it relates to customer service delivery?

· In terms of how do we hire well and focus on cultural alignment? And I imagine this begins in the interview process. What are three main things that you believe if you're tasked with that responsibility for an organization, where would you put your focus, maybe three top areas that you put your focus on if we're trying to get cultural alignment?

· Now, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Can you share with us also, what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or there was an obstacle or hurdle that was presented to you and it caused you to not be on track but when you thought of that quote or when you recited that quote, it kind of got you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Barry’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So, I know we read your bio that gives us formally how it is that you got to where you are today, but we always like to hear from our guests in their own words, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

Barry stated that he appreciates Yanique asking and thanked her for mentioning his alma mater, RPI. As he said, he was a Computer Science Major and he was in college in the late 80s. So, the world of programming was very different than it would be today. But he wrote a lot of codes, in fact, when he went to his parent’s house years after he graduated, and he saw the Dot Matrix Paper printouts of the code he had written, he was like, who wrote this, he couldn't in a million years, he couldn't have recreated that code.

But by the time he graduated college, he knew that while he enjoyed coding very much, and it was why he went to get a computer science degree, he done enough. And what he became intrigued about was the intersection of the technology and people.

And his first roles out of college were not really tech support per se but sort of high-end engineering support for customers who are developing with their platform and that led him closer to customers.

And what he found he really enjoy and what he imagines he’s best that if he has to choose his best skill is, is explaining and painting a picture about technical topics for non-technical folks, that is very gratifying.

It's allowed him to have experience both with frontline decision makers, frontline influencers at any given customer, as well as executive suite folks who need these pictures drawn and need that insight. And he really enjoyed that, and he especially enjoy not only doing that himself, but enabling teams to do that with best practices, all the nuance that you need when you're in that customer facing role, whether it's pre sales or post sales, not just what you say, but how you say it. All of those things come together to create the kinds of roles that are always dynamic, and no two days are ever the same.

The Importance of Recruitment as it Relates to Customer Service Delivery

Me: So, a big part of what you're doing at your current organization is recruitment, correct? So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you believe recruitment is so important as it relates to customer service delivery, maybe connect the dots so that our listeners can have a good understanding of why having good recruitment techniques is critical to ensuring that you are aligned properly to get the kind of deliverables that you're looking from as it relates to customer service.

Barry shared that it is an interesting intersection because the skills and mindset of customer success folks is something that would exist regardless of what the industry you happen to be in is, but in their case, because Talroo is a talent matching platform that strives to match opportunities, especially for frontline workers with having the frontline worker at the right job, in the right place, at the right time, for the right price, so that they get the happy connection between an employer who needs the talent and the person who has the talent, making that connection is very gratifying and their entire platform is aligned around that.

And it does create an interesting mindset for them because they're helping employers recruit and then you say, “Well, how does that affect our own recruitment? What are we looking for? What are the processes? Everything from how do we source our candidates to how do we interview them to how do we determine their cultural alignment with our organization?”

So, all things recruitment is really near and dear to their heart.

And the other thing that makes it fun is, what they do is at an intersection of such a huge part of the economy, he can't read a newspaper or put on CNBC or watch a business channel, and not have them talking about the unemployment rate and the impact. So, they are really in the forefront of all of that.

But one of the things that they've really been focusing on as they craft where Talroo is going is very personal to him in terms of how he recruits and who he hires and who he looks for. One of the things they're seizing on as sort of their mission is improving the lives of both employers and candidates, one person at a time. And he loves that tagline because it captures how personal it is, it's one person at a time.

And he believes in a leadership role, the single most important thing that you can do is hire well, that is absolutely the single most important thing, if you hire well, most things take care of themselves, you hire well, you train well and you correct hiring problems quickly, if you've made a mistake, if you don't have that proper connection, that's always very painful, if you have to do that.

And then really the role he believes of a leader is to create the environment in which these talented people who are motivated and intelligent, where they can succeed. So, he often says he doesn't do any real work, the thing that he’s most proud of is creating an environment in which these folks can succeed, get the political stuff out of the way, and set them up for success. And if we found the right people who are customer success oriented, whether that service-oriented heart, they can then teach them what they need to know about their technology, their solution, but if they are the right cultural fit and the right kind of person, then they're 80% of the way there.

Areas to Focus On To Achieve Cultural Alignment

Me: So, I like the fact that in your explanation just know, you spoke about cultural alignment, and I think I would love for you to go a little bit more granular as it relates to that in terms of how do we hire well and focus on cultural alignment? And I imagine this begins in the interview process. Are there some key questions that you think may need to be asked? Does it boil down to the advertisement that you put out in terms of who you're attracting to apply in the first place? Where do you start? And maybe what are three, I would say main things that you believe if you're tasked with that responsibility for an organization, where would you put your focus, maybe three top areas that you put your focus on if we're trying to get cultural alignment?

Barry stated that it is a huge topic for them and in fact, he was just speaking with her CEO and they were thinking back on some candidates who didn't work out, not his organization per se, but across the company.

And in every case, when they violated in a sense their own rules, not that there are hard and fast rules, but when they looked past a lack of cultural alignment, the candidate didn't work out.

And they have a very formal process whereby, typically, it's done by their HR Department as part of the interviewing cycle, where a series of questions that are available are asked, in theory, the same topics would have come up in the other interviews with you want a candidate to meet some peers, of course, he interviews them as the hiring manager, and then they meet with HR.

And he will tend to focus on interpersonal relationships and problem solving. When you look at their values and we've written them down and he thinks so many companies these days happily have their pillars of their culture on their website, whether they live by them, it's hard to say. He appreciates candidates who challenge them on those things and want to make sure that it's real.

But they talk about things like being customer first, they talk about teamwork, they talk about accountability. He will and others, he will focus very much on the teamwork aspect of things and conflict resolution all with an eye toward, are we doing the right thing for their customer and for themselves, he can become a Johnnie one note around win-win scenarios. He has no interest in someone who is so accommodating of a customer that they might put his company at risk.

They look for partners and they don't say that in a glib fashion or as a soundbite, it's true. The nature of their business is such that if they have a customer who just wants them to service them and does not want to meet them at an appropriate point, in terms of communication and keeping data flowing and sharing reality, what's going on, if they're not a real partner, they don't do well with them.

And so, he needs customer success folks who understand that, who understand how to deal with conflict, who can navigate the complexities of those interpersonal relationships.

So, they'll ask questions around, of course, “Give him a scenario where you and a colleague were out of alignment and in disagreement, what did you do?” And you will hope that the candidate is honest and doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, normally you can figure out if they're telling you what you want to hear.

But that ultimately leads them to the single most important question in their values alignment survey when they take a candidate and they ask them to meet for half hour with their HR Department, the single most important question came out of a real life scenario with their CEO actually, where it led to the following question, “You go to a restaurant and you have your iPad on the front seat of your car, you park your car, and you don't lock the door, when you come back, the iPad is gone. Whose fault is it?”

And it's a fascinating question because what they are looking for is, “It's my fault.”

It doesn't mean the thief doesn't have some accountability.

And it doesn't mean that the restaurant might not have a more secure parking lot.

But in the end, you left a valuable item out in the open with an unlocked door, they didn't even have to smash the window, they just opened the door and took your very expensive piece of equipment. How do you not think that was my fault? I live in the real world, I have to have accountability for that kind of thing.

It leads to interesting discussions; they've had discussions around none of us ever want to blame a victim in the course of a crime being committed.

And the reason he liked that scenario so much is the car wasn't even violated. Were you a victim? Or were you just dumb? You invited someone you say, “Please rob me!”

If he leaves his front door unlocked, okay, you blame the thief, you shouldn't be robbed, society shouldn't allow that to happen. But you know what, he lives in the real world, he locked his door when he leaves.

So, those kinds of questions really matter. And that question in particular, and he will tell you, he’s very pleased, their candidates are honest, and their HR folks take very good notes, offer their own opinions. He'll go into their ITS and read those notes. And that's the question he’s looking for.

Are you personally accountable for your actions?

You can give 10% to the thief and you can give 10% to the to the restaurant, but if you're not thinking that you're 70% or 80% responsible for that, you might be looking for excuses as to when things don't go your way. And they're just too small a company too and they wear too many hats for anyone who has that opinion.

Me: Wow, I love that question. Thank you so much for sharing very, very good one.

App, Website or Tool that Barry Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Barry shared that it's funny, he hates to have it be the technological death star of our industry that he’s dealt with since he got into technology. But really it's their day to day tools with Microsoft, they are a Teams shop and they are finding more customers who are using Teams, of course you have Teams aficionados, and you have a lot of folks who are passionate about Slack. But they're using Teams and informally don't tell their IT Department they have some Slack channels going too. But that kind of real time communication with themselves because his team is fully remote. And so, their ability to stay in real time communication and in many cases in real time communication with their customers is proving ever, ever more valuable, they couldn't live without it at this point.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Barry

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Barry shared that it's fun to think about, currently he’s been enjoying reading history, the historian and he is a professor at Vanderbilt University, Jon Meacham is his name. He's the kind of fellow who when he's a guest on a news programme, and he finds him and he sees him, he’s actually glad they're talking about it. He’s hoping there's a way to sign up for when is Jon Meacham going to be on TV so he can go find him. He hangs on his every word and it's the kind of guy you kind of wish he was your grandfather telling you stories about the world in the past.

His biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson have been his latest readings. And he enjoys that because, a, he enjoys the break from technology and what they do every day, get his brain around something else. But it's the lessons from these great thinkers like a Thomas Jefferson as presented by a great thinker in the form of Jon Meacham where he finds himself reading his books with a highlighter, because it's not just the observations, the historical observations, but his observations when he ties these topics together. So, he always finds that fascinating, especially from a leadership standpoint.

And it's funny, the other thing that comes to mind is, it's again, he’s so much older than probably many of the listeners, but when he was in high school, he read a book by a gentleman named Roger Kahn, he became famous for his book, The Boys of Summer, which was about the 1950s, 40s and 50s, Brooklyn Dodgers.

And he wrote a book called Good Enough to Dream. And it was about his ownership stake in a minor league baseball club in Utica, New York. And the opening line has stayed with him, “The first dream full of innocence and sunlight is to play the game.” which he always loved. But early in the book, he says to someone who's associated with the team, “Are these guys any good?” And the response was, “They’re good enough to dream.” And that has always stayed with him. “Am I the best at something? Is my company the best at something?” He doesn't know, but they're good enough to give it a try and see where it leads them. And that's always stayed with him.

What Barry is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Barry shared that within his organization, he doesn't mind doing a commercial for the product Gainsight, which is the customer success platform. They recognized about 15 months ago as Talroo was growing both in terms of their customer base and their staff, that as a Salesforce shop and as a Microsoft shop, the needs for customer success weren't being met, in terms of what do they need to record? What do they need to predict? Do they have a sense around who will keep their contracts going, versus who is at risk of cancelling.

Just as a quick sidebar, Talroo, unlike a typical SaaS company does not have a long-term contract, they have to earn their customers business every month, they can cancel at will.

And so, it creates unique challenges and a real time need to know what's going on with each customer. And so, about 15 months ago, they embarked upon a project to implement a customer success platform. They ultimately chose Gainsight, he will say for anyone who is looking for a customer success platform, all of the players in the industry who they looked at were terrific, he doesn't think you could go wrong. ChurnZero to Tango, others, they were all first-class organizations, and they happened to choose Gainsight and that became an immediate game changer and continues to be.

And so, thank you for the question about what he’s focused on? Where are they growing? How are they evolving?

When they first rolled out Gainsight, it was primarily to support their efforts to track and manage and deal with renewals and even upsells are very important for upsells with their direct customers, employers who come to them and say, “Talroo will work with you directly to please advertise our jobs out in the world.” And that's what they really started with for the majority of their first year with the product.

But he has other caliber of customers who his team has to look after, including advertising agencies, and including job boards who they've had relationships with for years, who send them their jobs to advertise. And the needs are different across those different caliber of customers, and getting Gainsight rolled out now for the other members of his team and candidly getting adoption of it.

One of the things they've done very well and that he would encourage anyone thinking about any large software purchases, the people can kill a project. If any given team refuses to use Salesforce, Salesforce will fail. If any team refuses to use Gainsight, Gainsight will fail, people can win, and really torpedo a project.

So, they've done a really good job of getting buy in, forming a user council, the gentleman who is Andy Trevino, who is their administrator and RCS Ops Manager, who looks after Gainsight is always open to feedback, he's always soliciting feedback, so that they can make the solution match the way they work. He doesn't like software solutions where they have to change their behaviour in order to accommodate the tool, he wants the tool to accommodate the workflow and the processes that they already know work. And as they roll out the usage of Gainsight to this extended team, their needs are very different than their counterparts who work with their direct customers. So, getting that right is important.

And that accountability is incredibly important, because he no longer could afford and one of the reasons they went with Gainsight and started this whole project was when he wants to ask the very simple or get an answer to what he hopes would be a simple question of what's going on with fill in the blank of the customer name, it shouldn't take him 20 minutes to figure it out.

He needs all the information in one place and they're doing a terrific job of that with Gainsight with their direct customers, and getting members of his team who aren't used to it and haven't had to use it in the past, he needs to bring them along and their feedback. And he needs to make sure the product gets built out in a way that makes their lives easier, and that they see the value of it and that it's not just busy work, it's not just bureaucracy, it's that they really are using the product to make their lives better and then he gets what he needs in a leadership role, their C suite gets what it needs when they have questions about what's going on with the customer.

Many folks may have thought of this or use this line, traditionally, it's with Salesforce, they would say, on the sales side, if something isn't recorded in Salesforce, it didn't happen. That's the source of truth and that's where he’s going with Gainsight, if you don't have notes and details and specifics in Gainsight, then it didn't happen. And you don't want to do that for bureaucratic reasons, you want to do it because it makes the organization better and your customers more successful.

Me: Awesome. So, Gainsight is where you have most of your head wrapped around right now and just trying to build that out.

Where Can We Find Barry Online

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/klein-barry/

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Barry Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Barry shared that he has two, one is more serious than the other but the other, the funny one was his high school yearbook quote, but he will say plainly, he’s not a praying or religious person by nature, but he will go back to, “Dear God, grant me the strength to change the things I can, accept those that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

It really gets hard to know where you need to invest your time and energy.

What should you care about?

What do you need to back off of?

What can't you change?

So, the wisdom to know the difference between what you can change and what you have to accept is something he thinks about a lot.

The more fun quote is from the old Mary Tyler Moore Show, in the episode in which the character Chuckles The Clown is tragically killed, because he is the master of ceremonies for a parade. And he gets run over by an elephant dressed as a peanut, which leads to a ridiculous number of jokes and things about a man dressed as a peanut killed by an elephant. But because he was a clown by nature, his quotes, and the things that he did become a big part of the show. And his (Barry) high school yearbook quote was, “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.” Moments of stress, you know what, how serious can life be? “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.”

Me: I love it. Okay, Barry, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on our podcast today and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to cultural alignment and recruitment, ensuring that you're getting the right fit to ensure that you're able to meet the deliverables and as you mentioned, just mitigating against the wrong fit and mitigating against challenges and issues that could have been prevented had the recruitment been aligned and selected properly from day one. So, I thought it was a great conversation and I just want to say, thank you so much for taking time and sharing with us today.

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Links

• Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power by Jon Meacham

• American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House by Jon Meacham

• The Boys of Summer by Roger Kahn

• Good Enough to Dream by Roger Kahn

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Afleveringen

243: Building Strong Cultures and Empowering CEOs: Insights from Bob Carrothers
17 sep· Navigating the Customer Experience
Bob Carrothers has 29 years of experience, he facilitates peer-to-peer boards of CEOs and executives, creating environments conducive to skill enhancement, informed decision-making and superior results. Bob is certified as an Emergenetics advisor and Predictive Index practitioner, equipping him with a profound understanding of human behaviour and cognition.

Questions

· So, we always like to ask our guests, in your own words, could you share a little bit about your journey? How you got from where you were to where you are today?

· What would you say maybe if you could pick three overarching tenets or competencies that you believe CEOs need to practice or embrace in order to really achieve the three areas that just mentioned.

· What are some of the key things that make an organization successful?

· Now, Bob, can you also share with our audience, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Now, can you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you, whether it be personally or professionally.

· Bob, can you share with our audience what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Bob, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Bob’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to ask our guests, in your own words, could you share a little bit about your journey? How you got from where you were to where you are today?

Bob shared that it's been a very interesting journey. He started out as an entrepreneur; he had companies involved in the meat trading business. So, they bought and sold animal parts, lungs, livers, kidneys, everything that was most people would consider waste from an animal, and then they would resell them to people we knew wanted them, mostly to pet food companies, that's where the tonnage went. And then others to went to Mexico. Others went into sausage making, Chorizo making on the West Coast. They just find a buyer and go do it. And they'd go into a packing house and buy their entire production of lungs or livers or whatever, and then resell it into the pet food canning business. So, it's been an interesting ride.

In 1996 he got out of that business. He sold it to his management team, and they took it over, and they're still running it. And then after that, he started another company that failed miserably. He lost a ton of money. He was crushed, and it was hard and then he looked around, and he'd been a Vistage member, and he loved it. And he knew that with all the ups and downs he’s had in his life, he could help people from making mistakes and doing what he did and living that life. So, he reached out to his past business chair, and he hired him, and that was in 1996, so he’s been doing this ever since, September of 1996, so it's been quite a ride.

Overarching Tenets or Competencies CEO’s Need to Embrace to Unlock Their Potential, Enhance Performance and Achieve Their Goals

Me: Now, you focus on empowering CEOs to unlock their full potential, enhance their performance and achieve their goals. Based on your many years of experience, Bob in this space, working, I'm sure with CEOs and entrepreneurs across different industries, what would you say maybe if you could pick three overarching tenets or competencies that you believe CEOs need to practice or embrace in order to really achieve the three areas that I just mentioned.

Bob shared that he thinks they need to establish a great culture in their company and mind it. Nurture it and protect it, because culture trumps everything, nothing else matters. Your people won't be happy, you won't keep people, you will make your customers angry, your suppliers angry, and you'll do a really bad job because your employees won't care. And so, that's the first thing he would say, is build a strong culture.

The second thing is to hire correctly, be slow to hire and fast to make them available to industry. So, that's really important. If the employee can't do the job they were hired to do, they need to move on and then hire the right people. Put a lot of effort in your hiring process.

And the other one would be, watch the money. You've got to keep track of your cash flow, you got to predict what the cash is going to be down the road. Bigger companies have CFOs to do that, and then they'll report to the CEO. Smaller ones, often the CEO will do it themselves. But you have to do it, because if you run out of cash, you're out of business. It's just really simple, if you can't make payroll, then you're gone.

Key Things for an Organization Success

Me: So, Bob, in working with these different organizations, right? We're trying to establish what are some of the key things that make an organization successful? And so, the customer experience is critical in all businesses regardless of whether or not you have a face-to-face type of interaction or you're just digital and people are communicating with you solely through the internet. But leadership is very important for a business, whether you're a solopreneur or you're a fortune 500 company, regardless of the size, it's driven by the leader in the organization. As it relates to customer experience, if you were to maybe give us an example of a use case, a good use case, example that you've observed over the years in working with these CEOs, what do you think are some of the key things that make them be able to have a successful customer experience, one in which their customers are their brand advocates, their evangelists, their word of mouth advertisers. If that company decided not to advertise for the next two, three years, they would still be doing great business because their customers view them as fans. What would you say are key things in that?

Bob shared that there's one company that comes to mind, and that CEO was brilliant, and the culture in the company was extremely strong. He would walk around his plant every day, and he knew everybody's name and met family members, and he'd walk up to him and just say, “Hey, Charlie, how you doing? How's the family? How's your wife? I heard your son Robbie is sick.” He would do that, and the employees felt that they were cared for.

He never stopped setting goals, he never stopped doing things that would make the work fun. He was trying to reduce shrinkage one day, and it kept bugging him, it was going on for months, and he decided he'd just do a little contest, and he went out and bought an old junker car and a whole bunch of sledgehammers, and every day the group, the employees reduced the amount of shrinkage, they could go out and beat up on the car. And it was just amazing how much fun they were having and how just beating a car, they hit their goal for sure, and it cost the CEO, like, what $500 to do that.

He had other contests like dunk the CFO, where he had one of those dunking tubs. Certain goals were reached, that was out in the parking lot. He saw him with his customers. One of their Vistage speakers impacted him so much that he invited his customers from around the country to come to his plant, see the plant, and hear this speaker present, and because it made such an impact on him, he wanted his customers to be better too, so he thought this speaker could really help him.

What else did he do? Whenever he'd walk up to somebody and they promised to do something for him, he recorded it on his phone, so he'd pull it out and before he saw them, pull up their name and say, “Hey, how are you coming on that project we talked about?” And the accountability went through the roof. Just little things like that, simple things. But he had one goal, that if the company reached so much in revenue sales, he knew that if it did, they'd make extra money, if it was over and above the regular goal, it was big….hairy….audacious goal, and he said, “If you guys hit this, I will take the entire company to Las Vegas.” Because he knew if they increased the revenue that much, the profits would go up enough to pay for the trip and then some. And he was legendary with his employees. Just things like that that are special.

Me: I think one of the things I took away from what you said just now that it's not the big things, it's like always the little things, the minor details, and they go very far away with another human being, because it shows them that you value them, you appreciate them, and they're just not there to milk, to get more money, money, money. But you value them as a person, and you recognize the fact that your success is just as important as their success.

Bob agreed, that's exactly right. That's what it takes to build a great company, is the culture you create. You want people waiting in line to go to work for you.

Me: I know right, that's awesome.

App, Website or Tool that Bob Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without, Bob shared that he hates it, but he can't live without it, it's called email. Buries him, but it's the communication is so fast, and we can send documents back and forth, and he doesn't think anybody could live without email now. We all curse it, but it's there.

Me: Agreed, because in the absence of email, we have to go back to posting a letter to your customer or to your friend or family member, and we all know the Postal Service takes forever for you to get that response. So, yeah, email is amazing.

Bob shared that he remembers those days and they'd send off a contract and wait and wait and wait to get it back, just because of the mail, or an invoice. It just was crazy. And then came fax machines, and they were huge. He bought one once and his accountant, and said, “Why do you want that thing? Nobody else has them.” And he said they will, even though they will. And that became huge, and then email took over for that.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Bob

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Bob shared that Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t was a book that had an effect on him. Blue Ocean Strategy: How to Create Uncontested Market Space and Make Competition Irrelevant is another one. Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Me: I'm actually looking at the book right now. It's sitting right in front of me.

Bob shared that that's one of the major ones. And another one he wrote was How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. So, there's several.

What Bob is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Bob shared that he’s always excited about cheering, he sees so much, and he loves what he does. As far as he’s not in any training right now, but Vistage offers trainings all the time, and he also does stuff outside of Vistage. But right now, he’s getting ready to go on a holiday in a sprinter van, it's an RV, and that's kind of got his attention. Plus, he’s got two Vistage meetings next week.

Me: So, those are your things that you're working on that you're really excited about. Fantastic.

Where can listeners find Bob online?

LinkedIn - Bob Carrothers

Website – www.vistage.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Bob Uses

When asked about quotes that he tends to revert to, Bob shared he does, he’s a big fan of Albert Einstein, and he had a quote that was, “The same level of thinking that caused a problem is not going to fix the problem.” That's not exact, but that's what it means. And that's so true. Another one is, “Everybody’s a genius. But if you want to teach a fish to fly, they're going to fail and feel they're a loser from then on.” And some people just can't get it. And sometimes when things go wrong, you got to look at the people involved, or the thinking involved and reapproach it with a different level.

Me: Okay, so that second quote is more to say, maybe you need to take a few steps backward just to move forward, just to reevaluate and do it again.

Bob agreed. Reevaluate if it's an employee and they just can't get it. Maybe they're just not set up for it, and it's better to find another position for them, or another area of responsibility, or perhaps they're just not right for your company, like you got to have the right people on the bus as Jim Collins say.

Me: True. If you have the wrong people on the bus, it makes the journey that much harder.

Bob agreed, they got to be in the right seats.

Me: Well, thank you so much Bob for jumping on our podcast today and sharing all of these awesome insights as it relates to Vistage and your journey and just what are some of the key things that makes a leader successful and makes an organization successful as they navigate their customer experience through the journey of their customers lifetime. So, I think your conversation today was extremely insightful, and I just wanted to extend our deepest gratitude to you for taking time to share with us today.

Bob shared that he’s really enjoyed this. Yanique ask great questions and make him think so, thank you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins

• Blue Ocean Strategy: How to Create Uncontested Market Space and Make Competition Irrelevant by W. Chan Kim

• How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie

• How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
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242: Mastering Geofencing for Small Business Growth with Ernesto Cullari and Barbara Wardell
11 sep· Navigating the Customer Experience
Barbara Wardell and Ernesto Cullari run an agency that focuses on geofencing. This embraces a growth hacker mindset that strategically focuses on identifying and amplifying their clients’ strengths while pinpointing weaknesses in the competition, utilizing GPS location data. This approach results in a significant and measurable impact on foot traffic and online engagement, making their efforts truly game changing and successful.

Questions

· Now, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journeys, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Can you share with our listeners in the most simplest layman terms, what exactly is geofencing?

· Organizations heavily invest in marketing, but then when the person comes to the organization to do business, case in point, let's say you visited Starbucks, and you had to wait for 20 minutes just to get a cup of coffee. You're extremely frustrated, because it's just a small item, you should be in and out in the shortest possible time. How do you tackle that with your clients? Is that something that you deal with as well?

· Do you find that the behavior based on the geographic location or even the culture of the country, impacts how geofencing works?

· Now we'd also like to hear from both of you, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with me maybe one or two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, whether personally or professionally.

· Now, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your lives right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, we always like to wrap our episodes up by asking our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Barbara and Ernesto’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journeys, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Barbara Wardell: Barbara shared that she and Ernesto met during Covid at a Halloween party, believe it or not, before they started their company together, they became friends. And her journey is she’s a mom of two, and she was in the medical industry, specialty medicines for a long time, and then Covid hit, and then she and Ernesto met at a Halloween party, became friends, and then they started Cullari & Wardell, a geofencing ad agency, and a little over two years, they've been killing it, so growing small businesses. So, they're really lucky to do that.

Ernesto Cullari: Ernesto stated that as Barbara said, they met during Covid, they both have a medical background. For years, he was a Surgical OR Med Rep, so he would be working in the operating room with physicians utilizing novel technology to do abdominal body wall repair, post breast reconstruction after cancer and things like that. During the day, he moonlit as a professional songwriter, so he had songs on Disney radio, country radio, that he wrote for other artists.

And along that journey, he became a songwriter. So, the mystery during his creative time was always wondering how to sort of growth hack, how to break an artist out into the mainstream. And they had a lot of success doing that. Paulie Litt from the show Hope & Faith, ended up having a number one song on Disney radio, which they wrote for him, and then had a top 100 song, and then top 15 country music song that he wrote for an artist named Bailey Grey.

And so, it does lead them up to Covid, because when Covid struck, part of their content, so he got more into advertising and marketing, and a lot of their clients just dropped off. And the problem that needed to be solved was how do you rebuild foot traffic, particularly in a market where the government won't let you open, when they do let you open, people are going to be slow to come back to retail.

So, what do we do?

So, putting that growth hacker hat back on to when he was a songwriter, he looked into geofencing, and that was about 4 years ago, and then 2 years into his journey of mastering, doing his 10,000 hours of studying geofencing technology, he and Barbara met, and it became a passion of theirs, and throughout their conversation, to help small businesses, to help them bring people back in.

People like the retail experience, people like the in-person experience, and geofencing is a powerful tool that uses satellite technology to draw virtual fences around locations of interest. It could be your competitors, and they use that to capture their devices to send ads to their devices when they come into one of their locations after seeing one of your ads, the satellite pings them and alerts them that a new GPS verified visit has taken place. And he and Barbara do about 5000 satellite verified visits in the US, Canada and Australia every month.

What is Geofencing?

Me: Now, for those of our listeners that are tapping into this episode when it's broadcasted and they're getting a chance to listen into this awesome content, can you share with them in the most simplest layman terms, what exactly is geofencing?

Ernesto Cullari: stated that in the simplest terms, it is a form of advertising that uses your phone and when you walk into a location that they've identified with a satellite, he’s drinking a cup of coffee at a coffee shop that he bought it at. And then in his surrounding areas, there's about 7 other coffee shops. Well, if he wants to show why he’s better, he would use geofencing to draw a virtual fence around his competition. Once someone walks into a competing coffee shop with their mobile device, he can then capture their device and then send ads to their device. And the wonderful part is, is when after seeing his ad, come back to his coffee shop, he could say, “Wow, because of my ads, because I used geofencing to target their devices in my competition stores, I've therefore just measured 50 visits this month.”

So, it's critical because none of us are made of money, and advertising dollars for the small business is scarce, so we want to use our money wisely. And big companies like Chipotle, Chipotle, by the way, the CEO of Chipotle just got hired at Starbucks.

Me: I saw that yesterday.

Chipotle during Covid, utilized, he thinks it was one of their vice presidents came up with this idea, “Hey, let's use geofencing. I heard it works.” Well, during Covid, Chipotle was able to triple their curb side pickup from using geofencing. They saw where other people were picking up food, and then they decided to target those locations and let them know that, “Hey, Chipotle has curb side pickup.”

So, Chipotle did so well that Starbucks needs to learn from them. As you know, a lot of Starbucks locations have been closing throughout the country, and they picked off talent from Chipotle, and he has no doubt that that talented team is going to be helping Starbucks turn around, but geofencing is part of that story.

Me: So, now our listeners have a good idea of what geofencing is and also what your organization does.

How Does Using GeoFencing as a Marketing/Advertising Tool Affect CX?

Me: Now let's tie all of that back into the customer experience, right? Because we're all about navigating the customer's experience. So, you have marketed and advertised to the organizations to say, hey, you can come to this organization based on the geofencing marketing initiatives that you've put in place. Now, can you share with me how it is that the customer experience is addressed in this for example, like with your clients, because I find, for example, people spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising, not sure what the cost point is for geofencing compared to traditional media like the radio or newspaper, if it's significantly cheaper. But I find that a lot of times, organizations heavily invest in marketing, but then when the person comes to the organization to do business, case in point, let's say you visited Starbucks, and you had to wait for 20 minutes just to get a cup of coffee. You're extremely frustrated, because it's just a small item, you should be in and out in the shortest possible time. How do you tackle that with your clients? Is that something that you deal with as well?

Barbara Wardell: shared that for their end, it's the advertising end, they don't deal with the customers per se. The places that people go with their smartphones is indicative highly of the products that they buy. So, when they go into a geofence, what they see is they're open on an app, because they're on apps or on the wide-open web, they’re not on Facebook, Instagram, Google. So, when they actually go into that geofence and they're on an app, they will see an ad for one of their customers, and from that, if they toggle it or click it, they will see a map how to get there. Once they go into that store, whether it's that day or 90 days later, the satellite will ping them. So, that part is their end. What they go into the store is on the customer itself of how they treat their customer. And Ernesto has some insight on that as well.

Ernesto Cullari: shared that when they do a consultation with a client, one of the first things they ask, they're one of the largest advertisers for laundromats in the world, so small business owners have discovered that owning a laundromat is a very good business, you're serving your community, you're providing a great service, but it's very important to set up realistic expectations. So, he and Barbara, when they consult a company, they want to find out even,

“What kind of doors you have?”

“Do you have doors that are particularly when moms and dads are coming in with their kids, are the doors automatic? Are they wide doors?”

“Are you operating new machines?”

Because they want to set up realistic expectations for the end consumer. So, when they work with one of their clients, they do ask them how their operations run. They've been very fortunate to attract top operators in communities across the US, but when it comes to restaurants and spirits companies and hotels and HVAC and doctors and things like that, service providers, they do want to make sure that the product that they say they're offering is the end user experience that the customer has. But as Barbara said, it's not their responsibility to make sure they do operations well, but they advise them, “Hey, get your operations down, and let's make sure the promise that we give is matched with the in-store experience.”

Barbara Wardell: shared that that’s something they think that is very important. So, that's why they do a lot of research before they take on a client. They ask them a lot of questions to make sure that they're doing what they're promising in their ads, because you don't want that customer to come in and say, “Okay, this is not what the promise was, right?” Then they won't come back.

Ernesto Cullari: shared that they're concerned about their numbers; in order to do well for you, they need to be telling the truth. There needs to be truth in advertising, and they don't want their numbers as a company to be impacted because they're committed to delivering as much as 5000 visits a month, and if their clients are not on their end, providing the proper customer experience, it does impact him and Barbara. So, they're very competitive, they want to make sure they uphold the things that they say they're going to do, and they tend to advise their clients 100% of the time to do the same to make sure they're matching the experience with their ad promise.

The Impact of Geofencing

Me: So, in the feedback that you just provided, it got me thinking to the fact that, do you find geofencing it's most effective or impactful based on your geographical location. So, is it that you primarily operate in the United States, in North America? And do you find that geofencing would be different based on, let's say, a customer who is in Nigeria, in Africa, or a customer who is in Kingston, Jamaica, in the Caribbean? Do you find that the behaviour based on the geographic location or even the culture of the country, impacts how geofencing works? Is that data that you're able to provide as well to the clients?

Barbara Wardell: Yes. So, they're right now in Australia, Canada and the United States, and there is a culture difference when you advertise in a different country, they found that a lot has to do, they do a lot of studies before they break into another country, to make sure that they understand the behaviours and kind of they do a listening device that kind of listens to the area to see, because they track mobile foot traffic, right? So, that's one of the things that they do to work on their geofencing, so they already know when they go into that area, what the culture is like, and also talking to the customer as well to understand the area. And also, they do a listening device or a foot traffic study to understand the area that they're targeting.

Ernesto Cullari: Agreed, Barbara said it perfectly. They do set up listening campaigns, and it's basically a beacon to measure, he'll give you an example, Australia, for listeners that haven't been there, he and Barbara have not been there, but when they look at it via satellite, you have these communities that are densely populated, and then you have hundreds of 1000s of acres of wide open space. So, they really need to do due diligence and measure the amount of devices that are available in an area before they market to them. So now, they haven't tested yet whether this works in Africa or South Africa, but right now, they're for sure it works all throughout Asia and it's a matter of so say, Nigeria, for example, they would have to set up a listening campaign, they would have to measure the amount of devices that are available and then determine what kind of devices are they. Are they iPhones, Samsungs and Androids, or are they flip phones and some other mixture of devices and that will impact what kind of the ads they use.

Me: All right. So, that definitely answers my question, and I think it will help to guide the listeners as well in terms of if they're small business owners, or even working in organizations with small business owners that they can definitely identify if this is something that would benefit them and benefit creating more traffic for their organization, generating more customers and hopefully impacting their customer experience.

App, Website or Tool that Barbara and Ernesto Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Their Business

Barbara Wardell: When asked about online resource that they cannot live without in their business, Barbara stated that she thinks it's the foot traffic study only because it gives them a lot of information before they even launch a campaign for any one of their customers. It is something that they can see a half hour before and a half hour after the customers, where they go from that that area, or that specific customer, and also for a year, they can go back for a year to look at that traffic and see where those customers go.

Ernesto Cullari: He thinks for himself, he has his hand in a lot of working on the creatives for clients. And even though there are wonderful platforms out there, like the whole Adobe Suite, which includes Premier, Photoshop, Lightroom and all that, and Adobe Illustrator, and he thinks they're all great. But he likes the prosumer which are applications that anybody off the street could use. So, if you're a small business owner or even a big business owner, and you want an application where you don't need to go to your team or your assistant, you want to be able to do something yourself, Canva is a wonderful platform that he has actually, when he works in Canva after working in something like Adobe, his turnaround time sometimes in Canva is so much quicker because it's made for dummies.

Canva is made for dummies. So, he loves Canva, and also, they manage designers, and those designers, they work in Creatopy, again, so that's a prosumer, anybody off the street could use that website, it makes great looking html5 ads.

And again, as someone who manages creatives, if he doesn't like something, can go into Creatopy, and he could fix it himself. So, he thinks no matter where you are in your journey as a business owner, whether you manage a fortune 100 company and you have to deal with your admin, your marketing men and women, or you own a small business and you have to do it yourself, or you're hiring an agency like them, Canva and Creatopy, in addition to the Adobe Creative Suite, are just wonderful platforms.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Barbara and Ernesto

Ernesto Cullari: When asked about books that have had an impact, Ernesto shared that he read Confessions of an Advertising Man by Ogilvy, which he thinks is one of the greatest books on advertising you can read. But also, it's not just advertising, it's in general, if you're someone who needs to communicate to the masses or to discrete audiences, small audiences, learning the art of communication is important, and he thinks Confessions of an Advertising Man, he have found invaluable.

In addition to Sun Tzu's Art of War, sometimes you have to crush your competition, and you have to be able to have the stomach for it, and strategy is necessary. And Sun Tzu’s The Art of War he would also say. And then the Bible.

Barbara Wardell: She has to say one of her favorite is Wabi Sabi Love, it's about being in the present and appreciating everything that’s in your life at that moment, because it could be gone tomorrow, and she’s had that experience, she’s read a ton of marketing books, but that's one that's close to her heart.

Ernesto Cullari: He shared that Yanique asked earlier about cost effectiveness, and the cost per acquisition and things like that. How does this compare to other forms of advertising? So, he’s sure a lot of listeners out there have for various reasons, could be for charity, could be for advertising, could be for marketing. They've engaged in Facebook, Google advertising to promote an event or product. So, he can tell you, doing the engagement using Facebook and then starting with other forms of advertising since then, and he can tell you that geofencing, pound per pound is the Mike Tyson, is the absolute Mike Tyson of advertising. Everyone else is a lightweight. There is no censorship.

So, if you run political ads, you will face no censorship of any sort on the geofencing side, unlike Facebook and Google, who will silence you if they don't agree with your viewpoints. And in terms of reach and measurement, dollar for dollar, there's just nothing as effective as geofencing.

So, on a $500, he doesn't recommend only spending this, but on a $500 budget per month, you can end up with 20 people coming through your door. I do recommend for five-mile radius that you spend at least $1,000 on your market, that way, if you know the cost per customer, meaning how much money your average customer spends, you have the opportunity to 10 to 30x your return on investment depending on what the value of a new customer is for you.

In some of their verticals that they work with, the value of a new customer is $40,000 so on the $1,000 ad spend, if you gain one new client a month, that's a quite impressive return on investment. For other clients they have in the laundry industry, some of their clients are worth 1200 to 2500 a year. So, if they send the 30, 40, 50 customers a month, then that again, is quite a handsome return on investment, agreed.

What Barbara and Ernesto is Really Excited About Now!

Barbara Wardell: When asked about something that they are really excited about, Barbara shared that they just launched which they're really excited about, their dashboard for their clients so that they can go in and see the reporting instead of them emailing them their reports, so now that they can go into the system and actually on their time and actually look at and see their results of their campaign.

Ernesto Cullari: He shared that he’s excited about he and Barbara just got finished running a fundraiser from his mother's orphanage in the Philippines. She operates what's called Street Kids Philippine Missions, and she's been there for 15 years with her husband, Matt, and they have rescued kids that were in danger of being sex trafficked, that were eating out of garbage cans, that were basically destitute. And it's their 15th year, they just successfully raised $20,000 and that was simply an online campaign where they used their podcasting studio to talk about what his mom does, and Matt does there. And they're pretty proud of being able to use their resources to help kids that face sex trafficking that would otherwise be destitute. And he would say he’s most happy and proud about that development.

Where can listeners find you online?

Website – www.cullarimedia.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Barbara and Ernesto Uses

Ernesto Cullari: When asked about a quote to they tend to revert to, Ernesto shared from The Art of War, “He whose forces are of one mind will be victorious.”

Barabra Wardell: She shared that mainly, she always tells herself to be in the present moment and not get sidetracked by other things that are going on. But she can't think of a quote right now.

Me: Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedules and hopping on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to geofencing and the impact that it can have on 10x’ing your business, getting new clients, the advantage that it has over traditional media, advertising and just the opportunity for you to understand your customer base a little bit more, get an idea of where they're coming from and why they're coming to you, so you can continue to build on that and even exceed their expectations. So, I think it was a great conversation, and I just wanted to extend my deepest gratitude to you both.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Confessions of an Advertising Man by Dave Ogilvy

• The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
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241: Mastering Sales Through Customer-Centric Mindsets: Insights from Alan Versteeg
3 sep· Navigating the Customer Experience
Alan Versteeg, an engineer turned sales management expert, initially approached the sales world with skepticism, but soon turned it into a thriving career by applying the engineering principles of cause and effect to sales and sales management. This success led him to co-founding Growth Matters, where Alan and his team have developed over 2,000 sales managers across 45+ countries and diverse industries.

Known for his candid and light-hearted approach, Alan's passion for the sales profession shines through in his insightful talks, leaving audiences engaged with his wisdom, expertise, and memorable one liners.

Questions

· Now, could you start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Can you share with us maybe two overarching themes that you try to help sales professionals master in terms of their mindset, to get them to where you need them to be in order to master their sales?

· What are some barriers that you believe a lot of salespeople face, why it is you believe they're not successful?

· Now, Alan, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners maybe two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great impact on you.

· Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Just want to ask you as well, Alan, in your experience, in the journey of your lifetime, if you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, if for any reason, you got derailed. Do you have a quote or a saying that once repeated or just remembered it helps to get you back on track?

Highlights

Alan’s Journey

Me: Now, could you start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

Alan shared that he started as an electronic engineer, it wasn't his fault, he grew up watching Airwolf Night Rider and MacGyver, so he thought that's what he'd be doing. Unfortunately, he lost his dad when he was quite young, he was about 12 years old, but he was an engineer, so he thought that'd be a good thing to do. But he was doing it for about 3 years after graduating, and he read a book called You're Born an Original, Don't Die a Copy by John Mason, and he said, “If you passionately hate what you're doing for more than 2 weeks, you need to stop,” and he'd been doing it for two years.

And a friend of his suggested he goes into sales, which he then tried and please if your listeners don't drop off now, but he got asked to leave his first sales jobs, but it was frustrating. As an engineer, he believed in cause and effect. He believes that there's things you do that get you certain outcomes. He was doing everything they told him to do, but he couldn't find a way to get through, he'd be good at his product, he was passionate to what he was doing, but he wasn't able to succeed.

And then he worked under a manager, he said to him, “Alan, is sales a job or a profession?” So, he knew the right answer, the right answer was, it's a profession. And he said, “Well, how hard did you study for this profession?”

And then the penny drops, and from there on out, been a passionate reader, 50 to 60 books a year, generally related to psychology, self-development and sales and over time, realized that the big change in sales is sales management, and that's a short view of his journey to where he was and how he got here.

Mindset Needed for Sales Professionals

Me: Now you deal with a lot of sales professionals, and I can imagine it starts with their mindset. Can you share with us maybe two overarching themes that you try to help sales professionals master in terms of their mindset, to get them to where you need them to be in order to master their sales?

Alan stated that it's a great question, and it speaks to the tone of your podcast. So, the first mindset they have to own is that “Selling won't help, but helping will sell.” That the sale is the reward for an intent to create value. And that's the starting point when we realize that we are service orientated, that we're there to drive value into the client's business or life, that there's something specifically we're trying to do, that were truthfully customer centric it's not just a word, and we realize that selling won't help, but helping will sell.

You'll find that salespeople do really well. There's a wonderful book called Selling With Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud by Lisa Earle McLeod, and it shows the research behind the top performing sales professionals globally sell with that noble purpose, with an idea to serve. So, it's definitely one of them.

The second one is probably an extension, he said to sales professionals, “If you believe in the product you sell and you believe it can add value to the person you're serving, then it would be borderline negligent to avoid offering them that value.”

Many salespeople, specifically today are fearful of cold calling or proactive sales calling or reaching out or picking up a phone or speaking to someone, and they take on a very much non-human sales approach, as opposed to going, “I believe, with certainty and conviction that what I have to offer will make their lives or their business easier, and I'm here to help, and helping will sell. So, I'm going to depart from that point.”

And what you find is doing that, apart from that point, the skills, the body language, all the risks that start to develop quite naturally, but often we avoid that, we try to train the skill, but we avoid the mindset.

Barriers To Overcome as Salespeople

Me: So, once you tackle their mindset, now you have to ensure that what they're selling, as you mentioned before, is actually helping the customer and adding value to the customer's life. What are some barriers that you believe a lot of salespeople face, why it is you believe they're not successful?

Alan shared that he thinks the big barrier specifically in professional selling is conviction of the value proposition, and before that is clarity. And he'll give a couple of examples.

When he speaks to business leaders, they often say to him, “You know what Alan, the challenge with our sales teams are they just don't understand our value proposition.”

And he says, okay, great. What is your value proposition? And they struggle to articulate it. Now, if you think about this, why is it that entrepreneurs can sell quite effectively without ever having been trained in that skill, and the reality is they have clarity and conviction of their value proposition. He thinks with many sales professionals, we're teaching them the product, we're not teaching them the impact it has on the customer's life.

Once we buy into the impact, once we have the conviction, selling is a natural part of how we are as humans and Dan Pink wrote that book To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others.

And his (Alan) example is we have a brand over there, it's called Woolworths, it's a high-quality brand, high quality food brand. And if you said to anyone, “But why shopping in Woolworths? They're so expensive.” They dive into a defense, without being paid by this company, they will sell very hard the value of doing that.

The same could be said for someone who's an Apple phone fan. And he can continue, once we have conviction of something, the ability and need to persuade is actually quite natural. So, he thinks what's missing from an individual's perspective is that conviction of the mindset.

From a corporate, it's the fact that we speak about customer centricity, but none of our measurement metrics or meetings actually align to that.

Me: Now, I found that in a lot of organizations, they're heavily sales driven, right? I find it as a customer service trainer when companies hire me to come in and train their team, especially the leadership teams in customer service, or even customer experience design or customer journey mapping, there's a lot of emphasis that I hear them talking that they have these exorbitant sales targets to meet on a month to month basis, and with these targets that they have to meet, they don't have as much time to give to customer centricity or to give to the experience, because it's all about meeting the target. How do you strike that balance as a salesperson? What would be your recommendation?

Alan shared that there'd be two components. The first would be at an organizational lens, speaking to what you're saying. He thinks organizations have forgotten that when you take care of the customers, the number takes care of itself. So, we are so focused on the month, on the quarter, on the year, we're not focused on the value, and that's a shift that needs to happen.

But practically, the way that shift happens is in the account planning process, when we start treating our customers and accounts and saying, what is the value we're delivering. Many companies go, what more can we sell them? What's the white space we can sell into? What does that look like? And that's the big organizational.

From a salesperson’s perspective, the only thing you can do is you need to figure out how to allocate your effort. And the way he says that is you have to beat everyone equally but handle them differently. You have to segment your customers, otherwise you can't take care of the ones that need to be taken care of, and your competitor is going to snatch them up. And in any sales business, he’s ever worked with, if you lose, and it's generally about 10%, if you lose about 10% of your customers, you lose about 90% of your revenue.

But organizations are just focused what's the next sale, what's the next sale, what's the next sale? And what happens is, we're putting two barrels on the truck, and three barrels are falling off the truck because we're not focused on the customer service.

And we almost see it as something separate, and it's not. The way he articulates this is there's a thing called the value gap, it's the gap between what customers expect and what they experience. And it is everybody's job in the organization to close that gap.

It's not, “Hey, sales go set the expectation. Hey, service go and deliver against that expectation.” It's an organizational mindset that we exist to close the gap between the customers expect and what they experience.

And he thinks their leadership needs to start realizing that taking care of customers, the numbers take care of themselves, and that talking to a spreadsheet or talking to a CRM system or talking to data doesn't change people's behaviour.

So, leadership needs to take a different perspective on this and going, what is it we do now that lays the soil in the seeds for the numbers we need?

App, Website or Tool that Alan Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Alan shared that right now ChatGPT. He thinks that we are negating its value in sales if we're using it incorrectly. So, he’ll give you a context.

As salespeople, we need to be creative and optimistic, and we're not fans of admin. So, the good news for sales professionals is a lot of our admin is going to be replaced by technology, but that's going to leave a lot of sales professionals wanting because what do you do with the time that you used to spend putting your data. But he really leverages the tool to shorten his learning curve, understanding a customer, understanding what the challenges are, understanding key things. It's a tool to summarize, it doesn't replace him as it shouldn't, it enhances him.

And he was listening to one of Yanique’s earlier podcasts, you talk about the human-to-human connection, and there's this thing now where we talk about human-to-human selling. And he’s like, well, if you think human to human selling is new, then you haven't been around for millennia, because that's what it is. It's a human-to-human task enhanced by technology. But right now, if he talks about probably 60% to 70% of his time is given back to him because he knows to leverage ChatGPT.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Alan

When asked about books that have had an impact, Alan shared that that's a tough question with all the books he read, but he’s going to give one that he always recommends. The first one is called The Slight Edge: Turning Simple Disciplines into Massive Success and Happiness by Jeff Olson, and the premise of the book is that simple disciplines practiced consistently over time, lead to a life of greatness, and simple errors in judgment made consistently over time, lead to a life of blame. There's no Hollywood moment, there's not one big movement, they're just simple disciplines. Look at any leader, any sports hero, any person who succeeds in their profession, they practice the disciplines. So, there's definitely one that guides his life.

And then the other one is a book called The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller, and it's really about forgetting this construct of work life balance and finding out what's the one thing I can do such that by doing everything else is easier or unnecessary. And it talks about this work life counterbalance, and how you just keep the things that matter, you don't make them extreme fluctuations and the things that don't matter can be extreme. You can be heavily buried in a work project for three months, but during that time, don't forget your health, your family time, the things that matter. Just tone it down a bit, not all the way down. Those are two books, he'd say, personally, really drove him.

As a business professional, recently read that 10x Is Easier Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan, wonderful resource for anyone that's listening, that is an entrepreneur or business owner, 10x Is Easier Than 2x.

What Alan is Really Excited About Now!

Me: Now, Alan, could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Alan shared that he’s recently moved to a smaller coastal towns that's been really good for him personally, but the big thing happening for him business wise, is there's a very large global brand that they've managed to secure that's 10x’ing our business, which is a plan they had based on that book that he’s read, and starting to see how that effort, energy and focus is paying off, is really rewarding. When you read a lot of books, you can get sometimes caught up in the story and not in the action.

And what's really great to see, in a proud moment for their business, is now really starting to take on some recognized global brands who are looking at effectively three guys from South Africa and saying, “We want to partner with you to do this.” So, it's a proud moment that's come, your overnight success is the longest night of your life.

But really what it's been powerful is seeing the practices that they put in place now starting to bear fruit. And when you say, take care of the customers, the number takes care itself, it's actually quite prolific, how?

And you know this, he’s preaching to the converted, but when you understand that the only thing that matters is how customers experience you, then everything else becomes a lot easier, because their ability to grow is because they just have a track record where they phone a customer, and they love what they've done with them. And that doesn't mean it's easy to scale, it's still hard to scale. But he thinks that'd be the big thing right now, is seeing how by applying certain principles, you can stretch your own mindset, stretch your own goals, stretch your own vision for your business, and really start to play where you always believed you can.

Where can listeners find Alan online?

LinkedIn – Alan Versteeg

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Alan Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Alan shared that he has quite a few, but one of his favourites, because of its depth is, “How you do anything, is how you do everything.” And the reason that's so important is it's easy to be in a good mood when times are good, it's easy to be of a good character when times are good, it's easy to be a pleasant person when times are good, but when things are challenging, that's where your character gets tested.

And how you do anything, is how you do everything. And he says to leaders all the time, Richard Branson said it so well, “The best way to take care of your customers is to take care of your employees.” Because the minute you take care of the employees, the customers feel that. And it's because how you do anything, is how you do everything.

You can't be polite to your customers but rude to the person waiting at you at a restaurant or trying to help you at the airport. Airports are so fascinating because everyone complains to people who are really just trying to get you somewhere safely and within strict guidelines that people, they don't treat people well.

And he believes that how you do anything, is how you do everything. And in challenging times, that tests you, can I remain of good spirit?

Can I remain a good demeanor?

Can I remain patient as a person when things are difficult?

Can I maintain my faith?

Because it's easy to maintain my faith when things are great, it's difficult when you're in the lion's den, and that's for him, a quote that just guides him and says, just remember, they still shape your character, this is a test of your character and a bad day for the ego, is a beautiful day for the soul. It's time to grow.

Me: Well, thank you, Alan, so much for hopping on this podcast and sharing all of these great insights with us. It was very insightful to understand your perspective as it relates to sales and customer service, and to reinforce a lot of what we do talk about on this podcast, Navigating the Customer Experience as it relates to ensuring that the customer experience is not just managed effectively on the outside, but it needs to start on the inside. And you said it beautifully when you gave Richard Branson's quote that if you take care of your people on the inside, and they'll definitely take care of your customers on the outside. So, I think it was a really great conversation and I just really wanted to extend our deepest gratitude for your participation in our conversation today.

Alan shared an extended thanks to Yanique and the work she’s doing in this space. One of the things that he definitely picks up in everything Yanique shared, the customer experience is not a thing, it's a culture and when we actually realize this, everything becomes easier, because it seems obvious, it does take a lot of work, as you know, it's a profession. But when companies understand it, the only reason we exist is to create value for customers, then the customer experience is the report card. So, thank you so much for the work you're doing in this space and for having him on the show.

Please connect with us on X @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience.

Links

• You’re Born an Original, Don’t Die a Copy by John Mason

• Selling With Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud by Lisa Earle McLeod

• To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others by Daniel H. Pink

• The Slight Edge: Turning Simple Disciplines into Massive Success and Happiness by Jeff Olson

• The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller

• 10x Is Better Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
240: Elevating Customer Experience: Neil Leyland on AI, Machine Learning, and Transforming Contact Centers with Neil Leyland
27 aug· Navigating the Customer Experience
Neil Leyland is a Chief Contact Center Strategist at InterVision, and he is an exceptional PMP and six Sigma black belt certified senior-level program leader and a proven problem-solver. A highly motivated achiever with a career history in sales and operations management for international multi-unit retail operations.

Possessing excellent interpersonal, presentation, written and verbal communication skills, which are used to solve problems, consult on technology projects and develop long-term collaborative relationships.

Questions

· Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?

· When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?

· Could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that has impacted you either professionally or personally.

· Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Neil’s Journey

Me: Neil, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Neil stated that you can probably tell, he’s not from the US, although he’s based there now. Finishing up from university, he went straight into working for enterprise, Rent a Car, did probably 20 or so years with them. Worked from the main counter at a rental office all the way through to leading an area. Then he moved countries during that time and started working more on the technology side and being far more strategic as opposed to tactical.

Then settled in St. Louis, got married, had kids, and then moved through several different companies, picking up good and bad practices along the way, and he’s ended up at just coming up to 12 months now with InterVision.

About InterVision

Me: Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?

Neil shared InterVision is an AWS premier tier partner. They specialize in transforming contact centers to their flagship product, Connective CX, powered by Amazon Connect. They also integrate AI to deliver seamless omnichannel engagements. They address common pain points for call centers, like reducing call volume and the costs associated, they do this through improve engaging efficiency and also enhance customer satisfaction. They can be found at www.intervision.com.

His role within InterVision, he would say is a Contact Center Evangelist. So, he works with clients and look at problems that they face, and then help them find what is either the best operational or technological solution to best satisfy customers’ needs or solve problems that the companies have been satisfying those needs, so tying together his history working in retail, as well as time and technology, and sort of blending the two, to give what people consider to be a best in class solution for them.

Understanding the Approach in AI and Machine Learning in the Contact Centre

Me: So, you are in the contact center space, and your strategy is to ensure that you have a holistic approach using AI and machine learning, two very popular words that are being used very frequently in the CX space. When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?

Neil stated that he thinks it's actually good to approach it from a journey perspective, if you will. So, if you think about somebody that has a transaction, whether that be online or in person, and then they need some level of support. So, they come through to a contact center, and at that point, contact centers have really embraced AI and machine learning to help customers come through and get a better level of experience. So, whether that be at the starting point when they answer the phone, you can have chatbots either on the website or on the IVR that are able to answer and interact with customers and provide them with quick hit answers and potentially resolve problems for them quickly and efficiently. Now that's one use of AI.

People say, well, is that going to replace people?

He doesn't think it does, because it solves the simple problems AI and ML doesn't have the ability to solve.

So, when people do get to an agent or somebody on the phone, or whether a chat or send an email and get a reply, the agents are able to spend that little bit more time to solve a problem, so it elevates the customer experience even though it's not necessarily AI based.

When you think about that side though, you get AI does weave its way in there and provide agents with the ability to serve customers or call us better. So, you get crazy things like, there are AI tools out there now that will listen to the conversation, will understand the context of it, understand the ask and serve up knowledge or information to the agent real time, so they can better solve the problem.

So, it will literally know this customer sounds like they have a question about x, here's the most common answers to x, is this the right thing to say and serve that up to the agent.

So, the agents might not have any real experience of the problem, but they've got a proven history of other people being able to solve that question, or a very similar question, quickly and efficiently, and they can copy it. And then that really helps agents appear to be more efficient, more friendly, and for everybody that's listening, and everyone's been put on hold. No one likes to be put on hold, or “I don't know the answer to that, let me transfer you”, that can go away, which is really, really profound and gives a perception of quality well and above the norm.

And then the other side of it that's kind of cool, is you can have sentiment monitoring. So, if somebody's listening to this call, the AI or ML in the background will be monitoring it, and they can flag calls to supervisors or to other people to say, “Hey, Neil's really happy with this call. Neil's unhappy with this call. We might need some help. Somebody may need to join this call because Neil's struggling with it.”

So, it basically not only gives the ability to empower people and have them answer questions well, but it gives them monitoring so that people can actually get involved and engaged and help customers that have got problems and prevent issues, if that makes sense.

Me: Yes, it absolutely does. I attended a conference, I think it was the first and second of May, hosted by a company called CX Outsourcers Mindshare. They brought together, I believe, close to 80 persons from all over the world, from all different continents, that were in the contact center space. And my role at the event was, I sat on a podcast panel with a podcaster from Brazil and one from South Africa talking about the influence of podcasting on customer experience and the impact that it will have in the contact center space.

One of the things that I found fascinating at the conference, and this was predominantly I believe in, I know in the Caribbean for sure, and definitely in Africa, and you can let me know what your feedback is based on your exposure and experience that hiring, in terms of recruitment was a big issue that they were facing in the contact centers and trying to integrate AI and more importantly, as it relates to recruitment, ensuring that as they go forward and AI is more integrated into the whole process of solving customers problems, having AI do the more simplistic activities and tasks, and then having the agents do more complex tasks. Is that a trend that you've seen happening? Or is there anything else that you'd like to add to that conversation?

Neil shared that it definitely is. It's causing an upskilling, or an appearance of upskilling of people that answer the phone or answer the chats. Because when he started in the contact center space, companies would train an agent for 4, 6, 8 weeks, maybe even more to make sure that they have the skill set and the knowledge to be able to answer not just 80%.

Neil shared that Yanique is absolutely correct that AI and machine learning is having a profound impact on the agents and upskilling, because the ability for machines to take away the simpler tasks means that agents can do things that are more interesting and rewarding for one. So, that makes the job more fun, that's an important component.

The other side is, years ago, as companies brought people on board, they'd spend weeks and weeks training them, and nowadays that's just not necessary, because most companies have invested, or are looking to invest in a single pain so all of the information is shared to them, and when that's augmented by machine learning to provide sensible text or answers or knowledge that's appropriate, agents appear to be more knowledgeable with less training, faster and that gives a great different for companies that are embracing it. It's a great differentiate. It really helps the agents feel valued, enjoy the job, and therefore more likely to be retained and that skill level is retained.

So, generally, companies that companies that retain the skill gets better over time, and it also the other piece is, he thinks it helps companies attract people, because the job is more fun and more rewarding. So, the benefits not only in the people that work there, it's about getting the better talent in the front door as well.

App, Website or Tool that Neil Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he can’t live without in his business, Neil shared that for him personally, and this is going to sound a little bit old school, he absolutely loves using YouTube, and he will go visit YouTube looking for how to build a presentation, looking for information, ways to do things, learnings, classes, he finds a great value with day to day, he’s looking at YouTube and watching videos on lots and lots of topics continually, because he thinks it's a quick and easy way to learn how to do something new or refine what he’s doing based on somebody else's best practices, whether that be consultants that have classes on how to do PowerPoint presentations, or even people that do public speaking regularly and share tips and trades on how they do it. So, he uses YouTube a lot, and slowly but surely, he thinks that's starting to be replaced a little bit by TikTok, because he likes 60 second bites as opposed to 20-minute videos.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Neil

When asked about books that have had an impact, Neil shared that books that he really enjoyed and got a lot out of is a book called Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins, it's an older book now, but it's been around for a good few years that definitely influenced his working life, because the ideology is all in the title. So, how can you be better, and how can you differentiate yourself or the company you work for, and make a difference, and then elevate to go from being a good company to a great company or a good employee to a great employee. So, that's one of the books that definitely influenced his career. And he really enjoyed the fact that it had case studies in there that you were able to look at, read and understand, and then it gives you that a little bit more of a practical application when there's case studies that you can look at.

What Neil is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Neil shared that he’s been with InterVision approximately 12 months, and in that time, they've had a tremendous amount of growth.

They are working a significant amount with Amazon, on Amazon Connect in the contact center space, and watching how that's changing the contact center space is really, really incredible. And with that, they have releases on a weekly or biweekly basis, and you see new technologies and new items come out, and it's actually an interesting challenge making sure that his team is not only at the cutting edge of technology, but what's new and modern today is, for want of a better description, a month old in a month's time.

And making sure that his team are kept current and up to date with all of these technology changes, specifically around AI and ML, that's really an interesting challenge, because the solutions of a year ago aren't solutions for today, and he finds that both interesting challenge from a business perspective, but it's also rewarding because you get the opportunity to have people do training classes and learnings to make sure that they're at the top of their skill game to be able to deliver the best in class products that they like to offer.

Where can listeners find Neil online?

LinkedIn – Neil Leyland

Website – www.intervision.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Neil Uses

Me: Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Neil shared that it's not quite that, but there's a phrase that he often thinks about in challenges when he’s working with his colleagues, or they're looking at a project and how to move forward, and it's directly related to customer service and it's, “The tolerance of poor behaviour is worse than the behaviour itself.”

Me: That's such a powerful statement.

Neil shared that he loves it because it's applicable everywhere. In your personal life, you can choose not to go to the gym, or you can go to the gym. In work, you can watch people do things and managers do things or accept things and that they shouldn't and as soon as a behaviour becomes ingrained, it's far more challenging to remove it.

Me: Yeah, agreed. Thank you so much for sharing.

So, we just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Neil, for hopping on our podcast today, sharing about InterVision, about your journey, as well as what you're doing at InterVision, the impact of AI and machine learning, the opportunity that workers have in the centers as agents to upskill their competencies and behaviours so that they can better serve customers and solve problems quicker. It was really a rewarding and engaging conversation, and I want to just extend our deepest gratitude to you. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
239: Navigating Burnout, Building Resilience, and Fostering Relationships for Success with Dr. Eric Recker
20 aug· Navigating the Customer Experience
Dr. Eric Recker is a dentist, husband, father, keynote speaker, Elite Success Coach, author, pilot, mountain climber and recovering triathlete. In his second half of life, he is committed to helping people shorten the distance to becoming their best version and learning to #WINtheNOW.

Questions

· We'd love for you to share in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you share maybe two or three overarching themes that you believe have been the core values that have driven you to get to where you are today, and if other people were to embrace or embody those same core values, you believe they would achieve the same success.

· What would you say are some of the success tools that have made both businesses thrive in a positive way, if you were to look at them and see if there are any overlapping behaviors or competencies that help to strengthen the customer experience in both areas.

· Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Now, could you also share with our listeners, Eric, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you. It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has impacted you, both professionally and even personally.

· Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off course, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Eric’s Journey

Me: Eric, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their own journey. So, your bio basically gave us a very short summary of all the wonderful things that you have and are still doing, but we'd love for you to share in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Eric shared that he really could give a short version of that, and it would take about 4 hours, but he'll try to really crunch it down together and say that he was bullied on the playground when he was growing up. He grew up in a small town in Iowa in the early 80s, and recess kickball was life, and he was told that he couldn't play because he wasn't good enough, and so unfortunately, that you are not good enough became a soundtrack for him, and he told himself on the sideline of that recess kickball field that he was going to be so good at everything he ever did that no one would ever not pick him.

Well, fast forward into his professional career as a dentist, he truly believed that he wasn't good enough, so he overshot on everything, overcompensated on everything, always kept adding more and more and more because he was trying to prove to other people that he was good enough. That led to three significant rounds of burnout, including chest pain, heart palpitations, panic attacks, all of that to the point that he got very close to selling his dental practice and walking away.

When that all fell through, he needed to step back and decide what he really wanted to do with this life, and he knew that he had a powerful story. He'd been through a lot, and he wanted to be able to help other people on their journey.

So, what he does now is he has sold half of his dental practice to a partner. He sees patients three days a week, and the other days he speak and coach and write books and do content and all of those kinds of things, trying to help other people on their journey, so that they don't have to go as far down the burnout trail as he went.

Me: That is awesome. What a wonderful story.

Core Values for Success - Themes that Drive Achievement and Fulfillment

Me: So, Eric, you speak a lot about burnout and mindset and just handling the different stresses of life, can you share with our listeners on your own personal journey, when you got to that point, when you realized that you needed to make a change? If you could share maybe two or three overarching themes that you believe have been the core values that have driven you to get to where you are today, and if other people were to embrace or embody those same core values, you believe they would achieve the same success.

Eric shared that first of all, where it all went wrong each time that he went through that terrible season of burnout, he noticed the same equation now that he looks back on it, kind of doing a forensic examination of it was over committed. He had too much on his plate, as a lot of us do, but even more importantly, he wasn't taking care of himself, he just kept going. He just kept adding more and more, and that's where the problem was.

So, one of the big core values that he has is taking care of himself. So, we have to be a little bit selfish so that we can be selfless. If we don't have anything to give, we won't be able to give anything to our people. We won't be able to have an impact on those that we are around, and we will definitely get burned out.

Another huge core value for him is relationships. He’s a highly relational person, and it's extremely important to him that he has some good quality relationships in his life, and it's important for all of us. So, he has a mentor that he meets with, he has a coach that he works with, and he has 4 people that he would consider, 2:00 am friends, people that he could call in the middle of the night if his world fell apart. So, relationships and self-care would be two of the big things that he thinks we really need to be careful and make sure we embrace those.

Me: Absolutely love those two themes that you've shared with us.

Success Tools for Thriving Businesses - Overlapping Behaviors and Competencies that Enhance Customer Experience

Me: Now, I love the fact that one of your themes was relationships, and a big part of customer experience, as this podcast is focused on navigating the customer experience is building strong relationships. All organizations aim to have customers for life, and a big part of that is building strong relationships with those customers, whether it be a B2B or a B2C. Since you pretty much managing two businesses, because you mentioned that you coach and you write books and you do speeches and stuff for organizations and people, and then you also have your practice where you're in office three days per week. What would you say are some of the success tools that have made both businesses thrive in a positive way, if you were to look at them and see if there are any overlapping behaviours or competencies that help to strengthen the customer experience in both areas.

Eric shared that one thing that he teaches his team is to be aware of the rest of the story, it's a huge thing for him. People are complicated, so, in his dental practice, people will come in and they'll maybe see them for an hour of their life, and they might be grumpy when they come in, they might be scared, they might be, however they present themselves to them is just a snapshot of how their life is going. They may not be taking very good care of themselves, they may be in a bad place, they may have gotten a diagnosis, they may have a family member that's really struggling, they may have any number of things that's going on. They may be crazy burned out, and they get to see a little snapshot of them.

So, when somebody comes in, they don't seem like themselves, or if they've just met them, and they're kind of off putting to them at the beginning, just understand that they're seeing a snapshot of a bigger picture of someone's life. And so, he thinks it's always important that they think about that, they don't always get the chance to know the whole person, but especially in someone that you've been in relationship with for a while, if they seem off, then there's something more going on, and it might be worth exploring that.

Me: So, you're lying in the dentist chair, right? And what would you call the person that's serving the client, a dental assistant? And the dental assistant picks up that the patient is agitated, walk us through that. What would you want he or she to do to kind of have the patient relax, maybe build some conversation. Do you just have casual talk? Do you pick a topic, maybe about the weather? Do you think about something that's maybe current affairs, like Donald Trump?

Eric shared that he definitely stays away from politics. Stay away from politics and hot button news things, that's for sure. People get pretty fired up about that. But exactly that scenario that you had. The great thing about his practice is a lot of the patients that he sees, he’s been seeing for 20 years. And so, when they come in, if something doesn't seem right, then they'll ask them,

“Hey, is everything going okay today?”

“Well, I'm just really nervous about this procedure.”

“Okay, well, tell me more about that.”

And a lot of times, really all someone needs to do is voice what they're feeling or talk about the procedure before they do it, and then it becomes a lot easier. And if it doesn't, if they're still amped up, they say things like, “Hey, the good news is this is all the longer this procedure is going to be. So, in half the time it takes to watch a movie, you're going to be on your way.”

So, they try to break it into more manageable chunks if people are apprehensive, and sometimes they have to take a little break and just let everybody sit up and breathe. And then they get back into it. But they really try to meet the patient right where they are and help them work through the situation, because it doesn't do any good if they're escalated, and Eric’s team is escalated, then they're going to have a hard time getting through the procedure.

App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about on online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Eric shared that for him, he would just say that it's his own personal website, it's hugely important whenever he gets asked, “So, hey, where do we find you? How can we get in touch with you. How can we learn more about you?” He’s very proud of his website, he had a great web designer, but through there, everything flows to his social media, to his blog, to his books, to the different opportunities that he has, some free online resources. It’s something that he’s very thankful that he spent some money on, because it's the way that a lot of people end up finding him.

Me: Perfect. And we will ask you the question for where our listeners can find you online, which I'm sure your website will be one of those resources later on in the episode.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Eric shared that two of them definitely come to mind. One is going to be, and a lot of people have probably heard of this one is Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear, just an incredible resource. We are the product of our habits and our routines. It is worth taking time to get good habits and routines in our lives, because everything else flows from those patterns that are in our life. So, that's a huge one.

Another one that many people probably have not heard of as much is called In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day: How to Survive and Thrive When Opportunity Roars and that's by one of his favorite authors, Mark Batterson, and it describes what we do when adversity hits in our lives, because it's not a question of if, it's a question of when things are going to happen to us, and how do we react to those things.

What Eric is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Eric stated that he mentioned the whole not good enough, and the paradigm that that presented him with. So, he used to do a lot of triathlons, mountain climbing, stuff like that, he went all the way through the Iron Man distance. He’s climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, all of that was pretty much done on a faulty operating system that he had in his mind that he wasn't good enough and he needed to prove himself to people.

So, it's really been about 7 years since he’s done any kind of an endurance race or anything like that. He’s climbed some smaller mountains and done some stuff like that. But there's an event that he’s going to be doing the second week of August, and it's going to be at Snow Basin Resort in Utah, and it's called 29029, which is the vertical height of Mount Everest above sea level. So, the goal is, in 36 hours, he has to hike 29,000 vertical feet.

Me: Wow.

Eric shared that that's usually the first word that people say. So, what he will do is, he'll hike up this mountain, and each time he goes up, he will gain 2300 feet. So, he will hike the same mountain 13 times. So, hike up the mountain, and he will ride the gondola back down. And there's going to be 250 to 300 of them he believes that will be there doing this. And his goal for this is to one, he wanted to train for an event again, he really wanted to be focused and intentional about how he trained for it.

But the other thing that he wants to do is he wants to learn about mindset while he’s doing it. He wants to learn what happens in his mind when he does a repetitive task for 36 hours. He wants to learn where does his mind goes on hikes number 7, 8 and 9, when he can't see the beginning of the hike and he can't see the end, and he’s really in the grind, because he thinks a lot of this will translate into our lives and what we have going on personally. So, he hopes this will be something that he'll be able to give some talks and workshops about in the future. And so, just want to see at 47 years old, just want to see what his body's got in it, what his abilities are.

Me: That's amazing, Eric, wow. I'm going to have to follow you. Are you going to be posting this on your social media?

Eric confirmed, absolutely.

Me: This is fantastic. I would definitely follow you from a personal capacity, just to see, as you mentioned, how do you endure? What are your thoughts? Is it that you feel overcome? Does it impact you emotionally? Like there's so many questions running through my mind right now just listening to you.

Eric stated that he’s excited. There's one time he knows as he’s hiking up that for that whole, he expects it to take about an hour and 15 minutes, probably to hike each time, and at least one of those times he’s just going to be completely quiet and he’s just going to observe the world around me. His son has made him a couple playlists, so he'll listen to some music that he selected for him. One of the times, he’s just going to pray for his family the entire time that he hikes up. So, he has a few of those things. And then, other than that, just going to see what happens. So, he’s super excited about it.

Me: And I guess it's a time also for you to kind of be one with nature and God, because you don't have much distraction, and hopefully you have no injuries, I pray in the name of Jesus that you come out of this injury free. So, you could really meditate, talk to God, as you mentioned, pray for your family and that's something that we don't get to do every day, have moments of silence, because we're just always so busy doing busy work.

Eric agreed that Yanique is so correct. He thinks if people really want their life to change, start with 5 minutes of silence each day, “Well, Eric, why only 5 minutes?” because it's not easy and we're not used to it. Start with 5 minutes of silence and breathing each day and see what that does for you, it's so important, you know this.

Where can listeners find Eric online?

Website – www.ericrecker.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Eric shared that his quote is a Bible verse, and it is Proverbs 3:5-6, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will keep your path straight.” God has been the constant for his journey all the way through, He's been there in the good times and bad times, in the other times, and he’s trying his best to trust that He always knows what the next step is.

Me: I love that. Absolutely love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Eric.

Well, Eric, you have definitely practiced what you preach in this entire interaction that I've had with you. Thank you so very much for being a guest on our podcast, I believe that our listeners would have gained, when the episode is released, will gain a great amount of knowledge, expertise, advice, motivation. I got that from our conversation, and I can tell that you're not just speaking because it's something to do, but it's coming from your heart, and that touches people way more. I mean, people can tell if you're being authentic and genuine, if it's really coming from a place of authenticity, and I feel that in the conversation that I had with you today. So, I just want to express my deepest gratitude to you. Wish you all the best on your hike, I'm going to be there following and cheering you on and just want to say thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear

• In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day: How to Survive and Thrive When Opportunity Roars by Mark Batterson

Mastering Art of Service Excellence: Behavioural Tools and Competencies for CX Success Webinar – Tuesday, August 27, 2024 – 11:00 am (EST)

Mastering Art of Service Excellence Webinar Details and Registration
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238: Mastering Software Reliability with Daniel Ruby
13 aug· Navigating the Customer Experience
Daniel Ruby is a VP of Marketing at Nobl9. Ruby is a dynamic marketing executive with a focus on B2B marketing, and has significant experience building teams and driving successful, data-driven programs for a range of startups and mid-sized organizations. As the Director of Online Marketing for Localytics, Ruby was the first marketing hire and scaled his team to a full-fledged marketing department with domain specialists focused on mobile apps.

Ruby also has a background in journalism and spent several years guest lecturing marketing courses at Bentley University, bringing this dynamic skill set to his current role at Nobl9. Ruby holds a BA in Broadcast Journalism from the University of Missouri-Columbia and an MBA in International Business from Brandeis University.

Questions

· We always like to start off by asking our guests if they could share with us a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you share with our listeners, what is Nobl9 and what exactly are you providing? What service are you providing? How are you adding value to your customers lives using this platform?

· Could you give us an example, like a use case of an application, you can choose any industry, and kind of just give us an idea of what that looks like so the audience can get a more practical view.

· Could distinguish or differentiate for our listeners, what's the difference between an SLO and an SLA?

· Now, Daniel, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track.

Highlights

Daniel’s Journey

Me: Now, Daniel, could you share with our listeners, we always like to start off by asking our guests if they could share with us a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Daniel shared that he was a journalist for a while, and kind of realized that there was not much of a market for it, so he kind of went and got an MBA to get a job, and kind of fell backwards into marketing as it is. And over the years, he’s been with more than 10, mostly 10 startups, driving marketing, driving the customer experience in terms of from the moment that they're introduced to them as a brand until the moment that they no longer want to be or need to be working with them.

He finds a lot of joy in trying to make that experience pleasant, for lack of a better term. He’s self-taught with most of the marketing stuff that he does, and he’s kind of over the course of the years he’s become very arrogantly convinced about a few core tenets of really communicating to customers and communicating to potential customers that have served him well, and it kind of always comes back to giving value at every step of the journey.

About Nobl9 – Enhancing Software Reliability and Value for Your Business

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners, what is Nobl9 and what exactly are you providing? What service are you providing? How are you adding value to your customers lives using this platform?

Daniel shared that Nobl9 is basically a platform for software reliability. So, if we think about how somebody engages with a digital product, or even an in-person product with a digital back end to it. They are the premier, and kind of really only well-established provider of what's called Service Level Objectives, or SLOs. And an SLO was basically taking all of the different data points that make up your product, be it from the software, from the infrastructure, from third party microservices, etc, etc, etc, and rolls it up and actually gives a customer centric view into how reliable is their product.

And the reason that they do this is because most reliability, historically has been around is the product up. Is it up? Is it down? But anybody who's ever used a mobile app or a digital product, or even like a scan to pay service at a cafe knows that it's not just is it up? Is it working, or is everything within it doing what it's supposed to do?

So, he knows marketers like himself have taken the word holistic and kind of beaten it to death. But they do provide a holistic customer centric view. What is the customer experience like when actually using your product?

Me: So, Nobl9 is helping the application to maintain its reliability and have as little or no downtime as possible while the customer is interacting with it correct?

Daniel agreed, correct and kind of beyond downtime, is it, does it load fast enough?

Do all of the different features load fast enough?

Is there anything blocking my ability as a customer to buy from you or to use your service, or whatever you're trying to do?

So, that's effectively what they do.

Practical Use Case – How Nobl9 Enhances Software Reliability

Me: Okay, could you give us an example, like a use case of an application, you can choose any industry, and kind of just give us an idea of what that looks like so the audience can get a more practical view.

Daniel shared that it's a little engineering, and he’s a marketer so he feels like he’s not necessarily smart enough to completely understand the engineering speak of it. But if you think about like an Ecommerce app, if you open up the app and it loads in traditional reliability, that's reliable. But how many times have you gone into an app.

So, let's say your path in using E commerce app is, you’re going to load the app, going to search for the product that he wants to buy, he’s going to add it to his cart, he’s going to go to his cart, he’s going to check out. And maybe there's a login to My Account somewhere in the way.

With SLOs, what you can do is you can have all of the different steps of that path viewed as part of this overarching experience with the app. So, if you go to add something to your cart, the app sits there and hangs, that's not good reliability.

If you go to the cart itself, and for whatever reason you go to pay and like the app's connection to PayPal for whatever reason isn't working, and you get this message back that says, hey, we can't complete your payment, try another credit card or something, that's a bad experience. And that's the kind of reliability breakdown that leads people to quit using a product.

So, they make sure that strategically, all of the things that make up that path, you'll have a server dedicated to your shopping cart, you'll have a micro service that is dedicated to completing a purchase. They make sure that all of that you've got visibility into how the experience is for the end user, not just some third-party service that tries to connect and says yes, it can connect, no it can't connect. It's the whole experience of a digital product and they make it easy to understand.

Understanding the Difference – SLOs vs. SLAs

Me: Now, at the beginning, you mentioned that it's based on your SLOs or Service Level Objectives. And just wanted to know if you could distinguish or differentiate for our listeners, what's the difference between an SLO and an SLA?

Daniel stated that that’s a great question. So, an SLA is typically an agreement that you have with your users. You say you'll be able to use my product or my service xx percent of the time. And that's more of a contractual conversation than it is, a reliability conversation. When you start actually building it, in order to make sure that you're achieving this SLA that you’ve agreed upon with your clients, you've got to make sure that you know all of these different elements of their experience are operating at a certain efficiency. So, he hates to over complicate things, but there's actually a step in between called an SLI, a Service Level Indicator.

And so, a Service Level Indicator is things like, “I want my website to load in less than 100 milliseconds.” That's a Service Level Indicator. And the SLI is effectively a consistent goal, but then what you do with SLOs is you take that a little bit further.

So, an SLO operates within what's called an error budget, and you get a certain number of errors per month, per week, however, you want to set it up. And an error is when you don't meet that SLI and you say, “I know that it's maybe not impossible, but either improbable or just extremely expensive to make my website load in less than 100 seconds every single time.”

So, what an SLO does is it says, okay, I expect to meet this SLI however often I have decided is actually impactful on the customer experience, and whenever I don't, you get an error, and at that point, you're like, okay, it's an error, but an error is not an outage.

Daniel stated that he doesn't know if he’s explaining this really well, but basically if you look at an SLO graph, it's going to be going down into the right and that is your budget. You say, okay, I expect this part of my service will meet my everyday life 95% of the time. And then you see the little graph going down, which, every time it doesn't meet that, it froze an error, and a certain amount of errors, it's just part of digital product development is understanding that you have to accept some errors. 100% perfection, it's impossible.

Me: Does not exist.

Daniel agreed, it does not exist. And a lot of people think about reliability in the number of nines, “My product is available 99.99% of the time.” That would be called four nines. Every nine that you add to that number basically increases your IT costs by an order of magnitude. So, at a certain point, you got to understand with SLOs are really the ideal way to do it.

At what point does this actually impact my customers?

At what point does this actually impact my users?

It allows you to be strategic, and it allows you to see things when they begin. So, you mentioned outages earlier, an outage, your whole product crashes, it's unavailable to anybody. Those don't happen in a vacuum, there's something that causes them. And if you've got an SLO or a set of SLOs really, displaying the health of your service, the health of your product, you're suddenly going to see a bunch of errors coming in.

And you may or may not have enough forewarning to say, “Oh, crap, we're about to have an outage. Well, this server in my cloud provider is having massive latency issues, it looks like the server is about to crash, and that's going to take everything down.” You can have a little bit more of a runway to try and identify the actual issue behind a potential outage. And that's where you strategically define how much, how many errors can I tolerate in a month?

And then you basically have a real time view at all times.

Is my product, is my service running the way I expect it to, and the way I expect it to is from the perspective of the customer. Are my customers able to do what they expect to be able to do when they launch my app, or when they use my product.

App, Website or Tool that Daniel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Daniel shared that personally, it's HubSpot. He spent a few years as a HubSpot consultant, a third-party consultant for HubSpot integrations. And he could say a marketing automation platform, but he got a fanboy a little bit about HubSpot because it takes everything that used to be complicated about sales and marketing and customer support and customer experience, and kind of rolls it up. You’ve got your CRM, you've got your automation platform, you've got your email platform. He’s actually taken to feeding his HubSpot metrics into Nobl9 SLO lately, because there's so much rich data within HubSpot.

And he’s been running little things like, they'll change a script for their biz dev team. And then they'll just run a metric on calls connected to calls having a success, either a demo or a follow up request.

And HubSpot’s got such great data, and then he can turn that into an SLO where he can say, “Okay, I expect the submission rate on my forms to be X percent. I expect the completion rate of our inside sales calls to be X percent over 80% of the time.”

And he can run that in an SLO, he can see that like if he changes something, but simple little things, if he changes the colour of the submit button on a form, he can see in real time what the view to submission rate is that's changing, and he can act on that. He can put a little note in the SLO with that time stamp and say, “Hey, I changed the color of this button” and see how that's making an impact. Or, if he looks in HubSpot and see, “Oh, crap, my submission rate has been terrible for the past 36 hours, what's happened?” And he can go into his SLO and say, “Oh, there’s a little note here, I changed something in the UX. I changed something colour wise. I added a question, I removed a question.” And you see direct historical cause for that.

But going back to HubSpot in general, he really respects HubSpot’s approach to they call it the flywheel, which is all about delighting customers and delighting prospects.

And they really do a great job of giving you the tools to actually give value in your marketing and sales and customer service processes. He doesn't know what he’s do without HubSpot right now, he'd probably try and hack something together with Salesforce and Marketo and be more complicated and less easy to get adoption internally. But luckily, he doesn't need to.

Where can listeners find Daniel online?

LinkedIn – Nobl9inc

X – @nobl9inc

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Daniel Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert, Daniel shared, “Nothing is a failure unless you fail to learn from it.” He stated that he’s got a great team that he works with at Nobl9. And some are early in their career, some have been working in marketing for several years, some have advanced degrees, some don't.

And so, he’s been with Nobl9 since January, and one of the things that he wanted to do quickly was make sure that people were comfortable making mistakes and understanding that an action and its outcome is not the end of that process. If you don't learn from it, why it worked, why it didn't, then you've made a mistake. But failure is as important an element in driving success in any business scenario. So, he likes making sure that people know that, and he likes making sure that they feel comfortable, because without being comfortable with failure, how are you going to try anything revolutionary?

Me: True. Thank you so much for sharing, Daniel.

Now, we just like to thank you so much for hopping on this podcast and sharing all of the great insights about Nobl9, the wonderful work that your team is doing as it relates to ensuring that customers are having a more seamless and frictionless experience across these platforms and increases the reliability. And we really appreciate some of the great nuggets that you shared with us as it relates to what is a Service Level Objective versus a Service Level Agreement and a Service Level Indicator, great information to learn, to understand the whole process, because in order to navigate the customer experience, there is really a lot that you have to take into account to ensure that the customer walks away feeling like, yeah, that was that was fun, it was easy, it wasn't hard, and I was able to do it really quickly. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

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237: Empathy and Innovation in Customer Success with Irina Vatafu
7 aug· Navigating the Customer Experience
Irina Vatafu has nearly a decade of experience in customer-facing roles, she is deeply passionate about working with people, and dedicated to ensuring every customer feels valued and respected. Currently serving as the Head of Customer Success at Custify, Irina thrives in roles that require effective communication, problem-solving and empathetic engagement.

Her commitment to continuous improvement and staying current with industry trends ensures that her approach remains innovative and impactful. One of her key strengths is creating a collaborative and supportive environment that consistently delivers exceptional experiences and fosters strong customer loyalty. At the heart of her work is a dedication to championing the needs and voices of customers, which continues to inspire and drive her every single day.

Questions

· Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

· You are Head of Customer Success at Custify, could you share with our listeners, what Custify is and what your company does?

· What would you say are maybe two or three attributes or competencies that you and your team need to have on a daily basis in serving these customer success managers so they can serve their own customers?

· Now in terms of exercising empathy, could you share with our listeners maybe a use case where your customer had an issue. So, your customer came to you as the problem solver and you were able to exercise as empathetic engagement to basically try and help them to solve the problem quickly.

· Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you professionally, and even personally.

· Now, Irina, can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes of we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Irina’s Journey

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

Irina stated that's a great start. So, where she was, as mentioned in the beginning, she has nearly a decade of working in customer-facing roles. And her first role was as a support engineer, and now she’s managing the team of Customer Success Managers and support team members. So, she started in first line there, she learned everything, and she was so passionate about working with customers that she always pushed herself to learn more, to offer better experiences, to progress and to make sure everyone is happy with her work and people that she works with are successful. So, yeah, baby steps, she arrived where she is today, and she’s so grateful for that.

About the Custify – What Does Custify Do?

Me: So, you are Head of Customer Success at Custify correct? Could you share with our listeners, what Custify is and what your company does?

Irina shared that they are the CSMs of CSMs, she would say because their platform is a customer success tool. So, their end users, their customer success teams all over the world, they have customers in all countries, and they work with any business that has a SaaS product, so this is what they are doing.

And as mentioned, their users, their customer success managers, so they are dedicated customer success managers that support other customer success managers. So, they have to be a top-notch department in order to help them drive value and be successful with their tool.

Attributes or Competencies Needed Daily to Serve Customer Success Managers

Me: What would you say are maybe two or three attributes or competencies that you and your team need to have on a daily basis in serving these customer success managers so they can serve their own customers?

Irina shared that she thinks the first thing that she has on her mind is they need to be perfect active listeners. So, they really need to listen to their customers need and to understand each business case and to be there as consultants and to make sure that they have success in their own departments, so they can prove value, and they can be their loyal customers for a long time.

Other things that matter of course to have that business understanding. So, not only to actively listen, but to also be flexible and creative to give proper advice and to be able to quickly understand the customer use case in order to guide them towards success.

Of course, you also need to be super organized in order to act like a project manager and help your customers achieve their milestones on time and respect all the agreed deadlines that they established with them in the beginning.

And the last but not least, of course, you need to be a naturally empathetic person because if you don't really care, let's say about customers, they will feel that so you really need to be a people person, and to be able to have the empathy to help them.

Exercising Empathy – Using Empathy in Problem Solving

Me: Now in terms of exercising empathy, could you share with our listeners maybe a use case, you don't need to mention the customers’ name or the company, but maybe a use case where your customer had an issue, because all businesses are created to solve problems. So, your customer came to you as the problem solver, and you were able to exercise as you coin it “Empathetic engagement” to basically try and help them to solve the problem quickly.

Irina shared that she remembers, she has a recent example. It's something that their team really struggled about. They had a situation where one of their customers, the CS lead came to them saying that, “Look, we really need to make it work, because our jobs depend on that. Things are not great for our CS department. So, we really need to move forward and to prove progress to our leadership in order to keep this department working.” And this was the first priority for them because of course, their empathetic triggers were started working, and they were like, “Okay, we have an important role here, we need to help this customer.”

And what they did, they came up with a success plan, they sat together, and they thought about all the top three priorities that the leadership would care about. And they decided that look, these are the main things that they need to focus on in the next weeks. And even if this is not part of their normal flow, they had more meetings, they had more internal brainstorming. So, they did everything they could to help the customer.

And yes, in the end, the customer was really successful. And it's not only that, he would was grateful. But they also have more partnerships and other things that derives from that initiative. So, empathy always matters. And acting like humans when someone needs us and not only looking at the contract value and the service hours included in the subscription, she thinks they could make a difference at some point.

App, Website or Tool that Irina Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Irina shared that she thinks they internally rely a lot on what’s happening on LinkedIn, they are connected with a lot of CS influencers, and they are also following their customers on LinkedIn.

So, they stay connected to the market with what's happening there. And they are up to date with all the webinars, with all the podcasts and everything that is happening there. So, she thinks LinkedIn is their main source of learning, and where they also find other opportunities to learn by subscribing to different newsletters and courses and everything.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Irina

When asked about books that have had an impact, Irina shared that she has a funny story about the book. So, when she joined Custify, almost four years ago, she joined as a CSM and her manager told her that look, you should read this book, it's called Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It and she thinks it's Chris Voss who wrote it. And it's a negotiation book and when he told her to read that book, she was angry because the job description never included negotiation, let's say so she thought, okay, she was tricked, it's actually a sales role. And her manager now advises her to learn some negotiation skills.

But if you read the book, you will realize that you actually need negotiation skills in your day-to-day life. So, it's not about the selling or not selling something, it's really about what we need to do and negotiate for ourselves as human beings, and it makes an impact also in the professional life.

What Irina is Really Excited About Now!

Irina shared that that's a good question. So, she would say that at the beginning of this year, they as a team, they knew that it would be a tough year because of the economical context and everything that is happening in the CS life. So, she and her team decided to keep their minds and hearts open and to be the support that their customers need amid the chaos and instability that is around. So, they sat together and adapted their workflows and prioritized their champions success. So, they had like a redesign all their flows.

And they are amazed to discover that this makes a difference. So, when all the departments work towards the same goals, they empower each other, and they focus primarily on customer success. So, they work closely with product sales, CS support in order to make sure that their customers are happy, this is a great initiative that they started this year. And they observed and they are surprised to see how authenticity and trust, being their team's current focus leads to amazing KPIs and success. So, this is their main focus right now and they are looking forward to see how this year will end.

Where can listeners find Irina online?

LinkedIn - Irina Vatafu

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Irina Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Irina shared that yes, she thinks that's something that helps her in those situations. She’s always saying to herself, “When you don't know what to do, say the truth.” So, it always helped.

Me: So, be honest.

Well, thank you so much, Irina for jumping on this podcast and sharing all of the great insights that you're doing as a Customer Success Manager at Custify and also what your organization does, and the support that you are providing to teams all throughout the world, ensuring that they are able to solve problems and serve your customers in the best possible way. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule and sharing this information with us. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Chris Voss

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
236: Elevating Client Relationships: The Power of Thoughtfulness, Kindness, Caring and Empathy with Richard Weylman
30 jul· Navigating the Customer Experience
Richard Weylman was orphaned at age 6 and he lived in 19 foster homes and attended 11 different schools. Rather than becoming the victim of those circumstances, he overcame them and he has had remarkable business success, including as an award-winning General Sales Manager of Rolls Royce to Head Sales and Marketing for the Robb Report, a Magazine for the Luxury Lifestyle from its inception until its record liquidity event.

A Hall of Fame inducted Keynote Speaker, Richard has also been inducted into the Customer Experience Hall of Fame for his legendary work helping brands engage with their customers and retain them.

He is the author of two international bestsellers, the latest of which, The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace is in seven languages and is also a CEO Reads best seller.

His next book 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life was released on March 12th, and is available for pre-order on Amazon, or your favorite bookstore. Finally, he is a Horatio-Alger nominee for his philanthropic work on behalf of orphans and widows.

Questions

· Could you share with us in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

· This new book that was released almost 3 months now it's been out the book, 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life. Could you share with our listeners maybe 3 overarching themes that the book covers? And who is the book really geared towards?

· In your research, when you were talking to your different clients about the different ways that you can acquire and keep clients, did you find that there were some industries that were thriving with these four things that you've mentioned, based on the research and others?

· Now Richard, could you share with our audience maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

· Now, Richard, could you share with our audience what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights

Richard’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests a little opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. Could you share with us in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Richard shared that the key thing is when all of this stuff, he was an orphan, as mentioned in his introduction, and that was very kind. But he was orphaned, and he lived in 18 foster homes, went to 11 different schools. So, you learn just from life experiences, how to understand, how to adapt, how to connect, in his case with the people with whom he was living. But he thinks we all go through this similar journey in life, you learn how to connect or not with individuals. So, that really became the premise for all of his speaking and consulting.

And they are a research-based consulting firm, they do a great deal of research about what the consumers’ looking for, why they're looking for it. And most importantly, how salespeople, marketing people, business people can connect with the expectations, let's use that word, expectations of the consumer. So, that's what prompted his first book, Opening Closed Doors, Keys to Reaching Hard to Reach People then The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace, which was mentioned. And those are in seven languages.

And now his recent book, which really manifested itself after about October he would say in 2019, in the fall of 2019, it occurred to him that people were no longer talking about service anymore. They talked to people in their consulting projects, how would you rate the service of this company, and people didn't want to talk, they would say, “Well, the service is good. But let me tell you about the experience I had.” And it dawned on him that what people are really focused on good service is a minimum expectation today, what people really want, really want is an elevated experience, somebody who's thoughtful and kind and caring, and empathetic. So, that became the premise for the current book that's just come out, which is number one on Amazon hot new release. So, is that helpful?

About the Book – Who the Book is Geared Towards and it’s Overarching Themes – 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life

Me: So, you have this new book that was released almost 3 months now it's been out. And you said it's number one on the hot new list for Amazon. Could you share with our listeners maybe 3 overarching themes that the book covers? And who is the book really geared towards?

Richard stated that that’s it's a great question. The book itself is really geared, we'll start there, who reads this book? Anybody in sales, marketing, service, leadership, he’s had over 2000 individuals that he knows of that are in either leadership roles or top advisors, top salespeople who have sent him emails because of the epiphany moments they've had in it and the reason he thinks that so many different types of people, it doesn't matter what industry, he’s got people in real estate, he got a bunch of emails this morning, people in real estate, attorney, doctors, he had a dentist sent him an email, hairdresser.

So, it really doesn't matter what industry you're in. What really matters is do you want to acquire and keep your clients for life? And he guesses the obvious question is, “Why wouldn't you want to keep your clients for life, given the cost of acquisition?”

So, when he wrote the book, he didn't write it for any industry, he wrote it for individuals that really did want to, shall we say, connect with their customers or their clients in such a way that those individuals would never buy from anyone else in their space. And it really is the premise is to understand the lifetime value of a customer or a client.

And a lot of business owners, and certainly salespeople, we don't often think about the lifetime value, we sell somebody something and we see it as a transaction. When you sell someone, it's not the end of something, it's the beginning of what could very well become a lifetime relationship with that individual every single time they need something that you may offer, they can reach out to you, and they become a customer for life. So, the question is, how do you do it? So, that's where the premise of the book came from and who he wrote it for.

So, one of the overarching themes in interviewing literally hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of consumers. And the number really reaches over 1000 in all of their consulting work over the years from 2019 until now when he wrote the book, he would ask people, “What is something someone can do, or a company can do to get your attention and keep you as a client for life?”

And they would tell him that, and they began to write those down. And that's how he came up with the 100 Proven Ways. He didn't set out to do 100 proven ways, but what they found out is today, there are four things people look for, these are the overarching themes. They want an individual and company that is thoughtful. In other words, they'll go the extra mile, do the extra thing, take the extra moment.

Secondly, someone that's kind, will think about things from their perspective and do things that demonstrate kindness to them as an individual.

Thirdly, someone that cares, cares enough to find out what they really want, what they really need, and what is the right, shall we say, item for them? The right haircut, the right prescription, the right legal advice, the right advisory advice, whatever, they want somebody that cares about them.

And last but not least, they want someone in a company that's empathetic, someone that shall we say, demonstrates that even though I'm saying it's unique to me, my problem, and you've heard it 100 times as a salesperson, you know it's not unique. For me, it is unique. So, I appreciate your willingness to be empathetic. So, four things, thoughtful, caring, kind, empathetic, those are the overarching things.

Industry Insights and Best Practices Based on Research from Book

Me: So, they need to be thoughtful, they need to be kind, they need to be caring, and they need to be empathetic. In your research, when you were talking to your different clients about the different ways that you can acquire and keep clients, did you find that there were some industries that were thriving with these four things that you've mentioned, based on the research and others?

Richard stated that it's really interesting Yanique mentioned that, and it's not so much industries, it's companies within that are doing well. Most industries are still in the transaction mode. Go to a restaurant, it's a transaction. If you order something online, it becomes a transaction. And as a result of that, people are looking for other options.

So, what's happened is a few companies have really jumped to the front. And he'll just give you a couple of example, in the United States; they have a company called Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A is a chicken sandwich is basically what it is. He knew the founder, his name is Truett Cathy and they did a lot of traveling together, meetings together. And he would often say him, “Richard, now remember, we got to remind the crew here that we're not in a chicken business, we're in a people business.”

So, they're closed every Sunday. So, that means if you want to put a characterize that differently, they're closed 52 days a year, that would mean they closed November 10 and re-open January 1, that's 52 days.

They have the highest revenue per store than any other food franchise in the world. And they're closed from November 10 to January 1, and they're not open 24/7.

So, the question is, why is that happening?

Yes, it's a great chicken sandwich granted, but you get a chicken sandwich pretty much anywhere.

What they really are known for is please, thank you, and my pleasure.

And people sit in long lines at their drive thru, which are two and three lanes wide because people there say please, thank you, my pleasure. That's one brilliant example of how they do it.

Give me another example, in the food industry, this company, for pets, and that company is called Chewy.

Now, how has Chewy done, this young kid had started he said, when manufacturers and sellers of food products and other products for pets, they need to realize pets are part of the family.

So, they need to take a family orientation and be kind, thoughtful, caring and empathetic with their customers about their pets.

Well, they've done that, and just a quick, he (Richard) was speaking, he speaks all over the world. He’s spoken at the Pegasus Hotel there in Jamaica many times for various conferences, and he will tell you that he was speaking at a conference in Nashville, Tennessee, he told the story of a woman who had posted on LinkedIn.

She posted that she had a standing order with Chewy, this was in November when he was speaking, and her order for the cat food had just arrived.

She posted on LinkedIn, “The cat food came, I called Chewy and said my cat has died. And I want to return the cat food. They said absolutely not; donate it to the local shelter. And we'll give you 100% credit on the bill.” The audience goes wow. And he said but that's only half the story. The other half that she wrote about was 3 days later, she got a bouquet of flowers, and a condolence card from the Customer Service Rep at Chewy.

At that instant, this woman stood up in the middle of this ballroom of about 1000 people and scream, “That was my cat.” and held up her phone. She said, “I posted that this morning. I've already got 147 likes.”

And at that moment, he just stopped and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, what does this tell us about Chewy?”

And the whole room starts chanting, “We're switching to Chewy.”

So, there's a message here. And it's the undercurrent of what's going on in business around the world. And it's not just in the US. He'll be in France again in October speaking in a large conference there; he goes to Asia a lot.

And everywhere you go, people are really interested in doing business with individuals that are kind, thoughtful, caring, and empathetic and once he realized that, and then people began to share these ideas, if you would do this, I would be a loyal customer, he just thought it'd be helpful to put that out in the marketplace for anybody, regardless the kind of business you're in. Because it makes a big difference in your life. He heard from a guy that sells hot water heaters to hotels, and he said this book changed his business completely. So, that's the difference.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Richard

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Richard shared that one particularly, there's a series, his name is Bob Burg. And he's written a book, the original book, he was a co-author of a book called The Go-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea that is international bestseller, sold a couple million copies, what a fabulous book for anybody to read. And that would be one he'd recommend.

And another one that he has co-authored with a guy named Jeff West is called Streetwise to Saleswise: Become ObjectionProofÔ and Beat the Sales Blues, it's really a great book, it just came out he would say a few months ago. And it's really a story, they write it in a story format and what he means by that is that it's like you're reading a novel, well, it is a novel. But as you're reading the novel, it's written in a way that allows you to understand various things you can do in shall we say in business to expand your influence, to make a significant impact and to really make a difference.

Now, The Go-Giver book that he wrote, he's done a series Go-Giver Leader, The Go-Giver Sell More, and those are really dynamite books. But The Go-Giver, the original book is just oh my God, what a great book and they've sold millions of copies all over the world.

And then the other one is Streetwise to Saleswise, another great book by he and a guy named Jeff West. That book has been out maybe a couple of months, but it's called Streetwise to Saleswise, and it's really written around the city of New Orleans and sales individual that went out there to shall we say, be in the sales business, it’s a fabulous read, particularly people like novels that have read really great nuggets on how to be a better salesperson.

What Richard is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Richard shared that the book is doing extraordinarily well, he’s been very grateful for that. It's been selected as the lead book for the London Book Fair and the Frankfurt Book Fair this year, which is a blessing. But what he’s most excited about is he’s getting in front of more and more audiences, he’s in the Keynote Speaker Hall of Fame, and the Customer Experience Hall of Fame, and all of that is wonderful recognition. But what is really wonderful is when he has the privilege of being on the platform, and being able to share with audiences’ ways in which they can elevate their client or customer experience, and stand apart from the competition, and that's what he’s most excited about. He’s got a lot of speaking engagements coming up this fall, and in places all over the world. And just to be a blessing to those people and to bring them some thoughts that perhaps they've never had, or to have reinforced that which is that they're doing so they really feel as though, “You know what, I'm on the right track, and we're going to continue to win more business.” So, those are the things that excites him.

Where can listeners find Richard online?

LinkedIn - Richard Weylman

Website - http://www.richardweylman.com/

Richard shared that on the website, there you can download a chapter of his book free, you can read it, you can also order the book there of course. There's also, he does a great deal of media, he guesses there's probably 25 or 30, ABC, CBS, NBC and, Fox, both TV and radio segments there, you just click on media and you can listen and watch those on various topics.

And then also under videos, you'll see a link there, you can go to learn services. And he puts up about he’s going to guess 25 little video vignettes are a couple of minutes long that you can enjoy, they're all free, just wanted to plant those in your life. You can sign up for his performance tip that's the down at the bottom of every page but every 10 days he sends out researcher tips to about 20,000 people or subscribers, so it'd be wonderful if you subscribed.

So, you want to go to www.richardweylman.com if you want him to speak at your conference, or at your upcoming meeting, whatever the case might be, there's a form there, fill it out, he responds to those. He actually gets those himself, he’d be happy to partner with you, and find a way that they can bring some additional learning to your organization, to your people so that they can elevate their business performance as well.

Me: All right. Thank you so much for sharing, Richard. We just want to extend our deepest gratitude to for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast. You shared some great insights and nuggets as it relates to some of the keys that you need to focus on in order to acquire and keep your clients for life especially based on the research that you did. And we love the examples that you gave, they were definitely relevant and something that I believe will motivate the audience to definitely go out and get a copy of your book, whether it be in soft or hard copy so they can try and elevate their own client experiences. So, thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The G0-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea by Bob Burg

• Streetwise to Saleswise: Become ObjectionProofÔ and Beat the Sales Blues by Jeff West

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
235: Unveiling the Trends from Broadridge's 6th Annual CX and Communications Consumer Insight Survey with Debbie Miglaw
24 jul· Navigating the Customer Experience
Debbie Miglaw is Head of Digital Solutioning & Business Development at Broadridge. She and her team of digital sales specialists, solutions architects and business analysts are responsible for consulting with clients to define the digital solutions that support their digital transformation and customer experience goals.

The team of experts work with clients’ business and technology stakeholders to map the solution from ideation to implementation. Debbie has extensive experience in helping clients with their print-to-digital transformations. Prior to her current role, Debbie was responsible for designing and executing the product vision and strategy of Broadridge Customer Communications omni-channel solutions.

Questions

· Now, could you start off by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Could you share with us a little bit about the results from that survey, maybe some key things that came out of that survey?

· In the customer experience space, what do you think are some trends that will continue? And maybe even some new ones that you're hoping to see evolve? Or even get more prominent?

· What's the one online resource tool website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners one or two books that you've read, could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago. But it has had a profound impact on you whether personally or professionally.

· Now, could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· What would you say as a leader is maybe two or three things that you believe is critical to kind of raise a team members competencies up, especially as it relates to their behaviors in developing leadership skills?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derail or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Debbie’s Journey

Me: Now, could you start off by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Debbie shared that she’s been here quite a while; it started believe it or not 26 years ago, within the Broadridge space. She started with the company it was considered USCS International, which was acquired by DST Systems. And in 2016, Broadridge acquired the DST output business. And as part of that, they really brought together the best of the customer communications business across all vertical markets. And along that journey, she spent the majority of her time heading up and leading the product organization to deliver solutions across print and digital services and she continue on in that in the last 3 years, really help focus on as you said in the intro the solutioning and helping their clients find the right solution to solve for their business objectives.

Key Insights from the Recent Survey: Understanding Trends and Findings

Me: Perfect. Now, one of the reasons why we were very intrigued to interview I believe, when we started this conversation, it would have been Matt Swain was about the report that was shared with me when the interview request was presented on your 6th Annual CX and Communications Consumer Insight survey. I understand the survey covers the overall consumer sentiment around CX within different industries. So, could you share with us a little bit about the results from that survey, maybe some key things that came out of that survey?

Debbie shared that they're very excited with the 2024 results that they've published out in the market. And one of the most prominent things that they found in the data is really that in the last 5 years, you could say 6, as most people know, 2020, they didn't do the survey. But over that time span, the number of consumers, the percentage that are dissatisfied with customer experience and believe companies need to improve that experience has doubled.

So, it's gone from 35%, having a sentiment that is saying needs to be better to 70%. So, it's pretty significant in terms of the fact that the expectations continue to grow, but the companies aren't necessarily achieving it at the same rate. So, that's probably the first one that she would say stands out a lot.

They also still see some things around personalization. So, when they look at the information, they find that 90% of consumers think that it's important for companies to honour their preferred communication method and a personalized communication. But only 31% think the companies are doing a good job of honouring those preferences and making it a personal experience.

And then the other third point, she would say is really around data security. That's continued to be there, she’s not sure that will ever change in her personal opinion, however, that consumers continue to crave that better experience but more than half, 54% are willing to share personal data if it's going to improve experience, so, that's really telling.

And then she'll say the last point, she would say is that they did ask this year about AI because it's definitely out there in market. And one of the things that they found is varying feedback, of course, but Gen Z out of all the groups are particularly optimistic about the use of AI and 76% are actually saying that they have used it in some fashion and 46% say it's actually improved their experience. So, it's just a little tidbit maybe not the top three kernels that she previously mentioned, but something for us to keep an eye on.

Me: Very fascinating. So, the study was done across different industries, right? Could you share with our listeners, like maybe the sample size? And what specific industries were covered when the survey was done?

Debbie shared that this was a North American survey, it's about 75% in the US and 25% in Canada, there were 4010 residents that were 18 years and older that was doing this study, it was executed in November of 2023. So, that's the high-level background.

And then they do actually ask about the types of industries that are providing the best experience and around the communications, and so, those industries vary from banking, credit card, utilities, health care, health insurance, telecommunications, investments, retirement, insurance loans, and then you could say, like, maybe an other for those that don't have answers, but they typically hit those. She thinks it's 10 particular industry standouts in their report.

Me: Perfect. So very, very good insights, especially for those of our listeners that are in the United States and Canada, we do have a lot of listeners that are outside of that region. But it's still fascinating information to keep into consideration, because probably the same execution could be done for your region if you're listening to this, and you're not in North America, you could possibly do something similar to what Broadridge did. Because the industries exist in these regions, they just probably don't have the data to support it. So, thank you so much for sharing, Debbie.

Emerging Trends in Customer Experience

Me: Now, Debbie, based on your own experience in the whole customer experience space, because you have a lot of background in that, especially working with Broadridge and your previous experience. And of course, seeing that were basically halfway through 2024. What do you think are some trends that will continue? And maybe even some new ones that you're hoping to see evolve? Or even get more prominent?

Debbie stated that that's a good question. She would say that trends that they see is really a combination of how do we accelerate that digital transformation and improve the customer experience, and also lower costs and so especially more so probably in the US than some of the other areas like Canada and such, the postal rates increased dramatically. So, top of mind for companies, is to actually reduce that paper and try to get to digital quickly. But also, how do you do that? So, paperless adoption strategies is going to continue to be one of the top initiatives and trends that we see that will not change she doesn't think anytime soon.

But she thinks really what's happening is companies out there in the industries, they're really looking to figure out how do they best do it? We sometimes talk about especially you've talked to Matt Swain in the past, and it's the carrot versus the stick often comes up. And they're seeing a mixture of trial and error in there, especially with the stick.

They're really looking at how do people actually accelerate that customer experience in a way that potentially doesn't have that heavy IT cost to do it. So, she thinks they're starting to also see a trend around the make, buy, build kind of conversation. Do you build, do buy, do you partner? And so, seeing a lot of that in order to actually accelerate that transformation.

App, Website or Tool that Debbie Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Debbie stated that that's interesting, for her, she uses so many, their company probably from a perspective of she'll say, their research uses a variety of different tools. They all use LinkedIn as one source. But more than anything, when they're looking at customer experience, they look at things like UserTesting, as a way to gauge what the consumer sentiment is against the communication experience. So, that's definitely one, especially in the customer experience, and communications and consulting area. So, they definitely rely on that. And believe it or not, they like to just go out and essentially see and experience the experiences for themselves. So, meaning they might actually go to a lot of companies that they're either talking to as prospective clients or existing clients to get a sense of competitive landscape of what the best customer experiences are. So, a lot of times that personal research is the best tool that we have.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Debbie

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Debbie stated that that's a good question and shared that she now can't remember the name of the book, unfortunately. But it was quite some time ago, there was a book that was really around innovation and the way we think, and what innovation means. And a lot of it had to do with the small startup business and it really made her think how you can actually have that startup mentality and how you apply it into a larger corporation. And she thinks that's one thing she has the privilege of working with the team that does a lot of that innovation for Broadridge in terms of the innovation lab and R & D. And so, their Chief Digital Officer, Rob Krugman spends a lot of time going out and exploring these different opportunities. And so, she thinks the creation of that particular unit within their company in the last couple of years has really helped kind of expand the opportunities that they might be able to bring to market.

What Debbie is Really Excited About Now!

Debbie stated that that’s good question. She thinks right now, their focus short term happens to be the end of their fiscal year. So, they have a very aggressive sales goals from that perspective, it's there. Ironically, when she talks about end of year, the personal side of that is it's the end of the school year going on right now so they're in the week of things like her daughter's 8th grade graduation, kind of those activities. So, it's kind of interesting that the timing of their fiscal is also the end of school year activities. And so, they're really aligned on staying focused, getting through all the activities that are there. So, very much a streamlined set of activities, both personally and professionally.

Fostering Leadership Competencies: Strategies for Elevating Team Members’ Skills and Behaviors

Me: Now, you do a lot of work as a leader, Debbie in your organization. And I imagine, as a leader, you have to kind of hone and develop other people's skills so that they can become truly functional in their role, but not necessarily from a technical perspective, but also from a development perspective, meaning they have the ability to motivate and inspire others. What would you say as a leader is maybe two or three things that you believe is critical to kind of raise a team members competencies up, especially as it relates to their behaviors in developing leadership skills?

Debbie shared that for me, a lot of it is empowering the employees to essentially try and do and a lot of times, that's what creates the growth. So, a lot of the approach that she’s taken as a leader over the years is, after we've done sort of, like you said that a technical type education and product knowledge, some of those kinds of things the company is then they do a lot of, say, ride along. So, ride along with a meeting to listen, hear how it's actually executed, especially if it's like a sales or product related meeting. And then giving the opportunity for that person to actually lead where you sort of follow on. So, you're there as a safety net to help. And she thinks that really empowers people to let them be the experts when a leader or someone that might have more experiences on the phone. Because a lot of times what happens is people naturally defer to the person with more knowledge. So, she’s found that that's a really good way to raise that confidence, and give them experience.

And again, a little bit of a safety net to get there and typically, those folks that have the aptitude, really just run with it. And before you know it, basically they're running it on their own, and they don't necessarily need you there. So, that's a great thing to see as a leader.

And she thinks the other is really kind of coaching around the communication aspect, and that really varies. She knows for like in her product role a lot of times in the past it was very technical you could say right, the accuracy what you're saying, and then trying to balance that when the right opportunity is there.

Do you need to be a little bit more optimistic and sales oriented?

Do you need to be more practical, here's what's real?

And guiding people through that process of understanding the situation that you're in, in order to convey the right message right? And it's not about accuracy of the information, it's just more about that influential speak when it's appropriate, when it's not type situation. So, those are a couple of things that really stand out for her.

Where can listeners find Debbie online?

LinkedIn – Debbie Miglaw

Website – www.broadridge.com

LinkedIn – Matt Swain

2023 CX and Communications Consumer Insights Survey

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Debbie Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Debbie shared that she does, her quote is “The best is yet to come.”

Me: Do you like to elaborate a little bit on it for our listeners?

Debbie shared that for her view, it's tough when you're in it, and a lot of times we forget to look ahead and how we're going to get past a difficult situation. And so, she thinks if we just have that little bit more optimistic view that on the other side, things will get better. And so, it's kind of funny, it comes up in other panels that she’s spoken on in person. And she always say it's also a song, so it's kind of you can have it as a motto, a song, a saying, but the best is yet to come. So, whether it is in your personal life or in work, she could say the best customer experience is yet to come, right. The best for her daughter's future is yet to come. So, kind of looking at it from that angle.

Me: Very nice. Alright. Well, Debbie, thank you so much for jumping on this podcast and sharing the great insights that you did about the report that Broadridge did, as well as in your own function and capacity in terms of leading your team and some recommended trends that you believe will continue as well as evolve in the space of customer experience. The conversation was extremely insightful, and I'm sure our listeners gleaned quite a lot of information from our conversation, so that thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
234: Transforming Customer Experience: Joel Passen on AI, Innovation, and Leadership with Joel Passen
9 jul· Navigating the Customer Experience
Joel Passen is a proven technology entrepreneur and leader with 20+ years of success creating value and driving measurable results at the intersections of sales, business development, product strategy, operations and customer experience.

Before co-founding Sturdy, a next-gen customer experience solution that helps companies improve customer satisfaction. Joel co-founded Newton Software, a B2B SaaS company headquartered in San Francisco that was acquired by Paycor (2016). Prior to that, Joel co-founded Gravity Technologies, Inc., a company that owned and operated businesses in the talent acquisition industry, including the first recruitment processing outsourcing company focused on technical talent.

Questions

· So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Could you share maybe 1 to 3 top I would say areas that you believe as an organization, especially in your industry that you believe it's important for you to focus on or it drives your success in the space of ensuring that you're delivering a great or a fantastic customer experience.

· If you want to maybe debunk maybe one of the biggest customer service myths that you see organizations still using as a driver in their business, when really and truly that shouldn't be anything that they should be guided by, what would you say that is based on your observation and experience?

· Now, Joel, can you also share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you've read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great and profound impact on you. And that can be either professional or even a personal impact.

· Now, Joel, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Could you tell us a little bit about your organization Sturdy, exactly what it does. And if they wanted to connect with you, or Sturdy, how they could find you online?

· Now, Joel, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to give our guests a chance to share with our listeners, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derail or you get off track or you get knock down and the quote kind of helps to just motivate you to get back up and to push forward and to complete whatever would have knocked you down. Do you have one those?

Highlights

Joel’s Journey

Me: So, we like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Joel shared that he appreciates this question. So, he’s always a commercial leader, meaning he’s always had responsibility not only for net new growth, but also for responsibility for customers. And where he is today, in terms of having started a company that focuses on using AI to ultimately improve the customer experience by deeper listening to customers, he thinks for him, the journey was more of like, and this may sound a little off putting to some, but he was kind of like a frustrated engineer to a certain extent. He was a frustrated commercial person in many ways. So, he thinks the desire to sort of solve a problem that he had as an operator, a commercial operator for two decades, has led him to where he is today, which is trying to solve that problem at scale.

Areas Organizations Needs to Focus On to Ensure the Delivery of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Me: So, could you share maybe 1 to 3 top I would say areas that you believe as an organization, especially in your industry that you believe it's important for you to focus on or it drives your success in the space of ensuring that you're delivering a great or a fantastic customer experience.

Joel shared that he likes everything in 3, so absolutely. But the first thing is, in many ways he thinks that removing the abstraction layers between our customers, and the level of leadership within organizations that can actually do something about the issues that we're hearing is really important. And what he means by that is, he thinks for the last 10 or 15 years, we've created not only technology driven abstraction layers like chatbots, and automated knowledge base stuff and it's all sort of addressing what he would think of as a symptom, but not necessarily is the root cause of perhaps customer frustrations in terms of customer experience.

So, an example would be like if we have to continue to build these really acute knowledge bases and what we're addressing is constant customer confusion, for example, wouldn't it make more sense to take the data that we're deriving about what's confusing the customer, take it back to our product teams or services organizations, and address the root cause. So, number one is, he thinks we've got too many abstraction layers between us and our customers.

Like number two is, the people that are responsible for customer experience, and ultimately, you're holding the bag and oftentimes, perhaps even the number for the board can only solve about 30% of the problems that we face around customer experience or challenges we face about customer experience within the organization. So, for example, going back to like a product or service, which ultimately, we deliver to an end user. If he’s the customer experience person, and he’s holding the bag for that number, whether it's some sort of arbitrary number like not arbitrary, but he guesses arbitrary, like NPS or CSAT, like something that we're being measured on, but even more importantly, a revenue number. He has to rely on his other teammates to ultimately contribute to the success of that experience. And that's a big challenge.

And he thinks the third one is kind of an expansion on that topic, which is, he thinks that we've lost sight as organizations at large that everybody's job is customer experience, providing the best customer experiences we can, whether it's the billing team that designs processes around auto renewing, and billing customers, to the product teams that are delivering product to the services teams that are delivering services, to the sales teams that are an account management teams that are being truthful and ethical and honest about what we actually can provide in terms of value.

Debunking Customer Service Myths

Me: Now, in listening to you, I also wanted to know if you could share with us, you've been in the whole customer experience space, and you're noted as a top customer experience voice on LinkedIn. If you want to maybe debunk maybe one of the biggest customer service myths that you see organizations still using as a driver in their business, when really and truly that shouldn't be anything that they should be guided by, what would you say that is based on your observation and experience?

Joel stated that it's going make me unpopular. He’s going to lose the popularity contest on this answer, and he’s going to treat this less like a cable news show, so, he’s not going to swear. But if you do follow him on LinkedIn, it's not just to be incendiary. But he really thinks health scores of customers are one of the most overused, underpowered abstraction layers that people use, he thinks they're garbage. And he’s speaking from experience, not because he has something against them, or the companies that help us build them or anything like that. It's because too many times, he’s been in executive leadership team meetings, and he takes the board slides in, and he’s got all these green lights on maybe with their top revenue accounts, for example. And he goes back to team meetings two weeks later to go back through the account reviews, and so many times he’s gone from green to gone with no leading indicators along the way that has ever given him any kind of indication that they were in trouble. So, that's his answer. And some people are in love with health scores, and they spent a lot of time building them, and quite frankly, he thinks they're full of telemetry data and opinions that just don't yield anything that he can use as an executive leader.

App, Website or Tool that Joel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Joel shared GPT 4. As an early-stage entrepreneur, he feels like he spends a lot of time sifting through data, and crafting messaging. But to make a finer point, like, for example, he has a client, they're called Hawke Media, they're one of the largest independent ad agencies in the United States. And his outbound sales team, let's say, wants to find more companies that are similar to these folks. And there are hundreds of these types of agencies in the United States, not of the same magnitude of Hawke Media, but similar. And when you go into LinkedIn Sales Navigator, and all these other Apollo or ZoomInfo. With all the metadata tags that are in the systems, it's really hard to get a filtered list, for example.

So, last night, he was watching a hockey game, and he typed a simple query into GPT 4 and said, “Give me 300 companies that look and feel like this particular company that are based in the United States and then put their name in column A of a CSV and send it to me,” and it did it and it's super accurate. And it's that kind of stuff that it's just mind blowing. Some of the things you can do with it. So, GPT 4, probably for him, can't live without it.

Me: Amazing. It's fascinating when I heard the prompt that you just gave it now. It's very important that what you put in is what you get out almost like the quality of the question you asked determines the quality of the response that you get back. So, the fact that you are so specific in terms of what you were looking for, the teams, the column that you wanted it in, the fact that you wanted it to be for a specific geographic location, and not just to the world, and the fact that it gave you back that information, so specifically, the prompt that you put into it is so critical to the output that it gives you.

Joel stated that that's a good point, not to scratch his back at all. But he would tell people start with being ultra specific, if you haven't leaned into GPT.

First of all, it's worth the 20 bucks a month for GPT 4. It's really powerful and it can produce graphs and charts and statistical things you can enter, for example, he was working on some like a VC deck the other day for a friend of his, not for his company. But he was having a trouble with like, processing the information from his total addressable market into like a graphical form. Like he's not a designer, he's a spreadsheet person.

And so, he took his spreadsheet, uploaded it to his version of GPT 4 in Azure, so it's privatized without any kind of PII in it, he paid 20 bucks a month for it. And it spit out a graphical representation that with a little bit of tweaking and the coloring could be used in a deck, it's really great. So, there's just some really crazy things you can do with it. But start with being more specific and dial it back, rather than starting with broad requests and commands, because then you're going to get frustrated.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Joel

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Joel stated that he’s going to reveal that his dad is an Industrial Psychologist, PhD in Industrial Psychology. And he's written a bunch of papers on emotional intelligence, EQ and EI. And so, he’s kind of a big fan of Dan Pink, or Daniel Pink. They are business books, so they might be a little cliche for some people. But in 2005, he wrote a book called A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future, Right Brain. It's kind of like the why right brain thinkers are the future. And he thinks there's a lot of interesting things in there that are pretty applicable today. Despite his little claim of using GPT, which might be more of a left brained example, he’s probably a stronger right brained person with communication skills, specifically, rather than somebody that's going to put their head in a spreadsheet all day. And he thinks there's some really telling things and some really interesting things that people could use, both earlier in their career and even later in their career with the Daniel Pink book.

And then he thought one of the other books that he read recently, when he thought about this was “The Billion Dollar Loser : The Epic Rise and Spectacular Fall of Adam Neumann and WeWork”, written by Reeves Wiedeman, it's the Adam Neumann story about work, he doesn't know, if Yanique have read that. It's actually kind of a fiery read, like, it's a cool book. But he thinks for him, the story was really interesting, if you're interested in business, but it also is a really stark reminder that humility is really important in business, being honest, and being humble is a marathon play, but it's also the right play, it'll get you to the finish line. So, he thought that was a good reminder for him and anyone else that is in business and thinking about their own sort of virtue.

What Joel is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Joel shared that he’s really excited about for me, he works at a company that builds applied AI products and essentially helping businesses listen to their customers more carefully, and actively for that matter.

And he thinks what he’s most excited about is sort of the evolution of AI in an ethical way. So, one of the things if you read any of the business reports from the industry analysts and in the industry consulting firms, the Beans, you read any of the stuff from the Harvard Business Review, fairly objective sources, people are really scared about using AI in their businesses specifically, let alone personally, but he’s thinking about it in a business light.

And he thinks what's starting to happen is that the hype is dying down a little bit and we're starting to see a more practical light in the application of AI where it's not so risky, and that it is truly not going to replace everybody's jobs, it's going to help us sift through larger and larger datasets together, so we can get to the root of very specific problems and solve for the root, going back to him at the top of the show when he talked about abstraction layer. So, for him, he’s really excited about that, more and more companies are adopting AI and doing so in an ethical, responsible, privacy conscious way. And the wild, wild west is starting to fade into the background as quickly as it grew, and he thinks that's exciting to him, and he knows that sounds kind of nerdy, but that for him is progress.

About Joel’s Organization Sturdy and How Can Listeners Find Joel Online

Joel shared that Sturdy is very easy to find, he'll start there, but it's sturdy.ai. And he thinks for the relevancy of your listeners and our listeners today is, their our thesis was that ultimately, the customer experiences is really the responsibility of every team. Again, he mentioned operations services, product sales, marketing, leadership, everybody's responsible for customer satisfaction and customer experience. And ultimately, that leads to everybody being in charge of revenue and retention. And what they've realized over the years as being operators of businesses is that 75% of customers expect businesses to use some sort of technology to better their experiences, like the time is now yet we have all these silos in our business.

So, what their business does, what Sturdy does is plugs into all of your data hubs where you're collecting communications from your customers, those day-to-day interactions, those really rich meaningful, those emails, the tickets, the calls transcripts, even unstructured tests like text like surveys, they take all of that information in, privatize it. And they run language models on it to help find topics and trends to help improve the customer experience. And then make agents to deliver this data to the teams and the people and the systems that need it the most. So, that's basically what they do. And they find that the outcomes are their customers are improving their NPS and CSAT scores almost immediately, because they're more actively listening to their customers. But they're also seeing pretty strong lifts in customer retention and revenue as well. So, both expansion and retention revenue.

And he’s easy to find, personally, Joel Passen as mentioned, he talks a lot about customer experience and satisfaction on LinkedIn. And you can find him on LinkedIn, he’s pretty active there. And otherwise, he just [email protected].

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Joel Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Joel shared that he’s going to disappoint people, because this isn't like super profound. But he tells his kids this too and his dad used to tell him this like, “Every day is like the first day of school, you can reinvent yourself.” The ability for humans to reinvent themselves is surreal, it's crazy. And if he’s having a bad day, or he’s down or he’s stuck, he literally thinks about the next day and say, tomorrow's my day, I can be whoever I want, I can solve whatever I want. He shared that he sounds like that guy on Saturday Night Live, Stuart Smalley. But reinventing, every day is an opportunity to reinvent yourself. And he thinks that's what keeps him going and he truly believes that even if you had a bad day or a bad interaction with your family or your team or what have you, tomorrow's a new day.

Me: Great. Thank you so much for sharing, Joel.

Thank you so much for hopping on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to customer experience and debunking the myths in customer experience that a lot of organizations are still driven by. Also talking about your organization Sturdy and just where you see artificial intelligence going and how the adaptation is being taken more in a practical role now as all the fanfare and excitement is dying down and people are really seeing how they can integrate it in a very practical and useful way not just to eliminate human interaction but to add to the value that they are using the technology to enhance the quality of the experience that the customer is having. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future by Daniel Pink

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
233: Practical Frameworks and Future Insights for Elevating Customer Experience with Alan Williams and Dave Stubberfield
25 jun· Navigating the Customer Experience
Alan Williams is the founder of SERVICEBRAND GLOBAL and advises business leaders internationally to deliver value driven service.

Dave Stubberfield is the director of Carter Consultancy and specializes in enabling cultural transformation to help businesses achieve greatness. They are the authors of Supercharging the Customer Experience: How Organizational Alignment Drives Performance.

Questions

· We always like to ask our guests if they could share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So basically, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Now, the both of you teamed up together and wrote this awesome book Supercharging the Customer Experience. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about the book, maybe two or three overarching themes that the book focuses on and who is the book geared towards?

· What are maybe two or three behaviors that you believe is critical for customer success in a business both from an employee perspective and from the leadership perspective.

· So, could you share maybe just some insight for us on what you believe is the future of AI as best as you can, because AI does cover a lot of stuff. But what do you believe is the future of AI? And how will that impact human interaction?

· So, can you also share, and each of you can give me your answer to this particular question. What's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· If you could share with me maybe a book that you read recently, or even a very long time ago, but it has still had a very great impact on you, whether from a professional capacity or even a personal development capacity.

· Now, can you also share with us what's the one thing that is going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we close off the episode, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that in times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Alan and Dave’s Journey

Me: We always like to ask our guests if they could share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So basically, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he started off in commercial hospitality management. So, he remembered being at school thinking, he wants to go to university, but he wants to do a degree that's going to help him get a job.

And he really didn't like the idea of what he at that time considered to be really boring businesses like banking, where you're sat in an office all day. And he was lucky enough to get a holiday job in a hotel, and he thought that's it, exciting, looking after people, fun.

So, that was the beginning. And then he moved somewhat later in his career into workplace management. So you might know it as facilities management, so all of the services in workplaces offices, and he referred to them those offices actually, as they're really hotels with desks instead of beds, that's the only difference. And then he set up SERVICEBRAND GLOBAL in 2005, and he’s been helping progressive leaders in organizations around the world since then, using what he learned in the hospitality sector.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that for him, he guesses similar to a degree. So, he was just about leaving school and the careers advisor said, you've got the potential to go to university, but he didn't really know what for. So, he decided against it and tried the apprenticeship route in the corporate space, which he loved, and a lot of customer facing roles. Then there was an initiative called Lean, where he became kind of a Six Sigma qualified individual. And then it just kind of spiraled into attaching customer experience to the continuous improvement framework, really. And how changes adapt in organizations. And then, 2020 set up Carter Consultancy, and he hasn't looked back since. So yeah, he loves what he does.

About Alan and Dave’s Book – Supercharging the Customer Experience and Three Overarching Themes the Book Focuses On

Me: All right, thank you so much, gentleman. Now, the both of you teamed up together and wrote this awesome book Supercharging the Customer Experience. Can you share with our listeners and either of you can answer this question, a little bit about the book, maybe two or three overarching themes that the book focuses on and who is the book geared towards?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he’s known Alan for a few years now. But it just so happens that they were interested in creating a customer experience development programme for the BQF, The British Quality Foundation. And the President kind of joined them together and said, “Look, you're both trying to achieve the same things.” So very, very quickly, during their initial meeting, they realized that they are very aligned in how they think and what they wanted to achieve. And through the development of that programme, and Alan out of the blue turns and he said to Dave, “This has got the makings of a great book. Do you want to write one?” And like a rabbit in the headlights, he just kind of froze, and then said, “Yes, let's do that.”

And so, through Alan's guidance from his previous experience of being an author, he's brought him on that journey with him and he’s really, really enjoyed it. And the foundation to the book really stemmed from the training, the development programme they put together, which is really all about putting CX into context. They believe there's a lot of content out there. He’s going to leave Alan to drop the question in a second, but they believe there's a lot of content out there. But they believe that the actual application of customer experience doesn't happen as frequently as it should, which led us to the question, Alan?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that's right. When they were thinking about the book, they were thinking, well, how is this book going to be any different to all of the others out there on the topic of customer experience? Because don't know if you've checked, but there's just like so many books on the topic. And they just found themselves with this question, which is, “With all the content on the topic that's out there, why is great customer experience so rare?” It doesn't make sense if there's all that resource out there to guide people.

And that was what Dave's just touched on there that the problem, and the challenge is that so much of the time people are focused on content, and knowledge, rather than the practical application of that knowledge on a day in day out basis. And that's why the great customer experience is so rare. And in the book, they provide a framework that helps you whatever sector you're in, wherever you are in the world, whatever the size of your organization provides you with a framework that can help to guide you create your own customer experience strategy that suits your own particular individual circumstances.

Me: All right, so let's use a use example, a use case, I like the fact that you gentleman said that you want to focus on the practical because you are very correct. There are many, many books out there on CX and EX. And you read the content, and it's focused on knowledge, the definitions, the theory, but how does that really work with an organization, with people, with their behaviour, we getting them motivated with having them intrinsically applying that in every single interaction regardless of the channel that they're serving the customer on. So, you can choose a business, I will leave it up to you in terms of the use case, just give us an example of based on the framework that you have in the book, how does this really apply to a business?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he’s not even going to choose a particular business. He thinks that sometimes when you do that, you're kind of dragged into generalization. So, he’s just going to tell you a story. And it was a business that he was working in and they focused really hard on everybody that was in the organization understanding that they were part of delivering a great customer service and their job was to make their customers and clients feel important, that was the reason that they were all there.

And he remembered on reception, they were expecting a guy attending a very important meeting. And so obviously, they knew in advance that he was arriving, and they have pre-prepared a name badge, they also aimed to greet people before they introduce themselves in this particular environment. And so that happened, the receptionist greeted the gentleman by name, but they had not expected one thing, and that is that he brought with him a small terrier dog. Now, the receptionist actually said to him, complimented him on the dog, and then said, “And now Sir, if you could just lift him up in front of the camera.” and produce a name badge for the dog. And the guy went into the meeting room and announced to the people from the client organization, “That is the best welcome I've ever had anywhere in the world.” And then the meeting was a great success, down to that receptionist. So, the reason he loves that story is because it really emphasizes the importance of people understanding the big why they're there, rather than getting consumed and distracted with the small tasks that they might have to do in order to satisfy them.

Behaviours that are Critical for Customer Success in a Business from an Employee Perspective and from the Leadership Perspective

Me: Now, based on your research, and your experience, both of you in the CX space, if you were to choose maybe two or three behaviours that you believe is critical for customer success in a business, and I'm not just talking from the employee perspective, but also from the leadership perspective, like what are the three key behaviours that will more than likely lead to a culture where people have that customer centric mindset, regardless of the type of customer, how complex the problem or issue might be, but they're always driven by that because of those core behaviours. Would you be able to identify what those if you were to pick three, what those would be?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he can start with one for sure. And the one that leaps out with him is Empathy. And that runs from a kind of a customer facing team into the customer, but like you said, it's the leadership into to the rest of the teams and the organization. He thinks having that empathetic understanding of what people might be trying to do, or what they're going through, is so powerful.

And we're stepping into the realms of emotional intelligence here. And to the point that Alan's just made in that in that story, which is fantastic. People have to buy into that, right. So, they have to buy into that culture of trying to achieve and deliver that experience, not once but every single time. And he thinks that starts with a lot of empathy. He knows some leaders that are not very empathetic, shall we say, and don't understand why they can't achieve the results they want to achieve, not only in the business, but in the customer experience space as well. So, he would lead with empathy being one of the most powerful ones because it unlocks so much. Alan, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that at all?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he'll go with number two, though, which he thinks is about positivity. So, when a customer asks you for something, the answer is yes. And it might not be exactly what they were expecting or had asked for. But how often do you hear, no, can't do that. And that's really not a good start to a conversation. So, he'd follow empathy with Positivity.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave stated that he would go number three is probably Communication. And that he guesses all ties everything up together nicely. He thinks sometimes, again, starting at the top with leadership, they might send a message once, whether it's via email, or it could be in person, it could be a presentation, and some people think that they can just deliver that message once and everyone gets it and understand it, it needs to be reinforced, it needs to become part of the embedded as part of the DNA of the organization. And that message needs to be repeated so it's understood and lived every single day. And he thinks having a great deal of empathy, and positivity, it just needs to be reinforced through communication, he personally believes.

Alan Williams: Alan asked can they give you just one extra one as a bit of added value. So, he'd go with Obsessive Attention to Detail. And this is kind of every person, every day, every minute, because consistency is what makes the great businesses set apart from those that are good some of the time. And that's because everybody in the organization knows the fine detail of what's required, and is then committed to delivering that every single time.

Me: All right, so Empathy, Positivity, Vommunication and Obsessive Attention to detail. Okay, thank you so much, gentlemen.

Insight on the Future of AI and How it Will Impact Human Interaction

Me: Now, I liked the fact that most of what you talked about focuses on people, focuses on behaviour, focuses on relationships, practical things that we can see, things that we do every day. I found, and I'm sure you've seen it as well, that in the last, I would say, maybe two or three years or even before but definitely in the last two or three years, there has been a lot of emergence in the space of technology with artificial intelligence. And I find that organizations sometimes may not necessarily be integrating it or using it in the best way possible to ensure that it's not replacing humans, but more so helping humans that can really help the overall experience.

And I'll give you an example. Over the weekend, I had a friend that has a mobile modem and we were having some issues adding some data to it and we called our local telecommunication company, reached out to them through their website. Actually no, we did it through their app that was on the phone, but the app has a Bot at the top and the bots name was Ruby. But Ruby can't answer any questions, Ruby doesn't remember what you told her before. And so, you tell Ruby, I'd like to speak with a representative, Ruby starts a conversation again, “Please provide me with your name and account number. Please tell me exactly what your query is about.” And I told Ruby that before and I felt like I was going in circles, it was just crazy. So, could you share maybe just some insight for us on what you believe is the future of AI as best as you can, because AI does cover a lot of stuff. But what do you believe is the future of AI? And how will that impact human interaction?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that it's really interesting. And they cover a lot of this in the book. And honestly, you could spend hours upon hours doing research. And he kind of immersed himself into this. You're spot on, AI is kind of forefront of technology at the minute, everyone seems to be dipping into it. You've also got augmented reality that people are looking at as well and they are fantastic things, and it's just incredible what some of these things can do. The problem that organizations have today is they see something shiny, something sparkly and go, right, we need that. And they try and integrate it and it's just kind of a lift and shift, kind of slot it into a place, and it fits in just or they've squeezed things around, and they go perfect. We can take our AI integration box off, we've done that.

But like you've just said there, there's not been any kind of sort of thinking or thought process around how we actually integrate that to the all of the other services and ways of communication that we have as an organization, that omni channel element hasn't been considered, we just see AI as a way potentially to do something with generative text, for example. And we go yep, okay, we can we can get that in, we can do that there, and boom, it's done. It's thinking about the entire process.

And he thinks another element to that is, let's say one organization in a certain industry does something that's quite revolutionary. Other companies in the same industry or even outside the industry might try and replicate that and they haven't considered how they operate as an organization, the value they deliver to their customers, and if it actually works. He thinks a lot of people feel like they might miss the boat if they don't sort of get on board with the technology bus, because it's just constantly changing. So, there's a lot of risk when it comes to technology, you need to do your research, your homework and what fits for the business.

And for him, it's thinking about it from a people point of view, technology's forefront of the minute AI, you name it, there's lots it can do. But it needs to work for people. And that's the thing, really, he thinks sometimes isn't considered. So, that would be his thought. Alan, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that at all.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he thinks that the issue is that people consider technology to be an alternative solution, whereas in fact, it should just be a support to people. So, when you've got predictability and high volume, then sure, he thinks technology can be a massive help in that sort of situation. But where you've got unpredictability, and perhaps volume that is up and down, then it's much less helpful. And it might be that a human being could deal with that much, much better. So, the big thing, though, is this thing about technology being a tool, rather than the be all and end all and he liken it to a scalpel, a scalpel in the hands of a really experienced surgeon can save people's lives. But in the hands of somebody who doesn't know what they're doing can be really dangerous. And it's the same with tech and customer experience.

App, Website or Tool that Alan and Dave Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Their Businesses

When asked about an online resource that they can’t live without in their business:

Dave Stubberfield: Dave stated what a question. He’s going to be totally contradictory to what he just said, he going to go ChatGPT. So, he uses that as a bit of a sounding board, really. So, in his organization, it's just him. So, sometimes when he has a bit of an idea, he thinks, “Oh, okay, maybe I should post it on social media or I should do this and have a bit of an idea.” He will often ask Alan because they are very alike, but sometimes he will just put a bit of a question into ChatGPT and asked for maybe what's relevant or how he should do a certain thing. And knowing that it's not always 100% accurate, he uses that as kind of as a gauge really to see if he’s on the right track.

It's funny, he will put something into ChatGPT, for example. Let's say he wanted to do a LinkedIn post this week and he might say, “Give me five myths about customer experience that we can debunk.” And he might find one of them, he goes, “Well, that's not a myth at all. That's the complete truth.” So, he might swing it in a way that he thinks is his own personal view and opinion. And he uses that as kind of a something to generate a bit of a conversation with himself rather than just talking to the brick wall. So for him, he quite often uses ChatGPT, he would say he’s using it daily, which is, it's mad really how it's become so prominent in people's lives.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he’s going to add to his CV that Dave asked him before ChatGPT that’d go down really well. His, is his Outlook Calendar. He’s a bit too reliant on this. Basically, if it's not on the calendar, he’s not there. And occasionally, he was telling somebody just the other day how he was just about to go into a lunch meeting and he got a message from somebody saying, “Really looking forward to seeing you for lunch today.” And he had to have a very quick lunch meeting and then get to the other one and not tell the person. But his calendar is his.

Me: So, Calendar and ChatGPT. Excellent.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Alan and Dave

Me: Now, I usually ask the question, what book or books have had the biggest impact on you? I noticed in your book, which I love about how the layout of the book was done, that at the end of each chapter, you have a little box that says, “Want to know more” with resources in the form of articles and books that the reader can access if they want to gain additional information. I think that's brilliant. But I will still ask it. So, if you could share with me maybe a book that you read recently, or even a very long time ago, but it has still had a very great impact on you, whether from a professional capacity or even a personal development capacity.

Alan Williams: When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Alan shared that his is a long time ago, actually. So, The Balanced Scorecard: Translating Strategy into Action by Robert S. Kaplan and David P. Norton. So, basically, this is about making sure that your business is balanced and looking after all of the different stakeholder groups, rather than being just focused on generating profit. And over the years, that kind of sentiment he thinks has grown into triple quadruple bottom line ESG, all of the terms that are given to it, but basically a very, very similar message in that you're managing your business holistically, rather than just to generate profits. So, that's his.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he’s got a few that springs to mind. And the one he’s going to talk about most prominently is the one he’s listened to recently is the One Minute Manager by Kenneth H. Blanchard. This was a recommendation to him, he’s heard it and seen the sites all around, but he’s never actually taken the time to listen to it. So, that for him was really, really interesting because it talks about trying to do things in a minute, setting goals that people can read in a minute. Having reviews whether it's positive or negative in a minute, so you can redirect people or praise people. And he thinks a lot of us get bogged down in just day to day life, that everything becomes much more intense than it needs to be. So, that One Minute Manager for him, it was talking specifically about managing a team in an organization. But he thinks you can apply it to absolutely anything. So, that's the one he’s listened to most recently that has been phenomenal and eye opening for me.

One that he would like to call out that he’s previously listened to is The Prosperous Coach: Increase Income and Impact for You and Your Clients by Steve Chandler. So, coaching is a part of what he does and t that was something that really helped him and kind of confirmed to him and validate that he can do what he’s doing, which was amazing, because he had a lot of doubt at the time when he started if he’s a massive suffer of the imposter syndrome. So, that was really good for him personally.

And the other one he was considering? It was, Who Moved My Cheese?: An Amazing Way To Deal With Change In Your Work And In Your Life by Spencer Johnson, which is just he thinks it's a staple, if you haven't read or listened to that, then go and listen to that. That's phenomenal.

What Alan and Dave are Really Excited About Now!

Alan Williams: When asked about something that they are excited about Alan shared that this is going to be boring to some people, because the CX in context development programme, he’s thrilled about this, because they've started to deliver to clients, and the feedback has just been fantastic. And people are just saying, this is a real eye opener, because CX cannot just be treated in isolation, it is inextricably connected to other parts of the business. And this framework helps them to do that in a really simple to understand way and a very practical way. When he gets that sort of feedback, it makes him feel that it's been worth putting together what they've put together because it's good to be able to help so many people out there.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that for him, he could quite easily say the same thing. But he’s going to be different. So, he would say in the past 18 months, he’s been developing an online tool that's called Nova. And Nova is a way and means of teams, organizations to measure how well they are implementing continuous improvement in their business, or in their team or in their organization. And that is something he’s done for a long time and he used to do it by an Excel spreadsheet. And talking to a friend of his, he said, “Dave, why on earth are you using a spreadsheet in this day and age?” And he kind of sat back and thought, “Okay, I should practice what I preach here and change what I do.” And it's led to this tool, which he personally believes is cutting edge.

So, basically, it's an assessment that each team would do in an organization, it will give them a score, it will give them actions to do, it will give industry insights as well, based on the information that's been provided, just so that it can help the team progress. That then creates an aggregated score up to the leadership, and that can be viewed across the leadership peers and the group. So, if you've got an entire organization, you've got a continuous improvement score, essentially, for the entire organization with industry insights that help drive the improvement of that organization and with Alan's help, they're going to look at introducing customer experience to that later in the year.

They've also got plans to introduce change management as well, as well as vision values, employee engagement, they see this as a potential game changer tool that can disrupt organizations for the better. So, a lot of positive to come from that. And that's not long been launched really, the start of this year and they've seen some really, really interesting returns on investment as well. So, fingers crossed that’s one for the future.

Me: That sounds amazing, Dave. Is that available to anyone in the public? Or it's still in beta?

Dave shared that it's available to absolutely everyone and anyone that might be a little bit unsure, a little bit reluctant to get involved or have a look, there's a free business health check at the very beginning that you can take, an initial assessment that sort of points you in the right direction, ask some leading questions to get you thinking, “Are you doing the right thing?” And at the end of it, it will tell you how you're performing based on that information and their suggestions moving forward. So, there's a bit of a freebie at the front as well.

Me: Now, my next question would be where can our listeners find that resource online?

Dave shared that they can find that at www.thinknova.uk

Where Can We Find Alan and Dave Online

Alan Williams - Company website – www.servicebrand.global.com

LinkedIn – Alan Williams

Dave Stubberfield - LinkedIn – Dave Stubberfield

Dave’s company website – www.carter-consultancy.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Alan and Dave Uses

Me: Now, before we close off the episode, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that in times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Alan Williams: When asked about a quote or saying that they tent to revert to, Alan shared that this relates to the book, actually. So, he created this the end of last year (2023) and that is, “Content without context is toast.”

Me: I saw that in the book, I thought it was kind of cute.

So, can you tell our listeners a little bit about how that quote brings you back on track?

Alan shared that it originated really from culture eats strategy for breakfast, it's like that kind of ring and tone to it. And he was just thinking about how so much, especially with social media, it's all about pumping stuff out there. But he thinks it really helps you to recollect yourself if you remember that your particular situation is unique. And you just need to focus on that. Don't get worried with all of the possibilities of all of the content, just think about what situation you're in right now and that will help you deal with it.

Me: All right. Thank you so much, Alan. Dave, do you have one of those quotes?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he does, his is a bit cheesy, people might hear and go, oh, no. But his one is, “Teamwork makes the dream work.” And he thinks, for him, to put that into context, again, he’s spoken that he’s solo in the business. But he thinks realizing that collaboration is king, really. So, let's take the book as an example. There would have been days, he’s sure, that he would have been not really 100%, and not firing on all cylinders. But he knew that he would have to present something to Alan later in that day to say, “This is what I've done or what I've produced.” So, that would be that factor.

But there would also be helping Alan out. If Alan said, Ok, we've got 10 actions to do, but I'm in meetings for the rest of the week, he would go leave that with me. I'll pick that up. he'll take the strain. And he thinks that's part of that teamwork. And he thinks, again, that's part of why they work so well, because they do have the ability to understand when someone hasn't got the time or the space. The other person just seems to pick it up from somewhere. He doesn't understand how or why, it's a bit of a dark art, but it seems to be working well for them. But that for him is the one, knowing that collaborating with people is often going to be so more advantageous to absolutely everyone. That's the one for him that pulls him out of that pit sometimes where he might not be feeling great.

Me: All right, thank you so much. So, Alan's quote, “Content without context is toast.” And Dave's quote is, “Teamwork makes the dream work.” Now, both quotes are phenomenal. And just to kind of piggyback on what Dave said just now, I say it all the time in customer service trainings, no man is an island, and the reason why an organization has more than one person working in it is we all have to work together. Everyone's role is important. You gentlemen wrote this book and I'm sure that it required a lot of sweat, tears, hard work, focus, just a lot of energy and engagement that you both had to put into it. And it wouldn't be the success that it is today if it is that you didn't put that effort into it. So, I fully, fully, fully endorse both the quotes that you've given to us.

And just want to remind our listeners that customer experience is a journey, it's not something you're going to get to overnight or in an hour. It's not something that you're going to just get from one book. And it's something that we continually work to improve every single day that we get the opportunity to work on it. So, thank you so much for sharing your great insights about your book, about all the different things that you're doing in your organizations, with your own clients. It was really a great interview and I hope you had as much fun as I did.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Balanced Scorecard: Translating Strategy into Action by Robert S. Kaplan and David P. Norton

• The One Minute Manager by Kenneth H. Blanchard

• The Prosperous Coach: Increase Income and Impact for You and Your Clients by Steve Chandler

• Who Moved My Cheese?: An Amazing Way To Deal With Change In Your Work And Life by Spencer Johnson

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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232: Embracing Technology and Human Connection in Customer Experience with Vaishali Dialani
18 jun· Navigating the Customer Experience
Vaishali Dialani is a multi-award-winning Customer Experience professional in the Middle East, has been recognized as a CXPA Emerging Leader, a finalist for CX Leader of the Year 2023, and has been ranked among the top CXMStars worldwide in both 2023 and 2024. She is a firm believer in the power of knowledge sharing to foster growth and awareness within the CX community.

With over eight years of experience as a data-savvy experienced designer, research specialists, and strategic change-maker, Vaishali passionately advocates for the integration of emotions and efficiency through customer experience research, product insights and communication. She currently serves as a Senior CX Strategist at Konabos, a consulting firm specializing in digital transformation.

Her commitment to knowledge sharing is evident through her involvement in podcasts, blogs, guest lectures, speaking engagements, and training programs. Additionally, she conducts leadership training workshops for professionals with low literacy levels, making a positive impact through collaborative efforts across diverse spheres.

Questions

· Now, we always like to start off by giving our guests an opportunity as I mentioned before to share a little bit about your journey from where you are were to where you are today.

· Can you share with us just a little bit about your culture, how customer experience is. If you were to give it a score, maybe on a scale of one to 10 with 10 being the best, what score would you give it and just any insights that you think would be beneficial to our listeners.

· What would you say have been as a leader in the different organizations that you've worked in, maybe one or two things that you believe has made or contributed to your success in driving CX design and CX delivery?

·How have employees across different industries adapted to the integration of technologies, specifically in artificial intelligence, like ChatGPT, to enhance customer service experiences? What future trends do you predict for technology's role in CX, and do you believe human interaction will remain vital in this space?

· Can you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Can you also share with us what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· What would you say are maybe two or three emerging trends that you believe will continue? Or will emerge over the next couple of months?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, we always like to ask our guests before we wrap our episodes up, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adverted adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, a quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Vaishali’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to start off by giving our guests an opportunity as I mentioned before to share a little bit about your journey from where you were to where you are today.

Vaishali shared that she started her career back in 2015, right after she graduated from Heriot-Watt University in Dubai, and just like any other graduate, she was like, “I don't know what I want to do with my life. I think I’ll start with marketing.”

Right quickly as she dived into marketing in the advertising world, it was chaotic, busy, a great learning curve, she learned what she liked. But most importantly, she learned what she didn't like. And that's where her analytical journey began from, she understood that it's important to know and work on your skills that you like. She paved her way to get her MBA done, and learn more about research and analytics, and then dived into a CRM officer where she picked up different aspects of what experience means, how you're helping small businesses grow, what is innovation and research, it’s a very cool experience.

And then she moved back to Dubai where she joined her FinTech company as the head of customer engagement. Now, this was a whole new world for her while she already knew marketing and analytics, but now running campaigns and media was super interesting. And just like in any other startup, you have to wear many other hats was very interesting, because normally she would play so many different roles, she had different opportunities where you would design experiences for low income migrant workers in the UAE.

It was almost like her postgraduate degree or a PhD, she would say, at no money, where she learned a lot of things. And that's where her curiosity for CX began, when she was designing experiences and working with the ideal. One thing paved to another and then she dived into CX, and she’s been in the industry for almost four to five years now.

Me: All right, that is a wonderful journey.

Vaishali’s Views on Customer Experience in Her Culture

Me: Now, throughout your journey, Vaishali, could you share with our listeners, I know you mentioned the different industries that you've worked in, but seeing that you've been in the CX space for a while, and our show is about navigating the customer experience, maybe you could share with our listeners a little bit about what your views are on customer experience. And I know you are in a different part of the world. And I know culture and behaviour varies depending on where you are. Can you share with us just a little bit about your culture, how customer experience is. If you were to give it a score, maybe on a scale of one to 10 with 10 being the best, what score would you give it and just any insights that you think would be beneficial to our listeners.

Vaishali shared that for the listeners, she comes from the Middle East from they say the light of gold, which is Dubai, and it's very interesting because it feels like you're always served in a platter. So, over the last few years, she’s been travelling a lot, and especially to the West and the East port. And she thinks there's major cultural shock that she almost have is why somebody not serving her enough. Being in Dubai hospitality is huge; services at its peak, people come for the luxury and lifestyle in Dubai. And so, she’s never had even if she goes to a restaurant, if she’s in Dubai, if she asks anyone to please can you pack this, I need a take away, they'd be like, “Yeah, sure madam”, and all of that. But when she comes to the West, they give her a box, and she’s like, “Oh, so am I supposed to pack myself?”

So many different experiences that are such culturally different, yet you're working on designing those right kind of experiences is very interesting. Being in the space that she worked across education, FinTech, healthcare, manufacturing, nonprofit organizations, and one thing that she finds, despite no matter where you are, in which part of the world across which culture you have been raised, is that we all are humans, and we all want to feel heard. And we want to all feel listened and feel the emotion that we're feeling whether it's with another person or a brand. So, despite many, many differences, being from the Middle East, one common thing is what kind of human experiences are we really designing?

Effective Leadership Strategies for Driving Customer Experience Design and Delivery

Me: What would you say have been as a leader in the different organizations that you've worked in, maybe one or two things that you believe has made or contributed to your success in driving CX design and CX delivery?

Vaishali stated that’s a difficult one. But she thinks something that's really helped her, and she truly believes in this is the power of love languages, and how you can mold that and use that in designing experiences, especially customer experiences, whether it is quality time and actually speaking to your customers, making them feel heard, and understanding where they come from, to just simple words of affirmations. And this can be digital affirmations, she’s not saying everything has to be in person, it's more about how you make someone feel like, “oh, this person hears me and understands me.” Do simple acts of service you do for them digitally, again, reward them that make them feel loyal to you.

So, when it comes to leadership, every different project is so different from one another despite being in the CX space, because they are spread across different verticals, from governance, to analytics to design, she’s had the experience of learning that we need to understand what kind of emotions we want to create, and then create those journeys. So, for her, that's been one of the key things is, drive and understand what emotion you want to create.

AI Integration in Customer Service; Employee Adaptation, Future Trends, and the Human Touch

Me: Now, a big part of CX is technology, right? Technology is here to help us and support us in delivering a more seamless and a less friction kind of experience with customers. In your part of the world, how have you seen your employees across different industries and verticals, as you had mentioned, adapting to the technologies, specifically in the area of artificial intelligence, there is ChatGPT and different things that organizations may integrate to enhance the service experience with their customers and cut down the more route type of activities that are very mundane and monotonous, they're investing in a technology to kind of reduce. How have you seen the adoption of that take place? And if you were to be a fortune teller, if you were to look into the future, where do you see this going? And do you believe human interaction will still play a very integral role in CX?

Vaishali stated, wow, what a question. It's very interesting. So, to answer the first part of the question, which is adoption levels. She thinks adoption levels are at its peak right now. We have no option but to keep up because a lot of the CX experiences and designs that they choose to design for their customers is technology driven. You can have the best of the best designs on Figma or Canva, or Miro, but to really bring them to life, you need the right tools in place. And to be able to do that, you will be able to understand which technology or business is actually using at the moment, what kind of architecture do they have in their back end systems, and what is really possible.

And in the ever evolving space, also, she thinks, today, all kinds of businesses, especially in the tech industry, they are coming up with niche tools and technologies across diverse industries specific to different features that allow them to give the best of the best services to their end users. But most importantly, they are very open to saying we'll integrate with another tool, whether it is in the healthcare industry, and you're looking at billing and medical insurance, they're creating their own tools to integrating with personalization tools to understanding when a patient needs to have their next checkup and reminding the patient about it to actually having analytical tool. There's so much that is happening in today's space and the adoption is at its absolute peak to keep up with the industry at the moment. That's the first part of the question.

And then the second part of the question is, there's so much that you can do with today's technology, no matter what you do human intervention can never be impacted directly she feels, they will always coexist in her space, she doesn't think it's going to be one or the other and completely replaceable. They will always need human beings because human beings evolve. And technology is made by humans.

Me: Very true. Alright. I love that.

App, Website or Tool that Vaishali Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Vaishali shared that she’s a very tech person, she loves using her app, she has apps for almost everything. But at work, she uses a lot of Canva; she’s creative as a person. So, whether it's the whiteboard or whether it's just designing something that she needs to just throw it out. She loves using Canva.

Me: Amazing. I like when I hear guests talk about using Canva. Recently, I did a presentation skills workshop for a client and they wanted to basically teach the team how to use Canva. And I remember, it was so fascinating, especially for persons who have never been exposed to the platform before, when they looked at the user interface of Canva versus a Microsoft PowerPoint, Canva is just like, it's like the Apple of design. Like in terms of how easy it is, you just drag and drop it, in PowerPoint, you take three steps, in Canva, you take one. And I just I find it so amazing, it really has brought design to the average person; even if you weren't creative Canva would find some way to stimulate your creativity.

Vaishali agreed, and more than anything, even like the guided templates too, they have everything, you can just create a design system in place to be able to do anything with it. Previously, developers used to use draw.io a lot to create the map and the technology flows. And like, guys no, we need to use Canva make it more colourful. And it's so easy to use.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Vaishali

When asked about books that have had a great impact. Vaishali shared that she just finished two books recently, but they are more spiritual, but she thinks one of the books that she’s still continuing to read, and she’s amazed by it is Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck. That the book is taking her longer to complete in all honesty is because you really need to retrospect and think, is this the way I think.

And it's just the way she would want to think like from growth mindset or fixed mindset and how our childhood, the way we just appreciate it really impacts on the way we work and our personality, or our character. So, there's a lot of retrospective to do. And she thinks she'll have to read the book 2, 3 times. But for now, this has been the biggest impact on the way she’s started evolving and thinking, so she'd highly recommend this book.

What Vaishali is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something she’s excited about, Vaishali stated that she'll give two things. So, the first one is she’s very excited because she’s travelling on a personal level. She’s travelling to Vancouver tonight to for her brother's graduation. And it's been a journey for their family. So, they're very, very excited for his graduation.

And professionally, what she’s very excited about is at the moment, she’s working on three different projects across manufacturing, healthcare, and education. And the best part about all of it is, is that all of them are across different verticals of CX, and that really shows the power of a) customer experience, but b) also how vast our growing industry is. And we all have some stuff to do and make an impact across different verticals of CX, so she feels super blessed.

Me: Alright, well, congratulations to you, brother and his graduation. That's awesome.

Emerging Trends Shaping the Near Future

Me: Now, can you tell our listeners, if you were to just think about maybe two or three trends that you believe will continue to grow and emerge as we wrap up on the second and embark on the third quarter of 2024, what would you say those are just based on working with clients, in your own business, listening to podcasts, being on podcasts, writing blogs, interfacing with other CX experts across different industries. What would you say are maybe two or three emerging trends that you believe will continue? Or will emerge over the next couple of months?

Vaishali stated, great question. And we all have been talking about this, start of the year, we were like, what’s 2024 going to hold for CX and is AI going to replace but she thinks now conversations have shifted, and everyone agrees, and a lot of the conversations she’s hearing about is, we are going to coexist together. So, that trend is kind of going to continue and only emerge, people are not going to lose their jobs because of AI, but they're just going to be supported better and to design better experience. So, that's definitely one.

The second one is what she sees as a shift, based on discussing with clients and having these daily one on one conversations, being the centre front of the industry is that there's a grey area that was first there was digital experience and customer experience, but she sees that becoming a grey area now to becoming actually digital customer experience, and people finding out and learning more about it. And that's a very interesting space, because it makes room for everyone to grow together and learn and share experiences, which she thinks is phenomenal. So, there are no more silos within even the experience design space anymore.

And the third one she would say is, she sees extremely authenticating orthodox industries, especially such as manufacturing, or education, which had a certain way of doing certain things digitally, are now ready to evolve and embark on a transformation journey. Because they think it's extremely important to kind of keep up to the industry and the world and the customer needs. And those are massive projects that they're working on internally. So, she thinks it's very, very interesting to see that shift in the industry right now.

Me: Alright, exciting times ahead.

Where Can We Find Vaishali Online

LinkedIn – Vaishali Dialani

X – Vaishali Dialani

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Vaishali Uses

Me: Now, we always like to ask our guests before we wrap our episodes up, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adverted adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, a quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert, Vaishali shared that she does. And it's one of her favourite quotes that she’s actually tattooed and it's called, “Fly with full faith.” So, it's always do your hard work and have faith in whatever you do. Because most of the times, it feels like we're doing so much and we still not able to get to the next place, we're stuck in a circle or a rod. And it's important to have faith and while you have faith, always, always do your hard work.

Me: All right, thank you so very much. So, Vaishali, I just wanted to extend our deepest gratitude to you again, for taking time out of your busy schedule, and hopping on this podcast with us and sharing all these great insights, especially as it relates to your culture and what's happening over there. Because the world is very small, even though we are in different continents or different places, human behaviour is still pretty much the same I believe throughout, we are through and through emotional beings. And I liked the fact that that came out in your message in terms of what we should be focused on in CX and ensuring that we're connecting with people on an emotional level, and what kind of feelings do we want them to have after they've interacted with us. So, I thought it was great that you brought that across in a message. So, thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
231: Data-Driven Sales Excellence: Insights from 'Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling' with Robert Scarperi
21 mei· Navigating the Customer Experience
Robert Scarperi, Bob has been a leader in professional services, SaaS, financial services, ad tech mar tech, and management consulting for 32 years. His company, Revenue Vision Partners is the industry's leading data-driven revenue growth consulting firm.

Questions

· Could you share with our listeners, just a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

· You wrote a book called Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling with three other gentlemen. So, could you take a minute to kind of just go through maybe three overarching themes that the book focuses on? And just how do you believe this can really help an organization to deliver a great customer experience?

· Now, I'd like for you to share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has had a great impact on your development and even your continued growth.

· Now, Bob, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, Bob, before we wrap up, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share. I'm not sure if you have one of these but a quote that you would tend to revert to if for any reason you are faced with some form of adversity, or challenge, but that quote will help to get you refocused, get you back on track, and just help you if for any reason you got the real or you got off track.

Highlights

Bob’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our listeners an opportunity to hear from the guest, in their own words, a little bit about your journey. And it has been quite a long journey, 32 years is a good amount of time to have under your belt in all of these wonderful areas. So, could you share with our listeners, just a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Bob shared that right around the time he was finishing college, he had a really strong pull to get into sales, he was extremely lucky to have had a best friend's father was the top sales guy at Automatic Data Processing, ADP, which is sort of known to be one of the best and strongest sales driven cultures in the Fortune 100.

And right from the very beginning, all of their structure, rigor, process, intensity really meshed with his personality and his sort of competitive nature. And so, he was lucky enough to have some early success, he’s very, very grateful for how much faith they had in him from an early age, giving him opportunities to run sales teams and move and get to experience new geographies and have really great experiences in such a phenomenally well-run company.

And then without going into too much detail, of course, his journey took him through a number of different industries, early days of ad tech, he worked for a long time as an equity sales and trading person at AllianceBernstein. He was lucky enough also to have some leadership positions, run sales teams internationally.

And then toward the last 10 years of his career, he had three Chief Revenue Officer roles in high growth technology companies where he really started to embrace being a leader who prided himself on installing a systematic data driven approach.

And toward the end of that decade, he decided he really wanted to do that as a consultant for a portfolio of companies so that he could be really working through various kind of company challenges in different industries with private equity firms as their partner. So, that's what brought him to where he is now.

About Bob’s Book – Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling and Three Overarching Themes That Can Help Organizations Enhance Customer Experience

Me: Now, Bob, you wrote a book called Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling: Leveraging insights, intelligence and the power of AI to deliver efficient, durable revenue growth with three other gentlemen, Mark Petruzzi, Ray Rike and Paul Melchiorre. So, could you take a minute to kind of just go through maybe three overarching themes that the book focuses on? And just how do you believe this can really help an organization to deliver a great customer experience? And I'd love for you to maybe segment it for us, because selling covers so many different areas. If you're selling to a business versus if you're selling to a customer….an individual, so maybe you could take one of those areas and kind of just break it down for us. And just give examples of what you wrote about in the book can really help teams that are in sales because sales is critical, it's a lifeline of any business. But how can the sales team really drive a quality customer experience that can drive to a high customer retention rate, because at the end of the day, that's really what all businesses are aiming for, as you're going to be able to keep your customers for life.

Bob shared that regarding who it's written for, it would really be for anyone selling to or trying to persuade a group of decision makers, so, usually an organization where a number of people contribute to a decision that is primarily in B2B sales. But if you find yourself in a position where you are trying to convince a town council to vote your way on a specific issue that's been a problem for the community or anything else where there are a group of people who need to kind of come together to make a decision, their book will help you.

And the way that it helps you is it lays out an approach that is not only proven by some of the most successful people in B2B sales, but it's also modern, utilizing the most high quality available B2B data. And they also talk about systems support, and AI as a tool that can help the modern salesperson navigate this very complex selling environment with multiple decisions in a tough time in the market, the macro environment is currently as complex as it's ever been. And being successful in sales at the moment is also as challenging and complex as it's ever been.

Me: So, I kind of wanted you also to maybe just go into, I would say, as I said, three overarching themes that the book focuses on. So, you mentioned AI and it's a very hot topic right across, I think, across the world, really, since it was introduced, especially since it's so accessible to everyone currently. But what does that really mean when you are selling to someone? Because at the end of the day, you're still dealing with human beings, so, what is the data really going to tell you? Or how is it going to help you to navigate that conversation? Because there has to be some human interaction, right? So, I kind of want you to walk us through that process.

Bob shared that the book talks about two different types of AI and it's really exciting because he doesn't think there is a sales book currently that, again, not only combines improving elements with AI and data approaches, but the two types of AI are generative AI, those would be systems like Chat GPT, who can help you create content in order to be compelling in a sales process.

And predictive AI, technologies like and he'll use an example, Clari, which is a tool that helps sales teams understand which of their open sales opportunities have the highest probability of closing, based on a myriad of factors. So, they do get into really solid detail and they also have contributors in the book who are experts in various topics and tell stories about how they've used these tools successfully.

Me: So, that's excellent, very good explanation on the generative and predictive AI. Because I do believe that we throw toward around so much in different industries, especially in the customer experience industry, many people believe that artificial intelligence is going to replace human beings and we're all going to be obsolete and not worth any value anymore. But I'm not there yet. And I live in Kingston, Jamaica, where we use technology here a lot, but we are not going to get to that point anytime soon, definitely not in my lifetime where you're not going to need people because we are still a society that is heavily dependent on people interaction. For example, in our banks here, and I compare it to the United States all the time. The banks are still full, 50….40 people standing in the banks. I travelled to the US quite often and I go to different financial institutions, and they are empty, there's nobody physically standing in there, there are no lines lined up outside or people lined up inside. So, just in terms of the culture and the behaviour of people just don't believe that we're going to eliminate the people component in customer experience, because people still like to deal with people, right?

Bob agreed yes, absolutely. And it's funny because he does feel like and the way that they lay it out in the book, AI can put you in a position to have more and better live human interactions with the right audience, if used properly. It doesn't replace humans; it sets humans up to be the best version of themselves and optimize their approach every day.

Me: I love it. So, it's really supposed to help us to interact better, to get to decisions faster, to understand people's behaviours quicker, to find solutions that are more need based, because a lot of times salespeople sell you stuff, they're driven by the quotas that they need to meet, they're driven by the pressures that their organizations put on them. But when you match value to the experience that the person is having and are they really getting the right solution, a lot of times down the road when there is like let's say a survey that's being done, or some form of focus group, especially if they're losing customers over a period of time, you realize that it wasn't even the right solution that was given to the client, or it wasn't being managed the proper way. And I guess, if they had the right data from day one, and it was being provided in the right way, they wouldn't have lost the customer in the first place.

Bob stated yes, he couldn't agree more.

The third theme of the book is utilizing simple data science in order to ensure that your sales approach is driven by your Ideal Customer Profile (IDP). And he'll just briefly state that as a sales leader, he had gotten frustrated by knowing that focusing on the ideal customer profile was the right thing and then defining that and making that approach data driven was impossible. It was a very distant and vague concept. But he believes that they own the very best definition now of what the ideal customer profile is and how to take that definition and identify score and rank specific prospects and clients that are the best match to that ideal customer profile and create an entire commercial approach with that as the foundation.

Me: All right, and what is the definition that you have identified in the book as your ideal customer profile?

Bob shared that it's basically utilizing firmographic traits to know what industry, what sub sector, what size of the company, how much it's growing, what web scraping tells you about a company, when you can build a model that identifies those common traits in your best customers, and utilize expert panels to ensure that the model has picked up on the right signals, that is the best way to create an ideal customer profile, and again, score and rank accounts. That's quite technical, but it's all in the book.

Me: Yes, agreed. And our listeners would have tapped into this episode, and they'd like to put their hands on your book, where can they find it?

Bob shared that the book, it's available in all the major outlets, but he will tell you, he’s a huge fan of Amazon and is readily available on Amazon in softcover, hardcover, and they'll have an audio version available within three weeks of today (May 09. 2024).

Me: Oh, okay, that was actually going to be my next question. Do you have it available on Audible?

And you better get used to this voice because it's 80% of the narration is done by him (Bob).

App, Website or Tool that Bob Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Bob shared ZoomInfo. ZoomInfo provides a backbone to a lot of the data work that they do at Revenue Vision Partners. And when they were in the marketplace to procure data assets, they did a thorough evaluation, they were convinced at the time and four plus years later, he continued to be convinced that ZoomInfo has the best B2B data available in the market.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Bob

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Bob shared that he would say that far and away, Strategic Selling: The Unique Sales System Proven Successful by America’s Best Companies by Robert B. Miller and Stephen Heiman is the number one book that has contributed to the way that he has approached sales since the early 90s. He feels it lays out the most logical and powerful and consistent approach or methodology for B2B sales.

What they tried to do with the new book is take methodologies like Strategic Selling, SPIN Selling, The Challenger Sale, and modernize the approach again with Data and Diagnosis and AI and build upon those methodologies.

What Bob is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Bob shared that in their firm right now, they're doing one of these ideal customer profile-based data projects for a very large, diversified industrial company who services about a dozen different end markets. They're a multi-billion-dollar organization, they've run a pilot in one of their key divisions and it's been a phenomenally successful data model.

And he’s convinced that their are hundreds of salespeople are going to utilize their time better, they're going to sell bigger and better fit accounts, they're going to be more gratified in their jobs, the company's going to gain market share in a more consistent and repeatable way.

And it's thrilling to do that, because this was the promise that they built their company on, and this couldn't be a better group of humans to work with who he just wants to see them succeed for all the right reasons. So, he’s so excited about this journey, they're just far enough along where there's proof that it's working and there's so much ahead of them in terms of their ability to empower them to succeed.

Me: All right, I'm excited too, just hearing all of the great opportunities that lie ahead.

Bob shared that in his tennis game, he feels like his backhand is really ready for summer.

Me: Do you play competitively, or do you just play for fun?

Bob stated that he plays intermediate competitively. So, he can be pretty terrible. He has a couple of great shots and feel really good about himself, but it's a blast.

Where Can We Find Bob Online

LinkedIn – Bob Scarperi

Company LinkedIn – Revenue Vision Partners

Instagram – @bobbyscarp

Website - www.revenuevisionpartners.com

Facebook – Bob Scarperi

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Bob Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Bob shared that it's quite a long one, so, he’s not going to quote the whole thing, but unless he takes up the rest of the time, but it is, The Man in the Arena, quote by Teddy Roosevelt.

And starting a business in one's middle age with lots of financial obligations, including three kids, two step-kids, etc…etc…has been a really bold decision and quite terrifying at times. And every time he wonders if he’s done the right thing, he grounds himself in that amazing speech and always feel like he comes back to believing that he was born to do something bold and that living through terrifying entrepreneurial moments are part of that and the victories that one is lucky enough to experience when they make that brave and bold decision are that much sweeter than then any other career related victories in his life. Of course, his highest highs have to do with his kids, but that whole man in the arena concept keeps him going every day.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Me: So, we will have that full quote in the Show Notes of our episode, the Teddy Roosevelt quote, along with what you shared just now as it relates to kind of getting you back refocused on why you do what you do.

Bob shared that and if you saw the Tom Brady roast on Netflix, Matt Damon does a great job of narrating the entire thing.

Me: All right, Bob, thank you so much for jumping on our podcast today and sharing all these great insights as it relates to Diagnostic Selling and Data Driven Selling, as well as Artificial Intelligence and the ICP, it's all great information. I've started consuming a part of the content of the book, but I just believe I’d get so much more from the audible. So, I'm actually going to wait until it's released in the next three weeks to continue, I just believe I get so much more listening to it rather than reading it. But I would recommend for anyone that is a listener to our podcast to tap into this awesome resource that Bob and his team have so graciously given to us in the world, it's a great resource. And I believe that if we continue to try to find ways to add value to people's lives, create opportunities that you're really providing the solutions that your customers want, that will allow them to be your customer for life, through the techniques that you use to ensure that you are selling the right way, making the decisions the right way, your customer experience will take care of itself. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on X @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling: Leveraging insights, intelligence and the power of AI to deliver efficient, durable revenue growth by Bob Scarperi

• Strategic Selling: The Unique Sales System Proven Successful by America’s Best Companies by Robert B. Miller and Stephen Heiman

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
230: Strategies for Customer Success and Retention with Rachel Stanley
14 mei· Navigating the Customer Experience
Rachel Stanley came to Banzai in 2019 with over 10 years of SaaS onboarding, training, implementation, consulting, e-Learning, customer success, adoption and support experience. When Rachel joined Banzai, Customer Success was the only customer-facing job function.

Since then, Rachel has added Onboarding, Support and Customer Marketing successfully creating a Customer Experience organization that has driven best-in-industry customer satisfaction and grown Banzai’s Net Retention Rate (NRR) significantly. Rachel is passionate about building high functioning teams that consistently hit their objectives. Previously, Rachel has held roles at Amazon and ACS Technologies. Rachel lives in the Seattle area.

Questions

· Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about Banzai and what you guys do?

· Banzai focus is really on events and your target is really your marketers are your customers. What would you say are some of your customers main pain points? How is it that you're able to overcome some of those and successfully have a high retention rate because ideally, that's what all organizations aim for, to keep the customers that they have for a lifetime.

· Now, seeing that you've been in the Customer Success space for quite some time now, what are some of the emerging trends that you are seeing in the Customer Success space that you believe if that trend continues in a positive way will help to enhance customer experience?

· Now, Rachel, can you also share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, and maybe even your development and just your continued growth?

· Could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that is going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Now, our listeners would have tapped into this episode, and they're quite intrigued with you, Rachel and they'd like to know how they can reach out to you online where can they find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests if you have a quote or a saying maybe something that you revert to or use if during times of adversity or challenge, this quote kind of helps to just get you back on track or get you back refocused. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Rachel’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Rachel shared that beginning of her career, she was actually an office manager for many years and an Executive Assistant. So, her customer base was very internal. And then she took the opportunity at ACS Technologies to apply for, she was an Executive Assistant office manager and applied for a onboarding, like specialist or an onboarding role. And so, that was her introduction into customer facing. And from there, it just kind of took off. She went from onboarding to an actual, like implementation consultants, than she ended up leading that team. And so, they mainly focus on training and implementation professional services.

And then coming into Banzai, was really when she wanted to break into customer success, it was still kind of new back then, it's really developed over the years. But at Banzai in the last five years, she’s just grown so much, thankfully, there's so many resources like this podcast out there that really explore all the areas of customer experience. So, at Banzai, like Yanique just said, it basically grew from customer success, and then added onboarding and adoption and support and customer marketing has been the latest addition.

About Rachel’s Company – Banzai

Me: Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about Banzai and what you guys do?

Rachel shared that Banzai is a Mar Tech company. So, they're all about providing tools that give marketers data. And so, right now, their products are mostly event focused, they have a webinar platform, and then a platform/service that drives registrations to field marketing events. But they are this year is really exciting and they're looking at a bunch of different acquisitions that they’re mainly focused on how to provide data to marketers. So, they have visions of becoming a platform that has a tonne of tools for marketers to become a Banzai customer. So, for her this year, cross sell is a big focus.

Strategies for Enhancing Customer Retention in Event Marketing

Me: So, Banzai focus is really on events, as you said, and your target is really your marketers are your customers. What would you say are some of your customers main pain points? How is it that you're able to overcome some of those and as I mentioned when I was reading your bio, successfully have a high retention rate because ideally, that's what all organizations aim for, to keep the customers that they have for a lifetime.

Rachel shared that she'll specifically talk about their webinar platform customers, because that's the bulk of their business at the moment. So, the problem they often come to them, she would say most have already at least started a webinar programme, some customers are just starting but their main segment or ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) is mid-market, so most of them have done a webinar programme before but it's been clunky, they feel like their other platform wasn't engaging, and they didn't know how to prove the ROI of their webinar platform.

And so, what they really focus on is, thankfully, their platform is super easy, super clean, and all of that. So, they obviously want to make sure they use all of the features, all of the engaging features to help their audience engage more, but then they also point out all the data they have on the back end that helps them prove the ROI. And so, since their customers are marketers, they're obviously, most of their objectives are providing MQLs (Marketing Qualified Lead) and things like that.

And so, things like their focus rate, like being able to see who was the most engaged in a webinar really can provide like a lead score for them, and then push people over to sales and provide MQLs. And so, that's really where she thinks instead of just kind of letting them just get on the webinar platform and just run a webinar, they're really focused on how to improve the webinar, how to make it more engaging, and how to deliver the data that helps them move those prospects to the next stage of the opportunity.

Emerging Trends to Enhance Customer Success

Now, seeing that you've been in the Customer Success space for quite some time now, what are some of the emerging trends that you are seeing in the Customer Success space that you believe if that trend continues in a positive way will help to enhance customer’s experience…..generally speaking?

Rachel shared that that's a great question. She thinks internally, like the trend that we're all kind of looked at and focusing on is AI. And so, how can we utilize AI? And she thinks all of us, especially people that work in customer experience, we tend to all really care about people, like we have a lot of empathy, there's definitely like a persona.

And so, she thinks there's some concern in the AI space that like we don't want to be replaced by robots, or probably any function is worried about that. And so, she’s trying to learn as much as she can about AI and explore different tools and how it's being implemented. And what she thinks is, we really need to lean into how AI can help us be more efficient, but not replace us, like how can AI free up more of our time to focus on our customers and make sure they're getting the most value out of our product or service?

And so, what she’s seeing right now, like with support is, AI can help find an answer quicker, or kind of write a draft of a response to a customer, instead of just like, automatically sending a response to a customer like we've all had the experience of calling in, and they're like asking you to say and it's a robot, like asking you to say what your problem is, and you end up kind of screaming at the phone asking to talk to a representative. That's not the experience she wants for their customers.

And so, what they're leaning into is more like internal efficiencies and she thinks what that allows, it's good for morale, too, because freeing up time allows people to lean into their sweet spots and what they're passionate about, and what she’s seeing with CSM (Customer Service Management) specifically is allowing them to spend more time on things like a QBR or just checking in on a customer or joining one of their webinars, things like that. And so, she thinks that's a positive that if we can keep freeing up more time, then that's a trend she wants to continue to lean into.

App, Website or Tool that Rachel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without, Rachel shared that Intercom for them, that's the tool they use for their Support Chat. It also allows them to do like in app pop ups, it could be anything from like a banner announcement to a survey, or announcing a feature release, things like that. It's what allows them to provide fast 24/7 support. For us a webinar, they have customers around the world, and they believe 24/7 support is essential because if something's wrong, it's super stressful in the moment, like, imagine if this podcast was live and there's a technical difficulty. So, Intercom is what allows them to do that and what allows their customer marketing to advertise things, but it's also like how they do like in app onboarding like a product tour when new customers initially joined. So, it’s an essential tool for them.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Rachel

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Rachel shared that over like the Christmas and New Year's break, she read two books that have really kind of framed a theme for her this year. And it's Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown and The Lazy Genius Way: Embrace What Matters, Ditch What Doesn’t, and Get Stuff Done by Kendra Adachi. And both of them aren't necessarily like business books. So, she likes books like that, that you can apply to your personal life and to work. And they kind of have a similar theme and actually though, she read The Lazy Genius Way first, and in that book, or maybe it's her podcast, but she recommended Essentialism.

She said, she reads it reads it once a year and basically Essentialism talks all about doing less but better. And The Lazy Genius Way, her tagline is “being a genius about the things that matter, and lazy about the things that don't.”

And so, going into this year with her team, she’s just really been talking about like an essentialist mindset. And it goes back to even her original customer facing days of training where she talked a lot about first you focus on what's essential, then what's important, then what's helpful, like when training the customer, and she thinks they can apply that with their own workload, like her team's job is never done, there's always something they could be doing more and better and they get a lot thrown at them. And so, to help with overwhelm and burnout, then focus on okay, but what's essential, like what's essential today, what's essential this quarter for them to hit their objectives and their goals? And it's really been helpful for her personally, and for every member of her team.

What Rachel is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Rachel shared that at the risk of repeating herself, it really is essentialism, even in her personal life, she’s trying to just shed doubt, like even parenting, it's kind of like a minimalist in a way but a little bit different. So, she’s trying to simplify her life and really focus on the things that are going to make the biggest difference like personally, she’s trying to exercise more and eat less sugar like things like that that are essential.

And then at work, she’s really been focused on like picking the three things that she has to do, like the most essential things in a day and trying to let go of creating a to do list that's 20 things long and feeling like she failed when she didn't do it at the end of the day.

Me: That’s a good one.

She shared that which is definitely her old way of operating and so ending the day feeling successful is way better.

Me: I agree, especially if psychologically you've conditioned your mind that if the list is smaller and definitely you’ve done in chunks and more manageable, then it makes it more realistic and provides you with a better transition from day to day, because as you said, you don't feel like you have failed and you feel successful going into the next day.

Where Can We Find Rachel Online

LinkedIn – Rachel Stanley

Website – www.banzai.io

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Rachel Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Rachel shared that she’s going to stick to kind of the theme of the last few questions and because she really does go back to the two quotes of the books she mentioned. Because her biggest weakness is more being a perfectionist and an overachiever. So, “Do less but better.” and basically, “Be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't.” It's okay to be lazy.

Me: I love it. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for taking time and coming on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights, sharing about your company, Banzai and also about customer success, and some of the trends as it relates to AI that you believe should continue definitely to free up people's time. As well as what you're working on as you're going forward. So, we just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown

• The Lazy Genius Way: Embrace What Matters, Ditch What Doesn’t, and Get Stuff Done by Kendra Adachi

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229: Embracing Change and Mastering Entrepreneurship: Insights from Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine with Jason Feifer
23 apr· Navigating the Customer Experience
Jason Feifer is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, a nonstop optimism machine, and a widely recognized authority on business and how people navigate change. He is the author of the best-selling book Build For Tomorrow, a startup advisor, and host of the podcast Help Wanted and Problem Solvers. LinkedIn name him a “Top Voice in Entrepreneurship”.

Jason has also had decades-long career in national media, which included working as an editor at Men’s Health, Fast Company, Maxim, and Boston magazine, and writing about business and technology for the Washington Post, Slate, New York Magazine, and others.

Questions
We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, and how they got from wherever they were to where they are today. So, could you share that with us? So, Build For Tomorrow, a book that focuses on startup advisory, and I just kind of want you to take a little time to share with our listeners, what the book is about? Who is the book targeted towards? And how do you believe the book has been helping others in their different careers and businesses? Now the book focuses on four phases of this change. The first is the panic, then you have the adaptation and the new normal and then that phase where we're never going back. So, could you just elaborate just a little bit, maybe give an example of each just to kind of cement that information across to our listeners. What are three-character traits that you found has to really be intrinsic to organizations or persons who lead organizations to help them really be customer centric? Now, could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business? Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people. Where can listeners find you online? Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?
Highlights

Jason’s Journey

Me: We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, and how they got from where they were to where they are today. So, could you share that with us?

Jason shared that in brief, he started in media, he was a community newspaper reporter fresh out of college. Eventually, he got into magazines, he moved to New York City to work for Men's Health magazine, pretty different from Entrepreneur, and bounced around to a lot of different national magazines until he got to Entrepreneur.

And at first, he really treated Entrepreneur like a media project. His job was to do what he had done everywhere else, which was to be an editor and to tell great stories and to think about the media brand.

But over time, two things happen. Number one is that people because of the title, Editor in Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, they started to treat him as an authority in entrepreneurship, which frankly, he was uncomfortable with for a while because his background was in media, until he came to realize that so much of business is not about the fundamentals of business, but it's really about the fundamentals of human thinking, and logic and reinvention, and the kinds of things that he had put himself through in his own career.

He thinks that we all have to recognize what our incredible skill is, and it's going to be different for everybody. His belief is that every human being has the same fundamental skill, and that is pattern recognition.

The difference among us is that some of us are better at recognizing different kinds of patterns, right. And so, his pattern is how people think and how people tell stories and how people understand the world. And he came to realize that by spending an immense amount of time with entrepreneurs, he was starting to absorb their way of thinking, starting to act like that, he’s starting to launch his own businesses, starting to advise startups, and that he could lean into telling their stories, processing their insights in a way that would be incredibly useful for other entrepreneurs. And that has led him to the career that he has now.

About Jason’s Book – Build For Tomorrow

Me: So, I was lucky enough to actually read your article in Entrepreneur Magazine. I think it was the February issue that I purchased when I was travelling, how failure can feel good, and it really intrigued me. So, I reached out to you on LinkedIn, and graciously, you accepted my request and here we are today having you on our podcast. So, amazing. So, in your bio, it was also mentioned that you recently published a book that would have been September of 2022. So, Build For Tomorrow, a book that focuses on startup advisory, and I just kind of want you to take a little time to share with our listeners, what the book is about? Who is the book targeted towards? And how do you believe the book has been helping others in their different careers and businesses?

Jason shared that Build For Tomorrow is a book for anybody who's going through change, particularly going through any kind of career change though.

He’s heard from a lot of readers that it applied well to personal changes as well. And the book is rooted in this philosophy that he’s developed, which is that when he meets the most successful leaders and entrepreneurs, he finds that they have all developed a unique personal relationship with change, they understand who they are in times of change, they understand how change can impact them in a positive way. And that unique relationship with change enables them to grow and build in ways that others can't.

And he wanted to write a book that distilled the experiences and the wisdom of people who have successfully navigated change and help others with a roadmap for how to do it too. That is just simply the most important thing that any entrepreneur can do is to be adaptable, to recognize that the things that are changing around them are great opportunities, and then to understand how to systematically approach that and that's the book that he wrote. And he’s had a really tremendous feedback from it, it's really gratifying.

Navigating Change – Understanding the Four Phases

Me: Awesome! Now the book focuses on four phases of this change. The first is the panic, then you have the adaptation and the new normal and then that phase where we're never going back. So, could you just elaborate just a little bit, maybe give an example of each just to kind of cement that information across to our listeners.

Jason shared that he found that everybody goes through change in the same four phases listed them out panic, adaptation, new normal, wouldn't go back. Let's focus on panic and wouldn’t go back. Panic, you know when you're panicked, you know when you're feeling that, you maybe are feeling that right now as he’s talking because something massive has changed in your work, because you feel like your industry is shifting underneath you. Who knows. And the reason why we panic is because decades of psychological research have confirmed what's called loss aversion theory. Loss Aversion theory is the recognition that our human brains are programmed to protect against loss more than to seek gain.

So, when something changes in our lives and or in our work, the first thing that we do is we identify the things that we're comfortable and familiar with and then we start to think about how we're going to lose them, we're acquainting change with loss. And then we start to extrapolate it, well, because I've lost this thing, I'm going to lose that thing because I lost that thing, then I’m going to lose that other thing. Now, everything starts to feel like it's disappearing, now, we are panicking. But you can't do that forever, you can't panic forever, it's too exhausting.

Eventually, you start to look around and say, well, what do I have to work with. We get to adaptation. We start to build a new normal, a new foundation, something comfortable and familiar, again, a new normal. And then we get to wouldn't go back, that moment where we say I have something so new and valuable that I wouldn't want to go back to a time before I had it.

And he can give examples of that. But the pattern that he’s seeing is that people are often forced into or sometimes are proactively making changes that force them to reconsider the fundamentals of the work that they do. And what they discover is that the way in which they were working before or the thing that they were doing, or the way that they were delivering value to their clients or their customers, that that wasn't the only way to do it. They thought that it was…..but it wasn't.

And in fact, it was a lesser version of a better way to do it that had never been explored because oftentimes people don't feel incentivized to scrap something that's working, or that sort of working, and take the risk of figuring out how to build something better.

But when change comes along, when you are disrupted, when you're forced to react to the things that are shifting around you, you start to ask yourself some really fundamental questions about whether or not the things that you thought wouldn't work maybe are worth trying. And some of those are going to become the best opportunities for you going forward.

Me: All right, so change. I remember over the years, even going to university and starting my working life and starting a business, I've always heard the phrase that change is constant. And I haven't engaged in the book, I did download it on Audible, and I've started listening to it but I haven't completed it as yet. But what your four phases reminded me of was that change is constant. So, regardless of a pandemic emerging across the world, or kids coming into the play or getting new employees, like change is constant, we're constantly going through change in different aspects of our lives, so your phases definitely reminded me of that.

Jason stated that that's something that you can operationalize.

So, the idea that change is constant is a familiar one for many people. But he thinks often you hear that and you don't know what to do with it. Okay, change is constant, so what?

Here's the starting point. What would happen if you made decisions today based on the knowledge that the thing that you're working on now will have to change tomorrow?

What decisions would you make when you know that?

It starts to shift the way in which you work, you start to for example, do a thing that he calls change before you must where you start to make decisions that are hard today because they will benefit you when things change tomorrow.

A story that he’d love to tell, he won't tell it in full here, because it takes a while but divided in the book is of a brewer, a guy who started a Beer Brewery in Delaware named Sam, his company's called Dogfish. And he had a runaway hit product in a beer called 60-minute IPA, people love this beer, it was on track to become 75% to 80% of all sales of his company, and he artificially limited supply.

So, this thing was on track to become 75% to 80% of all sales at Dogfish, he capped that at 50% and that meant that people were furious at him, restaurants couldn't get his beer stocked, bars couldn't get his beer stock. And he says, “Sam, why would you do that? Why would you limit sales of your best-selling product?” And the answer that he gave me was because tastes change. And he knew that if he allowed this one beer to be a runaway hit so that everybody who ever went into a bar or a restaurant encountered just this beer of his, just this one 60-minute IPA. Well, then at some point IPAs, India Pale Ale, popular bitter style appeals is going to become less popular than it was at that one moment.

And if people's impressions of his company were shaped by one beer by an IPA, then he was going to be known as a hot IPA brand. And that's fine until tastes change, they will change at which point he won't be a hot IPA brand, he will be an old brand, he'll be a dead brand. And so, he wanted to do something that was painful today for the benefit of tomorrow, anticipating that change will come.

And the payoff for the story is amazing, which is that Sam limited sales of his best-selling beer when people would order it, he would try to get them to buy or stock or serve other styles of beer that he made. And as a result, he shaped perception of his company Dogfish not as a hot IPA brand, but as an innovative brand. And you know what you can do with an innovative brand is you can sell it for $300 Million Dollars, which is exactly what he did.

That's not something you could have done if he had just thought about how to profit today, how to only succeed based on what was working today. That's what it means to build the reality of constant change into the decisions that you make today, know that they will require change tomorrow. So, how can you anticipate that and be proactive about it.

Me: Brilliant. I love that story, Jason Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing.

Essential Character Traits for a Leader

Me: Now, Jason, as Editor of Entrepreneur Magazine, I'm sure that you interface with a lot of CEOs and a lot of business leaders across different industries across the world. And so, I wanted based on your expert opinion and your exposure to persons of this nature, what do you believe are maybe three, it's a kind of a generic question. But I like to hear from the subject matter experts, three let's say character traits that you found has to really be intrinsic to organizations or persons who lead organizations to help them really be customer centric, because we're all about navigating the customer experience. And the reality is, if you don't have the right people doing the things that your customers want and creating value, you're not going to have a successful business. And if your customers don't feel like they're getting value, and they choose to do business with your competition or not do business with you at all, over time you will not have a successful business. So, it's twofold and you want that person who can navigate the personalities and navigate as you said, the change and the many different things that will come forth, what would you say are three-character traits that you think someone like that would need?

Jason shared that the first thing that comes to mind was a conversation that he had with this guy Matt, who at the time was the president of Reebok, Reebok the athletic wear company. And he told him (Jason) and this was the first time he'd heard this phrase then he started hearing it everywhere, which was customer obsession.

He said, “We're really obsessed, we're completely customer obsessed at Reebok and we want to understand them, and we don't want to understand their needs.” And he’s heard that from a lot of people, but he had never heard the next thing that he told me, which was this metaphor that he uses, he says, “Look, we are in a moment in business where quality is assumed.”

Where if you let's say, wanted to start a scissor company making scissors, you could not advertise yourself as the sharpest scissors. Because every scissors is the sharpest scissors right? It's easy enough now to manufacture scissors that every scissors is the sharpest scissors.

So, if you want to be successful selling scissors, you can't lean on quality alone. Quality has to be table stakes, quality is what people take for granted, it's what they expect. The next place that you need to go is who exactly are you serving?

And how do you relate to them?

How do you tell a story that makes them proud to use your scissors, that makes them feel like when they use their scissors, they're exploring a version of themselves.

That's what it means to be customer obsessed is to understand the way in which your customers thinks to the degree to which you can tell your story in a way that relates directly to them.

Now, he’s not telling you something that you don't know based on serving customers, but that scissors metaphor really stuck with him because he thinks a lot of people, their starting point is, well, because I make the best….. But if you take that away from yourself, and you say, “Being the best at whatever is not enough, because quality by itself doesn't sell, then what else am I doing here?”

He has a friend and he’ll make this kind of point number two. Her name is Rochelle DeVos. And she is a Consumer Insights Research Specialist and is brilliant and understanding consumer psychology and has taught him a lot but the framework that she shared with him and again has really stuck with him the most is so much so that he actually has it on his desktop and he’s looking at it right now to read from Rochelle's thing.

So, she says, “Look, if you want to understand how to relate to customers, then you need to fill out the following sentence. “When (context) I want solution so that (benefit) from the perspective of the consumer.” So, give you an example that she uses from a compression sock company, a company that makes kind of tight socks for people who have foot pain.

So, she says alright, when context I want solutions so that benefit. When context, when my feet hurt from standing all day, it's the context in which there's a need for a solution. I want a solution. I want to feel comfortable while still looking cute.

Her example is a company that makes compression socks for women. So, that's something that they are concerned about.

So, that benefit, so that I can do my job, be present for my family, enjoy my life while not standing out because of my foot pain.

What's so important about understanding this when context I want solutions so that benefit is that most entrepreneurs get stuck at solution.

They talk about the solution that they have, I've made compression socks, I've made compression socks for when your feet hurt.

But the real conversion, the real connection to the audience comes at the benefit. It comes at being able to articulate the value that your customer is going to get from using your solution.

Customers don't care about solutions, nobody wakes up in the morning and they're like, I want compression socks. What they think is I want to do my job and be present for my family and enjoy my life. That's what they want. So, how do you understand the benefits that they want enough that you can have a conversation with them that is benefit oriented, because that is where you win.

And Rochelle suggests the way to do this is, is to be constantly in touch with and survey your consumer so that you understand how they think and how they talk and the language that they use. And he finds that perspective to be incredibly powerful.

So, if we're making a list here so that you know number one he thinks is to be customer obsessed to the point where you recognize the quality itself is not going to connect to your customer.

Point number two is to be benefit oriented, to understand your consumer at a level that is deep enough that they will, that they can articulate the benefit of that consumer is seeking.

And if he had to come up with a third one, qualities of leaders who are customer centric.

He’d say that there is a level of inefficiency that leaders are willing to tolerate, to learn from their customers.

A conversation that always stuck with me is a woman who had started, he can't remember the name of the company, but it was a paint company, she makes like, really cool paint colors, and it had been quite successful. And the company has grown, it's actually been acquired, she's still running it.

She has a large team, she still is in her brand's Instagram DM’S every day, corresponding with customers, if somebody DM’S that brand on Instagram, the CEO responds, and that is deeply inefficient.

But it has helped her stay in touch with her consumer in a way that she feels she would lose if she retracted from that and she just focused on all the operations of the business.

She wants to be in touch in a way that is inefficient. She has a tolerance for inefficiency, because that is the thing that is ultimately enabling her to understand her customers’ needs today and where those shifts are tomorrow.

Me: Wow, that's amazing, a CEO that's in the DM’S. That's brilliant.

App, Website or Tool that Jason Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that can’t live without in his business, Jason shared that these days, he has been absolutely loving Fathom. So, you can get at www.fathom.video and Fathom is a AI note taking tool.

He has it in all of his calls and meetings now. And it just does a great job of contextually summarizing what was said, provides a transcript, it's not a perfect transcript, but it's close enough so that you can go back and find what somebody said, and then it's very searchable.

So, he found that to be an excellent way of passively collecting all the information that is being shared and discussed so that he has now a kind of catalogue of it and an easy way to go back and find it. He strongly suggests just having something like this running in the background of all your meetings now. So, again, it's just www.fathom.video is the company's website.

What Jason is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s excited about, Jason shared that he’s been working on a newsletter for the last year, it's called One Thing Better. And the tagline that he has for it is, “One way each week. One way to be more successful and satisfied at work and build a career or company that you love.”

And each week is him sharing a strategy. Usually it's a story that articulates it, and then an exercise that people can use to think more adaptively, to be more open minded, to find opportunities in places you're not looking, to just feel better about work.

His wife refers to this newsletter as work therapy. And he’s been just incredibly gratified by the response that he’s getting to this newsletter, it pretty quickly grew to 50,000 subscribers.

And he just gets these emails from people telling him that they print out his emails, and they keep them on their desk to read regularly, or they forward it to their friends who are struggling with something.

And he’s so excited to have created something that can have that kind of personal connection. If you want to check it out, it's www.onethingbetter.email, that's the web address. And he just thinks there's a lot of potential in exploring the newsletter space and in creating things that are both connecting with people on a business but personal level as well. That's a space he really like to live in. So, he’s been excited to be building that and to see where it goes.

Me: So, we'll definitely have the link to the newsletter in the show notes of this episode. And I imagine once they subscribe, they can have access to previous newsletters that were published, correct?

Yes, as soon as you visit the website, you will see the back catalogue.

Where Can We Find Jason Online

Newsletter – www.onethingbetter.email

LinkedIn – Jason Feifer

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jason Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Jason shared that he’s not big on motivational quotes, he doesn't get driven that way. But he’s had a lot of people say really impressive things to him that stick with him.

One of them came from Malcolm Gladwell, who is a best-selling author and podcaster, and so on. And they were talking about work and so on and he had said this line to him which he loved, which was, “Self-conceptions are powerfully limiting.”

The idea being that if you have too narrow vision of yourself, then you will limit all the opportunities that could come your way, that don't fit that narrow definition of self. So, self-conceptions are powerfully limiting and that is something he thinks about a lot as he pursues things that takes him out of his earlier conceptions of himself.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing. All right, Jason, we will just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us today, talking about your best-selling book Build For Tomorrow, and the four phases that are connected to that book, also giving us three of the strong character traits that you believe will help leaders to really build an organization that will not just provide value for their customers, but also for their employees so it can be a win-win on both ends. And the insights, the knowledge, the experiences that you’ve shared with us today, the stories, they were just extremely insightful. And I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links
Build For Tomorrow by Jason Feifer
The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
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228: Decoding the 5 C’s of Effective Communication: Insights from a Relational Intelligence Expert with Steve Cockram
16 apr· Navigating the Customer Experience
Steve Cockram is an inspirational communicator, serial entrepreneur, confidant to elite leaders around the world and co-creator of the world's premier “Leadership Toolkit”.

He has co-authored The 100X Leader, 5 Voices and The 5 Gears with his business partner, Jeremie Kubicek. Their new book, The Communication Code, released in November of 2023.

Questions

· So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Your book, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?

· Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?

· What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?

· When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. How can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.

· Now, Steve, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your own business?

· Now, could you share with our listeners as well, Steve, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Steve, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Steve’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Steve shared what an interesting question that is, nobody ever in their right mind have done all the things he’s done in the last 30 years. So, he'll give the highlights. He was a school teacher, an entrepreneur, a nightclub owner, a pastor, a coach, consultant, and been running Giant really with Jeremie for the last 11 years. So, he always say if you were to meet his friends at the age of 30, and ask who would be the least likely guru on relational intelligence? Probably, he would be in everyone's top three.

So, everything they've learned usually has come out of their own personal failure and trying to work out why human beings behave the way they do. And also, how can they help people do relationships better in every area of their life? That's really been the heart and the joy of the last few years.

About Steve’s Book – The Communication Code

Me: So, your new book that was mentioned in reading your bio, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?

Steve shared that they kind of say the book is for anyone who is involved in any form of human interaction relationship, i.e., everyone. They write for leaders really, but he honestly believe all the resources they created, this is probably the one that leaders apply most in their home relationships as much as they do anywhere else.

So, the premise gives you a couple of things. One is that transmission of information is not the same as effective communication. So, just because you've sent information to someone does not mean that they've understood the intent with which you've sent it or your expectations as to how you would wish them to respond. So, they use the analogy of saying, if you think of a communication code for those sort of like the enigma machine or a codebreaker, if I could send to you a communication code in advance of the transmission of information, which shared with you how I would like you to respond, we are more likely to meet each other in the middle and communicate effectively.

So, the basic premise is there are five communication codes, each come with clues. If he said to Yanique, “I'm going to send this to you, I want you to critique it, I want you to tell me why it's not going to work, you won't hurt my feelings. It goes live in two hours. If there's mistakes, I want to know, full critique invited.”

Second one is Collaboration, where basically he says, “Yanique, I've been working on something, I think it's pretty good, but I think you can bring things that will make it better.” So, full collaboration, please help make this better, whatever that is.

Clarify, if he says to you, “Yanique, you know I've got something really important to share, I don't think it's going to come out perfectly first time. Would you ask great questions, don't try and critique or collaborate too soon. Help me get out what I'm really trying to say.”

Because clarification is usually the ability to ask questions before you launch into something else.

Care is the fourth communication code, which says, this is what I got wrong many, many times where just because someone is transmitting information to him, doesn't mean they want him to fix them, solve them or be their consultant. Care means, “Steve, I am struggling right now, what I'm going to say to you probably bears no resemblance to what the real issues are. I just need to know that somebody cares enough about me to be present, to listen, not trying to solve me, not trying to fix me.”

Then the last one was celebrate, which is, he might say, “Yanique, hey, before we go on, this is really important to me, I'd love us to take a moment to celebrate something really special, not move on too quickly and go.”

So, the idea being is you'd be amazed if you add five communication codes that you send in advance of the transmission of your information, you will find that basically, relationships that you struggle with at work, with the people you lead, even the people you have at home, you will be amazed what happens when you actually give them clues as to how you want to respond.

So, there you go, that's the quickest overview he’s ever given of the communication code book, so apologies if that was longer than you were hoping, but he hopes it at least wet your appetite.

Me: It did. So, just run back through the five C's for me. You said Critique, Collaboration, and what was the third one?

Steve shared, Clarify, Care and Celebrate.

So, what happens is that all of us have default communication codes that are wired into our personality. So, when he doesn't think about it, he automatically tries and collaborate but it's experiences critique. His wife, for her care is number one, and clarify is number two. So, when people present to him things that they're struggling with, unless he’s intentional, he will usually try and solve their problems.

And it's amazing how often that goes wrong because he’s not actually able to meet the expectations, unspoken by the way of the person on the other side of him and just for every leader, every day when you're managing people in different contexts will almost always end up with miscommunication, this is just simple. Children can learn it and understand it, they use it at home the whole time. And it's been transformative, so that's why they share it.

Understanding Your Primary Communication Code

Me: Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if someone wanted to know what was their primary code, right, because you said your primary one is collaboration, but it's received as critique. And your wife’s care and clarify. So, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?

Steve shared that there is, if you go to www.giantworldwide.com, there's a free assessment there. Or it might be actually www.giantos.com.

So, there's a free assessment. But it's really interesting when actually you begin to think about the transmissions of the miscommunication. So, a lot of people either think by sending an email they've communicated effectively, and the reality is, the moment you grasp as a leader that transmission is not the same as effective communication, you also begin to think, how could I use this, now he'll even use it with people who haven't learned the communication code. He'll say to them, “Hey, before I respond to you this moment, you've asked me for this. Can I just be clear, what do you hope happens here? Are you asking me just to listen and be a good friend or a good boss? Are you asking me to celebrate with you? Do you want to ask good questions, you asked me to help make it better? Or do you want me to tell you why I think it will or won't work?”

So, if you think about it, you can become intentional immediately and amazingly when people believe that you are more relationally intelligent as a leader, you'll be amazed at how much your influence grows with the teams and the people you lead every day. It's amazing what people do when they feel that they're being listened to, heard and that you're committed to trying to really hear what they're trying to say, rather than what he guesses he used to do, which was just respond with whatever he thought was most appropriate in the moment, or whatever pressure he was dealing with.

The Importance of the Five C’s in Customer Experience

Me: Now, a big part of communication, Steve, and I'm kind of bringing this back to customer experience, right? Typically, a customer will reach out to an organization for primarily two reasons, to make a request, it could be for an existing service that they have with your company or product, or it could be for a new service that they’re seeking to attain. Or they're calling because they have a problem and they would like it resolved. So, primarily those are like the two channels that customers will reach out to you for. What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?

Steve shared that it's a really good question. His instinct in EQ is to say that clarify is probably the place to start. Because in a sense, the clarification is what are they really wanting to happen? What are they really hoping happens? And he guess asking the right questions in the beginning, for those of us who are problem solvers, we tend to launch into problem solving quickly.

And he would say that really understanding, well, is somebody just wanting a rant, does somebody just want to have their pound of flesh and get that off there and he just needs to sit there and care and not try and solve it. Or do they have a specific problem that they really hope he can help them with?

He thinks it's unlikely that celebrate is going to be the agenda, but it would be nice if they were ringing up to say how amazing they think your product is. But he would say probably the clarify is where you start and making a judgement of whether what this person really wants is just you to listen, or whether they're actually more likely inviting you beyond the initial clarification into a collaborative process, how do I help bring a resolution to the reason that you are contacting customer service?

Now, he thinks the other one, he doesn't know what it's like in your part of the world, but you'd be amazed how many people will spend an awful long time waiting to get through to a customer service line. So, he thinks sometimes the disarming connection, the saying, “I'm so sorry. I'm aware you've had to wait a long time, I would love to be able to do everything I can to help you resolve whatever the issues are.” He always think that goes a long way with him when someone at least recognizes that he’s probably been on the call longer than he was hoping he would be.

Improve on the Competence of Asking the Right Questions

Me: Agreed. So, I'm happy you said clarify, because the question I really wanted to ask you, but I kind of wanted to hear what you would have said based on the customer experience approach is. When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. And it has been my experience as a customer service trainer and even as a podcaster, I must say I've gotten much better at doing it over the years, but I find a lot of people who are in customer service practitioner roles struggle with this, like how can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.

Steve shared that he thinks you actually master your content and the products of which you are going to be answering people's questions. There's a competency filter which means, “Do you know how to help somebody in that process?”

And he thinks it's different again, whether you're doing it online, or telephone or whether you're maybe in a physical place, like if he goes to the Apple store, the geeks helped him, there's different things he would say depending on whether it's face to face or whether more likely it's even just over a phone because he thinks you have to remember is that communication, only 10% of communication is the words that are used, 35% is the tone with which the words are offered. And then 55% is the nonverbal communication body language.

So, you're delivering customer service and all you have his tone of voice and words, you're already having to work hard to really understand what is it this person is seeking to communicate.

So, for him, he thinks that communication part is potentially really helpful, because it's almost taking the time to clarify and ask the question to really make sure you understand what the intent and the expectation.

So, there's the two things that he’s always trying to understand when someone's speaking to him, what is their intent really? And what is their expectation of this engagement? Even if he knows they probably won't tell him, or they may be unaware of even knowing what it is in the first place is the reason communication is so difficult to train.

But it's also how people have tools, it becomes really significant when people are able to begin to decode what is the intent, what is the expectation, in his world, obviously, you alluded to something called five voices, he spent about the last 20-25 years trying to work out why humans behave the way they do and understanding that different personalities react very predictably to different interactions. Now, that's probably a high level of sales skills and customer service is a degree of sales if you think about it.

But actually, there's another piece that if people want to add skills, begin to listen to the words that people use, whether that's in the way that neuro linguistic programme would, programming would start to think about, do they talk about what they see, what they hear? Or are they more kinesthetic and in our language of voices, he’s listening for what type of personality is presenting themselves to him in the way that they engage, in the way they communicate.

So, he would argue that in any human interaction, the person communicating, transmitting to you is giving you lots of clues.

The question is, to your point, how much time do we really spend listening and trying to understand, discern who this person is, what their intent, what are the expectations before we launch into probably what they were expecting, which is a more collaborative approach to how do we help resolve their issue, bearing in mind that the presenting issue may not be the real issue.

There's so much in there, here's the thing he'll encourage to anyone who's really interested in developing their skills in this area, he’s your kind of Beacon of Hope, because he’s like 24 years on now into this as one of the least relation intelligent people by nature, sadly, by personality. And actually, now many would say, I think really hard about it because I’ve really had to learn, the things that don't come naturally to you, you often end up being a better teacher and coach, because you've actually had to wrestle and struggle with your own inability at my time to listen.

They have a tool in their toolbox called the boomerang effect, learn to be interested before trying to be interesting. It's like relational intelligence 101. And he thinks it's amazing how often people want to talk to you about them and whatever you say, it reminds them of them or where they've been, that's another area that he’s not sure where the customer experience particularly, but as a communication tip, it's amazing what happens when you meet people are interested in you, more than trying telling you how interesting they are.

Me: Yeah. Well, it's funny, you said that, because one of my very favorite books, and I try to read it at least once per year is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. And he talks about that in his book and I mean that book was published from 1933. So, it's amazing that that fundamentally is still the case today, because we are true and true human beings and as you mentioned before, some traits are just predictable.

Steve agreed that they are, and he think that's the bit which human behaviour is more predictable than any of us would ever give it credit for. And he thinks that's the bit where, he doesn't know whether you've watched the film called The Matrix. The moment you begin to understand why human beings behave the way they do, it's a little bit like the green letters and numbers coming down the screen, and you begin to watch a human interaction in different dynamics, in different ways, and you suddenly began to realize, actually is it's more predictable, and therefore if it's predictable, it can be learned.

And that actually, without it being manipulative, we can actually really work on being far more relationally intelligent and that will help us in every aspect of our leadership, whether we're working with our teams, or whether we're working at home, or whether we're ourselves engaging with clients and customers. But fundamentally, he would argue now that relational intelligence is now become even more important than classic IQ. AI does so much now. I don't know how much you play with it, but in our world is ridiculous how intelligent AI is becoming. But the one thing it doesn't do well, it doesn't do the relational intelligence piece as well as human beings do.

And he’s not convinced that it will ever replace it. All he knows is it's becoming, he often says that basically, the ability to establish, maintain and develop long term relationships inside and outside your organization is the primary currency of wealth and influence in the new world.

App, Website or Tool that Steve Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Steve shared that the differences in the geeks who run his business are, he tries to think what for him, he thinks 1Password as a middle aged man is the app that he loves the most he looked in before, and he has 376 logins and very secure pieces of data in one app, which basically means I doesn't have to try and have 357 passwords identical. So, 1Password is the best. He doesn't know what it is USD $3.99 a month. But actually, that makes him feel more secure and safe online, that's him personally.

The business, he thinks if you were to speak to their team at the moment, they're building an app, they use a software called Framer, but it's a way in which you can see what technology in the app will be and do and look like before you actually have to actually engage in building the coding. So, he’s a massive fan of Framer, even though he’s not the person who actually runs it. There's some far younger, clever UI, UX developers who do all that work. But fundamentally, he’s always massively impressive with what Framer does.

What Steve is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Steve stated that that’s a great question. Well, he thinks he probably alluded to it in the sense that they have worked for years to try and codify tools to help leaders do a better job in the visual world we live in. What they're working on at the moment and this is the thing which he smiles as he says it. They've run a B2B business up until this point, they've licensed kind of coaches and consultants to use their stuff.

But they're building a B2C app at the moment, which will take all of the Jedi mind tricks of the last 20 years about why people behave the way they do. They'll take the best of their tools, the best of what AI is able to do, and they will create a five voices out which will come your way later this year, which basically is your personalized coach in relation to, it will know your personality and your wiring. And it will basically customize content and learning for you and allow you to access it in the way that you most love to learn.

So, if you want podcasts, ebooks, audiobooks, but the idea really of actually rather than having to read one book, and we all read the same thing. He’s watching the ability to customize content in form and style that is unique to you as an individual. And he’s never seen that before.

So, he thinks communication code will be the last book they write in the late industrial format of a published book. He thinks they will customize content for individuals in formats and voices even and length of time, you'll be able to have your daily version of encouragement that will come straight to you when it comes, so that's what the team is working on at the moment. He gets to see all the progress week by week and minimum viable products is going to be ready for mid-May. So, watch this space for personality driven grows customized to you.

Where Can We Find Steve Online

LinkedIn – Steve Cockram

Email – [email protected]

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Steve Uses

When asked about quote that he tends to revert to, Steve shared that he’s got plenty of those. But probably the most common one is the Theodore Roosevelt quote when he talks about, “If he's going to fail, he would rather fail while daring greatly than be counted among those cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” So, that's what he goes back to and just go, “If I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail while daring greatly, going after something big enough, that actually could make a dent and for good in the world.”

Me: Fantastic. So, we will have definitely have that quote in the show notes of this episode. So, just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Steve, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast and sharing about your book, The Communication Code, the five C's that you mentioned, how it works, the inner workings of why it's important to listen, asking the right questions, understanding that relational communication is definitely the epitome of where we're moving forward to in this world. And just how as human beings, we can utilize a lot of the cues and clues that are given to us to improve on how it is that we transmit the communication with each other. So, it was really insightful, and I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The 100X Leader: How to Become Someone Worth Following by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

• The 5 Voices: How to Communicate Effectively without Everyone You Lead by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

• The 5 Gears: How to Be Present and Productive When There is Never Enough Time by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

• How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

• The Communication Code by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
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- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
227: Exploring the Spectrum of Leadership: From Visionary Insights to Introverted Strengths with Darby Vannier
9 apr· Navigating the Customer Experience
Darby Vannier, with over 20 years of experience, is a seasoned leader adept at building and growing organizations. As President & CEO of Indispensable Leadership Group, he excels as an executive coach, consultant, speaker, and fractional COO, focusing on strategic and leadership development. He has led effective teams of more than a 100 employees, coached others into their own leadership positions, and created stability during challenging organizational transitions. Darby built his career on the philosophy that developing the right people is the key to success.

Learn more at www.beindispensable.com.

Questions

· Even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you are to where you are today.

· Your book titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? What was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?

· Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?

· Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. Explained to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.

· In the book, you also mentioned the whole conscious competence model. So, I'd love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.

· Could you also share with our listeners, what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it had a great impact on you.

· Can you also share with us what's the one thing in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, and the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

· Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights

Darby’s Journey

Me: Now Darby, even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Darby shared that it’s kind of a diverse career actually. So, he started off in retail, actually kind of in the entertainment industry, working as a manager at a 22-screen movie theatre, which is an interesting industry, especially back at that time when it was before digital movies and everything, and everything came in on natural celluloid film and everything.

So, yeah, 22 screen movie theatre, they would serve 1000’s of people a day and that was an interesting experience getting started because it definitely was jumping right into that retail type environment, bringing in at that point, you're talking about most of their employees were high school or college aged students and, and so that's just a different level of team member that you're managing.

From there, he kind of jumped even further into retail, he actually became a store manager for Kinkos at the time, so the print shop at Kinkos, which is now FedEx Office, but at the time, it was still Kinkos. And at that time, all the Kinkos were 24-hour stores, like they never closed, didn't close on any holidays, didn't close any hours, nothing. So, that was definitely a learning experience he will say, managing a 24 hour a day business from that standpoint.

And he did that about 6 years and then moved into the non-profit world where he took over as CEO of an International Livestock Association, actually for alpacas of all things. And it's always an interesting story because he tells people when he got the interview for the job, he had to look up what an alpaca was because he had a general idea that it was like a llama, but he didn't exactly know what it was, so kind of entered into a whole new realm there. And he did that for about 11 years where he reported directly to a board, grew that organization, fixed a lot of things in that organization, and then grew that organization. And then they actually went through a merger process and merged with another national organization. And he took over as CEO of the newly created merged organization for that industry.

And then from there, he decided, he’s kind of ready to be done with this non-profit thing, and he exited non-profit, went back into the for-profit world, joined a company that does leadership development, strategic planning, executive coaching, that sort of thing, because he’s always been passionate about leadership, and did that for about 7 years.

And then last year decided he’s going to break off and do his own things. He had a company established previously for some consulting and stuff that he had done and he just expanded that and started offering fractional leadership services and executive coaching on his own and have built that up from there. So, still working on that and that's kind of gets us up to date.

About Darby’s Book – The Indispensable Leader

Me: Now, as part of this journey, you are also an author and your book is titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book, I do have some questions I want to ask specifically, but I kind of just want to hear in your own words, like what was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?

Darby shared that the book is really geared towards anybody, he wouldn't even say young leaders, he would say anybody who's really either starting out in leadership, leading other people or even if they have been leading people and they just want to have some experience and some knowledge to refine maybe their leadership style.

And it's kind of one of those things, he’s kind of kept stories over the years throughout his career, because he’s sure you have experienced throughout your career, you encounter interesting things, he'll just put it that way, some challenging things and some difficult things, and then some really exciting things.

So, he had lots of things that he has accumulated throughout his career that he felt like these were good learning experiences for him at the time, and had he had this information when he was starting out being a leader, it would have been highly beneficial.

So, in the midst of COVID, back in 2020, when everything kind of shut down, and we all had more time, because we were staying home and everything, he decided that seems like a good time to start writing a book. So, that's when he started on the book.

And the book really kind of goes down the path of taking this idea, he started off the book by basically saying, you hear people say this question….”Are you a manager? Or Are you a leader?”

And he really attacks that and he say, we're really looking at that wrong, because he thinks that's the wrong question. It assumes that people who would probably consider themselves managers of things, cannot be good leaders and that's not the case. He knew a fair number of people who definitely consider themselves managers, who are really spectacular leaders as well.

So, he kind of asked people to look at it a little bit differently and what he thinks people mean is actually more of are you more manager oriented? Or are you more visionary and entrepreneurial oriented?

And if you think about that as a spectrum, everybody exists somewhere on that spectrum. And you don't want to be at the far end of either end of that because you don't want to be too high visionary, that you just come up with a lot of ideas and nothing gets done. But you don't want to be too far managerial where you only care about checking off your list, and you don't really care why you're doing it.

So, what he basically asked people to do is think about this more like a Venn diagram, where you have two intersecting circles and let's take the best traits of both manager and visionary archetypes, and create the best possible leader that you can be because there's only a certain amount of things that you have access to yourself, there's only a certain amount of things that you can gain yourself.

So, let's find those best things and then let's try to release the bad things so the bad traits of those archetypes so that we don't fall into those ruts as well. And he kind of goes down that journey and he uses a lot of stories from his career to illustrate various points on leadership and talking about mentorship and some of those things as well so that people can gain that knowledge that he didn't necessarily have at the time as he was going through it.

The Effectiveness of the Manager’s Role and the Leader’s Role

Me: So, I like the fact that you spoke about, are you a leader or a manager, but even outside of that you talk about in the book, just visionary leaders and I'm not sure what was the other term that you had outside of visionary? Managers.

So, can you just differentiate, I know you said, we look on it from a different perspective. But if we were to put it in terms of hierarchy, or better yet, in terms of in an organization, if you really want to motivate people, get them to do what you want them to do without having to literally stand up over them with a stick over their head saying, “If you don't do this, this is the sanction that's going to be enforced.” Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?

Darby shared that he would actually say both are important and it's good to have a mix of both types of individuals within an organization.

Here's the reason why. So, people with managerial characteristics who fall more on that side of the spectrum are people who are very process oriented, they're usually very organized, they're the ones who are able to look at something and say, here's how it's going to get done. They can outline the 50 steps it's going to take to get there. They're about creating a list and checking off the things and getting stuff done. They're the ones that are talking about, what are we going to do? And how are we going to do it?

And sometimes they don't always care about the why they should and that's what he means by making sure that they try to pull in the best traits of both worlds. But those are the folks who are going to get stuff done for you. And they are the folks who can execute on a vision. So, basically, they can take a vision of a founder or a visionary and they can translate that vision into the action steps that it's going to take to accomplish it.

So, on the visionary side, you have to have visionaries as well, because the high visionary people, those are the folks who are generating lots of ideas, they're coming up with five or ten new ideas every day, they're usually very passionate about their ideas.

Oftentimes entrepreneurs are visionaries, because that is the type of individuals who are drawn to starting a business and taking that risk and everything. Because in their minds, when they think of an idea, when they envision something, it's done like we're there, and it is done. They're the ones that are more going to be talking about why are we doing something, like they want to be able to explain and show their passion for why is it that we want to accomplish whatever it is that they've come up with.

The difficulty you can run into with a visionary though is, is that they tend to move on very quickly, because if you get a very high visionary person, they only love generating new ideas, they don't want to talk about how to get there, they just want it done.

So, that visionary needs to have people who are more managerial in nature so that they can actually get stuff done. And in most companies, you almost have to have two top individuals who are one is one and one is the other.

That's why you often see a CEO whose high visionary and you see a COO who is the person who executes and those two individuals have to have a high amount of trust, because they will piss each other off and that's the bottom line.

Because what will happen is, is that COO who's more process oriented, who's the one going, “Okay, there's these 50 problems we have to solve before we can get there” they are going to be like saying slow down and pump the brakes, we got to back up here.

And the high visionary CEO is the one saying, “No, we got to move forward. And I want to do all these things, and everything.”

So, in order for their company to be highly successful, you almost have to have that mix. You see this with celebrity leaders he'll call him. So, people like Steve Jobs, for example, it's well known that he was very high visionary, brilliant guy, came up with amazing things, had very high expectations, very passionate about his industry.

But he learned very early on, he basically lost his company initially, before he came back many years later, he learned very early on that he needed to have people that could execute those ideas, because he just wanted to spend time on generating ideas, he needed an execution team as well.

So, eventually, he figured out he had to have individuals who worked with him that he trusted, that could execute those ideas that could challenge him and slow him down, he would on the opposite side of that push them forward. So, it's this weird balancing act. So, every company needs to have a good mix of both in order to be successful.

The Art of Being Curious as a Leader

Me: Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. And curiosity sometimes I think can be misinterpreted, sometimes, for example, people will think that curiosity I find is being inquisitive, it's a similar adjective but inquisitive for some reason connotates, almost you being concerned or asking questions about things that should not concern you. But I do believe that that's how we learn right? About asking questions, exploring, experiencing. Explaine to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.

Darby shared that it certainly can mean inquisitive and that is something that it can mean. But when he talks about being curious and when he coaches leaders and encourage them to be curious, what he’s really trying to do is encourage folks to be lifelong learners, like he wants you to be curious about new things, go read books, go meet new people, go join a group that you wouldn't necessarily join because by gaining those additional experiences, and that additional knowledge, you're only going to grow as a leader. So, he’s very big on making sure that folks that he coaches and himself, do not get stagnant.

And what that means is you have to be engaged, you have to be engaged in what you do. You have to be engaged in your industry, you have to be engaged in life. So, sometimes it's professional development, and you're joining an association or you're reading a book or whatever.

Sometimes it might be personal development where you're learning a new language or travelling to a country that you've never been to so that you can gain that experience because all of those things are important. They are going to make you a much, much better well-rounded leader, especially as he speaks to college students every now and then.

And as he speaks to college students, that's one thing that he talked to them about is gain a broad set of experiences because a lot of us really end up, in the United States, a lot of folks who go to college end up going to college nearby home, so, they're exposed to, yes, a new set of people, but it may be very similar to what they're used to. So, he encourages people to get out of your comfort zone and go do some other things because the more experiences you have, the better leader you're going to be.

Certainly, looking back at his career, he’s sure as you look at your career, every single thing that he dealt with and went through, all of that past history really made him into the leader that he is today. And everything that he’s doing today will make him into the leader that he is in five years, that's the bottom line.

So, you got to have that curiosity, if you don't, you're going to end up stagnant, you're not going to really grow as a leader, you're probably not getting promoted up very much. In most industries, you really do need to be curious so that you can continue to expand as well.

Me: Yes, I totally agree that you should definitely be open to learning and from everything that you do, it definitely adds to who you are today, as you said, what you're doing now is building for where you're going be five years from now.

Conscious Competence Model and the Four Phases

Me: In the book, you also mentioned Darby, and I was exposed to this many years ago when I had done a leadership course myself, the whole Conscious Competence Model. And I liked the example that you gave with the baby. So, I'd love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.

Darby shared that this is something that really helps in coaching as well, because it's something that everybody goes through, but they don't really pinpoint that they're actually going through it.

So, the idea here is there's four phases of competence. And you really start off no matter what it is, in some new experience, in some new activity, you start a new job, you learn how to drive, whatever it is, you start off this idea as being unconsciously incompetent, which means you're incompetent at whatever you're doing, and you don't even know you're incompetent at it. And that's a big problem because then you're doing things and you don't even know you're doing them wrong.

So, the idea is, hopefully somebody will point out to you or you'll eventually move into the idea of conscious incompetence. And that's really where you're still incompetent at it, but you recognize that you're incompetent at it. So, you know, you're doing it wrong, it's kind of a situation, you know that you don't know something.

And then after that, the idea is that you move into conscious competence, which means that you're competent at it, but you have to think about it all the time, it's not become a habit, like you have to actually think about whatever the activity is. So, if you think about when you're learning to drive, this is a good thing. Or this is a thing we encounter, you have to constantly think about turning your turn signal on or stopping at the stop sign or stopping at the light or seeing the light turn yellow, or whatever that is, you are at that point consciously competent. So, you can do it, but you got to think about it all the time.

The last phase is really where you want to get to, especially with regard to leading people, you want to get to unconscious competence, where it is that you are competent at something and you don't have to constantly think about it, it just happens. So, this basically is the idea of it becomes habit.

There's actually an author named Charles Duhigg, he wrote a book called The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, it's a spectacular book, but he talks about habit loops where your brain is set up so that it creates these habit loops out of things that you do regularly. And that's how you end up, if you've ever driven a car, and then you're driving along, and sometimes you're like, I don't remember the last five minutes, and it kind of freaks you out. That happens because of that, because your brain can handle that sort of thing. And basically, has created a habit loop.

It's the same reason when he left his position last year, and he was no longer going to the office on a regular basis, your habit loop changes. So, normally my habit loop for driving to the office was the same every day, he would do the exact same thing, the exact same route, whatever it was, well, on two different occasions, at the end of the year, last year, he was driving in the direction of where his old office was. And he looked up and pretty soon, like he’s driving towards the office, he’s going the whole wrong direction for where he was headed. But his brain engaged this habit loop that his brain thought, “Oh, you're doing the habit loop, we haven't done in a while to go to the office.” And then he ended up on the entirely wrong road and everything because he was going to the office. But that's the idea of unconscious competence that you want to get to is be able to create those habits so that things just happen for you on a regular basis.

Me: So, just want to remind our listeners, Darby's book is out, available on all platforms that you would want to purchase a book from, I would definitely recommend that you go and consume some of the great content he has in it. I haven't fully finished reading it, but the parts that I have been able to garner were really, really insightful. And he was able to share a bit of it with our listeners in the conversation today. So, definitely a must have read for 2024. Thank you so much for sharing Darby.

App, Website or Tool that Darby Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Darby shared that from his perspective, it's LinkedIn just because of the industry that he’s in. It is definitely the one online resource he could not live without. There's a lot of things out there, of course, especially with social media, and everything nowadays, it really depends on the industry individuals are in but for him, LinkedIn is it and definitely those who are listening, you can find him on LinkedIn, he will connect with you just search for Darby Vannier, and he’s happy to connect with you on LinkedIn as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Darby

When asked about books that has had a great impact, Darby shared that there is lot of books that certainly he has utilized over the years. But there is one book that he has bought and given away more copies of this book than any other book.

And it's a book called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, it's by a woman, her name is Susan Cain. And it's about kind of leading as an introvert. And the reason that he liked it is that he knows it doesn't always seem like it to individuals when he does these podcasts that he loves to speak to people and stuff like that. But he’s a pretty big introvert. And it was the first book that he read that he was like somebody actually gets him.

So, she kind of talks about what it's like to be an introvert and how it's kind of a spectrum. And there are certainly individuals who are introverts who have no desire to speak to people, for example. Whereas, he loves that, if he gets a group of 1500 people to speak in front of great, he’s happy. Now, he doesn't want to step down off the stage and talk to you one on one really, afterwards, he'll do it. And you won't necessarily know that he’s uncomfortable. But that's not his comfort zone.

So, every introvert’s a little bit different and it's more about how your energy is recharged. So, his energy is recharged by quiet time and being alone. He has no problem going on a vacation for a few days and being by himself the entire time and not talking to anybody, that would freak out an extrovert. But the reason he loves the book is and that he’s given it to both introverts and extroverts. And the reason it's important for extroverts to read as well is you work with a lot of introverted individuals and this world we live in is catered to extroverts. And it can be incredibly difficult for those of us who are introverts to live in. And we are forced to adjust to you all.

So, he encourages extroverts to read this book as well, because you really learn a lot, especially as you lead and manage people, it will help you better manage individuals, it will also help you understand how to take advantage of utilizing the skills and the experience of introverts that maybe an extrovert doesn't necessarily have. So, from a professional standpoint, he always recommends, he also recommend it for individuals who are married, who have spouses who maybe are the opposite of them, because it will help you to totally understand your spouse a lot more as well.

What Darby is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Darby shared that he’s still under a year on totally breaking out on his own and building his own company. So, building his business is what he’s really passionate about right now. He’s working on a new speaking topic regarding the impact that leaders make in the world and even over interactions that they might have considered insignificant. So, it's kind of like the ripple effect, so he’s working on this talk and he’s excited about that as well to be able to talk to folks about that.

And then just really working to help each one of his fractional leadership clients be as successful as possible. It is so amazing to be able to work with multiple clients and see individual companies continue to grow and scale and to have a part in that as well.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Darby Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Darby shared that he doesn't really have a quote, but he kind of have more of a philosophy and his philosophy with this. And he uses this again when he coaches other leaders too is, “Everything is temporary. And the one thing you have to remember is, is that everybody around you is going through their own stuff.” So, he always encourages people to be kind when you're dealing with other individuals, because you don't know what's going on in their lives, no matter how well you think you know them, you don't know everything that's going on. So, as he encounters adversity, he tends to kind of revert back to, “Okay, let's control what I can control. And then I need to let the other stuff go.”

He certainly has had multiple times in his career where he’s had some very difficult situations that he’s dealt with professionally. And that's what he’s come back to is okay, can you control this particular thing that's happening? No. But you can control these other two aspects of it and you can make sure that you do those things really well.

And what he has found is if he does that, and he just remember that this is just one more piece of experience in his life and in his career, part of that past history that he said that makes us all who we are, if he can remember that, then it's usually easy to get through those things. Not that it's not a challenge, still can be a challenge, still can be stressful, but it does definitely help you as you move through those challenging times.

Me: All right. So, we will definitely have that summary of what you shared with us in terms of that, quote, or that thought, that helps to get you from one stage to the next if for any reason you feel derailed.

Where Can We Find Darby Online

Website – www.beindispensable.com

Facebook - Indispensable Leadership Group

LinkedIn – Indispensable Leadership Group

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/darbyvannier/

Me: Now Darby, thank you so much for hopping on our podcast today and sharing all these great insights from your book, as well as all of the experience and exposures that you've had over the years that have crafted the person that you are today and the invaluable knowledge and experience and coaching that you've been able to offer to your clients. And so, the information that you shared with us was extremely valuable. The examples that you gave, the characteristics and the comparison as it relates to having a bit of both is critical to the organization success as a manager and a leader was really, really, really insightful and I just want to extend a great amount of gratitude to you for taking time to share with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Indispensable Leader: How to Use Your Inner Manager and Visionary to Achieve Leadership Success by Darby Vannier

• The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg

• Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking Susan Cain

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- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
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226: Unlocking Success: Conversations with Barry Klein on Cultural Alignment, Recruitment, and Customer Service Delivery with Barry Klein
26 mrt· Navigating the Customer Experience
Barry Klein is Vice president of Success and Enablement at Austin-Based Talroo, the data driven job and hiring event advertising platform that helps businesses reach the candidates they need to build their essential workforce. Barry provides leadership to Talroo’s team of Customer Success Analysts who have both revenue and customer service responsibilities for multiple verticals.

Passionate about establishing “customers” as “partners”, he focuses on long-term relationships, lifetime value and establishing raving fans. With more than 30 years of experience in customer-facing and executive roles, including Vice President of Sales Engineering for Vignette Corp, Barry also spent several years running his own small business and consultancy. Barry holds a BS in Computer Science from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.

Questions

· We always like to hear from our guests in their own words, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

· Can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you believe recruitment is so important as it relates to customer service delivery?

· In terms of how do we hire well and focus on cultural alignment? And I imagine this begins in the interview process. What are three main things that you believe if you're tasked with that responsibility for an organization, where would you put your focus, maybe three top areas that you put your focus on if we're trying to get cultural alignment?

· Now, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Can you share with us also, what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or there was an obstacle or hurdle that was presented to you and it caused you to not be on track but when you thought of that quote or when you recited that quote, it kind of got you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Barry’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So, I know we read your bio that gives us formally how it is that you got to where you are today, but we always like to hear from our guests in their own words, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

Barry stated that he appreciates Yanique asking and thanked her for mentioning his alma mater, RPI. As he said, he was a Computer Science Major and he was in college in the late 80s. So, the world of programming was very different than it would be today. But he wrote a lot of codes, in fact, when he went to his parent’s house years after he graduated, and he saw the Dot Matrix Paper printouts of the code he had written, he was like, who wrote this, he couldn't in a million years, he couldn't have recreated that code.

But by the time he graduated college, he knew that while he enjoyed coding very much, and it was why he went to get a computer science degree, he done enough. And what he became intrigued about was the intersection of the technology and people.

And his first roles out of college were not really tech support per se but sort of high-end engineering support for customers who are developing with their platform and that led him closer to customers.

And what he found he really enjoy and what he imagines he’s best that if he has to choose his best skill is, is explaining and painting a picture about technical topics for non-technical folks, that is very gratifying.

It's allowed him to have experience both with frontline decision makers, frontline influencers at any given customer, as well as executive suite folks who need these pictures drawn and need that insight. And he really enjoyed that, and he especially enjoy not only doing that himself, but enabling teams to do that with best practices, all the nuance that you need when you're in that customer facing role, whether it's pre sales or post sales, not just what you say, but how you say it. All of those things come together to create the kinds of roles that are always dynamic, and no two days are ever the same.

The Importance of Recruitment as it Relates to Customer Service Delivery

Me: So, a big part of what you're doing at your current organization is recruitment, correct? So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you believe recruitment is so important as it relates to customer service delivery, maybe connect the dots so that our listeners can have a good understanding of why having good recruitment techniques is critical to ensuring that you are aligned properly to get the kind of deliverables that you're looking from as it relates to customer service.

Barry shared that it is an interesting intersection because the skills and mindset of customer success folks is something that would exist regardless of what the industry you happen to be in is, but in their case, because Talroo is a talent matching platform that strives to match opportunities, especially for frontline workers with having the frontline worker at the right job, in the right place, at the right time, for the right price, so that they get the happy connection between an employer who needs the talent and the person who has the talent, making that connection is very gratifying and their entire platform is aligned around that.

And it does create an interesting mindset for them because they're helping employers recruit and then you say, “Well, how does that affect our own recruitment? What are we looking for? What are the processes? Everything from how do we source our candidates to how do we interview them to how do we determine their cultural alignment with our organization?”

So, all things recruitment is really near and dear to their heart.

And the other thing that makes it fun is, what they do is at an intersection of such a huge part of the economy, he can't read a newspaper or put on CNBC or watch a business channel, and not have them talking about the unemployment rate and the impact. So, they are really in the forefront of all of that.

But one of the things that they've really been focusing on as they craft where Talroo is going is very personal to him in terms of how he recruits and who he hires and who he looks for. One of the things they're seizing on as sort of their mission is improving the lives of both employers and candidates, one person at a time. And he loves that tagline because it captures how personal it is, it's one person at a time.

And he believes in a leadership role, the single most important thing that you can do is hire well, that is absolutely the single most important thing, if you hire well, most things take care of themselves, you hire well, you train well and you correct hiring problems quickly, if you've made a mistake, if you don't have that proper connection, that's always very painful, if you have to do that.

And then really the role he believes of a leader is to create the environment in which these talented people who are motivated and intelligent, where they can succeed. So, he often says he doesn't do any real work, the thing that he’s most proud of is creating an environment in which these folks can succeed, get the political stuff out of the way, and set them up for success. And if we found the right people who are customer success oriented, whether that service-oriented heart, they can then teach them what they need to know about their technology, their solution, but if they are the right cultural fit and the right kind of person, then they're 80% of the way there.

Areas to Focus On To Achieve Cultural Alignment

Me: So, I like the fact that in your explanation just know, you spoke about cultural alignment, and I think I would love for you to go a little bit more granular as it relates to that in terms of how do we hire well and focus on cultural alignment? And I imagine this begins in the interview process. Are there some key questions that you think may need to be asked? Does it boil down to the advertisement that you put out in terms of who you're attracting to apply in the first place? Where do you start? And maybe what are three, I would say main things that you believe if you're tasked with that responsibility for an organization, where would you put your focus, maybe three top areas that you put your focus on if we're trying to get cultural alignment?

Barry stated that it is a huge topic for them and in fact, he was just speaking with her CEO and they were thinking back on some candidates who didn't work out, not his organization per se, but across the company.

And in every case, when they violated in a sense their own rules, not that there are hard and fast rules, but when they looked past a lack of cultural alignment, the candidate didn't work out.

And they have a very formal process whereby, typically, it's done by their HR Department as part of the interviewing cycle, where a series of questions that are available are asked, in theory, the same topics would have come up in the other interviews with you want a candidate to meet some peers, of course, he interviews them as the hiring manager, and then they meet with HR.

And he will tend to focus on interpersonal relationships and problem solving. When you look at their values and we've written them down and he thinks so many companies these days happily have their pillars of their culture on their website, whether they live by them, it's hard to say. He appreciates candidates who challenge them on those things and want to make sure that it's real.

But they talk about things like being customer first, they talk about teamwork, they talk about accountability. He will and others, he will focus very much on the teamwork aspect of things and conflict resolution all with an eye toward, are we doing the right thing for their customer and for themselves, he can become a Johnnie one note around win-win scenarios. He has no interest in someone who is so accommodating of a customer that they might put his company at risk.

They look for partners and they don't say that in a glib fashion or as a soundbite, it's true. The nature of their business is such that if they have a customer who just wants them to service them and does not want to meet them at an appropriate point, in terms of communication and keeping data flowing and sharing reality, what's going on, if they're not a real partner, they don't do well with them.

And so, he needs customer success folks who understand that, who understand how to deal with conflict, who can navigate the complexities of those interpersonal relationships.

So, they'll ask questions around, of course, “Give him a scenario where you and a colleague were out of alignment and in disagreement, what did you do?” And you will hope that the candidate is honest and doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, normally you can figure out if they're telling you what you want to hear.

But that ultimately leads them to the single most important question in their values alignment survey when they take a candidate and they ask them to meet for half hour with their HR Department, the single most important question came out of a real life scenario with their CEO actually, where it led to the following question, “You go to a restaurant and you have your iPad on the front seat of your car, you park your car, and you don't lock the door, when you come back, the iPad is gone. Whose fault is it?”

And it's a fascinating question because what they are looking for is, “It's my fault.”

It doesn't mean the thief doesn't have some accountability.

And it doesn't mean that the restaurant might not have a more secure parking lot.

But in the end, you left a valuable item out in the open with an unlocked door, they didn't even have to smash the window, they just opened the door and took your very expensive piece of equipment. How do you not think that was my fault? I live in the real world, I have to have accountability for that kind of thing.

It leads to interesting discussions; they've had discussions around none of us ever want to blame a victim in the course of a crime being committed.

And the reason he liked that scenario so much is the car wasn't even violated. Were you a victim? Or were you just dumb? You invited someone you say, “Please rob me!”

If he leaves his front door unlocked, okay, you blame the thief, you shouldn't be robbed, society shouldn't allow that to happen. But you know what, he lives in the real world, he locked his door when he leaves.

So, those kinds of questions really matter. And that question in particular, and he will tell you, he’s very pleased, their candidates are honest, and their HR folks take very good notes, offer their own opinions. He'll go into their ITS and read those notes. And that's the question he’s looking for.

Are you personally accountable for your actions?

You can give 10% to the thief and you can give 10% to the to the restaurant, but if you're not thinking that you're 70% or 80% responsible for that, you might be looking for excuses as to when things don't go your way. And they're just too small a company too and they wear too many hats for anyone who has that opinion.

Me: Wow, I love that question. Thank you so much for sharing very, very good one.

App, Website or Tool that Barry Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Barry shared that it's funny, he hates to have it be the technological death star of our industry that he’s dealt with since he got into technology. But really it's their day to day tools with Microsoft, they are a Teams shop and they are finding more customers who are using Teams, of course you have Teams aficionados, and you have a lot of folks who are passionate about Slack. But they're using Teams and informally don't tell their IT Department they have some Slack channels going too. But that kind of real time communication with themselves because his team is fully remote. And so, their ability to stay in real time communication and in many cases in real time communication with their customers is proving ever, ever more valuable, they couldn't live without it at this point.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Barry

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Barry shared that it's fun to think about, currently he’s been enjoying reading history, the historian and he is a professor at Vanderbilt University, Jon Meacham is his name. He's the kind of fellow who when he's a guest on a news programme, and he finds him and he sees him, he’s actually glad they're talking about it. He’s hoping there's a way to sign up for when is Jon Meacham going to be on TV so he can go find him. He hangs on his every word and it's the kind of guy you kind of wish he was your grandfather telling you stories about the world in the past.

His biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson have been his latest readings. And he enjoys that because, a, he enjoys the break from technology and what they do every day, get his brain around something else. But it's the lessons from these great thinkers like a Thomas Jefferson as presented by a great thinker in the form of Jon Meacham where he finds himself reading his books with a highlighter, because it's not just the observations, the historical observations, but his observations when he ties these topics together. So, he always finds that fascinating, especially from a leadership standpoint.

And it's funny, the other thing that comes to mind is, it's again, he’s so much older than probably many of the listeners, but when he was in high school, he read a book by a gentleman named Roger Kahn, he became famous for his book, The Boys of Summer, which was about the 1950s, 40s and 50s, Brooklyn Dodgers.

And he wrote a book called Good Enough to Dream. And it was about his ownership stake in a minor league baseball club in Utica, New York. And the opening line has stayed with him, “The first dream full of innocence and sunlight is to play the game.” which he always loved. But early in the book, he says to someone who's associated with the team, “Are these guys any good?” And the response was, “They’re good enough to dream.” And that has always stayed with him. “Am I the best at something? Is my company the best at something?” He doesn't know, but they're good enough to give it a try and see where it leads them. And that's always stayed with him.

What Barry is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Barry shared that within his organization, he doesn't mind doing a commercial for the product Gainsight, which is the customer success platform. They recognized about 15 months ago as Talroo was growing both in terms of their customer base and their staff, that as a Salesforce shop and as a Microsoft shop, the needs for customer success weren't being met, in terms of what do they need to record? What do they need to predict? Do they have a sense around who will keep their contracts going, versus who is at risk of cancelling.

Just as a quick sidebar, Talroo, unlike a typical SaaS company does not have a long-term contract, they have to earn their customers business every month, they can cancel at will.

And so, it creates unique challenges and a real time need to know what's going on with each customer. And so, about 15 months ago, they embarked upon a project to implement a customer success platform. They ultimately chose Gainsight, he will say for anyone who is looking for a customer success platform, all of the players in the industry who they looked at were terrific, he doesn't think you could go wrong. ChurnZero to Tango, others, they were all first-class organizations, and they happened to choose Gainsight and that became an immediate game changer and continues to be.

And so, thank you for the question about what he’s focused on? Where are they growing? How are they evolving?

When they first rolled out Gainsight, it was primarily to support their efforts to track and manage and deal with renewals and even upsells are very important for upsells with their direct customers, employers who come to them and say, “Talroo will work with you directly to please advertise our jobs out in the world.” And that's what they really started with for the majority of their first year with the product.

But he has other caliber of customers who his team has to look after, including advertising agencies, and including job boards who they've had relationships with for years, who send them their jobs to advertise. And the needs are different across those different caliber of customers, and getting Gainsight rolled out now for the other members of his team and candidly getting adoption of it.

One of the things they've done very well and that he would encourage anyone thinking about any large software purchases, the people can kill a project. If any given team refuses to use Salesforce, Salesforce will fail. If any team refuses to use Gainsight, Gainsight will fail, people can win, and really torpedo a project.

So, they've done a really good job of getting buy in, forming a user council, the gentleman who is Andy Trevino, who is their administrator and RCS Ops Manager, who looks after Gainsight is always open to feedback, he's always soliciting feedback, so that they can make the solution match the way they work. He doesn't like software solutions where they have to change their behaviour in order to accommodate the tool, he wants the tool to accommodate the workflow and the processes that they already know work. And as they roll out the usage of Gainsight to this extended team, their needs are very different than their counterparts who work with their direct customers. So, getting that right is important.

And that accountability is incredibly important, because he no longer could afford and one of the reasons they went with Gainsight and started this whole project was when he wants to ask the very simple or get an answer to what he hopes would be a simple question of what's going on with fill in the blank of the customer name, it shouldn't take him 20 minutes to figure it out.

He needs all the information in one place and they're doing a terrific job of that with Gainsight with their direct customers, and getting members of his team who aren't used to it and haven't had to use it in the past, he needs to bring them along and their feedback. And he needs to make sure the product gets built out in a way that makes their lives easier, and that they see the value of it and that it's not just busy work, it's not just bureaucracy, it's that they really are using the product to make their lives better and then he gets what he needs in a leadership role, their C suite gets what it needs when they have questions about what's going on with the customer.

Many folks may have thought of this or use this line, traditionally, it's with Salesforce, they would say, on the sales side, if something isn't recorded in Salesforce, it didn't happen. That's the source of truth and that's where he’s going with Gainsight, if you don't have notes and details and specifics in Gainsight, then it didn't happen. And you don't want to do that for bureaucratic reasons, you want to do it because it makes the organization better and your customers more successful.

Me: Awesome. So, Gainsight is where you have most of your head wrapped around right now and just trying to build that out.

Where Can We Find Barry Online

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/klein-barry/

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Barry Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Barry shared that he has two, one is more serious than the other but the other, the funny one was his high school yearbook quote, but he will say plainly, he’s not a praying or religious person by nature, but he will go back to, “Dear God, grant me the strength to change the things I can, accept those that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

It really gets hard to know where you need to invest your time and energy.

What should you care about?

What do you need to back off of?

What can't you change?

So, the wisdom to know the difference between what you can change and what you have to accept is something he thinks about a lot.

The more fun quote is from the old Mary Tyler Moore Show, in the episode in which the character Chuckles The Clown is tragically killed, because he is the master of ceremonies for a parade. And he gets run over by an elephant dressed as a peanut, which leads to a ridiculous number of jokes and things about a man dressed as a peanut killed by an elephant. But because he was a clown by nature, his quotes, and the things that he did become a big part of the show. And his (Barry) high school yearbook quote was, “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.” Moments of stress, you know what, how serious can life be? “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.”

Me: I love it. Okay, Barry, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on our podcast today and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to cultural alignment and recruitment, ensuring that you're getting the right fit to ensure that you're able to meet the deliverables and as you mentioned, just mitigating against the wrong fit and mitigating against challenges and issues that could have been prevented had the recruitment been aligned and selected properly from day one. So, I thought it was a great conversation and I just want to say, thank you so much for taking time and sharing with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power by Jon Meacham

• American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House by Jon Meacham

• The Boys of Summer by Roger Kahn

• Good Enough to Dream by Roger Kahn

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
225: Passion, Persistence, and the Power of Storytelling with Cynthia Kay
19 mrt· Navigating the Customer Experience
Cynthia Kay founded Cynthia Kay and Company media production which produces high-quality communications for organizations from Fortune Global 100 to small business. A graduate of Michigan State University, Kay holds a master's in communications from Western Michigan University.

Cynthia Kay is a passionate spokesperson for small business. For more than 35 years, she has spent significant time speaking to, teaching and coaching small-business owners while running her own award-winning company. She is the Past Board Chair of the National Small Business Association (NSBA).

Cynthia and the company have been honoured with many awards including many Tellys and Woman Owned Small Business Supplier of the Year from Siemens in 2018. She has been named one of West Michigan's 50 Most Influential Women five times, and is the recipient of over 30 broadcast awards from UPI, AP, and other news organizations.

CK & CO Cynthia has authored several books. Her newest book, Small Business, Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business (Career Press 2024) is available for pre-order and will be on May 6, 2024. She writes for Entrepreneur.com, has been featured in Time Magazine, Entrepreneur Magazine's Ask the Expert and on NPR.

Questions

· We always like to give the guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today. Could you share that with us?

· Your book, Small Business. Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about that book that you have coming up? And maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book represents.

· You've been in business for 35 years, so you've been through all phases of a business over 35 years, not to mention the different experiences that your businesses would have had as it relates to the different travesties that the world had gone through. If you were to pick, let's say, one characteristic that you believe was critical for you to ride the waves over all those years to the point where you are today, what do you believe that would be?

· Based on your experience, what would you say are maybe five common mistakes that you find small businesses tend to get themselves into? And if you could give maybe a recommendation for each as to how they could prevent themselves from getting trapped into that common mistake?

· Now, Cynthia, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Now, can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago or even one that you read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or there's an obstacle that comes in your way, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Cynthia’s Journey

Me: Now, even though we ask our guests to provide us with a bio, which you did, amazingly, thank you so much. And we do read the bio at the beginning of the show so the audience has a good idea of who we're interviewing and what they’re about. We always like to give the guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today. Could you share that with us?

Cynthia shared that for her, it's an interesting story, she hoped it will be for the viewers as well. She actually started her career in broadcasting and was working in the TV business for about 13 and a half years. But she always had in the back of her mind that she wanted to own her own business. And she grew up in a family owned business so she saw her dad and how he worked and how much he loved what he did and his customers.

And so, one day when she got fired and her dad always said, “Honey, you're no one till someone fires you.” She decided that rather than go and work for another television station and she had some opportunities to do that, she decided she wanted to bet on herself. And so, that's how she started her business.

About Cynthia’s Book – Small Business. Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business

Me: Now, you have a new book that's being published in a few months, it's called Small Business. Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about that book that you have coming up? And maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book represents.

Cynthia shared that she really believes that the best way for people to learn about business is by storytelling. And so, the book has not only her story, but stories of entrepreneurs and experts from all over the country. And frankly, that's what makes it so interesting because we all have stories to tell. But she’s segmented the book into stages and it is starting up, because the challenges at starting up are very different than the challenges for those who are in second stage or mature businesses.

And then she looks at success at operations because she thinks many small businesses, that's a place that's very difficult for them is to really figure out how to become operationally excellent.

And then success at growth because if we don't grow, we're actually going backwards.

And then finally success at stepping out. And someone asked her, “Well, why cover such a broad expanse in one business? Why not just talk out starting up or stepping out?”

And she said, when you take a look at the whole lifecycle of a business, if you understand that, especially at starting up, and you think about where do you want to end up? Are you growing a lifestyle business? Or are you growing a business to sell it?

If you are in a growth phase, what do you need to really think about? Sometimes it's digging back into what made you successful at start-up and visioning the future? And then also thinking about what kind of legacy do you want?

So, for her covering that expanse and she’s been in business now over 35 years, so she’s been through many phases of the business. She thinks has been reflective for her to kind of look at each one of those.

And there's lots of things that she talks about, she’s talked about customers, it's so important that we understand customers and customer services, it doesn't matter if you run a retail operation or a manufacturing plant or a technology company. But she thinks understanding customers, that's a big overarching theme.

Communications is huge, because it impacts so much of our business, and then also leadership, what does it take to lead a successful enterprise?

One Characteristic That Entrepreneurs Need to Survive Downturns in an Economy

Me: So, lots of very critical components that you mentioned in the book to running a business. Now, I know you told us about the overarching themes that the book represents and in your summary just now, you mentioned that you've been in business for 35 years, so you've been through, if not all, well, definitely all phases of a business over 35 years I'm sure. Not to mention the different experiences that your businesses would have had as it relates to the different travesties that the world had gone through, so the pandemic and before that the recession in 2008. So, you'd have had different experiences that different economies would have experienced, that the world experienced. If you were to pick, let's say, one characteristic that you believe was critical for you to ride the waves over all those years to the point where you are today, what do you believe that would be?

Cynthia stated that that one is easy for her. And she thinks this is something that people don't think about a lot, but it's passion. You have to have passion for what you do. If you don't have passion, you cannot survive all of the challenges that you have. She has experienced at least two downturns in the economy and COVID, obviously was huge. But if you don't love what you do, if you don't get up every day, and say, “Wow, what can I do today to make this business better? What can I do today to serve my customers?”

If you don't have that passion, it's easy to get discouraged and she thinks it's easy to give up. And frankly, the businesses that she sees that kind of wither away, it's because they've lost that passion for what they do, it becomes routine and ordinary and in this world, especially in the world of business, you can't survive if it's just same old, same old, you must consistently innovate and to do that, you have to have passion.

Me: So, passion is a number one thing that was able to carry you through. Fantastic, thank you for sharing Cynthia.

Common Mistakes that Small Businesses Make and How to Avoid Them

Me: Now, Cynthia, I'm sure in running a business, there are some common mistakes that sometimes business owners will make, right, regardless of the type of business you're in, whether it's product based or service based. Based on your experience, what would you say are maybe five common mistakes that you find small businesses tend to get themselves into? And if you could give maybe a recommendation for each as to how they could prevent themselves from getting trapped into that common mistake?

Cynthia shared that she thinks the first one is not doing their homework. She thinks so often people believe they have a great idea or a great product, but they're somewhat clouded by their own bubble, by their own world. And so, one of the things that she will tell you is not doing your homework, not going out and saying to someone, not just do you like my idea, or do you like my product? But will you pay for it?

So, that's the first one. And the way that you really avoid that common mistake, quite frankly, is to do your research, and to go out and not be afraid to ask the questions. And sometimes she will tell you, she has put in place some efforts that she had to abandon because while she thought it was a great idea, she didn't maybe do enough of the homework to really understand if it was going to be successful. So, that'd be the first one.

And then the second one is financially, can you really withstand the pressures that it takes. So, when she started her business, the first six months, she didn't even take a salary. And she thinks that's very common for a lot of business owners is that they invest in their business. So, are you able to financially withstand what it takes to be able to get through those first really tough years? So, do you have the financing? Do you have the capital? Can you withstand that interim start-up period where you really need to make sure that you have a lot of cushion maybe is the right way to say it.

The third mistake that a lot of business owners make is that they take whatever customer comes to the door and she made that mistake when she first got started, she was so concerned about is she going to be able to pay the rent, that she maybe took customers that she shouldn't have taken because they didn't align with the goal and the core products and values that they had and that's a hard one is to say no to a customer. But if you're getting customers in the door that are taking up your time and taking up your energy and not going to help you move forward, then she thinks that that's a big mistake. And as a result of having made that mistake after she was in business for a while, she kind of had to send customers away and that's very difficult. So, having a good idea of who that ideal customer is and really knowing that.

She thinks communication is a big one. Frankly, she thinks communication is something that business owners don't really spend enough time on, they believe if they have a great product or a great service, that's enough and it's not. You have to be able to articulate your value, you have to be able to communicate that value to your employees because that's so critical because it's not just you, unless you're going to be a solopreneur, which is fine. But if you're going to build an organization, you have to be able to communicate with your employees, you have to be able to educate them, have them understand what the value is of the business, and then being able to communicate to customers. The number one complaint that customers have today is sometimes they lack the communication from businesses, even if it's simply, “I got your phone call and I got your order, and we'll get back to you.” But being able to communicate and being able to articulate is a big one.

And then she thinks the other mistake that she thinks a lot of small businesses make is they don't build an external team that can help them, because as a business owner, you're an expert in what you do, but that doesn't mean that you're an expert in all things.

And so, building that really critical team of outside resources, she likes to say who can keep you out of trouble because sometimes you get into trouble because you don't know enough. So, having that critical team of people that you can trust and can go to, she thinks that's it. So, those will be she thinks the five things that she would say are really important.

App, Website or Tool that Cynthia Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Cynthia shared that when she saw that question, she was like, there's lots of things she can't live without. Cynthia estimated that because of the business that she’s in, they have a tool, it's called Function Point that coordinates all of the efforts. In media production and in communications, consulting, there are so many pieces of every single job that all have to align and being able to track where something is and being able to understand who on the team is doing what, it's a communications tool.

Now, that may be one that it's for creative agencies, but there are other tools. SharePoint, she thinks is a fabulous tool for keeping people really focused. So much of what we do today, there are so many pieces of information and keeping it organized she thinks is the biggest nightmare or it can be the biggest advantage. So, some sort of a communication tool that allows you to track and be able to measure where you are is really critical.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Cynthia

When asked about books that has a great impact, Cynthia shared that there are two that she really loves. And the one is Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins and she’s read that book maybe twice and should go back and read it again. But the reason that she loves that book is that she thinks there is such a difference in just being good and really having a company and growing a company that is excellent. And she thinks today good is just the baseline, everyone expects if you're in business that you're good, but can you be great? So, that's one.

The other one that she really likes is The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen Covey. We as people sometimes think we're effective, but we might be missing something. So, those are two that she really loves. And she'll be honest, she hasn't been doing a lot of reading lately, mostly because she’s been doing a lot of writing, so, she’s been reading her own book. But she does have a list of other books coming up that she would like to read.

And then there's one other one that over the years she’s kind of steered people to and it's called Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Other Don’t by Simon Sinek. And she thinks so much of the success of organizations and businesses really rests with how effective is the leader, because the business takes on sort of the personality of the leader. So, that's a book that she always recommend because she thinks this idea of servant leadership is one that really can catapult an organization ahead.

Where Can We Find Cynthia Online

LinkedIn – Cynthia Kay

Website – www.cynthiakaybiz.com

Website – www.thinkck.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Cynthia Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Cynthia stated that it's interesting, there are so many quotes that she loves, but her father was a huge influence in her life and there's a quote that her dad always used to say when she faced adversity, and she was struggling and didn't know what to do and he would always say, “Do what's in your heart.” And she really believes that if you look inside, you often know the answer. And so, that's one that she always remember, her dad always said, do what's in your heart.

And his second favourite one was, “They can't pay you enough money to do a job you don't love.” And so, that's her second one.

Me: I love it. Is the second one attributed from your dad as well?

Cynthia said absolutely. He was a wonderful businessman. He ran a small business with his two brothers and so much of what she thinks, they learned, they learned by osmosis. She learned a lot about business by watching her dad.

Me: That's fantastic. So, thank you so much for sharing those two quotes, we'll definitely have them in the show notes of this episode.

As we wrap up our episode, we would just like to extend our deepest level of gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast today and sharing about your journey, a little bit about your new book that will be released in May of this year. For those of our listeners that would love to tap into that resource, we'll have Cynthia's contact information in the links for the show notes of the episode so you can definitely follow along and just be abreast of when the book is going to be released and the different platforms that it will be available on so thank you again, Cynthia for coming on and we wish you all the very best.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins

• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen Covey

• Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t by Simon Sinek

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
- Luisteren Nogmaals beluisteren Doorgaan Wordt afgespeeld...
- Later beluisteren Later beluisteren
224: Empowering Customer Connections: Insights and Innovations in Customer Experience with Serena Chan
12 mrt· Navigating the Customer Experience
Serena Chan is a Research Advocate at Dovetail with a background in exploratory and UX research. She plays a pivotal role in crafting memorable experiences for customers, advocating for them within the company and partnering with people who do research to build a community and best practices at Dovetail.

Before joining Dovetail, Serena held UX design research and product roles across various industries, including health tech, entertainment and social enterprises. Passionate about democratizing research, she champions the importance of prioritizing insights from customer-facing teams to drive the development of truly customer-centric products.

Serena holds an MBA in Design Strategy from California College of the Arts, though her academic journey started with a Bachelor of Science in Public Health. Her early career spanned roles in public health, during with which she was inspired by the intersection of design thinking and global health at a transformative conference.

A poet and community gatherer, Serena leverages storytelling at work and leisure to facilitate a more deeply connected, equitable, and regenerative future for all.

Questions

· Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey.

· Could you tell us a little bit about Dovetail and what your company does?

· Now, as a subject matter expert in the area of customer experience, could you give us maybe two or three, I would say areas that you believe organisations need to focus on as we continue to traverse through 2024 and beyond?

· If you were to pick one organisation, what would be, let's say two or three characteristics that they have that makes you loyal to them and keep going back over and over again?

· Now, could you also share with our audience, what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read that have had a big impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it's had a great impact on you.

· Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Serena’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey. I know I read your bio, and it kind of gives us a quick summary of the journey that you did have to get to where you are today, but we'd love to hear from you, in your own words, how is it that you got to where you are today?

Serena shared that one of the earliest jobs she’s ever had was in customer service, customer experience. So, she thinks that's been quite the through line in her career and why she’s also sort of excited to be here today.

Starting from her first job in private tutoring when she was just in high school, to volunteer work and working in customer service jobs, there's some element of being of service and working with people that she was always drawn to. And after graduating college, it led her into the world of health tech start-up and joining a customer success team for the very first time.

And for her, that was the first opportunity to really be that bridge between hearing their customer needs, and sharing that back with their product team, helping you have that informer product roadmap and innovation and business strategy. And working in that intersection, that hub really got her quite excited. So, that's kind of led her to continue to pursue her career from grad school to consulting and freelance work to now her work at Dovetail.

About Serena’s Company - Dovetail

Me: So, could you tell us a little bit about Dovetail and what your company does?

Serena shared that Dovetail is a leading customer insights hub, they work with lots of teams of folks, whether they're in user research, or product management, design, innovation, whether you're a software company, or they have some people also building physical products, some people building really large things in the world, like construction, machinery and things that are like tractors that farmers use to all kinds of software that we use in our day to day as well.

So, they are a platform where these teams are able to really harness the insights they're hearing from their customers, whether it's customer interviews or survey data, things ongoing like CSAT and NPS and sentiment and have that then inform better product and decision making across the business as well. So, the work she does at Dovetail is really closely partnering with their customer teams, and coaching them in best practices from onboarding and being successful in Dovetail to how they can further grow customer centricity and the culture of that at their organizations.

Areas Organizations Need to Focus on As it Relates to Customer Experience for 2024 and Beyond

Me: Now, as a subject matter expert in the area of customer experience, could you give us maybe two or three, I would say areas that you believe organizations need to focus on as we continue to traverse through 2024 and beyond?

Serena shared that we're all navigating so much change. And one thing that she always returned to is just talk to customers, it's easier said than done for a lot of people. In her role, she does work with customers in the day to day, so that makes her job a lot easier. But for other people who maybe it's not the majority of how they spend their days, it can be hard to really remember, oh, yeah, let me go and actually get in front of customers, if you can't talk to customers, that's kind of point one, than two like, really leverage the type of customer data you already have. So, honestly, most of the people at their company who are talking the most customers are sales, customer success and support.

And so, their product managers and their designers, they'll talk to customers, but they also try to go within their Dovetail workspace and pull from the interviews that they've already had, the customer calls their sales team has already had, the support tickets that have come through. So, if you can't go and talk to customers immediately yourself, then draw from those who are talking to your customers day in day out, that was kind of step two.

And then point number three is really trying to kind of complete the loop, she’s really lucky that their customers are also some of the best at giving feedback and sharing their insights and their requests, because they're also people in the space of customer experience. And so, trying to really complete that loop and try to bring them along the journey. They're trying to do more ways of running early beta and alpha kind of programmes to test new things. They're building up Dovetail, they're also trying to co design and really do more kind of participatory type of practices with their customers, bring them along the journey and have them be part of that process.

So, really, those three steps, talk to customers, the second, talk to the people who do talk to your customers, and also leverage the existing data you do have. And then the third being kind of complete that loop and really make sure you're integrating the feedback you're hearing into your product and business decisions, and then share it back to your customers, because they're always super appreciative to hear that you're taking the feedback and how quickly they're moving and iterating on that.

Me: Now, I heard you mention in your feedback just know in terms of the three areas that you believe organization should focus on, that you are blessed to have customers who are very willing and able to give feedback. I'm not sure if that's cultural, but if you could maybe just give us a little insight.

What if you are in a culture where it's hard to collect feedback from customers?

It's not very easy, they don't voluntarily give it to you and even when you intentionally seek it out, it's hard to kind of pin them down to get the information that you need from them.

What would be your best recommendation to approach if you're in a business like that?

Serena shared that think about kind of what are those first points of contact? Is it that someone is hearing about you through some marketing channels, or maybe they're talking to someone in the sales process, even those are important touch points and opportunities for insights, especially if you're trying to understand your customers motivations, their desires, she thinks those are actually some really powerful touch points that we can leverage more in general.

Of course, there are teams that go out and do proactive research, whether it's user research or usability testing, things like that. And they tend to rely a lot on that. But there's also so much room to lean on people in other functions as well who are talking to customers day in day out. And even if they're not existing customers, talking to prospectives is really helpful, too.

So, she learned a lot from sitting in with their sales team and understanding the needs and desires of their prospective customers and seeing how can they currently serve them?

Where are the gaps and opportunities?

And then how can she bring that back to their product team, their leadership team and say, “Actually, these are the current needs we're hearing from people, people who are interested in buying our software, or have similar visions and wanting to really grow customers centricity and these are the things they are asking for, which we may or may not have at the moment yet.”

So, she thinks these are some other kind of creative ways to talk to people who, unless you have a completely sales process where no one's talking to anyone, then that's maybe on the more rare side, but you probably have someone that's talking to your customers.

And then also, her bias too is in the onboarding process, they have a pretty hands off approach as well, you can definitely self-serve and leverage Dovetail Academy and kind of learn at your own pace. But then they also do have a team of customer success managers, and that's kind of where she started at Dovetail was actually in customer success.

And they work with so many customers in the onboarding process and that's also so much wisdom to learn what are your customers understanding, what is harder for them to understand, what are the common questions and challenges and pain points that are.

In many ways, empowering their customer success folks to basically be like their frontline design researchers in a way, they're the ones who are often closest to the day to day pain points, as well as their support team that their customers are facing.

So yeah, really explore kind of what are some ways you're already your current company is already talking to customers and try to get closer to those people sit in, sit along on their calls or watch the calls if they have that uploaded into a central place.

Characteristics of a Loyal Organization

Me: Now, Serena, as a customer, right, so I want you to kind of take yourself out of the role that you're functioning, providing service, but more so service being provided to you. If you were to pick one organization, and it's up to you if you'd like to share the organization, but I’m more focused on the traits or the attributes that the company has, if you were to choose one company that you really, really love? What would be, let's say two or three characteristics that they have that makes you loyal to them and keep going back over and over again?

Serena stated that she loves this question. For her, what's funny is actually, the farmers market came to mind, which isn't necessarily a company in a traditional sense, it's maybe more like a gathering place, a marketplace. But it's a place she loves and she thinks about why she loves it. And there's some amount of structure, you go and you know what to expect, you know what vendors are generally there but you also have options, you have a specific time and place as well. And for her, it's also this sense of community and kind of community gathering place, that's actually a big thing they're working to invest in and grow at Dovetail as well as how do they actually build a gathering place for people in research and design and product to come and gather and learn from each other. And she thinks that's a huge opportunity for a lot of companies to leverage that within their customer base.

So, for her, she personally as a customer really enjoy being able to just meet other people in a very casual sense and feel that sense of community, whether at a farmers market, they're her neighbours, or as someone in like a customer experience kind of space like that similar to maybe conferences or virtual or in person meetups and events that vendors or companies may hold. So, leveraging that aspect of community, and then also having an element of discovery. There's some things that she knows and she can rely on and there's some elements of novelty that also keep her coming back. So, that's what comes to mind for her.

App, Website or Tool that Serena Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Serena shared that she’s going to take it from a bit more of a personal approach to how she shows up in her work. And for her, it can be any kind of app, but for her, it's like a mindfulness practice app and tool, she sees that as very much a part of her professional toolkit.

She personally have really enjoyed the open app recently. And why she says this is because so much of the work she does is to witness and listen to their customers, to facilitate workshops, whether with customers or internally.

And she thinks so often, especially in the start-up world we’re really quick to want to fix things and want to solve things and iterate and pivot and all of that. And that's great, and it's necessary and it's important to move quickly. But if we're not taking the moment to pause and to truly listen and understand what it is our customers are sharing with us, and also how the greater industry and world is shifting to, then we can't do all the rest or it'll kind of be done in a haphazard way.

So for her, actually, her mindfulness practice, her kind of deep listening and meditation practice is a core part of how she shows up in her work and with her customers and also in holding space as she facilitates internally with her teammates as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Serena

When asked about books that have had an impact, Serena shared that she really loves Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert, this is a book all about the art of creative living. And for her, it has impacted both her professional and personal lives. And really the kind of one liner from it is like, “What is creative living, it's a life that is more driven by curiosity than by fear.”

She thinks one of her strengths and being able to navigate a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity, especially in the start-up world, is her ability to kind of lean into curiosity, and not just operate out of reactivity or fear or all of that.

And so, the more we're able to flex that and lean into curiosity when we're trying to understand our customers, lean into curiosity when there's a workplace challenge, or a product issue that comes up, lean into curiosity in terms of crafting our own careers and lives. This is kind of how we can apply that creative energy into how we show up in the day to day. So many of the listeners are deeply creative people whether or not you identify as an artist or designer or capital C creative person, but she thinks we as humans are deeply creative and the more we can channel that kind of energy, the better we are able to show up for our customers and our businesses and our communities and for the society as a whole.

What Serena is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about, Serena shared that she recently adopted a dog so she’s newly a dog mom. He is actually napping, napping right next to me right now! And something she’s learning is you never really know how it goes when you are trying to love and care and train a rescue dog.

He's brought so much joy into her life, he's brought a lot of wonderful trail runs and play and novelty and exploration. And she’s also lucky to have a dog friendly office so she brings him into work as well. And they like to joke that he's the Chief Vibes Officer. He's also bringing a lot of joy at work too, so in many ways, even though he is such a personal part of her life, he is also really helping her also build better bonds with her colleagues and he'll also show up in the back of a meeting room as she’s on a customer call.

And so, sometimes she thinks even just remembering like, we're all humans, we are all trying our best, and people will see her dog and kind of, it just creates that kind of human connection. So, it's been a very special time and she’s learning so much every day and celebrating all their little and big milestones as they go and that helps her remind herself of her capacity to keep growing and learning and adapting to change.

Where Can We Find Serena Online

LinkedIn – Serena Chan

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Serena Uses

When asked about quote that she tends to revert to, Serena shared that for her, it's “Ride the waves.” She’s a beginner surfer herself, but someone who's grown up swimming her whole life, so the water is a really restorative place for her but also challenging. She lives in San Francisco pretty close to Ocean Beach and these are some gnarly waves they get out there. And much with the tumultuous lives and professional worlds we live in and the changing world, sometimes all we can do is just show up and practice riding the waves and enjoying when things are calm, but also learning even when it feels stormy, we can get through it and just keep riding the waves.

Me: Well, thank you so much Serena for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast, sharing all of these great insights as it relates to customer experience, some of the things that you believe organizations need to be focusing on for 2024 and beyond. And of course, all the great things that your organization is doing. And we just really appreciate you taking time to share all of this great insight with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert

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