Afleveringen
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What if the obsession with tracking KPIs is actually preventing public services from delivering real outcomes?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Toby Lowe, a leading academic and steward of the Human Learning Systems movement. Toby explains why the traditional model of setting targets and performance managing for outcomes is fundamentally broken, and how a Human Learning Systems approach can reshape public services around trust, complexity and continuous improvement.
Drawing on decades of research and his own early frustrations as an arts charity chief executive, Toby argues that using outcomes as performance targets inevitably leads to data manipulation and systemic gaming rather than genuine impact. He shares striking examples from the VW Dieselgate scandal to an £80 million public service contract in Plymouth with zero KPIs to show how shifting the focus from "delivery" to "learning relationships" can drastically improve citizens' lives, even reducing avoidable deaths. This is a deep dive into complexity science, the libertarian roots of modern management theory, and how leaders can liberate their teams to do the work that actually matters.
In this conversation, we explore:
Why 40 years of research proves that outcomes-based performance management universally leads to data gaming and lyingThe moment of frustration in youth criminal justice that turned Toby away from traditional outcomes frameworksThe VW Dieselgate scandal and the inherent danger of relying on proxy measuresWhy an obesity systems map proves that governments cannot "deliver" complex outcomes aloneThe libertarian origins of Public Choice Theory and how James Buchanan sought to delegitimise the welfare stateHow to build an alternative management paradigm centred on mastery, autonomy, and purposeHow the Plymouth Alliance eliminated KPIs entirely and slashed avoidable deaths over a decadeWhy data becomes more important, not less, in a Human Learning Systems approachHow Liverpool Combined Authority broke a low-trust cycle to transition into commissioning for learningToby's secret life as a hobbyist DJ and the exact complexity book he recommends mostThis episode is especially relevant for:
Public sector leaders, commissioners, and chief executivesLocal government directors and policy professionalsSystems-change practitioners and complexity theoristsService designers and voluntary sector managers trying to solve complex human problemsStay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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What if we organised an entire council around building social connection?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Tony Clements, Chief Executive of Ealing Council. Tony explains why he's placed social connection at the heart of the council's purpose, and how a Connected Communities approach is reshaping everything from children's services to emergency management.
Drawing on the evidence that loneliness can be worse for health than smoking, Tony argues that local government has a unique locus to build the relationships and community resilience that transactional services alone can't deliver. He shares how Ealing achieved its lowest-ever number of children in care by investing in kinship networks, why emergency management teams are treating the community as the real first responder, and what it takes to shift thousands of daily interactions toward building connection.
This is a deep dive into relational leadership, complexity and why the language of KPIs and "clarity" often gets in the way of the work that matters most.
In this conversation, we explore:
Why the evidence on social connection rarely reaches public policyHow kinship networks are reducing the number of children in careWhy emergency response depends on community resilience firstThe limits of KPIs in relational, complex workHow to balance short-term savings with long-term transformationWhy the bar for change is higher than the bar for the status quoThe bravery it takes to stop doing good thingsWhat AI tools are actually changing inside a councilThe chief executive as "rewilder" of the systemThis episode is especially relevant for:
Public sector leaders and chief executivesLocal government commissioners and directorsPolicy and systems-change professionalsService designers working on complex, human problemsStay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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What happens when a consultant surgeon embeds agile ways of working into the messy reality of an NHS operating theatre?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Rob McAdam, a Consultant Upper GI and Bariatric Surgeon who also happens to be a qualified Scrum Master. Rob is a rare example of a practitioner who hasn't just read the theory - he has spent years embedding agile ways of working into the heart of the NHS.
For Rob, the "stable team", the "prioritised backlog" and the "retrospective" aren't just agile buzzwords - they directly map onto the most important parts of surgical practice. In this deep dive, we explore how he moved his department away from rigid, linear planning and toward a model that values human collaboration over top-down protocols.
Rather than asking clinicians to work harder inside a rigid system, this work asks a different question: What if we trusted teams to redesign how the work gets done?
In this conversation, we explore:
Why the pandemic forced a shift to 24-hour sprints - and what was lost when things "returned to normal"How a theatre list already resembles a Scrum team, and what that unlocksWhy traditional list planning produces garbage-in, garbage-out resultsWhat surgical story points look like in practice, and how they've increased capacity without burning people outHow proper retrospectives surface the invisible frictions a debrief never catchesA real example of a tiny AI-assisted fix that's now spreading across an NHS trustWhy "the HIPPO effect" still shapes medicine - and how Agile challenges itHow psychological safety and team-led improvement could transform frontline NHS deliveryThis episode is especially relevant for:
Clinicians, surgeons and NHS leadersPublic sector commissioners and service designersContinuous improvement and transformation teamsAnyone working on adaptive, team-led change in complex systemsStay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Is your local authority missing its "hidden cohort" for free school meals?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Myles Bremner (Bremner & Co.) who has spent over a decade at the heart of school food policy. They confront the "crazy bureaucracy" standing between children and free school meals, and share how working with teams in Devon and Tower Hamlets has already put £12 million in pupil premium funding back into schools across the UK.
What you’ll learn:
The Hidden Cohort: How to identify the thousands of eligible pupils currently missing out on vital support.The £12 Million Impact: Why fixing the registration process for free school meals is the fastest way to secure pupil premium funding.The September Deadline: Navigating upcoming changes to transitional protection and what they mean for your Local Authority.Data as a Force for Good: How local data officers are cutting through red tape to automate enrolment.Partnership Wins: Why honest conversations between councils and schools deliver more than working in silos.Take Action on FSM: How is your team preparing for the policy changes this September? We are currently helping a select cohort of Local Authorities automate their FSM systems.
Explore the FSM Hub: https://basis.co.uk/free-school-meals/
Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Can you actually lead a complex system if you never leave the boardroom?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Geeta Subramaniam-Mooney, Director for Environment and Climate Change at Hackney Council.
Geeta is local government through and through. With more than 25 years in the public sector, she has an eclectic mix of experience, areas she has delivered within and been responsible. From directly working with children at risk and criminal justice services experienced children to cross corporate and partnership services. She knits together people and place-based services. In her current role she is responsible for environmental services, streetscene, public realm, safety and climate change.
In this conversation, Geeta speaks honestly about what leadership really looks like in complex systems. It’s not about having all the answers, or being the technical expert in the room. It’s about humility, asking the right questions, building trust, and staying close to the communities you serve. Her message is quietly powerful: lasting change happens through relationships. Through genuine participation. And through leaders who are willing to take the less trodden path - even when it feels slower or harder.
What you’ll take away from this episode:
Why leadership is about breadth - the balcony as well as being close to the dancefloorThe role sponsorship plays in supporting others in their journeysWhat local government taught us during COVID about speed, adaptability and courageWhat meaningful co-production with communities really requiresWhy creativity, play and humour can unlock better solutionsWhy relationships matter more than frameworks, tools or methodsGeeta also reflects on resilience, both personal and organisational, and why supporting people through emotionally demanding work is essential. Supporting staff enables everyone to be valued and able to bring their best selves to their roles, and build public services that are sustainable now and into the future. If you care about social justice, community and organisational resilience, and leadership grounded in humanity rather than hierarchy, this conversation is worth your time.
Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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What happens when you stop being "the boss" and start treating your team like they actually matter?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Helen Sanderson to discuss the radical experiment of Wellbeing Teams. Helen walked away from a traditional CEO role to prove that "Self-Management" isn't just a buzzword, it’s a way to save lives.
By ditching CVs for "Heart," writing "Scare Away Letters" to find the right people, and replacing rigid rules with trust, her team achieved something impossible: They were 5 times (500%) less likely to see their patients admitted to the hospital.
If you’ve ever felt like a "cog in a machine" or wondered if there’s a kinder way to lead, this story is for you.
In this episode, we explore:
The "Scare Away Letter": Why being radically honest about the "bad parts" of a job builds the best teams.Hiring for Heart: Why Helen stopped looking at CVs and started looking for "mattering."The 50x Result: The data-backed proof that relational working outperforms traditional "Time and Task" management.The "Boss" Trap: How Helen learned to give up control to find real psychological safety.The Bitter Truth: Why an "Outstanding" rated team had to close down because the system wasn't ready for it.Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Can love actually be a legitimate—and measurable—policy goal for public services?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Carly Glover, founder and former CEO of Jersey Cares, to explore the profound impact of love, advocacy, and human connection within the care system. Drawing from her transformative work in Jersey and Scotland, Carly shares how shifting from a transactional "Victorian model" to a relational approach can fundamentally change lives for those with care experience.
Key discussion points:
The Foundation of Jersey Cares: How a diverse "band of unusual suspects", from Chief Ministers to community leaders, came together in a noisy Portuguese cafe to redefine advocacy.The Power of Love in Policy: Why the core mission of "children in care should be loved" became the non-negotiable golden thread that influenced government practice.Brutalising vs. Tender Environments: Carly discusses how high-pressure, back-to-back professional schedules can "brutalise" staff, making it difficult to deliver "tender" services to vulnerable families.The Promise Scotland: Insights into the radical commitment to ensure all care-experienced children are loved, safe, and respected by 2030.Ceding Power & Agency: A look at why public services must stop "pretending" to have total control and instead empower individuals to exert their own agency.Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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How do we make sure the people most in need don't keep falling through the cracks?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Ron Charlton, Data and Information Lead at Changing Futures Northumbria. Ron explains why transactional, target-driven public services fail people with multiple disadvantages, and how a relational, human-centred approach can transform outcomes while reducing crisis demand.
Drawing on decades of frontline policing and system leadership, Ron shares how rehumanising data, using bottom-up, real-world information instead of abstract metrics, brings leaders closer to reality and enables better decision-making across public services.
This is a deep dive into relational practice, systems change, and why traditional performance frameworks often create harm rather than help.
In this conversation, we explore:
Why referrals and assessments often fail people with complex needsHow relational practice outperforms transactional service modelsWhat “rehumanising data” actually looks like in practiceHow lived experience and shared power change outcomesWhy psychological safety matters for learning and innovationHow relational approaches reduce crisis demand across systemsRather than asking people to fit into broken systems, this work asks a different question: What if we redesigned services around people, not process?
This episode is especially relevant for:
Public sector leaders and commissionersPolicy and systems-change professionalsPractitioners working with complex needsData, insight and service design teamsStay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Is your transformation team just a PMO function in disguise?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Ayesha Hakim Rahman to discuss her 10-year journey from the voluntary sector to leading transformation across London boroughs like Tower Hamlets and Bexley.
Ayesha challenges the status quo, arguing that transformation is far more than just PMO or governance - it is about curiosity, impact, and challenging the phrase "this is how it’s always been". We explore how to move from tick-box consultation to honest community engagement, why we need to stop using the term "hard to reach," and the vital role of Agile methodology in the public sector. Whether you work in the public sector, service design, or change management, this conversation offers practical insights on building resilience, using data effectively, and the power of "intelligent risk-taking".
What we cover:
From Community to Strategy: Ayesha’s transition from the third sector to local government and how living in the borough she worked in changed her perspective on decision-making.Redefining Engagement: The regeneration project success story and why honesty about what residents can and cannot influence is crucial for trust.Transformation vs. PMO: Why confusing Project Management Offices with Transformation is a mistake, and how to spot the difference.Agile in Government: Moving away from "As-Is" and "To-Be" waterfall planning toward testing, learning, and delivery sprints.Leadership Growth: Ayesha’s personal goal to become a "patient leader" and learning from the friction of past projects.Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Can we design services that are genuinely relation, or are we just making bureaucracy slightly more efficient?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Virginie Clarke, a service design lead working at the heart of local government to make services more human by putting people and relationships first.
What you’ll learn:
How Virginie’s background in performance and theatre helped shape her approach to service design.Why holding space, reading the room, and modelling vulnerability are critical facilitation skills.What it takes to build trust with people facing complex challenges—and with the staff supporting them.How the Havelock project is building something better from the ground up by listening, adapting and acting.What it really means to design relational services in practice.Virginie’s story - pivoting into local government during the pandemic, building a new team, and learning by doing, shows that creating better public services isn’t about perfect plans, but about people, relationships, and staying open to what works.
Join the mission:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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Why does public service reform usually fail, and what does it take to actually do it right?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Mark Smith, Visiting Professor of Public Service Innovation, former Director of Public Service Reform at Gateshead Council, and one of the UK’s most experienced thinkers and doers in relational public services.
It’s two hours long. And yes, we know - your calendar’s already full. But if you're working in public services and trying to move to a more relational way of working, we promise: it's two hours well spent.
What you’ll take away:
Why change fails when it ignores lived experiences - and what to do insteadThe mindset shift from delivery to learningHow to lead transformation without relying on top-down blueprintsPractical lessons from policing, housing, health, HR, and moreIt’s grounded, generous, and full of the kind of insight you only get from someone who’s been in the thick of it for decades.
Join the mission:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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How can we balance the need for structure with the flexibility required for human connection?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Meilys Heulfryn, a leader driving change in social care and health by focusing on relationships over rigid systems.
What you’ll learn:
Why understanding people’s real experiences is the key to effective service design.How relational approaches help move beyond transactional, process-driven public services.The balance between structure and adaptability—and why both are essential for meaningful change.Why change isn’t about having all the answers upfront, but about learning and adapting along the way.Meilys’ career journey - from accountancy to leading transformation - offers a fresh perspective on why public services need to prioritise human connection over bureaucracy.
Join the mission:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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What does 40 years at the heart of public service teach you about truly sustaining change?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Tracy McKim, Head of People, Policy and Transformation at Newport City Council, reflecting on 40 years of public service and the power of relational approaches to service design.
What you’ll learn:
Why relationships are at the heart of sustainable change.How starting small and learning through action creates lasting impact.The role of trust and collaboration in solving complex challenges.Whether you're passionate about public services, service design, or driving meaningful change, this conversation is packed with practical insights and inspiration.
Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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What happens when you stop treating residents as "customers" and start treating them like partners?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Rob Comber, Head of Change and Transformation at Ealing Council. Rob discusses his journey in local government, exploring innovative approaches to tackling complex social challenges by prioritising relational service design and building genuine connections.
What you’ll learn:
Why involving residents in service design leads to sustainable solutionsHow to create a culture of trust and collaboration in public sector teamsThe importance of experimenting with new methods like agile and human-centred designInsights on transforming transactional services into relational, community-centred supportWhether you’re a public sector leader, a change-maker, or someone passionate about making an impact, this conversation is packed with practical advice and inspiring reflections.
Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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How do you deliver relational services within a rigid corporate hierarchy?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Andrew Rostom, Head of Change (Corporate) at Haringey Council, where he shares his 20 year journey as a pioneer of public service transformation. Andrew opens up about the challenges and rewards of creating relational services that truly respond to community needs. He discusses innovative approaches like agile methods and human-centred design, and how these have helped build more responsive and effective public services.
What you’ll learn:
How building relational services can transform the way we support communitiesThe importance of empowering frontline staff to solve real problemsWhy prototyping and learning from failure can lead to breakthrough solutionsHow to tackle complex, multi-departmental issues with creativity and resilienceWhether you’re working in the public sector or looking for inspiration on leading change in complex environments, this conversation is packed with insights and practical advice.
Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
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What does it take to actually deliver real impact in local government?
In this episode, Joe sits down with Tom Alexander, formerly Head of Change for People Services at Haringey Council, where they dive deep into the challenges and opportunities of driving meaningful change in the public sector. From navigating complex societal problems to the importance of ethical decision-making and genuine community engagement, Tom offers invaluable insights drawn from his extensive experience in local government.
What you’ll learn:
Why going directly to the source is essential for effective changeThe role of adaptive leadership in today’s challenging public sector environmentHow to balance data-driven decisions with real human impactThe importance of listening to diverse voices and being willing to pivot when necessaryWhether you’re a leader in public services or simply passionate about making a difference, this conversation is packed with actionable advice and thought-provoking reflections.
Stay connected:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk
