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As many Jews deepen their sense of Jewish identity, Dr. Mijal Bitton joins the podcast to explore the significance of our Jewish heritage, texts, and peoplehood and what it means as we enter the Hanukkah season. Bitton is a sociologist, storyteller, podcast host, and Jewish advocate who also serves as the spiritual leader of the Downtown Minyan in Manhattan.
As one of the first Sacks Scholars, she helps young people reclaim and reimagine Jewish traditions. In this week’s episode, Dr. Bitton discusses Sephardic Jewry, Jewish peoplehood, academia, the needs of young Jews, and the realities of intergroup and interfaith after October 7.
Resources:
The Morality and Ethics of Global Jewish Advocacy: Lessons from Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks - AJC Advocacy Anywhere
Jewish Unpacked - Wondering Jews podcast, with guest AJC CEO Ted Deutch
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
The Next Chapter in Catholic-Jewish Relations
What’s Next for the Abraham Accords Under President Trump?
Honoring Israel’s Lone Soldiers This Thanksgiving: Celebrating Service and Sacrifice Away from Home
The ICC Issues Arrest Warrants: What You Need to Know
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePodYou can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Mijal Bitton:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Dr. Mijal Bitton is a sociologist, storyteller and Jewish advocate. As the spiritual leader of the Downtown Minyan in Manhattan and one of the first Sacks Scholars, she helps young people reclaim and reimagine Jewish traditions.
Michal is no stranger to our AJC audiences. Earlier this month, she delivered a powerful Advocacy Anywhere to commemorate Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks, for which the Sacks Scholars are, of course named.
And as co-host of Jewish Unpacked’s podcast Wondering Jews, she and Jewish educator Noah Weisman explore questions we all ask about the Jewish experience, from the mundane to the miraculous. In fact, just recently, they interviewed AJC CEO Ted Deutch. The podcast has covered topics spanning from how summer camp shapes Jewish lives, how to constantly juggle joy and pain, the impact of the Jewish vote in the most recent election, and in turn, the impact of Trump's resulting victory on Jewish America.
Mijal is with us now in our Midtown Manhattan studio to rehash a little of that, but also to discuss what led her to take on her many roles, including her newest project. Mijal, welcome to People of the Pod.
Mijal Bitton:
Thank you, thank you for having me.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you could please share with our listeners about your heritage, about your upbringing. You were born in Argentina, correct?
Mijal Bitton:
I was born in Argentina. My father's family moved to Argentina from Morocco and Syria. My mother is from Spain. And part of what shaped my interest in Jews from the Middle East and North Africa, is that when we moved to America, we moved to a Persian Jewish community. So that was like my introduction to American Jews, this very tight knit Persian community in Long Island.
Eventually, I met my husband, who is a Syrian Jew, with Egyptian and Iraqi background, and I wrote my PhD on the Syrian Jewish community in Brooklyn, which all just shows you a little bit my fascination. It's not just an identity, it's a tradition that I draw from and that I believe can actually give us very powerful tools right now.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Now, is this a Syrian Jewish community from Aleppo or Damascus?
Mijal Bitton:
Historically, there is a big difference. I would say that a lot of these communities, you can think of them as pre-immigration and then new settlement in America. Right now in America, it's one community. The differences between Aleppo and Damascus are not that pronounced, maybe like when you cook a little bit the recipe that you use, or slightly different songs that you might have, depending where your family is from.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You are, in fact, a visiting researcher at NYU, and you are the director of the National Study of the Sephardic and Mizrahi in the United States. What is that study all about?
Mijal Bitton:
Yeah. So when I wanted to do a PhD at NYU, which I did, on Syrian Jews, and I wanted to study Sephardic Jews, what I realized very quickly, and you might have seen this from your other podcast, is that there is very little good scholarship, good literature to explain to us who these Jews are. This is a problem, both in terms of historical research, and for me, I'm really interested in contemporary Jewish life.
There was a huge gap of not having resources to understand Sephardic Jews in the United States. So I had to do my PhD, kind of trying to reconstruct, you know, even, like the categories of study, how do we think about Jewish observance and really religiosity with Jews from the Middle East. So this study is an early attempt by early I mean, we hope it's the first of many studies to begin to tease out the main pillars of what we need to know to understand Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews roughly.
And again, we'll go into this more in the actual report, which will come out in a couple of months, roughly 10% of American Jews are Sephardic or Mizrahi, very similar to, let's say, the Orthodox Jewish population, the Russian-speaking Jewish population, but much less understood, much less studied. So it's an important first attempt to begin to lay out the foundations of knowledge.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So would you say that study is overdue?
Mijal Bitton:
Yes, very much overdue. I think it's overdue for many reasons. One of them is that in the American Jewish community we've had for many years now, conversations around diversity, around inclusion and the like. And Sephardic Jews have not really been part of this conversation. Or let me say this with more precision, they have not been part of this conversation in terms that they would want to be part of this conversation. Maybe I'll be a little bit more explicit as to what I mean.
Many of the Jews that we've cited that I know tend to reflect more socially conservative, Middle Eastern forms of Jewish life, and these communities don't fit in very neatly in diversity efforts that tend to align with progressive understandings of diversity. So that means that there's been a real gap in how Sephardic Jews are included or not included in many spaces that are trying to be more inclusive. So we really believe that diversity is not easy, and that it begins with listening and understanding, who are the individuals and communities that we want to include.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I mean, how does kind of a deeper and broader knowledge of one's Jewish identity, one's Jewish history, how does your deeper and broader knowledge of your identity and history help you be a better advocate? And how can it help others be better Jewish advocates?
Mijal Bitton:
That's a great question. So you know, you mentioned before that I started a weekly Jewish wisdom Substack. It's called Committed and I'll be grateful to share the link with everyone. The first piece that I wrote there on Genesis was actually about Jewish pride, and it was an idea that I had been thinking for a long time about, and it was that, especially since October 7, I have been in all of these spaces with people who are newly reawakened, energized, outraged about what's been happening. And they speak constantly about the need for Jewish pride, Jewish pride. We need more Jewish pride, more Jewish pride, more Jewish pride.
And on the one hand, I love that. I love that awakening. It resonates with me strongly. On the other hand, I had like this little voice whispering to me, because, as a sociologist, I've actually done research that talks about pride as something, I want to try to say this carefully, as something that is sometimes the last thing a group holds on to before assimilating fully.
So in very simplistic terms, if you think about Italian Americans or Irish Americans right over three or four generations in this country, they will slowly lose a lot of their communal elements. They will move away from their neighborhoods. They will stop only cooking Italian food. They will stop working in certain professions. But they will still have a little bit of that Irish pride in St Patrick's Day.
So I have been concerned when we speak about Jewish pride, that Jewish pride can be seen as unsustainable if we don't know what we are proud of. There is a world of a difference between someone who says there's something here, that seems really good, and I think I'm proud. I'm proud. And it's different that if you're standing there and you say, I am proud of a heritage spanning 1000s of years, I stand on the shoulders of giants. I am continuing a legacy of Jews who have survived persecutions, who've survived assimilation, who've survived living in different countries and in different times, and I am holding all of this when I stand up as a Jew.
That, to me, is the kind of confident pride that can help us as advocates when we are facing challenges, because we are facing challenges and we're going to continue to face challenges. So we desperately need that sense of Jewish history, that sense of spiritual sustenance. We have to know what we are proud of, what we are fighting for.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You wrote a piece shortly after October 7, and it was titled, The Pain You're Feeling is Peoplehood. And it was incredibly powerful. It went viral. Because it so perfectly captured what so many Jews were feeling at that moment. And for those who haven't read it, can you share what led you to write it and kind of summarize it for our listeners.
Mijal Bitton:
I lead a community, I’m the spiritual leader of a community called the Downtown Minyan. And like many spiritual leaders and clergy on that Simchat Torah. I had to, you know, I'm not saying anything new. Here I was, I was heartbroken, reeling. I don't use a phone on Shabbat didn't always happening. My family in Israel, the reports that were coming in, I felt like my soul, my heart was being ripped. I think many of us felt this. And I had a Shul to run, and I had to figure out, like, what Jewish wisdom can I use right now? And it was very primal and instinctive.
There was a teaching that I had taught before because I thought it was important, but at that moment, it felt essential, and it just like, came out. I stood in front of my community who were in pain, and I wanted to give them names to explain what was happening. And I described, I use a very famous teaching by Rav Soloveichik, who speaks about who asked the question, can we still speak of ourselves as Jewish people, even with all of our diversity and differences and disagreements?
And it brings up a Talmudic question about, if you have a man of two heads, is this considered one person or two? And it's a complicated question, if you take it seriously, and he offers a gruesome test to figure this out. You pour boiling water on one head, and then you look at the other, and if it cries out in pain, it is one people. If it doesn't, it is two. The reason that this teaching was important for me to say, and I think the reason you said it went viral is because, you know. I haven't said this like this before, so I am expressing this now, thinking with you. I think for very long, for us Jews in America, we have been pushed and compelled to think of Judaism along Protestant religious terms.
What I mean by this, it's a faith, it's a set of beliefs, it's a value system. It has to fit in like some universalistic framework, and that pain that we felt on October 7 was different. It was a reminder that to be a Jew is to be part of a family. That it doesn't matter how different we are from each other, how much we disagree. When your relative is in pain, you cry with them. And it's almost like that pain, to me was like a way of saying we are reminded that we're part of a family. And there's something. I don't have the right words here. There's something almost to treasure about the pain, because it reminds us that we are connected to each other, committed to each other, responsible for each other.
And I think we all felt it, and it took away some of the layers of conditioning that many of us have had, to pretend like we aren’t a family. That's what I think was one of the things that were so powerful about the tragedy that we all experienced.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Yeah, because we're so trained to be individuals, right, especially here in America, right, that individual spirit, and that's, that's not part of peoplehood. Or is it? I don’t know. Maybe that’s not the point.
Mijal Bitton:
Yeah, listen, I think our tradition is amazing and complex, and there's strands of faith that brings up individualism and agency, but there's powerful strengths that talk about us as a family, as a collective, as a tribe, and there's powerful elements in our culture that have been pushing against that. And in many parts of our community, I think we drank the Kool Aid and we said we are not like, you know, that's backwards. That's not who we are anymore.
And then we were reminded that there's something there that we all felt was true. It existed before October 7, but I think October 7 kind of like woke it up. When I've shared this metaphor of the two headed men with people, many of them have offered an objection, and they've said, how awful is it for us to speak about who we are based on antisemitism? It shouldn't have to be like that. But, I mean, I would agree with that critique on theoretical terms. On sociological human terms, there is nothing that is more potent than having a shared enemy, a shared tragedy. Think about a family again, how tragedy brings us together.
So I think that unfortunately, the fact that there is still antisemitism vibrant in our societies and our streets has served to continue to reinforce that initial sense that we had after October 7. Of course, there are rifts. We can talk about debates that are happening. We are not as united as right after the tragedy. But, you know, I wrote a piece for CNN basically saying that the virulent anti semitism in the anti-Zionist movement is creating more Zionists. It's creating more Jewish solidarity. And it hasn't gone away.
I am a religious woman. When I pray to God, I ask God that God should give us the challenge of having to remain connected in good times. I prefer that, but being that we don't have that right now, I do think that we have to double down on what our response is.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You wrote another piece for CNN that had to do with the anti-Israel protests on university campuses and the fear that it was inducing in so many Jewish young people, and the solidarity that was coming out of that.
So with that in mind, one thing that the Jewish communal world is experiencing, we're certainly seeing it here at AJC, is an influx in involvement. Not just solidarity, but activism and advocacy, people who want to be more involved. Have you given any thought to this influx, and whether or not the infrastructure is in place here in America especially, to kind of sustain that, that level of involvement and activism.
Mijal Bitton:
So one of the things that I've seen, and I'll be honest, that I'm still trying to understand it, but one of the things that I'm seeing is, there's, there's the thing called the organized Jewish community, okay? And it's a powerful ecosystem, you know, with lovers of power and influence. And I'm also privy, partially because of my work with young Jews, to a whole world of people who are wanting to be active, but who either don't have the access or the orientation to do so, you know, within the organized Jewish community
And for me, part of what's still missing are the bridges between these different ecosystems. There's all of these people who are active on social media, right? The world of influencers, there's these groups of young Jews who are creating pop up Shabbat dinners, like all over the place, and like creating new clubs to celebrate Shabbat with each other and Jewish identity. And there is a lot of energy there. And what I'm trying to figure out is, I'm thinking of this as almost two powerful ecosystems, and I think that they would both be more powerful if they're in better conversation with each other.
So that, to me, again, it's a little bit abstract. I'm still thinking it through. I am a scholar in residence at the Maimonides Fund, and this is one of the questions that I have right now in this post-October 7 world: what would it mean to better bridge between these different ecosystems?
Manya Brachear Pashman:
We just talked about the campus protests and the solidarity that they fuel, and we've also talked about the lack of research and scholarship out there about Jews in the Middle East and and North Africa and the diversity of the Jewish community. Do you think if young people had a better grasp of the thousands of years of history, of Jewish history in the Middle East, do you think that would shift the conversation at all, that education? And I don't mean obviously just within the Jewish community, I mean more broadly.
Mijal Bitton:
I mean, broadly speaking, yeah. So I would say two things I take to heart with my friend Haviv Retig Gur, who's a brilliant analyst. He speaks a lot about the fact that Jews, we don't know our own story. And I do think there is, like, huge lack of literacy in understanding that there were nearly 1 million Jews all across the Middle East and North Africa, and they left, fled, or were expelled in like massive Arab nationalist, anti-Zionist regimes that were propped up across the region. So I do think that for people to know these stories would be incredibly powerful.
I do want to note something, though, as someone who has been active in academia, I still have one foot there. I think that in many places, and we need to not be naive. In many places, people have vested interest in certain narratives, and they are emotionally attached to this narrative, and they have no incentive to change them, no matter how many counterfactuals you provide to them.
So there are definitely many parts in academia that want to think of the world as divided between the oppressors and the oppressed, and who want to think of Jews and Israel and Zionists as aligned with the oppressors, who they equate to Europeans and white and Westerners. And no matter how many counterfactuals you will give to them, they will find a way again, and I'm happy to explain this. They will find ways to make it fit into their narrative.
So we need a multi-pronged approach. One approach is to give the literacy to those who are seeking it as a way to have greater strength and intellectual tools at their disposal. Also, there's like a huge middle to convince, you know that can be moved. And when it comes to those ideologues, we have to battle their narratives.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In other words, offering that literacy to the Jewish community first, to those who actually want it, who are curious enough to want it, that's step one.
Mijal Bitton:
Yeah, Jewish community, friends of the Jewish community, people who are intellectually honest and want to have a better discourse around Israel, the Middle East and current reality.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So Mijal, I am curious how your conversations have changed and evolved since October 7. Initially I wanted to ask you about interfaith dialog, but maybe intercultural dialog is a better way to put it. But did you have more intercultural dialog before October 7 or after October 7, or is your work really immersed in the Jewish community and Jewish dialog?
Mijal Bitton:
Yeah, so I would say like this: I think before October 7, I had spent many years focused on interfaith work. I think that the interfaith work was often anchored in more liberal and progressive spaces, and many of those efforts really imploded. And I think that I represent, because I've heard this from so many people who basically said, we've invested years into showing up for others and into relationships. And then if I can’t get someone to say that–you don't need to like Israel, you don't need to like Netanyahu, but just that Hamas raping and murdering is wrong and evil–then what am I doing here? So I think that definitely, I have been affected by that, by seeing that.
And right now, I think we're in a place a year out when there is new energy in trying to figure out, okay, like, who are those people that we can still talk to, and they exist. And also I think that, and this is like work that is ongoing, there is a real sense that we need to re-examine the work that we were doing. Perhaps we were investing in the wrong interfaith relationships and spaces. Which doesn't mean interfaith work is bad, but maybe we need to invest in other parts of interfaith work.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Can you expand on that a little bit?
Mijal Bitton:
I mean, yeah, this is like, personal. I am not going to be spending time in interfaith work with people who give Hamas a pass. I'll just say this, you know, like that. And I think there's a lot for me. I am much more interested right now in pursuing relationships with socially conservative leaders of other faiths, that perhaps in the past, we wouldn't have been in the same tables around interfaith work and who have spoken up with clarity when it comes to defending Jews and speaking up against antisemitism.
This doesn't mean, again, I don't want to imply that we should walk away from spaces you said before, it's important to have people fighting in many different areas. I think the real question we have to ask ourselves is, what are the lines, that if they are crossed, we walk away? Because I think too many Jews, for too long, have stayed in spaces where our basic story, dignity and humanity, was trampled, and we accepted that price. And that is not something we can do anymore.
So we have to figure out, how do we reconfigure relationships? How do we stand up for ourselves in different ways? How do we, and I’ll say this: in many places Jews showed up and agreed to, you know, like, pound their chest about, like, their white Jewish privilege as a price of entry into coalitions and relationships in ways that just were not honest. We need to fight all of this.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You recently hosted AJC CEO Ted Deutch on your podcast Wondering Jews, and I'm curious what you learned from that exchange with him, both on and off the air.
Mijal Bitton:
Yeah, it was wonderful. I co-host the podcast Wondering Jews with Noam Weissman, and it was really nice. I mentioned this on that episode, but I have a very fond personal memory of my first encounter with Ted. It was the March in Washington. I was one of their earliest featured speakers at the March. You know, 300,000 people in person, many watching live. And I was very nervous. And I was like, pacing behind backstage. And I see Ted.
I've never met him before, but I had read about him. And when I read about him, I was very curious. I'm like, who leaves sitting Congress to go and work for the Jews? So I was already, fascinated by like, who would make this career switch? And then I saw him, and I don't know why, I turned to him, and I asked him if I could practice with him. And he literally had me practice my speech. I memorized it, and I practiced, and he gave me some feedback, and I changed some of the words, and his wife lent me a hostage tag necklace because I wanted to have one on stage. And it was early days, I didn't have one.
So my first encounter with him was that it felt like a very personal one, and that's what came across, I think, in the in the podcast, that Ted is this, you know, was a member of Congress, like runs AJC, but he just, he's so warm, and it is so obvious in everything that he says, that this is not like a job for him, but it is a passion and a life's mission. And the way that he spoke about just his love for the Jewish people, for spirituality, for what it means to stand up in the world, his hope and optimism. He speaks about relationships that you can insist on and make sure that you can have right now. It's very moving to find leaders who are running institutions and who themselves are able to embody a very powerful sense of conviction. We need more leaders like that.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So tell us about your newest project.
Mijal Bitton:
Yeah, it’s called Committed. That's the name of the Substack. I started it on Simchat Torah. I'm still tinkering with it. Like you know, how long it should be, the tone, this, that. I'm very lucky to have a lot of readers and students who eagerly give me feedback as to what works and what doesn't, which is lovely, because I love learning Torah with them. But really, as many conversations that I've had with people about anti semitism and advocacy and Zionism on campus, as many conversations that I've been having around like antisemitism and Israel and politics, I have been having the same number of conversations about Judaism and spirituality and the soul and what it means to be part of this magnificent tradition.
I have been taken aback that often in my my classes and lectures, it will end with people coming to me afterwards and wanting to speak about their Jewish journeys, what it means to raise Jewish children, what it means to learn Torah, if you didn't grow up learning Torah, and now you want to what it means to to know that we are souls with bodies, as opposed to bodies with souls, all of these things.
I have felt that it's really important to try to to have weekly touch points that we can have to ask big questions and to be able to address them using Jewish tradition. So I've in my Substack so far, I've explored, like I mentioned before, Jewish pride, what it means to have Jewish pride. I've explored what it means to have, using the stories of Abraham and Rebecca, what it means to, when the world is burning, to know that we have multiple modes of responses. One of them is to provide justice, put out the flame.
Another mode is to help those who have burn marks and to just show care to them and be with them in times of need. The one that I wrote that I think went the farthest. One was around sacrifice, the binding of Isaac, which I wrote about what it means to from America. Look at Israeli parents and know that they are raising children who are willing to sacrifice in a way that American children are just not being taught.
I use the story of Jacob and Esau, and I did a beautiful thought experiment. What would have happened if a Chabad emissary would have met the bad twin of Jacob? And there's all of this text that actually allow us to imagine that Esau could have become a leader of the Jewish people if he would have been shown the kind of love that Chabad emissaries give. So I think there's amazing ways to approach Jewish tradition and to use those as and use Jewish tradition as a way to ask the most critical questions about what it means to live as a Jew today.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I imagine you’ll be lighting candles soon for Hanukkah. Any other special traditions?
Mijal Bitton
The one thing I would say that I love that we do in our Sephardic communities, we light a little bit differently. And this is a traditional way. There's some Sephardic Jews that have changed this a little bit, but traditionally we light one Hanukkiah (menorah) as a family. So in many Ashkenazic communities, each individual lights their own. Classically, in the Sephardic tradition, a family has one Hanukkiah, and we try to light it either by a window or, even better, outside. So my family, my parents, my siblings, they have a special Hanukkiah with glass panels, and we always light it outside the house, facing the streets in a very real way.
And I think that's an important symbol for us, what it means to insist on our lights in public spaces, what it means to fight for public spaces, and what it means, I would say . . . you know, Hanukkah has become such a commercialized holiday in America that, like lives alongside Christmas, and that feels good.
And it's become not just a watered down version of its original premise, but in many ways the opposite, because what the Maccabees did is they took on not just the Greek Empire in military terms. They took on the Greek Empire in cultural and spiritual terms, and they resisted assimilation with everything they had. So in a funny way, in America, to fit in, we've remade Hanukkah in terms that have been opposite in its original meaning.
And I think this last year asked us to reconsider what Hanukkah should look like, and what would it mean, you know, we shouldn't, I'm not saying we should be like the Maccabees exactly. You know, they're a complicated story as well. But what would it mean to make sure that we're not only lighting a light outside, but that we are expressing our Judaism in Jewish terms, even when it's a little bit uncomfortable for others.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Mijal, thank you so much for joining us.
Mijal Bitton:
Thank you for having me. Really great to be here.
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Bishop Joseph Bambera marks the launch of a groundbreaking Catholic-Jewish initiative - Translate Hate: The Catholic Edition - with a wide-ranging interview with AJC’s People of the Pod. At a time when recent events have challenged Catholic-Jewish relations, Bambera, the Chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee (USCCB) on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, details why the church has made combating antisemitism a priority.
Translate Hate: The Catholic Edition, a joint project of AJC and the USCCB, features Catholic commentary on various entries of AJC’s renowned Translate Hate glossary of antisemitic terms, themes, and memes. It comes as Catholic and Jewish communities prepare to mark six decades of trust-building and mutual learning beginning when the Catholic Church reached out to the Jewish people and the world with Nostra Aetate, the historic Second Vatican Council document disseminated on October 28, 1965, which dramatically and publicly decried antisemitism and transformed the Church’s approach to the Jewish people for the better.Resources:
New Glossary Breaks Ground in Tackling Antisemitism Through a Catholic Lens
Listen – AJC Podcasts:The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
Bernard-Henri Lévy and AJC CEO Ted Deutch on How to Build a Resilient Jewish Future Post-October 7
What’s Next for the Abraham Accords Under President Trump?
The ICC Issues Arrest Warrants: What You Need to Know
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePodYou can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Bishop Bambera:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Nearly 60 years ago, the Roman Catholic Church issued a declaration called Nostra Aetate, a groundbreaking document that, among other things, aimed to heal the Church's strained relationship with the Jewish community at large. But over the past year, since the start of the Israel-Hamas war, there have been some tense moments: a call from Pope Francis to investigate whether Israel is committing genocide, a photograph of the Pope before a Nativity scene–featuring a keffiyeh.
Now AJC and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have unveiled Translate Hate: the Catholic edition, the glossary of antisemitic terms, tropes and memes, originally published in 2019, also features Catholic commentaries to explain why the church has made combating antisemitism a priority. Here to talk about this partnership is Bishop Joseph Bambera, Chairman of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee on Ecumenical and interreligious affairs. Bishop, welcome.
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
Thank you for the honor of being with you today.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Bishop Bambera, please walk us through the Catholic edition of Translate Hate and how the Catholic Church became involved in this initiative together with the Jewish community.
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
I think the best way to walk us through the Translate Hate Catholic edition is to first take us back to 1965 and the Second Vatican Council and the declaration on the church's relationship with non-Christian religions, and particularly with the Jewish community.
There was this really milestone declaration Nostra Aetate that I think many of us would be familiar with, and that really speaks about our relationship as it stands today. A relationship that I would say. tragically prior to the Second Vatican Council was not what it should have been. And on the heels of the Council, for almost 60 years, an anniversary that we’ll celebrate next year, we have grown together in mutual respect and understanding.
That particular declaration Nostra aetate speaks very, very clearly about the fact that Catholics and Jews really share a common patrimony. We Catholics, our roots are in Judaism. Jesus was Jewish. His family was. And so many members of the early church were as well. And we recognize and affirm in that document the fact that the Jewish people were the first to hear the Word of God and are a part of a covenant relationship that certainly has not been in any way broken, but has been maintained. And something that we affirm and that we teach in that document. A very important thing, from my perspective.
And as well, the document reminds all those who would be familiar with it, and certainly who should be, if they are not, of the importance of us coming to a deeper sense of mutual respect and understanding. Of decrying any sense of hatred, persecution, or antisemitic efforts on the part of individuals that really have been such a burden to the Jewish people. So that particular document really laid the groundwork, for the very simple fact that I am here today and a part of this initiative.
But to fast forward a bit, the reality of antisemitism, as you know better than I, it has hardly diminished, and sadly, has intensified in recent years. And well before October 7 of 2023. So much so that the bishops of the United States, many of them, brought to the attention of the committee that I chair, the Bishops Committee for Humanism and Interreligious Affairs, have brought to our attention the fact that we need to begin to do something in a more concrete way. To walk more intimately and closely and lovingly with our Jewish brothers and sisters and to address the reality of antisemitism in a very real and concrete manner.
And so in 2022 this committee that I just referenced, they issued a document that they shared with all of the bishops. It's called the Fruits of Dialogues: Catholics Confronting Antisemitism. And in many respects, I would say that that particular document was the impetus for this initiative that we are a part of today, the Translate Hate Catholic Edition, hopefully it's been the impetus for other efforts on the part of many bishops in their own particular dioceses and archdiocese to work with their Jewish partners, to help to eradicate this, or certainly to address it in a way that is hope filled.
So this document has been in the works now for quite a while particularly with the leadership of the Bishop's Committee and the American Jewish Committee as well. What you will find is building upon the antisemitic themes and tropes that were placed in the document when the American Jewish Committee put it together; we have provided commentary on a number of them from a Catholic perspective.
So you know, if you look at the notion of deicide, the commentary that we provide there offers very clear Catholic theological teaching on the fact that that whole reality is certainly not something that we would ever intend to insinuate today is the responsibility of all of the Jewish people. In the midst of these commentaries, we offer current theological teaching. We offer teaching on human dignity, which is so much a part of our tradition and our hope and prayer for humankind, and we acknowledge, as well, in some of those commentaries, the fact that, you know, some members of the Church throughout history have been insensitive and inappropriately offered, and perhaps even negligently offered, words and actions that led to antisemitic efforts, sadly on the part of so many.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So what is the expectation? This document is going out. How are you expecting or wanting parishes and pastors to implement it?
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
Given the fact that it the document that the Bishops Committee came out with in 2022 was really at the initiative of many bishops in the United States, I would like to believe and think that the vast majority of our bishops will embrace this and use it in whatever way speaks to the situation within their own territory, their own region, relative to the Jewish community there. So for example, once this is officially promulgated today, later on in the day, we will be releasing from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on our bishops-only website.
We will be releasing a letter from me as the chair of this committee, and the document, and that will be followed up with a hard copy that will be sent to every bishop in the near future, following the online version that they'll receive today. We anticipate that this will be used by other committees that might have some relationship to the work that our committee does, and the hope that they would use them. We will be disseminating it to ecumenical officers who are appointed in every one of our dioceses to do the work of ecumenism and interreligious affairs folks.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You mentioned Nostra Atate. In 1965 you were just a child then. And I should also mention AJC played a leading role in those conversations, as well with Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel. You were ordained 20 years later. And I'm just curious if this major turning point in Catholic Jewish relations, did it come up in your theology training, or 20 years later, was it just accepted as the norm?
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
You know, I will be frank with you, the term that you used in asking the question was, did it come up? Yes, it did. It did. But given the scope of issues that would be necessary to prepare a man for ministry in the church as a priest in the seminary, it was one of many things that everything rose to the level of being absolutely vital, all right, to our preparation. So this was but it took its place in a whole line of other things that were just as vital.
So maybe the best way to answer your question was, you know, a great deal of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council was integrated into many of the theology courses that I would have taken, all right, and the same would go for something like Nostra Atate. All right. We were, I was certainly familiar with it. All right. It was certainly something that was communicated as a very significant teaching, a milestone moment in our church, a clear refocusing of our relationship with the Jewish community. Prior to that, there were no relationships officially. So it was put before us as something that was vital to consider. But I would not be honest in wanting to suggest that in some way it was a major focus. It was one of many.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I do want to fast forward and talk about today. Of course, Catholic Jewish relations are quite complicated now, especially given the Israel Hamas war, I imagine educating inspiring your flock on the moral complexities of that war, while also rallying the faithful to combat the rise of antisemitism against Israel and the Jewish Diaspora at large is very complicated, and there have been some tense moments. Recently, a letter from Pope Francis, one year after the October 7 terror attacks, included a couple kind of eerily iconic phrases from John 8:44, a verse that's long been understood as a fundamental, eternal indictment of the entire Jewish people. He was even cited by the Pittsburgh synagogue shooter. A lot of Jews are irate that the Pope has called for an investigation into whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. And most recently, some people were upset that the nativity scene at the Vatican featured a baby Jesus resting in a manger draped with a keffiyeh, Palestinian national symbol, and I know that has since been removed from that scene. But how do you talk about all of these moments with your Jewish friends, friends like the Hollanders, when they arise?
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
First of all, the concern that you share in that question, maybe the hurt or the confusion that some of these things have caused. It's rather palpable. I spoke about it just coming into the studio today with Rabbi Marans.
I would first say that the very fact that in this exchange that we are having here today, on a day that is a real positive step. I believe in Catholic Jewish relations with the promulgation of the Translate Hate Catholic Edition, I would say it's a testimony to the relationship that we have developed. And I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for the question, you know, they're, not easy questions to address, but they are of great concern to you and so many others. And you, on behalf of your people, have a responsibility to ask me that question, and I need to say to you that my presence here today is meant to speak a word of encouragement regarding our relationship. It is one that is deeply valued. I treasure it. I'm grateful for it. I am honored to be here today.
Now with that, let me, let me speak a little bit more directly to the question and how these types of things are addressed. I look at the work that I have done in ecumenism and interreligious affairs, and I've been privileged to be chairman of this committee for a term now, for three years. I was previously back in 2017 elected chairman of this very same committee. So I've been at the helm of it twice now, and I've learned so much, so much from Christian partners, so much from our Jewish partners. One of the things that I have learned in the midst of the work that I have done with ecumenism is that I can't create a false sense of unity and harmony. For us to journey together in a positive way, I need to hear what you have to say, and I need to receive it, and I can't say something that is contrary to where my church is.
Now, another dimension of the dialogue work that I have learned relates to listening. How do we listen to what we hear about this relationship? What are we hearing when we read something about Pope Francis? How is that speaking to our hearts? What is it saying to this relationship? I hear from you hurt. I hear from you confusion. I said that a moment ago.
For me, and perhaps this is the best thing that I can say, and I would say it across all three areas or topics that you raised in your question, I would say this much. I can't speak for Pope Francis. But what I can do is reflect to you what I hear from him and what I have heard from him throughout his 11 years as Pope. I have heard from him very, very early on, and you're all familiar with this quote that he offered to a Jewish interreligious organization way back, I think, in 2013 or 14, shortly after he was elected Pope, that a true Christian cannot be an antisemite. That's something that I would affirm, and that's something that I have never heard him go back on.
I have heard him embrace better than probably I have heard prior to his election, a deep commitment to the documents of Vatican Council, Vatican Two, and particularly, a deep commitment to the tenets of Nostra Aetate. The other thing that I've heard from Pope Francis, and perhaps this speaks to some of the struggle that you raise that in the face of terrorism and war and the loss of innocent lives, of Jewish lives that were lost in 2023 and of countless other lives that are lost throughout our world in the midst of war. I hear him speak over and over again about human dignity, the value of life and the reason for why we treasure life, and that's rooted in a common scripture that we both cherish, in the first book of the Torah, Genesis, the first chapter. In the image of God man was created, in the image and likeness of God. I think that that speaks for me to this moment.
It does not take away, and I would not imagine that for a moment some of the struggle that you experience, but that's what I hear when I look at his papacy. I also look at some more personal dimensions of it. And I know that his experience as the archbishop of Buenos Aires was an experience that found him deeply connected to the Jewish community, particularly to a close friend of his, whom I've been privileged to meet, Rabbi Abraham Skorka. So I share these things with you in response to your observation. And by the same token, I would say to you that we have miles to go before we achieve the end for which we are about here today.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In this moment, Bishop, do you believe that Translate Hate, specifically this new Catholic edition has particular value in this, in this moment that we talked about, where the relationship can get complicated?
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
I think, in any moment in time when there is suffering because of hatred, because of an antisemitic perspective that so many people so horrifically bring to life, I think this particular initiative is vital, and I think today more than ever, we have recognized it in our church, the sufferings of our Jewish brothers and sisters. We have recognized it globally. We have recognized it in our country, and we experience it in in my community, Scranton, relatively, you know, small city of about 100,000 people, you know, we it's sadly, it's sadly everywhere.
I believe this moment is a bit of a clarion call for all of us to walk a little bit more authentically and closely with our Jewish brothers and sisters. It's one thing to have issued a document 60 years ago. You can forget the intensity and the significance that document was and meant 60 years ago, 50 years ago, maybe even 40 years ago. But as time goes on and generations pass, we sometimes need to refocus our attention, don't we? And we need to recognize the fact that as our society, becomes more secularized, we can't possibly circle the wagons to just preserve what we have.
Every one of our congregations, many of yours and many of mine, are diminishing in terms of numbers since the pandemic, but also before that as well. And I think sadly, what you see in many congregations is this sense of trying to preserve what one has and therefore excluding others. Not just, I certainly don't necessarily mean from being in a church or a synagogue or temple, but I mean excluding from life by one's attitudes and one's actions and one's words. And I think we are, at this moment, really at risk of losing a sense of what we learn and how we grow from dialogue.
I'm here to tell you today that I am so much richer personally because of this opportunity that I have been given to be a part of this initiative, frankly, to even prepare for today. It's just been a wonderful experience for me that has really re-energized me. This wonderful mission. But it's also reminded me of how much people who are involved in in faith traditions, in a leadership position, can be somewhat academically connected to something. It's it's got to be translated to the heart, and I hope that that's what happens here.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I mentioned that you were just a child when Nostra Aetate came about. Can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and when you heard the calling to seek ordination and become a priest?
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
I grew up in a Catholic family. I didn't have a lot of Jewish friends. There weren't a lot of Jewish people living in our community, although I did develop friends as as I went off to college. Okay, when I when I got the call to be a become a priest. I was actually at the University of Pittsburgh with every intention of becoming a dentist. It was kind of the family business, okay? And and I got involved in an ecumenical Christian campus ministry program. But, you know, it was just an experience that really called me to develop a deeper sense of authenticity, I think, in my faith journey, and, and, and so that's what ultimately prompted me to go into the seminary and become a priest. Did you grow up in Pittsburgh? I grew up in Scranton, where I serve as bishop, which is very unusual. So I my mom, who, at 97 still lives nearby. We I've spent my entire ministry in the Diocese of Scranton, and 15 years ago was appointed Bishop.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Wow, wow. That that is indeed rare, and that is indeed rare. So you get to see the parish in which you you grew up.
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
I do. I do, yeah. And I've journeyed with this community, there's, there's pluses and minuses to something like that. You know, sometimes people say, What's the best thing about being bishop in your home diocese? I say, you know people, and they know you and and what's the most challenging thing? You know people and they know you.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Well, Bishop, thank you so much for sharing what the church’s teaching now and how it's collaborating with AJC to build bridges and educate your flock. Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us.
Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:
It's been a real pleasure.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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What lessons can be drawn from the post-October 7 era? Amid growing isolation and antisemitism, where do opportunities for hope and resilience lie for the Jewish people?
In a compelling discussion, AJC CEO Ted Deutch and Bernard-Henri Lévy—renowned French philosopher, public intellectual, and author of Israel Alone—explore these critical questions. Guest-hosted by AJC Paris Director Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache, this conversation offers insight into the challenges Jewish communities face and the possibilities for a brighter future.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
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Transcript of Conversation with Bernard-Henri Lévy and Ted Deutch:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
What lessons can be drawn from the post-October 7 era? Amid growing isolation and antisemitism, where do opportunities for hope and resilience lie for the Jewish people?
I’m throwing it off to AJC Paris Director Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache to explore these critical questions. Anne-Sophie?
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you, Manya. Welcome everyone to today's special episode of People of the Pod. I'm sitting here in our office near the Eiffel Tower for a special and unique conversation between Ted Deutch AJC CEO and Bernard-Henri Lévy, one of the most, if not the most prominent French philosopher and public intellectuals. Bonjour.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
Bonjour. Hello.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Today, we will speak about loneliness, the loneliness of the Jewish people in Israel, the explosion of antisemitism in Europe and the United States, the attacks on Israel from multiple fronts since October 7. We will also speak about the loneliness of Western democracies, more broadly, the consequences of the US elections and the future for Ukraine and the European continent.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:, you've recently come back from a tour in the United States where you presented your latest book titled Israel Alone. Ted, you've just arrived in Europe to sound again the alarm on the situation of Jewish communities on this continent after the shocking assault on Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam. Israel alone, the diaspora alone, actually the Jewish people, or Am Yisrael alone. As if Israel and Jews all over the world have merged this year over a common sense of loneliness.
So I ask the question to both of you, are we alone? Bernard, let's start with you.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
I am back from a campus tour in the United States of America. I went in USC, in UCLA, in Columbia, in Ohio, University in Michigan. I was in many places, and in these places, in the campuses, it's not even a question. The loneliness is terrible. You have Jewish students, brave, resilient, who have to face every day humiliation, provocations, attacks, sometimes physical attacks. And who feel that, for the first time, the country in the world, America, which was supposed to be immune to antisemitism. You know, we knew about antisemitism in Europe. We knew about antisemitism in the rest of the world.
But in America, they discovered that when they are attacked, of course there is support. But not always from their teachers, not always from the boards of the universities, and not always from the public opinion. And what they are discovering today in America is that, they are protected, of course, but not as it was before unconditionally. Jews in America and in Europe are supposed to be protected unconditionally.
This is minimum. Minimum in France, since French Revolution, in America, since the Mayflower. For the first time, there are conditions. If you are a right wing guy, you say, I protect you if you vote for me. If you don't vote, you will be guilty of my loss, and you will be, and the state will disappear in a few years. So you will be no longer protected. You are protected under the condition that you endorse me.
On the left. You have people on the left wing side, people who say you are protected under condition that you don't support Israel, under condition that you take your distance with Zionism, under condition that you pay tribute to the new dark side who say that Netanyahu is a genocide criminal and so on. So what I feel, and not only my feeling, is the feeling of most of the students and sometimes teachers whom I met in this new situation of conditional security and support, and this is what loneliness means in America.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you, Bernard. How about you, Ted?
Ted Deutch:
Well, it's interesting. First of all, thank you Anne-Sophie, and Bernard, it's an honor to be in conversation with you. It's interesting to hear you talk about America. Your observations track very closely. The comments that I've heard since being in Europe from students in the UK, and from students here who, speaking about America, tell me that their conclusion is that whatever the challenges they face here and the challenges are real, that they feel fortunate to be in university in Europe rather than in the United States.
But the point that you make that's so important everywhere, is this sense that it's not only the Jewish community that expects to have unconditional security. For the Jewish community now, it feels as if expecting that security, the freedom to be able on college campuses, the freedom to be able to pursue their studies and grow intellectually and have different experiences.
That when that security is compromised, by those who wish to exclude Jews because they support Israel, for those who wish to tag every Jewish student as a genocidal baby killer, that when those positions are taken, it's the loneliness stems from the fact that they're not hearing from the broader community, how unacceptable that behavior is. That it's become too easy for others to, even if they're not joining in, to simply shrug their shoulders and look the other way, when what's happening to Jewish students is not just about Jewish students, but is fundamentally about democracy and values and the way of life in the U.S. and in Europe.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
Of course, except that the new thing in America, which is not bad, is that every minority has the right to be protected. Every community, every minority has the right to have a safe space and so on. There is one minority who does not have the same rights. The only minority who is not safe in America, whose safety is not granted, is the Jewish one. And this is a scandal. You know, we could live in a sort of general jungle. Okay, Jews would be like the others, but it is not the case. Since the political correctness and so on, every minority is safe except the Jewish one.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
So if we are alone, if American Jewish students feel alone, as European Jewish students, we are probably not the only one to feel that way, right? I turn over to you, Mr. Levy, and go to another subject.
Since day one of the Russian invasion, and even before that, you have been a forceful advocate for a steadfast European and American support for Ukraine.
Is Ukraine alone today? And will it be even more during America's second Trump administration?
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
I've been an advocate of Ukraine, absolutely and I really believe that the freedom for liberty, the battle for liberty, the battle for freedom today, is waged on two front lines. For the moment, it might be more, but Israel and Ukraine. I wish to make that very clear, it is the same battle. They are the same stakes, the same values, and the same enemy.
I'm not sure that every Ukrainian, every Jew, knows that they have the same enemy. The axis between Iran, Putin, China, more and more, Turkey, and the same axis of authorisation countries. So it is the same battle.
The Ukrainians have not been exactly alone. They have been supported in the last two years and half, but in a strange way, not enough. The chancellery, the West, spoke about an incremental support. Incremental support meant exactly what is not enough, what is necessary for them not to lose, but not to win. This is what I saw on the ground.
I made three documentaries in Ukraine on the field, and I could elaborate on that a lot, precisely, concretely in every spot, every trench they have exactly what is needed for the line not to be broken, but not to win. Now we enter in a new in a new moment, a new moment of uncertainty in America and in Europe, with the rise of populism.
Which means the rise of parties who say: Who cares about Ukraine, who don't understand that the support of Ukraine, as the support of Israel, is a question of national interest, a question of national security for us, too. The Ukrainian ladies and gentlemen, who fight in Ukraine, they fight for the liberty. They fight for ours, French, yours, American. And we might enter in a new moment. It's not sure, because history has more imagination than the man, than mankind. So we can have surprises. But for the moment, I am really anxious on this front line too, yes.
Ted Deutch:
There are additional connections too, between what's happening in Ukraine and what's happening in Israel, and clearly the fact that Iranian killer drones are being used by Russia to kill Europeans should be an alarming enough fact that jars all of us into action. But the point that you make, that I think is so important Bernard, is that Israel has in many ways, faced the same response, except with a much tighter window than Ukraine did.
Israel was allowed to respond to the attacks of October 7, that for those few days after the World understood the horrific nature of the slaughter, the rape, and the babies burning, the terrible, terrible mayhem, and recognize that Israel had a right to respond, but as with Ukraine, only to a point
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
Even to a point, I'm not sure.
Ted Deutch:
But then that point ended. It was limited. They could take that response. But now we've moved to the point where, just like those students on campus and in so many places around the world, where only the Jews are excluded, that's a natural line from the geopolitical issues, where only Israel is the country that can't respond in self defense. Only Israel is the country that doesn't have the right to exist. Only a Jewish state is the one state that should be dismantled. That's another reason, how these are, another way they are all tied together.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
Don't forget that just a few days after Israel started to retaliate. We heard from everywhere in the West, and United Nations, calls for cease fire, call for negotiation, call for de-escalation. Hezbollah shell Israel for one year. We never heard one responsible of the UN called Hezbollah for not escalating. The day Israel started to reply and retaliate after one year of being bombed, immediately take care to escalation. Please keep down. Please keep cool, etc, etc.
So situation of Israel is a unique case, and again, if you have a little memory, I remember the battle for Mosul. I made a film about that. I remember the battle against the Taliban in 2001 nobody asked the West to make compromise with ISIS and with al-Qaeda, which are the cousins of Hamas. Nobody asked the West not to enter here or there. No one outside the ground said, Okay, you can enter in Mazar-I-Sharif in Afghanistan, but you cannot enter in Kandahar.
Or you can enter in the western part of Mosul. But be careful. Nobody had even this idea this happened only for Israel. And remember Joe by then asking the Prime Minister of Israel about Rafa? Don't, don't, don't. At the end of the day, he's not always right and he's often wrong, but the Prime Minister was right to enter into Rafa for obvious reasons, which we all know now.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Ted, let me come back to you more specifically on the US. At AJC, we support democracy. This is in our DNA. Since the organization was founded 1906 we've been strong supporters of the Transatlantic Partnership since day one. We believe in the alliance of democracies in the defense of our common values. And you know here, there's a lot of anxiety about Donald Trump's re-election. So what is your take on the U.S. elections’ consequences for Europe, for transatlantic relations?
Ted Deutch:
I've been coming to Europe for years, as I did as an elected official. Now in this capacity there is that our friends in Europe are always rightly focused on US policy and engaging the level of commitment the US makes to Europe. The election of Donald Trump, this isn't a new moment. There is history.
And for four years in the last administration, the focus that the President had on questioning the ties to Europe and questioning NATO and questioning the commitment that has been so central to the transatlantic relationship rightfully put much of Europe on edge. Now, as the President will come back into power, there is this question of Ukraine and the different opinions that the President is hearing.
In one side, in one ear, he's hearing from traditional conservative voices in the United States who are telling him that the US has a crucial role to play, that support for Ukraine is not just as we've been discussing, not just in the best interest of Ukraine, but that it relates directly back to the United States, to Europe.
It actually will, they tell him, rightly so, I submit, that US involvement and continued support for Ukraine will help to prevent further war across the continent. In the other ear, however, he's hearing from the America first crowd that thinks that America should recognize that the ocean protects us, and we should withdraw from the world. And the best place to start is Ukraine, and that means turning our back on the brave Ukrainians who have fought so nobly against Russia. That's what he's hearing.
It's imperative that, starting this weekend, when he is here at Notre Dame, that he hears and sees and is reminded of not just the importance of the transatlantic relationship, but why it's important, and why that relationship is impacted so directly by what's happening in Ukraine, and the need to continue to focus on Ukraine and to support NATO. And to recognize that with all of the challenges, when there is an opportunity for American leadership to bring together traditional allies, that should be the easiest form of leadership for the President to take. It's still an open question, however, as to whether that's the approach that you will take.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you, Ted. Let me sum it up, our conversation for a minute. We said that the Jewish people feels alone, but we said that we are not the only ones. Didn't you feel that on that lonely road of this year, we've also never felt as strong as who we are, both our Jewishness. A French intellectual I know, Bernard Levy would say our Jewish being, être juif, and Jewish unity. Are they the best answers to overcome our loneliness? Let's start with our philosopher.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
I don't believe only in Jewish unity. I believe in Jewish strength. And in one of my previous books, the genius of religion, I spoke about about that Jewish strength, not military strength in Israel, but spiritual strength, and I think that this strength is not behaving so bad. I told you about the campuses. I told you the dark side.
But there is also the bright side, the fact that the students stand firm. They stand by themselves, by their position. They are proud Jews in the campuses. In Israel, come on. Israel is facing the most difficult war and the most terrible war of its history. We know all the previous wars, and alas, I have the age to have known personally and directly, a lot of them since 1960s about this war with terrorists embedded in the civilians, with the most powerful terrorist army in the world on the north, with seven fronts open with Houthis sending missiles and so on. Israel never saw that.
So the people of Israel, the young girls and young boys, the fathers, even the old men of Israel, who enlist, who are on the front, who fight bravely. They do a job that their grandfathers never had to do. So, resilience. Also in Israel. The most sophisticated, the most difficult, the most difficult to win war, they are winning it. And in Europe, I see, as I never saw, a movement of resistance and refusal to bow in front of the antisemite, which I never saw to this extent in my long life. You have groups today in France, for example, who really react every day, who post videos every day.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Some are in this room.
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
Some are in this room. Pirrout is in this room, for example, every day about the so called unbound France. Mélenchon, who is a real antisemite as you know, they publish the truth. They don't let any infamy pass without reacting, and this again, is new, not completely new, but I never saw that to this extent.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you, Rene. How about you Ted, what do you think?
Ted Deutch:
more important than ever that as Jews, as Jewish community, As Zionists, that we don't allow our opponents to define what's happening, that the response is never to to feel defensive, that the response. Is to be bold, boldly Jewish, boldly Zionist, unapologetically Zionist. To to do exactly what those students are doing across the United States, that I've seen, the students here who have that I that I've met with that in Europe, a student in in London a few days ago, said to me, she said, when someone yells at me, when they when they scream at me and accuse me of genocide, she said it only makes me want to get a bigger Magen David.
The person that that stood up at a meeting in New York a few months ago who told me that, before announced in front of a big crowd that that for years, she's been involved in all of these different organizations in her community to to help feed the hungry and to help kids to read, and all these worthy causes. She said, since October 7, she said, I am all Jewish all the time, and I want everyone to know it the and Israel is perhaps the best example of this. It's impossible to imagine the kind of resilience that we see from Israelis. The taxi driver that I had in Israel. He said, This is so difficult for all of us. We've all known people. We've lost people. It's affected all of us, but we're just never going to give up, because our history doesn't allow it. We have prevailed as a people for 1000s of years and have gotten stronger every single time.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you, Ted. I can keep thinking about this overwhelming challenge that we face as the Jewish people today, which seems to confine us to solitude. Anyway, Jews and Israel are attacked with alternative truths, false narratives. We've witnessed how international justice, our common, universal values, have been turned upside down in the Jewish tradition, we say that we have a mission to repair the world, Tikkun Olam. But how can we make sure to recreate the common world in the first place?
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
It's on process number one, continue to try to repair the world, I remind you, and you know that, and Simone Rodan knows it also, in many occurrences, in many situations of the last 30 years when real genocides happened. Real genocide, not imaginary. Real one. In Rwanda, in Srebrenica, in Darfur, when I met with in Chad, with Simone, and so on. The first whistleblowers, the first to tell the world that something terrible was happening, were not exactly Jews, but were ladies and men who had in their hearts the memory of the Shoah. And the flame of Yad Vashem. That's a fact, and therefore they reacted and what could be repaired. They contributed to repair it. Number one.
Second observation, about what Ted said, there is in Europe now, since many years, a tendency to step out, to give up to and to go to Israel. Not only by love of Zionism, but thinking that this is not a safe place any longer for them. I tell you, this tendency starts to be reversed now you have more and more Jews in Europe who say, no, no, no, no. We built this country. We are among the authors of the French social contract.
For example, we will not leave it to those illiterate morons who try to push us away. And this is a new thing. This reaction, this no of the Jews in Europe is something relatively new. And third little remark. 10 years ago in the States, I met a lot of young people who were embarrassed with Israel, who said we are liberal and there is Israel, and the two don't match really well. 10-15, years ago, I met a lot. Less and less today. You have more and more students in America who understand that Israel should be supported, not in spite of their liberal values. But because of their liberal values. And come on, this for a liberal, is a treasure, and it is unprecedented, and there is no example.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
How about you, Ted? How do you think we can overcome the challenge of those parallel realities we feel we live in?
Ted Deutch:
Those students, and I think broadly the Jewish community, after October 7, came to realize that as Hamas terrorists rolled into southern Israel, they made no distinctions about the politics of the Israelis. That great irony, of course, is that the peaceniks, or the brunt of these attacks, living along the southern edge of Israel by Gaza, they didn't make determinations on who to kill based on how they practiced, what their politics were, how they felt about Bibi.
And I think what the Jewish world, certainly it's true for young people that I talk to, came to realize is that connection between Israel and the Jewish people is not theoretical, that that ultimately, what's gone on for the past year is is an attack against Israel, Israel as the stand in for the Jewish people, and that defending Israel is really defending all of us. And I think they've come to understand that.
But going forward, I think what you described, Bernard, is new, this is what it means now to be an Or Lagoyim. This is what it means to be a light unto the nations. That in the face of all of these attacks, that Israeli democracy continues to thrive. That the conversation by those, ironically, the conversation that has attempted to demonize Israel by demonizing Bibi, has highlighted the fact that these protests have continued during the time of war. As you point out that this is this is unlike anything you would see, that what's permitted, the way democracy is thrives and is and is vibrant in Israel, is different than every place else, that this is a message that the world will see, that that the that in the face of these ongoing challenges, that the Jewish community stands not just against against these attacks against the Jews, but stands against what's happening In the streets of so many places in America.
Where people march with Hezbollah flags, where they're openly supporting Hamas. It's going to take some time, but ultimately, because of the strong, because of the resilience, because of the strong, proud way that Jews are responding to this moment and to those protests, eventually, the world will realize that standing in support of Hamas terrorism is not just something that is dangerous to the Jews, but puts at risk the entire world.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you. I'm a Sephardic Jew, so I cannot just end this conversation speaking about loneliness. How about hope? Can we find some?
Bernard-Henri Lévy:
I compare the situation of the Jews today to the situation in the time of my dad, for example, there are some change, for example, the Christians and the Catholic Church. 50 years ago, a huge cultural revolution in the world. It is the change of position of the Catholic Church on anti semitism. It was the Vatican Two Council and the Nostra aetate. It seems tiny, but it is huge revolution, and it consisted in a single word, one word, the Catholic Council of Vatican Two said Jews are no longer the fathers of the Christians, as it was said before, in the best of the case, they are the brothers of the Christians.
This is a huge revelation. Of course, Catholics are not always faithful to this commitment. And popes, and especially the pope of today do not remember well the message of his ancestor, but on the whole, we have among the Christians, among the Catholics in Europe and in. Real friends in America among the new evangelical I don't know if they are friends, but they are strong allies. Abraham agreements was again another big revolution which has been underestimated, and the fact that the Abraham agreements, alliance with Morocco, Emirates, Bahrain stands, in spite of the war on seven fronts. Is a proof. It is solid. It is an ironclad alliance, and it holds.
And this is a new event, and we have in the not only in the top of the state, but in the public opinions of the Muslim world. We have a lot of people who who start to be who are more and more numerous, to believe that enough is enough. Too much war, too much misunderstandings, too much hatred, and who are really eager to make the real peace, which is the peace of hearts and the peace of souls with their other brothers, who are the Jews. So yes, there are some reasons to be optimistic.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you very much, Bernard. Ted?
Ted Deutch:
I don't think that we can ever give up hope. And optimism is necessary, and I think justified. The things Bernard talks about, I mean, at AJC, our focus on on building democracy, our focus on interreligious work, the work we've done with the Catholic Church around Nostra aetate, now 60 years old and and continuing to build the relationship our Muslim Jewish Advisory Council always looking for opportunities to to find those voices that are tired of all of the war.
And in our office, in Abu Dhabi, we've, we've continued to go to the Gulf, to the Abraham Accord states, and beyond, even through this entire war, because there is the hope of of getting to a place where, where Israel is in a more normalized position in the region, which will then change the perception and push back against the lies that those who wish to to see a world without Israel continue to espouse.
All of that is hopeful, and we work toward it. But for me, the most hopeful thing to come from this moment is, AJC works around the world and because the Jewish community now understands how connected we all are as a result of the threats that we face, the opportunity to strengthen diaspora Jewry, to help people realize that the connections between the Jewish community in Paris and the Jewish community in Mexico City and the Jewish community in Buenos Aires in Chicago, in Miami and New York, that they're interrelated and that we don't have the luxury of viewing our challenges as unique in our countries.
By standing together, we're in a much, much stronger position, and we have to continue to build that. That's why AJC's Global Forum is always the most important part of the year for us, bringing together the Jewish community from around the world. That's why the antisemitism summit that we'll be doing here with the CRIF is going to be so critical to building those relationships. We have an opportunity coming out of this incredibly dark time to take the strength and the resolve that we feel and to and to channel it in ways that that will lead the Jewish community to places that a year ago seemed absolutely impossible to imagine.
Those 101 hostages need to return home. We stand together calling for them to return home. We stand together in our support of Israel as it wages the seven-front war, and ultimately, we stand together as Jewish people. That's what gives me hope every day.
Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache:
Thank you so much.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for the conversation between my colleague Benji Rogers, AJC's director for Middle East and North Africa initiatives, and Rob Greenway, director of the Allison center for national security at the Heritage Foundation, and former senior director for Middle Eastern and North African Affairs on the National Security Council, they discuss the opportunities and challenges President-elect Trump will face in the Middle East.
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The Abraham Accords marked a significant foreign policy achievement for President Donald Trump at the end of his first term in 2020. What’s next for the Abraham Accords under a new Trump administration?
Joining us is Rob Greenway, Director of the Allison Center for National Security at the Heritage Foundation and former senior director for Middle Eastern and North African Affairs on the National Security Council, to discuss the opportunities and challenges President Trump will face in the Middle East. Guest hosted by Benjy Rogers, AJC’s Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, Greenway draws on his firsthand experience with the Abraham Accords to explore how these agreements can be expanded and how security and economic cooperation between Israel and its neighbors can be strengthened.
Resources:
AJC Experts Assess the Global Impact of Trump’s Election
What President-Elect Trump’s Nominees Mean for Israel, Antisemitism, and More
The Abraham Accords, Explained
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
Honoring Israel’s Lone Soldiers This Thanksgiving: Celebrating Service and Sacrifice Away from Home
The ICC Issues Arrest Warrants: What You Need to Know
What President-Elect Trump’s Nominees Mean for Israel, Antisemitism, and More
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Rob Greenway:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
The landmark achievement of the first Trump Administration was President Trump’s ability to successfully broker peace treaties between Israel and the Arab countries of the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco. While much has changed since the September 2020 signing of the Abraham Accords, there are high hopes that a second Trump Administration will once again focus on brokering Arab-Israeli peace. This week, my colleague Benjy Rogers, AJC’s Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, invited an expert from the first Trump administration to share his insights on what to expect. Benjy, the mic is yours.
Benjamin Rogers:
What can we expect from the incoming Trump administration, particularly when it comes to the committee's policy and the future of the Abraham Accords and regional integration? To help us break it all down, we're joined by someone who's been at the center of these historic developments, Rob Greenway.
Rob is the director of the Allison Center for National Security at the Heritage Foundation, where he formulates policy to defend American freedom and prosperity. Rob has first hand experience with the Abraham Accords, having served as Deputy Assistant to the President and senior director of the National Security Council's Middle Eastern and North African Affairs Directorate during the first Trump administration.
Rob has more than 30 years in public service, including as President and Executive Director of the Abraham Accords Peace Institute, advocating for the expansion of the agreements he helped craft. Rob has also served as Senior Intelligence Officer at the Defense Intelligence Agency, and is a decorated combat veteran within the US Army Special Forces.
Rob, welcome to People of the Pod. We are honored to have you here.
Rob Greenway:
It's my great pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Benjamin Rogers:
Let's jump right into it. Much has changed in the Middle East since the last Trump administration, while the hope of the Abraham Accords continued into the Biden administration, the horrors of October 7 in its aftermath have transformed the region.
How do you think the next Trump administration will address the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East, and do you see renewed hope for continuing to deepen and expand the Abraham Accords?
Rob Greenway:
It's a great question. I'll start in reverse order, because that's the optimistic part, right? The hope in all of the relatively dark circumstances and the escalation of the conflict that’s really accelerated, but didn't begin in October the seventh, but it certainly accelerated dramatically. I certainly judge that there is hope. And there's hope because the shared interest between Israel and its neighboring countries is, in fact, very strong.
And that the US fundamentally, and certainly under a Trump administration, I think, will reprioritize efforts to normalize Israel's relations with its neighbors, to confront shared adversaries, which obviously is Iran, its surrogates and proxies, including Hamas and Hezbollah. But also because the economic potential has to be unlocked through integration of Israel and its neighbors and the countries within the region.
They all know this, and they all recognize the intrinsic importance of it, so both for security purposes and for economic reasons, the normalization process will be resumed, certainly under a Trump administration as a matter of policy. It is, in many ways, the solution to the problems we're seeing in the region right now.
Benjamin Rogers:
Say a little bit more about that, Rob, if you would, what particular solutions do you think can come as a result of expansion of Abraham Accords, regional integration?
Rob Greenway:
Sure. On the one hand, the practical side of it is Israel's defense is better done working with and through with other partners, not just the United States, but its neighbors, so the extent to which cooperation could be expanded, they can jointly meet the threat from Iran, and will, in fact, have to do so.
Iran, unfortunately, has been fed too long by appeasement the last four years. It's flush with cash. It's at nuclear threshold. The only way for Israel to effectively defend itself is more often than not, working with like-minded partners, and certainly the United States. Together, I think it's easier to provide a defense.
Remember the ballistic missile attacks against Israel, which now unfortunately, have happened twice. It took a regional neighborhood response to that in order to effectively detect and intercept the range of missiles and drones and cruise missiles coming from Iran. That's a picture of what the potential is and should be.
It's also a strong deterrent. When Israel's standing with its partners and allies in the region, it discourages the escalation that Iran is responsible for. And again, the economic potential is also critical, and it's so important that they would protect and defend the relationship, because it's so vital to all of their future potential.
Benjamin Rogers:
I appreciate what you said on defense, and I think that makes a lot of sense, but I want to drill into a little bit more on the economic side of things, because it's easiest to say, hey, look, there's greater ties, there's greater business. This is a region that, little over 10 years ago, went through the Arab Spring. This is a region that is not all the Gulf. This is a region where there's lots of poverty and there's lots of struggles. A region that is impacted by the daily changes throughout the globe. How does economic cooperation address some of those concerns? Address some of those issues? How does a more integrated Middle East, will it actually make your average person on the streets, life better? How do you get there?
Rob Greenway:
So first, a couple of points. If you talk to countries in the region. They all share similar concerns. They look a little different, but they have similar concerns. One is the security environment. Again, each of them have a different focus, but they're all concerned about the security environment, largely again, the threat from Iran.
Second is that they've got a domestic population that, in all too many cases, ultimately will have difficulty finding employment for its large youth population, growing population below the age of 25. They're all very cognizant of this, and they know that the solution is economic integration, regionally and perhaps globally. And so they know that they have a problem. They know that the solution is better integration. It's historically not been the case. Intra-GCC trade has always been less than 15% historically, Europe and Russia are probably still trading more than that now, even though they're at war essentially in Europe, but the GCC has not done so, but they know that they can't sustain it.
Second, how it helps average individuals. The employment opportunities. And look, it's not just integrating the country's economies. The reality is, the strongest economic potential is allowing market markets to be connected between Europe and Asia, through the Middle East. So to move goods and services between Asian and European markets, the Middle East has to be transited.
If you integrate the countries from a transportation standpoint and from an economic standpoint, the potential becomes vast. That's the real economic promise. Integrating a company's bilateral trade with UAE, with Israel, is absolutely spectacular to watch, but that's the beginning. The end is to better integrate economies and markets globally through which the region is a critical transport link. It can happen. They want it to happen, and I think we can make it happen, and I hope we do.
Benjamin Rogers:
That's fascinating. I think it's just such a stark difference in the way we've been approaching the region recently, which is doom and gloom. This is cause for hope. This is a cause for a way forward.
But October 7, we saw, and you've mentioned this country repeatedly, we saw how spoilers can completely upend this hope. You mentioned a little bit, but can you say a little bit more about how the Trump administration is thinking about countries like the Iranian regime, how the Trump administration will ensure that terror organizations like Hezbollah, like Hamas, will not ever be able to threaten this, this pretty remarkable vision that you're sharing today.
Rob Greenway:
It's a great question. Maybe the central question. First, we didn't see this threat manifest itself, even though it was there, latent. It didn't just come into creation on October the seventh. Obviously, it existed during the first Trump term, but it never manifested itself this way because it had boundaries. The boundaries come in two ways. First is an absolute, demonstrable commitment to Israel's security, not question, not speculative, not changing or dynamic as it is now and unfortunately, wanting in too many cases, it was ironclad. Everyone in the region knew it, and everyone saw it, and that's an incredibly important part of deterrence. The second and perhaps even more important is denying resources to your adversaries. It sounds fundamental. You shouldn't pay your enemies to attack you, but that's what appeasement is, and that's what's happened in the last four years of the Biden administration.
You can't give the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism $120 billion of excess revenue and not expect them to engage in terrorism. And so they did. The principal applied the first Trump term will absolutely come back in the second and that's denying them the resources.
And so for us, you know, I watched Hezbollah for decades, and to see them ask for members to donate their organs to raise funds at the end of the maximum economic pressure campaign, by the end of 2020, as a sign of success, in a sense that they were they were deprived and unable to conduct attacks and enter into that risk. I know that that will have a similar result. It's going to take a while to get back to it, but I strongly believe it has to happen, and I believe that it will happen.
Benjamin Rogers:
Thanks Rob. I want to also dive into what's been front and center on a lot of people's rights now, which is Israeli-Palestinian relations. What do you think the Trump approach will be? And this, to me, is particularly interesting, because, you know, we saw early in the Trump administration, the focus on the deal of the century, focus on peace and prosperity. We saw an initial rejection by the Palestinian Authority, by the PLO to any sort of agreement.
We know that many in the Israeli government have a range of views, quite strong views. And I would say the population as a whole, any mechanisms of peace while an ongoing war is happening, particularly in the aftermath of October 7 and something that is more challenging than ever to talk about. How do you see the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and how do you see a Trump administration approaching it?
Rob Greenway:
I believe I've read somewhere. I'm sure you did too. There's nothing new under the sun. And in most cases, there are precedents and examples. Look, for over four decades, people pursued the Israel-Palestine conflict as the central issue in the region, and they made no progress on either front. The region didn't get better, and Israel's relationship with the Palestinians didn't improve, empirically and objectively.
The approach in the Trump administration was, what are the most pressing threats to our interest in the region's interest, including Israel? The answer is Iran, its surrogates and proxies. And ISIS in 2017 as you recall. And so the premise is, start with the highest order of threat. If you get the sequence wrong, you know you're going to inevitably have adverse consequences.
You can't paint the kitchen when your house is on fire. It's not a perfect analogy, but the idea is, we have to deal with the most primary threats first, and if you don't deal with Iran as the principal source of instability in the region, you can't make progress on anything else, including this issue. Second, as we heard from, John Kerry's famous remarks in 2016, deeply held belief then, and I fear still now, you cannot make progress on Israel-Arab relations without making progress on the Palestinian file. And he emphasized, you can't. And obviously you can. We proved it in the form of the Abraham Accords, and President Trump led the way. And I think that will come back again.
And that, I think, is the key to success. But everyone I talked to in Israel tells me the same thing, the two state solution is dead after October the seventh. At some point it may resurrect itself. I think at the end of the day, we focus on the primary threat, build a stronger relationship between Israel and its neighbors, and then we can also improve the lives of the Palestinian people in a variety of ways, which the Abraham Accords were designed to do and its members insisted on.
And second, as you mentioned, the peace to prosperity plan, I think we'll end up leveraging the work done there, the fantastic work that Jared did, just he did with the Abraham Accords, and resurrect that for what needs to happen next in places like Gaza and South Lebanon. And I think that will improve the lives of the Palestinian people. So it's a reverse sequencing, essentially. I think that gets to a different outcome. But if you start with an impossible, intractable problem, everything else becomes difficult.
Benjamin Rogers:
Fascinating. Saudi Arabia. What do you think can be done? What do you think relations are between the US and Saudi Arabia, between Israel and Saudi Arabia. I know there's been strong comments that have got a lot of attention as of late, but where do you see that relationship going?
Rob Greenway:
I think the good news is that President Trump's relationship with the kingdom and with Saudi leadership like the region, was exceptional. His first visit as President of the United States on May 17, was to Riyadh and then to Jerusalem, and then to Rome, very deliberately and very intentionally. And the policies he set forth were what we carried as guidance for the four years that followed. And I think it bore fruit.
That relationship is key, and I think it's going to be restored. It was deeply damaged on a number of fronts under the Biden-Harris administration, I think that damage is going to be undone by a different relationship and approach. And second, look, we've had decades, generations of cooperation with Saudi Arabia, as we have with Israel, and that puts President Trump in a unique position to be able to broker the inevitable peace between the two.
But I think it's something that, like most negotiations, and certainly in the Middle East, we should give space for the new administration to do this privately and not have a public negotiation, because all that's going to do is complicated for all parties, and it'll make the end objective more difficult. I think it'll happen. I think it needs to happen.
Last thing I'll say is, it isn't as much about security, although that's certainly a critical part of it. It's also, again, about managing global markets between the United States and Saudi Arabia, because this is what, obviously, for our purposes and for the region's purposes, we've got to be able to do. As long as China is dependent upon Middle Eastern oil and gas, we've got to be able to exercise some control over it. And we can't let Russia, as an exporter and our partners and allies in the region, manage global exports to China.
So this isn't limited to the region itself. Our relationship with Riyadh is vital. It is strategic. It is necessary. It helped us prevail in the Cold War against the Soviet Union. It'll be absolutely vital in competition with China and with Russia. So it's critical on a number of fronts. President Trump instinctively understands this better than I think anyone, and I think he's in a unique position to close the real deal of the century.
Benjamin Rogers:
Staying on this topic, for a little bit, where else, what other countries in the Middle East do you think are going to be of a particular focus to the incoming Trump administration?
Rob Greenway:
So not surprisingly, Riyadh would unlikely be the only country to join the Accords, not followed by others. So I could think of most other countries in the Gulf would be good candidates. But I also think it's not limited to the region, right? There are a number of other Muslim majority countries that are not necessarily Arab, that reside outside the region that would be enormously beneficial from an economic standpoint and from a diplomatic standpoint. And we had a number of conversations with many countries that fall into this category.
So there's, I think, a new vista that opens with the successful conclusion of getting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to establish normalized diplomatic relations. And again, I think if you confront Iran, this becomes possible. If you don't confront Iran, it's virtually impossible.
Benjamin Rogers:
I want to zoom out, but before I do, you have, you have explained how you've explained in detail, where the Trump administration may go. You've expressed some criticism of the Biden administration. Is there anything related to Middle East policy that the Biden administration pursued?
Things like the Negev Forum, things like the concept of I2U2, of IMEC, things where do you think those are actually helpful mechanisms that may continue into a Trump administration? Or do you think this is essentially going to be a return to priorities that were started in the first Trump administration?
Rob Greenway:
I think it's going to be more of the latter than the former. Negev ultimately was taking the Abraham Accords and introducing it into a multilateral fora. But the attempt, I think, was ultimately not successful, not because of October the seventh, but because one they made it a diplomatic conference, which we deliberately didn't do with the Abraham Accords. We were more focused on getting the businessmen together and the parts of the government that dealt with trade and concrete relationships, because that's what they wanted.
So we didn't try and impose a forum on them. We tried to allow it to grow organically in the areas where they were interested, and, frankly, where you could measure the progress. I mean, as you know, having a diplomatic conference is not a difficult thing to do. Having one with an outcome might be a bit of a challenge. So we were inclined to approach it from an economic perspective. Ultimately, we'd like to see it get to the security domain. I think there is a difference. But again, it's an extension of the Accords that were built during the Trump administration.
They also intended to insert the Palestinian issue into the equation, and they worked to get it introduced into the forum. I don't know the wisdom behind it, and ultimately, I think it became an impediment, but I will say that ultimately, they did come to the conclusion the Abraham Accords was a good thing. The Abraham Accords was beneficial to the region, and the region wanted to see the US invested in it.
Unfortunately, I think it came too late, and it was overshadowed by the intrinsic policy contradiction of feeding Iran and attempting to deal with the consequences of it. So you can't feed the greatest threat to instability in the region and attempt to work together towards normalization at the same time, the two objectives are in complete opposition to one another. And so they were working across purposes, and the region saw it, and I think they were unable to get progress because of it.
Sudan is probably the only accord member country that unfortunately has collapsed into virtual civil war, which was again a very tragic and unnecessary result of bad policy choice. And it can and it must be reversed. And I trust the Trump second Trump administration would make that a priority as well.
Benjamin Rogers:
I'm happy to hear that, because that's an area that we have focused on, and I think absolutely heartbreaking to see what's unfolding in Sudan right now.
I'd be remiss if I didn't make a plug for AJC Center for a New Middle East, which is something our CEO Ted Deutch announced in June, and essentially our concept is, let's take the decades of trust that AJC has cultivated over the last 70+ years. Let's take the network that we have in places like Europe, in the Middle East, with our office in Abu Dhabi and in Jerusalem. We have offices across Asia. We've got offices in Africa.
How can we use that architecture to be a helpful model in bringing people together? So I wanted to ask you, as someone with so much experience on this, what role do you see for civil society organizations in being able to help cultivate, reinvigorate, bring together more hope to a region that is really reeling?
Rob Greenway:
Having come from the Abraham Accords Peace Institute, where this was our purpose, and having worked with your offices and your organization and many others, I'm convinced that there is an absolute necessity for private organizations to help contribute to and to ensure that there's continuity and successes are sustained. Especially in the people to people contact, but areas like education, in sports and athletics, enormous potential. And it will require private organizations. This is one of many areas where government doesn't do it well. So I think government has opened a door. It can open others.
Private organizations ultimately are going to determine success and failure, and that includes, of course, businesses. So I think it's absolutely essential, and I think that organizations like AJC and others are uniquely positioned to be able to translate the potential into concrete success in a number of different fronts that either government can't do or it's just not well equipped to do.
So 100% agree, and in fact, again, this is too, where more people external to the region can really make a contribution, and small ways can have a massive impact. And we had the luxury of being able to work on a number. And we saw the fruits of that, and I think we'll continue to see. Some of them take decades to materialize, but it's worth it.
Benjamin Rogers:
Amazing. Thanks, Rob. So I promised I would zoom out a little bit, because I know you're not only an expert in the Middle East, but look at the whole globe. Outside of the Middle East, where do you think when it comes to foreign affairs, the Trump administration will be focused? How will it address issues like Russia, Ukraine? How will it address issues like China?
Rob Greenway:
So if you just consider the staggering array of security challenges that the new Trump administration is going to inherit and confront, it can be overwhelming. For two reasons. First, because it's happening on virtually every continent, right, in every cardinal direction you look, there’s not just a crisis, but in many cases, a conflict that is unprecedented or hasn't been seen at this level in a generation. First land war in Europe since the Second World War, a Middle East that hasn't been this unstable since, I think at least 1979, perhaps earlier. These are generational challenges. And I could add to that, of course, China in both the first second island chains and the potential threat against Taiwan. Massive challenges to the international order and the US vital national security interests.
Number two, they're not just connected in a temporal space. Yes, unfortunately, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, are working together in unprecedented ways. The provision of ballistic missiles and drones from Iran, nuclear technology going in the other direction. All horrible. But the fact that they are connected in ways that are impossible to segregate, so you can't solve one problem while you're waiting to solve the other two. Because the solution to each is integrated to the problem in the other.
And energy, as I mentioned already, is just one of those ways, and perhaps one of the most important.
So if you want to restore maximum economic pressure against Iran–and we have to–you're going to be taking them gradually off the international market. Without disrupting prices in everyone's economies, including ours, you've got to compensate for it. There are ways to do it, but Russia is an exporter too, and China is a consumer. So you think about the sequencing behind how to confront these challenges, it is going to be absolutely one of the most complex I think any presidential administration has faced. And again, economic insecurity is integral. And I say that too, because the Trump administration thankfully at the top, with the President himself and many of his trusted advisors and cabinet officials come from a business background, and they understand the economics, because that's the world in which they grew up in. As well as the security domain.
And I think they're uniquely configured to be able to solve this. And they have the experience of working in these regions. A daunting series of challenges. And I think all of us watching this progress need to give them time and patience, because the scope of these challenges are massive. And I didn't mention, you know, the interior crisis at the border and the millions of illegal immigrants, tens of thousands of which are terrorists or known criminals. And that just adds to the complexity, and also can't be addressed in isolation. So massive challenges, all of them connected, security and economic standpoint, and it's going to take time, but this team and the president, I think, are uniquely postured to be able to do it.
Benjamin Rogers:
Rob, I really want to thank you for everything today. Before we conclude, any final thoughts?
Rob Greenway:
So I'd like to end again on a positive note, because it's easy to get distracted with the crises. The solution to these problems are what make them possible. Seeing the potential is what gives you the drive, the resolve, to fix it, and it also makes it possible. So if there wasn't a good solution to these problems, they would persist.
The reality is that integrating the Middle East and Israel and its neighbors and connecting global markets is key to solving these problems. It's also what's going to prevent it from happening again. If we can lean into it and do it successfully and follow through on what was started, we'll be able to see not only a cessation of these problems, we'll be able to see a real improvement in regional quality of life, and hopefully peace and prosperity will again dominate, rather than conflict and chaos.
Benjamin Rogers:
Alright Rob, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.
Rob Greenway:
My great pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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Supporting lone soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)—those serving without immediate family in Israel—has never been more crucial. These soldiers face challenges such as language barriers, adjusting to a new culture, and coping with the emotional and physical demands of service, all while navigating feelings of loneliness, especially during holidays.
This Thanksgiving, hear from lone soldiers Kerren Seidner and Nate LeRoy about their experiences and how they support fellow soldiers through Ach Gadol (Big Brother), an organization dedicated to helping those serving without family support.
Resources:
Ach Gadol: Big Brother Organization for Lone Soldiers
Be Kind As Omer Balva Instagram page
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
The ICC Issues Arrest Warrants: What You Need to Know
What President-Elect Trump’s Nominees Mean for Israel, Antisemitism, and More
What the Election Results Mean for Israel and the Jewish People
The Jewish Vote in Pennsylvania: What You Need to Know
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePodYou can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Nate LeRoy and Kerren Seidner:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Lone soldiers are members of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) who don't have immediate family to support them while they're serving. They face many challenges, including learning Hebrew, adapting to a new culture, and the physical and emotional demands of IDF service. And it may come as no surprise that lone soldiers also experience loneliness, especially on holidays celebrated back home.
For two decades, AJC Jerusalem has held a special Thanksgiving dinner for lone soldiers. But after the Hamas terror attacks on October 7, 2023 as many lone soldiers were dispatched across the country, AJC sent boxes of sweets and other Thanksgiving delicacies to 48 lone soldiers deployed at different bases.
Here to talk about why they served as lone soldiers, and the unique way they have volunteered their services since October 7, are two former lone soldiers, Kerren Seidner and Nate LeRoy.
Kerren, Nate, welcome to People of the Pod.
Nate LeRoy:
Hi, thank you for having me.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Kerren, I'll start with you, if you wouldn't mind sharing with listeners your back story. You were born in China, and then an Israeli couple living in the United States adopted you.
Kerren Seidner:
Correct. So I was adopted around 11 months old, both my parents, my Israeli Jewish family, my parents, they were living in Los Angeles, California at the time. They adopted me. They went to China to come adopt me, and I have an older brother who is biological to my parents. And then I grew up, my entire family, in a Jewish Israeli home.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And so had you ever been to Israel? What inspired you to go to Israel for the first time and then later to serve?
Kerren Seidner:
For me, I always grew up in Israeli household. Growing up with the Israeli culture. I heard Hebrew every single day in my life. Although I did not learn Hebrew, my parents did not teach me.
I think the first time I went to Israel was for my brother's Bar Mitzvah when I was six years old, and so ever since then, we would always go to Israel for the summer vacation. So I always grew up going to Israel. I've always been in touch with all my family and cousins, aunts and uncles that I have here in Israel.
But I never thought I would ever come to Israel to serve until the age 18, where you grew up in American house, like in the American lifestyle, where at age 18, you need to decide if you want to go to college or university, or figure out what you want to do in life. So then I started thinking, You know what, maybe studying in Israel might be an option.
But then my older brother, decided that he had just decided to draft to the army. So I thought maybe that might be a possibility for myself. And then overnight, it just kind of happened that I wanted to make Aliyah and draft to the army. My mom said, you know, you should be a combat soldier. It was very new at that time for girls to be in combat.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So why did she encourage you to do combat?
Kerren Seidner:
Growing up, I've always done sports. I played soccer for 11 years. So I was always active. And I think my mom knew, coming from my dad, because most of the time I would spend with my dad, my mom in our household was different, where my mom was out working and my dad was a stay at home dad mostly.
So I was always with him, and I always heard the stories of him being an officer in combat, and then right at age 16, my brother had just drafted to Said Golani. So hearing all these stories, my mom just knew it was very fitting for me to go to combat as well.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Nate, you grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, and did you first come to Israel on a gap year, or had you been before?
Nate LeRoy:
So my first trip to Israel was actually with my Jewish day school. We have a small, strong Jewish day school in Charleston called Addelstone Hebrew Academy. Every eighth grade there does each year, does a trip. So that was my first experience in Israel. I came back with Young Judea on a summer program before senior year of high school, and then lived here on my gap year, Young Judea Year Course immediately after high school as well.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And then what drew you to serve as a lone soldier?
Nate LeRoy:
I think a huge part of it, like Kerren was talking about, was growing up with, for me, it wasn't an Israeli family, but a really strong, close, tight knit community in Charleston. And I have to give a lot of credit to Young Judea as well, especially to Camp Judea, where I grew up in just an extremely Zionist, welcoming, loving environment. And we had dozens of Israelis working on our staff every summer.
So having that kind of constant flood growing up of Israelis each summer, even if it wasn't in the house. Camp is really that home for a month each year, especially later on in high school, working there, and ultimately the gap year as well. Being here, living here for a year, being able to experience Israel, really feeling like you get kind of absorbed into society, was a huge part of it.
And I kind of looked around at the time, at Israelis my age, and felt okay, I'm 18 years old. They're 18 years old. We hear all the time that Israel is the Jewish nation, the Jewish state. We never hear that it's the Israeli nation, the Israeli state. So why do only the people who are born here have to serve?
And I kind of felt like, for me, the best way to do something and to serve the Jewish people and the Jewish state in Israel was through the army. And kind of like, my service for myself was also mandatory, and that was the path I chose, was to serve through that way.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And what year did you serve Nate?
Nate LeRoy:
I drafted in 2020.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In 2020, and then served until when?
Nate LeRoy:
I served until the end of 2021, through the Machal program. Which allows you to draft before you make Aliyah, so you do a shortened service of 18 months.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And then, Kerren, when did you serve?
Kerren Seidner:
I drafted December 2019.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And served for how long?
Kerren Seidner:
Until August 2022.
Manya Brachear Pashman
And so you said, Kerren, that you wanted to be, you sought to be in combat. Did you see combat as an IDF soldier?
Kerren Seidner:
Yes, I was in Ariot Ha’edan. It's a coed unit in Israel. It's a regular reconnaissance unit, like Golani, Tzanchanim, but coed, and we're just mostly on the border, so the main underneath the unit Kchi Gvulot, so that translates to Border Patrol. So there's other units like Caracal, which was very much known in the recent war, and Bardelas, they're on the borders, mostly with Egypt. I was on the Jordanian border within the West Bank.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And Nate, how did you serve? Or where did you serve?
Nate LeRoy:
I served in Golani, in dud chamishim v’achat. So the 51st brigade. And we serve kind of all around. We did our training in the Merkaz Israel, the middle of Israel, in the north, and then served on various borders, on Gaza and up north and throughout the West Bank as well.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Now, are you both in reserves now?
Nate LeRoy:
I currently serve in reserves. I'm not at this moment, I finished reserves in the summer. We were in Gaza for two months with my unit most recently.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And Kerren, how about you? Are you still a reservist?
Kerren Seidner:
Yes, from October 7. I served about two months, and then I got released for about half a year, and then I just did about two months in the summer as well.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
All right. And can you say where?
Kerren Seidner:
They put me wherever they need. In the first part, I moved eight times in the span of two months. So wherever they put me.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
When you're not serving, when you're not fighting or seeing combat, you volunteer in a very unique way. Can you tell our listeners how you have continued to serve those who are in the IDF?
Kerren Seidner:
For me, for us, we volunteer with Ach Gadol. It's a special program where people like us, who are post lone soldiers who, we have lone soldiers who are currently serving, and we mentor them throughout their entire service. I currently have three soldiers, and two of them are actually combat soldiers.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And Nate?
Nate LeRoy:
Yeah. So like Kerren said, it's a great summary. Ach Gadol, which means big brother, can translate it to big sister as well. We both volunteer with the organization. I have the privilege of being volunteering in a lone soldier house in Tel Aviv as well. So it's just a place where lone soldiers can stay on the weekends when they're off base, if they don't have a place to go, or some of them who might do kind of daily jobs where they go to and from their army service each day. If they're in intelligence, they can stay there as well if it's closer to base. So I volunteered there a little bit, and have a little brother.
It's funny to say, because he's my age. We actually both overlapped at Tulane University in the States for a year, but didn't meet each other, and so we got here and got matched through the organization, so he's my one little brother right now, and it's been great. It's a great way to have a connection with someone.
I personally received a lot of help from the generations before me. And I think most lone soldiers did because you really can't do this by yourself. As funny as that is being called a lone soldier, you really can't do it alone. And it's just great. It felt definitely like the right thing to do, to turn around and give it to the current generation and future generations.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
What do lone soldiers need now, that's different from when you served?
Nate LeRoy:
I think a lot of the challenges stay the same. In terms of, you encounter adulthood all of a sudden, when you get here, in terms of finding an apartment, figuring out how to live your life by yourself, figuring out all that sort of adulthood stuff. And on top of it, you have the army, which is a massive thing to navigate, a massive language issue.
And I think right now I'll speak personally with my own relationship with the person I volunteer with, with Josh, when you throw war on top of that, which by itself, is more than enough to deal with, you know, how can you figure out your apartment in your contract when you've been in Gaza for the last two months? How can you figure out, you know, you have to leave combat in a war zone and go back and do your own laundry? And it's those little things that really make a difference. Where someone who is Israeli and has a family here and has the support they need, you know, they go back and they're in that support circle.
And no matter what you come back from, even if you come back from, you know, when I was serving just the most regular week in the army, when you come back and you just want to check out for the weekend and be with your friends, and you have this kind of list of errands piling up, it's difficult.
And coming back from combat, from war, from fighting, from losing friends, you know, it just 100 times more difficult. I think it's super important to make sure people have the support they need in all of those things, and also know that they have the space to talk about stuff and to share things that are difficult for them, and to reach out to someone who's going through similar things.
Kerren Seidner:
For me, it's a very deep question, but I think that, like how Nate said the whole thing about being a lone soldier, no matter times of war or normal times. We like to say normal times, but it's still hard. You need the support no matter what I think, especially just during the times of this war, and in any war, just the mental because I feel like, having to have been in miluim, I also struggled with it as well, going to miluim, being in the duty of being in the Army and that mindset as a soldier, and then coming home to civilian life, it's very different.
Especially then you come to civilian life, and I'm here, like in Herzliya, and you also don't feel necessarily safe, because you have also rockets all the time, like I had one this morning as well. So it's really can be scary at times, but I think what's so special about Israel, we have the support from one another, not just from people like me, who was a lone soldier trying to help out with other lone soldiers, but just random civilians on the street, really just uplifting.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Can you kind of describe what you're talking about? What do you mean by that?
Kerren Seidner:
I think for me, ever since I moved to Israel, I say, Israel is definitely home, the people here are very different. I grew up in the Los Angeles area, so I really feel like there was very materialistic. But I think there's so many people that just want to help one another. And I really seen that a lot throughout the war, even through my service, being a lone soldier, people would just hand me money left and right. People constantly are asking, Do you have a place for Shabbat to not feel alone on Shabbat, which means a lot.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And what about Thanksgiving and other holidays that you traditionally celebrated in Los Angeles or in Charleston. How have you been able to mark those occasions in Israel?
Nate LeRoy:
I think for me, in going off of a big thing, Kerren spoke about. I also lived in Herzliya during my service, and there's a fantastic self made group of just moms and dads and everyday people from the community there of Israelis who, whenever we'd go home, especially on holidays, Rosh Hashanah and stuff, people would either volunteer to host us, or a lot of times we just receive Friday afternoon, someone would come by. They have a list of all of our addresses, if we're in this group chat, and they just drop off home cooked meals and say, you know, this Friday night, you and your roommates, have this Shabbat dinner. Enjoy. Don't worry about cooking. And having that home cooked meal, even if it's not my mom, you know, mom's cooking. It's a great feeling and a great experience.
And another thing that I've had, and I’ve been super fortunate to and I know a lot of us do as well. A lot of lone soldiers. Is in the absence of your immediate family, your friends really become your family. And I'm still lucky to this day to have people who I met during my time in the army and I served with who, we’re still in touch. We still hang out together, and some of us, Thanksgiving specifically, you know people who can get home, and it works out with work, they go, and I'm jealous of them. I wish I could as well, but we do our best to cook a great Thanksgiving dinner. And turkeys are a little hard to come by here, but we get a couple of rotisserie chickens, and a bird's a bird, and we try to do the best we can to have this sort of family experiences and family holidays.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Kerren, how about you? Do you mark Thanksgiving in any particular way or other holidays?
Kerren Seidner:
For me, Thanksgiving, honestly, I don't think I do, only because for me, every Friday night is like Thanksgiving to me. For me, yom shishi, the arcuchat shihi is super important for me. I because we are lone soldiers. I always try to make sure I spend it with friends who how, like Nate said, it's become like family. So living here in Herzliya, there is a big community of people, olim like myself. So we became like a little family of our own. So I would always do Shabbat together, or I am in touch with, when I moved here and did the army, I had a host family. So I am still in touch with my host family from the army. And I see them. They just live in the north in a moshav. So it's kind of hard for me to get there all the time, but I try to celebrate the Hebrew holidays, the Jewish holidays, mostly.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do your families get to Israel throughout the year? Have they traveled there to see you, even if you aren't able to get to, back to Los Angeles or Charleston to see them?
Kerren Seidner:
For me, my dad was really nervous when the war first broke out and Nefesh b’Nefesh opened up flights for one parent to come to Israel for lone soldiers. So he was able to get one of those flights and was able to see me during the war. And then my mom came not too long after that for a wedding, our cousin's wedding was canceled throughout the war, so it was postponed, and so she came for our cousin's wedding. But I haven't gone home in a year and a half, so I'm luckily going back in February to visit.
Nate LeRoy:
My family was able to come to visit at the end of my service, which was really important for me, for them to be able to see me. I guess we both, you drafted just a few months before me, but we both served during COVID.
Kerren Seidner:
Yeah.
Nate LeRoy:
Which is just also just, I mean, now, nothing compares to serving now, but it was a super weird, wild time of all sorts of closures and rules and different things. So for my family to be able to come after the kind of general lockdown and everything of COVID was really great for them, to be able to be here while I was in the army, and they haven't been able to come visit since then, but they still want to, and still will. I think sometime in this coming year, my parents may be able to come out to visit.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And when was the last time you went to Charleston?
Nate LeRoy:
I was lucky enough. I was able to go back a few months ago, when I finished my reserve service, over the summer, I went back for a little bit to see my family and see some friends.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
What did you gain from serving in the IDF?
Nate LeRoy:
I think it's kind of immeasurable to an extent. I think that the person I was when I went in, it's still very much the person I am now. But you experienced so much, and you changed so much. And I drafted at 21 years of age, but growing so much over those kind of really formative years, but I think that I learned more about myself than I ever expected to. I learned about the importance of commitment to other people and the reaffirmment of committing to the greater good.
And I think something I learned about people is just always, always to give people the benefit of the doubt and to know that people usually do try their best and they have their best intentions in mind, and to give them the space to be able to show that, improve that, you're in a lot of really just within your team and people you're shoulder to shoulder. You know, you never get a minute by yourself, and it gets very intense. A lot of situations with you or the people you serve with.
But just learning to kind of give them that space and trust people and know that they want what's best for you and you want what's best for them, no matter how much each moment might get kind of chippy at certain points. It's something that you can only really experience through those tougher, tougher ordeals.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Kerren, what did you take away from your service in the IDF?
Kerren Seidner:
I think for me, it was really hard. I was going through a lot. I also, when I first moved to Israel, I was 18, and I didn't necessarily want to leave LA at that moment, I was finally in a friend group where I felt like I belonged. So it was really hard for me to have just decided to move across the country or the world, not the country, and I didn't really know the language.
So it was still hard, which is always going to be a little hard, but then getting put somewhere in the middle of nowhere, not knowing anything. I think I definitely change in a way that I've opened up a lot more. I was very closed off. And I tell people all the time, like my friends today, they didn't know me when I was 18, and I was very closed off. I don't even think I would be doing something like this even today. And in the army, you're just put with a bunch of girls, and you don't know the full language, but you just got to get to know them. And I even tell my friends today that the girls who are with me in the army, who are my best friends today, hang out with them all the time.
And they will even say that the first year, I did not talk to them, and I think because we were stuck in quarantine for two weeks, we were forced to spend time.
I had to just open up and actually get to know them. And I regretted not getting to know them earlier, and I'm so much happier that I open up and reach out. And that's something with Ach Gadol, where you just kind of maybe need to make that extra step, the first step, because there's new lone soldiers today who are just maybe scared to do that first step because they're in a new country, and we've been there before.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I asked you both what you gained from your time in the IDF, but it is a sacrifice. For which we are very grateful that you made. What did you lose by serving in the IDF? What did you sacrifice?
Nate LeRoy:
I think, without the risk of being overly cheesy, I feel very lucky to have had a great service and to have experienced the army in a I got lucky, and I had a great service. And there are a lot of people around me who weren't so lucky, and kind of you know, things didn't fall their way, and they had a less good service or a bad service to a certain extent. So I'm very fortunate. That I can say I didn't lose anything that I wasn't willing to and I didn't know I was going to sacrifice beforehand. I did a year at Tulane before, and chose to leave that behind and come and do the army, and knew I had finished my studies at some point, which I'm doing now.
And I guess I lost, you know, two or three more years of partying in college in the States and a lot of experiences with close friends, who I'm fortunate to still be close with. But that's a decision and choice that I made, and knew I was making when I came over here. And, you know, a couple of Mardi Gras would have been great. COVID softened the blow a little that it, you know, they were canceled or didn't happen to the full extent. But again, I'm just fortunate to have. You know, only missed the experiences that I thought I would be able to miss.
Kerren Seidner:
Yeah, I honestly, I think I lucked out, that I really enjoyed my service, and I don't regret anything about it. And I always say that I'm, I'm going to stay here in Israel forever. This is home. I always say, like to my friends who are drafting now and to my soldiers now that: I'll support them no matter what. If they have any regrets, or if they went to combat and they regretted that decision, or any other decision.
I really do believe God has a path for every single person, and I think that we make mistakes, we have to learn, and we may regret some things, but I think that doing the army was the path that I was meant to do, and I don't regret any of it.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
One more question for you both, and that is, I asked you, what you lost from serving in the IDF, but so many people lost loved ones and friends on October 7. Did you lose anyone, or know anyone who was killed or kidnapped on October 7?
Kerren Seidner:
For me, not on October 7. I have a friend of mine. His name is Omer Balva. They actually have an Instagram page called Be Kind as Omer. And we did Garin Tzabar together. He was in the Moshav next to me. And he actually started university with me at the same time, so that was really hard for me. And I was able to go to his funeral. That was the first time I was out of miluim.
And then throughout, after I got released in July, my mifached, unfortunately, was killed in a motorcycle accident, and he did miluim and everything. It was just very unfortunate to have lost him in such an unfortunate way. And then a far relative cousin on my dad's side is actually kidnapped still to this day.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I want to let listeners know you are referring to your cousin Tzachi Idan. Kerren, I hope you don’t mind me sharing that his 18-year-old daughter Ma’ayan was murdered in their home on October 7 before her father was taken into Gaza. In fact, she was helping her father hold the door to the safe room closed and she was shot through the door. It is a horrific story.
Thank you, Kerren, for sharing that about your friend and your cousin. Nate?
Nate LeRoy:
So I was fortunate to not have anyone that I was close with who passed away on the seventh. There were several people I served with kind of an extended, extended relationship with, or distant relationship with, who passed away fighting in the Kibbutzim in the south and about a month after the seventh, someone in my extended family, one of my cousins, a lone soldier from Atlanta, Rose Lubin, was killed in a terrorist attack in Jerusalem, and actually, this coming week is her the yard site for the first time. So a lot of the family, a lot of family on her side, live here in Israel. So everyone's kind of has a fantastic week of really meaningful, important events taking place. Everyone's coming over for it from the States as well, so it'll be a really meaningful, moving week to remember her.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Thank you both so very much for your service, for all you've done to and you're doing to support the soldiers, especially at this time. Thank you both for joining us.
Nate LeRoy:
Thank you. And just one last thing, anyone who's interested in Ach Gadol wants to find us online. I'm sure there'll be a link somewhere with this podcast, but feel free to search us on Google or wherever Ach Gadol or in Hebrew, Ach Gadol L’Ma’an Chayalim Bodedim, and thank you so much for having me on the show.
Kerren Seidner:
What he said. Thank you.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week’s episode, tune in for my conversation with Belle Yoeli, AJC’s Chief Advocacy Officer, about the International Criminal Court’s charges against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. She explains why regardless of political views about this Israeli administration, the charges tied to Israel’s defense operations in Gaza are unjust.
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The International Criminal Court (ICC) announced arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, accusing them of crimes tied to Israel’s defense operations in Gaza. Why should supporters of Israel—regardless of political views—reject these accusations?
Belle Yoeli, AJC’s Chief Advocacy Officer, explains why the ICC's charges are not only baseless but also undermine justice, distort international law, and fuel harmful narratives following the deadliest antisemitic attack since the Holocaust.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
What President-Elect Trump’s Nominees Mean for Israel, Antisemitism, and More
What the Election Results Mean for Israel and the Jewish People
The Jewish Vote in Pennsylvania: What You Need to Know
Go Deeper – AJC Analysis:
Statement: American Jewish Committee Appalled by ICC’s Issuance of Arrest Warrants Against Israelis
Explainer: What You Need to Know About the ICC and the Israel-Hamas War
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePodYou can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Belle Yoeli:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
The International Criminal Court announced on Thursday that it issued arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former defense minister. You have Galant as well as Hamas terrorist Mohammed, if the Court said it had found reasonable grounds to believe that Netanyahu and Galant quote, each bear criminal responsibility for starvation as a method of warfare and crimes against humanity, end quote. All tied to Israel's military operations in Gaza focused on defeating Hamas terrorists, securing the return of the 101 remaining hostages and preventing more attacks.
Here to talk about why the court is prosecuting Israel's leaders for its defense operation after the country suffered the deadliest antisemitic attack since the Holocaust, and why that's dangerous, is Belle Yoeli, AJC’s Chief advocacy officer. Belle, welcome to People of the Pod.
Belle Yoeli:
Thanks so much, Manya.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do Belle, why have warrants been issued for Netanyahu and Gallant.
Belle Yoeli:
Right. So first and foremost, I just want to make it abundantly clear, and it really needs to be said, that this decision is absolutely outrageous. It's a gross distortion of international law and so many other things. It undermines the credibility of the court, and it fuels a lot of malicious lies about the state of Israel and its self defensive activities in Gaza since October 7.
I will share the Court's reasoning for the warrants, and you alluded to it, quote, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least the eighth of October, until at least the 20th of May 2024. The court claims they found reasonable grounds that Netanyahu and Gallant, again, quote, bear criminal responsibility for the following crimes as co-perpetrators for committing the acts jointly with others. The war crime of starvation as a method of warfare, and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution and other inhumane acts. That's the direct quote, obviously very hard to read.
And of course, AJC fundamentally rejects these claims, as do the United States and many, many leading international law and warfare experts. This is just a total and complete failure of justice.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So why should supporters of Israel stand firmly against this accusation, no matter what their political views are? In other words, if they're not fans of Netanyahu, but they are ardent supporters of Israel, why should they stand firm against this?
Belle Yoeli:
Yeah, it's an important question, and we have to be clear. I mean, the court has politicized this by sort of taking this unprecedented action. But this is not about political issues, it’s not about Netanyahu or Gallant. This is about the truth. This is about right and wrong, and the claims that are being made here are so outrageous and malicious. I mean, Israel is not intentionally starving Palestinian civilians or committing crimes. It just doesn't make sense.
If it were, it would not be facilitating tons and tons of aid into the Gaza Strip every day, not to mention polio vaccines. I mean, the list goes on and on. Israel, like any other country, is defending itself, and not just in Gaza against Hamas, but on seven fronts, including Hezbollah and Lebanon, against Iranian proxies.
And look, we've said it from the beginning, since Israel responded in this self defensive way, and we'll say it again: civilians die in war, and that is a terrible, horrible thing. But Israel is fighting its war in Gaza in response to Hamas' actions on October 7. It's about bringing the hostages home and preventing the ability of Hamas to attack Israeli civilians.
And it's been said by many experts that Israel is conducting itself in this war in an unprecedented manner, in a positive way. And I know that's hard for people to grasp, because, again, people have died, Palestinians have died, and, yes, civilians have died, and that's terrible. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Israel is trying to prevent civilian death and why it's fighting this war, and none of that has to do with intentionally harming civilians.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So I want to back up here and talk about who is actually pressing these charges, who is actually issuing these warrants and making these accusations in this case. For people who may not be familiar or they may be confused between the International Criminal Court and another international court, the International Court of Justice, which has a separate case against Israel and is connected to the United Nations. So what is the International Criminal Court? How is it different than the ICJ?
Belle Yoeli:
So you mean, not everybody is a legal scholar? It’s quite confusing, and I'm grateful for my colleagues who have really helped us try to explain this to everyone, and I'll try to break it down for you as simply as I can. So the ICC is an independent, international judicial tribunal. It's based in the Hague, and it was created in 2002 by the Rome Statute.
And that's a treaty that essentially spells out what crimes this specific body, the ICC, should investigate and adjudicate when it can. And the ICC’s jurisdiction is essentially that it can prosecute individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and aggression. That's four categories.
And it's allowed to prosecute not just state actors, but also non-state actors. And when you think about the ICC, as colleagues have explained to me, you really are supposed to think about it as a court of last resort. So when you think about national legal systems, and respecting the right that sovereign states have their own courts and that should be respected, the ICC would step in when an important crime or a crime did not get prosecuted.
That's what this body is meant for, and again, trying to respect sovereign states. Now, by contrast, the ICJ is the judicial arm of the UN, the United Nations, and the ICJ is supposed to settle legal disputes between states, and it also can issue opinions upon requests by UN entities. So there are two different bodies, two very different purposes.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So is Israel a member of the ICC?
Belle Yoeli:
So Israel is not a member of the ICC. And this is actually sort of interesting. Israel was involved in drafting the Rome Statute that I mentioned, that created the ICC, that treaty. But things got a little complicated, which is not so surprising when you hear why. Essentially, the ICC, as we discussed, was intended to focus on these most heinous crimes, right?
But eventually the entity was urged by several Arab countries, and the majority of the countries that are party to the ICC agreed, to add as one of the categories of things that can be investigated and prosecuted, the transfer of civilians into occupied territory. And so if you hear that, I'm sure a ping goes off, obviously based on Israel and its situation and dynamics in the region. Israel took this as a sign that countries were aiming to distort the purpose of the body and really to try to just prosecute Israelis for actions in the West Bank, for example. So it ended up refraining from joining.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So now, countries cannot be prosecuted by the ICC, right? I mean, I understand that Israel as a country can't be prosecuted, but Israelis can be, and that's why the warrants issued named Netanyahu and Gallant.
Belle Yoeli:
So technically, the body is supposed to go after individuals. But the question here, of the warrants is about jurisdiction, right? And clearly there's a disagreement. The Israelis, the United States and others have said that the ICC has no jurisdiction over, you know, for the warrants they've issued. And AJC agrees.
The Palestinians and actually, the court itself have said that it's based on certain technicalities which are actually quite complicated, and you can read about in our explainer on our website about this subject, that there is jurisdiction. But for me, the thing that is most clear here is that as we reference, Israel has a strong, independent judiciary, and even when it comes to the conflict. Most recent conflicts is October 7, Israel's own military Advocate General has in fact, opened dozens of investigations into incidents.
So when you consider the fact that Israel has a mechanism for investigating things that are happening in Gaza, that in itself, should tell everyone that the ICC has no jurisdiction here based on its own treaty. So yes, these warrants were issued, but from our perspective, there's really no jurisdiction.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Okay, so would you say the fog of war makes this almost impossible to adjudicate, or is this, in your eyes, an open and shut case? Is it abundantly clear that Israeli leaders have avoided committing these crimes they're accused of?
Belle Yoeli:
So, I mean, to me, it's open and shut for a few reasons, right? We've mentioned them. One, the ICC has no jurisdiction. Two, the claims are, of the crimes are, are false and really offensive. And, you know, there is, of course, this phrase, the fog of war, and there's always fog in war. But this is really not what it's about. The travesty in all of this is that Israel does so much in an unprecedented environment that shows that the claims that are being made are untrue.
So, yes, the technicalities, yes, there's no jurisdiction. The claims are offensive. But it's more than that. This is so clearly being politicized, because, yes, people are upset about what's happening and the conflict, and we understand that the entire world is reacting, but it's just not true. It's just about truth here, and what the court is suggesting is simply not true, and really targeting Israel in a way that is against justice and is really unheard of.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So here in America, we are amid a leadership transition. Has the response differed between the Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration?
Belle Yoeli:
So from what we've seen so far, I mean, the Biden administration and incoming administration officials from the Trump administration have both spoken out and both rejected the decision outright. You'll see, and I think we'll see in the coming days, there are differences of opinion also in Congress about how to deal with this action. And this been, this has been in conversation, you know, discussion for months when this was first raised, that this could possibly happen, questions around sanctions and different actions that can be taken. But I think we'll know a lot more about concrete potential proposals and next steps in the coming days.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And what about the international community?
Belle Yoeli:
You know, it’s interesting, at this point, when we're as of this recording, the international response has actually been quite muted, and I think that's because countries are trying to balance upholding the respect for the court and the idea of the court and its jurisdiction with this really outrageous decision that I think many of them know is is false and wrong and has really bad implications for what the court is meant to do.
You know, some have been quite clear. Just to name a few, Argentina and Paraguay spoke out forcefully. Some responses have been a bit more murky. I think, trying to thread that needle that I mentioned, like the United Kingdom had a pretty murky response. And actually, the EU high representative who's thankfully on his way out, Joseph Burrell, really fully embraced the decision in a sort of grotesque way. But this isn't new for him. He's fairly problematic on these types of issues. So we'll see how other countries react. You know, more things are in play, and I'm sure Israel and the United States are having close conversations with allies. I think the US even alluded to that, and we'll have a better sense of what's to come soon.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And so what does this mean for Israel and for the ongoing Israel-Hamas war?
Belle Yoeli:
I mean, I don't have a crystal ball. I can say, look, it remains to be seen what will happen next. I think countries who are party to the ICC need to do the right thing. They need to reject the jurisdiction and really refuse to enforce the warrants. That's the most important piece here. That's what we're hoping to see.
I think we'll see that international pressure likely be applied by the United States and others. But the bigger picture here, I mean, again, it speaks to the travesty that I spoke about before. It's this larger attempt to delegitimize Israel and really discredit and slander Israel, I would even go so far to say, is just unjust, and it fuels all of the disinformation that we're seeing.
And what does that lead to? It leads to hate. It leads to hate against Israelis, and let's be honest, it puts Jews around the world at risk at a time when there's already surging antisemitism. This isn't new. Look at what happened in Amsterdam.
So more broadly, this just, this hits. This is an issue and so problematic in so many ways, and it just, it does so much harm and the ideals of democracy and the ideas of justice, it's really unprecedented and unforgivable.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do you think it gets in the way of bringing the hostages home?
Belle Yoeli:
Unfortunately, the reality is that it's been difficult enough as it is to bring the hostages home, and we just haven't seen movement in negotiations. And obviously we're praying for that every day. I couldn't tell you how this will impact that. I don't, I don't see an immediate connection. I think, look, we need to be clear that every action like this contributes to a feeling in Israel of already, sort of, as they say in conflict negotiation or resolution speak. like a siege mentality, right? Israelis feel under attack. The government likely feels under attack, and so it certainly doesn't help when Israel is trying to defend itself, to carry out war and to bring the hostages home, it certainly doesn't help, but how it will affect actual negotiations, I couldn’t say.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Belle, thank you so much for sharing your insights and trying to explain this to our listeners.
Belle Yoeli:
Thank you so much for having me.
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From Marco Rubio to Elise Stefanik: who are the nominations that President-elect Trump has announced, and what does their selection say about how the administration may take shape? Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs reviews the names announced thus far, how, if confirmed, they could impact efforts to counter antisemitism, support Israel, and uphold democratic values, and how AJC is advocating to advance these critical issues.
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Go Deeper – AJC Analysis:
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AJC Briefing — Post-Election Analysis: What to Expect Under the New U.S. Administration | Tuesday, November 19 | 1:30 p.m. Eastern | Register Here
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Transcript of Conversation with Julie Fishman Rayman:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
President Elect Donald Trump has named and nominated eight of the 24 officials, including his chief of staff, most of whom would make up his cabinet. Returning to discuss the nominees so far and where they stand on AJC missions of fighting antisemitism, defending Israel and safeguarding democracy, is AJC Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs, Julie Fishman Rayman. Julie, welcome back to People of the Pod.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Thanks for having me, Manya, glad to be here.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So you have worked with some of these nominees, and you know their track record on these issues. First of all, from a 30,000-40,000 foot view, what is your overall take on the slate so far?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
I feel like if you had asked me that yesterday, I would have had a totally different answer. And so I imagine even by the time People of the {od airs, my answer maybe would have even changed, so I will answer, but I want everyone, including our listeners, to take it with a grain of salt that I am speaking from a very specific moment in tim while the clock is rapidly changing and the situation is rapidly changing. So I think the initial slate of potential nominees that were announced gave a lot of folks, especially in sort of the foreign policy world, a good deal of comfort, right?
So people like Representative Mike Waltz, people like Senator Marco Rubio, those types of folks. Even Governor Huckabee, are sort of these, these names of traditional conservatives who we say, Oh, they have a record. They have governed. They have a voting record. We know exactly where they stand and what they believe, and that it's not vastly dissimilar from any other previous Republican administration.
Then, of course, there was the news about the potential coming in of Matt Gaetz, representative, Matt Gaetz, a Republican from Florida and Tulsi Gabbard. And I think those names and what they represent put everyone in a bit of a tailspin. Not simply because of who they are, although they come with a lot of really interesting backstory that we can unpack, if you want to, but not just because of who they are, but because they represent a really different part of the Republican Party.
A really different part of the right wing world view that had not theretofore been represented in Trump's cabinet picks, definitely less of the traditional conservative mindset and much more in line with a, dare I say, like populist kind of perspective. And so there's tension now that people are trying to sort of understand and unravel.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So let's talk about each individual. And you mentioned Marco Rubio, who is Trump's nominee for Secretary of State, the Florida Senator. He currently serves on the Foreign Relations Committee. He's the top Republican on the Intelligence Committee. And I mean, he and the President Elect seem to agree on America's approach to Iran and Ukraine, but not NATO, right? I mean, where do he and Mr. Trump agree and disagree?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
You're asking a question as though we have a full sense of what incoming president, former President Trump believes, which I think is a bit of an assumption. They're certainly deeply aligned on sort of big picture principles as they relate to support for Israel, no question. A tough, tough approach to whether it's an actor like Iran or China, you know, sort of these nefarious global players that seek to disrupt our world order, they're aligned there. There is a potential disconnect on Ukraine. Right? We've heard statements from Senator Rubio recently where you almost see him trying to channel the former president, the president-elect, and say, like, what would Trump say? What would Trump do?
You can like, see the wheels spinning in his mind as he talks about how we have been funding a stalemate and how something needs to change. But I'm not sure that if you put them both in a room and ask them blindfolded, apart from each other, what to do about Ukraine, if you would get the same answer, I think there would probably be a good deal of daylight.
And I think the same could be said about the future of NATO and others. But it all remains to be seen. And then, of course, also will have to be balanced with other forces that are coming into the administration, not least of which Senator JD Vance, colleague of Marco Rubio, who definitely comes with a different sort of world view.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And next on the list, Congresswoman Elise Stefanik of New York, she has been nominated for the role of UN ambassador. We kind of know her as an outspoken supporter of Israel, given her high profile role in the congressional hearings about anti-Israel protests on college campuses after the Hamas terror attacks on October 7.
Those hearings actually led to the resignation of a couple of university presidents. How do you foresee that outspoken support playing out in the UN arena, or maybe even in the Trump administration's approach to higher education?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
In terms of the UN and antisemitism, there will be a lot of very vocal, very strident affirmations that antisemitism is not something that the US will abide. That same sort of force that Congresswoman Stefanik brought to the Education Committee, she will bring to the UN and she won't take any bones about it, and she's not going to sit down to anybody.
Of that we can be sure what that looks like, though, beyond pontification, beyond promulgations of support for the Jewish community across the globe, remains to be seen. Right? How will she engage in a UN that she certainly will perceive to be at least biased towards Israel and possibly antisemitic at its core. Right? We can make that assumption on her world view.
How will she seek to engage with a system that she presumably views as fundamentally flawed? We know that a Republican House and Senate are already sort of gearing up towards cutting funding of major UN institutions, if not the UN across the board. So what does that mean for her role? What does that mean for the voice that the United States will have and the ability for her very strong voice, to even be at the table, and that's sort of where some of that tension arrives is also, do you get in the room? Do you get the seat at the table? Or are you on the menu? Right? The United States is never going to be on the menu, but are we going to, by virtue of our own sort of principles, going to push our seat back in and stand in the hallway. There's a lot of calculi that she's going to have to make there.
In terms of the Department of Education and Congress and how they're dealing with these really important issues that that Congresswoman Stefanik has put at the fore for so long, there's no question that the threat of pulling federal funding that we've heard from the Biden administration repeatedly will be more believed under a future Trump administration. I think there are universities all over the country that already are saying, oh, like, what do we have to do? We don't want to get caught in these crosshairs. What do we need to do to make sure that we are not either under fire with the light shining on us or on the chopping block for federal funding?
So if you're an educational institution that really believes that there is a true threat that you're to your federal funding, you're reconsidering a lot of steps. And if in fact, federal funding is leveraged or cut, I think we have to be really mindful of three things. One, we have to make sure that it doesn't look as though the Jews are behind this crushing blow, because that's scapegoating.
And we have to make sure that shuttering these major academic institutions doesn't foreclose the creation, the necessary creation, of future American doctors and engineers and others. And finally, we have to make sure that we're not creating a void in funding that could really easily be filled by foreign actors that are already known to use university funding to advance a particular ideology, to advance their own interests.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I want to go back to another name you mentioned at the top, and that is the Florida congressman, Michael Waltz. He has been named as National Security Advisor to head up the National Security Council, and he has been a huge champion of the Abraham accords. So what can we expect to see from him if he indeed does take this post.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
So one of the things that I think is really interesting about, you know, looking back on the last trump administration, while we sort of forecast for the next, is that the National Security Council, this body that Mike Waltz will lead, was always the brain trust for him in the previous administration.
Of course, there was the State Department. It was filled, it was supported. But generally, I think he thought of the State Department as a place of a foreign policy bureaucracy, where passports got stamped, that kind of, step by step, day by day, keeping the wheels turning, but not where real change happened.
So if we're, you know, we're talking about Marco Rubio at State, we're talking about Mike Waltz as National Security Advisor, I think we really need to sort of dig into what's Waltz gonna bring. And of course, like, as you said, Manya deeply supportive of Abraham Accords, very hawkish when it comes to China, and very, very embedded in the military establishment himself, right? He's not the DoD pick, but he's a Green Beret vet. He served in Afghanistan, he served in the Middle East. He served in Africa. In addition to being on the foreign affairs committee and Congress, he was on the Armed Services Committee and the Intelligence Committee, if there are, if there's a trifecta of committees that someone could serve on to be as informed and at sort of the pinnacle of information about what's going on in this world, it's those three committees.
Ukraine is the big question mark here. He's criticized aid to Ukraine, and has talked about getting Putin to the negotiating table, getting a diplomatic solution, or some sort of settlement to this war. And that I think remains this major looming question for a lot of folks about, as we're looking at these various picks whose voice is going to win here. Or, you know, if we're channeling the last Trump administration again, who's going to be the last person in his ear before he goes and makes a major announcement.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You mentioned DoD. Let's talk about President Elect Trump's DoD pick. Fox News anchor Pete hegseth, he is a retired US Army Major. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan, but a surprising pick to head the Department of Defense.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
It's interesting that you asked that question, because I think for folks who just think of him as a, you know, the guy on the Fox News couch, everyone who I've talked to who really knows Pete Hegseth and really is engaged with him for a long time, they they're not surprised, and they say, Oh, that does make sense. I don't know how much we can anticipate his fox views translating into a DoD cabinet pick. I don't really know how to manage that, right? He's talked about, like the Joint Chiefs, for example, in sort of a disparaging way.
So, he's definitely one of these picks that you know shows the future President's desire to be at the vanguard, right? He wants to shake things up. He wants to keep people on their toes.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Okay, so now let's move on to some of the names you mentioned that are curious, curious choice. Other curious choices. Former Hawaiian Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, she has been nominated to serve as Trump's chief intelligence advisor, the Director of National Intelligence. That would mean she would be responsible for overseeing 18 spy agencies and keeping the President informed of the nation's international intelligence as anti semitism rises around the world, incidents like what we saw in Amsterdam this past weekend continue to flare up. Do you foresee her prioritizing that kind of news for the president elect?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
This is a position that has to be confirmed by the Senate, and it's not, I think, a slam dunk in a lot of ways. She's not always been a Republican. She certainly hasn't always been a Trumpist Republican. She had a major leadership role in the Democratic Party for quite some time. She was the vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, and not rank and file, she resigned from that position to endorse Bernie Sanders in 2016 she supported the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, the Iran deal that many Democrats broke with the administration to oppose that. AJC opposed, I think that there's a lot of baggage that she brings, and not personal baggage, but policy baggage that might make it very, very difficult for her to make the step through that confirmation process, and someone very smart said that'll be the test. Maybe I'll give him credit. Josh Kraushauer, the editor of Jewish insider, said this will be the test for how Senate leadership is going to respond to the calls from President Trump.
You know, if they're able to just sort of if Senator Thune, in this new role that he has just received is able to push through the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard, then we can expect a lot of confirmations legislation Trump desires to move through the Senate. If she gets a little bit held up. If it's not as easy, then we can anticipate just a little bit more gridlock, as much gridlock as one could expect from one party control of the House, Senate and the White House. But a little bit more of a pushback. It'll be a real test.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
She is nominated to be his chief intelligence advisor, and yet she has posted blatantly false propaganda on her social media channels. And people know that, people have called her out for that. Is that concerning?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
I think it's deeply concerning whenever anyone puts out blatantly false propaganda, particularly that which emanates from Russia, that is problematic at any level of elected official, appointed official, period. We need to constantly, as a society and as a nation, be on fierce guard against that, because it is real and it is pervasive. I anticipate that, you know, when the confirmation hearings are up, there's going to be a lot of questions about, you know, what has she posted, where is she getting her information, and from whom does she rely on for real, authoritative information that is truthful?
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So another name that you mentioned at the top of the conversation, and that is Congressman, well now former Congressman Matt Gaetz from Florida, since he resigned immediately after his nomination for attorney general. He was one of, I think, 21 republicans who voted against the Antisemitism Awareness Act in May, saying he couldn't support a definition of antisemitism that labeled claims of Jews killing Jesus as antisemitic. I think Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel might have had some choice words for him, if he is indeed, if he indeed progresses through this process toward Attorney General, what could we see from him? What can we see, period, of this whole process?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
So first off, I just, I want to speak a little bit about it was sort of him in his record, because I think that it's important for our community to to be refreshed about exactly who Matt Gaetz is it there were a number of Republicans who voted against the Antisemitism Awareness Act because they did not think that it was appropriate for there to be a law that says the Jews didn't kill Jesus. This is, of course, like a sort of gross mischaracterization of what the international Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition of anti semitism says and purports to do. But he wasn't alone. And it was, it was very interesting to see how this, this sort of trope that I think a lot of us thought was over about the Jews killing Jesus. You know, Nostra Aetate was in the 70s, right? So we thought that this was done and behind us. But to hear, particularly from the evangelical set, that, okay, like, maybe the Jews didn't kill Jesus, or maybe they did.
He also invited a Holocaust denier and a white supremacist to be his guest at the State of the Union later, he said, like, Oh, I didn't really know. But either he got terrible staffing or he knew, and he just didn't want to get caught. He's deeply, deeply scandal ridden, without question. And he, you know, is constantly defending Marjorie Taylor Green, who, you know, compared the COVID mask laws to, you know, the Holocaust and things like that. He called the ADL racist. He is not representative of any stream, really, within the Republican Party. He is emblematic of the most populist of the populace, the most MAGA of the MAGA. So we should remember who he is, first and foremost.
Beyond that, I cannot imagine an America that would confirm him as Attorney General. I’m a congressist by heart. I believe that Congress does the right things, if given enough time to do so, and I cannot believe that they'll let this one go through. So forgive my rant. I think it needs to be said about him. But in terms of, you know, who are we watching, and what do we think is going to happen in the long term? I don't think there's a long term there.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Let's talk about another pick, and that is his pick for Homeland Security, who I don't think is so outlandish, and that is South Dakota Governor Christie gnomes. She could play a really vital role in his immigration the proposal that he's made for the immigration system. She has been a strong ally of AJC in the past.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Yes, she has. When she signed North South Dakota's bill, um on the international Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, working definition of antisemitism, when she signed into law, AJC was there. She's been outspoken about anti semitism, and has consistently, sort of done, she's done the right things there. That being said, South Dakota has a very small Jewish population. So it's not, the same as if she were the governor of New York or Florida or even California that has major Jewish populations that are constantly calling with various, you know, security needs or something like that. So she's been there when she's needed to be there.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And I know South Dakota is not a border state, but didn't she send army reserves to the border to help Texas Governor Greg Abbott, at one point?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
She has. A lot of Republican governors sort of backed Abbott in that way. I think that her crew in the governors, in the Republican Governors Association, etc, will be much aligned with the incoming administration. And of course, you know, that's why she's picked.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
We also have the choice of John Ratliff, who Trump has named as a potential CIA director. And you know, technically, CIA director is the person who's nominated as head of intelligence is the CIA director's boss, and so he was the former director or chief intelligence advisor. So in a way, it's kind of a demotion. However, what I've read is President elect Trump believes that the CIA director is actually more important. So what are we looking at here? Are we looking at a smoother confirmation process for the CIA director, perhaps, and are we looking at kind of an elevation of that job?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
I think we can probably assume it's an elevation, and in the same way that we talked about the previous Trump administration prioritizing the National Security Council almost above the State Department, I think we'll see that sort of shift in alignment, the CIA being sort of the new center of gravity, if it wasn't already within the the intelligence community. So I think that we probably will see him playing a much more dominant role. That being said, I think America has always held this deep fascination with CIA directors, FBI directors. They always, because of the really interesting and critical roles they play, they always sort of punch above their weight in terms of, you know, how much are they on TV? How much are people watching what they're saying and what they're doing? So I think that we can absolutely anticipate that. And you know, he has some skeletons in his closet, but I don't think that there's anything that will prohibit or impede his nomination for that role.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And as a religion reporter, I found the naming of former Governor Mike Huckabee as the ambassador, a potential ambassador to Israel, to be very interesting, given that he is an evangelical Christian, a Baptist pastor. Aren't too many non-Jewish ambassadors to Israel. There have been some, but not too many. And I thought that this was a really interesting selection. What can we see or expect to see from that choice?
Julie Fishman Rayman:
You know, part of me kind of loves this for America. I think there's, Governor Huckabee has always been a stalwart supporter of Israel, without question, deeply, deeply supportive. There are questions about, what is he going to do with regard to like, the question of settlements or annexation and things like that. And and I think we're going to have to be watching that very, very closely.
But if we're looking sort of at the macro level, the issue of Israel and America has become so polarized and in some ways so toxic, that this reminder that it's not just the Jews that care about Israel, I think, couldn't come at a better time.
I do think that it's really interesting to now have someone going to sit at the embassy that President Trump moved to Jerusalem, who is not representing the Jewish community there, but representing the massive Evangelical community in the United States and even frankly, around the world.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Well, Julie, thank you so much for sharing your perspectives. As these names keep trickling out each day, many things are said, some important, some not so important. So I'm glad I appreciate you kind of focusing our audience on what matters to AJC, what matters to the Jewish community and for those who support Israel. So thank you so much.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
It's been my pleasure and many and if I can just say, as we conclude that the personalities take up a lot of space, they take up a lot of oxygen. But for AJC, we're always singularly focused on the policies, and we'll continue doing what we've been doing already for months, and that's reaching everyone who will have influence in this next administration, to advance our policy perspective, to share our agenda and to talk about what we think needs to form the policy priorities of the next administration.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Thank you so much, Julie.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Thank you.
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Felice Gaer, esteemed Director of AJC’s Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights, was an internationally respected human rights advocate who dedicated more than four decades to championing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and enforcing international commitments to prevent severe human rights violations globally. On November 9, Felice passed away after a prolonged battle with metastatic breast cancer.
In honor of her legacy, we revisit her insightful conversation on People of the Pod, recorded last year during Women’s History Month and on International Women’s Day. As we remember and celebrate Felice's profound contributions, we share this interview once more. May her memory continue to be a blessing.
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Music credits:
Drops of Melting Snow (after Holst, Abroad as I was walking) by Axletree is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License.
Learn more about Felice Gaer:
Felice Gaer, Legendary Human Rights Champion Who Inspired Generations of Global Advocates, Dies at 78
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
What the Election Results Mean for Israel and the Jewish People
The Jewish Vote in Pennsylvania: What You Need to Know
Sinwar Eliminated: What Does This Mean for the 101 Hostages Still Held by Hamas?
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Felice Gaer:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
This past weekend, AJC lost a phenomenal colleague. Felice Gaer, the director of American Jewish Committee's Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights, was an internationally renowned human rights expert who, for more than four decades, brought life and practical significance to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international commitments, to prevent grave human rights abuses around the world.
She died on November 9, following a lengthy battle with metastatic breast cancer. I had the honor of interviewing Felice last year during Women's History Month and on International Women's Day.
We bring you that interview now, as we remember Felice. May her memory be for a blessing.
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Felice is with us now to discuss today's human rights challenges and the challenges she has faced as a woman in the Human Rights world.
Felice, welcome to People of the Pod.
Felice Gaer:
Thank you, Manya.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So let’s start with the beginning. Can you share with our listeners a little about your upbringing, and how Jewish values shaped what you do today?
Felice Gaer:
Well, I had a fairly ordinary upbringing in a suburb of New York City that had a fairly high percentage of Jews living in it–Teaneck, New Jersey. I was shaped by all the usual things in a Jewish home. First of all, the holidays. Secondly, the values, Jewish values, and awareness, a profound awareness of Jewish history, the history of annihilation, expulsion, discrimination, violence. But also the Jewish values of universality, respect for all human life, equality before the law, sense of realism, sense that you can change your life by what you do, and the choices that you make. These are all core Jewish values. And I guess I always have found the three part expression by Rabbi Hillel to sum up the approach I've always taken to human rights and most other things in life. He said, If I'm not for myself, who will be, and if I'm only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? So that's a sense of Jewish particularism, Jewish universalism, and realism, as well.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You went to Wellesley, class of 1968, it's an all-women's college. Was there a strong Jewish presence on campus there at a time? And did that part of your identity even play a role in your college experience?
Felice Gaer :
Well, I left, as I said, a town that had a fairly sizable Jewish population. And I went to Wellesley and I felt like I was in another world. And so even as long ago as 1964-65, that era, I actually reached out to Hillel and participated in very minor activities that took place, usually a Friday night dinner, or something like that. But it really didn't play a role except by making me recognize that I was a member of a very small minority.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Here on this podcast, we've talked a lot about the movement to free Soviet Jewry. As you pursued graduate work at Columbia, and also during your undergrad days at Wellesley, were you involved in that movement at all?
Felice Gaer:
Well, I had great interest in Russian studies, and in my years at Wellesley, the Soviet Union movement was at a very nascent stage. And I remember arguments with the Soviet Ambassador coming to the campus and our specialist on Russian history, arguing about whether this concern about the treatment of Soviet Jews was a valid concern.
The professor, who happened to have been Jewish, by the way, argued that Jews in the Soviet Union were treated badly, but so was everybody else in the Soviet Union. And it really wasn't something that one needed to focus on especially. As I left Wellesley and went to Columbia, where I studied political science and was at the Russian Institute, now the Harriman Institute, I found that the treatment of Soviet Jews was different in many ways, and the capacity to do something about it was serious.
We knew people who had relatives, we knew people who wanted to leave. The whole Soviet Union movement was focused around the desire to leave the country–not to change it–that was an explicit decision of Jewish leaders around the world, and in the Soviet Union itself. And so the desire to leave was something you could realize, document the cases, bring the names forward, and engage American officials in a way that the Jewish community had never done before with cases and examples demanding that every place you went, every negotiation that took place, was accompanied by lists of names and cases, whose plight will be brought to the attention of the authorities. And that really mobilized people, including people like me.
I also worked to focus on the agenda of internal change in the Soviet Union. And that meant also looking at other human rights issues. Why and how freedom of religion or belief was suppressed in this militantly atheist state, why and how freedom of expression, freedom of association, and just about every other right, was really severely limited. And what the international standards were at that time. After I left Columbia, that was around the time that the famous manifesto from Andrei Sakharov, the world famous physicist, Nobel Prize winner, was made public. It was around the time that other kinds of dissident materials were becoming better known about life inside the Soviet Union post-Khrushchev.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So you left Colombia with a master's degree, the Cold War ends, and you take a job at the Ford Foundation that has you traveling all around Eastern Europe, looking to end human rights abuses, assessing the challenges that face that region. I want to ask you about the treatment of women, and what you witnessed about the mistreatment of women in these regions. And does that tend to be a common denominator around the world when you assess human rights abuses?
Felice Gaer:
Well, there's no question that the treatment of women is different than the treatment of men. And it's true all over the world. But when I traveled in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in the height of those years, height of the Cold War, and so forth, the issues of women's rights actually weren't one of the top issues on the agenda because the Soviet Union and East European countries appeared to be doing more for women than the Western countries.
They had them in governance. They had them in the parliament. They purported to support equality for women. It took some years for Soviet feminists, dissidents, to find a voice and to begin to point out all the ways in which they were treated in the same condescending, patriarchal style as elsewhere. But in those years, that was not a big issue in the air.
It was unusual for me, a 20-something year old woman from the United States to be traveling around Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, meeting with high officials and others, and on behalf of the Ford Foundation, trying to develop programming that would involve people to people contacts, that would involve developing programs where there was common expertise, like management training, and things of that sort. And I was really an odd, odd duck in that situation, and I felt it.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I mentioned in my introduction, the Beijing World Conference on Women, can you reflect a little on what had a lasting impact there?
Felice Gaer:
Well, the Beijing World Conference on Women was the largest, and remains the largest conference that the United Nations has ever organized. There were over 35,000 women there, about 17,000 at the intergovernmental conference. I was on the US delegation there.
The simple statement that women's rights are human rights may seem hackneyed today. But when that was affirmed in the 1995 Beijing Outcome Document, it was a major political and conceptual breakthrough. It was largely focused on getting the UN to accept that the rights of women were actually international human rights and that they weren't something different. They weren't private, or outside the reach of investigators and human rights bodies. It was an inclusive statement, and it was a mind altering statement in the women's rights movement.
It not only reaffirmed that women's rights are human rights, but it went further in addressing the problems facing women in the language of human rights.
The earlier world conferences on women talked about equality, but they didn't identify violations of those rights. They didn't demand accountability of those rights. And they said absolutely nothing about creating mechanisms by which you could monitor, review, and hold people accountable, which is the rights paradigm. Beijing changed all that. It was a violations approach that was quite different from anything that existed before that.
Manya Brachear Pashman :
Did anything get forgotten? We talked about what had a lasting impact, but what seems to have been forgotten or have fallen to the wayside?
Felice Gaer:
Oh, I think it's just the opposite. I think the things that were in the Beijing conference have become Fuller and addressed in greater detail and are more commonly part of what goes on in the international discourse on women's rights and the status of women in public life. And certainly at the international level that's the case.
I'll give you just one example, the Convention Against Torture. I mean, when I became a member of the committee, the 10 person committee, I was the only woman. The committee really had, in 11 years, it had maybe said, four or five things about the treatment of women. And the way that torture, ill treatment, inhuman, degrading treatment may affect women.
It looked at the world through the eyes of male prisoners in detention. And it didn't look at the world through the eyes of women who suffer private violence, gender based violence, that is that the state looks away from and ignores and therefore sanctions, and to a certain extent endorses.
And it didn't identify the kinds of things that affect women, including women who are imprisoned, and why and where in many parts of the world. What one does in terms of education or dress or behavior may lead you into a situation where you're being abused, either in a prison or outside of prison. These are issues that are now part of the regular review, for example, at the Committee Against Torture, issues of of trafficking, issues of gender based violence, the Sharia law, the hudud punishments of whipping and stoning, are part of the concern of the committee, which they weren't before.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In other words, having that woman's perspective, having your perspective on that committee was really important and really changed and broadened the discussion.
Felice Gaer:
Absolutely. When I first joined the committee, the first session I was at, we had a review of China. And so I very politely asked a question about the violence and coercion associated with the population policy in China, as you know, forced abortions and things of that sort. This was a question that had come up before the women's convention, the CEDAW, and I thought it was only appropriate that it also come up in the Committee Against Torture.
In our discussion afterwards, the very stern chairman of the committee, a former constable, said to me, ‘You know, this might be of interest to you, Ms. Gaer, but this has nothing to do with the mandate of this committee.’
I explained to him why it did, in some detail. And when I finished pointing out all of those elements–including the fact that the people carried out these practices on the basis of state policy–when I finished, there was a silence.
And the most senior person in the room, who had been involved in these issues for decades, said, ‘I'm quite certain we can accommodate Ms. Gaer’s concerns in the conclusions,’ and they did.
That's the kind of thing that happens when you look at issues from a different perspective and raise them.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You talked about being an odd duck in your 20s, as a woman traveling around Eastern Europe, trying to address these challenges. I'm curious if that woman in her 20s would have been able to stand up to this committee like that, and give that thorough an explanation? Or did it take some years of experience, of witnessing these issues, perhaps being ignored?
Felice Gaer:
Well, I think as we go through life, you learn new things. And I learned new things along the way. I learned about the universal norms, I learned about how to apply them, how they had been applied, and how they hadn't been applied. And in that process, developed what I would say is a sharper way of looking at these issues.
But the Bosnian conflict in particular, made the issue of gender based violence against women, especially in war, but not only in war, into a mainstream issue, and helped propel these issues, both inside the United Nations and outside, the awareness changed.
I remember asking the International Red Cross representatives in Croatia, just across the border from Bosnia, if they had encountered any victims of gender based violence or rape, and they said, ‘No.’ And I said, ‘Did you ask them about these concerns?’ And they sort of looked down and looked embarrassed, looked at each other and looked back at me and said, ‘Oh.’ There were no words. There were no understandings of looking at the world this way.
And that has changed. That has changed dramatically today. I mean, if you look at the situation in Ukraine, the amount of gender based violence that has been documented is horrifying, just horrifying, but it's been documented.
Manya Brachear Pashman
So is the world of human rights advocacy male-dominated, female-dominated, is it fairly balanced these days? And has that balance made the difference in what you're talking about?
Felice Gaer:
You know, I wrote an article in 1988, the 40th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, about why women's rights weren't being addressed. And one of the points I drew attention to was the fact that the heads of almost all the major organizations at the time were all male. And that it wasn't seen as a concern. A lot of that has changed. There's really a real variety of perspectives now that are brought to bear.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So we've talked a lot about the importance of [a] woman's perspective. Does a Jewish perspective matter as well?
Felice Gaer:
Oh, on every issue on every issue and, you know, I worked a great deal on freedom of religion and belief, as an issue. That's a core issue of AJC, and it's a fundamental rights issue. And it struck me as surprising that with all the attention to freedom of religion, the concern about antisemitic acts was not being documented by mainstream human rights organizations. And it wasn't being documented by the UN experts on freedom of religion or belief either.
I drew this to the attention of Dr. Ahmed Shaheed, who was recently ending his term as Special Rapporteur on Freedom of religion or belief. And he was really very struck by this. And he went, and he did a little bit of research. And he found out that since computerized records had been prepared at the United Nations, that there had been no attention, no attention at all, to cases of alleged antisemitic incidents. And he began a project to record the kinds of problems that existed and to identify what could be done about it. We helped him in the sense that we organized a couple of colloquia, we brought people from all over the world together to talk about the dimensions of the problem and the documentation that they did, and the proposals that they had for addressing it. And he, as you may recall, wrote a brilliant report in 2019, setting out the problems of global antisemitism. And he followed that up in 2022, before leaving his position with what he called an action plan for combating anti semitism, which has concrete specific suggestions for all countries around the world as to what they can do to help combat antisemitism and antisemitic acts, including and to some extent, starting with adopting the working definition on antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, but also activities in in the area of education, training, training of law enforcement officials, documentation and public action. It’s a real contribution to the international discourse and to understanding that freedom of religion or belief belongs to everyone.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And do you believe that Dr. Shaheed’s report is being absorbed, comprehended by those that need to hear it that need to understand it?
Felice Gaer
I've been delighted to see the way that the European Union has engaged with Dr. Shaheed and his report has developed standards and expectations for all 27 member states, and that other countries and other parts of the world have done the same. So yeah, I do think they're engaging with it. I hope there'll be a lot more because the problem has only grown.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
On the one year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, JBI issued a report that sounded the alarm on the widespread violations committed against Ukrainians, you mentioned the amount of gender based violence Since that has taken place, and the other just catastrophic consequences of this war. Felice, you've been on the front row of Eastern European affairs and human rights advocacy in that region. From your perspective, and I know this is a big question: How did this war happen?
Felice Gaer:
I'll just start by saying: it didn't start in 2022. And if you have to look at what happened, the events of 2014, to understand the events of 2022. Following the breakup of the Soviet Union, or even during the breakup, there was a period where the 15th constituent Union republics of the Soviet Union developed a greater national awareness, really, and some of them had been independent as some of them hadn't been, but they developed a much greater awareness. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the 15 countries, including Russia, as one of the 15, became independent entities. And aside from having more members in the United Nations and the Council of Europe and places like that, it led to much more robust activity, in terms of respecting human rights and other areas of endeavor in each of those countries.
The situation in Russia, with a head of state who has been there, with one exception, a couple of years, for 20 years, has seen an angry desire to reestablish an empire. That's the only thing you can say really about it.
If they can't dominate by having a pro-Russian group in charge in the country, then there have been invasions, there have been Russian forces, Russia-aligned forces sent to the different countries. So whether it's Georgia, or Moldova, or Ukraine, we've seen this pattern.
And unfortunately, what happened in 2022, is the most egregious and I would say, blatant such example. In 2014, the Russians argued that it was local Russian speaking, little green men who were conducting hostilities in these places, or it was local people who wanted to realign with Russia, who were demanding changes, and so forth. But in the 2022 events, Russia's forces invaded, wearing Russian insignia and making it quite clear that this was a matter of state policy that they were pursuing, and that they weren't going to give up.
And it's led to the tragic developments that we've all seen inside the country, and the horrific violence, the terrible, widespread human rights violations. And in war, we know that human rights violations are usually the worst.
And so the one good spot on the horizon: the degree to which these abuses have been documented, it's unprecedented to have so much documentation so early in a conflict like this, which someday may lead to redress and accountability for those who perpetrated it. But right now, in the middle of these events, it's just a horror.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
What other human rights situations do we need to be taking more seriously now? And where has there been significant progress?
Felice Gaer:
Well, I'll talk about the problem spots if I may for a minute. Everyone points to North Korea as the situation without parallel, that's what a UN Commission of Inquiry said, without parallel in the world. The situation in Iran? Well, you just need to watch what's happened to the protesters, the women and others who have protested over 500 people in the streets have died because of this. 15,000 people imprisoned, and Iran's prisons are known for ill treatment and torture.
The situation in Afghanistan is atrocious. The activities of the Taliban, which they were known for in the 1990s are being brought back. They are normalizing discrimination, they are engaged in probably the most hardline gender discrimination we've seen anywhere where women can't work outside the home, girls can't be educated, political participation is denied. The constitution has been thrown out. All kinds of things. The latest is women can't go to parks, they can't go to university, and they can't work for NGOs. This continues. It's a major crisis.
Well, there are other countries, from Belarus, to Sudan to Uzbekistan, and China, that we could also talk about at great length, lots of problems in the world, and not enough effort to expose them, address them and try to ameliorate them.
Manya Brachear Pashman
So what do we do about that? What can our listeners do about that, when we hear this kind of grim report?
Felice Gaer:
Work harder. Pay attention when you hear about rights issues. Support rights organizations. Take up cases. Seek redress. Be concerned about the victims. All these things need to be done.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I don't know how you maintain your composure and your cool, Felice, because you have faced so much in terms of challenges and push back. So thank you so much for all you have done for women, for the Jewish people, and for the world at large. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Felice Gaer:
Thank you, Manya.
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What do the results of the 2024 U.S. presidential election, a sweeping victory for President-elect Donald Trump and Vice President-elect J.D. Vance, mean for the U.S. Jewish community and Israel? How did the Jewish community vote? What are the top takeaways from the Senate and the House elections? Get caught up on all the latest election data points and analysis in this week’s episode, featuring Ron Kampeas, JTA's Washington Bureau Chief and guest hosted by Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs.
AJC is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization. AJC neither supports nor opposes candidates for elective office. The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
AJC’s Policy Priorities:
AJC Congratulates President-Elect Donald J. Trump
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
The Jewish Vote in Pennsylvania: What You Need to Know
Sinwar Eliminated: What Does This Mean for the 101 Hostages Still Held by Hamas?
From Doña Gracia to Deborah Lipstadt: What Iconic Jewish Women Can Teach Us Today
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Transcript:
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Hello, I'm Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs. Today, I have the pleasure of guest hosting People of the Pod and speaking with Ron Kampeas, JTA’s Washington Bureau Chief, to discuss the results and the implications of the 2024 U.S. presidential election.
As the nonpartisan global advocacy organization for the Jewish people, AJC congratulates Donald J. Trump on his election as the 47th President of the United States, and Senator JD Vance as Vice President. AJC looks forward to working with the President-elect and his administration on the domestic and foreign policy concerns that are AJC advocacy priorities to learn more about our policy priorities for the incoming administration. Head to the link in our show notes.
As a reminder, AJC is a 501(c)3 non-partisan, not for profit organization. AJC neither supports nor opposes candidates for elected office.
Ron, welcome to People of the Pod. Thank you for being here.
Ron Kampeas:
Of course.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Well, I'd like to start asking you if you have a sense about the Jewish vote, because there have been a number of different exit polls, which, I guess, not surprisingly, because exit polls are what they are, say vastly different things. There are some that say it's the biggest Jewish vote in support for a Democratic candidate ever, and then also the highest percentage ever for a Republican candidate.
What do we know to be true? And what would you sort of be looking at in terms of, you know, as we're examining this moving forward, what are we looking for?
Ron Kampeas:
So first of all, I know I've seen those very extreme assessments as well, and I know what they're based on, and even based on what they're based on, and we, I'll talk about that too, that's just not correct. So they're talking about a 79% turnout, according to a poll, the consortium of a number of organizations like CNN and the New York Times. And that poll is not reliable yet.
It does show 79% and think 21%, in other words, an even split. Nobody seemed to have voted for, at least among the Jews, for third party candidates. And I'm not sure what number of Jews who were included in that poll were. I mean, it's a vast, vast poll. They do talk to a lot of people, but even they will say, and I think they put it on their things, that it's just preliminary.
The more reliable analysis is considered to be the one that came out of the Fox-AP analysis that showed 66%-67% for Harris, 32%-31% for Trump. And I think that's what the Trump people are talking about in terms of the highest for Republicans. It's just not the highest for a Republican. I think if you count in the margin of error, that's not even like recently the highest for a Republican.
Nothing's changed in the last four years. I think what it is showing is that whereas Republicans, when I started at JTA in 2004 they were happy to get 25%. They've gone up from 19% with George W. Bush in 2020 to 25% with John Kerry a few years later. Now they can comfortably say they're getting about 30% of the Jewish community. People love to attach everything that happens to the very current politics of the day. So however you count it, nothing seems to have changed.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
So interesting, because for I think a lot of Jews around America, we feel as though so much has changed. But when you go to the voting booth, Jews consistently aren't necessarily thinking just about either Israel or antisemitism.
AJC does a survey looking at American Jewish opinion, not every year, but almost every year. And we did it in June, and asked questions about political affiliation. Who are you going to vote for? And one of the things that we asked was, what drives your vote? And foreign policy is always low down on the list.
On election night, CNN asked that same question, of course, to all Americans, and I think 4% said that their vote was driven by foreign policy. Has there been a moment where the American Jewish vote is more focused on issues that feel perhaps a bit more parochial?
Ron Kampeas:
No. Certainly within the Orthodox subset, and it's always difficult to tell, because the smaller the subset, the bigger the margin of error. But when there's consistency over time and survey after survey after survey, I think you can conclude that, yes, Orthodox Jews do attach more importance to the U.S.-Israel relationship and how it's manifesting, how they're perceiving it.
The only time that a Democrat, at least since FDR, I think, a Democrat, didn't receive a majority of the Jewish vote was Jimmy Carter, who, in 1980 got a plurality of the Jewish vote, I think, about 45%.
People sort of conflate things in their head. In his post-presidency, Carter became very identified with being very critical of Israel. And it's true, in 1980 he'd had difficult relationships with Menachem Begin, but he brokered the most important peace treaty in Israeli history. He saved a lot of lives. So I don't think people were feeling bad about Carter in 1980 because of Israel.
I like to tell people, Jews are like everybody else. You know it's true that a majority of us vote for Democrats, and there are other subsets where, a majority vote for Republican more majority for Democrats. But we vote for the same reasons as everybody else. Our votes will get more enthusiastic for a Democrat on one circumstance, just like everybody else's will, or might get less enthusiastic just like everybody else's will. We're susceptible to the same things.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
It's really interesting. So at this moment, there's so much Monday morning quarterbacking happening, and I don't want to look too far in the rear view, but I do want to ask you for your take on this question of, would the result have been different had the Vice President selected Shapiro, Governor Shapiro from Pennsylvania, as her running mate?
Ron Kampeas:
Maybe, it's hard to say. Vice presidents have had such a little impact on nominations. But on the other hand, Pennsylvania was close enough, and Shapiro is popular enough there that perhaps it might have made the difference. She might have had Pennsylvania, and then if she had Pennsylvania, I don't know, she would have gotten to 270. But you know, Nevada and Arizona are still being counted. They might still go in her column.
If they do go in her column, although I don't think they will, I think it looks like they're going to go into Trump's column. If Nevada and Arizona go into her column and she missed out on Pennsylvania, you could say that her decision to go with Tim Walz instead of Josh Shapiro was fateful.
On the other hand, everybody's a cynic. Nobody actually believes anything anybody says. But I try to get away from that. I try not to be too much of a cynic. And when Josh Shapiro said afterwards that he had second thoughts about taking on VP, because he's like a hugely successful governor so far in Pennsylvania is this is two years into his first term. You know, if I'm Josh Shapiro, I'm thinking about my legacy, and I'm thinking about running for president in the future and two years, just, yeah, I'm not going to make an impact in Pennsylvania in just two years.
If I'm the 60% governor who can get Republicans to vote for me in the middle of the state, I'm thinking two terms will make me like, well, you know, get me a statue in some building at one point. There's this whole narrative that there was an antisemitic pushback. It was an antisemitic pushback against Shapiro. It was anti-Israel at times. I really believe it did cross over antisemitism.
I'm not sure that that had the effect on the Harris campaign in terms of its decision making. She clicked with Tim Walz. Shapiro wasn't so eager. Shapiro was going to be a co-president. Walz wanted to be a vice president. He made that very clear. He had no intentions of ever running for the presidency. So if you're a Harris, do you want to have a Dan Quayle, or do you want to have a Dick Cheney kind of thing? You know as somebody who's prone to take over, or somebody who's prone to do what needs to be done to be vice president. And obviously she preferred the latter.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
It's a great analogy. Can we talk for a minute about sort of Jewish representation in Congress where Israel was on the ballot? What are your perceptions there?
Ron Kampeas:
I think that it might have made a difference in NY-17th, where Mike Lawler defeated Mondair Jones. Mondair Jones was perceived when he first ran into 2020, and he was elected. He was perceived initially as somebody who would be very different from Nita Lowey, who he was replacing because she's a very solid, long time pro-Israel.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
And an AJC board member.
Ron Kampeas:
And an AJC board member. He actually declared before she retired, so he was a little bit confrontational with her, which happens, obviously. I don't know if Israel came up in that equation, though. Young progressive people thought he'd be a squadder, but he wasn't. In his two years in Congress, he wasn't a member of the squad, and he went out of his way to align with the pro-Israel community, and this because it was so important in his district.
But Lawler, he's been, he's a freshman, but he's been out front. He's been very good at cultivating the Jewish people in his district. And he's not just led on a number of Israel issues, but he's always made sure to do it in a bipartisan way, partnering with Jared Moskowitz in Florida, or Josh got him or in New Jersey, and you know, that might have helped him in the district. It was a close race. He won by a close margin. So I think maybe that was definitely a factor there.
I think that one of the group's decision desk that declares winners just declared for Jackie Rosen in Nevada. She's been reelected, according to them, but we'll wait. We'll see if and when AP calls it. But again, a state with a substantial Jewish population, she is, like, one of the premier Democrats. She's Jewish, but she also is very, very upfront about Israel. She co-chairs an Antisemitism Task Force. She has a bill that would designate a domestic antisemitism coordinator.
So in such a close race or such close margins with the Jewish community, that's actually much larger than the margin that might have helped put her over the top. On the other side, you know, you have Michigan, which might have also, like we looked at Pennsylvania and Josh Shapiro.
Michigan also might have cost Kamala Harris the presidency because of her support for Israel, because, you know, President Trump managed to peel away Muslim American and Arab American voters in in Michigan, in a kind of a weird slight of hand, because he said that he would be more pro their issue than Kamala Harris was, even though he's more pro-Netanyahu, definitely than Kamala Harris is. But also, there were third party voters, people who voted for Jill Stein.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Pretty significant numbers for Jill Stein, from Michigan.
Ron Kampeas:
Pretty significant numbers for Jill Stein. But Elissa Slotkin got over the top. Very pro-Israel, centrist Democrat, Jewish. Very much a foreign policy, you know, specialist. She came out of the CIA and the Defense Department. Also very partisan. She was meeting with red constituents, like veterans, and she was doing a good job of it. She had that appeal. And I think that's why she ran for Senate. I think that's where Democrats are excited to have her run for Senate. And then October 7 happened, and she had to navigate a very difficult situation in her state, which has a substantial Jewish community, has an even bigger Muslim American and Arab American community. She had meetings with both leaders. She put out sensitive statements after the meetings.
I think one of the most interesting sort of developments with her is that Rashida Tlaib, the Palestinian American Congresswoman attacked Dana Nessel for prosecuting people who were violent, were allegedly violent at protests. She put out a statement that, without saying it was because Dana Nessel was Jewish, she was said that Dana Nessel had other sort of considerations when she brought these prosecutions. Dana Nessel outright accused her of antisemitism, and then Rashida Tlaib was the subject of a lot of Islamophobic, anti-Palestinian vitriol.
And it was interesting because there were two letters that went out at the time from Congress members. One condemning anything that insinuated that Dana Nessel had dual loyalties, or anything like that, and one condemning the anti-Islamic rhetoric that Rashida Tlaib faced, and the only person who signed both letters was Alyssa Slotkin. I thought that was interesting.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
I want to turn a little bit if we can, to the expectations for the next administration, even for the next Congress. When we last spoke, right after the Republican National Convention, JD Vance had been selected as the running mate, and you and I, we talked about what that means for a Trump foreign policy in the next administration. Will it go in a more isolationist direction, more aligning with JD Vance's worldview? What do you think now and what might we expect?
Ron Kampeas:
That’s still a potential for sure, there are names being rooted about for Secretary of State. One of them is Rick Grinnell, who's completely a Trumpist, who will do what he wants, his former Acting CIA director. And the other is Marco Rubio, gave one of the best speeches at the convention, I thought, and who is very close to the pro-Israel community, who's an internationalist, but who has tailored his rhetoric to be more, to make sure he doesn't antagonize Donald Trump. He was, you know, he came close to being the vice presidential pick himself.
I mean, if Marco Rubio becomes Secretary of State, I think that's a good sign for internationalists. I mean, you know, Israel has kind of a buffer, because the Republican Party is very pro-Israel. And there are people like JD Vance who say, you know, Israel is the exception when it comes to what I think about pulling the United States back from the world, even though he says it's not so much the exception.
And then there are people like Marco Rubio who are internationalists. Does Marco Rubio get to run an independent foreign policy? That would be very good news, I think, for internationalists, if Donald Trump doesn't get in his way. But I don't know if that that happens.
There's a view of pro-Israelism that says internationalism is necessary. I always like to say when a AIPAC used to have its policy conferences, and it's a shame it doesn't any more, they would have a little brief talk before on Tuesday morning, before going up to the Hill, they would have, like, some prominent Senator come out and give a rah rah speech. And then like, three officials would come out on the stage, Howard Core, the late Richard Fishman, and Esther Kurz. And Esther Kurz had handled congressional relations, and they would talk about the three items they were bringing up the Hill, usually two laws in a letter or a resolution or something like that.
And she would always say, and this was like the one moment like they would sort of reveal this. They'd be very candid about this. You have to push not for assistance for Israel, but foreign assistance generally, because there is no such thing as sort of singling out Israel and saying, Okay, we're going to take care of Israel, but nobody else in the world. That it's all interconnected.
And it's such a true thing now, because you can say, you know, let's just cut off Ukraine. But if you're cut off Ukraine, you're bolstering Putin. If you're bolstering Putin, you're bolstering somebody who has a substantial and military alliance with Iran. If you're bolstering Iran, that is not good for Israel. And it's kind of circuitous to get there, but it's also a very substantive point. I think those are the things the pro-Israel community is going to be looking at with genuine concern.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Indeed, it's all about sort of the strength of the American global leadership regime. And when you start to whittle away at one, the overall package ends up being weaker. Speaking of Israel, I can't speak to you this week and not ask you about the news out of Israel, about Netanyahu firing the Defense Secretary Gallant and what that means.
And also, if we can extrapolate, if we can prognosticate what might happen vis a vis Israel in this lame duck session, while we still have Biden as president, but moving through the transition towards a future Trump administration.
Ron Kampeas:
Yeah, you know, there a lot of Israelis are actually worried about that. Like, Oh, Biden's gonna take his frustrations out on Bibi in the lame duck. Doesn't have anything stopping him. I don't think that's going to happen.
I think what's interesting is, like, you had a couple of instances in American history where a lame duck president used the fact that he didn't care, you know, what anybody thought of him, to push something through. In 1988 Ronald Reagan recognized the PLO because it's something George H. W. Bush wanted him to do. George H. W. Bush wanted to push like more Israel Palestinian peace.
He did with the Madrid Conference, but he didn't want to be the one to invite the PLO into the room, so he got Ronald Reagan to do it in his last two months in office. In 2016 Barack Obama allowed through a Security Council resolution that condemned the settlements. The United States didn't vote for it, but it also didn't veto it. That really kind of shook Israel up. But what was interesting. I've done the reporting on this. When he was taking advice, Should I, should we vote for the resolution? Should we veto it, or should we just allow it through? There were people voicing opinions on all sides.
Joe Biden and Jack Lew, who was then the Treasury Secretary, is now the ambassador to Israel, both said, veto it. Don't let it through. Don't let it through because, partly because it's going to really upset our Jewish supporters, if you let it through. You're not going to be president anymore, but somebody in the room is going to probably try and be president. I think that Joe Biden still has that sense of responsibility. I could be wrong.
You know, four years or a year of like, from his perspective, being very strongly supportive of Israel and not getting anything back from Bibi, from his perspective, might have changed his mind. Something might occur now.
But the question is, like, you can tell Israel if they hit anything, but if they hit anything, if they elevate it at all, they're going to need US assistance. And Trump hasn't said he's going to give that. Biden has. Biden's proven he's going to give it. So you've got two months of a president who will, who will back up Israel with American might, and then you have a president who has isolationist tendencies and who doesn't want to get involved with wars for another four years.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Is there anything else that you're hearing, perhaps, from the Israeli perspective, about Gallant’s departure, and what that signals?
Ron Kampeas:
I think that Netanyahu, you know, he's just trying to keep his government intact. Gallant is very vocal in opposing or in supporting drafting the ultra orthodox, the Haredi orthodox. Netanyahu’s government relies on Haredi orthodox parties. So there's that.
He's also facing a kind of spy scandal from his own circle. Just a weird, weird story. Somebody who's in his circle is alleged to have tried to help Netanyahu politically by leaking highly classified documents and altering them as well to foreign news outlets. The allegation is that whatever the guy's motivation was, he's actually put Israel at risk.
So Netanyahu is suddenly in a position of facing allegations that he put Israel at risk. Now, he's faced a lot of scandals in his time. Israelis have a high level of tolerance for people who are alleged to have skimmed off the top, alleged to have helped themselves, and that's what the scandals are about.
They have no tolerance for anybody who puts Israel's security at risk. So if this comes back to Netanyahu, that could be more damage than than any other scandal that he's endured so far. And so notably, I think, you know, when he was firing Gallant, he said he accused Gallant of leaking information. Although, I mean, what he seemed to be referring to was Gallant didn't leak anything. Gallant openly said that he disagreed with Netanyahu on certain tactics, and that, you know Netanyahu is casting is putting Israel at risk.
Which is not to say that Netanyahu is necessarily going to be implicated by the scandal, but it's certainly not of a piece with leaking, actually classified documents that reveal methods and sources that can put Israel's intelligence gathering methods at risk.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
As always, there's so much more to the story, right?
Ron Kampeas:
Yeah, yeah. There always is.
Julie Fishman Rayman:
Ron, we could probably talk for a very long time about the American elections and what's going on in Israel and the degrees of various scandals and how populations will take them, and what the future of our country in the region looks like.
But I know that you're very busy, especially this week, and I just want to say how grateful we are that you always make time for AJC and for People of the Pod.
Ron Kampeas:
Of course.
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As election day nears, Republican nominee and former President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris, are zeroing in on Pennsylvania, which has the largest Jewish community among the battleground states. Aaron Troodler, editor of the Philadelphia Jewish Exponent, breaks down what’s influencing Jewish voter sentiment in Pennsylvania, from economic and social issues to the U.S.-Israel relationship amid rising antisemitism and Israel’s defensive war against Iran-backed Hamas and Hezbollah.
AJC is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization. AJC neither supports nor opposes candidates for elective office. The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
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Sinwar Eliminated: What Does This Mean for the 101 Hostages Still Held by Hamas?
From Doña Gracia to Deborah Lipstadt: What Iconic Jewish Women Can Teach Us Today
The Nova Music Festival Survivor Saved by an 88-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor
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Transcript of Conversation with Aaron Troodler:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
It's the home stretch leading up to election day for the presidential campaigns of Republican nominee and former President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris. And both campaigns see Jewish voters in seven swing states as key to a potential victory. These seven swing states are swarming with canvassers, knocking on doors, handing out literature and engaging undecided voters in critical conversations.
Joining us for a critical conversation about the Jewish vote in one of those swing states is Aaron Troodler, editor of The Philadelphia Exponent and The Washington Jewish Week.
Aaron, welcome to People of the Pod.
Aaron Troodler:
Thank you, Manya, it's a pleasure to be here.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Aaron, you live in the Philadelphia area and have your finger on the political pulse there. Everyone's talking about the impact of Pennsylvania's voters. What makes Pennsylvania so key?
Aaron Troodler:
So I think they're going to have a very significant influence. There are a lot of people saying these days that the path to the presidency runs through Pennsylvania, and I do think that there's a degree of truth to that.
But in fact, I believe that the path to the presidency may very well run through the Jewish community, not just in Pennsylvania, but more specifically, in the greater Philadelphia area.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
How much of an influence are they going to have in this election?
Aaron Troodler:
Ballpark, the Jewish population in Pennsylvania is estimated somewhere between 400,000, a little bit north of that figure. Of that 400,000 and change, it's estimated that approximately 300,000 or so are of voting age. And when you take into account that in 2020, Joe Biden beat then-President Donald Trump only by about 80,000 votes cast in Pennsylvania.
And then, if you look back to 2016, Donald Trump won by only about 44,000 votes. We're talking about very slim margins here, and the outsized influence of the greater Jewish community is really going to shine through in this election.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Now, are you talking about Philadelphia city proper, or suburban Philadelphia? Is there a difference in how the two vote?
Aaron Troodler:
Great question, Manya, focusing primarily on suburban Pennsylvania. You have, for example, in 2019, the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia–and I know this goes back five years, but it's the most recent data we have–did a population study, a community profile. And they looked at basically five counties, give or take, including Philadelphia County, which includes the city, but also 4 suburban counties: Bucks, Chester, Delaware, and Montgomery.
And approximately at that point– again, dating back five years–but there are approximately 195,000 Jewish households at the time. And that number has grown over the past several years. I won't be able to really quantify it, because we don't have the actual data, but it's a significant number.
And you know, when you take into account that Pennsylvania's Fourth Congressional District, which is represented by Madeleine Dean, it's mostly Montgomery County, which is suburban Philadelphia County. It's got the largest Jewish population in the state, in terms of congressional districts. It's very significant.
And then the second largest is Pennsylvania's first congressional district, which is represented by Brian Fitzpatrick. And again, there are about 40,000 Jewish adults in that district. 54,000 or so, give or take, in the Montgomery County area. We're talking about big numbers.
And I think what's happening now is just by virtue of where we are as a Jewish community, whether it be antisemitism, and being very cognizant of the frightening rise of antisemitism, whether it be on college campuses, city streets, social media platforms. People are very mindful of that, and rightfully so.
And then when you throw into the equation the current situation involving Israel and the reverberations felt around the world just resulting from the Israel-Hamas war post-October 7, the Jewish community, I think, is mobilized now, perhaps even more than ever, to make their voices heard. And to do that, they would be going and voting and making their voices heard through their choices in the election.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You just mentioned the rise of antisemitism. What issues are guiding the Jewish vote? Because I know in years past, concerns about the economy have really steered the Jewish vote. Is that still true in the 2024 election?
Aaron Troodler:
It's an interesting point you raise Manya, because I think historically, the Jewish community, and I'm over-generalizing by saying the Jewish community. Obviously, it’s comprised of several denominations who historically have had potentially different political leanings. But I think a lot of the domestic issues, whether it be the economy, reproductive rights, taxes, immigration, I mean, I think all these things are on people's radar screens.
However, I think there is a particular emphasis now on Israel. I think that is front and center. I know historically in the Orthodox community, that has been the case. I think that has carried over to the conservative community, the reform community, other communities. And I think the survival of the Jewish state and the health and strength of the US-Israel relationship is paramount to Jewish voters. Not to the exclusion of the other issues that we're talking about on the domestic front.
But I think people are viewing this election through a different lens, just by virtue of the circumstances that we're discussing, that our brethren in Israel are facing. And I think that is really informing people's votes, whether it be for Kamala Harris or Donald Trump. And that's a whole other conversation we could have, but I think that that really is front and center, maybe not the sole factor, but most certainly a primary factor.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So how does that translate? I mean, many believe that the Biden administration has been quite supportive of Israel. Others believe it has not been supportive enough.
Aaron Troodler:
Right. Well, I think the answer depends on who you ask. I think there is a very strong case to be made that the Biden administration and Kamala Harris was obviously a pivotal part of that administration, has been supportive of Israel, and I think there's a lot of conversation that centers around President Biden's response and reaction to October 7, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the Hamas attacks, and how he handled it at that time. I think on the other side of the equation you have people pointing to Donald Trump's presidency and saying, Hey, he perhaps might be the best president that the Jewish community, slash Israel, has ever had, just by virtue of some of the things he did while he was in office.
I think this is all leading to a very spirited debate, a very robust conversation about people who feel very passionate, you know, A or B. And I don't know that there's all that much consensus. I think people that are supportive of Kamala Harris are adamant and positive that she will be best for Israel. And conversely, people who are on the other side of the coin and feel that Donald Trump is their chosen candidate are making the same choice for Donald Trump.
So I don't know that there's a particular answer to that question, but I do firmly believe that that has become a defining issue for the Jewish community. And it's just remarkable to me that people, perhaps I'm over generalizing, you know, 50% of the population is saying, you know, she is absolutely, unquestionably, the best friend that we've had and will have, and then you have the same people saying similar things about Donald Trump.
So it's hard to quantify, but I do think that it has really, really become pervasive, meaning the notion of Israel and the central role that is playing this election, it's absolutely pivotal. And people are, I think, are really making their choices on who to support based on their assessment of those issues.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Just to clarify, you said the same people are saying that about Trump. You meant the same percentage of people, right?
Aaron Troddler:
Correct, give or take. The Jewish Democratic Council of America (JDCA) has done a poll, and they found, you know, over 70% of the Jewish community is supporting Kamala Harris, as opposed to 20-25% for Donald Trump. You have polls, you have data from the Republican Jewish Coalition that shows that half the voters are supporting Donald Trump. These figures are bouncing around. I mean, obviously we've seen in the past polls definitely have value to them, but I think the real test, the real result, won't be really known until election day.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You mentioned denominational differences, but what about generational differences? Are younger Jewish voters leaning toward a particular candidate, or toward particular issues that are different than the ones that concern older voters?
Aaron Troodler:
Great question. I'm personally not seeing it. I have young adult children, let's call them, who are invested in terms of who they're voting for. You have people that I encounter that are on the opposite end of the spectrum, perhaps in their golden years, who are very opinionated in terms of who they want to vote for.
I think what's, you know, an interesting thing here, and again, it’s not really, I don't know if it's quantifiable by denomination. But I think another thing that is important to mention, Manya, is, you still have, I know we're only several days prior to election day. There's still a healthy amount of people that are, I think, truly undecided. I think a lot of people, particularly in the Jewish community, that I've spoken with and encountered, are really torn.
In Pennsylvania we are getting an absolute barrage of campaign mail, TV ads, canvassers knocking on doors. There's a lot of that, particularly in the Philadelphia suburbs, and a good amount of those, again, I know they're targeting the Jewish community, focus on Israel and antisemitism. And you look at a piece of mail for one particular candidate, and it makes it sound like the other one is the devil.
And then flip the coin and it's the opposite for the other candidate. I think people are really trying to cut through the noise and get to the heart of the matter and make their own assessment. You can't really focus on the demographics in terms of age and whatnot.
I think it's an across the board issue that people are focusing on. The people who are pro-Trump are pro-Trump, the people who are pro-Harris are pro-Harris, and then you have this whole sliver in the middle that I think are truly undecided. Even with the election looming large.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Is that just because they're getting conflicting messages, and they're just easily swayed one way or the other, and therefore they're torn, or are they waiting for something? Are they waiting for some deciding factor to reveal itself?
Aaron Troodler:
I'm actually not sure if it's either. I don't know that they're waiting for something per se, because if they are, that quote, unquote thing may never come and they have to make a determination. I do feel that there are some in the Jewish community, and I think the Harris campaign has acknowledged this in events that they've had featuring the Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff, who obviously is Jewish, who would become the first Jewish first spouse.
But there's been an acknowledgement by renowned and well known surrogates of the Harris campaign that there are some reservations in the Jewish community. They're not giving credence to those hesitations that people might have, in terms of Kamala Harris and her position on Israel, or what that might look like. They're just acknowledging that it's there, and they recognize that they have to speak to that issue.
I think on the flip side of the coin, you have people who are looking at Donald Trump, and say, oh he moved the embassy to Jerusalem, and he recognized Israel's sovereignty over the Golan Heights, and he said that the settlements in the West Bank are not illegal, you know, per se under international law. And people are looking at those and they say, Wow, he did some great stuff.
And then those same people may look at Donald Trump as a candidate and say, Is he the best person for our country? And that's a determination that they're trying to make, and I think are having a lot of trouble doing so just because of the different packed factors that are kind of pulling and tugging at them in different directions.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I want to go back to the Israel-Hamas war. What about that war are people thinking about when it comes to supporting a candidate? In other words, are they looking at the 101 hostages that are still in captivity, and what the candidates are saying, or how they're treating that situation? Or are they looking at humanitarian aid issues when it comes to Gaza? What are they looking at?
Aaron Troodler:
Manya, I think they're looking at all of that, and I think that's all factoring into the equation and the decision making process. And this is where I believe the vice president might be at a little bit of a disadvantage, because she's a prominent member of the current administration, whereas Donald Trump is no longer the president at the moment.
And so they're looking at actions of the administration and parsing each move and each statement. And whether or not that moves the needle, I don't know. But I do think that she has a harder hurdle to overcome vis a vis those issues, because people are really looking at statements that she's made, whether it be about the humanitarian aid that you referred to reaching Gaza and the need for that to happen. People are looking to statements that the President, perhaps, has made relative to Israel and their response.
And on and off over the past year, there have been a number of times when, reportedly, the US has cautioned Israel or advised Israel not to proceed down a certain path. There's been talk about weapon shipments and delays and stuff of that nature. And I think all of those are issues that Kamala Harris has to contend with, just by virtue of association.
And I think there's a lot of folks in the community saying, you know, what would a Harris presidency look like? You know, we know what a Trump presidency looks like vis a vis Israel. What would the Harris presidency look like?
I will say, you know, the President, the Vice President, has seemingly been very supportive of Israel on the issue of antisemitism. Obviously, the National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism that was unveiled by this current administration was heralded by people as a very necessary move. And I know, obviously the Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff, was intimately involved in that as well.
All those things, I think, are factoring into people's decision making process. It's a very complicated decision for many people. And I think that's really something that the Vice President is, I think trying to work through. How does she carve out her own path, and what does that path look like?
Manya Brachear Pashman:
How influential is Pennsylvania's Jewish Governor Josh Shapiro in this race?
Aaron Troodler:
So the saga of Josh Shapiro is obviously well known at this point. He's a governor who wears his Judaism on his sleeve, very proud of it. Will often quote passages relating to Jewish thought. He talks openly about his Shabbat observances and celebrations with his family. And obviously he was seemingly, reportedly, on the cusp of the vice presidency.
I think what's interesting about Josh Shapiro, aside from his religion, is that he's universally well liked, let's call it. I think his appeal throughout Pennsylvania, it does transcend party lines in many places, just by virtue of his approach to government, his commitment to bipartisanship, and how he's been as a governor. I think there's a lot of appeal.
I think the fact that he's become a primary surrogate for the Harris campaign across the country, quite frankly, but more particularly in Pennsylvania. I think people look at that, I think there's certainly a segment of the population that was definitely holding out hope that he might end up as the Vice President of the United States. But I think that you know his willingness to go out on the trail and to and to stump for Kamala Harris and to try and speak about her bona fides as a candidate, and her strengths and what she could do for the country and her vision.
I think people are taking note of that, particularly the Jewish community. Whether that will sway everybody to a particular candidate, I don't know. But I definitely do know that people are taking notice of it because people are speaking about it in a favorable way.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
What is he saying when he stumps for her? What is he saying to get out all those voters?
Aaron Troodler:
Well, he's trying to paint her as basically, not just the best choice, but the only choice. Obviously, he, I guess it's no secret. I don't think he's really a fan of Donald Trump, and I don't think he pulls any punches when it comes to that regard. But I think in Josh Shapiro's mind, the governor really firmly believes that the Vice President is the best person to lead this country forward.
And I think when you when you factor in all the issues, for example, we talked about domestic issues at the outset of the conversation, when you look at all those issues, and you don't only make it about Israel, there's a thought that perhaps Kamala Harris is that person, and that's the message that Josh Shapiro’s trying to convey.
You know, obviously Trump supporters look at that and shake their heads, because they don't buy into that. But I think in terms of the case that he's trying to make to the voters, particularly to Jewish voters, it is a compelling case, because he's a compelling messenger.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You talked about canvassers being all over Pennsylvania, especially the greater Philadelphia area. Can you paint a scene for our listeners? I mean, do you see teams of people walking the streets? Have people knocked on your doors, rung your doorbell? Tell me what kind of things you're seeing. What you see day to day in Greater Philadelphia.
Aaron Troodler:
I think I can probably measure the amount of canvassers by the number of door hangers that have been left on my front door over the past several months. There's a huge effort. You have people coming from different states. All descending on Pennsylvania. And there is a particular emphasis on the Jewish community, particularly in suburban Philadelphia.
I was covering an event for the Philadelphia Jewish Exponent a number of weeks ago, where Doug Emhoff came and was the featured speaker at a Get Out The Jewish [Vote] event in a Philadelphia suburb. Ben Stiller was there, the well known actor. Senator Ben Cardin, who is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, came up from Maryland. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the congresswoman from Florida, was there.
It's a full blown effort on the part of both campaigns to try and cultivate the Jewish vote, try to generate more Jewish support. Both sides of the coin. I think you know, the Republican Jewish Coalition has put a very significant emphasis on this election, whether it be through ads, whether it be through surrogates, whether it be through the canvassers, they're everywhere.
And I think I think it's good. I think it's not only does it underscore the importance of Philadelphia's Jewish community in in an election that literally has national implications, but it enables people. When somebody knocks on your door, if you answer the door, you can engage in a dialogue. Obviously they are slanted to a particular candidate, whether it be Kamala Harris or Donald Trump, and that's fine, but it gives voters who perhaps are still undecided at this point the opportunity to have a conversation with the folks who are knocking on their doors about the issues that are important to them.
But I think just by virtue of the sheer number of canvassers who have been kind of traversing our neighborhoods over the past several weeks, I think it's indicative of the outsized role that Philadelphia's Jewish community’s playing in the presidential election.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You mentioned Governor Shapiro is kind of a surrogate for the Harris-Walz campaign. Does the Trump campaign have a surrogate in Pennsylvania or in the Philadelphia area?
Aaron Troodler:
So they have people who are coming around. There's Peter Deutsch, who's a former congressman from Florida, who's a democratic congressman from Florida, came up to not just Pennsylvania, but the greater Philadelphia area, in particular, to spend several weeks. I know he was here over the Sukkot holiday. You know, they are bringing folks in because they're trying to make the case to people that look, you know, when it comes to the issues that you, the Jewish community, cares about, Donald Trump's your man.
And they are doing that, and they're trying to do it in a way that will resonate with people. And we mentioned some high profile people on the Democratic side. You know there are people on the Republican side, whether it's Congressman Deutsch, other people are coming in. The RJC has been very active in the community recently.
And in addition to official campaign surrogates, you know you have conversations happening in synagogues, you know, community institutions, where regular folks are conversing with one another. So each campaign, in addition to the, let's call them the official surrogates, you have these armies of unofficial surrogates who are talking with one another and trying to convince their peers to vote for a particular candidate.
And with all the holidays that we just had on the Jewish calendar, spent a lot of time in shul, in the synagogue, and there’s a lot of folks talking about the presidential election. And I'll tell you, quite frankly, there's no consensus. There are people that are absolutely pro-Trump, and they're people that are absolutely pro-Harris. And I think those folks are trying to impart to what's called the undecided people, their feelings about the campaign and their particular candidates.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I do want to clarify for listeners, Peter Deutsch should not be confused with Ted Deutch, AJC CEO, who has not been in Pennsylvania canvassing as a surrogate for either candidate. It's a different Deutsch.
But what about rabbis? How involved are rabbis getting into this campaign? How involved have they been in these conversations?
Aaron Troodler:
So it's interesting. Whenever you broach the topic of politics from the pulpit, it becomes very tricky. Obviously, there’s 501(c)(3) status considerations and stuff of that nature that I think rabbis are always mindful of. So what they talk about from the pulpit and how they talk about it is usually done very carefully and deliberately. That all being said, there's no question that maybe, behind the scenes, let's call it, rabbis, have very distinct opinions about this.
How that will sway congregants in their respective congregations, it's hard to know. But I do think, I think because rabbis have spent so much time over the past year, post-October 7, talking about these issues of Israel's security and survival and the things that we need to do to help Israel, this is just another step in that process. Obviously, the next President of the United States is going to play a pivotal role in Israel's future and Israel's security.
The relationship between the US and Israel is paramount, and Israel depends heavily on the United States, whether it be for the military aid, strategic aid and cooperation. And on the other side of the coin, the United States relies on Israel for many national and security considerations.
But I think because rabbis have spent so much time talking about that stuff, it's top of mind for everybody. It's at the forefront of all of our minds. And whether or not they get up from the pulpit and endorse a particular candidate, I’m not sure that's going to happen in most situations, but there's no question that rabbis are trying to convey to their congregants the importance of ensuring that Israel has a strong friend and ally in the White House.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Aaron, thank you so much for joining us and shedding a little light on what's going on in your neck of the woods.
Aaron Troodler:
Of course Manya, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure chatting with you.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for a conversation with AJC Jerusalem Director Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich, and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, Jason Isaacson, about the Israeli Defense Force’s elimination of Yahya Sinwar, the architect of the October 7 terror attacks.
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How will the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar affect Israel's security and regional stability? What are the implications for the 101 hostages still held by Hamas?
Join us as AJC Jerusalem Director Lt. Col. (res.) Avital Leibovich and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson discuss the Israeli Defense Forces' recent elimination of the terror leader responsible for orchestrating the October 7 attacks and thousands of deaths. They’ll break down the impact of the unfolding situation and what comes next.
Watch – Israel Update: Analyzing the Impact of Yahya Sinwar’s Death - AJC Advocacy Anywhere
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
From Doña Gracia to Deborah Lipstadt: What Iconic Jewish Women Can Teach Us Today
The Nova Music Festival Survivor Saved by an 88-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Conversation with Jason Isaacson and Avital Leibovich:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Last week, Israeli Defense Forces killed Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, the architect of the October 7 terror attacks. His death comes two months after the murder of six hostages who he had been using as his human shields. What comes next? How will Sinwar's death impact the dynamics within Hamas and the broader conflict between Israel and other Iran-backed proxies? What are the potential implications for Israel's security and regional stability? And what does this mean for the 101 hostages still being held by Hamas?
For answers to those pressing questions, AJC welcomed its Jerusalem director, Lt. Colonel Avital Leibovich and Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson, for an in-depth analysis of the unfolding situation. Here's a portion of that conversation.
Jason Isaacson:
Thanks very much. Before we begin our discussion, Avital, please allow me to again express to you, my and all our AJC colleagues and supporters' gratitude for your consistent availability throughout this difficult, dangerous period, to brief the AJC family on the challenges that Israel faces, the trauma that Israel suffered on October 7, on and onward, and the remarkable resilience of the people of Israel in the face of terrorism. Allow me also to wish you and your family and our AJC colleagues in Jerusalem a healthy and, let's hope, a more peaceful New Year.
We are meeting now one week after a major development, perhaps even a turning point in Israel's necessary war against Hamas, the killing of the terrorist organization's leader, the murderous mastermind of October 7, Yahya Sinwar by the IDF in Rafah in southern Gaza. I want to hear your thoughts on the ramifications of that successful operation, which has been praised by the US and other world leaders. But first, let me ask you two questions.
First, how was the IDF able to finally track down this most-wanted war criminal. And second, how did Sinwar's elimination figure in Israel's set of priority objectives for the self defensive campaign that it has been conducting in Gaza?
Avital Leibovich:
Thank you, Jason, for your kind opening words, and it's always good to be with you here on another what I think will be an interesting session for our listeners. So it was the day of October 16, few days ago, IDF troops, actually reserve units, were working in a neighborhood in Rafah called El Sultan neighborhood. This is approximately one kilometer from Israel, so it's a relatively short distance, they have identified.
These soldiers have identified three suspicious figures, between moving from one area to another, between buildings. And they fired towards the suspects, and then the group split into two. Two of them stayed in one area and another one stayed in another building. And in order to make sure that buildings are not booby trapped, so the forces are not endangered, what the IDF often does, it sends a drone with a camera inside the building, searching and checking out to see who is exactly there, and then they saw on a couch in the corner of a living room.
This was, by the way, a very fancy villa in this neighborhood. They saw a figure sitting there, with his head covered, with his face covered, and armed with a weapon, with grenades, and they fired. They understood that this is a terrorist, and they fired towards that person.
Because, again, there was danger of the amount of explosives that were placed in this specific house, it took only 24 hours until the forces return and then search the house. When they got to this terrorist sitting on the arm chair, they suddenly realized that it looked very similar to Sinwar. But in order to check, you know whether it was Sinwar or not, they had to take a DNA sample from one of his fingers. And Sinwar has been in Israeli prisons for many years, and therefore his DNA samples is already there. So it took a few more hours, and then it was identified, finally, as Yahya Sinwar.
And of course, it was a big press briefing announcement by the Prime Minister, by the army and so on. What else was found on his body was the following: a small gun, a big rifle, flak jacket filled with different kinds of grenades, 40,000 shekels, which is equivalent of something like $12,000 in cash, a passport--of someone else--an UNWRA certificate of another person. Another identity. And that's more or less what was found.
The two others that split from him and went to another house were actually his bodyguards. Later on, when the army searched deeper, it reached a conclusion that the tunnel that six hostages were held in and were murdered viciously by Hamas just six weeks before, were just a few 100 meters from where Sinwar was, and they also found out that actually they served as human shields for Sinwar until he escaped. So basically he was running from one place to another until he was found that day, 16 of October in that building.
Jason Isaacson:
How high on the list of Israel's military objectives in Gaza was the elimination of Sinwar?
Avital Leibovich:
So, yeah, you can imagine that, since he's the number one terrorist of Hamas, and he is the mind behind October 7, obviously he was ranked very high on the list of Most Wanted. I can say that his brother, Muhammad, is still on that list. And Israel has announced already that it will hunt Muhammad as well. And I think that there was a ray of light on October 17. It was exactly when it was announced officially that Sinwar was eliminated. I think every Israeli home was as much as we could under the circumstances express joy that Sinwarwas gone.
Jason Isaacson:
You could imagine supporters of Israel around the world and our country, but all over, I think, shared that sentiment as well. But let's talk about the ramifications now of Sinwar's death for Hamas and also for the Islamic Republic of Iran, which has provided money, weapons training guidance to Hamas. I have a few related questions. First, Hamas has already put forward the claim that its fight continues, that it isn't relinquishing its hold on Gaza. Can Hamas still legitimately make that claim, that it is in control in Gaza?
Avital Leibovich:
So I think that if we're looking at, you know, the comments from all over the world regarding primarily the terror groups in Iran, we see a lot of support for the way of Hamas.. Sinwar was actually painted as a shahid, a martyr, as someone who fought until the very last minute, who act in a very brave way. In other words, it's some kind of glorification for Sinwar, but also for Hamas, in another way. I have to say that even the PLO, the Executive Committee of the PLO actually offered condolences for the death of Sinwar, which was also quite disturbing, I have to say.
And Abu Mazen's party Fatah, one of the members of the Fatah, the guy by the name of Abbas Zaki, said that Sinwar has chosen, and I'm quoting, "An exit worthy of his heroism and the heroism of his people." So that's the mood in the Palestinian Street, and that's the mood among the other Arab terror groups, Muslim terror groups, extremists in Iran, in Hezbollah and other places. So the question is, what are now Israel's immediate goals in Gaza following Sinwar's death. So Israel has been concentrating in one main area, and this is an area very close to the envelope of Gaza. It's what we call northern part of Gaza, primarily an area called Jabalia.
Jabalia is a place that, according to the Israeli intelligence, unfortunately, there has been a big crowding of Hamas terrorists who are taking shelters in schools or in local civilian facilities where civilians are. So Israel has been trying to encourage the population to go out of this part of Gaza, northern Gaza. It has been doing so by leaflets, by phone calls, by messages on their phones and so on. The problem was, the challenge was with this situation, that Hamas prohibited the population of leaving. But when Sinwar died, this has changed, and we saw two interesting things in the Palestinian Street in Gaza. Number one, people have started to move from the northern part of Gaza. Actually, 20,000 people already relocated from that area. We saw 150 Hamas terrorists turn themselves in.
But we also saw, Jason, another thing which we have not seen in a long time. And these are multitudes of Gazans which are not being afraid to speak to the camera with their faces totally uncovered, exposed and cursing Hamas and cursing Sinwar and wanting a better future for themselves. So this is actually, this phenomenon is actually growing more and more. So while Israel is working in Jabalia, there's a still part of the army which is working in Rafah, in the Rafah area, Tel Sultan is one of the neighborhoods, as we mentioned before. So it's still very tactical. There are still a lot of rockets that are flowing in from from Gaza. We're not at the end, at this point of time. And if you'd like, we can dig into the numbers of you know, the achievements that Israel has in Gaza.
Jason Isaacson:
Yeah, stay on this for a second. This is fascinating. I mean, it sounds like what you're sayingis that the kind of the culture of fear that Hamas has used to basically make it impossible for Palestinians to think of an alternative form of governance or an alternative relationship with Israel, that culture is at least been been damaged by the death of Sinwar, not eliminated, probably, but certainly weakened, which does give you some hope that there can be a day after in which there's a very different governing structure, a very different mentality in that exists in Gaza.
Avital Leibovich:
About the whole part, I'm not so sure. I have to say I want to be very hopeful, but we're not there yet. And I'll tell you why.
Jason Isaacson:
Long term, long term.
Avital Leibovich:
Long term, for sure, I'll tell you, but I want to be more concise in my answer, because you know, one of the things I'm sure people are asking themselves, is: is Sinwar replaceable? So I want to share with you six figures that are the potential list for replacing Sinwar. Number one is Khaled Mashal, is a well known personality. He's currently the head of what we call the external Hamas leadership. As you know, Hamas has two other countries, which they are based in. Qatar in Turkey. He served also as the predecessor of Sinwar, and he lives in Qatar. That's number one.
Number two, Musa Abu Mazug. It's another known figure. He was in Sinwar's position a long time ago. He lives in Qatar as well. Then we have Muhammad Al-wish. He is the head of the Hamas Shura Council. He's considered, actually a shadow figure, and does not appear in public too much, but he deals with Hamas policy, and he lives in Qatar. He's known for his connections with the Iranians. The next person is Khalil al Haya. He is the deputy head of the political bureau of Hamas. Actually, he is the deputy of Sinwar. I would say he's more kind of a gray kind of figure. He lives in Qatar. He also has some involvement on ceasefire and negotiation talks, release of the hostages.
And then we have Muhammad Nazal, another member of the Hamas political bureau, one of the most prominent spokespeople for the Hamas terror group. And the last one is Zaher Jabarin, member of the Hamas political bureau since 2021 and he's also in charge of the Judea Samaria area, or the West Bank, and he lives in Turkey. So these are the potential replacements for Sinwar. And the question here really remains, who will take the lead, whether it will be another figure from Gaza, or will it be an external figure?
And of course, each of the options has its own consequences. So if we're looking at Qatari based Hamas leaders, which have which are more prone to pressure from the US or from other countries. That's one reason to be optimistic vis a vis maybe a future deal with the hostages. But if we're looking at someone from Gaza, or someone from the West Bank will come to Gaza, then I think we're looking at more of the same kind of scenario. So this is where we are in terms of the current situation in Hamas and Hamas leadership. Let's see what conclusion they will reach.
Jason Isaacson:
Sinwar's brother is not considered in line for promotion?
Avital Leibovich:
So you know, the opinions here vary. There are those who say that since he's hunted by Israel, then he will not have the capability to deal with it. There are others that say that he is a natural replacement. But I gave you the list on purpose so you can understand that the options are not just one or two people, but more than that.
Jason Isaacson:
So let's talk about what the implications of Sinwar's death are for the fate of the hostages. It's been over a year. There are 101 still held, many of them no longer alive. We understand a desperate situation in brutal captivity held by Hamas. What AJC was hearing before the death of Sinwar, when we were having meetings on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly with people who had intimate knowledge of the negotiating process with Hamas,was that there had been no response for a month from Sinwar on the possibility of a hostage release-ceasefire deal. Does the death of Sinwar make it harder, make it easier to be able to resume negotiations? What is your sense?
Avital Leibovich:
So yeah, that's the big question. The big question is, now, who is in control? Because with Sinwar gone, obviously Hamas in Qatar will have the capability to influence more. He was the main barrier to any deal that was proposed. That's the reason that a few days ago, earlier this week, the head of Shabaq Secret Services was rushed to Egypt with some kind of an offer. And actually, when Secretary Blinken just ended his visit a few hours ago in Israel, what he said next to his plane before he left was about his, I would say, strategy for the potential hostage deal.
And the strategy says that, instead of going for the big deal of 101 hostages with stages, you know, being released in different stages, let's try to feel the water. And let's say we are talking about a smaller deal with a minimal amount of time for ceasefire, with just a few hostages that will be released. So in other words, not a very threatening deal, but something to work with. And here again, the question is, if the Hama leadership in Qatar will be able to go along with this kind of deal, I think we're in a very, very narrow window of opportunities.
And I think this is the reason why Secretary Blinken isnot leaving the area yet, and he's continuing from one Arab capital to another. I know that he is in Riyadh now, and he's still continuing to other areas tomorrow as well. So that really remains the question. Whether the leadership of Hamas in Qatar will have the capability to lead a deal, even a smaller deal. If that will come across, then we can open the window wider and we can shoot for a bigger deal. You're right.
There are 101 hostages held in horrible conditions, terrible conditions. Some of the bodies, you know, Jason, that were retrieved to Israel, were weighed. And a girl who is 24 years old, was weighing 36 kilograms.That equals to a weight of a third grader, something like that. So we do understand that it'severy day that passes is critical. The estimation is that there are 44 hostages which are no longer living. But the number may be higher because the intelligence information isas you know, not 100%.
Jason Isaacson:
Thank you, Avital.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
To listen to the rest of their conversation, head to the link in our show notes, and if you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in to the conversation between my colleague Alexandra Herzog and author Aliza Lavie about her latest book, "Iconic Jewish Women."
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What do Doña Gracia, Glückel of Hameln, and Deborah Lipstadt have in common? They are all celebrated as iconic Jewish women in Dr. Aliza Lavie's incisive book, "Iconic Jewish Women". Dr. Lavie’s book features 59 remarkable role models, highlighting the significance of women's voices and leadership in the Jewish community.
In a compelling conversation guest-hosted by Dr. Alexandra Herzog, the national deputy director of AJC’s Contemporary Jewish Life department, Lavie reflects on her grandmother's strength and her own experiences serving in the Israeli army and parliament. By showcasing the resilience and leadership of Jewish women throughout history—some stories well-known, others less recognized—Dr. Lavie emphasizes the need to confront the pervasive silence surrounding antisemitism. She urges us to learn from those who have paved the way, advocating for greater awareness and action against this global issue.
*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
The Nova Music Festival Survivor Saved by an 88-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor
Is Nasrallah’s Death a Game-Changer? Matthew Levitt Breaks What’s at Stake for Israel, Iran, and Hezbollah
At the UN General Assembly: Jason Isaacson Highlights Israel's Challenges and the Fight Against Antisemitism
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Interview with Aliza Lavie:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Former Israeli Knesset member, Aliza Lavie is the author of six books, including the award winning "A Jewish Women's Prayer Book". Her latest, "Iconic Jewish Women"–59 inspiring, courageous, revolutionary role models for young girls, introduces readers to amazing women from Queen Esther to Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and others in between, many of whom have been overlooked, but offer inspiring tales.
My colleague, Alexandra Herzog, is the national deputy director of AJC’s Contemporary Jewish life department, and another amazing woman. She is our guest host this week, and she had the honor of speaking with Dr. Lavie. Alexandra, the mic is yours.
Alexandra Herzog:
It's an honor and great pleasure to welcome Dr. Aliza Lavie to People of the Pod today. She's the author of six books. I want to especially highlight the two latest ones, "A Jewish Women's Prayer Book," which won a National Jewish Book Award in 2008. And the latest one that we will be talking about today, "Iconic Jewish Women".
In many ways, Aliza gives voice to women who have been forgotten from Jewish history, and for that, I and so many women are so very grateful.
Since this book is about women, I want to make sure we don't forget all the women who are still held hostage by Hamas in Gaza. Not just our women, but also the children and the men. May we bring them all back.
Okay, let's dive into the conversation. Aliza, welcome to People of the Pod.
Aliza Lavie:
Thank you so much, Alexandra.
Alexandra Herzog:
It's very interesting that you have focused much of your writing about and for women. Let's also remind our listeners that your academic and professional background show your very long standing interest in women's issues. During your time in the Knesset, you served as the chair of the Committee on the Status of Women and Gender Equality, and the chair of the Committee to Combat Women Trafficking and Prostitution. So let me ask you this. Why this interest? Where does it stem from?
Aliza Lavie:
I believe in equality, and we need to work for it. We need men and women together to build a society. My grandmother came from Afghanistan, together with her husband. It was 1920, many, many years ago. They came to Jerusalem as a Zionist before Israel was established and became part of Jerusalem. They built and established a Bukharian neighborhood in Jerusalem, very, very old neighborhood.
But my granny, she lost her husband years after, two, three years after. Suddenly, she found herself without a voice, without a language, and she raised nine children. At that time, it was the big war just before Israel was established. And my granny, my granny, knew all the halachic code and all the Torah by heart. And always I asked myself, who told her? Who gave her the information?
And more, I became, you know, part of the Israeli society, as an officer in the army, in the Israeli army, and later as a lecturer at the University, and later became a parliament member and activist in Israel. So I found myself asking questions without finding answers. And I say to myself, come on, be part of the tikkun, be part of changing the mood.
Not because it's women's issue or problems, it's because the society needs men and women together, otherwise the society will lose. And more we have our part and position in Israeli society, in the Jewish world, in all of the world, we will build a better world for all of us.
I can declare and give lectures about it, but the question is, what are you doing? How have you become a part of this? So I find myself starting as a social activist and at that time, I had a 20 years TV show in the Israeli broadcasting. And I find myself asking questions, bringing more women to the TV show, and you have to see role models around you. And I found that we have a lot of answers, but we need to continue working.
Alexandra Herzog:
Iconic Jewish Women offers readers 59 role models. And you were just now talking about role models, the book was designed as a bat mitzvah gift for girls celebrating their Jewish coming of age. But it's really about discovering one's Jewish identity and Jewish heritage. What is particularly compelling to you about that, about also the Bat Mitzvah practice in general?
Aliza Lavie:
I asked myself, what is going on? You know, the big roads in the streets, most of them named after men. How come there is not even one public place in Israel named after Golda Meir? How come? Why is that? And it's not only questions of awareness. It's a question of knowledge and position and role models.
And the more I become familiar with the fact that I'm not that familiar with my heritage, with my history as a Jewish woman, as an Israeli woman. And even though women from the Bible, what really we know about Deborah the Prophet, or Miriam, the prophet or Esther the queen. Okay, so all of us, and the girls especially wants to be Esther the queen with a nice dress. But Esther the queen, she became from beauty queen to a leader.
She was the one that told Mordechai, okay, you want me to go to the king without permission, so do something fast three days. And then it was a huge fight between still and old high. And what Mordechai told her, No, no, no, we can't fast three days. But she gave him the order, and she was the one that told him that we should do it, to have future. So suddenly, from a woman in the megila, she became the leader, and more than that, in the end, she wrote, remember me for the next generation. She knew that women in the future will need her knowledge, her help, her position, her role modeling.
So more of you became familiar with the presence that our mothers, the women that were here before us, gave to us, so you will become much stronger. And more than that, Alexandra, you can find your only voice in a world that we are living in a very, very challenging time, increasing antisemitism and political instability, a lack of leadership and growing disconnected from a tradition, and we in Israel, in the middle of a war, where a brave soul who took responsibility.
Alexandra Herzog:
And I think that that's really a project that you did also in your previous book, Tefillat Nashim, A Jewish Women's Prayer Book, you explore Jewish identities through the rich tradition of women's prayers that is often absent from traditional historical or religious consciousness. Is Iconic Jewish Women, in some ways, also a project about restoring, reclaiming and recovering?
Aliza Lavie:
You are so right. And thanks for this question. My previous book, when I first spoke, Tefillat Nashim, A Jewish Women's Prayer Book. Actually, it's a collection of prayers that were written by women. When I start my journey, my research, nobody believed and felt that Jewish women wrote prayers. More than that, some professors wrote, Jewish women? They didn't know how to write, or they didn't allow the, you know, by the spiritual leaders to write, and they didn't know Hebrew or other languages.
And always, when I find myself as a politician or social activist, in a position that I didn't know what to do, I thought: what other women did when you can't find answer yourself? You have to go and make your own research. And believe it or not, I found ancient prayers. Actually the most ancient one is from the 13th century written by Paula [dei Mansi], the daughter of Rabbi Abraham [Anau] in Milan, north of Italy.
And actually, Paula, she copied the book we are talking about before the printing press time, and only men were allowed to copy books, because you need knowledge. So when I found this prayer in the end of the book named Yehudah de Trani, and she copied it. In the end, she wrote a prayer in Hebrew. Who was Paula, who taught her Hebrew, who gave her the thinking that you can add prayer for good days, for redemption, for coming back to Israel. 13th century.
And what about us? What about our knowledge and level of Hebrew and the permission to write your own personal prayer. And we are talking 13th century, not our days. So a lot of understanding about our position. Sometimes we think that, you know, in our generation, everything is open, and we are brave people and I suggest that we need to be a little bit modest and bring back knowledge from the past with the tools of our days and continue to tell the story.
Alexandra Herzog:
I was particularly intrigued, really, by the choice of women that you picked, as well, actually, as the organizing format of the book. The women are not in chronological order, but rather in alphabetical order.
So one of the things that I particularly love about the book is the fact that the reader is asked to actively engage with the content and to add their own stories to a vast historical network of political, scientific, activist, literary, and religious figures. What advice would you give to young women aspiring to make a difference in the world?
Aliza Lavie:
First of all, think about your dream. About your dream, and don't hesitate. You can make it. You can make it. And find role models for your lives. You know, you ask, Why I put alphabetic? By the way, in Hebrew, it's 71 women, and I hope in the next book to add much more women or in the technological project that I'm working on, and I invite girls, women men, to add their voice and to use the tools that they are professional with.
Remind yourself that one of us can make a story in the TikTok, video about Doña Gracia. The richest Jewish woman in the 16th century. She was the one that took control during the Inquisition about her brothers and sister in Spain and Portugal. Who was she? And how come that, you know, she became back to her Hebrew name Chana, and what is all about her and why we are not that familiar with her?
Take the opportunity during your Bat Mitzvah or family dinner to share a little bit or to ask people and to open a discussion and bringback, see something again new. Go out of your comfortable area and find and bring back and tell your friends and be ambassadors. Because it's not a history book. It's not a history book.
And another thing I want to mention why I chose these amazing women, they didn't plan to be famous. They were in the right time for and chose to be helpful for the Jewish people and the Israeli society. When they found, like Henrietta, Golda, other names in this book, that the people of Israel need them. Need their help, or no one did something to stop the issue or to be there. They were there.
Alexandra Herzog:
And so you're basically inviting young women to really, by engaging also with all of those amazing role models. And by the way, I do think that the you know, the chronological–using an alphabetical order rather than a chronological order, actually adds a lot of dynamism, because it really creates a conversation across time periods between Queen Esther, Glückel of Hameln, Golda Meir, and Deborah Lipstadt. And so, you know, the person, the reader is really asked to add their voice to this amazing group of women that they can be a part of. And I think that that acts, that really adds a content and a component of leadership that they can take on into their own life.
Aliza Lavie:
In the end, you can also find timeline of iconic Jewish women, because we not always remember and now which year and Hebrew years and the area, etc, etc.
Alexandra Herzog:
And I love that. And so I was wondering, because the book really delves into Jewish identity across continents, across time periods, sewing together different pieces of our history as a people. And I would be remiss if I didn't connect the difficult time that we are in as a people since October 7 with the powerful examples of leadership we find in the book. And we are asked to look for, around us in our daily lives. What do you think makes the book even more important, at this particular time?
Aliza Lavie:
We’re very upset to find a lot of our colleagues in all over the world, in United Nation and in universities, colleagues. I represent the Israeli parliament in the European Council, and I worked very hard together with other colleagues in the committee of status of women in the European Committee. And suddenly, when you saw all this blaming, and the way that nobody believe in what's happening October the seventh, and what Hamas did to our brothers and sisters and the situation, and the way the world treats us. First of all, you feel that you become betrayed.
What is, what is going on? Why is that? First of all, the aims are laid out in the document of Hamas. But what about the democratic world? Why is that? And when you saw all of this, I think that first we have to put it in a frame that it's not the first time in our history. It's not the first time.
So when you see the story of the Jewish people, and it's maybe a sign for us to understand who are we, where are we coming from, and to remember all the difficult time in Egypt. When Pharoh say to the people of Israel that you know should not have boys, the baby boys, and to kill them. And the fact that brave women, Miriam and her mother, Yocheved, they gave birth to the children, and they didn't pay attention to Pharaoh, and they took control about the future of the people of Israel the men didn't want. And by the way, thanks to them, to these women, the promise of redemption, got from God.
And later in the Inquisition, more women took responsibility, and we know it from all the testimonies and all the understanding, and women that didn't, didn't lost Judaism, didn't lost and and become Christian. And when you see the numbers, you see that more men became Christian, or left the women together with the children.
And later in the Holocaust, we see, and now we are in our days, we see that women, men, of course, brave people around us, men and women, but I see what women did. Women that didn't have a choice. They took control. They protect the people. They protect the children. And when Noa Argamani came back from Gaza, thanks to our soldiers. But Noa Argamani, she was the leader of the soldiers that kidnapped from their basic and Noa, without any help, she was the one that support.
And I can share with you a lot of examples of women that lost their children and are going every day to other families and widows to support, to hug, to give help.
Alexandra Herzog:
The book was published, as you said, before, in both English and Hebrew. Of course, Hebrew and English are the languages spoken by the two largest Jewish communities in the world, Israel and the United States. So how do you think that a book like this can contribute to strengthening Jewish peoplehood and conversations in the Jewish world?
Aliza Lavie:
So knowledge is a power, and let's start with our common history. Let's start with our common heritage. So this book invites you to start, to begin, to continue the conversation between yourself, between you and your spouse, or your family. Of course, your children. That you know what, to bring back the responsibility, parents to the family.
What's happened actually, that in ancient world, the family took responsibility to the Jewish education or belonging, and then later the communities, because when they saw what's happening in the families and later organizations, we can start, you know, discussion about your amazing organization that’s taking the responsibility and think about new directions or legacy or tools to continue.
This book is an invitation to, you know, maybe to grandmothers, to aunts, to teachers, to educators, to organizations, to take knowledge and inspiration from a book like this.
Alexandra Herzog:
Thank you, Aliza. So in a post October 7 world where Jewish women worldwide have had to make their voices heard even more than usual, to denounce the sexual violence that occurred on October 7, the deafening silence of many women's organizations, how has that impacted the conversations you're having? Could you tell us a little bit about how women have been engaging with you about the book?
Aliza Lavie:
When this book was established in Israel, it was before the war, but in Israel that time, it was not an easy time in between the people of Israel that start, you know, many, many voices, again, the government and again, the parliament and etc, etc. And we need to bring, you know, the peaceful and to understand that the enemy is out of us, and for the enemy, all the Jewish are the same. It doesn't matter if you are secular, religious, Orthodox, reconstruction, reform. For them, we had this experience. Remember? Yeah, we had it in the Holocaust. They count seven generations ahead.
Your question is a wake up call, the answer is a wake up call for all of us, for all of us, the citizens, the governments, the Jewish people all over the world. And to start getting serious thinking about the day after. And even now, even now, when you ask yourself, how come that our brothers and sisters are still in Gaza, where is the Red Cross?
So you can blame Israel all the time about that we are not, you know, delivering food to Gaza. But you know what is going on in Gaza. And you know who took all the food, etc. The Hamas. And it's not going to women and children. And what about our people? Where are they? So hypocrisy, yes, tikkun olam, of course. But in between, in between, we need to understand that we Jewish people have to work together and to bring back knowledge from the past. It's not a history lesson.
Alexandra Herzog:
Thank you so much. I love that we end on hope and a better future. So I'm going to keep these words as the last ones, and with the notion I'm going to add of: Bring Them Home. Thank you so much for joining us, Aliza, to People of the Pod.
Aliza Lavie:
Thank you so much, Alexandra, for having me, and we'll pray for good days.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Nova music festival survivor Daniel Vaknin about the horrific events that unfolded on October 7, 2023 and the brave Holocaust survivor who kept him and a handful of others safe and alive that day.
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"I want to show the word that you can choose light . . . no matter how much dark you saw, or what's going on in Israel now, or what's going on in the world, there's still a choice.”
As we mark one year since Hamas’ massacre of Israelis, Israeli DJ Daniel Vaknin, 30, shares his harrowing experience from the Nova Music Festival, where 340 attendees were brutally murdered in the deadliest event in music history.
Vaknin recounts the chaos as rockets from Gaza struck, triggering a desperate evacuation and his narrow escape while being shot at, taking refuge in nearby Kibbutz Sa’ad at the home of an 88-year-old Holocaust survivor. Vaknin highlights the incredible resilience of the Israeli people and the pressing need for global support to bring the hostages home.
*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.
People of the Pod:
Is Nasrallah’s Death a Game-Changer? Matthew Levitt Breaks What’s at Stake for Israel, Iran, and Hezbollah
At the UN General Assembly: Jason Isaacson Highlights Israel's Challenges and the Fight Against Antisemitism
From Rocket Attacks to Exploding Pagers: Michael Oren on Escalating Tensions Between Israel and Hezbollah
Paris 2024: 2 Proud Jewish Paralympians on How Sports Unites Athletes Amid Antisemitism
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Transcript of Interview with Daniel Vaknin:
Manya Brachear Pashman
Daniel Vaknin is a 30-year old Israeli DJ and music event producer. He was not one of the DJs responsible for the soundtrack of the Nova Festival on October 7. He was there as a fan seeking a fun weekend. He arrived less than half an hour before Hamas terrorists stormed the border between Israel and Gaza, killing more than 1,200 people, including more than 300 at the music festival.
Vaknin managed to survive, but since that day, he has dedicated his time to advocating for the hostages still in captivity. As we marked one year this week since the Hamas terror attacks, Daniel is with us now to share the story of his harrowing escape.
Daniel, welcome to People of the Pod.
Daniel Vaknin:
Thank you for having me.
Manya Brachear Pashman
I can’t imagine, I don’t want to imagine being at a music festival like Lollapalooza for example and it all coming to a sudden and terrifying end. But I think it’s important for us to put ourselves in your shoes. Can you take us back to the Nova Festival that morning?
Daniel Vaknin:
So for me, the Nova festival, it's not only the Nova. It's the festival of the trance (with a c) music festivals. It symbolizes and it represents love. It's supposed to represent the connection to the nature it's supposed to represent our connection, no judgment, happiness, joyful, of course, at the end of the day, it's an amazing community of fans of specific genre of music that looking for more and more festivals and more and more events to enjoy, to celebrate, to dance, to express yourself in so many ways. So people think that the festivals or the trance (with a c) music, supposed to be about music, but it's not.
When you go to this kind of festival, to this kind of event, you can walk around and people open up their tents and camps, and they're like way before they plan everything, and they bring their most colorful clothes, and they bring so much food and drinks. And you can really go through the sta;ls and see art and paints and clothes that you can buy and bags that people sell or made by themselves and want to express themselves. People are dancing, it’s a festival. I think that's exactly the description that you're supposed to have when you ask Google, what is a festival?
So it's not only about music. There's so many things in it, and that's what it represents for us, and that's what it represents for me, because not all the time I'm going only to dance. Sometimes I just want to hang out. Sometimes I just want to see new stuff, buy some stuff, and express myself with different people, to meet new people.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Why did it take place on the Gaza envelope? Was it always in that field?
Daniel Vaknin:
So for the people that don't live in Israel, and I'm not saying it in a bad way. I'm just saying in general. I want you to know. I want you to understand. I work in the music industry, in the music production for almost 12 years. To make an event in Israel, unfortunately, Israel is a small country. Where it's a blessing and a curse, because it's a small country and everyone is together, but unfortunately, we don't have a lot of space. And we have a lot of borders, and that's okay.
So 70% of Israel's open space, open fields, are military training. You cannot enter or make any kind of events in almost 70% of the country of the open fields, because the military is training there. And it's like you cannot. It's like high called area 51 that you got here, United States, nobody can enter, right? So that's why we got there. And let's say, and again, what I'm saying right now, it can be a percentage here, a percentage there, but let's say 30% that we got left it's or near borders, Lebanon, up north. We got Syria, we got Jordan, we got Egypt, and now we got Gaza.
And not only that, it means that we got people that owns the lands and maybe doesn't want festivals around their houses, their farms. They don't want you to interrupt the quiet that they have next to their kibbutzim, or, you know, their families, and let's say, even more than that, some of the areas are not proper to have festivals. Like maybe it's too muddy, maybe it's too grassy, maybe it's forest.
Maybe the country, the government there's like, I don't know you call it here, but we have this company. Or maybe it's not the right word, that take care of all the trees and all the forests in Israel, like the government official. And they don't want you to make festivals, because they want to take care of the lands, or they're taking care of the lands right now, or the farms.
So it happened near Gaza only because of one reason. It's Israel. As long as it's Israel, as long as it's a place that’s called Israel, that's a land of our country, I can make parties wherever I want, as long as it's called Israel. It was near Gaza, because the kibbutzim is near Gaza.
It's like to ask Sarah Jackson, the Holocaust survivor that host me while I was escaping, why she is living in Kibbutz Sa’ad next to the border, 2.5 miles. If you ask her, that's her house, that's her home for 50 years, even before Gaza. So I think to explain the best way is that I cannot ask you why you're doing in your balcony a party, because that's yours. Once you're out of your balcony, and that's not your property, I can ask you why you decide, or why you chose to do this. But I think as long as my property, it's Israel.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
There was also a ceasefire in place, and therefore a reasonable sense of confidence that it would remain peaceful and safe.
Daniel Vaknin:
Yes,right. So all this time we have a ceasefire. Everybody knows about it, and I won't tell you that once every three months, every five months, we're going to have a one missile launch from Gaza, and that's okay, you know, in the circumstances, because we have the Iron Dome, and we understand that sometimes it cannot be so peaceful, because things happen. But we have our military, we have our fences, we have our Iron Dome that costs Israel so much money. Every missile, every this kind of huge operation, costs a fortune, and we do the best we can to defend the country without interrupting the peace. So yeah, it was quiet and peaceful.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So let's talk about that day and when that piece was broken for you, where were you? And you mentioned the person who gave you shelter when you escaped. Can you kind of walk us through the events of October 7 for you?
Daniel Vaknin:
October 7 for me, started again a little bit before, because this festival was supposed to start on October 6, 10pm. And was supposed to be one of the biggest festivals that happened, and a good friend of mine was supposed to go. I didn't mean to go because I was supposed to work, and my girlfriend was working there as a bartender, and she arrived with my roommate (back then) around 2am. And both of them called me, and before they left the house, they told me, like, you have to come, if you're not working, I want you to come.
And you know, when your girlfriend, your amazing friend and roommate, ask you to come, you do the best you can to make it happen. And I had a ticket from a good friend of mine, and then we plan to go around 5am to head to the party, and I pick up my friend Ilya, and we headed to the party, and we arrived to the parking lot at around six in the morning. So I know that everybody knows the details right now.
So everybody knows that 29 minutes from now, my life's going to be changed forever. But the most important thing is that when people when I'm talking about it, I think what's important for me is that people need to understand that now you know the details, but we didn't know. We always have this amazing feeling above our heads. We always had this blessing that we're coming for the best festival ever, and everything gonna be amazing.
I want people to understand it, to realize that we didn't had any attention or thinking about something else besides having the best time. So we arrived at the parking lot, we parked a car, and we had it towards the festival, and good friends of ours was coming outside of the party to go to the car, to bring some stuff, and we're so happy. And we hugged, and we had a great time talking, like, really, what's going on in the festival? We're so excited to go inside and see.
And then it was the first second that we heard a whistle, and this whistle was a missile launches from Gaza to Israel, and there's no red alert. So we freaked out, of course, but I like to say that it's not a routine in Israel. I don't want to say it's a routine, but it's not something that didn't happen, missile launches from Gaza, or missile launches from somewhere, and the party is still on, because we got the Iron Dome. You stop the music for a second, you take over, it's done, and you go back to party. And it's not the first time, but this time wasn't the same.
This time was a barrage of missiles launches from Gaza every second, hundreds of missiles just launches. So the party was over, and someone announced that we need to evacuate. And the party is not coming back. Because people were waiting. And he said, like guys, you have to evacuate. The party's not going on. Leave the perimeter, evacuate, go home.
And I saw the opportunity of going back home, fast as I can, not because we want to run from the missiles, only because we realize it's going to be a traffic jam, right? So we saw, like, so many cars, and we're like, next to our car. And we said, Okay, let's go home like the car is right here. Let's go. And I called my girlfriend and she said, like, Daniel, don't come. The party is done. I was like, That's too late. I'm right here. And I told like, Babe, I'm going to pick you up. So go out.
So I jumped back to the car, and we pick up my girlfriend, and we headed home. And at the same time, we're having a FaceTime with a good friend of mine from Israel. He was still in Tel Aviv. Was supposed to come to the party, but he woke up really late, so. We had a FaceTime, and we talked about what's going on, and we laughed about it, right? Like it was breaking news, a missile start and Nova festival is done. Are you coming back home? We're like, Yeah, we're coming to Tel Aviv. What a bummer. We want to have a great party.
So we started head back home, and that was the moment that we on this route 232, making our way back home, and a police officer stopped us and signaled us to U turn, like we cannot go that way. And he asked us to U turn. And I want you to understand it that all this time, you have unstoppable missiles. The Red Alert is above your head all the time. The missiles is just hitting the ground.
You can see so many cars stopping, people running, people sitting next to their car, smoking a cigarette, drinking something. And that's another thing that people need to know. People just finished an amazing festival in a second, they were drunk, they were high, and scared. We cannot forget it, that not anyone can handle this kind of situation smoothly, and you don't know where to go, right?
Because the police officers, and it's really important for me, I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying they didn't know as well. So they stopped us no matter where we go. They asked us to stop here, to stop there, and we cannot go towards this way or that way. So my oldest brother called me and he asked me, What's going on. He knew that I will be in this kind of festival, and I told her, we gotta stop next to one of the kibbutzim to find a bomb shelter, because we have to hide. You cannot stay in the car once you have red alerts, and we're gonna take over, and I'm calling back when it's become a little bit more quiet, and we'll head back home.
And I didn't have the chance even to hang up, because when I stopped the car and opened the door, that was the moment we were getting shot at with automatic rifles. I want to say that not everyone will recognize it, but the military, the IDF, are not supposed to shoot on automatic. We're not supposed to shoot automatically, only single bullets every time. That's like the rule. That's the law that we got in Israel.
And when you're getting shot at by automatic rifles, it feels different, it sounds different, and you can hear the gunshots just above your head, just whistling next to you everywhere. And I told my brother, I'm getting shot and I will call him back. And I hung up, and I fell to the ground, and I took cover, and I crawled next to the side of the court, and I yelled to the car that we're getting shot at, so they have to go out.
So Ilya was laying next to me, and I remember that we saw so many people stopping their car next to us and screaming and running and praying because nobody, no one understood what's going on. Nobody realized that we're in a war again. Now everybody knows it. Now we can picture that, but at the same moment you don't know. Nothing. You don't have a clue of what's coming up. So it's all blurry, right? You don't really understand what's going on.
And you try to realize where, where you at, or why you're why you're getting shot at. And we took cover, and when I left my head, I didn't see Lala, I didn't see my girlfriend. So I asked Ilya, where, where Lala at and he's and he said that maybe she's in the car.
Now, an important, an important thing that I took my mom's car and she got a child lock, so if someone's inside, you cannot open the door. So I crawl above Ilya, and I open up the door. And Lala was looking at me with his frightened look, and she was like, I can't, I can't open the door. I can't open it. I was like, I'm sorry, baby, I'm sorry. Just come next to us. So she crawled next to us, and we later cover hats for a few minutes, for a while.
And all this time we have the missiles. All this time we're getting shot at all this time you can hear the bullets hitting the trees next to you. Can hear the bullets hitting the rocks, and people are running, people are screaming, and you don't know what to do. And we've been there for a while, and after a while, I felt like I don't want to stay here, like I don't know where I'm going or where I'm supposed to do but I don't want to stay here.
So what we did is we said that we gonna crawl next back to the car. We're going to take our seats back so we won't be like in the horizon of the windows that people cannot see or do, or the gunshots won't hit us through the window, and we're going to drive somewhere. I'm going to press gas and run, I don't know where, so that's exactly what we did.
And Lala was just laying like we're not in the seat, like where you put your dogs at, like, underneath the seat, and Ilya and I were taking the seats all the way back, and I crawled to the seat, to the driver's seat, and just press gas. And in the second I pressed gas, we felt all the car was shaken. And I remember that we really felt the the car moving once I press gas, and Ilya and I looked at his at each other, was like, there was a grenade. We felt it wasn't a missile.
And I remember we were like, shocked looking at each other. So we drove, like, real fast. And again, imagine that all this time I'm lifting my head, I'm picking every time just to see where I'm heading. So we drove like this for, I don't know, a while, and then after, I don't know, 15 minutes of driving we we found ourselves getting stopped by two bicycle couple. So they went for Shabbat just to have a nice ride, and they stopped us, and they lift their hands, like, you have to stop, you have to stop.
And she said, like, you cannot go forward. There's a terror attack ahead, and they're shooting it, anyone that comes, and that's the moment you start to realize that, okay, maybe I start to understand what's what I came from. So we're talking about it like, I think that's what happened there, and they tell us what happened there, and we we try to understand the bigger picture. And I remember that we didn't know where we're supposed to go. But I like to call it: the first angel came, and there was a car that is heading towards us, and a beautiful guy jumped from the car, and he looked at all the cars that stopped, and we're like, 20 or 30 cars.
And it was like, Guys, Kibbutz Sa’ad is just ahead, and I want you all to follow me. They’ll open up the gates and they will and they will let you in. So please follow my lead, park the car outside the gate, and just go inside the gate. And we follow his lead. It's a beautiful kibbutz. It's a religious kibbutz, so it was Shabbat for them, so the gate was supposed to be closed all the time, and everybody was praying in the synagogue, because it was Simchat Torah.
And it was around eight in the morning, more or less. And I want to say between 50 to 60 people from the Nova, kids from the Nova, are running into the kibbutz.
And we don't know what to do. We're just staying at the kibbutz, and there was a soldier that getting treatment next to the gate of the kibbutz because he had a gunshot wound in his stomach. And we see that he's getting a treatment from the city patrol. And even the city patrol that took us in, they didn't know what to do with us. They looked at us with the same look that we're looking at them like we don't know what's going on. Go inside and let's see. Let's figure it out.
And I remember that we just scattered the kibbutz like we just walked and so many kids, so many girls, so many guys around my age are just crying, asking themselves, what's going on. And you start to hear this like people are looking for their friends, like, Hey, where's Rachel? She with you? Where is Avi? Did you see him? So it was a horrific moment at the same time, and you're so useless, and you don't even understand what's going on.
And we made a lot of noise in this kibbutz. And this kibbutz is like a really quiet. I want you to imagine that when you entered the most quietest place in the world, it's like Yom Kippur. It's so beautiful, so nice. It's Shabbat Simchat Torah. All the porches are have decorations for the Sukkot. It's beautiful. It's quiet, but 60 people right now, with a lot of mud and dust from the party, from the festival, and running into your kibbutz.
And the second angel appeared, and her name was Sarah Jackson. She's 88 years old. She's a Holocaust survivor, and she's an amazing, beautiful person, and she came outside of her house because of the noise we made, and she was standing at her porch. She looked at us with this beautiful look, and she's like, Who are you guys? And we said, it doesn't matter. Can we come to your house? Can we stay in your house? Can we can we hide for a second just to drink something?
She was like, of course, come in, and when we came in, she offered us, of course, she gave us water and drinks, and she asked if we want coffee, and she asked us if we're hungry.
And she always have this chill feeling. Always chill vibe, no nervousness. The Shabbat, it's Shabbat, it's quiet, the Shabbat will keep us safe, guys leave the phones. And we started talking with her, of course, and she told us a little bit about herself, and we told her a little about ourselves.
And this time, the information start to come right? We're we're calling our friends that we don't know where they at, or that we lost at the same time, and and we start to gather the information. And I remember I called my my roommate at the same time, like, where, where you at? She was like, two of my friends got shot. Were taking them to the hospital. I was like, What do you mean? What do you mean? Got shot by who she was like, I don't know. They were getting shot at. And I got shot in the car, and two of my friend got shot, one in the knee, one at his shoulder, and I will talk to you later. I was like, okay, just be safe.
And again, this talks that you have at the same time, it's not reasonable. It doesn't make any sense. You don't know that 3000 terrorists just enter your country. You don't know that right now, people are getting slaughtered in their houses, murdered. You don't know it. And you start to get this piece of information from the news, right?
You open up the news, and we call our friends, and this friend is hiding in the bushes, and this friend, he's is running for his life, and this friend is hiding in another kibbutz, and some people managed to escape to Tel Aviv, and like they are heading home, they don't know what we're talking about. And so many, so many like different stories right at the same time. And all this time, we get all this piece of information that berries got invaded and and you can hear the people calling the news like the anchor, the anchorman, and like, gasping for help and whispering at the same time.
And it's Be’eri, it’s Kfar Aza and all this time, we ask, Sarah, and she was like, yeah, it's right here, why? Like, okay, never mind. Because we felt like, Sarah, I don't know if she didn't want to know. So she wasn't into all the details, but she was chilled. She didn't really realize what's going on. And we thought that maybe it's good for her not to know what's going on outside.
And I remember that I was going out all the time, was running, and I have some videos that I was running outside to the gate to see if I can help, to see what's going on, to to ask maybe to patrol, maybe they know what's going on. And every time you're running outside, you're getting red alert. So you have to go back and you do this. And I did it like 5, 4, 6, times, and you can hear the gunshots from Kfar Aza. And now you know that they are inside Kfar Aza slaughtering people.
And there was a rumor started, I don't know how, and that's how rumors start, that people saw terrorists in Kibbutz Sa’ad, so in the Kibbutz that I was hiding, and I remember that we thought that, Okay, that's it. They're inside. What are we gonna do? We don't have a lot of choice. And what we did is that I told Ilya. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna bring some knives to the bomb shelter, because if they're going to open up the door, at least we can fight, at least we're going to take one of them with us. I don't know, something that we can try to do.
And I ran to the kitchen. And again, like I told you, Sarah was a chill, quiet person, so the only knife that she had was a butter knife. So Ilya and I was standing with butter knives for a few hours, holding the door. And it was you know, a funny moment, because I have to tell you, I think when I think when, when you filled and you don't have a lot to do, humor kicks in. So we were standing with this butter knives like this, holding the door with a knife that cannot do anything to anyone.
And I remember that after a while, Sarah looked at us. She was like, What are you doing with my knives? I was like, oh, not a lot, so I don't know. Like, no, take it back. I was like, Okay. And every time she took, we took it back. We brought two others. It was a game like, you know, Cartoon Network we're running, taking it back. She's taking it back.
And after 10 hours that we've been there, something happened. We had the opportunity to go back home, to drive back home, and I took my mom's car back to the kibbutz, and we jumped to the car, and we went to the other side of the gate, and we asked the commander the military that arrived already if we can go back home, because they told us that if you're going to stay here after six o'clock, you will stay all night because they're going to close the perimeter. No, nobody gets in or out.
I don't want to stay in the war zone, so we asked the commander, and he asked us peacefully, like, Okay, if you're going home and I will let you go out, please. Are you going only to Tel Aviv? You don't you're not stopping anywhere. I was like, No, we're not going to stop anywhere, promise. Okay, don't look to the side. Just go straight. Just go home. Now, that's a weird, that's a weird thing to ask from you. But we're like, yeah, okay, we understand. But unfortunately, first of all, you cannot, when someone asks you not to do this, that's exactly what you're going to do, let's be honest.
And second of all, we couldn't even if we wanted because once while I was driving, we saw we had to maneuver in the road that we're going home, between cars that was shattered to pieces. And inside these cars, and outside these cars, there was so many dead bodies of people from the festival. And from our left side, you can always see this black smoke coming up from all the kibbutzim and Gaza.
Because now Gaza is getting hit really hard and really strong from the military and from the Air Force, and it was apocalypse. It was moments of apocalypse. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world, so quiet, so peaceful. And I know it sounds ironic, but it's the truth.
Like, it's such a beautiful place, and to see it now a war zone, to see the smoke, to see these dead bodies all over and cars shattered. It's a polar [opposite]. It's 180 degrees from what you knew or saw.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Have you shared what you just shared? Have you shared this story with college students in America, or do you rarely retell this story?
Daniel Vaknin:
I came to United States for the first time in May. I had an amazing opportunity to play as a DJ in a joyful Jewish event that happened in MIT, but it was for 1500 people, Jewish people, just to celebrate, just to be happy, not to talk. And I was supposed to come to this event to play as a DJ, to perform as a DJ, in front of these people, and headed back home after a while, like after eight days.
But when I went down the stage, when I got off the stage, so many people ran towards me and asked me if I want to come and speak and to share my story in communities, in schools and in synagogue, in temples. I didn't know that at the same time, that's what's going to be, it's going to be something I'm going to do every day now.
But I had almost 12 events, 12 speaking engagements in two weeks here in Boston, in Miami as well. And I had this amazing opportunity to share my story, to talk, to spread awareness. So I came here only for this purpose. I'm going to be here almost two months, speaking, talking to colleges, talking to communities, anyone and any place that will give me the opportunity and want to hear a Nova survivor experience, like a first hand experience.
And to ask the questions and have this amazing dialog, to hear the truth again. I don't like to speak about politics. I like to speak about what I've been through. I like to speak about my beliefs. I want to speak about my community. I want to speak about my friends. I want to speak about the friends that I lost. I want to memorize them. I want to show the word that you can choose light, no matter how much dark you have, and no matter how much dark you saw, or what's going on in Israel now, or what's going on in the world, there's still a choice.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And you have a yellow ribbon dangling from your left ear. Do you know people who are being held hostage?
Daniel Vaknin:
So a month and a half ago, our missing puzzle, our amazing friend Eden Yerushalmi was murdered in captivity after 11 months that she survived. And she was the last person that I knew personally, and we spent some time together, and she's a good friend. Yes, Eden was more closer to my heart and other friends that murdered the same day.
But I can tell you that Eliya Cohen, that everybody's waiting for him to come back. He's a good friend of a lot of my friends, like I know so many people that he's a friend of them. So I cannot say that I'm his friend, but he's one of the family. And each person there, the Bibas, the babies that no one's talk about them anymore, the parents of the kids, nobody talk about them anymore.
I want all of them to come back home, because again, guys, it's not about right or wrong. It's beyond insane. It's beyond insane that we got a kid that almost a year more than his life is in captivity, and nobody's talking about it. It's, it's not insane. I don't, I don't think there's a word for, for expressing it. So this ribbon, I know it represents hostages, and it's nice to put in my ear, but God, that's not enough. That's not enough, and we need to do more than that, to bring them back home and to bring them safe.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I want to note for our listeners. That you are in Boston for some speaking engagements, and we're actually speaking on October 2, a day after all of Israel went into bomb shelters following a barrage of missiles from Iran and a terror attack on a train in Tel Aviv. What have you heard from your family and friends back in Israel?
Daniel Vaknin:
My parents and my brothers are in Israel, and I got younger–my youngest brother is in the army right now. He's 19. He's a combat fighter. He's a commander. And my mom, she got four boys, so she is a lioness. All of us were fighters. All of us been through war. And now the youngest one, and that's the last one. Like she said, no more, no more boys, no more fighters. She wanted peace. And that's the reality right now.
Imagine that yesterday I was waking up to the news that I know that Jaffa, I lived in Tel Aviv for nine years. So Jaffa, Tel Aviv was like so close, and I got a lot of friends that lives in Jaffa, and I'm waking up to this news that terror attacks start and they're killing people, they're murdering, they're slaughtering people in a train station. And I recognize the place immediately, because I've been there a lot, and there's so many heroes. You know what? I won't give the stage to this. I want to change it.
There's so many heroes in Israel. My parents are sitting in a bomb shelter and smiling and doing the best they can to keep the morale high. And someone that I know well, and he's a good friend, he was the guy that yesterday went to buy groceries because he did had food with his flip flops and his pistol, because from the moment the war started, he had a license for a gun, and he only went down to buy some food, and he was the one that injured and killed one of the terrorists with flip flops yesterday. So that's the reality, but that's our heroes. They don't wear capes, they wear flip flops, and they're going to buy food.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Daniel, this state of war seems to have no end, no boundaries. Attacks are coming from all directions. As you travel around the States and the world, speaking and listening, what do you find to be the biggest misconception? What do people outside of Israel seem to not understand?
Daniel Vaknin:
I think if we try to see and we try to fight every single day about religious and who is right and who is wrong, and all this excuses, why we're not supposed to be here. I don't know. Guys, if you don't, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't take a stand.
Come to Israel. Talk to the Nova survivors. Talk to the kibbutzim. Talk to them, there are human beings that will tell you exactly what they saw, what happened, what they lost, what they're losing.
You will see an amazing people and strong people that will tell you the truth. That they don't want it [war], not the kibbutzim, not the Nova survivors. No one wants it. But as long as it takes, we will do it. We'll defend ourselves, and we'll be the strongest people that we can. Because we have the right to live.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Daniel, thank you so much for helping us remember what happened a year ago on October 7. Thank you for sharing what I know was a very painful story and journey, but I think it really will impact our listeners and remind them about the horrors we witnessed a year ago. Thank you.
Daniel Vaknin:
Thank you very much. Manya, it was a pleasure, and thank you for having me.
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Could Israel’s elimination of Hezbollah’s leaders reshape the landscape of power in the Middle East? Matthew Levitt, Director of the Washington Institute's Program on Counterterrorism and Intelligence, answers that pressing question, discusses the impact of Israel's recent offensive against Hezbollah, following the death of its leader, Hassan Nasrallah, and analyzes the ongoing military operations on the Israel-Lebanon border. The conversation also delves into Iran's strategic calculations, the potential consequences for Lebanon’s sovereignty, and the broader regional stability in light of Hezbollah’s diminished military capabilities.
*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus, Season 2 – out now:
Explore the untold stories of Jews from Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, Morocco, and more.
People of the Pod:
At the UN General Assembly: Jason Isaacson Highlights Israel's Challenges and the Fight Against Antisemitism
From Rocket Attacks to Exploding Pagers: Michael Oren on Escalating Tensions Between Israel and Hezbollah
Paris 2024: 2 Proud Jewish Paralympians on How Sports Unites Athletes Amid Antisemitism
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Interview with Matthew Levitt:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Since October 8, Iran's terror proxy Hezbollah has escalated its attacks on Israel, launching rockets, drones, mortar shells toward Israeli civilians on a near daily basis, more than 10,000 to date, pushing 1000s of residents from their homes in Israel's North more than 11 months later, on September 27 Israel Defense Forces launched a massive retaliatory airstrike targeting Hezbollah's headquarters in Lebanon, killing the group's founder and leader, Hassan Nasrallah and other senior officials.
Here to talk about how significant this development might be for Israel and its neighbors, is Dr. Matthew Levitt, director of the Reinhard Program on Counterterrorism and Intelligence at the Washington Institute.
Matt, welcome to People of the Pod. I'm going to launch right into questions.
Has Hezbollah been significantly disabled by Israel's attack, or is Nasrallah’s death just a setback for the terrorist group?
Matthew Levitt:
This is extremely consequential, and it's not just this one attack. So we're talking about two weeks of activities that come straight out of Hollywood. Hollywood would have rejected the script for being too fanciful. First the pagers exploding 24 hours, then walkie talkies exploding. This, already coming on the heels of almost 500 Hezbollah operatives, some of them quite senior, being eliminated. So you already had the beginning of the kind of hierarchy of Hezbollah leadership being taken out, and now what you have is Fuad Shukr.
Ibrahim Akil, members of the jihad Council, the Ohio Military Council for Hezbollah, being taken and then, of course, on Friday, taking out the Hezbollah Operational Command Center, which itself is extremely important. And in that operation, killing both Hassan Nasrallah and another member of the jihad council, Ali Karaki and a senior Quds Force General.
It's so it's not one thing, it's the totality of all these things. And they haven't stopped. Seen over the weekend into Monday, more Israeli air strikes, where they are clearly taking out as much of the Hezbollah medium and long range rocket systems as possible, those are the systems that present the greatest threat to Israel.
And there are even reports coming out today that Israeli special forces units have been sneaking across the border to take out tunnels and other things, all of which is to say, the Hezbollah that existed just a few days ago no longer exists. Hezbollah is there, but it will take a very long time and a whole lot of support for it to reconstitute itself. And when this part of the war is done and it's not done yet, clearly the next phase is going to be preventing Iran from resupplying them. So already, an Iranian plane tried to land in Beirut.
The Israelis told the Lebanese Government, it lands. We shoot it. It didn't land. The Israelis targeted some type of smuggling operation all the way out on this Syrian Iraqi border over the weekend. Clearly the Hezbollah that exists today is nowhere near as capable of fighting a prolonged, full scale war as Hezbollah was, say, 10 days ago.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And what does that mean for Iran in the region?
Matthew Levitt:
Look, Hezbollah was first among equals within Iran's proxy network, what it likes to call its access of resistance. And so it's not just effectively having lost Hamas as a fighting force in Gaza, and it's not even just losing another proxy. It's the pearl in Iran's proxy network. You know, we just published a new version of my book on Hezbollah with a new chapter that focuses on Hezbollah's role helping other Shia militant groups in the region make themselves more capable.
On behalf of this Iranian proxy network, Hezbollah is no longer available to do that, and it really picked up the pace of that activity on behalf of other Shia militia groups in the region after the death of Qasem Soleimani. So this is something more than just another militant group, and Iran for itself, you might think, because Hezbollah is so important, then the Iranians would attack Israel.
The Iranians are being very, very careful. They kind of got the message, right. If you attack Israel, Israel's going to hit back really, really hard. They understand that, unlike in April, where they shot some 300 projectiles at Israel, basically all of which missed, and then Israel had this very, very specific, limited attack back, shooting a small number of projectiles, all of which hit and took out air defense systems near Natanz, the one of the key nuclear facilities.
The Iranians understand that this time around, the Israeli response to be very, very different. And no one can say after the April response, well, maybe they can't go the distance. Maybe they can't get past the air defense systems. And if anybody had any questions, even just over this weekend, the Israelis responded to Houthi attacks from Yemen with a very, very long range attack just about the same distance, or near the same distance they'd have to go to hit some things in eastern Iraq and in Iran.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And speaking of Iran nuclear negotiations, where do those stand now, if there are any still underway, and how does, how does this affect that?
Matthew Levitt:
It's very connected, even though the nuclear negotiations are effectively nowhere. Now there's a new Iranian president who is very focused on trying to roll back. Sanctions. He is, in fact, a moderate when it comes to some domestic policy. He is not a moderate when it comes to, does he support Hezbollah, etc. He's part of the system, and the system is very much one of what they would call resistance. And so while he came to the UN General Assembly last week, and had a much more kind of calm, moderate, sort of pragmatic message about diplomacy as he was saying those words, Iran was doing all kinds of other things in the region to support Hezbollah.
And more significantly for this issue, the nuclear issue, Iran has significantly ratcheted up its nuclear program activity over the past 11 months, authorities are concerned that we're maybe potentially weeks away from breakouts, should Iran make that decision, which it has not yet done, but that's a right on the cusp. And so this really does affect the calculations with Hezbollah, even before the Israeli actions to degrade Hezbollah's military capabilities, but certainly now, as Iran is trying to decide if it should conduct a retaliation of its own, because for Iran there's really only one red line.
It doesn't want whatever regional war it kicks off to cross into Iran, and it wants the powder dry on most of Hezbollah's rockets, because it sees those rockets as the best deterrent against an Israeli or anyone else's attack on Iran's nuclear program, or if someone should attack the nuclear program, the best second strike capability. So it's not that the Iranians have become Zionists, nor have they backed off of their really serious desire to have Hezbollah take the fight to Israel just right now, there's a competing interest in their nuclear program, which is a much bigger strategic consideration, and so they actually want most of the power to drive as much of that powder is left after the Israeli airstrikes to defend against, to deter, against an attack on their nuclear program.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So can I want to widen the lens of regional stability, not just Iran or Lebanon or Israel. I mean, some people have actually said September 27 was just as monumental for the Middle East as the Abraham accords. Is that a bit of a stretch? Or do you agree?
Matthew Levitt:
Look, it's premature to say exactly what September 27 will be, but it's something big, right? It's too early to tell the specific trajectory, but this is a watershed moment without question. I see the potential for very good things to come out of this. I see the potential for Lebanon to finally be able to declare sovereignty over its own country, Hezbollah, which is an unelected entity, the only sectarian militia to hold on to its weapons after the tight accords that ended the Civil War, has effectively been making decisions of life and death, war and peace for all Lebanese, without their say.
So many, many Lebanese, the overwhelming majority of Lebanese, don't want a war, and are going to be angry to Hezbollah for a war of choice that they jumped into on October 8, that may have dragged Lebanon into this war. I see an opportunity for a significant setback, if not broader, dismantling of Iran's proxy network. Hamas in Gaza is not what it once was, period.
It still exists. It can still do things in Gaza and the West Bank. It has leadership in Lebanon and Turkey and Qatar, but it is not what it once was, and the Israelis have demonstrated by killing Ismael Hania in Iran when he was there for the President's inauguration, in an IRGC safe house that they will take the fight where they need to to eliminate arch terrorists behind things like October 7 you saw over the weekend Hezbollah getting hit really, really hard again and again and again. This is not a one off like the assassination of Abbas Moussaoui, the original secretary general of Hezbollah in 1992.
You saw this weekend after the Houthis attacked Israel again and the Israelis went in hard and hit Houthi infrastructure in Yemen, and so the next stage of this has to be doing much more to disrupt Iran's ability to send weapons and to send money to its proxies without those weapons, without that money, the Houthis, frankly, are an annoying prick in the Saudi backside. Without that funding, Hezbollah is nowhere near what it became over the past few decades, and the same goes for the rest of the Iranian proxies.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
How does this affect the conflict in Gaza with Hamas?
Matthew Levitt:
Look, Nasrallah hitched his wagon to Hamas by announcing that he would continue targeting Israel with near daily rocket attacks so long as there was not a ceasefire. That gave Hamas leader yikes in war and Gaza even more leverage. And while it's true that Prime Minister Netanyahu was sometimes playing hardball over control of the Philadelphi corridor, etc.
US officials that I've spoken to have been involved in this process say that the reason there hasn't been a ceasefire deal of the past few weeks is entirely Hamas fault, because Hamas moved the goalposts on which specific Hamas leaders were to be in prison were to be released in the first round, wanting the worst of the worst now, probably thinking there wouldn't be a second round, and there's no way the Israelis were going to be able to do that. One thing that this does is it demonstrates to Hamas just how serious Israel is.
I mean, Hamas is far less dangerous than Hezbollah, and if Israel's willing to do all of this against Hezbollah, Hamas has to understand like this is not ending anytime soon. There's also talk about whether or not the Iranians turn to Hamas at some point and try and find a face saving way for Hamas to say, Okay, well, we'll take a ceasefire, because that would provide Hezbollah face saving way to say, Okay, now we're going to stop the rockets, which maybe would end the Israeli onslaught targeting Hezbollah. I think that that is not a likely scenario, but it is a real scenario.
Iran is not going to sacrifice Hezbollah its crown jewel in its proxy network for Hamas, and so there's lots of ways this goes, but it ultimately doesn't change the fact that Hamas is still holding hostages, that the time is running out for these hostages, as painful as it is to to articulate that And that Israel is still fighting on multiple fronts,
Manya Brachear Pashman:
How should the US respond? Or should the US even participate in this?
Matthew Levitt:
The US should not participate in this, and the Israelis will not ask Israel to the United States to participate in this. They never have. The United States, the administration has come out with very clear messages saying that Israel has a right to defend itself, and understanding that this is in response to 11 and a half months of your daily shelling. This is not an Israeli escalation. It is a long, long delayed Israeli response.
They understand that the Israeli war cabinet, before this all started, before the pages went off, they expanded the war goals not to include the destruction of Hezbollah, not even to include a goal of destroying as many of Hezbollah's missiles as possible. The war goal is very clear, to enable the 60,000 plus Israelis displaced from their homes to be able to go home after 11 and a half months. And to do that, they have to deal with the rocket threat, and they have to deal with the threat of a cross border, October 7-style invasion by Hezbollah, of the type by the way, that Hezbollah is apparently plotting when Israel took out Ibrahim Akhil and a bunch of other Radwan special forces commanders last week.
And so I think the administration understands that. The administration also just concluded a very significant arms deal with Israel that will provide Israel the weaponry it needs to defend itself. And the United States has also sent naval assets in particular to the region as a signal to Iran in particular, don't get involved. And I think that has been a message that the Iranians have also heard.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Just as in the Gaza conflict, there have been calls for an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon because of the level of civilian casualties and the possibility of escalating violence. Matt, what's your take?
Matthew Levitt:
Two things can be true. There is more work to be done, and this is having devastating consequences. As we saw in Gaza we are seeing in Lebanon. The consequence of a militant terrorist group establishing military infrastructure behind and under civilian infrastructure, and hiding behind human shields. And there's only so much warning you can do, and the Israelis have sent warnings–get out of Dakia, they sent warnings on cell phones in Lebanon, you know, if there are rockets near your house, get out.
There's only so much you can do. The Israelis are now, in a matter of days, dismantling more of the Hezbollah military infrastructure and firepower that has been built. Over decades now than they have over many, many, many, many years. And so there'll be calls in Israel to continue to push to not mitigate or even degrade, but to destroy as much of the military threat that Hezbollah has been posing as possible. There will also be calls for taking the win and not going in on the ground, because a ground war could be dangerous for Israeli soldiers. It could get Israelis bogged down, and there'll be a political debate there.
But whether Israel really needs some type of new security zone in the south, plenty of people are kind of saying, we saw that movie. It didn't go so well. Don't go there again. But there is a real feeling in Israel that that they have to do whatever it is they have to do to not reassert deterrence, but to actually degrade the threat and enable people to go back to their lives after you know, it's, it's almost a year from the south and the north.
These are not, these are not easy decisions, and we should not take lightly at all, the consequence for civilians in Gaza, the consequence for civilians in Lebanon, and, of course, consequence for civilians in Israel too. War is horrible, and I blame Hamas and Hezbollah for starting one on October 7th and 8th.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Well, it sounds like you need to write a new chapter for your book.
Matthew Levitt:
Wow. A week after the last new chapter came out, but you're not wrong.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Thank you so much, Matt. Really appreciate you joining us.
Matthew Levitt:
It's really such a pleasure to be here. I really look forward to doing another AJC podcast on a much more uplifting topic sometime in the near future. But until then, let's hope that the region becomes more secure and that the ground is laid for us to have that kind of calmer conversation in the near future.
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Jason Isaacson, AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, joins us to share insights on the key priorities from the sidelines of this year's UN General Assembly. Each year, AJC experts spearhead diplomatic outreach to world leaders on crucial issues, from addressing anti-Israel bias and combating antisemitism to rallying global efforts against the Iranian threat. This year's discussions unfold against the backdrop of Israel's multi-front defensive war against Iran and its terror proxies, as well as a significant rise in antisemitism following Hamas' attacks on October 7.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus, Season 2 – out now:
Explore the untold stories of Jews from Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, Morocco, and more.
People of the Pod:
From Rocket Attacks to Exploding Pagers: Michael Oren on Escalating Tensions Between Israel and Hezbollah
Paris 2024: 2 Proud Jewish Paralympians on How Sports Unites Athletes Amid Antisemitism
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
__
Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
World Leaders convened at the United Nations this week to open the 79th session of the General Assembly every year, AJC experts lead the Jewish community's diplomatic outreach on issues ranging from confronting anti Israel bias and anti semitism to uniting the world against the Iranian threat. This year's meetings come amid a backdrop of Israel's seven-front defensive war against Iran and its terror proxies and the surge of antisemitism since Hamas' October 7 attacks on Israel. Here to discuss the priorities on the sidelines of this year's UN General Assembly is Jason Isaacson, AJC’s Chief Policy and Political Affairs officer. Jason, welcome to People of the Pod.
Jason Isaacson:
Thank you, Manya. It's good to be here.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So I want to turn first to Israel's defense of military operations in Lebanon targeting Hezbollah. For years, AJC has been pushing the UN to designate all of Hezbollah a terrorist organization. How does Hezbollah's near daily attacks on Israel and this military operation change that plea.
Jason Isaacson:
I mean, it changes it only in that it emphasizes, once again, its demonstration of the danger posed by Hezbollah, which, of course, is a threat to the security, the safety of the people of Israel, to peace across the region. But also Hezbollah has arms tentacles that reach elsewhere, reach into Europe for fundraising purposes, for narcotics trafficking, for money laundering posing a real threat to security, not just for the people of Israel, but for people elsewhere in the world.
But what's been happening since October 8, when Hezbollah started firing rockets, missiles, anti tank weapons into northern Israel, killing Israelis, civilians and soldiers, destroying property, inflaming the region, unprovoked, but they did it in response to or as an ally of Hamas, another Iranian backed terror organization has just destabilized the region, made it impossible for 10s of 1000s of Israelis to live in their homes.
They've had to evacuate the north, disrupting the personal lives of so many And now, of course, over the last week or two weeks, we've seen repeated huge barrages of rockets, missiles that have been fired into Israel, killing and destroying property. And it's intolerable. Israel cannot live with that kind of a threat on its border, and no country would tolerate this. Israel will not tolerate it.
And so we're seeing decisive action in various ways that Israel has responded to these multiple threats. In the case of Lebanon, we've seen missile attacks on rocket launchers and command centers and commanders, very precise, targeted. Of course, it is war, and there has been collateral damage, and that is terrible, but Israel has been attacked relentlessly, ruthlessly by Hezbollah. It must respond.
We've also seen very interesting, really quite clever, use of technologies that Israel has mastered in other ways to attack Hezbollah commanders and fighters. We are hopeful that this will send a very clear message to Hezbollah leadership and to their backers in Tehran that they really have to pull this back. There does not have to be a wider war in the region.
It is really Hezbollah's decision, Iran's decision, whether to return to some state of calm where we can have the people of Israel return to their homes, the people of Southern Lebanon return to their homes and get back to, kind of normal life.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do the diplomats you are encountering on the sidelines of the UN understand that? Do they acknowledge what you just said?
Jason Isaacson:
The word on the lips of most diplomats is deescalate, avoid a wider war. And of course, we can all appreciate that no one wants a wider war. But what is a country to do that is being attacked daily by hundreds of rockets and missiles fired into cities and towns?
It cannot just simply say, Oh, well, we're just going to restrain ourselves because, we're more moral than our terrorist neighbors. No country would do that. No country could make that decision. So yes, there is understanding of the situation that Israel is in. There is an appeal for lessening the tensions, for de-escalating. But I think that privately, it is widely understood that Israel has no choice but to defeat the terrorist enemies that are at its throat.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I spoke of the call to designate Hezbollah a terror organization in its entirety. Does Hamas need to be added to that plea for designation? Or do most diplomats already? Or I should say, do most countries already recognize Hamas as a terror organization?
Jason Isaacson:
Unfortunately, most countries do not already recognize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, at least not formally. I mean, they may do it sort of rhetorically, and in a meeting with us, they may say that they of course recognize that. But for reasons that they will cite having to do with their need to continue to interact with the government of Lebanon, which of course has a very strong Hezbollah component in that government, they don't want to box themselves out as some kind of interaction with Beirut.
We could point out, as we do repeatedly, that it's not necessary to exclude contact with Lebanese authorities by designating Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Other countries find ways around that problem. France and others that have cited this argument to us repeatedly could do so as well. But it's important that Hezbollah be designated as a terrorist organization. It's also important that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran also be designated fully as a terrorist organization.
Of course, the United States has done that. A number of other countries have as well, but that must be universal. It is so clear who is lighting the fires across the region, who is threatening the sovereignty, the security of a neighboring state. And for countries to not take those simple steps to try to clamp down on funding, on money transfers, on freedom of movement internationally, for leaders of the IRGC, for leaders of Hezbollah, is just turning a blind eye to terrorism. That's not tolerable.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
What about Hamas? Has that been designated by more countries as a terror organization than Hezbollah or the IRGC?
Jason Isaacson:
Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization, and I think that we need to press the countries that have not yet done so to add Hamas to the terrorist but we also have to not neglect the most important part of this equation, which is, of course, the support that Hamas and that Hezbollah get from Iran. And the fact that the sanctions that have been imposed on Iran are not always widely and carefully and universally enforced.
The fact that Iran has been freed from certain restrictions that the UN imposed after the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action in 2015 in terms of its missile development, a lot of sanctions have to be restored, and the sanctions, particularly on the missile program of Iran, should be restored. And the United States in the next administration, whether it is a Harris administration or a Trump administration, I'm expecting a whole new playbook regarding the approach to Iran.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So the October 7 attacks, which happened shortly after last year's General Assembly, killed more than 1200 people. 101 hostages still remain in captivity.
Has the UN adequately condemned Hamas for the October 7 atrocities, the recent murder of six hostages, and has it called for the unconditional release of the remaining hostages?
Jason Isaacson:
No. Frankly, the UN response has been disappointing to say the least. It has failed repeatedly when efforts have been made to condemn Hamas specifically, even though we know that it is understood across the board around the world, the terrorist nature of the threat that Israel faces, no one doubts, if you have a conversation with a diplomat, that Hamas was responsible for the most horrific atrocities on October 7 and since.
And of course, is holding 101 hostages, some of whom are not alive, but those who are in the most brutal conditions. We saw what happened just a few weeks ago, when Israel was preparing to actually liberate six hostages, including one American, American, Israeli, and they were executed before the Israeli soldiers could get to them by Hamas. Everyone knows the culpability of Hamas, and yet there has been a moral failure on the part of the United Nations to condemn Hamas.
There have been a number of General Assembly and Security Council efforts to raise the issue of the hostages, to raise the issue of Hamas, and they've been deflected. They have not been allowed to move forward. There have been, of course, continual condemnations, as the United Nations has a long history of condemning Israel for its occupation of Palestinian territory, for its treatment of Palestinian civilians. That happens, you know, ritually in the United Nations.
And, of course, every year in the General Assembly, there are, you know, a dozen or 20 or so resolutions against Israel, but to call out the terrorist organization that tells 1200 people and captured 251 others, men, women, children, grandparents, and has been holding 100+ still in captivity in Gaza. That just isn't quite on the UN's agenda. It's very disappointing. That's more than disappointing. It's outrageous.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You did mention that targeting Iran, or just recognizing that Iran is pulling the strings on all of this with its nuclear ambitions, its advanced missile program, these proxy armies and terror organizations the regime does seem to pose a profound danger to Israel as well as the broader world. But do members of the UN seem to recognize this? And what is AJC pushing them to do about it?
Jason Isaacson:
There is wide recognition, certainly in the Gulf, but also increasingly in Europe, of the danger. Posed by Iran, not only on the nuclear file, where Iran is inching closer and closer to being a nuclear threshold state, if not an actual nuclear weapon state, but also the Iranian support for Subversion, for terrorism in countries across the region, Iranian support, Iranian regime support for assassination attempts and kidnapping attempts across Europe.
In the United States as well, former Secretary of State of the United States, a former National Security Advisor of the United States, under protection by the US government because of those Iranian threats, and in Europe as well, this is recognized whether countries are prepared to impose Some economic hardship on their own countries because of imposing sanctions on trade with Iran is another question.
It's sometimes been difficult for countries to make that decision. We have been pushing countries to impose further sanctions on trade with Iran, on the missile program that Iran has been pursuing, on Iran's cooperation, collaboration with Russia in Russia's brutal war of aggression in Ukraine, which is really getting the attention, especially of European leaders.
So we have a lot of arguments that we've been deploying in our meetings over the last week and beyond the last week with the leaders around the world, but especially with European leaders to get much tougher in their dealings with Iran, to stop Iran Air from flying into Europe, which is now an action that is moving forward, but other forms of interaction just to make it impossible for the Iranian regime to continue to carry out its aggression in the region, threatening the security of countries in the Gulf.
But of course, threatening Israel in multiple ways, by supporting terrorists who are acting against the Israeli people on seven fronts, we are hoping, and we are working hard through our advocacy in the United States, at the United Nations around the world, with our 15 offices across the globe, to make that case to foreign governments that it is time to call out and to act firmly against Iranian aggression.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I'm so glad you mentioned Russia, because I did want to ask you whether Ukraine is still a priority, whether it's still a priority for AJC, but also whether it's still a priority for the UN it's been more than two years
Jason Isaacson:
in AJC s meetings on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. This week, we have repeatedly made the case that the territorial integrity of Ukraine, democracy in Ukraine, and frankly, the territorial integrity and democracy and security of Europe as a whole is at stake in the war that Russia is pursuing, that Vladimir Putin has launched against Ukraine, its neighbor.
The importance of the United States and our allies continuing to supply Ukraine with the means to defend itself. We're not talking about American boots on the ground in Ukraine. We're talking about America doing whatever it can, and it has done a lot to help the people of Ukraine defend themselves against Russian aggression, not only for the good of Ukraine, but frankly, for the security, the safety of Europe, and frankly, of global security.
If Russia is allowed to continue gobbling up pieces of Ukrainian territory unimpeded, unchallenged by the West, it will continue its rapacious ways, and that is just not acceptable in Europe. It's not acceptable for the security of the United States, for our interests across the world. So it is important that Russia be pushed back. It is important that we stand by Ukraine as they try to liberate themselves from Russian aggression.
And frankly, it's a signal to other countries that may have territorial ambitions, designs on neighboring states, small, weaker states. You know what we're talking about here. So it's important that the line be drawn, and we stand by that line and continue to supply Ukraine with what it needs to defend itself, and it has actually made some impressive gains. It has still a challenge ahead. Russia is much larger and has many more missiles in its stockpile than Ukraine does, but Ukraine is fighting back, and is actually taking the fight to Russia, which is so important we need to stand by our friends in Ukraine as they beat back Putin's aggression.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So that seems to be a popular sentiment, that it's okay for Ukraine to fight back, and we support that effort. So why do they not support the efforts of Israel to fight back? Is it just geography?
Jason Isaacson:
Well, Israel has always had a difficult challenge in the United Nations. Of course, the situation with the Palestinians has been a popular cause across the globe, and it's been very difficult for Israel to make the case that it does not want to rule over the Palestinian people. It was put in that position as a result of a war in which it defended itself against aggression in 67 and 73 and ended up occupying land or administering land that had been launching pads for strikes against the people of Israel themselves.
It is hoping for, searching for, it has signed on to a process that would allow for a political resolution of the status of the Palestinians. Palestinian leadership has been such that it hasn't been able to move forward on any kind of a further settlement of that dispute with Israel. And in the meantime, the public around the world has grown frustrated and of course, has a continuing support for the underdog, less appreciation for the situation that Israel finds itself in. And that's just a fact of life that we've been we've been wrestling with for too long.
At the same time, there is an appreciation of the contributions that Israel has made and continues to make to technological advancement, public health, a variety of fields in which, certainly the countries in the region, but countries beyond the region, can benefit from further interaction with Israel. We've seen the growth of the relationship between Israel and India, the growth of relationship between India and other states in the developing world, and we're hoping that at a certain point, public opinion will follow the trend that is so evident in our contacts with governments around the world.
In many ways, what we've seen is an action in which Israel is the target, but the real target is the West. The real target is the United States, and Israel is an ally of the United States as the one democracy in the Middle East, closely connected to the United States, has been in many ways, the focal point for antagonism toward the west, and it puts Israel in a unique position.
Sort of a positive position, in some ways, in that there's an affiliation and association of Israel with the United States, which is of benefit to countries in the region that want their own strategic partnership with the United States, that want to benefit from Israel's access to the west, technologically, in education, in public health, and a whole range of sectors. But for other parts of the world, where it's easy to blame the West for their own economic situation or political situation, it's very easy to link the United States with Israel, and therefore to hold Israel somewhat to a different, harsher standard.
That's part of what's going on. Part of it is identification with the Palestinian cause, which has been very popular on the street, fueled in the Arab world by Al Jazeera and other media, but also very conveniently used over the generations by Arab governments to deflect from their own issues of governance in their own countries and elsewhere in the world, it's been a rallying cry for a range of despots and dictators and monarchs who have wanted to again, distract their countries from the real issues that they face, and target this western outpost in the eastern Mediterranean.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Speaking of strategic partnerships, is the UN General Assembly the right forum to pursue discussions of expanding the Abraham Accords, and is this the right time, even if it is the right forum?
Jason Isaacson:
Well, in the General Assembly of the United Nations, no, because there is an automatic majority. And we just saw this on display just a week or so ago when the UN General Assembly adopted a one sided anti Israel resolution overwhelmingly by something like 50% more votes against Israel than occurred the last time a couple of years ago that there was a resolution regarding Israel the General Assembly a similar resolution. So no, not in the General Assembly itself, not in the UN system itself, but among individual countries, Israel is still quite popular at elite levels of many countries, and AJC has worked, I should say, tirelessly for decades, to open doors for Israel.
Countries around the world, not just in the Arab world, but in the developing world and elsewhere. We continue to do so, and we continue to find great receptivity to the argument that there is much to be gained by a relationship with Israel. Maybe starting out quietly, but benefiting the people of your country. Prime minister, Foreign Minister, Mr. President, Madam President, these are arguments that we are making constantly, and we're seeing the openings of trade relations, of new business opportunities, investments, exchanges, people coming to Israel to learn about how they can benefit their own societies by a different kind of a partnership with counterparts in Israel. AJC has been part of that action for a long time.
We continue to do so through our Center for a New Middle East, which was announced by AJC CEO Ted Deutch in June. We are expanding our efforts, especially across the Gulf and North Africa, to introduce societies, civil sector leaders, business people and governments, to the benefits that would accrue to them, to their societies through the embrace of this new Middle East, which has begun frankly with the Abraham Accords in 2020 and we are hopeful that the coming years will bring us greater success as well, but not just in that part of the world.
Other countries, as we have seen through the advent of I2U2 and IMEC, which were efforts to bring India into more interaction with Israel and with Europe, this corridor from India to the. Middle East to Europe and Israel in cooperation with India and the United States and the United Arab Emirates. I2U2, all of these efforts are efforts to expand the circle of Arab Israeli peace, to expand the circle of Israel's interaction with for the benefit of those countries, countries around the world. And we're seeing great success there. We continue to work hard to broaden that success.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Jason, thank you so much for shedding light on what you've been up to this week on the sidelines.
Jason Isaacson:
Always a pleasure, Manya, thank you.
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In this episode of People of the Pod, Ambassador Michael Oren dives into Israel's escalating conflict with Hezbollah, which has turned Israel’s northern border into a war zone and caused 60,000 to remain displaced from their homes. Oren emphasizes Israel’s need to defend itself on multiple fronts, including threats from Hamas, the Houthis, and Iran, warning of the risk of all-out war. He also discusses the formation of the Israel Advocacy Group (IAG) to bolster Israel's media and diplomatic efforts and shares how his vision for Israel’s future, as outlined in 2048: The Rejuvenated State, remains critical post-conflict.
Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus:
Explore the untold stories of Jews from Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, and more.
People of the Pod:
Paris 2024: 2 Proud Jewish Paralympians on How Sports Unites Athletes Amid Antisemitism
The DNC with AJC: What You Need to Know about the Democratic Party’s Israel Platform
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Interview with Michael Oren:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Michael Oren served as Israel's ambassador to the United States between 2009 and 2013. As ambassador, he was instrumental in securing US support for Israel's defense and upholding Israel's right to security. His current role isn't all that much different.
After October 7, he launched the Israel Advocacy Group (IAG), which has worked to strengthen diplomatic relations for the Jewish state and support Israelis during wartime. Ambassador Oren is with us now to explain the challenge Israelis are now facing. Ambassador Oren, welcome to People of the Pod.
Michael Oren:
Good to be with you, Manya.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Ambassador, you are touring the US with residents of Northern Israel who've been displaced by near daily attacks from Hezbollah terrorists across the border with Lebanon. As we speak, Israel is conducting a military operation in Beirut. Can you tell us what is happening and why?
Michael Oren:
Okay, let me begin by saying that Israel has not taken credit from the pager and walkie talkie attacks Has not. And so we want to avoid that type of symmetry, because on one hand, Hezbollah is very proud of the fact that they're firing hundreds of rockets and hundreds of explosive drones at civilians in Israel. Literally. Israel's not taking that credit. Okay.
So let's begin with this. October 8, a day after the horrendous Hamas assault on southern Israel. Hezbollah, out of a vowed desire to show solidarity with Hamas, opened fire on Northern Israel. To date, about 10,000 rockets, explosive domes, have been fired at Galilee. It began along the immediate border, some 18 communities along the immediate border, but it creeped downward. Creeped downward now where rockets are falling along the Sea of Galilee, which is in southern Galilee, and moving its way toward Haifa, nd the suburbs of Haifa, moving westward.
100,000 Israelis have been rendered homeless. 10s of 1000s of acres of farmland, forest land have been incinerated. 1000s of houses have been destroyed, and dozens of people have been wounded and killed, as well. Civilians, as well as military. The entire North has been transformed into a war zone. Cities that you know, like Kiryat Shmona, Metula, are ghost towns today.
One of the members of our delegation, Her home was rocketed in Metula yesterday. Is the 215th home destroyed by Hezbollah in that once beautiful, beautiful town of Metula. So that's the objective situation. Is it an utterly, utterly unprovoked attack on the land and the people of Israel. And Israel, of course, has to defend itself.
The great complaint among the people of the north, it is that the state has not done enough to defend the people of the north. And so any actions now taken, including last night, where Israeli warplanes were attacking Hezbollah emplacements and targets, not just in southern Lebanon, but throughout Lebanon, is very much welcomed by the people of the north. So they have yet to see how the state intends to return them and store them to their homes.
I'll just add one more point that is widely misunderstood in this country. There's a notion that somehow, if a ceasefire is attained with Hamas in Gaza, which is highly, highly unlikely, but if it is attained, then Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, said, he too will accept a ceasefire, but a ceasefire will restore the status quo of October 6. And Israelis simply won't go back to their homes if the situation that obtained on October 6 where Hezbollah was exactly on the opposite side of the fence, no one's going back to communities that are opposite side of the fence, because now we know what terrorists can do to Israelis on the other side of that fence, our side of the fence.
So there is really no alternative but to drive Hezbollah back. It's to drive them back beyond the Litani River, which meanders opposite our northern border, between 13 and 20 kilometers. There's a diplomatic initiative by American Special Envoy Amos Hochstein to try to convince Hezbollah to retroactively implement Resolution 1701, of the Security Council. It's from 200. They called on his Hezbollah to withdraw north of the Litani River. Hezbollah never accepted it. Hezbollah violates it daily, flagrantly. I wish Mr. Hochstein all the best of luck. I don't know what leverage he can bring to bear to convince Hezbollah to implement 1701 but barring that, Israel will have absolutely no choice to push Hezbollah back physically from that fence.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In fact, returning residents home, to their homes in northern Israel has become a war goal. The cabinet has just announced this week, right?
Michael Oren:
Well, it's about time. It's about 11 months too late.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So I guess, what does that mean? Does that mean that this conflict with Hezbollah or Lebanon could escalate?
Michael Oren:
Oh, I would expect it would escalate. Yes, and that we have to prepare it for any scenario, including an all out war. Now, an all out war is no small thing. It's a war that's many times more severe than that, with Hamas in the South. First of all, Hezbollah is one of the largest military forces anywhere, not just in the Middle East. It's got upwards of 170,000 rockets hidden under villages, under hundreds of villages. It has a fighting force of terrorists that's three, four times that of Hamas. It has cyber capabilities. And it's not just Hezbollah. It's the Shiite militias that are backed by Iran and in Iraq and Syria, the Huthi rebels in Yemen. We know that they can fire Israel well. And there's Iran itself. Iran, which, on April 14, launched 315 rockets at Israel.
So the IDF estimate for rocket fire per day in any war with Hezbollah could reach as much as 10,000 rockets a day. And that will overwhelm our multi-tiered anti-missile system. We will require assistance from the United States, and even then, it will be quite a challenge.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
As you mentioned, this is all happening simultaneously with the war against Hamas in Gaza. Yes, Houthis also are firing rockets, one of which, I think at least one reached, or almost reached, central Israel just this past week. And I mean, how many fronts is Israel fighting on right now? And could this escalate? Could, though, that number of fronts grow even more?
Michael Oren:
Well, right now we're at about seven fronts, according to the defense Minister's calculation. So what is it? It the North. It is the south. It is the Huthis, very much to the south, but are capable of firing into Tel Aviv. It is the Judean Samaria, the West Bank front, which is very severe indeed.
So that's just sort of the bottom line of the fronts we're firing. We're also fighting a front against Iran, more distantly, against the Shiite and militias in Iraq and Syria. So a multi, multiple front war. And make no mistake about it, this is an existential struggle for the State of Israel.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And you said that returning to October 6 or what the status was on October 6 is now not acceptable. I mean, was there a short window of time where that was, what the wish and the hope was? And that has shifted.?
Michael Oren:
I think it was lost on October 7. So if you were to go to Metula on October 6, you could stick your hand through the fence, and I wouldn't recommend you do this. You could stick your hand through the fence, and you would touch Hezbollah. They're right there. And the people of Matula and other communities along that border simply won't go back under those circumstances. And you can understand why.
I don't know if you have young children, I don't think you put your children in a house that's looking at Hezbollah across from a fence. Now we know what terrorists can do to Israeli families, civilians, women, babies, who are on the other side of the fence. And a fence is no guarantee against any assault.
The people from the north also believe that there are still tunnels under that fence that we haven't discovered all of the Hezbollah tunnels. There are people in our delegation from the north who believe that Hezbollah still has tunnels that have not been detected under that fence, because Hamas digs tunnels in sand, Hezbollah digs tunnels in rock, and they're deeper and harder to detect.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You said that you wondered, if I have small children, I do. I have two small children. We go to well, they're not. They're getting less small by the day. But it made me think of a column that you wrote back in March for The Forward about how Jews are cursed to be a lonely people.
And I actually gave a speech to our synagogue congregation just last week, talking about how I was so grateful to be part of a congregation on October 6, celebrating Simchat Torah when I woke up on October 7, because otherwise I would have felt and my children would have felt so alone. And I am curious where you were on October 7, and how you have combated that loneliness, that lonely feeling.
Michael Oren:
Hm. Well, I had an unusual experience. On October 5, I was giving a speech in Dallas, Texas, and the speech was interesting, because at the end of my remarks, I told the audience that I believe that Israel would soon be going to war. And everyone gasped, and I'd actually been briefing foreign diplomatic personnel about this for about two weeks.
And the reason I thought Israel was going to war was because of the divisions within Israeli society, the divisions within American societies, that Iranians were following very, very closely. But the most important point was that the United States was trying to broker a peace agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and as part of that deal, Saudi Arabia was going to get nuclear power.
And my line was that if anybody thought that the Iranians would sit quietly while the Saudis got nuclear power, they were kidding themselves, and the Iranians would start a war. All right, I had other information, but that was the major thrust. So two days later, I was coming back to Israel. I was stopping off at my mother's house in New Jersey, woke up to the messages you never want to receive on your cell phone, which is, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? And learned about this.
Now for many years through the generosity of the Singer Foundation. Whenever there's a national emergency, I'm immediately put on television. So starting on the morning of October 7, I was on CNN, MSNBC throughout the day, called some friends in ElAl and got myself on the first flight out of Newark that night, and landed in a war zone the next morning and went immediately to work.
So around a small kitchen table in my house, a group of volunteers together formed an emergency NGO called the Israel Advocacy Group, because what can I say, the state wasn't doing a particularly excellent job in defending itself in the media and other forums. And what began as a small sort of a ma and pa operation around the kitchen table has now become the Israel advocacy group, IAG, dealing with international media, mainstream, non mainstream, and with track two diplomacy.
So track two diplomacy is what we're doing in Washington now by bringing the delegations to the hill. We've had meetings on the hill with both parties, both houses, and today we're in the White House. So we've gone to the White House twice with these delegations. That's tracked two diplomacy and so it's a big undertaking.
So my way of dealing with the loneliness is certainly joining with other people, especially young people, who are committed to defending Israel in every possible form. I'm very blessed because I'm a member of a community in Jaffa, a kehilla, which is just wonderful and, of course, the family, the family, the family. Tammy, my, my beloved and children and grandchildren, 6.5 and counting.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You are heading up this Israel advocacy group that's post October 7. But before October 7, you had started a think tank. I don't know if you would call it an advocacy group. I've been calling it a think tank. Called Israel 2048. You also wrote a book titled 2048: The Rejuvenated State.
It was published in one single volume in English, Hebrew and Arabic, very, very symbolically. And I'm curious if this vision that you laid out for the next century of the Jewish state, is it stalled by all of this?
Michael Oren:
So first of all, 2048 it was a project that grew out of my time in Knesset, and I was the deputy in the prime minister's office, and sort of realizing that Israel is so bogged down in its daily crises, little do we know what a daily crisis was, that we never really think about our future. And the goal was to envision the Jewish state on its 100th birthday. Our 100th birthday would be 2048, and how can we assure a second successful century? What changes had to be made in the State of Israel? And they're pretty big, far reaching changes.
And it began as a discussion group online. We had a 2048 seminar at the Hartman Institute with Natan Sharansky for about a year, then covid hit and retreated to the room and wrote this book. It's an 80 page manifesto that covers 22 aspects of Israeli society. Its educational policy, social policy, health policy, foreign policy, America-Israel diaspora relations, of course, the US relations and the peace process.
Certainly the largest section on the peace process and our relationship with Israeli Arabs, the Haredi issue, the ultra orthodox issue, the Bedouin issue. It's all in 80 quick pages. And the idea of the book was to sort of to spur conversation, especially among young people within Israel and in the United States elsewhere in the diaspora. In the way Zionist thinkers used to think about the future Jewish state, starting in the 1880s up to the 1940s. Huge literature on what this Jewish state was going to look like. And we seem to have lost the ability to have that sort of broad discussion about our future. And it was going very, very well, the discussion.
It was not a think tank. It was actually an anti think tank. I didn't want to produce any papers. I just wanted to have discussions. When the war broke out. Looking back at this book now, it is actually a better seller now than it was before the war, because many of the problems that were revealed by the war were anticipated by the book. And it's actually more crucial now than ever before.
You know, Manya, I’m often asked, What wars does this war most resemble? Is it the 67 war where we were surrounded by enemies, the 73 war, when we were surprised by our enemies? But truly, the war that most resembles this one is the War of Independence, where we are fighting on multiple fronts, in our neighborhoods, in our communities, and everybody's in the army. And the tremendous, tremendous cost.
So really, we're in a second Israel war of independence. And that's the bad news. The good news is we get to rebuild afterward the way we rebuilt post 1948. I don't know any other manifesto that sets out the goals that we have to strive if we're going to have a successful Second War of Independence. Certainly, we have to address the Haredi issue. That's not sustainable.
We have to address the Bedouin issue, you know, the IDF secured the release of one of the hostages several weeks ago, a Bedouin gentleman. It was an extraordinary event, definitely praiseworthy, but that Bedouin had two wives, and had settled illegally on state land, and that sort of it was indicative of the type of problems we face with a Bedouin that no one's addressing.
But it's also our education system. How can we proceed and a road to some type of better relationship with the Palestinians? How can we maintain unity within Israel, within the Jewish world? Everything from the Kotel to teaching math on a high school level in a Haredi school.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
How dismaying that there are so many wars to choose from for comparison. But I, but I appreciate the one that you the analogy that you've made and the hope that that carries with it. So, Ambassador Oren, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.
Michael Oren:
Thank you. Let me say Shana Tova.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Shana Tova.
Michael Oren:
I also want to give a special thank you to the American Jewish Committee. Yesterday morning, we through the office under the aegis of the the AJC, our delegation of displaced northerners met with about 20 representatives of the diplomatic community here in Washington, including the German ambassador, the Czech ambassador, the Slovakian ambassador, diplomats from Spain, Italy, and for the first time, this diplomatic community was able to hear firsthand what it is to live under daily Hezbollah rocket and drone fire, to be displaced from their homes, and it was extremely important. We're very, very grateful to AJC.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Ambassador Oren, thank you so much for joining us.
Michael Oren:
Thank you.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with two proud Jewish Paralympians on how sports can unite athletes amid antisemitism, which surfaced during the Paris 2024 Olympic Games.
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Following Hamas’ October 7 massacre of Israelis, antisemitism has infiltrated nearly every part of society – including the world of sports. At the 2024 Paris Olympic Games, Israeli athletes faced death threats and “Heil Hitler” salutes.
U.S. Paralympian Tahl Leibovitz, an Israeli-American, knows this hatred firsthand, having been targeted both on and off the court simply for being Jewish. Together with fellow Paralympian Ian Seidenfeld, the Para Table Tennis champions reflect on how they’ve seen sports serve as a powerful unifying force, despite the challenges.
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Listen – AJC Podcasts:
The Forgotten Exodus:
Season 2 out now exploring the untold stories of Jews from Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, and more.
People of the Pod:
The DNC with AJC: What You Need to Know about the Democratic Party’s Israel Platform
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Transcript of Interview with Ian Seidenfeld and Tahl Leibovitz:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
It is always a joy to watch the Olympic Games with my children. I must confess, not until I had children, did I watch the Paralympics. If you want to see strength, grit, and resilience on a heroic level, behold British cyclist Sarah Story claim her 18th gold. My son’s favorite sports are wheelchair tennis and table tennis.
So he was particularly excited when I told him that I had the opportunity to sit down with two proud Jewish athletes who competed in this year’s Paralympic games in Paris. Twenty-three year old Ian Seidenfeld and 49-year-old Tahl Leibovitz are members of the USA 2024 Para Table Tennis team. They are here to talk about their approach to the sport and what it means to be a Jewish athlete.
Ian, Tahl: welcome to People of the Pod.
Ian Seidenfeld:
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Tahl Leibovitz:
It is really good to be here. I'm very excited about this.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So what drew you to this sport, to table tennis? Ian, how about you start us off?
Ian Seidenfeld:
Yeah, I don't know if I was ever interested in table tennis, but my dad was the table tennis coach, runs the table tennis in Minnesota with the Minnesota Table Tennis Federation, so it was always kind of just a part of life in that when I was four or five years old I'd want to go with my dad to work and kind of be around him and play. And it just happened to be table tennis that he was coaching. So I didn't even know what was going on, but it was something that I enjoyed to do to kind of hang out with my dad a little bit.
Tahl Leibovitz:
I was in the South Beach Boys and Girls Club that was kind of in Queens, South Richmond Hill. And I had a lot of different things. I was doing martial arts there, which I really liked a lot. And my trainer was saying, if you do table tennis it can help you with your reflexes. You're gonna be faster. And I started doing table tennis, and I kind of got drawn into it, and I really like the challenge of it. It's very similar to chess – it's like chess and running at the same time. I do a lot of jiu-jitsu now, it's similar to that. You're trying to solve things. So it's very interesting.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Tahl, you were born with a physical disability that makes it difficult to kind of move on your feet and to straighten your arms or flex your wrists. So I'm curious how you've balanced that. How have you overcome that?
Tahl Leibovitz:
Another good question, and most people don't even ask that, and that's probably somebody that had been playing table tennis probably for like, 10 or 20 years would kind of notice I have osteochondromas, so I have limited supination and pronation. You can't really see if I'm walking, can't see any disability, but I have bone tumors all over my body. They're benign, so it restricts movement. So to answer that, I had to find a way to adapt.
So when I hold the racket, I change the grip a lot. And I would say the two things that I never thought I would become this great player. You know, you never really know. But when I was watching the best athletes in the country in the world, I started competing against them eventually. And I started trying to think, ‘Okay, what, you know, what would be difficult? How could I make their match difficult?’ Not trying to beat them, but how can I make these matches very difficult for them?
I started doing that a lot, and then I built the style. And then, of course, you know, really believing that you can compete against anyone. I say those two things, and then I don't know, I started, I don't know what happened after. It took about eight years, and I just started doing really well, both in the able-bodied and the para competition.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Ian, can you talk a little bit about the preparation and training process for the Paralympics and other competitions as well?
Ian Seidenfeld:
Table tennis training, a lot of it happens on the table, as you might imagine. So we're on the table for two to three hour practice sessions. And then what I try and do outside of table tennis is, for me, cardio on the bike. I live near a lake, Lake Bde Maka Ska in Minnesota, and so it's a very beautiful lake to ride around and get that kind of cardio in, two to three days a week, and then playing on the table three to four days a week for myself.
A lot of it is that hand-eye coordination is the biggest part, being able to react to the ball movement much quicker than others, I think is a defining factor, along with being able to understand spin. That's maybe the biggest difference in table tennis compared to other racquet sports, is the amount of spin we can get on the ball.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do you have a signature move or kind of signature maneuver that you use to best your opponents?
Ian Seidenfeld:
I think my best thing is variation. Because of my disability of dwarfism, I have shorter limbs, so I can't reach or move as far as others. So I try and control the table with angle of play as well as spin and speed variation. So it's a very, we'll call it a thinker's game, trying to outsmart the opponent some ways and keep things very uncomfortable for them. That's kind of what I try and do to my opponents.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
That’s great, keep them guessing as to what's coming their way. I love that. Well what have been some of your challenges? In other words, are there particular strategies or moves that other players use that you have really tried to get better at confronting?
Ian Seidenfeld:
Yeah, there's a lot of different things. As I said, with my disability, with dwarfism, a short stature and shorter limbs, I have had people use a short serve against me, so that I can't reach the serve to start off the point. And we've kind of fought over the last five or six years for me to be able to use a paddle extension, which will basically allow me to reach the first serve and then take the extension off and play like a normal point afterwards. So that's, for me, kind of a big difference. The other big difference for my disability would be I can't play as long because my joints are very malformed, so I have higher levels of inflammation sooner. So I kind of practice less than most people.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So it seems like that would be something that they would regulate or accommodate. I'm kind of surprised that they would even allow a short serve in that kind of circumstance.
Ian Seidenfeld:
From how my dad described the Paralympics to me when he was playing in 1988 in Barcelona, he had won a gold medal there. At the time, it was probably more about building community and acceptance among disabilities. Just because we have a disability, we're not necessarily accepting of other disabilities.
And so in those instances, you can see, back then it was, you were kind of learning to be around other people and accept their differences. I think now we've gotten to the point where a lot of it is about this higher level of competition, and so that competitive aspect has changed things a lot more. So maybe the short serves and things, tactics that might be considered underhanded are a little bit more accepted than I'd like it to be. But who am I to argue? I'm happy to just to be able to play.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
You mentioned your father, Ian. He was a champion in the 1980s. He is now the coach of the U.S.A. Paralympic team. What other mentors or support systems have both of you had along the way?
Ian Seidenfeld:
Yeah, I think family is the biggest crutch for all of us. I know for my teammate, Jensen, he's the same age as me, and so he has a very good support system with his parents and his brother. And myself, with my parents and my sister, I think we were able to confide in them very honestly and speak candidly about everything that we're feeling.
I recently had been talking to an energy coach as well, someone to kind of give better levels of positive energy, being able to stay more present in the moment and not get ahead of myself, and I tend to guide towards the negative aspects of things, getting upset or getting annoyed or frustrated. And so I'm trying my best to get out of that.
And so I have been talking to someone to kind of help with staying positive in tougher times. So it's really about being able to be honest with yourself and with other people, and not afraid to reach out. Because, as an athlete that's competing in Paris, a lot of people want to help and do their best for you, and so you just have to be able to communicate in a mature way.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And what about you Tahl – what does your support system look like?
Tahl Leibovitz:
Yeah, you know, that's probably one of the most important things, is when you connect to people that are, you know, trying to help you along the way. Of course, my coach Sean O’Neill has been a very good mentor. He's a two-time Olympian, five-time national champion. He's helped me greatly, helped me study for, you know, when I was doing my social work exams. We also have a lot of great coaches. Mitch Seidenfeld is our head coach. We have Vlad Farcas. He's amazing. He's, you know, a really good friend and somebody that runs the program as well.
But I would say, yeah, those three individuals, and there's another person, Dr. Dov Copler, who's practicing medicine. He's helped me a lot as well. Of course, my wife, I've been married for more than 20 years, she's unbelievable, and we're, you know, best friends, and she's helped me, you know, without her, I probably couldn't make these achievements not be possible.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
I'm curious, has your Jewish identity played a role in your athletic success, your academics or your professional careers?
Ian Seidenfeld:
Yeah, my Jewish identity. So I'm a reform Jew, but I think it's a lot about the community and family that I have that's really important to me, and I've been able to look up to them and what they've done in their careers and their lives, and how they kind of view life in a lot of ways, to just enjoy it, enjoy family. And so I think I've taken a lot of that as being very important to me, being able to try and pursue both career and being consistent with my family.
Tahl Leibovitz:
I was born in Israel. You know, I was born in Haifa. Obviously, I'm very connected to Israel. And I went to a thing called the Maccabi Games that was in 1997, that was my first games. And the people, the experience, it was just so amazing. And that's the first time I had been back to Israel. I'm trying to think, I was 22 years old, I think at that time. So I would say, yeah, Israel, I feel so good there. There's a very good connection to being there. So that's the positive note and, you know, and also coming up, you know, on a negative thing. You know, being Jewish, of course, it's not easy in some ways, you know, I went through, in a lot of obstacles and different things because of that.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So can you talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that you have encountered along that being Jewish have presented?
Tahl Leibovitz:
When I grew up – well, I lived in the street when I was a boy, you know, for maybe 13 to about 21 but it's interesting before that, even when I was, I grew up in Howard Beach, and then eventually I was living in kind of, like, by Cypress Hills in New York City. And there's, like, a shame that being Jewish, like I was, you know, is like, in some way, from my peers, like I wasn't around a lot of Jewish people, and they were, you know, they make fun of you.
They like, you feel this, and I didn't know anything really. I was only a kid, but I think having my grandfather was, like, a really good, I mean, he made a, you know, spending time with him was a big difference. He was a Holocaust survivor. One thing I learned from him, which I think is so important, I think more people should do. When you look at the Jewish community, it's like the family. There's a very strong sense of family. And I feel, even when I'm in Israel, because I'm very good friends with a lot of people on the table tennis team, the Israeli Center, I feel such a good connection, like I feel really a part of something, and that is really important.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So in other words, being part of that sports community and a team, there's something kind of Jewish about that and that family feel. You spoke about the negative. Of course, Israeli athletes competing in Paris, some have received death threats and hate messages online, and then at the soccer match between Israel and Paraguay, spectators were yelling Heil Hitler during the Israeli national anthem. As a Jewish athlete, as an Israeli-born Jewish athlete, is this hate something that you have encountered along the way, or is this hate just reserved for the athletes representing Israel?
Tahl Leibovitz:
You know, I'll say two things to that. The first being that, you know, obviously, what happened, you know, in October of last year. You feel something. You could say whatever you want. There's no words. I feel like I've overcome a lot of adversity, but to feel that, like, that you can't do anything. You feel so badly, you know. So there's a connection, I think, you know from all of us that is the first thing. So, and you look at what's happening in the schools, Columbia University, and a lot of these things, so there is a heightened sense of antisemitism, for sure.
And I would say that does happen. I'll give you one quick example, which is very, very interesting. I had to play a league match. This wasn't even too long ago, just two months ago, so to play a league match. And there were, you know, I'm not saying these people are bad or good, but they were from Egypt. There were two players, and then they, they came in and they said, ‘Do you know where we were?’
And I was like, ‘Okay, where were you guys at?’ And they said, ‘Well, we're in the mosque, and we were praying for the destruction of Israel. We were praying that Israel would be destroyed.’ I'm about to start a match with these guys, and, you know, obviously I'm a therapist, so, you know, I have a lot, you know, patients, and I ended up winning against them. So they were not too happy. But the point is that I tend to think about, like when people bring that, they have great difficulties within themselves.
And of course, you can match that, you know, with it, with anything you know. You can be aggressive with them. But I find if people sit long enough in some of these, I don't know if you want to call it delusions that they have, because a lot of people, we're just human beings. People hate Jewish people for no reason, like, it's like, they don't even know me. It's like, you're hating somebody for something, you don't even know them. So I think when people sit with that, they tend to, you know, they spend a little more time with you. Sports can do that too. It kind of humanized people together.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
That's interesting. You have actually called your birthplace your favorite place on earth. And I'm curious, how do you honor both your American and Israeli identities while representing the United States in competition?
Tahl Leibovitz:
Yeah, that's a very good question. And I would say for me, the thing, because I've been to a lot of different tournaments, the Paralympics, a lot of different things, the most incredible experience for me has been like I mentioned the Maccabi Games. So that's one thing, and I stay connected, you know, and it's also not just what I'm doing. Look, I'm a table tennis player, I do the best I can. But, you know, there's some people that I've, you know, there's a student I work with. Her name is Estee Ackerman. She does a lot of public speaking. She was a great player.
We, you know, I trained her for many years. So you, kind of, I would say the answer is this sort of community, you know, and to and to be connected to yourself, and also to be even in therapy, you know, actually, I'll say one other thing. I could say a lot. I work for a few, I have contracted a few different places. And I said to one place, you know, after this thing happened in Israel, I said, and again, I have no special ability.
I just said, look, send me the people that were affected by Israel. I said, those are the people I want to work with now. I said, send me as many as you can, as much as you can. And then I started working with them. And it is, the truth is, it's profoundly effective. Like there were, you know, these people that can't function at work. You know, it's something, some of them were very connected, they're affected in some way, obviously. So I just give what I can. I can't change the world, but I know, like, I can give the best I can to people, and even if I do my small part, it's okay.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So after this year's Paralympics, what’s next?
Ian Seidenfeld:
I think the goal is really to just try and feel comfortable and try and have fun out there, and the results will come. But after the Paralympics, I work for a company called Allianz, a global insurance company, and so I plan to continue working for them afterwards, and they've been, they're a sponsor of the Olympics and Paralympics, so they've been very supportive of my training, and so I plan to continue working for them and continue training for the next World Championships and Maccabi Games, and we actually have our own Allianz Olympics coming up in 2026, so there's a lot more table tennis to be played, and ultimately I hope to compete in LA 2028 so I might take a month or two off, but other than that, it'll be back to training as usual.
Tahl Leibovitz:
Well I set a goal that I wanted to try to continue to 2028 since I won my first gold medal in 1996. That was my biggest achievement. And so now I'm saying, all right, we have 2028 in LA, so I will continue to 2028. I'm in pretty good, playing pretty well, doing a lot of fitness. So I feel okay. And yeah, probably do that, and then I will see. Most likely I will retire, I think, although people keep pushing me to do another two, but that would be 2036 would be my last one. So it's a little, I’m 50 years old, almost, so, but we'll see. I think 2028, then I'll reevaluate.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Well thank you both so much for joining us. Is there anything I have not asked you that you definitely want to share with our audience before we go?
Ian Seidenfeld:
I think when we're talking about acceptance and love and trying to overcome our differences and challenges, I think the Paralympics can be a very good representation of what we can all do together, as the Olympics was founded as well to find common ground among nations, and I think there is a lot of hate and rhetoric that's spoken throughout the US and throughout the world, that hopefully people will be able to watch the Olympics and Paralympics and feel a more, a greater sense of unity among people. And hopefully we won't have death threats and that kind of hate, that's really unnecessary. I hope.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Well said. Thank you so much. Ian, Tahl, Mazal Tov!
Ian Seidenfeld:
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Tahl Leibovitz:
Thank you. Thank you so much.
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Listen to the premiere episode of the second season of The Forgotten Exodus, the multi-award-winning, chart-topping, and first-ever narrative podcast series to focus exclusively on Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. This week’s episode focuses on Jews from Tunisia. If you like what you hear, subscribe before the next episode drops on September 3.
“In the Israeli DNA and the Jewish DNA, we have to fight to be who we are. In every generation, empires and big forces tried to erase us . . . I know what it is to be rejected for several parts of my identity... I'm fighting for my ancestors, but I'm also fighting for our future generation.”
Hen Mazzig, a writer, digital creator, and founder of the Tel Aviv Institute, shares his powerful journey as a proud Israeli, LGBTQ+, and Mizrahi Jew, in the premiere episode of the second season of the award-winning podcast, The Forgotten Exodus.
Hen delves into his family's deep roots in Tunisia, their harrowing experiences during the Nazi occupation, and their eventual escape to Israel. Discover the rich history of Tunisia's ancient Amazigh Jewish community, the impact of French colonial and Arab nationalist movements on Jews in North Africa, and the cultural identity that Hen passionately preserves today. Joining the conversation is historian Lucette Valensi, an expert on Tunisian Jewish culture, who provides scholarly insights into the longstanding presence of Jews in Tunisia, from antiquity to their exodus in the mid-20th century.
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Show notes:
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Song credits:
"Penceresi Yola Karsi" -- by Turku, Nomads of the Silk Road
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“Desert Caravans”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI), Composer: Tiemur Zarobov (BMI), IPI#1098108837
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“Frontiers”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI); Composer: Pete Checkley (BMI), IPI#380407375
“Hatikvah (National Anthem Of Israel)”; Composer: Eli Sibony; ID#122561081
“Tunisian Pot Dance (Short)”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI); Composer: kesokid, ID #97451515
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“Adventures in the East”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI) Composer: Petar Milinkovic (BMI), IPI#00738313833.
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Episode Transcript:
HEN MAZZIG: They took whatever they had left and they got on a boat. And my grandmother told me this story before she passed away on how they were on this boat coming to Israel.
And they were so happy, and they were crying because they felt that finally after generations upon generations of oppression they are going to come to a place where they are going to be protected, and that she was coming home.
MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: The world has overlooked an important episode in modern history: the 800,000 Jews who left or were driven from their homes in the Middle East and North Africa in the mid-20th century.
Welcome to the second season of The Forgotten Exodus, brought to you by American Jewish Committee. This series explores that pivotal moment in history and the little-known Jewish heritage of Iran and Arab nations.
As Jews around the world confront violent antisemitism and Israelis face daily attacks by terrorists on multiple fronts, our second season explores how Jews have lived throughout the region for generations–despite hardship, hostility, and hatred–then sought safety and new possibilities in their ancestral homeland.
I'm your host, Manya Brachear Pashman. Join us as we explore untold family histories and personal stories of courage, perseverance, and resilience from this transformative and tumultuous period of history for the Jewish people and the Middle East.
The world has ignored these voices. We will not. This is The Forgotten Exodus.
Today's episode: leaving Tunisia.
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[Tel Aviv Pride video]
MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Every June, Hen Mazzig, who splits his time between London and Tel Aviv, heads to Israel to show his Pride. His Israeli pride. His LGBTQ+ pride. And his Mizrahi Jewish pride. For that one week, all of those identities coalesce.
And while other cities around the world have transformed Pride into a June version of the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, Israel is home to one of the few vibrant LGBTQ communities in the Middle East. Tel Aviv keeps it real.
HEN: For me, Pride in Israel, in Tel Aviv, it still has this element of fighting for something. And that it’s important for all of us to show up and to come out to the Pride Parade because if we’re not going to be there, there’s some people with agendas to erase us and we can't let them do it.
MANYA: This year, the Tel Aviv Pride rally was a more somber affair as participants demanded freedom for the more than 100 hostages still held in Gaza since October 7th.
On that day, Hamas terrorists bent on erasing Jews from the Middle East went on a murderous rampage, killing more than 1,200, kidnapping 250 others, and unleashing what has become a 7-front war on Israel.
HEN: In the Israeli DNA and the Jewish DNA we have to fight to be who we are. In every generation, empires and big forces tried to erase us, and we had to fight. And the LGBTQ+ community also knows very well how hard it is.
I know what it is to be rejected for several parts of my identity. And I don't want anyone to go through that. I don't want my children to go through that. I'm fighting for my ancestors, but I'm also fighting for our future generation.
MANYA: Hen Mazzig is an international speaker, writer, and digital influencer. In 2022, he founded the Tel Aviv Institute, a social media laboratory that tackles antisemitism online. He’s also a second-generation Israeli, whose maternal grandparents fled Iraq, while his father’s parents fled Tunisia – roots that echo in the family name: Mazzig.
HEN: The last name Mazzig never made sense, because in Israel a lot of the last names have meaning in Hebrew.
So I remember one of my teachers in school was saying that Mazzig sounds like mozeg, which means pouring in Hebrew. Maybe your ancestors were running a bar or something? Clearly, this teacher did not have knowledge of the Amazigh people.
Which, later on I learned, several of those tribes, those Amazigh tribes, were Jewish or practiced Judaism, and that there was 5,000 Jews that came from Tunisia that were holding both identities of being Jewish and Amazigh.
And today, they have last names like Mazzig, and Amzaleg, Mizzoug. There's several of those last names in Israel today. And they are the descendants of those Jewish communities that have lived in the Atlas Mountains.
MANYA: The Atlas Mountains. A 1,500-mile chain of magnificent peaks and treacherous terrain that stretch across Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia, separating the Sahara from the Mediterranean and Atlantic coastline.
It’s where the nomadic Amazigh have called home for thousands of years. The Amazigh trace their origins to at least 2,000 BCE in western North Africa. They speak the language of Tamazight and rely on cattle and agriculture as their main sources of income.
But textiles too. In fact, you’ve probably heard of the Amazigh or own a rug woven by them. A Berber rug.
HEN: Amazigh, which are also called Berbers. But they're rejecting this term because of the association with barbarians, which was the title that European colonialists when they came to North Africa gave them.
There's beautiful folklore about Jewish leaders within the Amazigh people. One story that I really connected to was the story of Queen Dihya that was also known as El-Kahina, which in Arabic means the Kohen, the priest, and she was known as this leader of the Amazigh tribes, and she was Jewish.
Her derrogaters were calling her a Jewish witch, because they said that she had the power to foresee the future. And her roots were apparently connected to Queen Sheba and her arrival from Israel back to Africa. And she was the descendant of Queen Sheba. And that's how she led the Amazigh people.
And the stories that I read about her, I just felt so connected. How she had this long, black, curly hair that went all the way down to her knees, and she was fierce, and she was very committed to her identity, and she was fighting against the Islamic expansion to North Africa.
And when she failed, after years of holding them off, she realized that she can't do it anymore and she's going to lose. And she was not willing to give up her Jewish identity and convert to Islam and instead she jumped into a well and died.
This well is known today in Tunisia. It’s the [Bir] Al-Kahina or Dihya’s Well that is still in existence. Her descendants, her kids, were Jewish members of the Amazigh people.
Of course, I would like to believe that I am the descendant of royalty.
MANYA: Scholars debate whether the Amazigh converted to Judaism or descended from Queen Dihya and stayed.
Lucette Valensi is a French scholar of Tunisian history who served as a director of studies at the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences in Paris, one of the most prestigious institutions of graduate education in France. She has written extensively about Tunisian Jewish culture.
Generations of her family lived in Tunisia. She says archaeological evidence proves Jews were living in that land since Antiquity.
LUCETTE VALENSI: I myself am a Chemla, born Chemla. And this is an Arabic name, which means a kind of belt. And my mother's name was Tartour, which is a turban [laugh].
So the names were Arabic. So my ancestors spoke Arabic. I don't know if any of them spoke Berber before, or Latin. I have no idea. But there were Jews in antiquity and of course, through Saint Augustin.
MANYA: So when did Jews arrive in Tunisia?
LUCETTE: [laugh] That’s a strange question because they were there since Antiquity. We have evidence of their presence in mosaics of synagogues, from the times of Byzantium.
I think we think in terms of a short chronology, and they would tend to associate the Jews to colonization, which does not make sense, they were there much before French colonization. They were there for millennia.
MANYA: Valensi says Jews lived in Tunisia dating to the time of Carthage, an ancient city-state in what is now Tunisia, that reached its peak in the fourth century BCE. Later, under Roman and then Byzantine rule, Carthage continued to play a vital role as a center of commerce and trade during antiquity.
Besides the role of tax collectors, Jews were forbidden to serve in almost all public offices. Between the 5th and 8th centuries CE, conditions fluctuated between relief and forced conversions while under Christian rule.
After the Islamic conquest of Tunisia in the seventh and early eighth centuries CE, the treatment of Jews largely depended on which Muslim ruler was in charge at the time.
Some Jews converted to Islam while others lived as dhimmis, or second-class citizens, protected by the state in exchange for a special tax known as the jizya.
In 1146, the first caliph of the Almohad dynasty, declared that the Prophet Muhammad had granted Jews religious freedom for only 500 years, by which time if the messiah had not come, they had to convert.
Those who did not convert and even those who did were forced to wear yellow turbans or other special garb called shikra, to distinguish them from Muslims.
An influx of Jews expelled from Spain and Portugal arrived in the 14th Century. In the 16th Century, Tunisia became part of the Ottoman Empire, and the situation of Jews improved significantly. Another group who had settled in the coastal Tuscan city of Livorno crossed the Mediterranean in the 17th and 18th centuries to make Tunisia their home.
LUCETTE: There were other groups that came, Jews from Italy, Jews from Spain, of course, Spain and Portugal, different periods. 14th century already from Spain and then from Spain and Portugal. From Italy, from Livorno, that's later, but the Jews from Livorno themselves came from Spain.
So I myself am named Valensi. From Valencia. It was the family name of my first husband. So from Valencia in Spain they went to Livorno, and from Livorno–Leghorn in English–to Tunisia.
MANYA: At its peak, Tunisia’s Jewish population exceeded 100,000 – a combination of Sephardi and Mizrahi.
HEN: When we speak about Jews from the Middle East and North Africa, specifically in the West, or mainly in the West, we're referring to them as Sephardi.
But in Tunisia, it's very interesting to see that there was the Grana community which are Livorno Jews that moved to Tunisia in the 1800s, and they brought the Sephardi way of praying.
And that’s why I always use the term Mizrahi to describe myself, because I feel like it encapsulates more of my identity. And for me, the Sephardi title that we often use on those communities doesn't feel accurate to me, and it also has the connection to Ladino, which my grandparents never spoke.
They spoke Tamazight, Judeo-Tamazight, which was the language of those tribes in North Africa. And my family from my mother's side, from Iraq, they were speaking Judeo-Iraqi-Arabic.
So for me, the term Sephardi just doesn't cut it. I go with Mizrahi to describe myself.
MANYA: The terms Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi all refer to the places Jews once called home.
Ashkenazi Jews hail from Central and Eastern Europe, particularly Germany, Poland, and Russia. They traditionally speak Yiddish, and their customs and practices reflect the influences of Central and Eastern European cultures.
Pogroms in Eastern Europe and the Holocaust led many Ashkenazi Jews to flee their longtime homes to countries like the United States and their ancestral homeland, Israel.
Mizrahi, which means “Eastern” in Hebrew, refers to the diaspora of descendants of Jewish communities from Middle Eastern countries such as: Iraq, Iran, and Yemen, and North African countries such as: Tunisia, Libya, and Morocco. Ancient Jewish communities that have lived in the region for millennia long before the advent of Islam and Christianity. They often speak dialects of Arabic.
Sephardi Jews originate from Spain and Portugal, speaking Ladino and incorporating Spanish and Portuguese cultural influences. Following their expulsion from the Iberian Peninsula in 1492, they settled in regions like North Africa and the Balkans. In Tunisia, the Mizrahi and Sephardi communities lived side by side, but separately.
HEN: As time passed, those communities became closer together, still quite separated, but they became closer and closer. And perhaps the reason they were becoming closer was because of the hardship that they faced as Jews.
For the leaders of Muslim armies that came to Tunisia, it didn't matter if you were a Sephardi Jew, or if you were an Amazigh Jew. You were a Jew for them.
MANYA: Algeria’s invasion of Tunisia in the 18th century had a disproportionate effect on Tunisia’s Jewish community. The Algerian army killed thousands of the citizens of Tunis, many of whom were Jewish. Algerians raped Jewish women, looted Jewish homes.
LUCETTE: There were moments of trouble when you had an invasion of the Algerian army to impose a prince. The Jews were molested in Tunis.
MANYA: After a military invasion, a French protectorate was established in 1881 and lasted until Tunisia gained independence in 1956. The Jews of Tunisia felt much safer under the French protectorate.
They put a lot of stock in the French revolutionary promise of Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Soon, the French language replaced Judeo-Arabic.
LUCETTE: Well, under colonization, the Jews were in a better position. First, the school system. They went to modern schools, especially the Alliance [Israélite Universelle] schools, and with that started a form of Westernization.
You had also schools in Italian, created by Italian Jews, and some Tunisian Jews went to these schools and already in the 19th century, there was a form of acculturation and Westernization.
Access to newspapers, creation of newspapers. In the 1880s Jews had already their own newspapers in Hebrew characters, but Arabic language.
And my grandfather was one of the early journalists and they started having their own press and published books, folklore, sort of short stories.
MANYA: In May 1940, Nazi Germany invaded France and quickly overran the French Third Republic, forcing the French to sign an armistice agreement in June. The armistice significantly reduced the territory governed by France and created a new government known as the Vichy regime, after the central French city where it was based.
The Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis, establishing a special administration to introduce anti-Jewish legislation and enforce a compulsory Jewish census in all of its territories including Tunisia.
Hen grew up learning about the Holocaust, the Nazis’ attempt to erase the Jewish people. As part of his schooling, he learned the names of concentration and death camps and he heard the stories from his friends’ grandparents.
But because he was not Ashkenazi, because his grandparents didn’t suffer through the same catastrophe that befell Europe, Hen never felt fully accepted.
It was a trauma that belonged to his Ashkenazi friends of German and Polish descent, not to him. Or so they thought and so he thought, until he was a teenager and asked his grandmother Kamisa to finally share their family’s journey from Tunisia. That’s when he learned that the Mazzig family had not been exempt from Hitler’s hatred.
In November 1942, Tunisia became the only North African country to come under Nazi Germany’s occupation and the Nazis wasted no time.
Jewish property was confiscated, and heavy fines were levied on large Jewish communities. With the presence of the Einsatzkommando, a subgroup of the Einsatzgruppen, or mobile killing units, the Nazis were prepared to implement the systematic murder of the Jews of Tunisia. The tide of the war turned just in time to prevent that.
LUCETTE: At the time the Germans came, they did not control the Mediterranean, and so they could not export us to the camps. We were saved by that. Lanor camps for men in dangerous places where there were bombs by the Allies. But not for us, it was, I mean, they took our radios. They took the silverware or they took money, this kind of oppression, but they did not murder us.
They took the men away, a few families were directly impacted and died in the camps. A few men. So we were afraid. We were occupied. But compared to what Jews in Europe were subjected to, we didn't suffer.
MANYA: Almost 5,000 Jews, most of them from Tunis and from certain northern communities, were taken captive and incarcerated in 32 labor camps scattered throughout Tunisia. Jews were not only required to wear yellow stars, but those in the camps were also required to wear them on their backs so they could be identified from a distance and shot in the event they tried to escape.
HEN: My grandmother never told me until before she died, when she was more open about the stories of oppression, on how she was serving food for the French Nazi officers that were occupying Tunisia, or how my grandfather was in a labor camp, and he was supposed to be sent to a death camp in Europe as well. They never felt like they should share these stories.
MANYA: The capture of Tunisia by the Allied forces in May 1943 led the Axis forces in North Africa to surrender. But the country remained under French colonial rule and the antisemitic legislation of the Vichy regime continued until 1944. Many of the Vichy camps, including forced labor camps in the Sahara, continued to operate.
Even after the decline and fall of the Vichy regime and the pursuit of independence from French rule began, conditions for the Mazzig family and many others in the Tunisian Jewish community did not improve.
But the source of much of the hostility and strife was actually a beacon of hope for Tunisia’s Jews. On May 14, 1948, the world had witnessed the creation of the state of Israel, sparking outrage throughout the Arab world. Seven Arab nations declared war on Israel the day after it declared independence.
Amid the rise of Tunisian nationalism and its push for independence from France, Jewish communities who had lived in Tunisia for centuries became targets. Guilty by association. No longer welcome. Rabbinical councils were dismantled. Jewish sports associations banned. Jews practiced their religion in hiding. Hen’s grandfather recounted violence in the Jewish quarter of Tunis.
HEN: When World War Two was over, the Jewish community in Tunisia was hoping that now that Tunisia would have emancipation, and it would become a country, that their neighbors and the country itself would protect them.
Because when it was Nazis, they knew that it was a foreign power that came from France and oppressed them. They knew that there was some hatred in the past, from their Muslim neighbors towards them.
But they also were hoping that, if anything, they would go back to the same status of a dhimmi, of being a protected minority. Even if they were not going to be fully accepted and celebrated in this society, at least they would be protected, for paying tax. And this really did not happen.
MANYA: By the early 1950s, life for the Mazzig family became untenable. By then, American Jewish organizations based in Tunis started working to take Jews to Israel right away.
HEN: [My family decided to leave.] They took whatever they had left. And they got on a boat. And my grandmother told me this story before she passed away on how they were on this boat coming to Israel.
And they were so happy, and they were crying because they felt that finally after generations upon generations of oppression of living as a minority that knows that anytime the ruler might turn on them and take everything they have and pull the ground underneath their feet, they are going to come to a place where they are going to be protected. And maybe they will face hate, but no one will hate them because they're Jewish.
And I often dream about my grandmother being a young girl on this boat and how she must have felt to know that the nightmare and the hell that she went through is behind her and that she was coming home.
MANYA: The boat they sailed to Israel took days. When Hen’s uncle, just a young child at the time, got sick, the captain threatened to throw him overboard. Hen’s grandmother hid the child inside her clothes until they docked in Israel. When they arrived, they were sprayed with DDT to kill any lice or disease, then placed in ma’abarot, which in Hebrew means transit camps. In this case, it was a tent with one bed.
HEN: They were really mistreated back then. And it's not criticism. I mean, yes, it is also criticism, but it's not without understanding the context. That it was a young country that just started, and those Jewish communities, Jewish refugees came from Tunisia, they didn't speak Hebrew. They didn't look like the other Jewish communities there. And while they all had this in common, that they were all Jews, they had a very different experience.
MANYA: No, the family’s arrival in the Holy Land was nothing like what they had imagined. But even still, it was a dream fulfilled and there was hope, which they had lost in Tunisia.
HEN: I think that it was somewhere in between having both this deep connection to Israel and going there because they wanted to, and also knowing that there’s no future in Tunisia. And the truth is that even–and I'm sure people that are listening to us, that are strong Zionists and love Israel, if you tell them ‘OK, so move tomorrow,’ no matter how much you love Israel, it's a very difficult decision to make.
Unless it's not really a decision. And I think for them, it wasn't really a decision. And they went through so much, they knew, OK, we have to leave and I think for the first time having a country, having Israel was the hope that they had for centuries to go back home, finally realized.
MANYA: Valensi’s family did stay a while longer. When Tunisia declared independence in 1956, her father, a ceramicist, designed tiles for the residence of President Habib Bourguiba. Those good relations did not last.
Valensi studied history in France, married an engineer, and returned to Tunisia. But after being there for five years, it became clear that Jews were not treated equally and they returned to France in 1965.
LUCETTE: I did not plan to emigrate. And then it became more and more obvious that some people were more equal than others [laugh]. And so there was this nationalist mood where responsibilities were given to Muslims rather than Jews and I felt more and more segregated.
And so, my husband was an engineer from a good engineering school. Again, I mean, he worked for another engineer, who was a Muslim. We knew he would never reach the same position. His father was a lawyer. And in the tribunal, he had to use Arabic. And so all these things accumulated, and we were displaced.
MANYA: Valensi said Jewish emigration from Tunisia accelerated at two more mileposts. Even after Tunisia declared independence, France maintained a presence and a naval base in the port city of Bizerte, a strategic port on the Mediterranean for the French who were fighting with Algeria.
In 1961, Tunisian forces blockaded the naval base and warned France to stay out of its airspace. What became known as the Bizerte Crisis lasted for three days.
LUCETTE: There were critical times, like what we call “La Crise de Bizerte.” Bizerte is a port to the west of Tunis that used to be a military port and when independence was negotiated with France, the French kept this port, where they could keep an army, and Bourguiba decided that he wanted this port back. And there was a war, a conflict, between Tunisia and France in ‘61.
And that crisis was one moment when Jews thought: if there is no French presence to protect us, then anything could happen. You had the movement of emigration.
Of course, much later, ‘67, the unrest in the Middle East, and what happened there provoked a kind of panic, and there were movements against the Jews in Tunis – violence and destruction of shops, etc. So they emigrated again. Now you have only a few hundred Jews left.
MANYA: Valensi’s first husband died at an early age. Her second husband, Abraham Udovitch, is the former chair of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. Together, they researched and published a book about the Jewish communities in the Tunisian island of Djerba. The couple now splits their time between Paris and Princeton. But Valensi returns to Tunisia every year. It’s still home.
LUCETTE: When I go, strange thing, I feel at home. I mean, I feel I belong. My Arabic comes back. The words that I thought I had forgotten come back.
They welcome you. I mean, if you go, you say you come from America, they're going to ask you questions. Are you Jewish? Did you go to Israel? I mean, these kind of very brutal questions, right away. They’re going there. The taxi driver won't hesitate to ask you: Are you Jewish? But at the same time, they’re very welcoming. So, I have no trouble.
MANYA: Hen, on the other hand, has never been to the land of his ancestors. He holds on to his grandparents’ trauma. And fear.
HEN: Tunisia just still feels a bit unsafe to me. Just as recent as a couple of months ago, there was a terror attack. So it's something that’s still occurring.
MANYA: Just last year, a member of the Tunisian National Guard opened fire on worshippers outside El Ghriba Synagogue where a large gathering of Jewish pilgrims were celebrating the festival of Lag BaOmer. The synagogue is located on the Tunisian island of Djerba where Valensi and her husband did research for their book.
Earlier this year, a mob attacked an abandoned synagogue in the southern city of Sfax, setting fire to the building’s courtyard. Numbering over 100,000 Jews on the eve of Israel’s Independence in 1948, the Tunisian Jewish community is now estimated to be less than 1,000.
There has been limited contact over the years between Tunisia and Israel. Some Israeli tourists, mostly of Tunisian origin, annually visit the El Ghriba synagogue in Djerba. But the government has largely been hostile to the Jewish state.
In the wake of the October 7 attack, the Tunisian parliament began debate on a law that would criminalize any normalization of ties with Israel. Still, Hen would like to go just once to see where his grandparents lived. Walked. Cooked. Prayed.
But to him it’s just geography, an arbitrary place on a map. The memories, the music, the recipes, the traditions. It’s no longer in Tunisia. It’s elsewhere now – in the only country that preserved it.
HEN: The Jewish Tunisian culture, the only place that it's been maintained is in Israel. That's why it's still alive. Like in Tunisia, it's not really celebrated. It's not something that they keep as much as they keep here.
Like if you want to go to a proper Mimouna, you would probably need to go to Israel, not to North Africa, although that's where it started. And the same with the Middle Eastern Jewish cuisine. The only place in the world, where be it Tunisian Jews and Iraqi Jews, or Yemenite Jews, still develop their recipes, is in Israel.
Israel is home, and this is where we still celebrate our culture and our cuisine and our identity is still something that I can engage with here.
I always feel like I am living the dreams of my grandparents, and I know that my grandmother is looking from above and I know how proud she is that we have a country, that we have a place to be safe at.
And that everything I do today is to protect my people, to protect the Jewish people, and making sure that next time when a country, when an empire, when a power would turn on Jews we’ll have a place to go to and be safe.
MANYA: Tunisian Jews are just one of the many Jewish communities who, in the last century, left Arab countries to forge new lives for themselves and future generations.
Join us next week as we share another untold story of The Forgotten Exodus.
Many thanks to Hen for sharing his story. You can read more in his memoir The Wrong Kind of Jew: A Mizrahi Manifesto.
Too many times during my reporting, I encountered children and grandchildren who didn’t have the answers to my questions because they’d never asked. That’s why one of the goals of this project is to encourage you to ask those questions. Find your stories.
Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer.
Special thanks to Jon Schweitzer, Nicole Mazur, Sean Savage, and Madeleine Stern, and so many of our colleagues, too many to name really, for making this series possible.
You can subscribe to The Forgotten Exodus on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/theforgottenexodus.
The views and opinions of our guests don’t necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.
You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us.
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This week, on the sidelines of the Democratic National Convention, AJC hosted a program on Israel and the path to peace. Ambassador Thomas R. Nides, former U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Halie Soifer, CEO of the Jewish Democratic Council of America, and Illinois Congressman Brad Schneider (D-IL) joined us for the conversation. AJC’s chief policy officer, Jason Isaacson, who is also the head of AJC's recently launched Center for a New Middle East, was moderating the program. AJC hosted a similar program on the sidelines of the Republican National Convention last month in Milwaukee.
*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. AJC is a nonpartisan, 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. AJC does not endorse or oppose political parties or candidates.
Episode Lineup:
(0:40) Jason Isaacson, Halie Soifer, Brad Schneider, Tom Nides
Show Notes:
Watch:
Israel and the Path to Peace - AJC at the Democratic National Convention
Listen – People of the Pod:Is Centrism the Antidote to Political Polarization and Extremism? A Conversation with Yair Zivan
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.
Transcript of Panel with Jason Isaacson, Halie Soifer, Brad Schneider, Tom Nides:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
This week, on the sidelines of the Democratic National Convention, AJC hosted a program on Israel and the path to peace. Joining us for the conversation was Ambassador Tom Nides, former US ambassador to Israel, Halie Soifer, CEO of the Jewish Democratic Council of America, and Illinois Congressman Brad Schneider.
Moderating the program was AJC’s chief policy officer Jason Isaacson, who is also the head of AJC's recently launched Center for a New Middle East.
Just a reminder, AJC is a 501(c)3 nonpartisan organization, and AJC neither supports nor opposes candidates for elective office.
Jason Isaacson:
I really wanted to begin by citing some passages from the Democratic platform and some passages from the Republican platform relating to the Middle East. I'll just mention very briefly that the Republican platform's Middle East language is short and to the point. It says, We will stand with Israel and seek peace in the Middle East. We will rebuild our alliance network in the region to ensure a future of stability, peace, stability and prosperity.
And it also promises, very quickly, to restore peace in Europe and the Middle East. The Democratic platform is much more extensive. It's an 80 page document, a long section on the Middle East.
But it says that the administration opposes settlement expansion and West Bank West Bank annexation. Also opposes the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions Movement against Israel. But it's very clear that the administration believes a strong, secure and democratic Israel is vital to the interests of the United States.
It's also quite specific about the necessity of defeating Hamas. I want to start my questioning with Halie Soifer. The question that's been on the minds of political reporters and many of us in the community, Haley, as you very well know, over the last 10 months of the war in Gaza, and has taken on new meaning in light of the change at the top of the Democratic ticket.
How can a Democratic candidate for president in the current highly charged environment maintain the support of the party's pro Israel mainstream while also keeping or winning back the loyalty of the increasingly active pro Palestinian segment of its constituency. What have we heard from Vice President Harris, for whom you worked in the Senate, that suggests that she can balance these competing policy claims?
Halie Soifer:
Well, thank you, Jason, thanks to everyone. I was told to project. And for those of you who are at the Global Forum, you know I know how to project, so I will try my best. But thanks for having me.
I did have the honor of working for then-Senator Harris, starting her first month in the Senate for two years as her national security advisor. And what I can tell you is, not only does she share the views of President Biden, we know that based on the past three and a half years, and their records standing with Israel in the lead up to and of course, in the aftermath of the horrific attacks of October 7.
Giving an unprecedented amount of military assistance to Israel, standing with Israel, not only in the aftermath of these attacks, but demanding the release of all of the hostages, and continuing to stand with Israel as it faces this threat from Iran, pre positioning military assets in the region, not once, but twice in the lead up to The attacks of April 13. But also, I can tell you from personal experience, her views on Israel didn't start from day one in the White House. I saw it from day one when she was in the Senate. She came to this role with over a decade of experience working on these issues. I traveled to Israel with her in November of 2017.
This is an issue that she feels deeply in terms of the importance of the US Israel relationship, Israel security, its right to self defense, and she is a staunch supporter of Israel. Have no doubt. I'm glad you started with the Democratic platform as well, because this also elaborates on what is the strongly pro Israel views of our party.
And make no mistake, it's not a coincidence that we have three pages detailing our support of Israel in our platform. It's pages 82-85 for those who would like to look it up. And it is no mistake that the Republican platform is empty platitudes. Two, two bullet points that barely say anything. Because this is an issue of which our party is deeply committed.
And it extends beyond Israel. It includes Israel's security in the Middle East and our platform, which has never been stronger. I testified before the platform committee. I was very happy to say this very strong pro Israel platform of 2020 not only should it not be diluted, it should be strengthened.
Because, of course, we have seen the horror of October 7, we should reflect the fact that we stand with Israel in this moment. We call for the release of the hostages, and of course, we unequivocally condemn Hamas.
All of that is reflected in this platform and more, including recognition of the horrific sexual violence that was perpetrated on that day, which the vice president herself has given voice to. So in terms of questioning how she can navigate this issue, she already has and she continues to stand with Israel.
I have no doubt that when she's elected in 78 days, with the strong support of the Jewish community, that she will continue to do so as President.
Jason Isaacson:
Thank you, Haile. Brad, I'm going to turn to you. The Republican Party platform had no specific references to Iran, but the Democratic platform went on at length about the need both to halt the regime's progress toward nuclear weapons capability and to confront Iran's and its proxies, destabilizing activities across the region. The Democrats document also pointed to instances of the Trump administration's failure to respond to certain Iranian provocations. Unfortunately, the Democratic platform didn't mention the fact that Trump administration was responsible for taking out IRGC Quds Force Chief, General Soleimani.
Now talk about how you imagine a Harris administration confronting the Iranian threats differently from the Biden administration. We have seen over the last three years, Iran has continued to develop its nuclear weapons capability, although it's not yet passed that threshold apparently. Its proxies are on the march across the region. We haven't really been successful in confronting Iran. Do you see a Harris administration taking a different approach?
Brad Schneider
Great question. And before I start, let me just welcome everybody to Chicago, to our great city, and those from Chicago, can you raise your hand? And I'm also going to take the personal indulgence to say it's good to be home with Chicago AJC.
Jason Isaacson:
Thank you, Brad. I should have said that.
Brad Schneider
Look, Iran is the greatest threat to Israel, to the region, but also to the United States. Our interests here in the region, but also here at home, and so we need to stand up to Iran and understand Iran is a threat on many different aspects. It's not just their nuclear program. It is their support of the proxies, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and more. It is their efforts to expand their reach, their influence across the region, and they do so not by building up states, but by tearing them down, creating instability across the region.
Their chant is not just Death to Israel, but Death to America. I have no doubt that the Harris-Walz administration will stay focused and understands the importance of first, ensuring that Iran never, ever gets a nuclear weapon. That has to be our number one priority. Because imagine where we would have been on April 13 if Iran had a nuclear weapon. Or this past couple of weeks, if Iran had a nuclear weapon.
The second thing I think you will see is the continuation of the policy. Reflecting on April 13, Iran launched 350 drones, rockets and missiles at Israel. It was Israel, the United States, and a arrangement or alliance of other nations that defeated that attack. That sent a very clear message that we will stand up to Iran, not leaving Israel to stand alone, or the United States and Israel standing without the support of allies, but allies throughout the region.
And just as important, if you look at who those allies are and what they believe in, they are countries, Arab countries, that are looking to the future. They're looking for a different dynamic in the Middle East. You mentioned that the Trump administration took out Soleimani. The Trump administration also laid the groundwork and helped establish the Abraham Accords. That is, I believe, the framework for the future that provides security and peace, not just to Israel, but to the other nations in the region.
And so what I believe the administration, that the Harris-Walz administration will focus on is isolating Iran, ensuring Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. Thwarting Iran's effort to expand its reach through proxies and failed states, but at the same time building up and working towards a path towards peace, security and prosperity for Israel and the region. I think that reflection of forward thinking, it's not just about Israel. It's about everything.
If you were watching last night, if you were there last night [Monday night], if you've been watching this campaign as it's unfolded. Now it'll be one month tomorrow. As it unfolds, what you're seeing is a view towards a different path that gives promise and hope to a better future that is absolutely dependent on the United States. United States leadership and US leadership on a global stage will empower and help us to ensure that Iran doesn't get that foothold on the global stage and doesn't have the ability to continue with threats to Israel in the region.
Jason Isaacson:
Well, let me stay on Iran for a second with you. Do you see a Harris administration try to return to the JCPOA?
Brad Schneider
No.
Jason Isaacson:
Or has that been totally discredited?
Brad Schneider
One thing you'll see is the Harris administration. I had a long conversation with Ilan Goldberg yesterday, the recognition that we are where we are now, we all would wish we were in a different place. 10 years ago, we were focused on getting to a place to move Iran back from the threshold of a nuclear weapon, and without relitigating the JCPOA, we moved Iran further away, a year away.
Now a year away is not eliminating Iran's capacity or capability to develop a nuclear weapon, but it is buying time. And what we should have done, I will relitigate this. We should have used that time to strengthen our position, our allies’ position to improve our prospects of moving Iran further back.
Instead, what happened was the Trump administration pulled out of the JCPOA and Iran marched forward, and where they are today is far closer to a nuclear weapon than they were 10 years ago. Where they are today are talking about days away from having enough nuclear enriched uranium, highly enriched uranium, to build not one, but multiple nuclear weapons.
And they just announced that they're working on developing the triggering mechanism, the ability to convert that enriched uranium into a nuclear weapon. So the stakes are higher. The risks are higher. Iran is closer. We've got to start where we are today, and I think the new administration coming in will start at that point and look for ways to push back, to create space, and to use that space to buy time, to use that time to get us to a place where we have more security.
But we can only go there if the administration is clear. Congress is clear. It's not a partisan issue. This has to be Democrats and Republicans saying we will never allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon, and all options are available to us to ensure that Iran does not achieve their goal.
Jason Isaacson:
Brad, thank you. Ambassador Nides. We were talking earlier this morning about the Abraham Accords, and of course, Congressman Schneider just talked about that as well.
How do you see a Harris administration, building on the Abraham Accords, success, building on what the Biden administration has tried to do in normalizing relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Will that be a priority for the Harris administration? What would be the obstacles that it will face as it tries to move forward in that direction.
Thomas Nides:
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And let me give a little bit of shout out to Ted Deutch. Who is– Ted, you can't leave. I see you walking back there. Because when they decided to recruit Ted Deutsch to leave the Congress to come do this, that was your biggest, happiest day. So thank you very much for your leadership.
Let me just say there were not many things I agreed about with the Trump administration, to be clear. And when my when I was being confirmed as ambassador, one of the very nice members on the Republican side asked me, Sir, it seems to be that the Biden administration won't even talk about the Abraham Accords, and they don't even call them the Abraham Accords, I remember seeing the Senate because I'm a bit of a smart aleck, and I said, Can I explain to you something? I love the Abraham Accords, okay? I love the Abraham Accords.
The Abraham Accords was, in my view, then and is today, a foundational event. And as much as I believe that the Trump administration has done all sorts of other things, the Abraham Accords, in my view, has strengthened the State of Israel. So I congratulate them for doing it and supporting it as we have. So we should all applaud that.
And as we think about the future. Because listen, what has happened here. Even after October 7, the Bahrainians, the Moroccans and the Emiratis, they didn't abandon Israel. Quite the opposite. They've stuck with, most all of them kept their ambassadors in Israel. Most of them continue to have long involved conversations with the Prime Minister about the strength of Israel.
And in fact, several months ago, when the Iranians were attacking Israel, those same countries were indirectly helping with the United States and with Israel to protect the State of Israel, not directly, but indirectly. A lot of information sharing.
So the foundation for the Abraham Accords should be the foundation for what comes next. And what comes next. Number one, we got to get a hostage deal. For any of you – I'm leaving here to go with the hostage families. I was in Israel a couple weeks and spoke at hostage square. For all of us, for any of us, we should sit and pray to get these hostages out. And for those of you who know some of the families, it breaks my heart. We've got to get a hostage deal. The time is now, okay?
And this President and this Vice President are committed to get these hostages free, so once we can get that deal done, and that means putting pressure on Netanyahu and putting pressure on Hamas. Make no mistake, this idea that this is all about Bibi. Listen, I've got my issues with Bibi on occasions, but it's not only convincing Bibi to do what needs to be done, it also is pressuring Hamas, through the proxies, to get them to do a deal.
Once there is a hostage deal, everything starts coming into place. And what does that mean? Ultimately, would have to have a plan to rebuild Gaza. Because this fight wasn't with the Palestinian people. This fight was with Hamas, and we've got to help rebuild Gaza with a new PA, with a new group of international parties, including the Saudis and Emiratis. That's a $15 or $20 billion operation to build, rebuild Gaza. Yes, we need a new PA leadership, a new what PA leadership looks like in the future. Needs to be talked about and then, and then we need to have a conversation about normalization with Saudi Arabia.
Make no mistake, it is the single most important thing that we can do, including keeping in control of Iran, is getting a normalization with Saudi Arabia. Because it's not just Saudi Arabia, it's the rest of the Muslim world, and it's in our grasp. We can get this done. Now obviously it's a little dreamy. And how do you get the 67 votes? We'll let the geniuses on the Hill, including the congressman, figure that out.
But I do believe there is an opportunity, because Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are completely committed to this. I will say one little note. Two years ago, when Joe Biden came for his 10th visit to Israel, I remember meeting him at the airport, and if you recall, it was the same it was middle of covid. It was the same time and where he decided to go to Saudi Arabia. And you remember Joe Biden during the campaign, said some fairly aggressive things about the Saudis during the Khashoggi thing and MBS.
But he was convinced by a lot of people, mostly his national security adviser and his vice president to go to Saudi Arabia. Why? Because it was good for the security of the State of Israel. He fundamentally believed that the Saudi normalization could be and should be the keys for the security of the State of Israel. So we've got to get these hostages out. We get a plan, and we need moving on a side, normalization as quickly as humanly possible.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Yair Zivan, foreign policy advisor to Israel's opposition leader, Yair Lapid, about his new book of essays “The Center Must Hold.” In that book, authors argue for a return to centrist politics as an antidote to the extremism around the globe today.
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“We live in a complicated world . . . We have to balance those tensions, and the way that we do that is not by running away from them and looking for simplistic answers, but actually by embracing that complexity.”
In his new book of essays, “The Center Must Hold,” Yair Zivan, Foreign Policy Advisor to Israel’s Opposition Leader Yair Lapid, who heads Israel’s largest centrist political party, argues for a return to centrist politics as an antidote to the extremism and polarized politics proliferating around the globe today.
The essays, by authors including Israel's former Prime Minister Yair Lapid, American political commentator Jennifer Rubin, former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and philanthropist Catherine Murdoch, call populism fatally flawed and prescribe centrism as the solution to political ire around the globe.
*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.
Episode Lineup:
(0:40) Yair Zivan
Show Notes:
Listen – People of the Pod:What the Unprecedented Assassinations of Terror Leaders Means for Israel and the Middle East
Aviva Klompas is Fighting the Normalization of Antisemitism on Social Media
On the Ground at the Republican National Convention: What's at Stake for Israel and the Middle East?
Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod
You can reach us at: [email protected]
If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.
Transcript of Interview with Yair Zivan:
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Yair Zivan has served as an advisor to Israel's Foreign Minister, Prime Minister and President. Most recently, he has edited a series of essays that argue for a return to centrist politics as an antidote to the extremism and polarized politics we see proliferating around the globe today. The title of that book: “The Center Must Hold”.
The essays by authors including Israel's former Prime Minister Yair Lapid, American political commentator Jennifer Rubin, former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and philanthropist Catherine Murdoch, call out populism as fatally flawed and prescribe centrism as the solution to political ire around the globe. Yair, welcome to People of the Pod.
Yair Zivan:
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So let's start with the title of this essay collection, which is a spin, your spin on the line from the Yates poem The Second Coming. And that poem was written more than a century ago, also during a time of worldwide angst after World War One and the flu pandemic and the poem's opening line is, things fall apart, the center cannot hold. Why do you argue the center must hold?
Yair Zivan:
So I think that the play on words there is about a kind of a fatalism that says it can't and saying, Well, we don't really have that luxury if we believe, as I do, that the center is the answer to the polarization and the populism and the extremism that's tearing us apart, then it simply has to hold.
Now that's not to say that it will automatically or by default. It means we have to go out and fight for it, and that's what I've been trying to do with the book and with the events around it, is to make the case that the center can hold if we go out and make that happen.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So what is centrism anyway?
Yair Zivan:
It's a good place to start. I'll start with what centrism isn't. Centrism is not the middle. It's not a search for some point on a map between where the left and the right happen to be at any given time. That just leaves you getting dragged around from place to place by whatever the political winds are. It's not useful as a political idea. It's also not successful as a political idea.
Centrism says, here are a set of core values that we believe should be at the center of politics. They should be the things that are at the heart of our democratic political tradition, our political instinct. And you can trace it back to the early '90s, to Clinton and to Blair and the third way movement. You can trace it back much further, Oliver Wendell Holmes is often cited as a good example of a centrist political philosophy.
But at its core, what centrism says is we live in a complicated world, and we have to manage that complexity. We have to balance those tensions, and the way that we do that is not by running away from them and looking for simplistic answers, but actually by embracing that complexity. And by saying when we find the best balance between these competing tensions, and that's not to say split the difference and find the middle.
There are times when we go more one way and more another, it's to say that is the way that we can best hold within us the complexities of running a country today. And there are some very core values at the heart of that liberal patriotism, this idea that it's good to love your country. It's good to be a patriot without being a nationalist, without hating others, without having to degrade other people in order to affirm your sense of love for your own country.
We talk about equality of opportunity, the idea that the role of government is to give everybody the best possible chance to succeed. It's not to guarantee an equality of outcome at the end, but it's to say we're going to make sure that children have a good education system and that their health care system gives them a chance to succeed, and they have a hot meal every day, and then people that want to work hard and take those opportunities and be innovative will be able to succeed in society.
It talks about the politics of hope, as opposed to the politics of fear and division, so creating a national story that people can rally around, rather than one that divides us inevitably into camps and separates us, which is what I think populists and extremists try to do.
So there's a whole host of them, and I would say one of the core ones, and maybe why it's so important and so relevant now, is that centrism is the place where you defend liberal democracy. It's fashionable today to talk about the death of liberalism and why liberalism can't possibly survive, and liberal democracy is an aberration in human history, and really we’re meant to be ruled by kings and autocrats. And I say no, liberal democracy is good. It's actually the best system of government we've ever had, and we should work really hard to defend it and to protect it.
And the only place you can do that is in the political center. You can't trust the political right and the political left to defend the institutions of liberal democracy, because they only do it up until the point when it's uncomfortable for them. The right has taken on itself the mantle of free speech, and the right is really great at protecting free speech right up until the point that it's speech they don't like and then they're banning books in libraries.
And the left loves talking about protecting the institutions of liberal democracy until it disagrees with them, and then it's happy to start bending around the edges. The Center is the place where we say the institutions, the ideas, the culture of liberal democracy, is something that's worth defending and worth defending passionately and strongly.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So I'm curious, are these core values universal to centrism, or are they really up to individual communities? Is it, in other words, is it up to communities, nations to decide what centrism is in their region, in their neck of the woods, if you will?
Yair Zivan:
So there is always variety in any political idea, in any political approach, where people adapt it to their own systems, but the core principles have to be the same core principles. And one of the things I set out to do in this book is to say, actually, centrism is something that works across the globe. So Malcolm Turnbull, the former Australian Prime Minister, and Andreas Velasco, a former presidential candidate in Latin America, and we have Argentinians, and we have a Japanese contributor, and the idea is to say centrism as the principles that I laid out as the core idea is the antidote to the extremism and polarization that we're seeing works everywhere, and that's actually a really important part.
Now, sure, there are different issues that you deal with in different countries. Also say the threat is different in different countries, if part of what we're doing is an alternative to extremism and polarization. Then in Latin America, people are more worried today about the rise of a populist far left, whereas in Europe, they might be more worried about the rise of a populist far right. And so the challenge is different and the response is different, but the core principles, I think, are the same and they are consistent.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So do you believe that this philosophy is eroding? I mean, it seems to be happening at the same time around the world, in various democracies, Europe, United States, Israel. But do you agree? I mean, is this eroding, or is that too strong a word?
Yair Zivan:
Look, I think one of the problems with centrist is we're often not very good at talking about our successes and pretty down on ourselves, rather than actually taking pride in really good things that we've done and in places where we win and places where we do well, the test of a political idea is not if it wins every election. No one wins every election, right? That's part of politics as a pendulum. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but the more important thing is not whether you win every election. And don't get me wrong, I work in politics. I like to win. I like to get votes. I like to be in government so that we can do the things that we care about, right? That's why we're in politics. But the test of the idea is whether it can also survive, defeat, an opposition and a time when you're not in power and come back from that stronger. And I think centrism has done that, and can continue to do that.
But part of the reason for the book is we haven't always been articulate enough, confident enough and coherent enough in the way that we present our case, and that's something that I hope this book will have some kind of role in changing. That is to say we need to be proud of our successes and our achievements. What happens when you have a successful centrist government, the next people in the political party that come along disavow it and move away from it. You saw it in Tony Blair's Labor Party. I would argue that new labor was an incredibly successful political project, and the thing that came next was a labor party that did everything it could to run away from that rather than embrace that legacy.
And as the Labor Party reembrace that legacy, not coincidentally, it also came to power again in the UK, and you see that across the world. I think there are places clearly where we're struggling and places where we need to do a better job, but I also think there are enough examples to show that centrism can work, and the kind of politics that we're pushing for can work and can be successful.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So where is it struggling and where is it succeeding the most?
Yair Zivan:
So look, I'll talk about something that is maybe close to our heart on this podcast, and that's the situation in Israel today, Israel is going through the most difficult time, I think, as a country that certainly in our lifetimes, if not since 1948 we October 7 was was the darkest day that any of us lived through. I'm a little reticent to talk about the political response to that, but one of the things that's interesting from a centrist perspective, is the response of the Israeli public has not been to move to the right. It's been to move to the political center. And if you look at opinion polls in Israel today, the next government, if elections were held today, would be a center center right government. And I'm confident that that will hold all the way through to whenever we have the next election. And I think that's because there is a sense in Israel that actually people want that type of governance. They want people who understand that you need to embrace compromise and moderation and pragmatism as values, rather than looking at them as kind of a political slur, as a vice, as something that we need to talk down about. And so I look at Israel as a place where, actually we lost the election.
In November '22 we elected a government that was, to my mind, very right wing. And populist and incredibly problematic. I think we've paid a very high price for that in the last 18 months or so, and now there is a move back towards the political center. Look, I think Emmanuel Macron has been an example of the success of political centrism. The fact that he struggled in the parliament in the most recent parliamentary elections is not an indictment of the fact that he managed to build a political center in France that wasn't really there before.
And the test, I guess, will be whether in two years, there is a successor from his party or not. So there are plenty of places I think that I can look out for being successful and where centrism does well. I think there's been some really good examples of political centrism in the US as well, despite the popular media narrative that everything is polarized. You look at groups like the problem solvers caucus in Congress, and you say, here is a group of members of Congress who are determined to work together, who are determined to cooperate and to find solutions to complicated problems and approach it in a really centrist way. Would I like to see centrists winning more in bigger majorities everywhere? Absolutely.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Can you give an example of an issue, pick a country, any country, but an issue that would really benefit from that pragmatic approach, that pragmatic centrist approach, sir
Yair Zivan:
Arne Duncan, who was President Obama's Secretary of Education, who writes about a willingness to take on teachers unions and a willingness to demand standards and a sense of what is the focus of education, right? Where the focus of education should be providing the best possible education to children, something we should all be able to rally around, and yet, something that we seem to have lost along the way.
And I think education comes back again and again as a core centrist focus. That's one. The other one that I think is really interesting is the essay by Rachel Pritzker. Rachel writes about climate change and about environment, and in it, she makes what I think is a really compelling case that says we can't fight back against the need for energy abundance, because, particularly in the developing world, people need energy in order to improve their quality of life, and they need a lot more energy than they have now. And the idea that the solution to climate change is turning off the lights every so often for a bit longer, is just not practical.
Now it comes from a perspective that says climate change is real and is a problem and it's something we need to address, but it kind of pushes away from, I think, most of the orthodoxies of much of the kind of climate change movement and the environmental protection movement, and says we need something different. And that thing is a focus on technology and on innovation that will allow people to create the energy that they need in order to raise their quality of life, rather than demanding that they use less. That is, I think, a really great centrist approach. It's not a splitting of the difference. It's clearly coming down on the side that says climate change is real and it's a problem and it's something we have to address. But it's rejecting orthodoxies and offering something I think that's different.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
And this seems like such a no brainer, right? I mean, it seems like these are our values, our principles that everyone should be able to agree upon, maybe not the methodology, right? Maybe that's what's up for debate. But it seems like these are just not points of contention.
Yair Zivan:
I think we're going against the grain of politics. I think today, people don't subscribe to a real full throated defense of liberal democracy, and people aren't really willing to defend free speech, including speech that they don't like. And people are taking advantage of feelings of patriotism and dragging them to a pretty ugly nationalism or rejecting patriotism altogether. And so I think a lot of the ideas are not the most natural grain of where politics is. I was on a panel a few days ago, and one of the panelists turned to me, looked at me deeply, and said, I don't think I've ever met a centrist before.
And I thought, I think you probably have, right? And if not, then, nice to meet you, hi, I'm a centrist. But the idea that actually it's going against the trend in politics is one that troubles me. Part of what I'm trying to do is to say to people, if you are a centrist, then speak up. And it's difficult when you're a centrist, you are the biggest threat today. The fight in politics today is not between left and right, it's between the center and the extremes.
And so what happens when you come out and say, I'm a centrist? This is what I believe, is you find yourself attacked by the extremes, and that's sometimes a difficult place to be. When I put the first tweet out about my book within half an hour, I was called every name under the sun. I was a communist and a Nazi all at once, depending on who was attacking me, right?
You have to be able to withstand that too often. Centrists have been shy and have kind of hidden back and said, I don't really mean it, and actually, I don't want to have this fight. Or actually, let's not talk about politics now, rather than saying, here's a set of values I believe in, and I'm passionate about and I'm willing to fight for them, and you know what, I am as committed to them, I am as passionate about them, and I'm as willing to fight for them as the extremes are about theirs. And because I think the majority of people are centrist and are looking for that motivation, I think that allows us to win the political argument, because if we're proud enough, then people will line up behind us who already do agree with the principles, but maybe feel like they're alone or there aren't enough people that share their views.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In other words, they're kind of anti confrontational. They avoid confrontation, or perhaps too many centrists don't want to sound too passionate about their values, because. As perhaps passion equates to extreme.
Yair Zivan:
You should be able to be a passionate centrist. You should be passionate about defending liberal democracy. You should be passionate about being a liberal patriot. You should be passionate about trying to give children equality of opportunity, right? Those things are things that it's good to be passionate about, and you should care about them.
I just don't recognize in the centrism that I see being successful, this perception of timidity, or this perception of being scared, but what you have, I think, is too many centrists who have taken that path, and you have kind of backed off and backed away from being passionate about those arguments, and that's where we lose.
So my call to centrists is to be loud and to be proud and to be passionate about the things that we really care about and where there are places where people might feel a little bit uncomfortable with it and not want to be confrontational, because maybe it goes with the more moderate and pragmatic mindset. Is to say we have to overcome it because the issues are too important for us not to.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Do I also want to clarify, being a centrist is not at the exclusion of the right or the left, right? It's more a conversation between both, or a consensus or a compromise of both, whatever works right, whatever works best for the greater good?
Yair Zivan:
There is an element of a rejection of the left and the right, to some extent, right, particularly of the fringes, and I'm incredibly critical of even some of the more moderate left and moderate right, because they're too willing to appease the extremes on their side. They're very good at calling out extremism and populism from the other camp, but not always good enough for calling out on their own side, which I think is where the challenge really lies. The idea is not to find a compromise.
The idea is not to split the difference between old ideas. It is about saying we should be focusing on what works. And I write a line in the book, slightly glibly, that, if it works, and if it makes people's lives better, does it really matter if it comes from Marx or from Hayek, right?
The political philosophy behind it certainly matters less than if it works the way that compromise can be a successful political tool. And I think we all compromise in our lives all the time, and suddenly when we get to politics, we see it as a sign of weakness or non-committal-ness or something like that, whereas in our everyday lives, we see it as a part of being able to function as an adult in society. I think the goal of that, the way that you do that successfully, the way you compromise successfully, is by being really clear about what your values are and what your ideals are and what you believe. And only then can you go to a compromise. If I try to compromise with people without being very firm about what I believe and what's important to me, I'll just get dragged to wherever they are because they're passionate and I'm not. They're committed and I'm not. So you have to be really clear about what your values are.
And I actually think the real test about compromise is whether you do it when you're in a position of power, not in a position of weakness. In politics, people compromise because they have to. I say you should compromise because you want to. And I'll give a kind of an example, I guess. If I had 51% of the votes in Parliament, and I could pass anything I wanted, and I had a belief, a reform that I passionately believed and wanted to get through, and I could pass it 100% the way that I wanted, or I could take it down to 80% of what I want, and take 20% from other people and increase my majority from 51% to 75% I would do that because I think it's right, because I think building consensus builds more sustainable policy, because I think it creates a healthier democracy and a healthier political culture.
Because I have enough humility to say that maybe I don't know everything, and I'm not right about everything, and the other side has something useful to contribute, even to something that I'm really passionate about. That's the test of compromise. Do you do it when you don't have to, but because you think it's the right thing to do? And again, it's dependent on knowing what your values are and dependent on knowing what you're not willing to compromise on, because if you don't have that, then you don't have the anchor from which you take your political beliefs.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
In other words, kind of seeding a little bit to the other side, not because you have to, but because you need that little percentage bump to pass your legislation, but because you'll just build more of a consensus and more support on both sides of the aisle, or both sides of eight aisles, whatever, however it works. But yeah, I mean, it's really about building a consensus among lawmakers for the greater good, rather than just claiming that slim victory.
Yair Zivan:
Yeah, it creates better policy and more sustainable policy. But there's also limits to it. You very rarely in politics get 100% support for anything. And often, if you've got to the place where everyone supports it, then you've probably gone too far with the compromise, right, and you've probably watered it down too much.
There are very rare moments in politics when everybody agrees about something, and there are cases, and there are cases when we can do that, but on the really big issues, it's rare for us to get to that level of consensus, and I don't think that's necessarily desirable either. But being able to build a little bit beyond your political comfort zone, a little bit beyond your camp, I think, is a really useful thing in politics, and there are models where it works really well.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
So let me ask you more specifically. Okay, what is eroding centrism? What forces really are working against it and in the places where the center is maintaining its hold, are those forces in reverse? In other words, have they found a way to conquer those particular forces, or have they found a way to conquer what works against centrism, or has it just not reached them yet?
Yair Zivan:
So I'll start by flipping the question, I don't think it's about, does centrism work when other people aren't strong enough to attack it and to take it apart? Centrism works when it's strong enough, in and of itself, and it's defining the political agenda. The goal of what I'm trying to do with the book and with the arguments that I'm making is to say, we define what is at the core of democratic politics. Now everybody else is going to have to respond to us. So that's the first thing. Is that switch in mindset away from Are we able to withstand, where the extremes are, to a place where we say, actually, we're the solid anchor, and now we are the ones that are defining the political moment and the political issues. Where is it that we do well? Is where we're confident, right?
When we're able to stand up and be proud of ourselves, and then you're more easily able to rebuff some of those forces. Where do I think centrism struggles? One of the places where it struggles, and this is my criticism of my own camp, which I think is always important to have that kind of, I think, a little bit of self awareness. We're often not good enough at really connecting with people's fears and grievances and concerns that are genuine, right? People really are worried about technological innovation and the pace of automation, and people are worried about immigration. And you can be worried about immigration without being a racist and without being a person that should be shunned or that we should criticize.
There is a genuine reason why people are worried about these things, and we have to be better at really connecting to those grievances and fears that people have to really understand them, to really empathize with them. That is the cost of entry, to be able to suggest different policies to them. If I want to convince someone that populist politics aren't going to work, I have to show that I care about them as much as the Populists do, and not seed that ground. And I don't think we're always really good enough at doing that. Where we are good at doing that, there's a huge reward.
And ultimately, I believe that on every issue, the solutions that we offer from the political center are more successful than the solutions that are offered by the populists and by the extremists, but we have to be able to convince the public of that you can't disregard people who vote for somebody you find distasteful, even if you think that the candidate they're voting for is somebody that you have real problems with, and even if the candidate they're voting for is actually a racist or is actually illiberal and undemocratic. That doesn't mean all the people voting for them are and it doesn't mean you can afford to dismiss those people. It means you need to do a better job of listening to them and connecting with them and bringing them back to our political camp. When politicians fail to get their message across because they're not doing a good enough job, it's not because of the public.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
Yair, thank you so much for joining us and for giving us a little bit of a pathway to expressing these kinds of views that aren't heard of a whole lot.
Yair Zivan:
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
Manya Brachear Pashman:
If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for a conversation between my colleague Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs, and Ron Kampeas, the Washington, D.C. Bureau Chief at the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
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