Afleveringen
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It’s easy to get lost in the complexities of a legal issue and the nuances of an industry, but effective marketing should always center around one thing: how does it make people feel about your firm? This is one of many insights that Strauss Troy’s director of marketing Jennifer Gault has acquired in her more than 12-year career spanning the retail, nonprofit and construction sectors.
In this episode, Jennifer discusses how she’s strengthening brand awareness for “strategically midsize” law firm Strauss Troy, including by developing a new tagline, launching a video strategy and guiding a website redesign.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnHow Jen Gault’s experience in the retail, nonprofit and construction sectors shapes her approach to legal marketing.
Why midsize law firm Strauss Troy has focused its marketing strategy on brand awareness.
Why powerful, human-led stories are essential no matter the industry, and how to make them work for law firms.
Key considerations for redesigning a law firm’s website and branding.
How to balance firmwide initiatives with individual attorneys’ community and pro bono interests.
About our featured guestJen Gault is the director of marketing at Strauss Troy, where she leads the development and execution of marketing strategies at one of the Midwest’s top midsize firms. With over 12 years of diverse marketing experience spanning retail, nonprofit, construction and legal industries, Jen brings a wealth of knowledge and versatility to her role.
With a strong background in content marketing, graphic design and social media management, she enjoys creating compelling and impactful content that showcases the firm's values, expertise and achievements. Jen is a passionate communicator and empathetic listener who believes in the power of people to communicate and influence.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Strauss Troy
Follow Strauss Troy on LinkedIn, Facebook, X and Instagram
Connect with Jennifer Gault on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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With endless amounts of stimuli constantly grabbing for our attention, convincing audiences to read complex technical information can be a hard sell. As Kleinschmidt’s marketing and communications director, GinaRenee Autrey pursues opportunities where her engineers can blend creativity and technical expertise. Their goal isn’t to merely distribute information, but rather to inspire audiences to want to learn.
In this episode, GinaRenee discusses how engineering firms can think outside the box to captivate their audiences’ attention, including sharing Kleinschmidt’s recent success with a Shakespeare-inspired article on dam decommissioning. She also reflects on the importance of marketing engineering firms by offering clients easy-to-understand solutions to their complex problems.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWhat trends are influencing how engineering firms market their services
How prioritizing a creative execution has enhanced Kleinschmidt’s approach to thought leadership
What B2B buyers care about when choosing an engineering partner and how to align your marketing strategy to meet their needs
How to use webinars to position employees and firms as experts in niche engineering topics
How Kleinschmidt’s marketing team supports and trains its engineers to become better speakers, even when they’re nervous about appearing in front of crowds
Why you should incentivize your field teams to take pictures and videos at jobsites
About our featured guestGinaRenee Autrey is a seasoned marketing maestro with over 24 years of curating and executing comprehensive marketing strategies to elevate business goals. Her approach is results-driven, creative and ever-evolving, aligning with the rapid pace of the A/E/C marketing landscape. GinaRenee has honed a diverse set of skills over the years — from managing successful marketing initiatives and campaigns to public relations and advertising to implementing strategic projects that have fueled growth in targeted markets.
GinaRenee currently serves as program manager for the Kleinschmidt Justice, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (JEDI) Council. This role is purpose-driven and close to her heart. GinaRenee is an active member of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS) and one of the Program Chairs for the 2024 Amplify A|E|C Conference. She is also a member of the Public Relations Society of America (PRSA), and the American Marketing Association (AMA). GinaRenee began her public speaking journey on the stage at the SMPS SERC Conference in 2022. Since then, she’s had the pleasure of engaging audiences at numerous SMPS conferences and webinars, enriching her professional journey even further. GinaRenee hopes to help other marketers through these engagements to realize their full potential and view themselves as “technical experts” in their field.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Kleinschmidt Associates
Follow Kleinschmidt on LinkedIn, X and Instagram
Connect with GinaRenee Autrey on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Read Kleinschmidt’s article, “To Be or Not to Be…That is the Dam Question”
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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On paper, Julia Thomas is a one-woman band as Dean Mead’s marketing director. But in reality, she works in tandem with more than 100 unofficial marketers. Yep — attorneys and staff have a crucial supporting role to play as advocates for their firm and its brand, and Julia has made it her mission to empower them.
In this episode of Spill the Ink, Julia discusses how her approach to legal marketing creates a culture of shared responsibility and reveals what she’s learned about helping busy attorneys stay engaged with community-focused initiatives. And with 20 years of experience in global, national, regional and local marketing roles across the legal, accounting and construction sectors, she’s learned a thing or two.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWhy Dean Mead’s marketing director Julia Thomas views all attorneys and staff as unofficial marketers
About Florida-based Dean Mead, a commercial law firm founded in 1980
What a 20-year career in global, national, regional and local marketing roles in various industries has taught Julia about using internal communications to support external communications — and surviving debates with attorneys
How law firms can approach strategic partnerships in the local community and engage attorneys to participate
Julia’s advice to busy legal professionals pursuing pro bono and community work
Why thought leadership doesn’t necessarily mean writing a long, in-depth article (and, in fact, that’s often less effective)
The impact of reputable law firm awards and rankings in building credibility with prospects
About our featured guestJulia Thomas is Dean Mead’s director of marketing and business development, based in Orlando, Florida. With 20 years of experience designing, implementing and directing initiatives that support consistent internal and external communications, Julia brings a thorough understanding of marketing and business development to the firm. Leveraging her experience serving Fortune 100, national and regional companies, she is the chief marketing strategist for Dean Mead and each of its offices, departments and industry teams. Julia works closely with the president, board, department chairs and industry team leaders to develop and implement marketing and business development activities.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Dean Mead’s website
Follow Dean Mead on LinkedIn, Facebook and X
Connect with Julia Thomas on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Reaching 100 years is a commendable accomplishment for any business and should be celebrated to the fullest extent. As Dana Galvin Lancour leads Barton Malow’s centennial marketing campaign, she joins us to discuss the challenges and opportunities in marketing a legacy construction firm with deep community roots.
In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle interviews Dana, Barton Malow’s VP of branding and communications, about the strategic planning behind the firm’s 100th anniversary. They discuss how Barton Malow structures its team to facilitate cross-functional collaboration, the firm’s forward-thinking approach to thought leadership and the importance of getting internal communications right. Dana also opens up about her 17 years working in construction marketing and explains how participating in the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS) shaped her career.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnAbout Barton Malow
Insights from Dana’s rich career managing and marketing Barton Malow’s legacy brand
Do’s, don’ts and ideas when planning your firm’s anniversaries and milestones
Why Barton Malow decided to capture its history with a digital archive program
How to encourage cross-functional collaboration across multiple offices, geographies and brand families while maintaining messaging consistency
The ways Barton Malow demonstrates its values (rather than simply talking about them)
Using thought leadership to advance your firm’s strategic business goals, including how to improve buy-in with busy subject-matter experts
The importance of internal communications, especially for geographically dispersed teams
How Barton Malow is integrating artificial intelligence into its work
Why making time to actively participate in professional organizations, such as SMPS, is a worthwhile investment
About our featured guestAs Barton Malow Holdings’ Vice President of Branding and Communications, Dana Galvin Lancour provides creative and strategic direction to the Barton Malow Family of Companies’ brands while overseeing a talented team of marketing and communication professionals across North America. She brings a vision that inspires her team to continually strengthen Barton Malow’s brand, reputation and unique approach to marketing Barton Malow’s services.
Throughout her 17-year tenure, Dana has reimagined the company’s marketing strategy, helping modernize and bring the enterprise’s marketing and communications efforts to the forefront of the industry. She helped implement an email marketing platform to design and optimize targeted campaigns, redesign the Barton Malow intranet and create a vision for the first all-employee conference.
Dana is a certified professional services marketer (CPSM) and a dedicated member of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS), acquiring the prestigious Fellow designation in 2013. She was appointed as President of the Board of Directors in 2022, where she plays a key role in ensuring the organization continues to positively impact marketing and business development in the industry.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Barton Malow
Follow Barton Malow on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Dana Galvin Lancour on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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It’s as untraditional as it gets, but having a non-attorney in the driving seat of your law firm can do wonders for streamlining operations, enhancing the client experience and strengthening team culture. But it’s not without its challenges — as our guest discovered when he built a law firm from the ground up (with the help of a team of attorneys) in just two weeks.
Before Jonathan Delk was CEO of Colorado-based JVAM, he was a ski instructor-turned-digital marketer with a Master of Business Administration. In this episode, he tells Michelle Calcote King how he leveraged those skills and experiences to support and enhance the firm’s legal work by finding new ways to innovate and build a team culture that attracts talent from around the country. Jonathan also shares his take on how technology will disrupt the legal industry in the coming years.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnHow Jonathan went from ski instructor to digital marketer to law firm CEO.
About Colorado-based law firm JVAM, which believes in specialization (no one team member should do everything all the time).
The benefits of allowing a non-attorney (or non-practicing attorney) to call the shots.
The biggest hurdles of leading a firm without a law degree, including navigating the occasional, “Wait, you’re not a lawyer?!”
How to obtain buy-in as a non-attorney leader.
Why marketing skills are the special sauce for client experience and firmwide communication.
How artificial intelligence and automation will disrupt how law firms operate.
About our featured guestJonathan Delk is responsible for all facets of JVAM’s business outside the practice of law, including general management of finance, human resources, location management, information services and business development. Specializing in legal management, Jonathan works to keep JVAM at the forefront of practice management and an employer of choice in the legal field.
Jonathan attended the University of Colorado, Boulder, where he double majored in Economics and Political Science. Later, he earned a Master of Business Administration at Colorado State University, focusing heavily on finance and leadership.
Before starting his career in the legal industry, Jonathan worked in the outdoor industry as a professional ski and snowboard instructor, and a trail guide and coach for downhill and cross-country mountain biking. For years, he tallied 200-plus days a year on snow between Aspen, Colorado and Queenstown, New Zealand. Now, he takes his ski days with his wife, Erin, and daughter, Amelia.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out JVAM
Follow JVAM on LinkedIn and Facebook
Connect with Jonathan Delk on LinkedIn and X
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn.
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Michael Mantese brought a fresh perspective to Eskew Dumez Ripple, a nationally recognized architecture firm, when he joined in 2017. Coming from a New York City digital marketing and advertising agency, he brought a data-driven, people-centric approach to the firm’s marketing and content creation strategies. As marketing director, he leads the firm with the same values and elevates its brand storytelling through his photographer’s eye.
In this episode, Michelle chats with Michael about tools and strategies for cutting-edge architecture marketing, content ideation and amplification, and how marketing departments can leverage analytics and technology. Michael also shares how his photography background influences his marketing work, including ways marketers can collaborate with photographers to tell better project stories.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho is Michael Mantese is
About Eskew Dumez Ripple
The growing importance of data analytics in effective marketing
Insights into Eskew Dumez’s research-based content ideation approach
How to repurpose project case studies and proposals into omnichannel content
Ways thought leadership can support proposal writing (and vice-versa)
How Eskew Dumez leverages technology as a competitive advantage
New ideas for leveraging photography to tell better project stories
About our featured guestMichael Mantese brings a storyteller’s craft to communicating Eskew Dumez Ripple’s brand identity and mission. A writer at heart, he expands this skillset with a background in user experience design — letting market insights, data and analytics drive his decision-making, rather than assuming he knows what every audience is thinking. He augments this storytelling with a keen visual eye and maintains a particular fondness for photography and typography.
Before joining Eskew Dumez Ripple, Michael worked in the tech industry, designing digital experiences for some of the world’s biggest brands, including Marriott, Amex and City University of New York (CUNY).
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Eskew Dumez Ripple
Follow Eskew Dumez Ripple on X, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Michael Mantese on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Read the latest on EDR+
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Reports of attorneys grappling with issues like anxiety, depression and substance abuse remain alarmingly high as the legal industry continues fighting for ground in the battle against mental health and well-being issues.
This Mental Health Awareness Month and Well-Being in Law Week, we’ve invited well-being consultant Tara Antonipillai to discuss the state of the legal industry and actionable strategies law firms can implement to expand wellness programs and enact positive change at their firms.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Tara Antonipillai is
About Cultivate and The Institute for Well-Being in Law
The common mental health challenges attorneys and legal professionals experience
Practical strategies for sparking positive change at your law firm
How to spot signs that your attorneys may be struggling, and what you can do to help
Tips for leaders on fostering a supportive work environment
Why following through is the most crucial step in promoting mental health at work
What loneliness in the workplace looks like and how it affects attorneys
Whether mental health and well-being programs can influence a firm’s ability to grow business and revenue
About our featured guestThe founder of Cultivate, Tara Antonipillai's experience in professional well-being comes from a career in Big Law, a master's degree in applied psychology and ongoing research in the field. Tara is a consultant, speaker and coach who combines her unique set of skills to introduce topics that include the science of well-being, job satisfaction, communication, stress management, compassionate leadership, mindfulness, resilience, mindset, and engagement and belonging to law firms and other organizations.
Tara received her J.D. and undergraduate degree from Georgetown University and was a tax lawyer at Arnold & Porter’s DC office. She also holds a master’s degree in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. Tara is a certified leadership and performance coach through Brown University. She is also a certified yoga instructor and meditation teacher, as well as a certified Mental Health First Aid instructor.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Cultivate and The Institute for Well-Being in Law
Follow Cultivate on LinkedIn
Follow The Institute for Well-Being in Law on X, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Tara Antonipillai on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Soon after starting as an intern architect, Heather Blazi realized the job didn’t spark joy quite the way she imagined while watching HGTV as a kid. So she adjusted her path. Today, she’s the marketing director at Pfluger Architects, a design firm specializing in the education market.
Heather joins us to discuss owning your niche, market expansion and building an effective team with diverse skills. She shares why Pfluger encourages architects to use LinkedIn and how a strong brand supports proposal development, boosts employee engagement and amplifies recruitment efforts.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Heather Blazi is
About Pfluger Architects
How Heather’s architecture background influences her work as a marketer
Insights into the growing intersection between marketing and business development
The benefits of niche marketing
How to effectively leverage your niche during proposal writing and market expansion
Why use thought leadership to market your team’s knowledge, expertise and capabilities
The importance of a strong firm brand and positioning
About Pfluger’s recent successes with strategic email marketing
Why Pfluger encourages its architects to use LinkedIn
How people-centric social media posts aid in attracting prospective clients and architecture talent
About our featured guestHeather Blazi is the principal-in-charge of marketing at Pfluger Architects, a firm on a mission to inspire people to create a more meaningful human experience. With nearly 10 years of experience, Heather has planned and executed marketing initiatives contributing to Pfluger's growth and expansion across Texas. Beyond the world of architectural marketing, Heather has two daughters who bring boundless inspiration (and chaos) to her every day, reminding her of the importance of creativity, adaptability and being open to a fresh perspective. Heather enjoys volunteering and crafting anytime she can. With a heart for service, a commitment to her family and a flair for strategic thinking, she hopes to continue making a positive impact on those around her.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Pfluger Architects
Follow Pfluger Architects on X, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Heather Blazi on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Law firms are relationship-driven businesses — and not only in terms of attorney-client relationships. Aricia Gallaher’s recipe for success is to approach marketing with an understanding that nurturing connections is kingpin, both internally and externally.
Aricia is the marketing director at Chambliss, Bahner & Stophel, a full-service law firm in Chattanooga. In this episode, Aricia reflects on the lessons learned during a two-decade career and the role her servant leadership approach has played in the firm’s growth. Host Michelle Calcote King also talks with her about facilitating thought leadership, marketing technology, LinkedIn for attorneys, and maximizing industry networks like Meritas.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Aricia Gallaher is
About Chambliss, Bahner & Stophel
How to capture a distinctive brand on your firm’s website
Ideas to facilitate content development with attorneys
How strategic partnerships can benefit a firm’s presence
The benefits of thought leadership as a long-term strategy
Why law firms need to prioritize marketing automation
LinkedIn’s vital role in growing law firm business
The ways industry networks like Meritas can bolster a marketing strategy
About our featured guestWith over two decades of experience in marketing operations, communications, public relations, event management, business development, and client relationship management, Aricia stands as a seasoned and versatile professional adept at navigating the intricacies of today's dynamic business landscape. Throughout her career, Aricia has consistently demonstrated a remarkable ability to drive impactful results and foster enduring connections. She has collaborated with a diverse range of clientele, including some of the nation’s largest health systems. She has leveraged her comprehensive knowledge to orchestrate successful marketing campaigns, spearhead innovative communication strategies and execute high-profile events that resonate with target audiences. As a visionary leader, Aricia has played a pivotal role in shaping the growth trajectories of numerous organizations, utilizing her strategic acumen to identify and capitalize on emerging opportunities. Her keen understanding of market trends, coupled with her exceptional interpersonal skills, has enabled her to cultivate strong client relationships and foster long-term partnerships built on trust and mutual success.
Aricia's passion for innovation and process enhancement is evident as she diligently uncovers business opportunities, executes strategies with precision and champions customer service excellence. Her relentless pursuit of innovation and her ability to adapt to evolving industry landscapes make her a driving force in any team or organization she is a part of. Aricia consistently pushes boundaries and delivers unparalleled value in each project, showcasing her enthusiasm and commitment to excellence in marketing and business development. She holds a proven track record of achievement and a reputation for excellence, making her a trusted advisor and leader in her field. As she continues to make strides in her professional journey, she remains dedicated to driving positive change and shaping the future of marketing, communications, business development, and — most importantly — the client experience.
When offering advice to aspiring professionals, Aricia emphasizes the importance of seeking out strong mentors. She underscores the value of cultivating connections with individuals at various stages of their professional journey to gain invaluable insights and guidance.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Chambliss, Bahner & Stophel
Follow Chambliss, Bahner & Stophel on Facebook and LinkedIn
Connect with Aricia Gallaher on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Professional services buyers want to see more than simple boilerplate to inform their decision about why they should hire you. Marketing needs to be tailored as much as possible to address their specific needs and concerns.
Derek Goodroe, marketing director at Ashley McGraw Architects, talks about why he invests time and resources into carefully tailoring each request for proposal (RFP) — even if it takes hours to get it right. He and host Michelle Calcote King discuss the evolution of the architecture industry and the marketer’s role. They also cover the tools Ashley McGraw uses to expand reach and impact, including email marketing and industry conferences.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Derek Goodroe is
About Ashley McGraw Architects and the Vaysen Studio
How competition for architecture services has intensified over time
The challenges marketing departments, especially small teams, face when writing proposals
What elements make an RFP response more competitive
Best practices for crafting a tailored proposal that sells
Tips for collaborating with architects to elevate the quality of your RFP responses
How to leverage conferences as a business development and marketing tool
Better ways to use email to connect with clients and prospects
The marketing department’s influence on firm culture and employee engagement
About our featured guestDerek Goodroe is the director of marketing at Ashley McGraw Architects. He has been with Ashley McGraw since 2010 and cumulatively has over 19 years of marketing experience, including 16 years in professional services.
His strategic vision and approach to marketing and business development have been pivotal in steering Ashley McGraw Architects' growth and presence, particularly within the firm's Syracuse, New York, and Washington, DC, offices. While overseeing the development and delivery of a fully integrated marketing strategy for the firm, Derek is also dedicated to driving business development, fostering a culture of collaboration and ensuring the firm's values are reflected in every marketing message, client interaction and proposal pursuit. Derek is a member of the Upstate New York chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS).
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Ashley McGraw Architects and Vaysen Studio
Follow Ashley McGraw on Facebook, LinkedIn, X and Instagram
Connect with Derek Goodroe on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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The legal industry isn’t known for its trailblazing progress on the diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) front — but it is improving. Many law firms are integrating DEI strategy into their core business model, and the benefits of this shift are touching nearly every area, from prospecting and marketing to recruitment and talent development.
In this episode, Lee Watts joins us to talk about her new role as Director of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion at Bass, Berry & Sims. She discusses the firm’s strategy and reflects on how DEI influences a firm’s brand, reputation and competitive advantage.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Lee Watts is
About Bass, Berry & Sims
How DEI has changed over the years
DEI’s influence on law firm brand and reputation
How to be a DEI advocate within your own circle of influence
The importance of analyzing all business matters through a DEI lens
The potential impacts of emerging lawsuits targeting firm DEI initiatives
About Bass, Berry & Sims’ active programs, including its affinity groups and educational partnerships
About our featured guestLee Ashby Watts is the Director of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) at Bass, Berry & Sims. She works to advance diversity, equity and inclusion and to support the recruitment, retention and advancement of underrepresented lawyers and professionals. Lee has over 20 years of experience in the legal industry, helping law firms, attorneys and legal professionals develop and implement strategic plans.
Lee brings a keen understanding of communications and client service, having worked in legal marketing and business development for most of her career. Prior to joining Bass, Berry & Sims, she led a consulting firm where she coached, trained and consulted with hundreds of leaders. Previously, she served in a variety of roles within law firms, including as the chief marketing officer at global law firm Smith, Gambrell & Russell, LLP for nearly a decade.
Lee is a certified business development coach as well as a frequent facilitator and speaker, addressing personal branding, public speaking, marketing, diversity and inclusion. She sits on the board of the Legal Marketing Association Southeast and the nonprofit organization Kate’s Club. She is also a member of the professional women’s network CHIEF, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated, Junior League of Atlanta and ColorComm. Lee is an Ohio University graduate and earned her MBA from Georgia State University.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Bass, Berry & Sims
Follow Bass, Berry & Sims on X, Facebook and LinkedIn
Connect with Lee Watts on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Jill Davis leads the marketing department at Cline Design, an interdisciplinary architecture, planning and interior design firm in North Carolina. She recently guided the 35-year-old firm through a successful rebrand and website redesign and is constantly re-examining Cline’s marketing strategy to meet evolving client needs.
In this episode, Jill and host Michelle Calcote King discuss Cline’s marketing strategy through the years, including its 2023 rebrand. They also cover how to encourage architects, designers and other subject-matter experts to contribute to marketing initiatives that showcase the firm’s expertise and culture, such as thought leadership and social media.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Jill Davis is
About Cline Design
Why Cline decided to do a rebrand and how the marketing team approached the project
Which marketing tools are the most impactful to Cline’s strategy and why
Why invest in thought leadership and examples of common challenges
Tactics for engaging busy subject-matter experts in content creation and marketing initiatives, including thought leadership and social media
When to use your internal team to produce video content versus hiring a videographer
How to integrate a public relations strategy into your communications plan
The benefits of professional organizations like the Society for Marketing Professional Services
About our featured guestJill Davis has over two decades of expertise in marketing, including over 10 years of specializing in the architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) industry. Her journey in this sector began in 2013 with HOK in St. Louis, where she played a pivotal role in securing high-profile projects nationwide thanks to her innovative strategies and collaboration with both regional and senior leaders.
As a Principal and Marketing Director at Cline, Jill spearheads marketing initiatives and strategic planning. Her focus is on nurturing growth and exploring new opportunities that promise a bright future for the firm. At Cline, she finds daily inspiration in the creativity and insight of her colleagues, a talented team of marketers, architects, designers and branding professionals.
Jill's commitment extends beyond her professional sphere. In St. Louis, she actively participated in the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS), taking on various leadership roles. Her dedication to SMPS continued through her moves to Raleigh and Charlotte, where she serves as the 2024 President-Elect of the Charlotte chapter. Additionally, her alma mater, the University of Missouri-St. Louis, benefited from her contributions as a member of the marketing advisory board, where she mentored students and engaged in the Midwest Digital Marketing Conference (MDMC) scholarship committee.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Cline Design Associates
Follow Cline Design on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Jill Davis on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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You don’t need to work in an extremely visual industry to create video content that drives revenue and brings in new business. You don’t even need to hire a fancy, high-tech production team.
Philip Fairley helps law firms and attorneys craft and execute video marketing strategies that resonate with target audiences and yield ROI. He and host Michelle Calcote King discuss how to get started, including equipment, where to find regular content ideas, how to set up a shooting location, and the best distribution channels. They cover how law firms can use videos to create touch points with prospects and explain the different strategies behind lead nurturing and lead generation videos.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Philip Fairley is
About The Rainmaker Institute and Rainalytics®
The types of videos that work (and don’t work) for law firms
Different methods to shoot, use and distribute short-form and long-form videos
Essential video equipment to get you started
How to find content ideas
Best practices for scripting, recording and distributing videos
About our featured guestPhilip Fairley is president and owner of The Rainmaker Institute, the nation’s largest law firm marketing company that focuses exclusively on client generation, lead conversion and data analytics. During his time at Rainmaker, he co-developed Turbine®, the only software platform that automates the intake process, and Rainalytics®, the only tool that automatically measures all law firm data.
Philip holds degrees from Northwestern University, Wheaton College and Keller Graduate School, is an NCAA Division I National Debate Champion, and is a recognized expert on intake, lead conversion and innovative video marketing. His and Rainmaker’s expertise have been noted and quoted in the ABA Journal, Entrepreneur, Fortune Small Business, Harvard Management Update, Business Advisor, Chicago Tribune, Crain’s Chicago Business, and Attorney at Law.
Prior to owning Rainmaker, he was the founder and CEO of two successful companies that specialized in legal tech, cybersecurity and communications. He is married with three children and enjoys the Arizona lifestyle, mountain biking and coaching youth sports.
Rainmaker has helped more than 23,000 attorneys and law firms grow their businesses by learning and implementing its proven marketing and intake strategies.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out The Rainmaker Institute
Follow The Rainmaker Institute on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram
Connect with Philip Fairley on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on X and LinkedIn
Download The Rainmaker’s YouTube Optimization Guide
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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The architecture, engineering and construction industry is severely lagging behind in diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI). Black workers represent 13% of the industry’s workforce but only hold 7% of its jobs. Meanwhile, white workers comprise 77% of the workforce and hold over 80% of all AEC jobs.
AEC Unites, a nonprofit membership organization, was founded in 2023 to advance DEI in the industry. The organization seeks to be a resource for Black talent to identify career paths and leadership opportunities and to create sustainable opportunities for Black-owned businesses to grow and thrive.
In this episode, Michelle Calcote King invites AEC Unites Executive Director Tia Perry to discuss the organization’s mission and ongoing initiatives to help workers and businesses and reflect on the challenges AEC firms face in closing diversity gaps.
(Editor’s note: This interview was recorded in November 2023 and published in 2024. When Michelle and Tia say “this year” and “next year,” they’re referring to 2023 and 2024, respectively.)
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Tia Perry is
About AEC Unites and the organization’s mission
AEC Unites’ ongoing initiatives, including for Black talent, Black-owned businesses and student populations
DEI issues that are prominent in the AEC industry
What resources exist for workers and businesses
How diversity gaps can impact a company’s safety culture
How to improve hiring, advancement and retention practices
Impacts of unconscious bias on hiring and promotion practices, including during succession planning
About our featured guestA diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) leader with over 17 years of association experience, Tia Perry is tasked with bringing the vision for AEC Unites to life by driving equity and inclusion for Black talent and Black-owned businesses in the architecture, engineering and construction community.
Tia led DEI initiatives as a director at Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC), providing consultative support and leadership to ABC chapters and member companies. Perry began her association career in 2015 with the Transportation Intermediaries Association.
Tia is an enthusiastic mentor, volunteer and training partner in skilled trades education with the D.C. Construction Trades Foundation and is a youth basketball coach. She earned a bachelor’s degree in psychology from Old Dominion University and recently completed the diversity, equity and inclusion certificate program at the University of South Florida. Perry is also a certified unconscious bias trainer through FranklinCovey.
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Running a business is hard. Now try being a lawyer on top of it all.
Having spent 20 years helping law firm owners and senior partners implement strategies that turn their firms into thriving businesses, Gary Mitchell has a treasure trove of knowledge and advice to share about the subject. He and host Michelle Calcote King discuss the many facets of running an effective law firm business, including best practices for efficient management and streamlining operations, leadership excellence, succession planning, and employee engagement and retention.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho is Gary Mitchell
About OnTrac Coach and its coaching programs
Advice for managing partners on how to amplify their impact
Why standardized processes and systems are crucial to law firm growth, scaling and profitability
Common challenges law firms face with employee engagement and how to overcome them
When is the best time to think about succession planning
How to successfully transition lateral hires (and mistakes to avoid)
Common onboarding mistakes that can decrease legal talent retention
About our featured guestGary is a highly regarded author, business coach and consultant specializing in professional service firms and small businesses. With over 18 years of experience, he helps his clients unlock their full potential and achieve personal, financial and professional freedom.
Gary's approach leads his clients to unparalleled success in growth and profitability using proven strategies that encompass business development, HR, leadership, management, marketing, processes, systems, and time and organizational management. He continues to contribute to several business publications and journals and is frequently called upon to guest appear on business podcasts. Gary hosts his own podcast, “The LawBiz™.” He can be reached at [email protected]
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out OnTrac Coach
Follow OnTrac Coach on Facebook and LinkedIn
Connect with Gary Mitchell on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Listen to Michelle answer questions about PR for law firms on The LawBiz™ Podcast
Gary’s book recommendation: “Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones”
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
Transcript[00:00:00] Gary Mitchell: If growth is important, if profitability is important and you do nothing else, do this well.
[00:00:07] Announcer: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now let's get started with the show.
[00:00:24] Michelle Calcote King: Hey everyone, I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
As we all know, running a business isn't easy, much less when you do it alone. And with so many plates to juggle, managing a law firm can leave many law firm leaders stretched very thin. And the industry is evolving so quickly that many law firms find themselves falling behind even as they're working to catch up. So we're going to talk to the perfect person to discuss this topic.
His name is Gary Mitchell. He's an author, business coach and consultant specializing in professional services firms. Gary Mitchell. And he also hosts “The LawBiz Podcast," which I've been very lucky to be a guest on. Gary offers several coaching programs for law firms through his business, OnTrac Coach. We're excited to pick his brain today. So welcome, Gary.
[00:01:18] Gary Mitchell: Thank you, Michelle. It's great to do this reciprocally.
[00:01:20] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah it's fun. I'm excited about this.
Well, let's start with telling me a little bit about what you do at OnTrac Coach and your background.
[00:01:27] Gary Mitchell: Michelle, well, it's interesting how I got started with coaching lawyers — initially lawyers. I've always kind of been predicated to a career helping people. I found myself being a campaign manager for a lawyer. I had a lot of political experience and background, and I got a call one day and this lawyer candidate needed some help. And so I went and met with him and he was green. I mean, a coach's dream, really, because blank canvas and he was very eager to learn. And so I ran his nomination. He won the nomination, which in the U. S. is kind of like a primary, right? To get to be the candidate. This is on a federal level. So I became his campaign manager reluctantly for the federal campaign. And I swear I had the greatest 'Aha' moment of my life. Instead of being the person, now I was the person behind the person. And to watch him grow and evolve and become an amazing candidate partly due to what I gave him was like, "Wow!"
And during that experience, one of his friends came up to me after a campaign meeting and — a former lawyer — and said, "Gary, I've seen what you've done. You have this ability to help highly intellectual people with skills they're not accustomed to. You should look at the legal industry."
And after I picked my job off the floor, I began about nine months of research. I'm in Vancouver. There wasn't anything going on here. So I looked at what was going on in the U. S. and business coaching was already a fact of life back in 2006. Not so much in Canada. But then serendipity came in and the first chapter of the Legal Marketing Association outside of the United States was formed right here in Vancouver.
[00:03:10] Michelle Calcote King: Oh, very cool.
[00:03:11] Gary Mitchell: Yeah, it was. I mean, it just fell into place. I'm in the midst of my research. I went and met a number of people who I'm still in touch with. In fact, many colleagues, and then I got on the board and then a couple of months later, my first article written for a legal publication. And we spoke about this when you guested on my podcast. My first article was about media relations and lawyers. So it all just came into place. So then I started coaching lawyers and I haven't looked back.
What I do at OnTrac in a nutshell, I help my clients get more freedom. More freedom in their career with fulfillment and control, more financial freedom, more life freedom. And I do this through helping them with BD, HR, leadership, marketing, and growth and profitability. That's in a nutshell what I do.
[00:03:59] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, that's great. I know a small business owner myself, and I know law firms have very unique challenges they face.
On your website under your managing partner growth program, you mentioned small yet strategic and targeted improvements. Can you walk me through what that means and give me examples of that?
[00:04:19] Gary Mitchell: Well, first of all, what I do in the Managing Partner Growth Program is it's really focused on the managing partner. His or her role, and what impact they can have within the whole firm. So I start out with a SWOT analysis with them, not the firm. With them individually. So we look at strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. And I've been around long enough to remember when the old school of thoughts around SWOT was, you know, you pick up your socks with your weaknesses, you improve them.
And then along came a gentleman by the name of Steve Jobs and turned that theory upside down. His philosophy was forget about your weaknesses, focus on your strengths, become a master and build a team around you that fill in the holes left by your weaknesses. This has been a very successful approach.
So I help law firm leaders identify what are their strengths, then help them build a team around them. Right? So that's leadership. And to fill that out, building the team is critical. And also very important is balancing their time and efforts between managing the firm and managing their own practice. In most cases, these people are still serving their own clients, not to mention growing their own practice. It's like they have two full-time jobs. So that's a big part of it.
Small improvements. My philosophy has always been, it's incredible what you can do when you make small, incremental improvements because they compound. When we think of change, and people fear change because "Oh my God, it's so much, so big." It all happens at once. Most effective change happens slowly, methodically, strategically, in small steps. And I remember having one client tell me after we worked together, and I think he posted in a testimonial, "Gary showed us how to make these incremental steps, which had a profound impact once they were compounded."
So those are on, like, leadership, team building, delegating, client management, and communication, and workflow and process. Those are some of the areas making just simple tweaks, like team communication and workflow. When there's a team of lawyers and paralegals working together, [who are] meeting regularly and during that time, it was still Zoom because we were still in the pandemic, right? But meeting, communicating regularly, where are we at with this file? What are next steps? So everybody's, you know, talking together. And it's not just law firms, it's in general business, communication can be one of the biggest challenges, and it isn't that difficult. The solutions are simple. So those are some of the things, and those all impact culture ultimately.
[00:06:56] Michelle Calcote King: I love it.
[00:06:57] Gary Mitchell: Yeah.
[00:06:57] Michelle Calcote King: Well, I'm glad you mentioned processes because I wanted to ask, what are some of those systems and processes that you see in law firms that might hold them back from growing the business?
[00:07:08] Gary Mitchell: Well, actually, that's a funny question, I think, because it's the lack of the processes that hold them back in business. So instead of focusing on negative, let me turn it around and focus on positive. It's part of my DNA. I guess maybe how I found myself to be a coach. And I'll use a client example. Two co-founders, two women co-founders of a firm, now it must be 15 years back. I worked with them just after their first year. So they're still in startup, but they made some mistakes. They got some successes. They got some wins. I helped them with some small systems and processes, and then they took what little I, and I mean little, what little advice I gave them, and they actually were guests on my podcast recently, they systemized everything, templated everything, processes everything, streamlined everything. So workflow, you know, when you're doing a task over and over again, and this has been-- they've been talking about this since I started coaching in 2006, is create templates and systems so you can plug-and-play. New employees come in, new people come in, whether they be lawyers or paralegals, and there's a system and a process, and everyone's doing the same thing. Well, lo and behold, COVID hit, and then both of them went on mat leave, and one had a very serious health scare. And because those systems and templates were in place, they not only survived through these challenging times, they've continued to thrive. And, talk about freedom, they're both parents, they're both moms, and they leave their office every day at 4:30, and they don't work weekends. That's because of the systems and processes, right?
When I'm working with clients, I ask them, "Have you ever seen the movie, The Founder?" It's the story about McDonald's. It's the story about the guy after the founders came along and put the systems and processes in place, which allowed them to grow in scale. So it's not only, yeah, I know everybody talks about growth, it's simplifying things for everyone. For the lawyers, for the paralegals, most importantly, for the clients.
[00:09:09] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. McDonald's is that great example of how systemizing things and, you know, developing those processes can really boost a business. You go into a McDonald's anywhere and you know exactly what you're going to get.
[00:09:23] Gary Mitchell: I definitely have had pushback with lawyers over the years. "What are you comparing us to hamburgers?" No. Your product, your widget is you, the lawyers, the paralegals, your people, your talent. So yeah, okay. I'm kind of comparing you to hamburgers because that's their widget, that's their product, but I think to date they are still the most successful franchise on the planet and it's because that's what they did better than anyone else. And then everyone who came after them copied them, right? And it's making sure that everyone's on the same page, right? I don't mean creating robots. We tell people to have personality and their own styles, right? But when you're doing something over and over and over again, and people are recreating the wheel every step of the way, no one wins, especially the clients. If your clients aren't happy, if your clients aren't really over the moon with your services, you're not going to stay in business very long. You know, I get pushback, but when I use analogies, Michelle, I try to keep things where people can relate, right? Everybody knows McDonald's.
[00:10:27] Michelle Calcote King: Well, the example I often use when I get that pushback from attorneys about, you know, highly customized and things like this is sort of I think there's a book out there called "The Checklist Manifesto," and it's surgeons. So these are surgeons who stabilize their success rates, their infection rates went down, their success rates went up when they just used checklists. So yeah, no profession can't be improved with some sort of process and templates and checklists.
I noticed that you also help firms with employee engagement. Can you tell me a little bit about the issues that some law firms face around engagement?
[00:11:06] Gary Mitchell: I'm not going to call out lawyers as being the only demons in this area. It's humans. It's humans.
[00:11:12] Michelle Calcote King: Very much so. Yeah.
[00:11:13] Gary Mitchell: We all want to press the easy button. We want the one-size-fits-all, right? It's easier. No. There is no one-size-fits-all. There's two things I would say: no one-size-fits-all and no sink-or-swim. And this is where they drop the ball and all businesses drop the ball. Like, when you put a puzzle together, Michelle, not one piece is exactly the same. And yet some people will still try and force those pieces in to make the puzzle come together. That's HR, that's team building, that's organizing any group of people beyond one. Once you go beyond one, you've got to look at individual strengths.
And another thing is empowering and engaging. I'm going to give you an example. A senior partner I worked with recently was coming back to the practice after leave, and he was looking for more fulfillment in his career. And it's ironic what happened because through — I spoke about delegating earlier — through the constant, constant broken record of me on coaching calls telling him about delegating and he got it and he built a reputation within the firm as the partner to go to. The associates talk, right? He engaged them, he empowered them, he mentored them, he got them involved in the client relationships, he took them to client events. So, now the associates, instead of being, you know, in the corner at their desk, doing just the grunt work, never having any face time with clients, never having any part of the relationship, are now fully engaged. Well, how hard do you think it was for him to build his team after that?
[00:12:53] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:12:53] Gary Mitchell: He was like a magnet. And that is, again, that's not rocket science. That's pretty simple. And fortunately, his firm remunerates for that. For leadership, for mentoring. And so, while his individual numbers declined, his group numbers flourished. And of course, because he's spending more time. Now what happens there, clients are getting better value because you've got a second-year, third-year or fourth-year associate doing the work that previously might have been done by a partner hoarding the time and hours. So the client's happy. You've got an associate who is learning and growing in their career and in a part of the process, so they're winning. And the leader, the partner's winning because his group is winning. So the firm is winning, right?
[00:13:42] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:13:43] Gary Mitchell: So, I mean, I just think there's a couple of simple things. Employee engagement is, I'd say, in the top five where improvements made to have astronomical positives and that's large, large or small firms. I've seen it in both.
[00:13:57] Michelle Calcote King: I can definitely understand that. And it's not a lawyer's fault. Often it's due to the nature of how firms are structured, the traditional nature of workflow within a law firm. It doesn't lend itself to collaboration very well there. So yeah, that's really important.
[00:14:13] Gary Mitchell: Part of what I do sometimes is encourage people to follow their own instincts. And his own instinct was this is where he wanted to go and I kept telling him, "That is the most successful business model." Okay, you're here — and this could be a practice group, or industry group, or the entire firm. You're here, and then you build your organization and team wide and deep, right? And so, gradually in that process, you're doing less and less of the actual legal work. You always want to be doing some of it, right? Be frontline working with clients, but less and less and focus more on the training and grooming of your people and the client management as well, making sure the clients are happy. But he had an inclination to go that way. So that helps. And as you say, most firms are not structured that way. So it's a kind of tug-of-war, right? Another challenge.
[00:15:08] Michelle Calcote King: You know, the other challenge that many law firms are facing today is succession planning, and I noticed that you help firms with that, which I can see as a critical area and something they would need help with. So when is the right time firms should be thinking about succession planning?
[00:15:25] Gary Mitchell: I'd say it's never too early to start thinking about succession planning. It should be a perpetual, constant motion. Let's use a large firm, for example. It's more bureaucratic. You've got more owners, more voices, more. But there should be a timeframe and a revolving system, in my opinion, where, you know, a managing partner is coming in for a set mandate. Because from my experience also, it's rare that a managing partner wants to stay in that position for the rest of their career.
[00:15:56] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:15:57] Gary Mitchell: I've actually worked with managing partners where they transitioned back to just managing, growing their own practice after several years at the helm. Again, there is no one-size-fits-all, but consider a time limit or a term everything's flexible and the process is always moving so that when that managing partner is at the helm, they're already starting to identify and groom upcoming leaders that demonstrate the skills, demonstrate the willingness and interest in taking on leadership — not everyone does, not everyone does, right? Again we're not all the same. Firms, especially, again, they try to do everything the same for everyone. And it's like, they don't spend enough time working with the individual strengths of people, and that's how you build the most successful teams, right?
I could use all kinds of sports analogies, but there's probably a lot of people maybe listening that are not that into sports so I'll spare them. But it's like putting a sports team together, right? Not everyone is the goalie. I'm using hockey. Hockey is going on right now, but the biggest mistake is not planning at all. That's the biggest mistake.
And you know, in smaller firms, I remember one time-- Like you say, when is the right time? I would say for a smaller firm owner, when you start to be thinking about your next phase of your career whatever you want to call that. You might call it retirement. You might call it next phase. You might call it semi retirement. Again, your choice. When you start thinking about it. That's the time to start planning.
I remember having a client years ago and she approached me and we got started and she said, "Well, I have applied to become a provincial court judge." In Canada, you don't get elected. You apply through the process. "But that's not going to happen. So let's get started on this." Well, nine months later, it happened and there she is. And we had just begun that process. Now, she didn't walk away empty-handed. She was able to sell some of her book but had we started working, say, three years prior to that, she would have increased the value of the firm, she would have been able to put all those systems processes in place, templates to make the firm more profitable, scale it up, make it more attractive for an outside buyer, and what we were doing at the time was actually grooming from within for someone to take over succession. In her case, it wasn't bad news. She wanted to become a judge. So she became a judge.
But like really, I mean, I look at so many situations where the small firm owners walk away. And like, they haven't planned ahead long enough to put those systems-- What somebody is looking for as an outside buyer is a turnkey business. As much as possible, they want to come in and take over, do the client work, and it's already a well-oiled machine. And if you're just starting to think about it Tuesday and you want to retire next month, that doesn't leave you enough time.
[00:18:56] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. And that all ties in with the systemizing the processes. That's all critical.
[00:19:04] Gary Mitchell: Everything does. Growth. Profitability. Everybody's talking about revenue. Most business owners focus everything on revenue. What about profitability, right? If you keep growing your revenues, but your profitability is not increasing, where are you going wrong? Well, in most cases, you don't have those systems and processes and templates right there.
[00:19:26] Michelle Calcote King: Exactly.
[00:19:27] Gary Mitchell: They're checks and balances, right? They help people at all levels of the firm do their jobs better, which in turn makes the clients happier.
[00:19:36] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, absolutely.
So we've been talking about transition in the selling process with firms. What are some of the things firms need to think about if they're looking to sell?
[00:19:45] Gary Mitchell: First of all, I'm glad you asked that the way you did because that is not my area of expertise. So, when it gets to that point, or before that point actually, I will introduce them to a firm broker and that firm broker will really help them with the negotiation part. My job really is to get their firm to the place of being a well-oiled machine, turnkey operation, profitable. And in turn by doing that, I help that lawyer or the team increase the value of the firm. But then I pass it off to the broker on the negotiation side. I'm still involved in the transitioning, right? Working with the leaving owner and the incoming owner, but the negotiation part I will leave up to other experts.
[00:20:31] Michelle Calcote King: Well, I think what you're doing is the real critical part, which is getting it ready for it to be a sellable product. Without that, you know it's hard to even talk about a sale.
You used the word transition and I wanted to talk about transitions with lateral hires. Why is thinking about lateral hires and how to transition them into the firm important?
[00:20:52] Gary Mitchell: Wow.
I think it's the number one missed growth strategy out there right now and has been for some time. If you look at how much firms spend time, money, energy, money — I'll repeat it again, money — on marketing and trying to get new clients, it's astronomical.
When you are able to attract a high level lateral partner with a book of business — a solid book of business — it makes no sense to me why you would let them sink or swim and flounder away when they arrive at your firm.
There was an article recently written about this. I wish I remembered the name. It was actually the most amazing kind of play on when you see firms who get this right, their profitability increases, like, incredibly at a much higher rate. And the rep for recruiting and retention, which goes back to recruiting, which goes back to growth. I mean, it just, again, like, I see it as an incredible growth opportunity.
Let me tell you this funny story. I was working with a client and I worked with him years ago when he ran his own firm and then he got eaten up by a major national firm, and then he moved to a new major national firm. And we were out for lunch one day and he was telling me about his onboarding experience, his first day — and this goes to what law firms are not getting right. This was a high-profile partner with a million-dollar book. Okay? A million. Coming over and his clients were extremely loyal. They stayed with him from his own firm, moved to the national firm, and they were following him to the next national firm. So that was like a guaranteed million added to the revenues of the firm. That's not shabby, right? And he knows what he's doing. You don't have to provide any training in his field or his lawyering, all of that. But they just let him show up and find his own way around his office.
He said that his assistant was one floor below him. No one, you know, even showed him-- and he has a really good sense of humor. He goes, "No one even showed me where the washroom was." And I mean, that... "Wow" is right, but that happens all the time. So what do you do? The opposite of that. The managing partner greets that new partner at the front door. Day one. "Welcome to the firm." [The managing partner] walks them around the office, introduces them to the other influential or, you know, higher-ranked partners. "This is Bob. This is Sue. It's their first day. We want to welcome them to yada, yada, LLP." They take them to their office, they introduce them to their support staff. These are simple things, right?
That's one thing, but the most critical thing that will also shorten — and this is why it's so important for growth — when that person comes in, it usually takes about two years — this is statistics that have been out there. I don't know where they are, but they have been out there for a long time — almost two years to make them profitable because the large investment-- When you're looking at that high-level, what firms are investing in recruiting, the recruiting fees that they pay to get that, signing bonuses, whatever else it is, the outlay before any money starts coming in is astronomical. So to leave them alone and sink or swim, doesn't make any sense to me at all. Provide support for pennies on the dollar, get them building those internal relationships from day one. Their other partners, the associates, their team, right?
This analogy I think everyone can relate to. Think about if you ever moved when you were a child and you had to go to a new school.
[00:24:29] Michelle Calcote King: Right. Yeah. Right.
[00:24:32] Gary Mitchell: New teacher, new classmates, new curriculum, new policies, new procedures, new everything. That's a lawyer coming to a new firm. So you let them just go or you make them feel a part of it from day one. And again, what I do and work with those lawyers is, step one, is those internal relationships. Theoretically they've already done some well enough to be able to bring some or all of their book with them. So current clients wouldn't be the priority. The new internal relationships with the partners and associates is step one. And then, you know, getting to know the policies, procedures, things like that.
And I've had some amazing stories about transitions. Positive, very positive, where those two years has been cut to less than one year.
[00:25:19] Michelle Calcote King: Oh, that's huge.
[00:25:20] Gary Mitchell: And they're not only profitable, but they're becoming leaders and practice group leaders.
[00:25:24] Michelle Calcote King: Oh, wow.
[00:25:24] Gary Mitchell: It's amazing what's possible, right? Like, if growth is important, if profitability is important. And you do nothing else, do this well. I think that's what the article says, too. Do this well. You know, we can't do everything, right Michelle? Like, you know as well as I do being a business owner, we'd like, we have a likable, like to-do list. Check, check, check, check, check, check, check.
[00:25:47] Michelle Calcote King: So long.
[00:25:48] Gary Mitchell: Right? And it's like, okay, strategically if I can only do one thing, what would it be? I would say, especially because the craziness that we've gone under the last few years with the pandemic, with the great resignation, generational changes, and the--
[00:26:05] Michelle Calcote King: The rise of AI and tech.
[00:26:09] Gary Mitchell: Exactly.
[00:26:09] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. It's just such a disruptive time. Yeah.
[00:26:12] Gary Mitchell: It's a hugely disruptive time, but remember what this is all about. Law firms are people. People are the most difficult part of any business. Technology's easy. Easy peasy. Press a button. Learn a new app. Blah, blah, blah. I don't want to get into AI. Again, I am not an expert. I don't know if there is one yet, but I'm definitely not.
But the people part, if you focus on this one area for growth, you know, and you get a rep, guess how many unhappy lawyers are out there.
[00:26:41] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Gary Mitchell: And you make it a warm and fuzzy place? Lucrative. The culture is amazing, people supporting each other, they collaborate, the clients are over the moon? The impact and repercussions are incredible.
[00:26:56] Michelle Calcote King: That's fantastic, yeah. And I can see how that would be a very underlooked area for firms. So, yeah, the upside would be great.
Well, I love to end conversations with sort of a bigger question. So, tell me, are you reading anything interesting right now?
[00:27:12] Gary Mitchell: As a matter of fact I'm listening to...
[00:27:15] Michelle Calcote King: Oh yeah. I do a lot of audiobooks, too. Yes.
[00:27:18] Gary Mitchell: Well, it's like, I don't know about you but having time to just sit and read.
[00:27:24] Michelle Calcote King: Very hard.
[00:27:24] Gary Mitchell: And I think there's a lot of people out there [like that]. So the new audiobook that I'm listening to is called "Atomic Habits."
[00:27:31] Michelle Calcote King: Ah, good one.
[00:27:32] Gary Mitchell: It's interesting that you asked me because everything we've talked about is about new habits. And remember when you asked me at the beginning of this, what do I do? That's such an open question and it's like, well, I do a lot of things, but what does it come down to? It comes down to me teaching my clients new habits and then holding them to account to keep them up long enough where they become second nature.
And those new habits sometimes are uncomfortable at the beginning, as clients will tell me. But they do them long enough, and they not only become comfortable, they can become part of their day. And so I'm loving this book. Everyone should read this book.
[00:28:12] Michelle Calcote King: It's a great one.
[00:28:12] Gary Mitchell: I mean, the analogies-- Yeah. The analogies he uses it's brilliant.
And I love recommending books to other people. So that would be one I would recommend: "Atomic Habits."
[00:28:22] Michelle Calcote King: Same to me. That's my go-to. If I have a problem, I'm like, there's a book to solve this somewhere.
[00:28:27] Gary Mitchell: And it's funny because since I've posted about that everyone, all of my colleagues that have heard of it, "Oh my God. I've read it. It's such a great book. You might also want to listen to this one."
[00:28:37] Michelle Calcote King: Love it.
Well, thank you so much. We've been talking to Gary Mitchell of OnTrac Coach. So Gary, if people want to get in touch, further this conversation with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
[00:28:48] Gary Mitchell: I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on social, mostly LinkedIn, but you can email me directly at [email protected]. But happy to be with you, Michelle, and I look forward to continuing our conversation at some point down the road.
[00:29:05] Michelle Calcote King: Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you.
[00:29:09] Announcer: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click “Subscribe” to get future episodes
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Angels sing when marketing and business development (BD) work in harmony. Together, the departments highlight the business’s value at every stage of the buyer’s journey.
Michelle Hamilton, VP of Business Development at Vessel Architecture, talks about how BD and marketing complement each other and how to make genuine connections that go beyond transactional interactions. She and host Michelle Calcote King discuss industry trends, including artificial intelligence (AI) and LinkedIn videos. Hamilton also opens up about her background as a glass sculptor and her recent ADHD diagnosis.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho Michelle Hamilton is
About Vessel Architecture and the architecture firm’s work
Trends in business development and marketing
How business development and marketing intersect and complement each other
Tips for meeting and connecting with architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) professionals
How to use social media to deepen business relationships and create talking points
How Hamilton balances her glass sculpting passion and her work at Vessel Architecture
How Hamilton navigates ADHD in the workplace as a C-Suite professional
About our featured guestMichelle Hamilton is Vice President of Business Development at Vessel Architecture, a commercial firm renowned for crafting spaces where people flourish. Michelle's dedication to connecting people, places and ideas through creative, collaborative solutions has been a driving force throughout her 29-year career. As a leader in business development, she expertly manages strategic deployment and national relationships for senior living, multifamily, church and corporate sectors. Her skill set includes strategic planning, marketing, contract negotiations and account growth, all in pursuit of her mission to create architecture that deeply enhances the bond between spaces and its users.
Beyond her professional accomplishments, Michelle is an active contributor to her community. She serves as a local board director for CREW St. Louis, an international commercial real estate organization. Michelle's commitment to empowering the next generation of professionals is also evident in her mentorship of young women embarking on careers in commercial real estate through service as the board liaison to the Young Professionals Committee and Lindenwood University Women's Leadership Board.
In her downtime, Michelle channels her creative spirit as a glass sculptor. Her works are featured in books, museums, and private and public collections nationwide. See them on her website, Zaximo Studios. An energetic mother and wife, Michelle balances her artistic pursuits with her passion for health, including pilates, vegetable gardening, an appreciation of bourbon, and the practice of transcendental meditation. Reach out to her at [email protected].
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out Vessel Architecture
Follow Vessel Architecture on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Michelle Hamilton on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
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Many businesses have spent the past year navigating the increasing use of artificial intelligence in the workplace. Law firms are especially cautious due to lingering questions about the legal implications of using AI, particularly related to confidentiality and privacy concerns. Meanwhile, many professionals are exploring how AI might enhance their expertise and simplify workloads.
Jessica Aries is one of them.
Jessica is a seasoned legal marketer and founder of By Aries, a digital marketing agency specializing in the legal sector. She frequently talks about how law firms can use AI tools to enhance their operations, sharing her insight on social media and at various conferences. In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” Michelle Calcote King invites Jessica to reflect on the evolution of AI tools for legal marketers. They discuss the risks and best practices professionals should keep in mind when using them. They also talk about their favorite AI tools and analyze how AI is changing before our eyes.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho is Jessica Aries and what is By Aries
The evolution of AI tools, particularly for law firms
How your firm can strategically leverage AI to improve workflows
The risks and drawbacks of using AI as a legal professional
Best practices for AI writing prompts
Why smart legal marketers make the AI to ask them questions
The implications surrounding watermarked AI content
A shortlist of Michelle and Jessica’s favorite AI tools
About our featured guestJessica Aries, J.D., LL.M., is a lawyer turned digital marketer who helps lawyers simplify their digital marketing to build consistent visibility and profitable practice. A former in-house legal marketer at some of the largest and fastest-growing firms in the world, Jessica understands the pressures lawyers face and strives to help them perfect their digital presence to build relationships, develop new opportunities and transform their approach to marketing in an easy and approachable way.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out By Aries
Follow By Aries on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube
Connect with Jessica Aries on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
Transcript[00:00:00] Jessica Aries: AI is gonna amplify the type of marketer you are, going to amplify the type of lawyer you are. So if you're one who's going to cut corners, it's going to really exacerbate that. But if you're someone who's really going to push the tool and challenge the tool, it's going to amplify that, too, and make you a better marketer.
[00:00:21]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show.
[00:00:38] Michelle Calcote King: Hey everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
As everyone knows, artificial intelligence has been the topic of conversation in 2023. We're all sort of navigating what it means for our jobs and how best to leverage these tools. For law firms, it can be somewhat of a tricky conversation. But some people in the field have taken a lead on this and have embraced AI and are doing really interesting things with that.
Jessica Aries is one of those people. I was really fortunate to attend a session of hers at the Legal Marketing Association Midwest Regional Conference, and she was full of useful tips. Welcome to the show, Jessica.
[00:01:28] Jessica Aries: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:31] Michelle Calcote King: I know you're a former attorney and you started your agency after a decade of working in-house at law firms. So let's start with you telling me a little bit about who you are and your firm.
[00:01:41] Jessica Aries: By Aries launched really in the pandemic when, like many, I was furloughed and had to figure it out in a hot second. I actually put up a LinkedIn post that went semi-viral within our industry where I basically just put up like a headshot and said like, "Hey, I'm a COVID-19 job seeker." And it resulted in this influx of leads to my now agency. At the time it was me working in digital marketing because there was a real gap in the market at the time. As you remember, many firms hadn't quite fully embraced digital, maybe not social media the way that they had, and social media really built my business. So a lot of what we do is social media strategy and social media marketing. We focus predominantly on LinkedIn, but we have migrated into video marketing lately and doing a lot more around new platforms, emerging platforms like TikTok and Reels and Facebook Reels. So really exploring those areas. And with that has come this need for really learning what AI can do to kind of advance and make simpler the the workflows that we had in our agency.
That's really how I got into AI. I was just looking to make things faster for us and find a way to really elevate what we were already doing and I thought, why not test it out? That's another algorithm. We're playing with the algorithms all the time. Why not test another robot? So that's how it came about. And so my agency predominantly does that. We work with lawyers and law firms to enhance and perfect their digital brands online using social media strategies and video marketing strategies.
[00:03:10] Michelle Calcote King: I love that. I follow some of your videos. We do the same thing. We like to walk the talk and really do what we do for our clients for ourselves and when people ask me how we've grown, I say, "Well we do the same kind of marketing that we do for our clients," and that's really built our reputation and helped us grow, but I think you do a really good job of that. I followed you on LinkedIn for a while and your videos are especially very good. I know the law is a more conservative industry, but the way people communicate is very much so driven by a lot of these kind of trends from TikTok and things like that. My employees forced me to get on TikTok and to learn the styles more and understand, you know, cause videos are really kind of taking over social media. So yeah, love that.
So let's talk about AI tools. I know AI has been around for a while, right. And I think that was a point you made in your presentation. This stuff isn't new. It's actually, you know, being more and more incorporated, but it sort of feels like it came out of nowhere this year. How are you seeing the industry take on AI? What have been the reactions you're seeing?
[00:04:11] Jessica Aries: Well, I think like anything new, there's always a lot of fear, a lot of trepidation. Like, "Am I going to get myself into trouble with my bar license?" I mean, I actually have people who ask me, "Do you write policies for firms?" And I'm like, "Actually, I try to avoid that," just because I worry about the risk of it looking in some way, shape or form in the future like I'm giving some sort of legal advice. So I'm very cognizant of the fact that in our industry in particular we have to be careful on what we're adopting and what we're taking on and how we're using client data, how we're using firm data. For me in particular, I really wanted to explore just how we internally in my agency could better leverage AI because I saw a huge opportunity. But beyond that, I saw the kind of evolution. I had played around with some of the tools that were predecessors to ChatGPT before. I'm blanking on the one right now that I use the most, but I had played with a lot of them before, had seen how some of them were--
[00:05:04] Michelle Calcote King: Like Jasper?
[00:05:05] Jessica Aries: Yes, Jasper I had played with! I saw kind of how it worked, where it had issues. And so when ChatGPT launched, which I think is really what most people think of GenAI now. Their first immediate response is ChatGPT and that's because when it became available to us, it was like taking that functionality of Jasper and giving it to us all for free. So for us, a lot of it was me trying to understand and kind of break it. I'm one of those people I love to play with it until I break it. So it was kind of challenging. What could I put into it? What would it give me back? What kind of prompts resulted in the best responses? And then how far could I take it? So I think that's where firms in particular haven't yet tested it as much and someone like me who loves to break it first is probably kind of refreshing to them to say, "Hey, I've already broken it. Here's the boundaries. Here's the pitfalls. Here's the things you don't want to step in and here's the ways to protect yourself from that."
That's really how I got into it and how I've approached it. And the way I'm seeing people in the industry now look at it is they are really wanting to understand what it can do for them, how it can impact their existing workflows, especially now that some of the kinks are getting worked out. As well as they better understand the terms of service, they better understand what kind of information they should and shouldn't be putting into it. As well as there's new tools and new advancements and even the different tiers of offerings that now allow for you to keep some of that information that would be confidential, truly confidential.
There's this evolution I think right now of firms now being more interested in it and wanting to understand how they can leverage it, knowing that they don't have to jeopardize their bar license to use it.
[00:06:42] Michelle Calcote King: I do want to get into the risks, but let's start with the opportunities.
What are the best opportunities for law firms and their marketing professionals with AI? What can AI do for them?
[00:06:53] Jessica Aries: Well, streamline a lot of the work we used to do in our marketing departments. I came from in-house in a marketing department where I always felt like there was more work than there was time to do all of the work. You could literally work 12-hour days and still never be done because there was another lawyer who needed your help with something. And so where I see the biggest opportunity is taking those things that are huge time sucks from our day and simplifying them. Something as simple as I have a client alert that's going out via email, I can simplify the process of creating the social media post that's going to go, the subject line, the lead in to the actual article of the client alert that I might post on our blog or somewhere else. All of that can be simplified and leveraged with ChatGPT to just make things easier and speed up that process.
But then beyond that, I think it's a great auditing tool, especially when you're asked to create a new campaign or a new idea for, let's say an office launch or the opportunity of a new industry group that's joining your firm. You can use it as a great brainstorming tool and just something to kind of verify that you didn't miss anything. It's a great way for you as a great marketer to just enhance what you're already doing. So I think there's just a lot of opportunities there, but I do like to say, too, the one negative drawback of ChatGPT or using something like that is you really have to already have those marketing skills before you start using it, because I think it amplifies the good or the bad. So if you're a great marketer, it's going to amplify that you're a great marketer. If you're not a strong marketer, it's going to amplify the fact that you don't really know your stuff. And so you've really got to spend that time honing those skills to be a great marketer first before you can really use the tool to its full advantage. That's how I'm seeing firms really leverage it and I'm seeing the great marketers get even better using it.
[00:08:46] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, it's interesting when it first came on the scene, everyone had this like immediate fear that it would replace them, you know? And I sort of likened it to — cause I'm old enough to remember, you know, when social media came on the scene and Google and I was working back before there was an Internet — and it really just is an evolution in our work and learning how to use the tools available to us to be better at what we're already doing. I mean, surely it will replace some of those very mundane tasks that, honestly, most of us graduate out of and we're going to skip that level now. So absolutely.
Let's look at best practices when using AI. In your presentation, you kind of went through a case study and you actually had AI ask you questions. I loved that thought. But let's talk in general, best practices for using AI in your day-to-day work.
[00:09:38] Jessica Aries: My first best practice is to give AI a job. So before you sit down and just start asking it questions, I think it's important to tell the robot who it's supposed to be because sometimes we sit down and we'll just write a question to it and so it's going to pull from all over, you know, it's database of language when it responds and sometimes that's when you get the worst responses. So if you can help the robot understand what role it's supposed to be playing in this conversation, that helps you a lot. So I love to start with saying like, "Hey, you're a marketing expert at a law firm." So you're not just a marketing expert in e-comm. You're now a marketing expert at a law firm. And I think helping it set the stage of understanding what role it's supposed to play.
And then I, as you mentioned, like to have it ask me questions about me or my business or my client or whoever I'm trying to solve the problem for. And that's where I think you really get into understanding do you know enough information as a marketer to really utilize this tool? Because it's going to ask questions like, "Who is your target audience? What geography are you trying to target? What are their pain points? What are the issues? What are the objections they have when they're talking to you in a consultation?" And I think as marketers, we don't always have access to all of that information unless we go back to the lawyers and say, "Hey, so what were the objections that someone gave you the last time you pitched them in a meeting? What were their reasons why they didn't hire you?" And that makes you actually be a better marketer to say, "Why haven't I ever asked these questions before and thought about that when creating content or when creating messaging for our firm?”
[00:11:12] Michelle Calcote King: I'm a big fan of being a good questioner. I did a lot of speaking for a while on the art of knowledge extraction because I do think that is a critical role as a marketer because we can't know what we don't know. Being good at drawing out the right information is a skill. A lot of people on my team are former journalists. And I find that a really important skill. So being able to utilize AI to help with that, to help that process is a really cool functionality.
Well, let's talk about risks. We talked about best practices. What are those things to avoid and risks to be aware of?
[00:11:44] Jessica Aries: Anytime you're putting anything confidential into something that has a terms of service that says it's discoverable: Red flag. Like anyone who's worked in legal marketing long enough, that's a red flag, right? Understanding the terms of service of anything that you're using. Making sure you understand who owns the IP rights of the output, that's an important part, too. I did IT and privacy law. As someone who worked in that area, privacy, is a huge concern too, right? Are you putting information in there that's private information that shouldn't be shared? Names of clients? Beyond just confidential, but also things that your clients wouldn't want you to have put into something that's discoverable, for whatever reason. So there's a lot of risks in that sense and so I think having a good understanding of what should be put into the tool, what's allowable, what's not allowable, but then beyond that, also just using your brain, right? If you wouldn't broadcast it across social media, then you probably shouldn't be broadcasting it within ChatGPT, especially if you're using the free version. If you don't have the enterprise version, or you're not using one of the other tools that's a closed system.
I know a lot of firms right now are building their own systems for that exact reason, or using tools like I heard of one called Claude that's more closed. Those are ones that, from my understanding, have that ability to kind of protect that data. So if you're wanting to use some of these tools and you're not ready to pay for the enterprise level of ChatGPT to have that production, maybe look at some of those like Claude or even building your own or partnering with someone who already has built one that will close it down for you.
[00:13:15] Michelle Calcote King: And can you talk a little bit about the fact that they are basically watermarking any content created by ChatGPT? What does that mean?
[00:13:23] Jessica Aries: I actually saw that that first came to light in an article I was reading-- so we write a monthly newsletter that talks about the latest things that are happening in social and digital media and marketing. And I saw a New York Times article that was talking about how these systems, they are created by a library of content that's uploaded into them and then digested, basically, and spit out. Well, that content has to be written by humans. And so the system doesn't want to have, you know, the people who created ChatGPT OpenAI, they do not want their system to be filled with AI-generated content. So what they're doing is they're watermarking the outputs that they're putting. They're putting the words in a certain order to be able to scan and be able to see, "Okay, this is AI-generated content," so they don't input back into the system content that was GenAI created. They have to preserve the integrity of their systems.
And so, you have to be really careful of representing that this content is something I wrote and is my intellectual property and yada yada yada without realizing that this is happening on the back end. They are watermarking this data, they are using it, certain word structures, so that it signifies to the system that that is not something that's human written, and thus doesn't corrupt their system; and could be used later in the future, it wouldn't surprise me if there's tools to be able to scan and tell us, then everyone, all of us, and out you, if you're claiming something's written by you, and is really AI-generated.
[00:14:52] Michelle Calcote King: Fascinating. Which has implications then for copyright, I would assume.
[00:14:56] Jessica Aries: Oh, yeah. Copyright. Also, if you're claiming you're not using GenAI with your client's work, and you are, big, huge issue there. Your privacy policies, too. And, "Hello, privacy lawyer over here," is always very conscious of what you're saying your policy is and then how you're actually executing your workload. So you have to be really careful with all of those areas.
[00:15:20] Michelle Calcote King: So let's talk tools. What are some of your favorite tools that you recommend? So let's say you're a marketer at a law firm and you really haven't gotten into AI yet and you want to improve your workflow. What would be some of the tools you'd recommend they check out?
[00:15:35] Jessica Aries: Well, so I always recommend that if you're a marketer working in-house, you ask if you're, first of all, allowed to use any firm data when creating marketing materials. If there's a policy, follow that.
Beyond that, if your firm's very strict and is like, "You can't use ChatGPT at all," then that's where I'd say, go to your personal profiles and things like LinkedIn and experiment with tools like ChatGPT. You know, test it out when writing your own LinkedIn bio and see what it gives you. Test it out with writing some LinkedIn posts to see what the outputs look like. Things like that.
If your firm allows you to use firm data, then there's a lot of different tools I would recommend playing with. The first one, obviously ChatGPT, which is the most popular, but I do recommend upgrading to ChatGPT-4. The outputs are so much better and it has a much larger memory. What that means is it can iterate on itself. You can have it ask you those questions, you can respond to those questions. It will recall what you had said in response to those so that you can get a better response in the iterations of your inputs and outputs. Which if you haven't used ChatGPT, go play with it so you can understand what I mean by that. It basically responds like you're chatting with someone. And so if you want a more sophisticated output, ChatGPT-4 has a better memory to be able to actually give you better outputs.
Beyond that, the other tools that I'm really loving, I love AI for data. So I'm a big user of wanting to analyze data and slice and dice it in different ways and I used to be one of those people who sat for long periods of time in pivot tables, slicing and dicing data to better understand what strategies are working for my clients, what aren't. And even the reporting that I'd get from some really advanced tools was never enough for me, so that's where something like ChatGPT with its plugin with I think it's code interpreter* will allow you to upload data and slice and dice it in different ways. So ChatGPT for sure.
Beyond that, we do a ton of video content. So I'm using a lot of video tools like Video.ai is my favorite by far. If you have, you know, a lawyer who makes a lot of webinars and you want to slice and dice them into smaller snippets that can be used on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on wherever, whatever platform you want to put them on, Video.ai is my, my favorite tool. It'll add captions, it'll highlight the places that are, you know, best for potential engagement for you. So that's a tool I really love.
And we use Descript a lot as well because we do so much video editing.
[00:18:08] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah we use that for our podcast and video as well. Yep.
[00:18:11] Jessica Aries: It's just so easy and it basically takes your video content and makes it like a Word document. And so you can edit your video content like a Word document whereas before having to open something like Adobe Premiere-- I mean, I have a multimedia design team that would do that, but it's still, like, just the opening of the application itself is a heavy lift on your computer. So to be able to use something like Descript is really the way to go if you're trying to edit and can even help do voiceovers and things like that. Those are some of my favorite tools and tools that I probably use every single-- actually I use them every single day in some way, shape or form, even though I'm not supposed to be editing my own videos, I'm always like, "Oh! I just want to adjust this."
[00:18:51] Michelle Calcote King: Right. You mentioned one that I played +around with, which I loved. I think it's called Crystal AI. I love personality tests and assessment. I just find them fascinating. And I stumbled upon Crystal a couple of years ago and just ran it on friends and a few of my employees and the accuracy was scary. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:19:11] Jessica Aries: Yeah, so that's part of the like LinkedIn tools, the business development side. In that presentation, I tried to think for the marketing and the BD side, cause I also used to work in business development. I actually managed BD tech for a global firm.
And I just remember how I always craved more information. And so, some of the AI tools I had showcased, one was Crystal AI, which basically scans public LinkedIn profiles and gives you a high-level DiSC assessment on that person so you know how to approach communicating with them. If you haven't played with DiSC, anyone here who's like, "What's a DiSC assessment?" It's basically a personality assessment that will tell you how to have better conversations, what kind of information is going to resonate with people when you're talking to them. I'm a very visual person, so it always comes back with all these cues that when you're talking to me, visuals work better. But for others, it might be data, or it might be, you know, paragraphs, or it might be case studies. So tools like Crystal give you insights into the people who you're potentially pitching, which is very powerful.
Another tool that I love and use almost every day that I can't believe I didn't mention already is Taplio, which essentially works with LinkedIn and it's a tool that it has a lot of capabilities, but my favorite lately that it's launched is the ability to create content for you. GenAI-generated LinkedIn posts for you based on your past content. So it scans your past content and suggests different LinkedIn posts to share, and I use that one almost every day for idea generation. Now I do have to edit them. They're not perfect, but it's a great starting point and it saves me a ton of time. And they actually now just released a carousel generator, which is amazing. So if you've written a blog post or something and you don't have a graphic design team or you don't have-- graphic design doesn't have the time to create a carousel post for you, you can take the URL from your blog post, your article, whatever it is, and paste it into Taplio and it will generate a carousel post for you in your brand colors instantly, and then upload it to LinkedIn for you. It's crazy.
[00:21:13] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, that's wild. I remember Taplio from your presentation, especially the carousel functionality. That's fantastic.
Well, this has been fantastic. Is there any final thought around AI that you'd like to leave our listeners with?
[00:21:29] Jessica Aries: I think my biggest reminder and the thing that I actually started the presentation off with that you attended, but the thing that I'm becoming most known for is saying that AI is like makeup and the sense that it should enhance what you have. It shouldn't cover it up. So remember that AI is going to amplify the type of marketer you are, going to amplify the type of lawyer you are. So if you're one who's going to cut corners, it's going to really exacerbate that. But if you're someone who's really going to push the tool and challenge the tool, it's going to amplify that, too, and make you a better marketer. So use it to enhance what you're doing. Use it to enhance what you're doing in your legal work. And, you know, don't fall afoul of any of those confidentiality rules for your firm or those privacy rules for your clients.
[00:22:15] Michelle Calcote King: So we've been talking to Jessica Aries of By Aries. So if people wanted to get in touch with you and learn more, where's the best place for them to go?
[00:22:22] Jessica Aries: Well, I'm always on LinkedIn, I feel like every day. So please reach out via LinkedIn or my website's a great place. You can find my TikTok there, my reels, all my video content and YouTube is another great place. I make long form videos there, too, on different topics. So if you're someone who really likes to get gritty and digest a topic in full, check out our YouTube channel. That's @ByAries marketing.
[00:22:43] Michelle Calcote King: Thank you so much.
[00:22:45] Jessica Aries: Thank you.
[00:22:45]: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.
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Architecture, engineering and construction firms are increasingly integrating video content into their marketing strategies. Thanks to smartphones, AEC firms don’t need expensive equipment or large production crews to create high-quality videos. Field professionals can now use their phones to capture on-site perspectives, resulting in authentic and engaging behind-the-scenes content.
Jessica Whitlock, a studio leader at RS&H, was one of the trailblazers in her firm’s video initiative. She shares her experience launching the initiative in this episode of “Spill the Ink.” Michelle Calcote King interviews her about the role of employee-generated videos in supporting RS&H's brand and marketing efforts. They discuss how to get started, offer tips for shooting and editing great videos, and explore how to get buy-in from employees and clients. They also touch on must-have equipment and ways marketers can enhance collaboration with field professionals.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho is Jessica Whitlock and what is RS&H
Why RS&H started creating videos for social media
How they earned buy-in and rallied support from employees and clients to shoot on-site videos
How to get busy field professionals to participate and contribute content
How to train employees to shoot high-quality videos on-site
What equipment and apps are needed to shoot and produce videos
How employee videos contribute to building RS&H’s company culture and brand
Tips for enhancing collaboration between marketing and field professionals
About our featured guestJessica Whitlock, NCIDQ, CHID, IIDA, is a Healthcare Studio Leader at RS&H with over 11 years of experience in healthcare interior design, architecture and project management. She is a seasoned design professional with a bachelor’s degree in interior design. Jessica is NCIDQ Certified and holds a Florida Registration in Interior Design. She is also AAHID certified and a member of the International Interior Design Association, Women in Healthcare and Association of Medical Facility Professionals. Jessica’s experience ranges from acute care, outpatient care, behavioral healthcare, women’s specialty care and oncology care.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out RS&H
Follow RS&H on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Jessica Whitlock on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Check out the videos mentioned in the episode: “A Day in the Life” and “Live On-Site with RS&H”
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
Transcript[00:00:00] Jessica Whitlock: We are a society that's looking for quick information and digesting it quickly. So how do we get them to stop scrolling? And it's really those 'Wow' moments in a very quick and digestive way, but also authentic. I really believe that the next chapter of marketing is showing things in a very authentic way.
[00:00:20]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show.
[00:00:37] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for professional services firms, including architecture, engineering and construction firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
One of the great and unique things about the architecture, engineering and construction industry is that there are plenty of marketing visuals to work with. You know, there's schematics, construction sites, finished buildings, you name it. And with today's advanced technology in-the-field employees are one of your best resources for capturing pictures and videos that help us marketers tell the story that we need to tell. And really all your employees need is the smartphone in their pockets.
Today, we're talking to Jessica Whitlock. She's the Orlando studio leader at RS&H, and she's here to share a little bit about how her team is using employee videos to generate great content for the firm, and we might pick her brain on a few other topics, too. Thanks for being here today.
[00:01:36] Jessica Whitlock: Thank you. I'm excited.
[00:01:38] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Well, let's start with, just tell me a little bit about your role at RS&H and your career.
[00:01:43] Jessica Whitlock: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am the Orlando Studio Leader for RS&H, and RS&H, we are an architecture, engineering and consulting firm. We're nationwide with headquarters in Jacksonville, Florida. We've been in business--
[00:01:54] Michelle Calcote King: that's where I'm based.
[00:01:55] Jessica Whitlock: Yeah, perfect. Yes. So, and we've been in business for over 80 years. So we really have that history and that trust with our clients. My background is actually in interior design, and then as I got to RS&H, it started to kind of flourish and go into different markets, which I'm super excited about. And then our Orlando office actually we focus most of our attention on healthcare. So my attention and for a majority of my career has always been healthcare, specifically for architecture.
[00:02:23] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. Yeah. Let's talk about getting employees engaged, and using their own footage for those marketing initiatives. Like I saw you've done a lot of, I think you call it "Live Onsite with RS&H." Just tell me a little bit about what you're doing and how it's been working so far.
[00:02:39] Jessica Whitlock: We've started this journey really recently and it sort of became a very organic way of how we kind of fell into it. So I was actually on-site for one of our projects that we were finishing up, and any architect or designer knows that as you go into the end of your project, you're pretty much on-site for multiple days in a row for about two weeks or more. And I was on-site during that time, and I was taking, of course, all my calls and marketing meetings from the site.
And one marketing meeting I had, I was on-site and I shared my camera and so they could see, you know, all the commotion and all of this stuff going on in the background, and they were just super intrigued. "Where are you? What's going on?" And so I actually picked up my laptop and just started to walk them around the project. In that moment was when we had this like, "Aha." This moment of, "Hmm. Well, we are this interested in it. I bet everyone else would be, too." And we started to talk about how we really don't see that kind of dynamic type of content from other architecture firms and how we could really use this to set ourselves apart.
You know, RS&H we've also started kind of at the same time, some other initiatives around a very similar content and one is called "Mentor Minute," which is another content series that another one of our associates is creating. Just really quick videos on mentorship within the architecture and engineering industry to younger associates coming up.
[00:04:00] Michelle Calcote King: Very cool.
[00:04:01] Jessica Whitlock: Yeah, and then RS&H also rolled out recently "A Day in the Life" where they follow their different associates around in different markets. You could be in buildings or you can be in transportation. And it's a really quick video. They let them know this is basically the day in the life of an engineer or an architect.
So, we've recently started to see really good positive feedback from this type of, kind of, content movement on social media.
[00:04:23] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, it really is. Well, one, it's amazing. I just returned from a bucket list vacation in Egypt last week.
[00:04:29] Jessica Whitlock: Oh my gosh! That's amazing!
[00:04:31] Michelle Calcote King: It was amazing. You know, talk about like amazing visuals and everything, but it really is amazing to go on these vacations now and just use your phone, you know? There's no need for another camera. Because I'm old enough to remember, you know, having a bigger camera, and taking film to get printed and that kind of thing.
[00:04:48] Jessica Whitlock: And just hoping it turned out good. You're like, "I hope I got that picture I wanted."
[00:04:51] Michelle Calcote King: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And not being able to check it, you know, right in the field.
So what was your experience getting buy-in? Were there any concerns from either the marketing team or leadership?
[00:05:02] Jessica Whitlock: So I think when it comes to buy-in, my experience has been based on relationships. The stronger your relationships are, the easier the buy-in is going to be, and that's for external and internal purposes. So I have a really strong relationship with our marketing team. Our marketing team is amazing. They don't silo themselves. They make sure they work with all of our different teams. And then when it comes to the client, we have really strong relationships with our clients. So getting buy in from them is also a really simple task. And this may not be the case for every single project or every single client, especially some of those projects that, you know, the information they don't want it to be public until later on. So there's only very specific projects we can, you know, make sure we do it with; make sure we're not breaking any type of NDAs or anything like that. But it's really more based on relationships than anything.
[00:05:48] Michelle Calcote King: Got it. Yeah, that's smart. Well, and also having someone in your role who respects marketing, seems to really understand marketing and work well with them. That's critical to something like that.
[00:06:00] Jessica Whitlock: And typically the clients, you know, they're just as excited as we are. And so they're excited, they're usually like, "Yeah, let's do it!" And they want to push it through as well. So, we tend to have pretty good support in that aspect because we're all in the, you know, sharing the same boat and we all have the same outcome and value around it.
[00:06:20] Michelle Calcote King: That's what I always tell clients. I always say, "You'd be surprised at, you know, until you ask, you don't know." We have some clients that really want to protect that client relationship at all costs, which I understand. And so they might be a little fearful of asking, you know, "Can we shoot video? Can we do this?" My advice is you'd really be surprised how much they, too, want to share the story. And obviously there is a time and place when confidentiality is key. It might be some proprietary technology you don't want to show that kind of thing, but yeah, it's having that conversation.
Do you give your team or have you done any kind of training to kind of make sure they're capturing the right thing? How do you kind of make sure you're getting what you want and they're delivering the kind of content that you want?
[00:07:03] Jessica Whitlock: That's an interesting question. When we first started this, you know, I'm not savvy when it comes to making different videos and things like that. But when marketing asked me to kind of start this campaign and this endeavor, I kind of went in full headfirst into the deep end because I was really behind it.
I started to work with them to learn how to quickly make these videos, which apps are going to be the most beneficial to me, which is going to be the best ones for editing. And they really helped me with that so that I could create these, honestly, on the spot, push them through my channels, and then we share them together through both my personal channels on LinkedIn, as well as the company channels. So they kind of worked with me on how we share that content, and they've also showed me a lot of cool tips and tricks I wouldn't have known before. And so it was kind of a really collaborative effort and learning to put those things together that you know, I'll admit I'm now personally using in my own personal different Instagram posts and contents and things like that.
[00:08:01] Michelle Calcote King: That's awesome. Can you share some of those apps or tips that have been particularly helpful?
[00:08:07] Jessica Whitlock: My first content I pushed through after we had this 'Aha' moment, I was very nervous about it. And so I was like, "I don't know. I haven't really done this before." So I created a video and I just sent it to marketing like, "You guys just make it look good." And when I got it back it looked amazing and so they were able to kind of like point out the different things of how they cut it and what to look for. The biggest thing I've learned is making sure your video really shouldn't be over a minute and a half. If it's over a minute and a half, you just lost your audience. And so that was something I learned through them. Also making sure that the music you set behind it and your captions and things are going to be something that as people are scrolling, because we're a scrolling generation, what's going to make them stop, even if it's just for a few seconds and pay attention to your content? They were able to kind of give me tips around that. I was able to download like a film app where it actually allows me to take the video, put it into that app, make all my cuts, apply the music, and make it a little bit more customizable instead of just using, you know, reel templates that you would see on Instagram or Facebook. Actually being able to create it the exact way you want it to be able to show the content in the way that you want people to perceive it.
[00:09:24] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. And do you use any tech other than your phone? Are you thinking about lighting or lapel mics, that kind of thing?
[00:09:33] Jessica Whitlock: That's like a good thought. We actually only use our phones and we do that on purpose. We've thought about what would we do if we took it to the next level? And then I kind of was like, "You know, I really don't want to." Not because it's more work or it's more equipment, but it starts to make it kind of less authentic.
[00:09:49] Michelle Calcote King: Right, a little too polished.
[00:09:50] Jessica Whitlock: It's a little too polished. And if we think about what our different generations are really craving these days, they are really craving essence of connection, but in a very authentic way. And so if you go on to different architectural firm social medias, you'll start to see a lot of it's static and a lot of it is either post-project professional polished photography or it's polished renderings. But what about that in between? What about the process? What about the construction? The thing that everyone wants to see and be a part of? How does it get built? What does that look like? And so being able to go in with just a phone and really show the authentic environment of that process is, I think, really unique and it's what people are really wanting to see is something different. It's quick and it's dynamic.
[00:10:45] Michelle Calcote King: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So how are you expanding this? So you talked about the mentor videos. Are there other folks like you in similar roles that you're now going, "Hey, you know, if you're going to be at this site, here's what we're doing." How are you kind of rolling that out?
[00:11:02] Jessica Whitlock: Our marketing team and myself and some of the other people who started to take on this initiative, even though they're not labeled 'marketing,' it's all about how do you encourage the associates to stop and take content? And I think a lot of it is streamlining the process.
How do we streamline this process? So if we want our associates to really get involved and taking a lot of this, how do we as a company provide them with templates and resources, as well as instructions to make it easier on them?
I'm the type of person who loves to do it myself and I find it fascinating, but not everyone's like that. So our company is actually taking a deeper look into creating a program and creating resources on our own to provide to our associates so that when they're on-site, you know, here's a quick little template. If you want to take photos or a video, just put it in this app or this system that we've already pre-created for you with all the branding needed and you can just spit it out. Or if you get content, just send it to marketing and they put it together for you and they push it out.
And so it's giving them different types of resources, so it makes their lives easier because what's going to happen is if you try to encourage associates to do those things, it takes time. You know, it takes time putting content together. So how do we streamline that process? And that's what we're working on now. And we're really excited about it.
[00:12:22] Michelle Calcote King: Do you find that, and this is kind of a loaded question because I know how I've found it with clients, that it kind of it empowers people-- It makes them feel good about themselves to kind of be the person to have kind of visibility on social media with regards to their job or have their job share the content that they're creating? Especially younger people who are used to this and have grown up with this kind of life where social media is kind of central to everything. Do you find that it's kind of empowering and almost like an HR tool?
[00:12:53] Jessica Whitlock: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because everyone likes when they post on Instagram and they tag a restaurant and then they see that restaurant, you know, share it in stories, your heart just bursts. And it doesn't matter if two people looked at it or if a million people looked at it. It was the fact that they took notice and they really liked how you were promoting them and they were supporting you. It's not only very uplifting and encouraging to our entire associate team, but it's also, you know, how do you encourage them to want to be a part of the face of the brand?
[00:13:30] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:13:30] Jessica Whitlock: You know? They want to be a part of that vision. They want to be a part of that brand. And it also shows to our clients our entire breadth of our team. And they get to see all these different faces that maybe they don't get to see every single day, but they get to see it through social media. It really kind of opens the door of like, "Wow their team is really expansive. I had no idea." Or, "I didn't know that person was, you know, an aerospace engineer." And get to see a little bit more about our company that maybe they're only seeing a little bit of part of, but now they get to see, you know, everything that we can do and what we're capable of.
[00:14:05] Michelle Calcote King: I love that. That's really fantastic.
This is a podcast on marketing for AEC industry. Since you do collaborate so well with your marketing team, how have you been able to build that great relationship so maybe if there's a marketer out there that's trying to build better relationships with studio leaders like yourself, what's been the kind of key to you working effectively with them?
[00:14:27] Jessica Whitlock: I would 100-percent say, do not work in a silo. We are a connected community and we seek that out. And so when marketers are, especially in the architecture and design industry, when you're trying to put together content, your designers and architects will know exactly what the clients are wanting to see and needing to see from a branding perspective as well as project styles. Everyone tends to have their style when they put out their content showing brand and different types of projects and your designers and your architects will be the ones that be able to tell you, "Okay, we know what they're looking for. This is the way that it needs to be." And working together and collaboratively from an early stage — that's always key, from an early stage — really creates a strong partnership and so when you put out these different contents, you're able to ensure that what you're putting out is exactly what your audience is looking for.
[00:15:25] Michelle Calcote King: Fantastic advice.
Would love to hear just as a final note before we go, and I know you're not a marketer, but since you are involved, what's the future for architecture, engineering firms, you know, building brand visibility, engaging with audiences? What trends do you see happening?
[00:15:42] Jessica Whitlock: I do think that architecture marketing has always relied on relationships and those 'Wow' moments to really capture and convey the expertise that we're really trying to get out there, and that's not going away. It's not going to go away. However, these tactics evolve into these quick, digestible, authentic moments. It's kind of like guerrilla marketing. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with guerrilla marketing. It started in the early millennium and it really grew in popularity as social media started to gain in popularity. And it's these really interactive and innovative and unconventional marketing tactics to grab the attention of our audience in a very quick way. Again, going back to the comment I made about the scrolling, we are a society that's looking for quick information and digesting it quickly. So, how do we get them to stop scrolling? And it's really those 'Wow' moments in a very quick and digestive way, but also authentic. I really believe that the next chapter of marketing is showing things in a very authentic way. If you're on Instagram, you'll see, you know, these stories where it's like the Instagram moment, but what actually really happened?
[00:16:52] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:53] Jessica Whitlock: What's grabbing you is not the Instagram moment. What's grabbing you is what really happened. Because that's the authentic lens is pulling back the curtain and showing, "This is reality." And people want that connection to that. They're done with the polished, you know, kind of overexposed content. They want to have real authentic connections with people.
[00:17:16] Michelle Calcote King: I've seen a lot of writing about that, especially with AI and deepfakes and filters on pictures that we are kind of coming a little full circle to people going, "But what's really real?" That's a really fantastic point. So, yeah.
Well, thank you so much for joining me to talk about this. We'll probably put up a few links on the podcast page to some of the videos you've done, because they are really great examples of how to do this well. But if anybody wants to reach out to you and talk to you a little bit more about this, what would be the best way for them to do that?
[00:17:47] Jessica Whitlock: I would say right through my email, which is [email protected].
[00:17:53] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
[00:17:54] Jessica Whitlock: Thank you.
[00:17:57]: Thanks for listening to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click 'Subscribe' to get future episodes.
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Jennifer Sebranek helped shape GBBN Architects’s marketing into a vibrant, creative and attention-grabbing masterpiece — much like the buildings the firm’s architects design. Their success truly cemented as the firm focused on building a client-first brand, which Jennifer refers to as GBBN’s “You, not us” approach. It captures GBBN’s unwavering commitment to prioritize the client experience and foster lasting connections with the built environment, clients, project partners and each other.
Michelle Calcote King invites Jennifer to share insights into GBBN’s marketing approach and the trends shaping its future. In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” they underscore the significance of an authentic brand identity and personable writing. Michelle and Jennifer also explore how GBBN integrates video, public relations and email marketing into its overall strategy.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho is Jennifer Sebranek and what is GBBN Architects
GBBN’s “You, not us” approach
How GBBN’s brand has transformed over the years
How GBBN uses social media to give audiences a “peek behind the curtain”
The role of video in architecture marketing
The benefits of public relations for an architecture firm
How GBBN leverages email marketing to stay top of mind with prospective and current clients
Why architecture marketers should invest in elevating the client experience
How to get the most out of professional associations like the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS)
About our featured guestJennifer oversees GBBN’s award-winning marketing department and directs communications and public relations initiatives across all markets and offices. She’s a flexible and patient consensus-builder who works with her team, firm leadership and a growing workforce in the United States and China to ensure that GBBN’s diverse, creative voices share an authentic and cohesive brand message. Her ability to listen, empathize and consider multiple points of view is informed by all the places she’s called home—from her rural roots in North Carolina to time spent living in Chicago, England and Cincinnati.
Jennifer is a past president of the Greater Cincinnati chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services, where she has also been recognized as “Marketer of the Year.” She was named a 2023 Cincinnati Business Courier's “Women Who Mean Business,” and she is frequently invited to present her marketing insights at conferences, including the SMPS Pinnacle Experience and the Cincinnati Public Relations Society of America Media Day Conference.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out GBBN Architects
Follow GBBN on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Jennifer Sebranek on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Check out The Reel GBBN
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
Transcript[00:00:00] Jennifer Sebranek: We have had a time period where firms were so busy, backlog was at the highest it's ever been, we also had the COVID pandemic where people weren't able to meet face-to-face. So you've got busyness and you don't have that one-on-one time. And I think in that time period, it was really hard to connect with your clients and to build these relationships that help get you that next project or help them become advocates for your brand. So for us, we are really focused on going back to the basics of the client experience.
[00:00:33]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show.
[00:00:51] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and marketing agency for architecture, engineering and construction firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
Is there such a thing as a right way to market an architecture firm? Which strategies work? Which don't? What's up and coming for the industry that we should all be talking about? That's what we'll talk about today as we continue our series of interviews with leading architecture firm marketers.
So I'd like to welcome Jennifer Sebranek to the podcast. She's the principal and chief marketing officer at GBBN Architects. So excited to have you here today, Jennifer.
[00:01:33] Jennifer Sebranek: I am so excited to be here as well.
[00:01:35] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. And I hope I nailed your name right?
[00:01:38] Jennifer Sebranek: Perfect. It was perfect. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[00:01:40] Michelle Calcote King: Well, let's start off, just tell me a little bit about your career and you know, sort of how you ended up in this field and at GBBN.
[00:01:47] Jennifer Sebranek: Sure. I have been in the AEC industry for 15 years now. It's amazing how quickly that ticks up on you. And I ended up here after relocating to Cincinnati. And I didn't really know about this as a specialty in marketing. I had a marketing background, had been in the furniture industry, but I found myself working for a developer. And then after a couple of years there, jumped over to the architecture side.
And why I love architecture is because at the end of the day, you get to see a physical manifestation of the work that you did. It comes out in a building or a space or revitalization. Whatever it is, you get to see it, you get to touch it, and it really represents all the work that not only the architects and the construction companies did and engineers, but it also represents all the work that the marketing teams and the business development professionals did to make that happen.
I've been at GBBN for ten years now, and we have really been focused on sharing our story about how we are positively affecting our clients. How are the things that we do as architects making our clients more successful, helping them hit their goals? And we're focused in higher education, community development, healthcare, as well as the arts, and we have a technology team.
[00:03:08] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. I've got some specific questions, but if someone were to say, you know, "Tell me, what's your approach to marketing and business development for GBBN?" Could you sum that up for us?
[00:03:19] Jennifer Sebranek: Yes. I like to talk about us being focused on, "You, not us." So our marketing and business development approaches are always centered around our clients, our potential clients, our partners, and how we're helping them surface their issues and find solutions through space.
At our firm, we do have two separate marketing and business development approaches.
Marketing is all about awareness, making sure that everybody is able to learn about us and think about would we be a good partner for them. And then, of course, business development is all about relationships, right? How are we cultivating those relationships?
Both are really centered on the voice of our clients. What are they up against? How can we help them? How can we make them look good to their bosses? What's really working for us is really focusing on them and their issues versus us as architects and what we're doing.
[00:04:16] Michelle Calcote King: I got to tell you, I love your brand and also just sort of your brand voice. You're kind of like a little bit edgy. It's different. Can you tell me a little bit about the brand and the brand voice and sort of how you developed that? Was it hard to kind of be able to push the needle a little bit with that?
[00:04:33] Jennifer Sebranek: Yeah, so our brand is five years old this year. And it was about a journey of about eight years to deploy that new brand. We are very fortunate at GBBN that our leadership, we believe in the value of marketing and business development.
[00:04:48] Michelle Calcote King: I could tell, yeah. You can really tell that. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:04:52] Jennifer Sebranek: And it's very rare sometimes to have your CEO that absolutely — and our CEO, Matthew Schottelkotte — he understands that, "Hey, we're architects and we do that well, but we need people to really help us tell our story because we like to geek out on butt glazing and facade system, and our clients probably don't want to geek out about that." So we said, "How can our brand really reflects who we are and what we do for our clients?"
So we started first with really making sure that we were aligned as a leadership about who is GBBN, what do we stand for. So, we rewrote our guiding principles. We rewrote our mission statement. We really aligned on that. And then, the next step that we did was we created what is called a brand plan, and that is really starting to surface how are we different? What are the adjectives that describe our firm? How do we like to communicate with our clients? We went through that activity, and then we turned it over to an external agent feed to help us really bring those words to life. That didn't only mean just the visual, the logo, the brand look, but also what are the words that we're using so that we're making sure at the end of the day, we're connecting with the clients and what they care about.
So the brand has been really fun. So, five years and we've really tried to make sure that we evolve it to stay current with what we're learning about our clients, learning about what's working and not working. We have the most incredible marketing team here. When we rebranded, we made the strategic decision to hire a writer to help us surface those issues. It has been so successful that we hired another writer. We also have two graphic designers, a marketing manager, a marketing coordinator, and then myself. And the team really works together day in and day out to do proposals, but also to think about what is our social media campaign, how are we doing video? What are we doing to really connect to today's client and tomorrow's clients?
[00:06:47] Michelle Calcote King: Love that. Yeah, you can really tell. We work across professional services firms and our other market that we work a lot with this law firms. So architecture firms tend to push the needle in creativity, but I felt like yours really stood out. And as I was kind of reading through your social media, you often find this very stuffy, overly formal, corporatey language, and you don't have that. You have a very personable, "We're people here," kind of talking, kind of feel to it. Was that on purpose?
[00:07:17] Jennifer Sebranek: That's very intentional. It's very intentional.
We like to describe our social media as, "A glimpse into the firm." Our two major audiences are potential talent as well as clients that are using social media. And we wanted to make sure that it felt like a peek behind the door. What does it feel like to work at GBBN? And also what does it feel like to work with GBBN?
I think sometimes in our industry, we get so focused on that beautiful architectural final photo and if it's got a trash can in it and everybody gets really upset. What we wanted to do with our brand is to really peel back and show the thinking behind the making. How are we using digital fabrication to work with contractors to be able to get that perfect angle in that building that looks amazing in the final photo, but is messy behind the scenes? So that is always the goal is to really make it just a little bit of a behind the curtain of what's happening today.
[00:08:12] Michelle Calcote King: The other thing I noticed is you've got some really cool content. You know, I saw "The Reel GBBN." Tell me about the strategy behind producing that.
[00:08:20] Jennifer Sebranek: So we're always looking at how our users are consuming content. And I think as all marketers know is that what works today doesn't work tomorrow. So we have been over the last few years really thinking about video and how do we integrate it more? And I think in our industry, I mean, marketers, man. We wear so many hats and then you just throw in this request for proposals on top of it and we're busy all the time.
So we had to figure out a way to do videos, A, with no budget, because again, marketing AEC. And two, with a thousand other things on our plate. So what we did is we set a goal for every year we do about two to three project stories, and we realized that we're also doing still photography and everybody that's been on a photo shoot knows that there is so much time where you're just standing around waiting for people to fluff pillows, waiting for people to move. So what we did was we said, "Okay, while we're on site, let's just get our Samsung video camera, cell phone, and let's record. It's a low buy in, we bought a really basic microphone, and then our graphic designer interviews our project team to get the story behind it. And then we edit it all in house, and then it all comes together as a story about our project that helps supplement our case studies and other materials to tell the story. That was so successful that then we said, "What other stories can we tell? Let's interview our employees and find out why they like working here. If we do something fun, let's do a video on that to really help people see what it's like to work here."
[00:09:57] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. There's a time and place for that beautifully scripted, high-end video, but then just getting out there with your iPhone or something like that, you can really, really produce great content. I think people like that kind of less scripted and produced content many times. There's different means for it.
[00:10:17] Jennifer Sebranek: Yeah, it's, it's, especially with the trends of the TikTok, which we have not ventured into yet. When I see our partners that do video for us and they put these beautiful stories together and I feel like for like a professional firm, you need both. You need those that can tell the story in this beautiful produced way, and then you need this kind of gritty, kind of you figure out a way to do it internally. So it's a good combo to have.
[00:10:39] Michelle Calcote King: The other thing I noticed is that you are regularly published in a lot of publications, a lot of trade publications. What's the benefit you've found behind the PR that you're getting and how do you approach PR?
[00:10:51] Jennifer Sebranek: One of the major reasons for our rebrand was that we were ready to signal to the world about the elevated design that we've been doing over the years.
We're a 58-year-old firm. We've been around, people knew us as a good technical architect. But over the past years, we had really been investing in staff that had worked in New York and San Fran and Chicago who are coming to our cities. And we had also been developing our staff to that next level of design. So we had all this amazing work that was winning awards, but we hadn't really been sharing that. So that was a big point of the rebrand was to be able to share that story.
We are organized into market sectors. For example, our healthcare team. What I did is I sat down with each of the leaders of those market sectors, and I said, "What is your marketing plan?" And we developed a speaking, a writing, a publishing, a present strategy for each of those and we realized that, "Hey, we really needed this third-party publishing to help credential us and to help validate." It's so much easier to go to the client and say, "Well, we've been published in the New York Times, we've been published in Healthcare Design and in Behavioral Health, because they instantly like, they're like, "Okay, that's credible." And I think we started to see like with that, it just started to raise our awareness. And then there's nothing better than having someone else share your content on social media cause it gets to their audiences. So that success just really started to build, and that's the reason we needed that second writer, we needed that second graphic designer to keep up with the demand that was out there.
[00:12:24] Michelle Calcote King: Love that. Yeah. And that's exactly it. It's the credentialing, the validation, and third-party sharing your story. And yeah, like you said, on social media, it just sort of amplifies it because those outlets know what they're doing and are building audiences that you want to be in front of.
Let's talk trends. So we talked about what are you guys doing, but where do you see things headed? What, what are you kind of keeping an eye on right now in terms of what's the next thing for you guys marketing your firm?
[00:12:52] Jennifer Sebranek: I mean, we're absolutely keeping an eye on technology and what's happening with websites. We have an office in China. We use WeChat a lot to communicate. So we're trying to make sure we know that nothing stays the same and once you have success somewhere then it's time to pivot.
But I have to say, in our industry, one of the most important things that I think that we have to focus on is the client experience. So, lo-fi, but I think what happened in our industry is we have had a time period where firms were so busy, backlog was at the highest it's ever been, we also had the COVID pandemic where people weren't able to meet face-to-face. So you've got busyness and you don't have that one-on-one time. And I think in that time period, it was really hard to connect with your clients and to build these relationships that help get you that next project or help them become advocates for your brand. So for us, we are really focused on going back to the basics of the client experience and making sure that we're reminding ourselves what it was like to connect with each other before we all went remote. We're making sure that we're really thinking about, "How do we make a special experience so we can help our clients differentiate between us and another architecture firm?"
Oftentimes architecture firms, we all speak the same language. We've had interviews where clients have been like, "You all say the same words, but how are you different?" And I think how you're different is how you show, and how you work with somebody. How you build that relationship. I mean, we all have vendors that call us and ask us for things and we don't like that because they're asking us to do something for them. But those people that you love to pick up the phone and work with are ones that are calling you to really help you. To really say, "I know you're thinking about this in your business and here's how I can help you or here's how we can work together to accomplish your goals and make you look good to your boss."
So that's really what we're going to be focused on is really making sure our project managers, people working with clients day-to-day are focused on cultivating that amazing experience to help us be different in the competition.
[00:15:01] Michelle Calcote King: I've seen a lot of people talking about how, you know, obviously, AI is the big topic right now, but one of the interesting points somebody made was that the more that AI becomes prevalent, I think the more people will revert back to wanting to deal with humans and want that human touch and want that real relationship. I can 100-percent understand that because you start to not trust a lot of what you see. We went through this whole digitization phase with the pandemic and I think we're going to get back to a little bit more of "Okay, you know..." And you've got to be there. You've got to have that digital side of it, but that more human element is going to, I think, going to be the thing that a lot of firms are focused on.
[00:15:38] Jennifer Sebranek: You're so right. You've got to have both. You've got to have both to stay relevant. You have to have the digital to be relevant and then you've got to have human touch to stay connected.
[00:15:47] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. And I think people will crave it the more tech takes over a lot of our lives.
I noticed that you're a former Greater Cincinnati SMPS president — and SMPS for any of our listeners, it's the Society for Marketing Professional Services. It's the main association for marketers at architecture, engineering and construction firms. You're a member of the Board of Directors. Can you talk me through how has SMPS helped shaped your career? And, you know, if younger AEC marketers are listening, would you encourage them to get involved? What are some other avenues that have helped you develop in your career?
[00:16:21] Jennifer Sebranek: Oh my goodness. Absolutely get involved with it. There are very few people that understand what it's like to have five proposals on your desk, have three e-blasts that have to go out tomorrow, and a thousand other things on your plate. Marketers and business development professionals in our industry, we are a special group of people. SMPS is not only a crucial resource for me to learn about the trends that are happening, also to connect with people across the country, but it's also a way to have a group that really understands what you're going up against every day in your life and not only commiserate, but to help you have strategies.
One of my closest friends works for a competing architecture firms and we're not sharing competitive intelligence, but we are working together to figure out how we all navigate through these crazy environments that we work in. It's deadline-driven, it's high-pressure, it's different, and I think that having that network out there, it has just been so beneficial for not only my mental health, but to actually help me get to the C-Suite in this firm. Knowledge is power and being able to take to my CEO and the other members of our strategic team, trends that we're seeing, being able to say, you know, "My SMPS friends in other cities are seeing this and I think it's coming to our city next." It really starts to validate your information. And the best way to get involved is to be on a committee in your local chapter and then to make sure you go to the conferences because that's just where you get other opportunities to connect.
[00:17:52] Michelle Calcote King: I agree. I'm pretty involved in the Southeast. Even as an outside consultant, one, it just helps me understand what my clients are going through, you know. Gives me that kind of intelligence.
And I hate to back up to tactics, but you mentioned email and I'd love to know your approach to email. What are you putting out over email? Is it a priority? What are some of the ways that you're using email within your overall strategy?
[00:18:15] Jennifer Sebranek: Each of our markets, part of their marketing plan is e-blast. We made the move about three years ago to go away from the monthly newsletter. We were not seeing open stats, engagement stats that really showed. And then we realized, "Hey, if our brand is about 'Focus on them, not us,' we're just sharing information about us." So we pivoted from that, put our resources into thought leadership and doing e-blast. So each market then segmented their audiences and to specific ones. So we have our developer and then we have our healthcare and our higher education because we didn't want to be noise. We don't want to communicate noise to other people that aren't interested.
So we do use it to ship out insights, market-specific, and we try to only do it quarterly. Just not to be noise. But each market, they each have touch plans, so if they have a quarterly newsletter, then there might be other business development touches that they're following up via email for a client saying, "Hey, I know you're really struggling with making your sustainability goals by 2030. Here's an example of what our other clients are doing." Just trying to have touches in between those to make sure we're staying on their minds and being relevant to what they're up against.
[00:19:31] Michelle Calcote King: I appreciate you kind of diving into those different tactics because I'm always interested to see how people are using different tools. Some marketers favor some versus others, but yeah, segmentation and making sure that you're not annoying your, you know. They don't see your email in their inbox and think, "Irrelevant," you know.
[00:19:48] Jennifer Sebranek: MailChimp makes that so easy. I mean, there are others too, but it's just, it's so easy just to keep it all separate and update.
[00:19:55] Michelle Calcote King: I like to kind of end our interview with a final lesson. Is there a lesson you would say is one of the most valuable lessons you've learned over the course of your career in architecture marketing that you think other marketers would benefit from hearing?
[00:20:10] Jennifer Sebranek: I think at the end of the day, everybody wants to help everybody. And I think a lot of times we can be embarrassed or a little hesitant to reach out to someone and say like, "Hey, I see you're doing this and it looks great. Can you help me?" I feel like in our industry, marketers are so wanting to help each other. So I totally recommend build your network, be bold and ask people, "How are they doing that? Can they give you some advice?" Because I think a lot of times people think, "Well, they're not going to share their process." But I can tell you my process, but the end of the day, you're going to interpret it in your own unique way. We're not making widgets. We're creating experiences and that means that we're all gonna be doing it differently and you can't copy me because you're not me. So, be open to sharing information, be open to connecting and taking the time to meet others that you really look up to and they will always be willing to share some advice or help you be successful 'cause in this industry, it is the most collaborative sharing group I've ever worked with and it's just phenomenal.
[00:21:15] Michelle Calcote King: It's fantastic advice. Took me a while to learn, but, once I did it's a game changer.
So we've been talking to Jennifer Sebranek of GBBN Architects. If people want to get in touch and form a relationship with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch?
[00:21:28] Jennifer Sebranek: Oh, you know, I've got to pitch our Instagram or LinkedIn feed for you to be able to get that peek behind the scenes of what it's like to work with and at GBBN.
We're at @GBBNArchitects and feel free to direct message me through any of those platforms. I get copied on all of those inboxes, so I'm happy to reach out and connect and talk more about the awesome things in this industry.
[00:21:50] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
[00:21:54]: Thanks for listening to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.
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Extracting, capturing and communicating knowledge from project team members are fundamental responsibilities of an architecture firm’s marketing department. LS3P, an architecture, interiors and planning firm, has honed these processes over the years to drive its success, elevate its marketing efforts and provide greater value to its clients.
In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” Michelle Calcote King interviews Katie Robinson, LS3P’s chief marketing officer and a principal in the firm. They discuss the firm’s marketing evolution, including how Katie helped refine LS3P’s knowledge management efforts and the positive effect it had on the firm’s departments. They delve into conversations about how to engage subject-matter experts in marketing efforts as well as podcasting, social media, career development and artificial intelligence.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learnWho is Katie Robinson and what is LS3P
How to engage busy architecture professionals in marketing efforts
How LS3P captures and leverages employee knowledge
Why LS3P centralized its data and information in a custom dashboard and how it streamlines communication across the organization
How architecture marketing is evolving
The role of social media and technology in today’s marketing landscape
The importance of career advancement opportunities for marketing professionals
What is LS3P’s approach to artificial intelligence
About our featured guestKatie Robinson joined LS3P, an architecture, interiors and planning firm with offices throughout the Southeast, in 2004. She serves as a principal and the firm’s chief marketing officer, playing a pivotal role in driving the firm's practice and business processes. With a keen focus on supporting the firm's vision, Katie works closely with the Executive Committee to ensure comprehensive support across marketing, knowledge management and strategy.
With her extensive expertise in marketing and communications, Katie has spearheaded a transformative journey at LS3P, turning the marketing department into a dynamic creative agency. Under her guidance, the team has excelled in managing both internal and external communications while offering responsive and proactive marketing and creative services. Katie's strategic leadership has been instrumental in the successful creation and implementation of innovative marketing collateral and brand management strategies, with a specific focus on fostering brand trust.
Beyond her contributions to marketing, Katie assumes a vital role within LS3P's business team. Her responsibilities extend to leading the knowledge management efforts within the firm, collaborating closely with the practice team members to prioritize data collection on all projects. Notably, she was instrumental in the establishment of LS3P's pioneering Data Manager Program in 2013, which has solidified her position as a leader in the architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) industry. Katie's acute understanding of the profound connection between knowledge and creativity enables her to bridge the gap between data-driven insights and exceptional design.
Resources mentioned in this episodeCheck out LS3P
Follow LS3P on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Katie Robinson on LinkedIn
Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn
Check out LS3P’s “Human Scale” podcast
Sponsor for this episodeThis episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at [email protected] today.
Transcript[00:00:00] Katie Robinson: I will tell anybody in leadership the key to success is hire people far more creative and smarter than you are.
[00:00:09]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show.
[00:00:27] Michelle Calcote King: Hi everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm the host of this podcast, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for professional services firms, including architecture, engineering, and construction. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
We're going to continue our series talking to architecture firm CMOs. And we're going to just kind of dive into a discussion with one of the leading CMOs at a regional firm about what they're getting right, what are some of their challenges, how you go about building a thriving marketing department.
So yeah, I'm excited to jump into that. Our guest today is Katie Robinson. She's the principal and chief marketing officer at LS3P, an architecture, interiors and planning firm. Welcome to the show, Katie.
[00:01:14] Katie Robinson: Thanks so much for having me, Michelle.
[00:01:16] Michelle Calcote King: I called you all a regional firm, but I don't know if that's correct. How would you describe the firm?
[00:01:21] Katie Robinson: Absolutely. We are a regional firm. Some of our clients and projects take us beyond the Southeast, but our commitment truly is to this area, which is why our 12 offices are lumped throughout the Carolinas, Georgia and Florida. It truly is where our heart lies.
[00:01:40] Michelle Calcote King: Fantastic. Well, tell me a little bit about yourself first. How'd you get into architecture marketing?
[00:01:45] Katie Robinson: I fell into it by chance. I was living in Atlanta straight out of college and working for a publishing company. And it was a very exciting industry. It was the paper industry, so really good content. They moved their operations over to Brussels, Belgium. So, I was looking for a job and back then we didn't really have Google to search. So I got the phone book out and found architecture and found that a wonderful firm, TBS in Atlanta was hiring for a marketing coordinator. So, I kind of stumbled upon it by chance and was lucky enough to get hired there and join their team. So, that's how I kind of found my way into this industry.
[00:02:34] Michelle Calcote King: Love it. It just kind of stuck. I tell my employees some of those stories about before the internet. I can tell there's always this look of disbelief on their face.
[00:02:42] Katie Robinson: I know. It's like this just glaze and it's like, "Really?"
[00:02:47] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, we had to do things differently back then.
Tell me about your department. I think I saw on your LinkedIn profile, you kind of talked about turning the marketing department into a dynamic creative agency. So if you can kind of describe for me the team you've built and the specialties that you have in-house.
[00:03:03] Katie Robinson: Of course. This is my favorite thing to talk about because my team is amazing. I will tell anybody in leadership, the key to success is hire people far more creative and smarter than you are, and then you look really good. And that's what we've built with the marketing team here.
I'll kind of back up. When I first started with the firm in 2004, we had two offices at the time. So we've grown from 2 to 12. Marketing existed, but we were really very reactive in marketing. You know, "Here's a proposal. We need to do it," and that was pretty much it. I think we had a two-page website, no social media, obviously then.
So, my career with LS3P has been interesting because none of the positions that I've been in existed before I was able to show there's a need for it, "Let's try it and let's evolve." So what's happened is I've been able to also build different marketing positions along the way. We used to be very office-centric where there was a marketing individual, we call them coordinators at the time; we've since ditched that title because we don't like it. But in different offices, and they would basically do the responsive stuff, the proposals and interviews. And then if there was an ad that needed to be done, we would throw that together, but there really wasn't a focus on building brand trust and brand awareness or even proactive marketing in general.
We made a small step in around 2015 by putting together a communications team that started to push some of these efforts. But, honestly, it wasn't really until 2020 when we decided to make marketing a firm-wide team instead of office-specific that we really saw a huge change. We did that in the beginning of 2020. The buy-in wasn't great because the office leadership was like, "This is my marketing person. I don't know." Then we all went home to work during the pandemic.
[00:05:17] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:05:18] Katie Robinson: So it was actually perfect timing. Something we thought would take us a year or so to get buy-in had almost immediate buy-in because your person wasn't local anymore.
[00:05:28] Michelle Calcote King: Right. Right. You kind of had to think less in that way. You had to put your framework that way.
[00:05:34] Katie Robinson: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what we found was we had such great collaboration amongst our team members. We were able to put lane processes in place so when you worked with anybody in marketing, you knew what to expect. It was the same process for everyone. That also helps us jump in and help one another and pick up. You know, if somebody gets pulled away for an emergency of any type, somebody can swoop in and help. So we did that and then it kind of helped us to escalate the offerings that we were able to do within marketing. So our group created sub-teams. We have individuals who were really passionate about video and podcasts; individuals passionate about design award submittals; individuals that really like to do booklets and layouts and story crafting, and things like that. So we developed these sub-teams where our marketing specialists can jump in and out. And so they can build their skills; they can do what they're passionate about; they can have a break from all those responsive efforts, the churn and burn of our industry. And then it started escalating from there. We had an individual in the firm, within the marketing team who was very interested in doing experiential graphic design. So now our department offers experiential graphics. So we're able to work with the practice team members, be a little bit billable, which is also nice.
[00:07:02] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, neat.
[00:07:04] Katie Robinson: And then from there clients started approaching us saying, "Can you help with our brand?" "Yes, we would love to." So we've really started to model our team more as a creative agency rather than your typical architectural firm marketing.
[00:07:18] Michelle Calcote King: I love that. Marketing is becoming more complex and having the ability to access a variety of specialists I'm sure is incredibly valuable to your firm.
Tell me about the role of thought leadership in your firm.
[00:07:32] Katie Robinson: Well, it's essential for, actually, both of my loves because I do lead the marketing group. My brain doesn't know boundaries, so the left side and right side just mesh together a lot. So, I also lead the knowledge management side.
[00:07:46] Michelle Calcote King: Okay. Great. Yeah.
[00:07:47] Katie Robinson: Our Foresight blog that we have on our website, it's awesome. It's a great place where we display our thought leadership, and what's so unique about it is it's voices from all over our firm. From student interns all the way to the CEO. That's kind of, you know, a really fun outlet that we have going on with our website. And right now, I would say, and this is probably not a challenge that's just for LS3P, but I think from our industry alone is capturing that thought leadership, especially from the individuals who are getting ready to start their next journey into retirement, and making sure that we can disseminate all of their knowledge and their expertise. And not only being a leader, but, you know, how they put together a C proposal for a client or you know, wall sections or, you know the little things we don't think to ask people. So how do we, as the knowledge management team, extract that knowledge? And then how do we, as the marketing team, communicate that internally as well as externally? That's kind of the balance that we find ourselves in right now, and I know it's something that a lot of firms within our industry and other industries are looking at as people start looking into retirement.
[00:09:13] Michelle Calcote King: A hundred percent. And yeah, the two go really hand in hand. And I love that you use that term knowledge extraction. I use that all the time. It's basically what we're doing, right? We're really kind of pulling knowledge out of these experts' brains and then as marketers, we think, "Okay, what can I do with all this?" But you've also got that dual approach of, you know, just setting the firm up for the future.
I also saw that you guys have a podcast. Tell me a little bit about that.
[00:09:36] Katie Robinson: We do. We do. We have a podcast that recently launched. I was just joking to our fantastic marketing director, Meredith Ray, how I have not been a guest on the podcast yet. But it's okay. She assures me that I will be invited. But our podcast is called "Human Scale." And it's really fun because it's where we sit down with any and all members of LS3P. And we talk about the different facets of what we do, how we do it, but more importantly, who we are as humans. So you get a little bit of what they're doing in their professional life, but you get a whole lot of what makes them who they are.
So it's incredibly fun. Meredith, who I mentioned, hosts along with one of our practice team members, Patrick Cooley, and they have such a fun dynamic together as well. So, I believe we have three external episodes right now and we've recorded our fourth right now. So it's really fun and it's, as you know from this, it is such a great way to connect with people.
[00:10:43] Michelle Calcote King: It really is. Yeah. I've made so many connections, and the way I position it when I talk to clients about it is it's a new way of networking and making relationships. It's just so focused. There's so many benefits you get from it, but you have a focused conversation versus that, you know, happy hour or networking event where you might not get to have that kind of deep dive with someone. You really get to do that in a podcast in a way that I'm not sure you could do in any other way. And it just helps so much with the way people consume media nowadays. And as marketers, we're always looking to repurpose content, and it's just such a great tool for that, for generating that content.
You know, one of the challenges we run up against, especially in a professional services firm, and the reason I transitioned to this is because I think podcasts are a great way to do it, is getting your busy architects — so these are the fee earners, these are people that are billing clients who participate and share their knowledge and be part of the thought leadership. What have you found some ways to engage them, and that kind of gets them involved in ways that integrate with their work life well?
[00:11:54] Katie Robinson: So this is like the million dollar question, right? If anybody had an easy button for this, they would be set on. We're a participant of the Large Firm Roundtable through the American Institute of Architects, and I serve on the marketing subcommittee of that group. This is a conversation we have all the time with my peers in other large firms. And it's the hard one, you know, because you do need the practice team members. And it's not only that you need their time for the proactive stuff and to do things like podcasts, maybe some videos and things like that. You need their time for the responsive stuff, like letters and scopes of work for projects and pursuits. So it's a delicate balance. I think what we've been able to do really successfully is the fact that, as I mentioned before, we do have processes in place.
[00:12:48] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:12:49] Katie Robinson: We also have a lot of pre-existing information that we can pull from; a really extensive text library, for example. So when we do need to engage the expertise of some of our practice team members, they're not starting from scratch. We're giving them something.
I think also remembering that it doesn't necessarily have to be so polished. I mean, we want everything to be perfect. We're perfectionist in marketing, but, you know, having just a casual conversation like we're having right now that you can record and then extract tidbits from later is fine. It doesn't have to be set up in a studio somewhere with perfect lighting and perfect sound and everything.
Taking those opportunities to have just those casual connections with some of our subject matter experts, and then taking it and saying, "Okay, what can we do with it?"
[00:13:47] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:13:48] Katie Robinson: You take a little bit and make a lot. You know, what little tidbits can we pull? Is there a Foresight article in this? Is there maybe an extended podcast in this subject? Maybe we can just write a social media blog on the content. Or is it just internal? You know, so trying to make a lot from a little definitely helps.
I think another thing that is really important to do is explain the "why" to the practice team members and and the billable folks of why we're doing this. You know, a lot of times the reason we're asking for their expertise is because we want to position them to be speakers at industry conferences or conferences our clients are attending. We want to help get them published. So, essentially, we want to help you advance in your career, but you got to help us by telling us what you know.
[00:14:44] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, you're speaking my language with all that. I think, especially with AI emergence, I think the more human we can get, the better people are going to be craving that more and more. So, when you're talking about, it doesn't have to be polished, it can be this kind of conversation, that's what I love about podcasting. There's not this pressure. There's not a, "Hey, write an article, you know, that looms over your head." It's really sitting down and talking about things you know for a half an hour. But I do think, we talk a lot about the skillset of knowledge extraction. You know, that is a real skillset that I'm sure your team has. We shouldn't overlook that, but that's a real key. Like you said, things like showing them that you're not asking them the same information twice. You've done your homework, you're repurposing it, educating them, all those things. So, I love that.
The other thing I want to make sure and ask, cause you've said, a vital aspect — this is in your bio — is the firm's custom dashboard that serves as the communications and data hub for the firm. Tell me a little bit about that.
[00:15:44] Katie Robinson: A long time ago, we developed a LS3P Dashboard, and essentially we did this because at the time there was not an internet solution that we felt really served our needs in terms of being a one-stop-shop for resources, but also allowing us to communicate with one another and share the knowledge that we were collecting. So we created our own. Essentially, the benefit that came from that is it really helped to propel our knowledge management efforts within the firm because if you create something like that, you better have content for it or it's just going to become static.
[00:16:23] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:16:23] Katie Robinson: So for a number of years, our dashboard has been amazing. We're actually in the process of converting to a new internet system that is developed for our industry, and we're really excited about that. But, again, what the dashboard taught us is the importance of things like strategic reporting in order to make really sound decisions about the future of our firm. Sharing resources, like codes. "Where do I go to find codes?" "Well, you go here." So people aren't spending their time reinventing the wheel over and over. And then we have a lot of project data that we have gathered through our data manager program. We put it in our database, but we needed a place to be able to kind of disseminate it, and what does this really mean, you know?
[00:17:09] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Katie Robinson: So we were able to put in, and again, that's where I'm able to totally geek out on all of the knowledge management, data and analytics side, but then also say, "Okay, we're sending this to a group of creatives. It needs to be marketed in a way that creative individuals are going to be able to absorb it."
[00:17:29] Michelle Calcote King: Well, and I think that becomes even more important as a lot of people are remote, you know, with the inundation of information nowadays. You know, you kind of have to, you have to take information, make it very digestible for really anyone, make it very visual, so that's critical.
I'd like to talk about architecture marketing as a whole. So you've been in this for a long time, what have been the big changes and what changes are you kind of looking toward or anticipating?
[00:17:57] Katie Robinson: Yes. I would say proposals are getting more complex. The questions that they ask are getting a little bit more difficult to answer. A lot of it is Database, which is nice to be able to have that at our fingertips.
Competition is also a lot steeper and especially in the Southeast. We have a lot of the national firms making their way into our backyards, which is great. We partner with them often. We love them. But it still is a different level of competition.
[00:18:32] Michelle Calcote King: Sure.
[00:18:32] Katie Robinson: The benefit of that is it's allowed us to see we can do this. We can compete with these national firms. We can step up our game. It's taught us the importance of brand awareness, but also the importance of relationships. And we've developed those among 60 years of business.
[00:18:51] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:18:52] Katie Robinson: So, I would say from a responsive effort, it is just the complexity and the amounts of efforts that we're chasing. For the proactive, you know, social media is all the rage still. It's not going to go away. And it's really been fun to watch, especially over the past five years or so, how our social media presence is so much more targeted. We have an external engagement sub-team. They are fantastic at figuring out which type of posts are going to get the most engagement and reach the most people. But they look at it, not only from a reaching the clients, but reaching possible recruits and future team members, which is just as important. So it's really interesting to see the role that social media is playing in our industry.
And, obviously, you've hit the nail on the head. Things like podcasts are just such a thing that if you would have asked me even just two years ago, "Would we be doing this to help advance marketing in our industry?" I would say, "No. Absolutely not."
[00:20:00] Michelle Calcote King: I know, right? Yeah, I resisted it for a while too. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:05] Katie Robinson: So, I think that, you know, by embracing the trends, embracing technology, we are able to advance our industry in terms of marketing.
What I hope to see more firms, and I think a lot of firms are going in this direction. What I would love to see them promote a little bit more in terms of marketing is also the importance of career advancement for the marketing team members because while we have chosen to be in the architecture industry under that umbrella, I think a lot of firms don't really think, "Oh yeah, they're building their careers, too. So maybe there should be some paths and options for them." So I would love that thinking to twist a little bit. And it's beyond marketing. You know, you're talking about your HR, your technology teams, your convenience teams, everybody who works behind the scenes. It is really important to advocate for them and remember that we're growing our careers here, too.
[00:21:06] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. There's a woman in the legal industry who runs a recruiting firm and she coined this term called "revenue-enablers." So she calls marketers revenue-enablers, and I thought, "That's so smart," because her point was that, you know, while the marketing people within professional services firms might not be billing and generating revenue, they're making that possible and they're supporting it, and so it's such a critical function. And I love that framing of the issue because I think, yeah, that marketing people can often feel, you know, less than, or treated less than, or just not, like you said, you're within a firm where the career path isn't as defined. So, I love to hear that.
Do you see any big trend on the horizon that you guys are looking at and saying, Oh, we gotta keep an eye on that?"
[00:21:51] Katie Robinson: Well, I'll tell you something we need to keep an eye on, whether it's a good one or a bad one, I don't know, but that's AI.
[00:21:58] Michelle Calcote King: I feel like it came out of nowhere, right? Yeah.
[00:22:02] Katie Robinson: Every industry will say the same thing, you know. I mean, just small things like ChatGPT, it's very interesting and incredibly terrifying all at once. You spoke earlier about still the desire for that human connection, and my hope is that still wins out in the end. Although, how we're approaching it is try not to be quite so terrified of it coming, but embrace it without letting it take over our relationships.
[00:22:37] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, we're kind of, we're doing the same. We're dipping our toe. We're kind of, you know, seeing where it can be valuable. Yeah. You know, there's just so many concerns about confidentiality and all of this is just a lot to get your head around, but I'm the same way. You've got to embrace it. You got to see where it's going to fit. I mean, people were saying the same about social media and Google, you know, 20 years ago, so, or whenever. I think social media is actually younger than that. But yeah, now look, it's just a part of our daily lives and just a part of how we work. So, yeah, I think it's just kind of, we've all got to figure this new one out and it keeps us on our toes.
Before we end, and these always go a lot quicker than I thought, is there anything you'd like to share, an important lesson you hope our listeners take away or anything we've talked about that — that we haven't touched on that you'd like to share?
I know it's a big question, but I always like to leave on it. Yeah.
[00:23:31] Katie Robinson: So I can share one of the biggest lessons that I've learned—
[00:23:34] Michelle Calcote King: I would love that. Yeah.
[00:23:35] Katie Robinson: —in not only this industry, but I think in life and in general is the importance of observing and asking questions. And I think a lot of times, especially as we're coming up in our career, a lot of individuals see asking questions as a weakness, but it is such a tremendous strength. To be able to really sit back, observe what people are doing, and then asking just really specific questions about what they're doing, how did they get here? It's so important. I tell individuals, too, if you're in the office and not working remote, take your headset off. Listen to the conversations that are going on around you because you've can learn so much.
When I first started here about a year and a half after I started, I had a really great opportunity because our CEO at the time, Tom Penney, needed some graphic assistance for an upcoming internal meeting with the shareholders. And I thought that was so cool. You know, here I was, I'm new to the firm and I get to see what the shareholders are talking about. It was really interesting. And so I started working side-by-side with Tom on that, as well as in other internal meetings, and I was absorbing all of the things that they were saying, but then I was questioning it. You know, I was questioning, I was talking to our finance person about the financials, cause you know, I had three whole classes in accounting, so obviously I knew what I was doing. But just understanding what is a utilization rate? Why does it matter? And, you know, asking all of these questions that had nothing to do with marketing. I was able to learn so much about our industry and how business worked. When I did start to really build in my career, I was able to connect them and say, "Okay, well, marketing can actually help you, Finance Group, because you're having to explain finances to a bunch of creative people, let us help you with that. So I would say just that was probably the biggest thing that I learned was that asking questions is not a sign of weakness. You know, vulnerability isn't a sign of weakness and that's the way that you can truly grow as a person and also grow in your career.
[00:25:55] Michelle Calcote King: That's really important advice. It's something I tell my team all the time, too, especially when you work in these expertise-driven industries. You're working with people who have very deep knowledge in a particular area, so it's really critical that you ask questions cause the more you know about their challenges and their knowledge, the better you are as a marketer. So, agree with that a hundred percent.
Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for joining us. So we've been talking to Katie Robinson of C3PO—no, just kidding—LS3P. And Katie, if people wanted to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do so?
[00:26:31] Katie Robinson: Sure. They can send me an email. It's just [email protected]. So it's pretty easy. Also LinkedIn. Use social media.
[00:26:39] Michelle Calcote King: Yes. Good one. All right. Well, thank you so much.
[00:26:42] Katie Robinson: Awesome. Thank you.
[00:26:45]: Thanks for listening to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.
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