Afleveringen
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What does it mean to be drawn into the mystery of Divine Love? Even as beautifully as John writes, it is difficult to wrap our minds around the experience of the living God; the experience of a love that is free of every impediment and passion, a love that makes us sons and daughters of God and so shapes are identity in such a way that it is unshakable.
What is it that can overcome such a love? Our identity is often shaped by anxieties and fears, the unexpected and unknown, and our insecurities. Yet, as we are immersed in the love of God, all fear dissipates and is overtaken by an urgent longing for God and the thirst for his love.
We often resist opening ourselves up and becoming vulnerable to this love. One famous author wrote, “humankind can only bear so much reality.“ Yet the love of God, the more that it is experienced, allows us to run toward that reality rather than avoid it . It reveals to us that even our weaknesses, the things that we perhaps hate about ourselves or the wounds that we bear, draw us toward him. Love reveals to us that we experience nothing in isolation. Christ is always present to us and within us. This being so allows us to offer Him all that we are without shame.
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00:06:36 Una: Byzantine Carmelite nuns https://www.byzantinediscalcedcarmelites.com/index.html 00:06:55 Una: In Sugarloaf, Pennsylvania 00:08:46 Bob Cihak, AZ: The author was one of the lecturers at Acton University when I attended over 10 years ago."The Glory that is Pittsburgh" at https://www.theepochtimes.com/opinion/the-glory-that-is-pittsburgh-5753572 00:12:33 Una: A line from that article that has me ROFL 00:12:35 Una: Pittsburgh is a town that makes me want to rhapsodize like a follower of Ayn Rand. 00:14:05 carol_000: Does this Zoom start a bit before 5:30 E Time ? 00:14:28 Una: Just chat before 5:30 00:15:10 carol_000: Una ..Thanks 00:16:00 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Is it the same material as Father posts on FB? 00:16:01 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 244, #9 00:19:08 Daniel Allen: What page are we on again? Sorry I missed it. 00:19:16 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 244, #9 00:19:21 Daniel Allen: Thank you 00:46:02 Anthony: Part of the issue is how we receive the Gospel and Apocalypse....these are written with fearful language. 00:48:36 susan: some of the teaching seems so hard to do or embrace and seems like climbing Mt Everest lol so I have decided to become a micro ascetic offer the smallest, micro offerings tiny tiny acts 00:50:21 Anthony: Should peter have been confident of forgiveness , even before the Lord forgave him? 00:51:12 David: Isn't there a process of letting go of things that leads us from obedience and caring to devotion. It seems love itself has stages and perhaps devotion is a joy in itself. But without letting go we lack faith and trust in the beloved. 01:04:11 David: My grandfather one time had me write down everything I was worried about for weeks. He kept it and showed it to me a year later and I realized how much time I wasted on that. While it took me years to understand it did help me move from belief to faith. 01:04:29 Daniel Allen: How do you give God “those things” in a concrete way? For instance how do you give God your anxiety in a concrete way, because sometimes offering it in prayer seems somewhat abstract. 01:05:19 Wayne: Reacted to "My grandfather one t..." with 👍 01:08:28 David: A beautiful tradition I saw in Potes, Spain was at collection people would give both money but what concerned them or what sins they were struggling with written on small pieces of paper to bring to the altar. I wonder which this is just a small town and (small t tradition) rather than more common. Just struck me as beautiful and I still think of that when I put something in the collection basket. 01:09:07 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Some find writing helpful - a note or letter to the Lord in one's journal. Or an expression in art... 01:09:14 Anna Lalonde: More frequent mystery of Repentance and gratitude are so important for this! Seen it with grief in my children and I. 01:14:41 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father! 01:14:48 Rachel: Thank you 01:14:49 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:14:50 David: Thank you father. May God bless you! 01:15:33 Jeff O.: Thank you so much! -
Tonight we read the final sections on the fathers’ reflection on the practice of fasting. Once again the focus is on decorum; how does one eat in the presence of others while not giving himself over to pride. It is ever so easy to think oneself the great ascetic and hold oneself above others within the community. Ego can even distort well-practiced discipline into something that sets oneself apart from others rather than leads one to show greater desire for God, virtue and mercy towards others.
All of our practices, the fathers teach us, must be guided by spirit of gratitude. We give thanks for the food that we receive and that nourishes us and we avoid criticizing others for how much they eat. Self discipline is not a weapon to be wielded by the ego for its own pleasure. Our tendency is to devour our brothers’ flesh by our criticism, and as the psalmist tells us to “eat up God’s people as if eating our bread.”
A humble attitude must be fostered, and we must not be ill-mannered. For example, a senior monk within a monastery must not demand honor or reverence or put on airs before his juniors. He must not draw attention to Himself in any way that would diminish charity among the brothers. What is the value of toiling all day only to undermine oneself to satisfy petty pride?
Again, the fathers want us to understand that fasting and all of our disciplines are about love. We must not diminish the practice by becoming legalistic or moralistic in our view. Therefore, we are taught not to takes oaths about avoiding certain foods. In doing so we set aside the freedom that is ours. No food is reprehensible. We are merely to eat with restraint and gratitude. But if we take an oath and then break it by eating the particular food we fall into perjury. As Christ tells us, no food is unclean; rather it is what comes out of the heart that makes a person unclean or sinful.
A rather lengthy discussion ensued in regards to avoiding a kind of ghetto mentality in our Christian practice; setting ourselves apart from others rather than serving them in the love of Christ. It is a narrow line that we walk and demands that we understand that all is grace. Christ has taken on our poverty and emptied himself in order that we might know the fullness of life and love. Our exercise of the faith, that is, our asceticism, must be relational; it must be directed toward Christ and enable us to love as He loves. Asceticism is not an end in itself, nor do we live out our Christianity in isolation. We turn to Christ, we die to sin and self, in order to be raised to life in him. To avoid the kind of isolationism that we would see in the scribes and Pharisees, we must become Christ.
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00:09:37 Cindy Moran: The joys of home ownership 😜 00:11:29 Una: I'm a happy renter 00:12:37 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 168, #F 00:35:02 Erick Chastain: Once you pop you can't stop- pringles 00:35:21 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Once you pop you can..." with 😮 00:36:46 Adam Paige: Two recommendations on fasting and feasting.. Benedictine monk Adalbert de Vogue's book To Love Fasting is back in print in English (https://a.co/d/3hSwoIX), and I recently watched the film Babette's Feast for the first time - very moving ! 00:38:09 Myles Davidson: A free PDF of To Love Fasting is available here:https://archive.org/details/tolovefasting 00:40:39 Adam Paige: Reacted to "A free PDF of To Lov..." with ❤️🔥 00:46:33 Francisco Ingham: There’s a great Chesterton quote related to this point 00:46:43 Francisco Ingham: “Let us put a complex entrée into a simple old gentleman; let us not put a simple entrée into a complex old gentleman. So long as human society will leave my spiritual inside alone, I will allow it, with a comparative submission, to work its wild will with my physical interior. I will submit to cigars. I will meekly embrace a bottle of Burgundy. I will humble myself to a hansom cab. If only by this means I may preserve to myself the virginity of the spirit, which enjoys with astonishment and fear.” 00:54:11 Adam Paige: Reacted to "“Let us put a comple..." with 🍷 00:55:51 Ambrose Little: Can you comment on the seeming contradiction between Christ’s example of eating and drinking with sinners (and generally chastising Pharisees for being puritanical), and the counsel to avoid such and only surround oneself with those we deem holy and who think like we do. 01:05:17 Ambrose Little: It seems like there is real danger (that has actually been realized) in thinking and acting as if the church is only for the already perfect. But as Pope Francis has emphasized, the church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners. I just think the advice to avoid sinners and those who are not seeking God as we imagine we are can easily be internalized as exclusivity, isolationism, and judgmentalism. It requires humility as a primary principle, to realize we are sinners, too. 01:14:29 Ambrose Little: Amen. Thank you! 01:14:48 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:14:54 santiagobua: Thank you ! 01:15:36 ANDREW ADAMS: Thank you, Father! 01:15:47 Francisco Ingham: Thank you Father 01:15:52 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father 01:15:59 Erick Chastain: Thank you father! 01:16:05 Una: Thank you 01:16:08 santiagobua: Where can we find the Substack? 01:16:10 SYu’s iPhone: Thank you, Father. 01:16:43 ANDREW ADAMS: Replying to "Where can we find th..." https://substack.com/@frcharbelabernethy 01:16:46 Myles Davidson: https://substack.com/@frcharbelabernethy 01:16:50 Adam Paige: Reacted to "https://substack.com..." with 👍 01:17:10 santiagobua: Reacted to "https://substack.com..." with 👍 01:17:17 Ambrose Little: Reacted to "https://substack.com…" with 👍 01:17:18 Erick Chastain: Just woke up earlier -
Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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We are brought to the denouement of the Ladder in these final steps on Dispassion and the “Trinity of Virtues” - Faith, Hope and Love. The words of St. John ring forth as if from the mouth of a poet. It is only one who has experience of and has seen the beauty of Divine love who can then speak of the urgent longing that begins to take over the soul when it no longer is held back by the weight of sin or one’s ego.
The dispassionate man, St. John tells us, no longer lives himself, but Christ lives in him. He has eyes only for the beloved and living in constant union with him. All becomes Grace; Christ’s virtue becomes our virtue, Christ’s strength becomes our strength, Christ’s love becomes our love.
Understanding this we must not allow anything to hold us back. Above all we should desire to enter into the bridal chamber; for this is exactly what Christ has made possible for us. Our relationship with God is often described with nuptial imagery; we are destined to become one with the most holy Trinity. What excuse could we possibly put forward for not at least seeking to break through the wall of our sin by embracing the forgiveness that is so freely offered?
St. John’s discussion of dispassion leads us to the final step of the Ladder. The theological virtues, named so because they have God as their end, become St. John’s subject matter. These three are preeminent because they endure unto eternity. The greatest of them, love, allows no respite for the soul but drives her on with a kind of blessed madness. Overcome with an urgent longing for the Beloved it takes on a greater resemblance to God in so far as this is possible. The soul becomes inebriated - so often does it seek to satisfy its thirst for divine love. Having satisfied this desire the heart expands, taking on distinctive properties where it becomes a fountain of faith, an abyss of patience and a sea of humility. What takes place then is extraordinary: love banishes every thought of evil or judgment. Only mercy, forgiveness and compassion remain.
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00:13:44 Myles Davidson: According to Wikipedia Scorcese is doing one on Moses the Black 00:14:08 Myles Davidson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Scorsese_Presents:_The_Saints 00:18:40 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 243, #13 00:37:15 Anthony: Renzo Allegri write a book: "Padre Pio Man of Hope." Good book. 00:39:32 Anthony: And this is why legalism and scrupulousity is such a problem. They strangle wonder and longing. 00:41:29 Anthony: Franciscans are like the east 00:56:20 Anthony: Eastern Star 00:56:26 Leilani Nemeroff: Eastern Star 00:57:29 David: A book that really lead me to the fathers and from mere belief to faith was "What Difference Does Jesus Make"- Frank Sheed. Really hard to find not sure why this is not more popular. 00:59:25 carol_000: What time zone did this meeting start at 7:30 00:59:34 Nypaver Clan: EST 00:59:34 David: EST 00:59:48 carol_000: Thanks 01:00:09 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Thanks" with 🥰 01:01:21 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: The kingdom must be preached/shared - we are way too silent about sharing our faith... 01:02:42 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Guardini has a great book on prayer.. 01:02:49 Jeff O.: Reacted to "Guardini has a great..." with 👍 01:04:42 carol_000: Calgary, Alberta Canada. Mountain Standard Time. My first time here. 01:05:07 Nypaver Clan: Meditations Before Mass - Guardini 01:05:07 Myles Davidson: Welcome 🙂 01:06:19 carol_000: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Thanks. 01:07:33 Nypaver Clan: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Hooray! Glad you found us! 🙏🏼 01:07:36 Jeff O.: The madness of pride as opposed to the madness of love is an interesting juxtaposition. Two very distinct and different “pictures” of madness. 01:09:10 Cindy Moran: Reacted to The madness of pride... with "👍" 01:09:48 Cindy Moran: Me, too!! 01:09:53 Nypaver Clan: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Welcome, Canada!🇨🇦 01:10:06 carol_000: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" I've been following Fr. Charbel for a while, but now I'm wondering which branch of Orthodoxy is this? Reference to author & "Mass" ? 01:10:59 Nypaver Clan: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Byzantine01:11:09 carol_000: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Thanks 01:12:54 Anna Lalonde: Thank you! My children and I are loving this. 01:13:03 Nypaver Clan: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Ukrainian Greek 01:14:09 Jeff O.: That would be lovely! 01:14:26 carol_000: Replying to "Welcome 🙂" Thanks, I was raised Ukr. Grk Orthodox but now go to OCA church in All English. 01:14:45 Kevin & Lilly: Yes!! 01:14:52 Rachel: and icon paintng 01:15:00 Jacqulyn: Let's do it! 01:15:34 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father 01:15:35 ANDREW ADAMS: Thank you, Father! 01:15:35 Anna Lalonde: Prayers for my healing. Please especially St Charbel help me! 01:15:38 Rachel: thank you! 01:15:39 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 😊 01:15:42 Jeff O.: Thank you! Great to be with you all! 01:15:44 David: Thank you father! 01:15:46 Dave Warner (AL): Thank you Father! 01:15:54 Edmund Dyjak: Thank You GOD Bless You -
We have continued to make our way through the final few hypotheses about fasting and eating in general. What is gradually coming to light is that our relationship with Christ and our identity in Him is to form and fashion every aspect of our lives. This includes what we might consider the most mundane aspects of our life or what we take for granted, such as eating and common meals.
What becomes perfectly clear in this hypothesis, however, is that there is a specific decorum that emerged in the practice of the fathers. The way that they looked at food and the way that they ate their common meals was all shaped by their greater commitment to the life of prayer and silence. The ascetical life shaped their actions and supported their pursuit of the ultimate goal. Thus eating, the quality of the food, the mannerisms at table and amount of food that other monks ate and the general behavior during meals all became important matters and subject to proper formation.
The ideal was not to form a Christian gentleman, but rather to form a heart that was watchful at all times of the day and that was very much aware of the power of our most basic appetites. We see restraint being taught; that is, slowing oneself down at meals and not being driven by the pressure of hunger or the allure of delicious food. It is Christ the Bread of Life that one is always seeking and so the way that we approach our meals should be a reflection of how we approach the Lord in the Holy Mysteries. Our mindset, our sense of gratitude, the solemnity of our attitudes and behaviors are all reflection of our understanding of the connection with the Paschal Mystery. When we think of our own formation we must have this broad scope so that we do not treat our ascetic practices as ends in themselves. All that we do must be offered to God or it is wasted.
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00:17:20 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 165, #A 00:44:06 Una: LOL about the comment about men eating. And then they throw their silverware in the trash? Obviously, I've never been in a men's monastery. But how can we who are living in the world apply these standards to everyday dinners with family? 00:46:49 Una: I'm thinking of Thanksgiving Dinner where people gobble gobble gobble and aren't focused on God at all. Last year I had a hard time getting them to listen to the Prayer of St. Francis before the meal. Very secular family. How I personally may maintain my recollection yet still be social 00:47:50 Una: I find I can "go out" of myself so easily and get lost in socializing and talking (I'm an extravert) and then have difficulty becoming recollected again 01:03:42 Una: Is it true that the early Irish monasticism came from Egypt? 01:10:13 Una: There's a new book on this subject: Monastery and High Cross: The Forgotten Eastern Roots of Irish Christianity 01:10:20 Una: by Connie Marshner 01:10:34 Una: Sophia Institute Press 01:11:49 Steve: Good story 01:11:59 Una: Connie Marshner is a Melkite Green Catholic in Virginia 01:21:26 ANDREW ADAMS: Thank you, Father! 01:21:48 Troy Amaro: Thank you Father. 01:22:30 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you, sorry I was so late, our clocks went back an hour yesterday and I forgot about the time difference 01:24:18 ANDREW ADAMS: Where does one find the substack? I’m not knowledgeable on the whole social media scene. 01:25:19 Adam Paige: Where does one find the substack? I’m not knowledgeable on the whole social media scene.https://substack.com/@frcharbelabernethy 01:25:44 ANDREW ADAMS: Replying to "Where does one find ..." Thank you! 01:27:47 Bob Cihak, AZ: .. or https://frcharbelabernethy.substack.com/ 01:28:16 Paul G.: Replying to ".. or https://frchar…"+1 01:29:21 Maureen Cunningham: Thank you 01:32:17 Maureen Cunningham: Wow -
St. John understands that we are out of our depths whenever we try to capture with words what comes through experience. This is true in particular of the heights of prayer, contemplation, and with dispassion. John’s language is poetic and thus a reflection of his straining to present us with the end of the spiritual life and what the heart longs for the most.
In concluding his teachings on prayer, he warns us of certain pitfalls to avoid in order that our focus might remain upon Christ. Above all he does not want us to become discouraged by the attack of the evil one. Such a thing is to be expected. Prayer is so beautiful and transformative that the demons are going to do everything they can to disrupt it. Yet, John would have us understand that the demons are scourged by prayer and when we show fortitude they flee. Finally, he would have be confident in the practice of prayer. There is nothing that one can write in a book that is necessary when we have God himself as the Teacher of prayer. It is the Holy Spirit that searches the depths of God the guides us forward.
Dispassion is even more difficult to capture with mere words for it describes one who has made his flesh incorruptible and has subdued all the senses; keeping his soul before the face of the Lord and always straining towards him. One is not only detached from the things of this world but has a gathered an exhaustible store of virtue as a source of strength. They are driven no longer by fear, but now only love; love that cannot be understood by mere reason. The soul is drawn forward by an urgent longing that belongs only to those who are created in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, St. John sees dispassion as purity of heart; where a person has reached a level of existence where sin has no hold upon them and there is no longer even any awareness of the presence of demons. Such an individual is wholly united with God and always will be.
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00:05:24 Gregory Chura: Which step? 00:06:05 Bob Cihak, AZ: p. 240, #58 00:07:29 Myles Davidson: Can I ask what edition of The Ladder we are reading from? 00:08:08 Adam Paige: Paulist Press edition page 281 🙂 00:09:01 Adam Paige: The introduction is excellent too, although it doesn’t contain the Letter to the Shepherd at the end 00:11:21 Bob Cihak, AZ: p. 240, #58 00:15:46 Kevin & Lilly: Aren't we supposed to expose our wound (sin) in its entirety for Jesus to heal it (in the confessional)? Similar to removing the band-aid, even if it hurts us? 00:21:42 Cindy Moran: Some things you can not "unsee" 00:26:26 susan: I get attacked walking up to communion and then I feel 00:26:48 susan: like I have done something wrong 00:29:02 Anthony: I also think having undergone at least once a spiritual attack, a person anticipates it and therefore brings it to mind? 00:31:05 Christian Corulli: Love of God destroys all fear 00:56:07 Christian Corulli: This sounds like the 7th Mansion of St. Teresa, can we make that comparison? Do the Carmelites trace the same spiritual path as St. John Climacus? 01:08:10 David: Is there an element of experience or getting older in this step. My grandfather always used to say youth is a process of acquiring and drive and growing old is the challenge of learning to let go. Through suffering, experience I can see more an more elements of dispassion or not feeling as connected to what many seek in the world and am left with only what endures which is family and faith. 01:22:15 David: Saving us from ourselves 01:22:38 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You Blessing to all 01:23:06 Gregory Chura: Thank you, everyone, 01:23:06 Tracey Fredman: Reacted to "Thank You Blessing t..." with ❤️ 01:23:07 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father !!! 01:23:10 Anthony Kinyon (Αντώνιος Κινγιόν): Thank you Fr. Charbel. 01:23:10 Jeff O.: Thank you!! 01:23:10 David: Thank you father and God bless you and your mom 01:23:11 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:23:16 Cameron Jackson: Overwhelmed again. Thank you Fr. 01:24:13 Alexandra: Thank you Father. I'll pray for you -
It’s important for us as we read the fathers and consider the discipline that they embraced regarding our appetites and desires that we do not demonize these realities or fall into extreme practices. At the heart of the fathers’ lives and teachings is desire; allowing the love of God and gratitude for his gifts to guide and direct their understanding of life and perception of reality.
It is true that the desert was every bit the laboratory; the fathers often pushed themselves in extreme ways in order that their appetites and their desires for satisfaction and pleasure would lose their grip upon them. They were often harsh with themselves in ways that seem abhorrent to modern sensibilities.
Yet they realized that these realities are very powerful parts of our humanity. The body, for example, through the ascetic life can be a powerful aid in our sanctification. However, if we approach our appetites in an unmeasured fashion, or in a way that is simply focused upon the self, then that which is most beautiful can be corrupted.
Thus, our own embrace of the ascetic life should be rooted in desire; our sense of lack and incompleteness outside of God. Our truest identity is established and found only in Him. Such a vision must be fostered from the earliest years of our lives. For it is not something that one can give or share with another. It comes only through experience. One comes to love the disciplines of which the father speak (fasting, prayer, vigils etc.) because they are far more than mere disciplines. They open up the path for us to experience the invincible joy and peace and freedom of the Kingdom. “Taste and see the goodness of the Lord.”
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00:15:57 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 161, G 00:16:11 Adam Paige: Reacted to "P. 161, G" with 👍 01:05:40 Bob Cihak, AZ: From Adam:Adam Paige 5:14 PMShould we avoid restaurants since they’re typically predicated on desirable food ? Or should we order a less appealing meal when we are at a restaurant ? 01:12:52 Cindy Moran: You aren't missing anything! 01:14:19 Adam Paige: Reacted to "You aren't missing a…" with 😂 01:19:42 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You Father 01:19:55 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:19:59 ANDREW ADAMS: Thank you, Father! 01:20:11 Tracey Fredman: Glad you are feeling better, Fr. Charbel! 01:20:14 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father. 01:20:21 Kevin Burke: Thank You Father! 01:20:39 Tracey Fredman: Liturgy of the Hours is one you mentioned one time. Is that a possibility for a topic? 01:20:47 Adam Paige: Reacted to "Liturgy of the Hours…" with ❤️ 01:21:01 Cameron Jackson: Thank you Father 01:21:19 Myles Davidson: Your Substack is excellent Father -
As St. John draws us more deeply into his understanding of prayer and the experience of intimacy with God, he begins to emphasize the importance of maintaining purity of heart and humility. Either through negligence or through demonic provocation, we can find ourselves being driven not by the Holy Spirit toward God but rather driven by the desires of the flesh. The vulnerability of prayer, opening our minds and our hearts to God, also carries with it the need to have established watchfulness of heart. If we have not we can indiscriminately open ourselves up to certain dangers. For example, we may allow our mind to wander during prayer in such a way that we turn away from God. It can even happen that in this turning away we are move towards the enemies of God. Like Judas we can share most intimately with the Lord at the table of the holy Eucharist and then immediately be driven out by an unholy spirit into the darkness. It is those who are closest to Christ who often betray him the most.
We all take certain things for granted. This is true in our relationship with God. We can treat that relationship cheaply; enter into it with a kind of familiarity to the point that we lose sight of the preciousness of what God has made possible for us. Our attachment to the things of this world or to individuals can fill our minds and our hearts even during the time of prayer. Therefore, John wants us to have no illusions about what it is that we ask for and seek in prayer. Our greatest desire should be what leads us to God and what endures unto eternity. As Saint James tell us: “we ask, but we do not receive because we ask wrongly.” We seek only the satisfy our natural wants and desires. As it has been said, “The fool’s portion is small in his eyes.” Often we do not see the beauty of what God offers us.
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00:12:58 Bob Cihak, AZ: P.239, #50 00:13:44 Tracey Fredman: Reacted to "P.239, #50" with 👍 00:14:28 Dave Warner (AL): Reacted to "P.239, #50" with 👍 00:51:38 Rachel: or to satisfy ego since it is difficult to see oneself as nothing and in such need. 00:59:38 David: Someone told me once - measure your thoughts and you measure what you treasure. Treasure only what is everlasting. 01:02:14 Laura: Reacted to "Someone told me once..." with 👍🏼 01:04:59 Rebecca Thérèse: It seems to me that it's easier to catch someone in infidelity these days because of socia media and smart devices etc than it was previously. 01:11:31 Anthony: I've wondered if we get monastic life and vocations imbalanced? I read that among Syrians, there was one "monastic" community composed of subsets of vowed religious, families and singles. This makes for universality and diversity and maybe a healthier psychology for persons? 01:13:45 Rebecca Thérèse: Thomas Szasz the anti-psychiatry psychiatrist wrote a paper about how psychiatrists persuaded the Church that sex abusers were ill and could be treated and how this led to priests being "treated" and moved instead of being fired. 01:14:12 Una: Jon Hassler wrote North of Hope dealing with this situation of the priest who dealt with this issue 01:14:29 Una: Excellent novel 01:18:38 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father...great to be back in class!! 01:18:40 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂 01:18:47 David: Thank you father. Glad your feeling better! 01:18:51 Jeff O.: Thank you!! 01:19:02 Rachel: Thank you 01:19:03 Tracey Fredman: Reacted to "Thank you father. Gl..." with ❤️ -
It may seem surprising that the fathers spend so much time speaking about food and how we approach eating. Yet the needs of the flesh are very much a part of who we are as human beings. So how we eat and what we eat can affect what goes on internally. We can be subject to disorder or extremes in one fashion or another.
What we see in the desert fathers and mothers is a love of fasting because they saw it as the insurer and foundation of the other virtues. In other words, when one can order an appetite and a desire towards what is good and specifically as tied to our hunger for God, then we are able to do so with other aspects of our humanity and our other appetites. Eating, being one of the most basic needs can lead us in one of two directions; either it is the gateway vice that opens us up to be more vulnerable to disordered appetites, or our restriction of our diet can turn us toward God who satisfies the deepest longings of the human heart.
The fathers examine the practice of eating from multiple perspectives. They had an acute sense of the subtlety with which the mind approaches such a practice. We can be hyper-focused upon the body and its needs. We can use illness as an excuse for slothfulness or to eat beyond our needs or what health demands. Likewise, we can become overly focused upon the quality of food and only want what is pleasing to the pallet or perfectly fresh. We lose sight of the fact that what we prize so much passes into the latrine. It may satisfy the pallet but it does not give rest to the soul.
The fathers also understood that we must give ourselves over to this practice without over-analyzing its value. Our tendency to pamper the body can make us and our consciences become callous and lead us down the path to hedonism. We lose sight of the fact that this appetite is incited by everything in the culture around us that has made food an idol. It has also made it a medicine in the sense that we turned to it to find solace and comfort. In a subtle way we are being taught to avoid affliction at any cost and to question the redeeming nature of the cross.
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00:10:54 Nick Bodmer: I had a question about the next work for the Wednesday group. What is after the Ladder, and is there a recommend translation? 00:12:17 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 159, #B 00:12:40 Nick Bodmer: 👍 00:21:03 Bob Cihak, AZ: A good friend lost 20 pounds. His method: When I'm not hungry, I don't eat. 00:22:02 Myles Davidson: Do you have any advice for those of us who are very slim and with very little body fat but who want to increase our fasting practice? I’m finding it a real art-form and a balance that’s not easy to find. 00:25:01 Bob Cihak, AZ: Many find "Eat, Fast, Feast" a book by my friend, Jay Richards, very helpful. He looks at fasting for spiritual, fitness and dietary reasons; he says no one else had written such a book. 00:25:25 Forrest Cavalier: Hi Myles, I am low BMI myself. I discipline my fasting in order to not go below a target weight. For me 137 lbs. I do not eat breakfast. I do not eat snacks during Lent. I have to increase calories at some meals. Most of my fasting discipline is not calorie reduction, but not eating dairy or meat on Wednesday and Friday. 00:28:10 Nick Bodmer: This is why the medieval monks made beer 🤣 Maintains calories. 00:29:28 Myles Davidson: Reacted to "This is why the medi..." with 😃 00:36:23 Nikki: If someone is not lean after a decent time of fasting and self discipline with their eating, would that be an indicator they aren’t being disciplined enough to reach that deeper intimacy with the Lord? 00:39:40 Anthony: St Thomas Aquinas was so big they cut a hole in dining table fir him....so I've heard. Some people like Neapolitans can be big boned people. 00:41:58 Andrew Adams: cortisol 00:42:02 Nick Bodmer: Cortisol 00:42:51 Joseph: St. Athanasius described St. Anthony: “And they, when they saw him, wondered at the sight, for he had the same habit of body as before, and was neither fat, like a man without exercise, nor lean from fasting and striving with the demons, but he was just the same as they had known him before his retirement.” 00:46:45 Bob Cihak, AZ: Our culture now promotes paying MORE money for LESS nutritional value, counting calories as a nutritional value. 00:52:28 Anthony: The news scares about food also contribute to our derangement 01:00:20 Anthony: Bloomin onion 01:05:06 Anthony: The marketers sell us on the things that cause problems and then sell us on the "remedies".....which cause more problems. This is prophecy of Amos territory. 01:09:52 Nick Bodmer: Health is a good, but when we make it an ultimate good, and end in itself, it becomes an idol. 01:11:16 Bob Cihak, AZ: Reacted to "Health is a good, bu..." with 👍 01:11:51 Bob Cihak, AZ: . As a recovering (retired) MD, I agree with Nick. 01:13:21 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:13:23 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 -
Above all St. John’s writing on prayer works to break through the myopic vision that we have of life, of prayer, and of God. Like so many of the fathers, he will hammer away at anything which prevents us from experiencing the fullness of God’s love and mercy. Thus, he both rebukes and encourages.
We began this evening with a warning about admitting fantasies into our mind and heart during prayer. The demonic provocation at such times will be to use religious ideas, visions, etc., to distract us from the beloved and the encounter with him in silence. However, John tells us, if we hold fast to this prayer we are given an invincible assurance; there is a loss of all doubt and the certainty of God’s love is all that remains. The encounter with God Himself is proof of the unprovable!
We must give great care to put on the mind of Christ. We must be merciful as our Heavenly Father is merciful. To allow ourselves even to think of justice is going to immediately pull us down. For there is no justice! What has been revealed to us is unconditional love, mercy, and compassion. To turn a harsh eye toward another is to turn our eyes away from God.
Furthermore, we must allow God in his providence to set both the time and measure of prayer. We cannot treat it as something that anything else in our life is equal to in importance. This is especially true in those blessed moments where God fills the heart with compunction and the eyes with tears that cleanse the soul. We must not break away or abandoned prayer until we see that by divine Providence both the fervor and tears have diminished. “For perhaps you will not have such a moment for the remission of your sins again in all your life.“ We must always choose the one thing necessary.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:15:36 Una: The Catholic psychologist Dr. Raymond Lloyd Richmond 00:15:53 Una: ChastitySF.com 00:31:09 Anthony: Why are Roman Catholics so fixated on justice? I've thought it's due to inheriting the legal notions of Roman imperial law and German folk law. But we're so focused on law, that being a Roman Catholic is sometimes not appealing. Thank God for persons like St Francis of Assisi. 00:33:15 Victor Haburchak: Americans are impacted by English Common Law. We’re more rigid than Italians it’s been said. 00:34:42 Anthony: I went to Italy. Naples and South. It's so different 00:34:56 Victor Haburchak: Reacted to "I went to Italy. Nap…" with 👍 00:38:00 Victor Haburchak: On the monastic rules for fasting my grandfather, a Ruthenian immigrant from Eastern Europe, said they were practically starving & yet there were constant calls to fast throughout the year while he was slaving in coal mins v 00:38:47 Victor Haburchak: Coal mines…. 00:41:16 Victor Haburchak: He was a Greek-Catholic so experienced strictness of G-C priests. 01:05:38 Anthony: So that prayer also is as quick as breath 01:16:48 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:16:51 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:16:51 Myles Davidson: That was a great hour. Thankyou Fr ! God bless you! 01:16:53 David: Thanks Father! 01:16:55 Cindy Moran: Thank You Father!!! 01:16:57 Jeff O.: Thank you! Great to be with you all. -
We continued this evening to delve more deeply into the fathers’ understanding of the practice of fasting. Once again we see that they learned from experience that it is better to eat once a day but not to the point of satiation. One must be measured and restrained in the practice, so is not to become weak and incapable of work or of fulfilling one’s prayer rule.
We also began to see that there was variance in the practices embraced by various monks, both in terms of their diet and the amount they ate. The practice was not to pamper the body but also not to destroy it. The body is necessary in the spiritual battle. Thus one must be discerning in one’s spiritual practice and patient.
We were also introduced this evening to the particular temptations that arise throughout the course of one’s spiritual life. Again, we must realize that we struggle not only with our own natural weaknesses and the weakness of our sin, but also with temptations and provocations that come to us from the Evil One. We are often tempted by what we see. We covet what appeals to the eyes and seems to promise enjoyment or satisfaction. We hear stories of the father’s catching themselves being tempted to break the rule of fasting.
What is needed is humility. Fasting is a discipline and when we fail we are to humbly acknowledge it and confess it. We must never be tempted after having fallen to hide our failure or lie about it. It is then that we are truly in the grip of the father of lies and will be further led astray by even greater deception.
Finally, we were taught that there are certain passions that we must be willing to cut out of our life completely. There are certain things that have such a hold on our hearts and enslave our wills that there must be the courage and the willingness to remove it from our lives completely. We must always be willing to choose the better part and to sacrifice all for that pearl great price.
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Text of chat during the group: 00:10:41 David Fraley: Hello everyone! Thank you! 00:11:08 David Fraley: Thank you! 00:11:29 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 154 A 00:16:00 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 154 A 00:21:40 Anthony: Yeah, I multiplied devotion. It wasn't so great for me. 00:28:34 Joseph Muir: What page are we on? 00:29:11 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 156 C 00:33:21 Anthony: That bread isn't going to rise well like french bread. It's either flatbread or pancakes. That's a basic sacrifice. 00:33:48 Vanessa: Replying to "That bread isn't goi..." no yeast. 00:38:04 Sandra Whatley: "Silence is a place where the serpent can not go. It is a place as toxic to him as his environment is to us"Father 7/23 00:39:09 Sandra Whatley: This is what Father told me in prayer 00:45:30 Nikki: The desert fathers approach fasting in different ways. How do we find out what we should do personally regarding approaching a limitation of food (choices & amount) along with heightened self-discipline, when over time the difficulties of continuing that level of intensity may have one think with all seriousness that they should start eating more/fast less? Concerned perhaps they are not eating enough and maybe their bodies showing signs of this. 00:54:26 Nikki: Thank you 00:54:46 Kevin Burke: https://archive.org/details/tolovefasting/mode/2up 00:55:19 Kevin Burke: On-line version of the Book To Love Fasting 00:58:39 Nypaver Clan: Would it have made more sense to leave it for someone else than to waste it? 01:06:48 Nypaver Clan: There’s a reason the computer is “Apple.” 01:07:18 Bob Cihak, AZ: Reacted to "There’s a reason the..." with 😯 01:07:20 Nypaver Clan: The symbol is very telling…. 01:09:41 Sheila: A large amount of tv shows out there are straight up porn but it's easy to make excuses that it's ok to watch...but let's be real...is it? Single, in a relationship or married, the toll it takes on yourself or the person you care about is so subtle..but it erodes away at real intimacy. 01:11:07 Sheila: Truth. 01:12:14 Una: I used to write Christian romances (clean romances, no sex scenes) but i gave it up because I felt it did harm to people's imaginations and spiritual life, setting up unreality. I think the Desert Fathers would have something to say about this! 01:13:10 Una: Movement toward Reality. Well said! 01:14:53 Anthony: Isaac came to my home today! 01:15:25 David Fraley: Thanks, Father! Have a great night! 01:15:26 Sandra Whatley: Thank you so very much. 01:15:36 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:15:53 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father. -
What is prayer and, more importantly, what do we become by engaging in prayer? So often we take a reductive view of the realities in our life, including the reality of our relationship with God. We reduce our converse with God to a discipline or an afterthought or worse and obligation. And yet as we read the fathers, we begin to see with greater clarity that prayer involves a kind of mutual vulnerability. We stand before the Other, God, withholding nothing of ourselves from him. In this, we imitate Him who has revealed himself to us in the most vulnerable fashion. He has drawn back the veil and revealed his heart to us and the depth of his love and compassion.
Such a vision of prayer precludes are treating it in a common fashion; approaching it like we would any other interaction. However, what we are drawn into from the moment of our baptism is the very life of God, a participation in the life of the most holy Trinity. Prayer, then, becomes an expression of identity, of who we are as human beings and what we’ve become in Christ. Seen in such a manner, an unquenchable thirst should arise within the human heart to remain in prayer and prolong it. One desires to linger long with the Beloved. It is to choose the better part. So much of what we learn, and our taught leads only to the fragmentation of the self. The frenetic pace of life and the desperate pursuit to satisfy expectations that we have for ourselves or that others place upon us distorts who we really are. We are sons and daughters of God, heir to the kingdom of heaven, and the Spirit that dwells within the heart alone gives us the capacity to express the love God Himself has for us.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:14:45 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 237, #34 00:38:13 Callie Eisenbrandt: Father how do we learn something everyday in prayer in times of spiritual dryness? Sometimes it feels like its difficult to see what you are to learn until you look back on prayers from the past but how do you do that on a daily basis? 00:39:51 Wayne: late what page are we on? 00:41:07 Bob Cihak, AZ: p. 238, #38 or so. 00:41:35 Wayne: thnx 00:42:41 Christian Corulli: I think it would ruin the prayer if we did understand the points of dryness 00:53:39 Victor: Parental bragging rights enhanced by need for non-ending FB posts. Good points. Let kids play. “Leisure, the basis of culture”. 00:53:44 Alan Henderson: Father, on this point about children, what are your thoughts about finding a balance between - letting children have the play time as you mention, and finding them hobbies/activities that they can enjoy (and spend time with friends). I agree with you that this is a major concern in how we are shaping our kids. 00:55:50 Leilani Nemeroff: If I had it to do over, as a parent, I wouldn’t have felt obligated to run to so many activities. 00:56:06 Wayne: Reacted to "If I had it to do ov..." with 👍 00:58:07 Leilani Nemeroff: There needs to be time for more free play. 00:58:56 Victor: Playing cops & robbers as a kid helped me to warn community when gunman was outside our liturgy back in 70s. Also to help generate strategy when a priest & I were chased by robbers in Africa once. 00:59:55 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Playing cops & robbe..." with 😮 01:00:10 Ashley Kaschl: Reacted to "Playing cops & robbe…" with 😮 01:02:03 Ashley Kaschl: Father, I don’t want to totally change the topic away from good leisure and play, which is so good, but I was thinking about what you said in regards to busying ourselves or adding to our lives when we don’t need to add, and it brought to mind two quotes: the first is a monk’s reflection on his need to leave his cell for begging. He said, “Every time I leave my cell, I return less myself.” And the second is from St. Francis of Assisi, when he would daily pray, “who are You, Lord, and who am I?” I think work properly related to our state in life is meant to be shaped around our prayer time, not our prayer time shaped around our extracurricular activities. I know I fail in this all the time but I find that I have to often reorient myself when I approach prayer because I have to shed burdens I did not know I picked up to carry before I can be with the Lord in a deeper intimacy. 01:03:42 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Father, I don’t want..." with 🥰 01:05:47 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: I have come to realize that sane and holy life requires quiet time for prayer but also quiet time for psychological wholeness. Time to sort things out... 01:13:07 susan: learned so much!! 01:13:13 Victor: Thanks, Father & everyone. 01:13:17 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:13:29 Jeff O.: Thank you! -
We continued our reading of the Evergetinos this evening with hypotheses 19 and 20. Once again we find ourselves considering the fathers’ teaching on eating and our use of food. Part of the reason they spend so much time on this subject is because they understand the meaning that food has for us as human beings and that it often goes well beyond that of nourishment. We come into this world and our first and earliest experience is that of being suckled; fed at the breast of our mother and thereby comforted. On a psychological level, food can continue to have this meaning. That is not necessarily something bad. There is a form of communion that we have with each other when we have a common meal. Indeed, this is why Christ gives himself to us as Eucharist. However, in our sin, the desire for food can be driven more by the emotional needs that we have in our day-to-day struggles. The fathers understood that the psychological reality affects us spiritually.
Over and over again, we can turn to the things of this world to satisfy the longing of the human heart that God alone can fill. Christ is the Bread of Life and he alone can nourish us upon his love. Thus the fathers, especially those who entered into the desert, became acutely aware of the need to be watchful of this bodily hunger. When we lose our watchfulness or when we relax our disciplines, once again we can move towards satisfying ourselves through the things of this world.
Food can become an idol. The monks understood that even in our religiosity we can be tempted to celebrate feasts in such a way that we cast aside all that was gained through fasting. What worth is it to fast 40 days of Lent then only to turn around and eat excessively for 50 days until Pentecost?
The fathers also identified another danger. Our religious sensibilities and identity can be just strong enough that they lead us to want to maintain the illusion of holiness and discipline. The fathers warn us about the temptation to secret eating. Hiding the truth from others as well as from oneself only prevents repentance. In order to hold on to the illusion and false image of the self, we can destroy ourselves spiritually.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:16:18 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 150 00:16:49 Lilly: Reacted to "P. 150" with ❤️ 00:35:32 Forrest Cavalier: That earlier story was Evergetinos 11 in Volume 2. 00:39:02 iPhone: The YouTube channel is Athonite Audio. Audio books from the monks on Mount Athos 00:50:20 Forrest Cavalier: To know, love, serve in this life, and to be with him in the next 00:55:45 Ambrose Little, OP: Only the flamin hot ones, tho 01:07:16 Rebecca Thérèse: Is the real issue that the monk out of pride allowed people to think he was better than he was. 01:09:46 Fr Marty, AZ, 480-292-3381: I too often judge myself based on some preconceived results or image of what I or someone else should look like. Whereas, it sounds like the fruit of the soil that are my circumstances and weakness and gifts. God told Paul, where you're weak I'm strong. God can hide me in his own way that bears fruits that aren't necessarily visible results. 01:12:43 Nypaver Clan: Thank you, Father! 01:12:51 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You 01:13:22 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:13:30 Cameron Jackson: Thank you Father. 01:13:33 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father 01:13:34 Rebecca Thérèse: thank you🙂 -
The very words of St. John Climacus seem to carry us up to heights hitherto unknown and unexpected. The experience of this ascent takes place as we feel our hearts begin to burn for love of God and the desire for him in prayer.
St. John quickly moves us away from looking at prayer as a mere discipline and rather our being drawn into the depths of Mystery, the very Mystery of the Triune God. The act of praying is a blessing in and of itself. To enter into this converse with God is also to experience the action of the Spirit within our hearts, the groans of Love that are beyond words.
In all of this, St. John reshapes are understanding of the nature of prayer. It is not a discipline but an expression of our true nature in Christ. We are to become prayer, consumed by love for the Lord; anxious to show that love and treat it cheaply.
Faith, St. John tells us, gives wings to prayer. Through it we see with clarity our hearts’ desire. An urgent longing takes hold of the heart that seeks quick satisfaction; that is, seeks to take hold of the Beloved without delay.
---Text of chat during the group: 00:08:23 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 237, #26 00:12:17 iPhone: Thank you, Bob 00:12:37 Myles Davidson: Hi Father. Which edition of Isaac the Syrian’s AH will you be using? 00:13:38 iPhone: Beautiful book 00:13:51 Bob Cihak, AZ: Previous posts don't show for newcomers, so I repeat: P. 237, #26 00:14:02 Bob Cihak, AZ: Yes! “The Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian, revised 2nd Edition” published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, https://www.bostonmonks.com/product_info.php/products_id/635 . 00:14:16 Cindy Moran: I just got mine in the mail---loving the glossary. 00:14:43 Cindy Moran: Excellent...yes! 00:26:15 Anthony: I think the focus on law and duty that we see in some Catholic subcultures damages our understanding of prayer in this mystical way. At least, I think it was not healthy for me, with efforts like "storm heaven with this novena." 00:27:53 Myles Davidson: Reacted to "Yes! “The Ascetical ..." with ❤️ 00:30:43 Anthony: Another thing about legalism is that it chokes faith. 00:34:13 Anthony: Like how God said His name was blasphemy among the nation's by bad behavior of the Chosen people. 00:35:35 Kate : I have had to undo a lot of this strict legalistic teaching over the years. Sometimes I fall back into it, and I think it is actually easier for my mind to grasp this legalism rather than open myself and surrender myself to the Love of God. His Love is almost incomprehensible sometimes, but wonderfully so! 00:35:42 iPhone: Glad you mentioned corporal punishment. When I was five or six, I realized how unjust this violence was and I saw that the nun hit us hard enough to make us cry. In my desire for Justice, I resolved not to cry and I didn’t. After that I was marked as a problem child and never got a break. So, yeah, learning to trust is big 00:36:49 iPhone: The nuns meant our best, I’m sure. But something was really off with Irish Catholicism at that time (early 60s) 00:37:13 Anthony: Replying to "The nuns meant our b..." It's Jansenism 00:38:19 iPhone: I think Jansenism is applicable but not the whole story 00:39:21 iPhone: Oh this is Una. Forget to put in my name 00:55:33 Cindy Moran: It's a sort of Divine healing radiation 01:04:21 Erick Chastain: Sorry about that got in car mode 01:04:27 iPhone: Ignatius and remote preparation 01:06:53 Jeff O.: So it all starts with obedience….is this the generalmovement…recognizing that it’s not quite so linear? obedience —> humility —> discernment —> dispassion —> true prayer 01:12:22 Jacqulyn: Reacted to "Sorry about that got..." with 👍 01:13:34 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You Blessing 01:13:50 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:13:57 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father! Will be in prayer for you! 01:13:58 Jacqulyn: God bless! 01:14:03 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂Have a good retreat! 01:14:05 Nypaver Clan: Is there a particular website we should check to get the next book? 01:14:06 Jeff O.: Thank you! 01:14:10 Art iPhone: Thank you, Father! 01:14:22 Joseph: Thank you, Father. 01:14:40 Nypaver Clan: Is the next book cheaper than $70 anywhere? 01:14:59 Maureen Cunningham: On line -
Synopsis of tonight’s group on the Evergetinos- Hypothesis 18 Sections H and I:
This evening we concluded hypothesis 18 with the clarity that only St. John Cassian can bring. Cassian, though as western monk, spent many years in Egypt among the desert fathers and was able to distill their thought with great clarity for the western mind as well as the western monk. He shows us what the practice, or as he says, the vast experience of the monks over the course of time offers us. They show us that we are to avoid extremes. Fasting is not to be extended over the course of many days because the immoderate practice of fasting leads to the immoderate break of the fast and over-eating. Fasting is to be embraced, not as an end in itself, but as a means to bringing about both internal and external stability to a confused and unruly life. There is only one hard and fast rule and that is not to eat to the point of satiation. In fact, we must understand the uniqueness of each individual in regard to their experience in the ascetic life and the strength of their constitution. Not everybody can restrain the amount of food they eat to the same extent. Nor can everyone live a strictly vegan diet.
Cassian also notes that illness does not come into conflict with purity of heart. It may demand that we lighten our discipline for the sake of the health of the body. But even here we should eat in moderation and whatever the illness demands without making ourselves slaves to the assaults of evil desires. “The moderate and logical use of food ensures the health of the body; it does not detract from holiness.” Once again the fathers prove themselves to be both spiritually and psychologically astute as well as having a clear understanding of the physiological needs that we have as human beings.
Fasting in many way is starting point for us and not only serves us in the struggle for purity of heart by humbling the mind and the body, but it also reveals to us that the spiritual life must involve the whole person. We begin with the basics and our most fundamental need – the need for sustenance. A confused mind is born out of disorder, and this brings confusion to the soul, and from that purity slowly disappears. Much of the turmoil that we experience in our life arises out of the loss of peace that comes from a disordered life. However, when this order emerges within us and we begin to taste something of the peace of Christ, then something is born within the human heart. The Fathers tells us that from the light of peace a pure wind blows through the mind. To the extent that the heart can draw near to wisdom, it receives grace from God. Thus fasting may not seem to be necessary or important in our generation, but for the fathers it lays the very foundation of a life that is caught up in Christ and transformed by his grace.
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00:09:53 Nicole Dillon: Hello everyone. Happy to be able to join tonite. Thank you 🙏🏼 🥰🕊️ 00:10:46 Ambrose Little, OP: St. John’s Conferences were one of the few booksthat St. Dominic kept and carried with him. 00:24:57 Wayne: Some may be Vegan? 00:25:26 Laura: Vegan - no animal products 00:25:34 Lilly (Toronto, CA): No animal products at all 00:25:50 Forrest Cavalier: There are also fruitarians. 00:25:57 Rebecca Thérèse: Vegans won't even eat honey 00:26:17 Lilly (Toronto, CA): I've been a nut for 12 years 😅 00:26:23 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Vegans won't even ea..." with 🙄 00:26:43 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "There are also fruit..." with 🙄 00:29:14 Anthony: When the Mongols became Christian, they had a meat and milk diet. They were advised by the "nestorian" bishop to abstain from fermented mare's milk. 00:36:04 Lilly (Toronto, CA): I've always wondered if God's plan for Adam and Eve was for humanity to be vegan? Did original sin bring about the killing of animals and need for such products? 00:36:50 Anthony: Reacted to I've always wondered... with "👍" 00:41:43 Nypaver Clan: Can a disordered life cause mental disorder or does the mental disorder usually come first, then the disordered life? 00:51:42 Wayne: Replying to "I've always wondered..." I don't have the scriptural verse in Genuis that suggest we should not be eating animal products 00:56:29 Rebecca Thérèse: When I worked in mental health over a decade ago, professionals completely adopted the secularist notions towards sexuality and sexual behaviour without even any understanding of different values in this area. For example, stating that a Muslim man would have hang ups around sex because of his religion. Also, a colleague was refused a job because in an interview he said he would advise a Muslim with same sex attraction to speak to a Muslim religious leader. He was told he failed the diversity question as this was the wrong answer since religious leaders are the most conservative of people. It's considered bad for mental health to observe traditional sexual morality. 00:58:36 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "When I worked in men..." with 😢 00:58:55 Lilly (Toronto, CA): Is there an actual scriptural verse in Genesis that can clarify my previous question? 00:59:25 Forrest Cavalier: Replying to "Is there an actual s..." Gen 9:3 01:02:44 iPhone: I’ve been called a bigot for believing that homosexuality activity is a sin and that the attraction is disordered, although I do not reject or condemn this man 01:05:36 Wayne: Replying to "Is there an actual s..." yes that's it 01:06:41 Wayne: Replying to "Is there an actual s..." I checked the foot notes on this verse and did not get clarity on it 01:07:27 Nicole Dillon: Thank you Father! 01:07:53 Laura: Reacted to "Thank you Father!" with 👍🏼 01:08:05 Maureen Cunningham: Thank you, FatherI keep you in prayer for your retreat Blessing 01:08:13 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:08:17 Forrest Cavalier: So grateful! 01:08:21 iPhone: Thank you, Father 01:08:29 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father. 01:08:33 Cameron Jackson: Thank you. 01:08:38 iPhone: Bye bye -
Joy! Suddenly, as we read through the Ladder of Dive Ascent every cross, every struggle in the spiritual life, while still present, begins to fade into the background. The costs involved in this struggle pales in comparison to the blessings and the fruits that God bestows upon us, especially prayer .
St. John places before us the essentials of prayer - as well as what can undermine it. We continue to struggle to confine our thoughts and then to completely still the mind and the heart. When this takes place, prayer becomes perfection and rapture in the Lord.
This joy, however, especially among the anchorites is marked by humility. One does not expose the deepest elements of the most intimate relationship indiscriminately with others. In any case, it would be impossible to do so. As we are drawn along in faith, as we begin to encounter and experience God as he is in himself, words fail us.
What we must do is hold on to what is precious. Imperfections and anxieties can pull us away from God and our trust in his love. Furthermore the evil one is ever set on disrupting that relationship. Plotting and conniving as he is, he will stir an emotion within our heart; or influence another to engage us in such a way so as to agitate or distract. But we must keep our eyes upon the Beloved.
St. John asks, “For what have I in heaven? Nothing. And what have I desired on earth beside Thee? Nothing, but to cling continually to Thee in prayer without distraction.” Hearing these words, one can never look upon prayer simply as an activity or discipline. It is life. It is love. We are to become prayer.
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00:06:52 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 235, # 19 00:11:46 Myles Davidson: Greetings from New Zealand! (my apologies for turning up at the end of the last session… got the time zone conversion wrong). Anyway, delighted to be here. These discussions have been an immeasurable blessing to this baby Catholic. Thanking you profusely Father, and God bless you and your ministry!! 00:20:15 Myles Davidson: Do you have any tips for developing watchfulness of thoughts. Is this just a constant practice of mindfulness of thought? 00:29:37 Kate : What about the publication of saints’ diaries or journals? What would the Fathers say about this? 00:30:01 Anthony: Replying to "What about the publi..." I love this question 00:30:36 iPhone: Can you explain vigils? Is it vespers and compline? 00:31:17 Rod Castillo: My Life in Christ by John of Kronstadt ???? 00:32:42 Anthony: So the idea popular in "evangelicalism" (and now with Catholics and Orthodox) of a tell-all conversion story is not appropriate. 00:33:02 Jeff O.: Reacted to "So the idea popular ..." with 🎯 00:34:59 iPhone: This is a fascinating topic, this saying too much Thank you 00:35:31 Rebecca Thérèse: Is there any evidence of changes in attitudes towards publishing personal spiritual journals since the advent of the printing press? 00:37:00 iPhone: Why is this tell-all trend happening? Because so many people have not read the Fathers? 00:37:23 iPhone: Blogs! Immodesty personified! 00:37:30 Myles Davidson: People aren’y going to confession perhaps? 00:56:33 Anthony: Wow. So excessive chasing after goods and the obsession with trans- stuff us a war on prayer. 01:03:27 Rebecca Thérèse: There was a real antipathy towards ancestral religions by many of the founders of modern psychology and psychiatry including Freud. There are also nefarious financial and political interests in these areas 01:06:37 Bob Cihak, AZ: Too true. Too often, it's the easy way out, just prescribing drugs. 01:07:48 Nypaver Clan: An instructor I had at Duquesne U. who was a therapist, often said that the majority of her clients would have best been served in the confessional. 01:13:01 Cameron Jackson: Thank you Father. A great blessing. 01:13:05 Leilani Nemeroff: Thank you, Father! This is a Blessing! 01:13:42 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father! 01:13:43 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:13:45 David: Thank you father! 01:13:47 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:13:51 Jeff O.: Thank you! Great to be with you all. -
No one is going to take up the practice of fasting or come to “love fasting” as we have often spoken of unless they are taught by those who have deep and long experience in the practice. As we have seen the desert was very much laboratory. Those who entered into it were driven by the desire for the Lord and to remove any impediment to that desire.
Yet, we see in the writings of the Evergetinos a natural progression, an organic progression, in the practice. Their zeal for the Lord often led the monks to engage in the practice of fasting with great strictness and to radically humble the body. However, they quickly learned that to practice even that which is good in an imprudent and unmeasured fashion was dangerous. To fall into exhaustion from fasting too long could make it impossible for a person to remain awake to engage in the practice of prayer or, similarly, weaken their watchfulness of mind such that they become vulnerable to the provocation of sinful thoughts.
The desert fathers also had to learn that fasting was but an implement. It is necessary for the cultivation of the heart, but it must be accompanied by constant prayer and bear the fruit of love for God and virtue. Therefore, the Evergetinos places us in a privileged position. We are able to sit at the feet of the great elders of old and to learn from the errors and the pitfalls that can cripple us in the spiritual life as well as to be inspired by the fathers’ great sanctity. The spiritual struggle is rarely neat and the path ahead is often hidden to us. The desert fathers are shining light in an age of spiritual darkness and lack of guidance. Thanks be to God for such a precious gift.
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00:30:18 Anthony: I feel targeted.... 😉 00:36:50 Una: Does that include Irish Coffees? 00:48:47 Anthony: It's a gift to be simple, it's a gift to be free 00:48:54 Forrest Cavalier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Gifts 00:49:21 Forrest Cavalier: Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,And when we find ourselves in the place just right,'Twill be in the valley of love and delight.When true simplicity is gained,To bow and to bend we shan’t be ashamed,To turn, turn will be our delight,Till by turning, turning we come 'round right.[5] 00:56:47 Anthony: Excessive sorrow also brings exhaustion. 01:07:30 Anthony: History also shows fixation on pornography is almost always present 01:17:26 Maureen Cunningham: Thank you 01:17:40 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:17:46 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:17:50 Kevin Burke: Thank you ! 01:18:03 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father. -
There are some things that cannot be learned from books – prayer most of all! However, St. John, as so many of the Saints speaks to us from long experience as one who truly has seen Christ, knows Christ and has conversed with him deeply. Whatever might be lacking in his thought it still stokes the fire of desire within any heart that longs for God.
The desert fathers understood that God looks upon us as his sons and daughters his children, and the simplest word or groan from the heart is sufficient to express our need and love. Above all, we are to have gratitude and a spirit of compunction. With these then we approach the Lord with the intentions of our hearts.
We should not fear our own weakness or the multiplicity of our thoughts that seem to overwhelm us. St. John reminds us that He who “sets the bounds to the sea of the mind will visit us, and during our prayer will say to the waves thus far shall you come and no further.”
Prayer should be the simplest of things, but also what we hold to be most precious. We should come to see it as necessary as breathing but even more essential. The fathers tell us that we are to become prayer - our life is to be a sacrifice of praise. We are to be the very reflection of Christ. The kingdom is now, heaven is now and dwells within us. May our foolish hearts take hold of the gift that the Beloved offers us so freely.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:01:29 Bob Cihak, AZ: p. 234, # 1.5 00:05:18 Bob Cihak, AZ: We were half way thru #1. 00:05:53 Gregory Chura: Which step? 00:06:03 Gregory Chura: Thank you! 00:39:40 Anthony: So how to ignore the rational and irrational mind when praying? Just pray and eventually it happens? Because my mind gets in the way. 00:40:42 susan: Jesus [rayer 00:45:37 David: Sometimes something tactile like a chotki, rosary or stone ( have one that fits my hand from a retreat center) can help one become grounded. Others a icon or image can help set the mind and still others a candle or breathing technique can quickly return us to a calm state. 00:51:37 Wayne: Doing some active physical activity can settle the mind down before prayer. 01:03:05 Jeff O.: proverbs 24 01:03:22 Jeff O.: verse 16 01:03:24 Nypaver Clan: Verse 16 01:14:56 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:14:59 Jeff O.: Thank you! 01:15:02 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:15:05 David: Thanks Father! 01:15:06 Gregory Chura: Thank you, Father! 01:15:11 Kevin Burke: Thank you Father! -
We picked up this evening with the beginning of hypothesis 18. For weeks now we have been reading about the essential practice of fasting. The cultivation of virtue and the overcoming of the passions is impossible without it. Making use of the body to strengthen the soul is a necessity. But we quickly realize from the stories that this practice can become imbalanced; monks could fall into extremes and be tempted to engage in disciplines in ways that feed the ego – ways that make them feel holy or religious.
Yet the desert was a great teacher. The monks learned in this laboratory the subtle movements not only of the mind and the heart, but the way the demons tempt us to extremes. To fast for three or four days serves only to weaken the body and this can disrupt one’s spiritual practices as well as one make one ill. It can also, fill the heart with pride. In this, the gains made in the life of virtue can be lost in an instant.
Therefore, the fathers begin to understand that fasting must be practiced with restraint, measure, and good wisdom. We must never lose sight of the fact that our fasting is tied to Christ and who he is for us. He is the beloved, the heavenly bridegroom, and our fasting and the hunger it produces must be tied in our minds and our hearts to our desire for Christ, the bread of life. He alone satisfies the deepest longings of the human heart. Therefore fasting is not meant to kill the body, but rather re-order our desires toward their true end. Fasting then is to be done with regularity, extending no more than one day. We begin simply by not eating to the point of satiation. We give the body what is necessary, but no more. In all of this we are taught that the royal path to purity of heart is fasting and that light burdens are also profitable.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:07:34 Una: Could someone tell me what book we're using? 00:08:20 Andrew Adams: Replying to "Could someone tell m..." https://www.ctosonline.org/patristic/EvCT.html 00:08:44 Una: Thank you! 00:44:43 Anonymous Sinner: What page? 00:47:02 Una: I grew up in Ireland at the time when doctors were doctors and not pill pushers. Our Dr. O'Dolan's best health advice was to always leave the table a little hungry. He was a good Irish Catholic too. I've found following this advice more difficult that doing "heroic" fasts of ten days or so. 01:01:44 Anonymous Sinner: I thought that it was Mother Teresa who said this, about praying for 2 hours when one is busy? 01:07:41 Maureen Cunningham: Moderation in everything even in moderation 01:08:48 Anonymous Sinner: CS Lewis’s chapter on gluttony in the Screwtape Letters comes to mind 01:16:27 Maureen Cunningham: Thank you Blessing 01:16:37 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:16:39 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:16:53 Troy Amaro: Thank You Father -
As St. John Climacus comes to the end of the step on stillness and segues into the step on prayer, it is as if he is beckoning us with every word to enter into silence and to give ourselves over to prayer; not as a discipline but rather as a response to the gift of God’s love. We are so often filled with a hunger that is inexplicable to us. We seek to nourish ourselves upon the things of this world indiscriminately - only to find them sadly insufficient. We pathetically move on to something else that captures our attention. The world constantly tells us that it has “some thing” that will fill that void within our hearts.
Therefore, St. John begins to define for us the mother of virtues – prayer. Not once does John describe prayer as a discipline but rather lays out before us all that it promises. The world sees it perhaps as a waste of time or an escape from reality. However, John makes it clear that the union prayer establishes with God upholds the very fabric of the world and opens the door to reconciliation with God. It becomes the cure and the healing balm for the deepest sorrows of human existence.
Those realities that we experience during our life that are most painful are healed by being drawn into the eternal life and love of God - a God who has taken every bit of this suffering upon himself and permeates it. Prayer is our greatest treasure! May God give us the grace in the coming weeks to see and understand this.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:15:43 Bob Cihak, AZ: P.232, #77 00:17:02 Bob Cihak, AZ: As best I know, the next book, we’ll be doing is “The Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian, revised 2nd Edition” published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, https://www.bostonmonks.com/product_info.php/products_id/635 . 00:17:13 Jeff O.: Reacted to "As best I know, the ..." with 👍 00:22:47 Jeff O.: I find that the 3 o’clock hour is the hour I most regularly awake to spiritual battle…fear, attacks in dreams, etc. There have been many nights I awake during that hour feeling an overwhelming need to pray and sings hymns… I have increasingly seen the value of praying at some time during that hour. 00:38:44 Anthony: This curiousity is a misdirected "eros" 00:39:42 Ambrose Little, OP: You triggered mine, too. 00:39:47 Ambrose Little, OP: Twice 00:39:53 Andrew Adams: Mine too! 00:40:57 Kathy Locher: How can you break its hold? Internet etc 00:42:37 Anthony: Makes us nervous and anxious too 00:59:42 Lori Hatala: there yourlies also 00:59:47 Rebecca Thérèse: Where your treasure is there will be your heart also 01:20:02 Anthony: If chronological time is a creature, prayer brings us to kairos time which like the shekinah or tabor light, is untreated. Thus things in chronological past can be healed. 01:23:09 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:23:10 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father! 01:23:11 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:23:12 Jeff O.: Thank you! 01:23:32 Kevin Burke: Thank you Father! 01:23:35 Cameron Jackson: Thank you! -
One of the most wonderful things that someone said in the group tonight was: “I am amazed at how simple it all is!” And they are absolutely right in their observation. All that the fathers tell us - about the struggle for purity of heart and overcoming the passions, seeking stillness and constancy in prayer - comes down to one simple reality.
God is love and that all run but “one receives the prize without effort!” He who humbles himself will be exalted. The moment we turn the mind and the heart to God and - even prior to that - the mere existence of humility in our hearts leads God to lift us up to gaze upon him face-to-face. It is like a child who has no illusions about his self-worth or identity, but simply reaches out for the parent and is lifted up immediately in love!
It is this love that the hesychast seeks above all things; the eye of the heart is constantly turned toward and seeking the Belived. What is the one thing necessary that our Lord speaks about in the gospel? Mary sat at his feet being nourished upon his words of love and his presence. This is the better part. We so often complicate our lives and spend years and decades pursuing what the false self tells us that we need or where we will find dignity and the fullness of life. In the end, there is no ladder! There is only love and the urgent longing that makes us strive for it.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:22:52 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 230, #68 00:30:26 Anthony: There is a tension though, between a situation that is wrong which should be made right, and waiting in patience 00:33:32 Anthony: Ok, so like Abraham had a promise that took a long timevtivrealize 00:33:41 Anthony: Long time to realize 00:34:58 Anthony: Thank you 00:37:15 Fr Marty AZ 480-292-3381: be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. 1Peter 4:7 00:39:41 Julie’s iPad: It’s hard when you’re accused of something you didn’t do or say not to defend yourself. 00:51:14 Anthony: Ego is the false self. Is Despondency a false remorse? 00:53:58 Nypaver Clan: Without effort? 00:55:09 Kate : I am really blown away by the simplicity of this. How many times I have complicated the spiritual life! 00:58:02 David: I wasted years reading books and talking to people on discernment which always was a labyrinth of paths. On a retreat a old Jesuit Priest made it easy in 1 minute: Does this lead me closer to God or away from God. Our intellect often gets us lost and like a rocking chair giving us something to do but going nowhere. 00:59:41 Jeff O.: Reacted to "I wasted years readi..." with 🎯 01:02:25 Susanna Joy: There is a proverb in Islam: There are as many ways to God as there are breaths of His creatures. 01:02:34 Anthony: FYI it was college professors and lawyers who, from late scholasticism through "reformation " and spirit of vatican 2 caused us so many problems. 01:03:04 Susanna Joy: It is as simple as the next breath, to turn back to God. 01:12:57 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:13:40 Bob Cihak, AZ: The next book, we’ll be doing is “The Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian, revised 2nd Edition” published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, https://www.bostonmonks.com/product_info.php/products_id/635 . 01:14:24 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:14:25 David: Thank you Father David! 01:14:28 Jeff O.: Thank you!! Good to be with you all. 01:14:50 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father! - Laat meer zien
