Afleveringen
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In this season two finale, recorded for a live audience, host Leah Sarich dives into the critical role of ecosystem support in driving the success of tech startups, featuring insights from a panel of dynamic leaders. Terry Rock, CEO of Platform Calgary, starts the discussion by highlighting their efforts in connecting innovators with capital and resources, supporting over 600 tech companies through specialized programs.
Shelley Kuipers, Managing Partner of The51, shares her vision of activating $2.5 billion in capital for women-led businesses by 2030, emphasizing the transformative impact of community and advisory support. Martin Toner from ATB Capital Markets highlights the bank’s commitment to Founders through lending, venture capital, and equity research, ensuring long-term support to Alberta’s growing tech sector. Amreesh Khanna, dentist and Founder of the OraQ platform offers an inspiring perspective on the transition to becoming a Founder and creating innovative technology for his industry. He underscores the value of mentorship, community support, and an interconnected ecosystem for overcoming challenges.
The panelists collectively explore the importance of collaboration, networking, and shared resources in fostering innovation in Alberta and Canada. The conversation concludes with a shared vision for Calgary as a leading tech hub fueled by investment, mentorship, and a vibrant community ready to support the next generation of entrepreneurs.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Newcomer Entrepreneur Program - Calgary Catholic Immigration Services Alberta CatalyzerNational Bank Investor HubThe Rainforest: The Secret to Building the Next Silicon Valley by Victor W. Hwang and Greg HorowittSAIT - Centre for Innovation and Research in Advanced Manufacturing and MaterialsOCIF - Opportunity Calgary Investment FundBDC - SWOT AnalysisVirtual GurusCoolITSteve Blank on The Secret History of Silicon ValleyAstronomic AudioMaven MediaAbout Terry Rock | CEO of Platform Calgary
Dr. Terry Rock is President & CEO of Platform Calgary, an organization focused on driving growth and velocity in Calgary’s tech and innovation ecosystem. Platform works with over 100 partners to advance startup Founders, investors, tech talent and corporate innovators in the new Platform Innovation Centre in Calgary’s East Village.
Terry’s previous experience has covered a wide variety of contexts and industries. He has been Executive Director of the Alberta Small Brewers Association and founding CEO of Calgary Arts Development Authority. He worked on civic partnerships at The City of Calgary and was an assistant professor in strategy at the University of Calgary.
Terry has contributed to the community through volunteering on the TELUS Calgary Community Board and the boards of Sled Island Music & Arts Festival, Hillhurst United Church, Calgary Cultural Capital 2012, the 2008 and 2016 Calgary-hosted Juno Awards, and was on the founding board of cSPACE Projects. He was Chair of the AIESEC Canada board where he had been President in the early 90’s.
Dr. Rock holds a PhD in Management with a focus on strategic management, entrepreneurship and innovation from Texas Tech University, and a Bachelor of Commerce in Marketing (with Distinction) from the University of Saskatchewan.
About Shelley Kuipers | Co-Founder and CEO of The51
Shelley Kuipers is investing in the world she wants to live in. As an activist in business, entrepreneurship and investment, Shelley likes to take on the status quo, and seek out democratized business models and platforms.
Prior to co-founding The51, Shelley founded crowdsourcing company Chaordix and technology and marketing firm, Stormworks. She was also the Co-Founder of IOVIA, based in London, UK. Shelley also collaboratively runs her family office Adventure Capital, with her partner and two sons. Shelley has had the opportunity to live and work in Canada, the U.S. and the UK, as well as lead commercialisation efforts across global markets.
Shelley has been early-stage investing for more than 20 years. Her investment experience started in oil and gas, but she quickly diversified her investments into the tech sector with a focus on innovation-driven companies across many sectors. To date her family office has made +30 early-stage investments. Shelley supports many Founders, and ventures as an advisor, board observer and director.
About Amreesh Khanna | Founder of OraQ AI
Dr. Amreesh Khanna refers to himself as a professional tooth enthusiast, more commonly known as a Dentist. He has a deep passion for the integration of AI/ML in clinical applications and is at the forefront of advancing precision dental care through his start-up OraQ AI. This company is dedicated to redefining ethical dental practice growth by prioritizing optimal patient care.
With over 17 years of clinical dental experience, Dr. Khanna has encountered numerous challenges and successes on his entrepreneurial journey as a dental practice owner. In terms of patient care, he has been involved in complex treatments including dental implants, bone and gum grafting, IV conscious sedation, dental sleep medicine for patients with obstructive sleep apnea, and oral rehabilitation for individuals with complex TMD, tooth wear, and bite concerns.
Dr. Khanna remains actively engaged in his field as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Alberta Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry. Additionally, he has established his own dental education platform called ADEPT Dental Education, which aims to drive accelerated growth on the clinical and business sides of Dentistry.
Community involvement has always held great importance in Dr. Khanna’s life. As a dental student, he founded the SHINE Dental Clinic in Edmonton to provide dental care to those in need. He also leads a non-profit organization called Cause to Smile, which strives to "do good beyond the walls of our clinics".
Away from his professional endeavors, Dr. Khanna enjoys traveling with his wife and two young daughters, creating cherished memories that will last a lifetime.
About Martin Toner | Managing Director, Institutional Equity Research, ATB Capital Markets
Martin is a seasoned sell-side analyst with 15 years of capital markets experience, specializing in North American Growth & Innovation companies. Currently, he provides coverage for 12 leading firms in this sector. Martin has a proven track record of outperformance, honed through extensive experience managing North American and U.S. equity core, income, hedge, and ESG-focused funds.
An expert in stock selection, fundamental analysis, risk management, financial modeling, and macroeconomic research, Martin has consistently demonstrated his ability to deliver results in complex market environments. His leadership experience includes serving on boards of directors, acting as a partner, and holding the role of Chief Compliance Officer.
From 2010 to 2019, Martin was a registered advising portfolio manager, further solidifying his reputation as a trusted and accomplished professional in the investment management space.
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Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Terry Rock:
Website: PlatformCalgary.comLinkedin: Terry RockContact Shelley Kuipers:
Website: the51.comLinkedin: Shelley KuipersContact Amreesh Khanna:
Website: www.oraq.aiLinkedin: Amreesh KhannaContact Martin Toner:
Website: ATB Equity ResearchLinkedin: Martin Toner -
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Amaan Banwait, Co-Founder and Chief Commercialization Officer at PurposeMed, takes us through his journey from a management consultant to a healthcare-focused leader with the Clinton Foundation to Co-Founder of PurposeMed. He explains how each of PurposeMed’s brands serve different underserved communities, including Freddie—which supports HIV prevention, Frida—which focuses on ADHD and mental health diagnosis and treatment, and Foria—which offers expert gender-affirming care.
Amaan shares the complex challenges PurposeMed faces in overcoming barriers, such as social stigma towards their target audience and high specialist wait times. He also discusses how PurposeMed’s tech-driven approach enables patients to receive comprehensive care from diagnosis to treatment, no matter where they live in North America.
Amaan also gives insight into PurposeMed’s shift from a revenue-focused business model to a bottom-line-oriented business model—an essential transition for building a sustainable organization in healthcare without compromising results. As Amaan opens up about his personal growth and leadership journey, he reveals his commitment to continue making a global impact in healthcare, with future aspirations that include applying PurposeMed’s learnings to emerging markets. This conversation offers an inspiring look into the complexities of healthcare innovation and the personal drive needed to make a lasting impact in the lives of others.
About Amaan Banwait
Amaan is a Co-Founder and Chief Commercialization Officer of PurposeMed. PurposeMed delivers complex healthcare to underserved communities through various brands such as Freddie, which is Canada's largest HIV prevention service and Frida, which provides mental healthcare online. Amaan was previously the Co-Founder of Ilara Health, a VC-backed provider of affordable diagnostics for African clinics. He was also previously a manager at the Clinton Foundation, helping the Government of Uganda scale up its HIV/AIDS programs, and a consultant at Bain & Company. He holds an MBA from The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and a BComm from UBC.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Ilara HealthThe Clinton FoundationFreddieFridaForiaLandmark—
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Amaan Banwait | PurposeMed:
Website: purposemed.comLinkedin: AmaanBanwait--
Transcript:
Amaan 00:02
Going back for me, growing up, I always knew I wanted to do something good for the world. I wanted to make a difference. I didn't know what that was, that you know, the flavour of that changed many times over, but ultimately, sort of kicked off with my time at the Clinton Foundation. And, you know, I've kind of weaved impact into my work and my story in different ways since then.
Leah 00:20
Hi, thanks for being here. And welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more Founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems. And they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So why would they do this? Let's find out. Joining me today is Amaan Banwait, Co-Founder and Chief Commercialization Officer of PurposeMed, a company improving access to complex health care for underserved communities. Amaan, thank you so much for being here.
Amaan 01:19
Thank you so much for having me.
Leah 01:20
I just love the work that you are doing, to be very clear. I've done a little bit of research on you, and I'm deeply impressed. You're the Co-Founder of another company as well, with PurposeMed, but also Ilara Health in Africa. Both PurposeMed and Ilara, providing healthcare to underserved communities. This is incredible and deeply important work. Can you tell me, first, how you even got into healthcare as a Co-Founder, why this was something you wanted to tackle?
Amaan 01:44
Yeah, it's a great question. It goes back to my early days in management consulting. I worked for a firm called Bain in Toronto, and always knew I wanted to do international development work, and an opportunity came up to join the Clinton Foundation in East Africa, and Clinton Foundation happened to focus on healthcare. I wasn't necessarily drawn to healthcare, but I was really drawn to their approach, which was taking kind of business people from consulting, from finance, placing them alongside government, specifically the Ministry of Health, to really try and scale the efforts of governments in the countries that Clinton Foundation operated in. And so this approach of kind of taking business people, taking business approaches to like development problems, really resonated with me. And so, you know, fast forward, I joined them. Found myself in Uganda, where I spent two and a half years working side by side with the Ministry of Health on HIV, initiatives, on malaria, initiatives. It was professionally very rewarding that started my love for healthcare and my love and passion for HIV, which is a core focus for PurposeMed today. Uganda is also the country my mother was raised in, so it was very valuable for me personally as well.
Leah 03:00
Oh, how wonderful. That's incredible to do such impactful work and have such a history as well. I also read, though, that you really have always wanted to help. You've been that little kid that was always like, I gotta figure out a way to help and do something important. Does that resonate with you?
Amaan 03:18
It does. It sounds a bit cheesy when I say it, and when I hear it, but it does.
Leah 03:25
So this goes way back for you.
Amaan 03:27
Going back for me, growing up, I always knew I wanted to do something good for the world. I wanted to make a difference. I didn't know what that was, that you know, the flavour of that changed many times over, but ultimately, sort of kicked off with my time at the Clinton Foundation. And, you know, I've kind of weaved impact into my work and my story in different ways since then.
Leah 03:51
Wonderful. All right, well, let's dig a little bit into PurposeMed. Tell me exactly what it is and what you're trying to achieve.
Amaan 03:58
Our mission is to improve access to care for underserved communities. And so what we do is we build healthcare verticals that tackle problems that specifically face underserved communities and underserved conditions. We've got a few different brands. One is Freddie, that's focused on HIV prevention and HIV treatment. So if I tackle HIV prevention quickly for a second, there's a pill that is 99% effective at preventing HIV. If you take it every day, you essentially won't get HIV. It's free for most people in Canada, in the US, but there's still huge barriers for people accessing that treatment, and those barriers vary from people not knowing about the treatment, clinicians not knowing about it, there being stigma and accessing it. And so what we set out to do, and this was really kind of the start of our major brand, Freddie, and us really kind of achieving product market fit as a business, is, how do we from education to diagnosis to delivery, create an end to end experience that makes it really easy, convenient and free to access this treatment. I can definitely go more into that, but we took that model with Freddie and HIV prevention, and we've extended it to other areas of healthcare, from HIV treatment to mental health care to a gender affirming care. And it's you know, really, how do we take these conditions that people may not understand? How do we use various forms of community and digital marketing to actually educate end users, many of which don't even know they you know they have this issue or have this need, and how do we make it seamless from getting diagnosed to getting all the care you need, to getting delivery of medication all in one place.
Leah 05:45
That's incredible. And you even got ADHD in there too, right? With Frida?
Amaan 05:50
We do? Yeah. So Frida is a brand that focuses on adult ADHD as well as anxiety and depression care.
Leah 05:57
So these are really complex problems that you are trying to solve here. And you've, you've talked a little bit about that, but I am very curious about the barriers to access this care. Why do you think those barriers exist? And it's, they're very, very complex, but I'm very curious about how you think about solving that.
Amaan 06:18
There's numerous issues here, so one of which is people may not know they have these issues, or that solutions to these issues may exist. So if I take ADHD care for a second, you know, a lot of people have undiagnosed ADHD, the majority of folks and they may not realize that the symptoms that they're experiencing are actually consistent with ADHD. So that's one side of the coin. The other side of the coin is, when you think about family physicians in Canada and really in the world, there's such a breadth of things that they need to cover that they may not be fully up to speed or comfortable with some niche areas that can fall in the specialist realm of care. So, ADHD is an example, it’s often treated by psychiatrists. HIV prevention medication may not be something that's totally well known and understood by all family doctors, and so these are areas that you may get referred to a specialist for. However, Canada has the longest waiting times to see a specialist out of all OECD countries. And so, as we all know, it takes forever to see a specialist. You have this education problem, both for patients, occasionally with family physicians who are doing amazing work but are overburdened, right? And a lot of, 20% of Canadians don't even have a family physician. And so we try and solve that problem by going direct to patients, educating them about the services we offer, about how some of the symptoms they might be experiencing can be solved. That's really the entry point.
Leah 07:52
Fascinating. And explain to me how the technology is really helping get in front of these people you're trying to reach.
Amaan 07:59
We don't think of it necessarily as the technology. We think of it is the clinical experience that is enabled by technology. And so it starts from the marketing experience, but from the moment someone lands on the site, you know, we're thinking about that whole experience end to end, from, you know, the minute they land on the site, all the way to them getting their refill prescriptions, and how do we make that as smooth and easy as possible? So as a starting point, for example, with all of our brands, part of what we're doing at the intake is that the starting point is a medical intake questionnaire. We've put a lot of thought into the design, not only from a UI/UX perspective, but also from a clinical perspective. How do we identify the people that are a right fit for our services, and for those who are not, give them that feedback you know immediately, and try and direct them to you know where they may go for the care that's appropriate for them? So we there's a lot of people that, unfortunately we we can't see, and we just let folks know that right off the bat. Especially with our mental health brand Frida, there's about 75% of people who come to us where we say, Hey, we're unfortunately not the right fit for you. So that's one element of… part of it is technology, part of it is just smart design, and we extend that into the clinical experience in seeing our providers, how the technology we build for our providers in the back end, and how we deliver a clinical experience outside of the actual visit with the provider, because that experience kind of continues. We're trying to make the whole experience as seamless as possible.
Leah 09:36
It’s amazing. It's very challenging work. I don't know how focused you are with the patients in a sort of one to one situation, but I would imagine that you would hear very challenging and difficult stories. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? What that's like?
Amaan 09:51
We hear those stories all the time, unfortunately and fortunately. I say fortunately because it's positive affirmation and feedback. Back for the work that we're doing. It's unfortunate because, you know, the patients that we see are a fraction of the patients that need health care, both in this country and, you know, in other countries, and it speaks to the experiences that patients have. Through our work with Freddie we've heard of numerous, numerous stories of patients facing stigma, facing judgment in speaking to family doctors. Recently heard about a patient that was asked about their relationship with God by their family doctor. Through our brand Frida, we often hear about stories from patients who have gone 20 years experiencing symptoms, have been invalidated by the healthcare system, access care through Frida, and feel like they've they've started a new life. We get multiple stories, and you'll read this in our Google reviews, of patients breaking down, crying on the phone, and our clinicians crying with them. You know there's kind of public reviews about this, and we've heard numerous stories from our gender affirming care Foria, that the care that we provide has literally saved patients lives. And so it's, it's powerful. We're humbled by the feedback that we get. We also recognize it's, it's an unfortunate sign of the system that we have, that patients have these issues. And you know, we're happy to just be making a small dent in solving some of the healthcare challenges that we face in this country and globally.
Leah 11:26
No kidding. I'm really curious about how you personally feel about doing this work. I mean, the impact you're having is extraordinary, but it's very, very challenging work, and I'm curious about you, as you know, a Co-Founder of this company. How does this feel to you to do this work?
Amaan 11:45
It's funny, you ask. I think it seesaws, right? Part of growing a company and growing it very quickly is tackling the hardest problems that exist in the organization, right? And that's part of the role of a Co-Founder. It's part of the role of anyone in a startup, really, is just to lean into the difficult parts. And that's what we try and do at Purpose Med. And so it is challenging. And I think everyone here would say it is, it's challenging work because we lean into those challenges. The flip side of it is, you know, the feedback that we get from patients, and the growth that we see in the number of patients that we can serve, the change in health outcomes that we can see, because we measure that closely, is validating for us that we are, that we're having an impact. And so it kind of makes it all worth it.
Leah 12:39
Yeah, I bet, I bet. You mentioned this briefly off the top that you did work with the Clinton Foundation in Uganda, where you were instrumental in 1000s of HIV positive infants receiving drug treatment. I would love to hear a little bit more about that work specifically. ,
Amaan 12:54
Yeah, so my role at the Clinton Foundation was to work with the government at sort of three different levels. So the first level was at a policy level, and so as an organization at the Clinton Foundation, we had a team of scientists, researchers, physicians, that were always looking at the evidence around the latest and greatest new medications that were coming to the market that were either more efficacious or equally as efficacious as existing drugs in use, but lower cost. My job was to take the output from that team and advocate with governments. Hey, let's move to this new medication, or let's move to that medication. And how do we connect you with the experts? You can have the right conversations, and we can move this through the system very quickly. That was step one. Step two was, okay, now we have a policy change. We as a country are moving to this new medication. My job was to actually get that medication into the hands of patients. And so it was working with donors, working with the financers of medication, ordering the medication, getting it into distribution centers. And I was literally building, you know, with the government, the distribution plans to get it into actual clinics. And there were over 5000 clinics in Uganda. And then the third element of the work was designing training so that all the clinicians would sort of be able to understand these new treatments and administer them safely, so sort of supporting the government on those training plans. And so it's kind of, you know, how do we go from research, you know, comes out around a new medication to getting it in patients hands as quickly as possible, supporting the government in all levels of the system. And so it was really fun, powerful work.
Leah 14:42
I bet, an incredible training ground, of course, for what you're doing at purpose med. But here again, I mean, it just strikes me that you must have seen some really difficult cases there. I'm thinking of these, you know, infants that need this treatment so desperately. These are infants we're talking about. I mean, how do you emotionally deal with that. This is life changing work you're doing for babies, for heaven's sake.
Amaan 15:04
Yeah, it was, it was really tough. I have memories of being in HIV clinics and seeing people and children that were, you know, affected by HIV. And you know, there's numerous symptoms that you can physically see when, you know, when someone is really affected, and you know treatment existed, but that didn't mean necessarily that people were all able to access that treatment. And so you you saw it in health clinics, and it was, it was really sad. It was, it was really powerful, and it was kind of motivation to keep going. But, you know, goes without saying, especially the kids. Yeah, it was. It was really hard.
Leah 15:49
Wow. So how did you cope with that reality?
Amaan 15:53
Yeah, it's a great question. You know, it was, it was a while back, so I don't, I don't remember specifically, but I think it was, you know, keep going right. And I think, honestly, I don't know if I coped with it particularly well, and that I kind of would put it in a box and try and turn it into fuel to, you know, work hard. And we all worked really hard at the Clinton Foundation, and broadly, folks at the Ministry of Health, people understood what was at stake, but at the same time it was sort of put it in a box, try not to, like, feel all of it and deal with it. And, you know, maybe it wasn't the healthiest of approaches. Probably a little more mature of a perspective and approach on how to deal with those things now than I did, you know at that time, which was 10 years ago.
Leah 16:43
Right, right.That makes sense. We mature, don't we? But what I'm hearing here is a common theme, really, sort of a passion for healthcare, is as a human right. Would that be accurate?
Amaan 16:56
100%. 100% and you know, if I think about our mission at PurposeMed, we started in Canada. We've expanded to the US. So we've been operating in the US for seven, eight months now, which is great. The stats in the US are in some ways better, in many ways worse than in Canada. As an example, the CDC released a stat that one in two gay black men in the south in the US will get HIV. It's a little dated, but it's, it's probably one in three to one in two, so it's really sad, right? And that's the US. And so our mission will be a global one. It's a North American one for now, but, yeah, healthcare is, is a fundamental human right, and there's a lot of work to be done.
Leah 17:38
No kidding, everyone that sits in this chair, I always ask them to think back to the building of the company that they're working on right now. And a major roadblock, one of those Do or Die situations where you're like, I have no idea if we're gonna figure this out moment, and I love to hear that story and what you learned from it, and how you moved through it. Is there one that comes to mind?
Amaan 17:59
There's definitely one that comes to mind. So in one sentence, it was our transition from a revenue focused company to a bottom line focused company. And we went through that. You know, everyone knows kind of the tech winter that we went through. We went through this transition a bit earlier than that period, I think we we've always been very disciplined from a capital standpoint, in how we run the company. But to get a little more specific, we were growing and scaling Frida, our mental health brand, and we were seeing such tremendous revenue growth. And as we saw that growth, it was just, how do we keep up with the demand? And so it's just throw everything at it. Grow, grow, grow, grow. And we saw cracks in the business model, but we never got very deep in them, until finally, we're like, holy crap. Like, something's going on. We're burning a ton of money. Like, I think we know what the issues are, but we don't really deeply understand them. And it took us kind of saying, like, hold on, we gotta stop everything to deeply understand this. And so this is now going back about a year and a half. We did that, we did that deep work to, like, really understand, okay, let's, like, model this to the bottom line and model it, you know, every single kind of way you could and understand it. We had a fundamental flaw in our business model, and it, honestly, it sounds so simple when I when I think back, but, but I'll oversimplify a little bit. But the way Frida used to work is you pay for an initial assessment with the clinician to get diagnosed for ADHD, and we also covered anxiety, depression in that. And if you were diagnosed, and if you chose to move forward with care with Frida, you could then move into a subscription where you pay $30 a month and you get as many visits as you would want with the clinician in that time. And the thinking was, you know, people would sort of over utilize care in the early days, but use less care in the later days, and it would sort of all balance out. What we found was that patients were using a ton of care in the very early days because, hey, it was available, right? And you can't blame them. It was part of their subscription. And we were also creating, in our desire to create an 11 out of 10 experience. It was also the desire of our clinicians to see patients as frequently as possible, right? It was like, Hey, you, you have this little thing. Hey, book it with me three days from now. Let's talk about it again. No big deal. Like no issues was too small, and so we just saw massive utilization of care, and it was like we were just hiring clinicians like crazy, and it just wasn't sustainable, right? The rate at which we were getting people into that stage versus people kind of getting into the later stages, like the numbers just didn't work. And so we just sort of confront this head on and make a change to the business model very quickly, where we move from a subscription to a pay-per visit model, which was very hard from a technical standpoint, from a change management, management perspective, from a communication standpoint, to our patients. Ultimately, it was, it was a successful change. And through that, and through a number of other things, we were able to cut, you know, our burn rate substantially to a place now where, you know where we are, even though positive and just about profitable. But it was a really hard change. It was really hard change. So happy, I know it was high level, happy to go in more detail on that, but that was like a very pivotal sort of moment for the company.,
Leah 21:40
Well, of course, what I'm curious about is, because it's called the Founder Mindset. How did you feel about that? Like, how did you even think through that? I mean, I'm assuming it must have kept you up at night as you were moving through this process. What did it feel like to go, wow, we really need to change everything, and we need to do it fast.
Amaan 21:58
It felt terrible, you know, and there were, there were, there were kind of more issues at play that I would say were adjacent to that. But, you know, we were, at the time, burning a ton of money, and by most startup standards, and for our stage, it wasn't a ton of money to us, it felt like a ton of money. And for the Founders, we were we were losing sleep. We were like, What is going on? And we need to confront this like now, and we need to get this under control. And we were actively working on it, but we were still burning money. It was very, very stressful. I think the flip side of it was, we have 1000s of people entrusting us with their care, we need to make a change to the care that they're providing. How do we do this and ensure that we are not compromising on the outcomes? It may mean that patients aren't able to see us as frequently, but we are in no way compromising on the outcomes. And you know, that was also a stressful part of it. And so there was business model changes, there were clinical changes simultaneously. There was just sort of the stress. So yeah, it was one of the most stressful periods of my life, for sure. But ultimately, we made it through.
Leah 23:15
Clearly you did.
Leah 23:20
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Leah 23:42
So looking back on that now, what have you learned about yourself, particularly as a Founder, and then we can talk about what you learned for the business, but as a Founder, what did you learn about yourself having moved through that experience?
Amaan 23:55
Yeah, that's a great question. I think what I learned is, as a Founder, you're constantly being confronted with problems and needing to lean into the hard problems in the company. And it is nice to lure yourself into, I wouldn't call them vanity metrics, but the things that are really going well, right? And so for us, it's like, oh, look at this amazing revenue growth. And yeah, we've got, we've got a cost problem, but we're gonna figure that out. Like, look at how fast revenue is growing, right? Let's just, like, not think about the cost, or let's just push that a little bit. And what I learned about myself was, you know, how I fall into that trap, right? And how that's that's a pattern, like, focus on the good and not deal with the bad. And I see that showing up, you know, now, and I've learned from it. We've learned from it as a company, to put it very simply, model everything to the bottom line and be realistic about costs. Costs are always higher than you think they'll be. So there's been those kind of business learnings, but I think it's learnings, you know, for me as a Founder and a human being. So yeah, I'm glad you asked that question, because it kind of brings that, that learning to the forefront for me again.
Leah 25:06
I'm so glad it's one of the things I love to ask in this podcast, because I think Founders don't get asked about that part. They get asked about, okay, how does your business model change, and how has your product-market fit changed? But they don't get asked about, what did you learn personally? How does this change how you are as a leader, as a Founder?
Amaan 25:24
100% and that's that's giving me the motivation to lean into some of the problems we have today. So thank you, Leah.
Leah 25:35
I love it. I’m glad to help. That's what we like to do. So we've talked about some of the hard things, but I really want to talk about what you love, about being the Founder of a company. Tell me about what is the fun part that you love?
Amaan 25:47
There's a lot to love. I think the thing I love most is creating. It's a very fortunate position to be in a company that is seeing growth, is is sort of seeing success. We are in the fortunate position that we get to use the capital that we have, and, you know, sort of the approaching break even, etc, like, use what we're what we have, and what we're about to generate to fuel the creation of new services. It just so happens that the services we get to create benefit people's lives. That is our mission, right? If they don't, then we don't do them. And so it is very fun. And so as one example, you know, as I mentioned, we launched in the US 7-8 months ago. That launch has been going incredibly well. Right now, we're focused on HIV prevention and STI prevention in the US, and we are about to launch HIV treatment, so care for people living with HIV in the US, and that's something I'm quite involved in. And creating that from the ground up, in a country where the US is really lagging its HIV treatment goals, and HIV is on the rise in both the US and Canada, is very exciting. So that creation, thinking about it, from the marketing standpoint, from a clinical standpoint, from operations standpoint, you know, end to end, I love it.
Leah 27:04
Awesome. That's such important work. So this is fun work for you. Obviously, I can see it. Your face lights up when you talk about it. It's wonderful. How does it, though, affect your personal life? Because it's all consuming, whether it's good or bad. How does it affect your day to day life? Because, of course, you need to stay well if you want to keep executing, right?
Amaan 27:21
Yeah, it's hard, like, you know, it's been really hard, you know, I, I've done a better job over the years of putting constraints on my hours. I found it very difficult to shut off, because even when you're outside of those hours, you're thinking about things, right? And so it's, it's hard for me to be present with family during the week. I've just given hours and mind space about to sacrifice a lot of relationships, like with extended family, with friends, like I only have time for work and my immediate family and a handful of friends, and like, That's it, and I've come to terms with that. So I'm at a stage now where I'm like, Hey, I'm doing work on myself so that I can shut off and I can be, you know, more present outside of sort of work hours. So this is more sustainable, right? Because our mission like, we feel like we're just getting started, and so we got to keep going. But you know, it's how do I do it in a way that's, like, sustainable for for me, physically, mentally, all of those things. And, yeah, it's been really hard for me that that part is has been one of the biggest costs, if you will, of being a Founder.
Leah 28:32
Yeah, I hear that often on this podcast, but I also hear that a lot of people are starting to recognize it and figure out, okay, well, I actually do need to address this? Would you be willing to share you had mentioned you're doing some work now. Would you be willing to share what some of that work looks like for you?
Amaan 28:46
Yeah, I'm going through personal development and sort of leadership transformation program. It's called Atlas. There's a bunch of them out there, Landmark etc, that I think is a more popular one that people have heard of. So I found that to be really powerful. Outside of that, I was previously working with a coach that, honestly, I would say, was like half coach, half therapist. He had this sort of off board beams full with other higher paying clients. And so I'm on the search for, for for another coach, but I think it's like Coach, therapist as well, and then spending time on like, gratitude and journaling. And, you know, we all hear about those different tactics, meditation, etc, etc. For me, it's like taking less of a tactical approach and more, like, how do I just be mindful going into each day and trying to sort of retain that throughout the day.
Leah 29:40
Absolutely, thank you for sharing that. I know we've talked about it already a little bit, but I know that one of the things that continues to motivate you and drive you and fuel your passion, if you will, is this idea of impact. We think about impact even here at Thin Air Labs, creating meaningful human impact with the companies that we support. How do you think about creating impact?
Amaan 30:02
Yeah, it's a great question. To put it somewhat simply, its number of people impacted times depth of impact times likelihood that that impact would have been created if you didn't do the thing you did. And so you know, as I think about our work at PurposeMed, and like my work personally, actually, a good example of this was our decision to launch a gender affirming care service in Canada called Foria, where, you know, gender affirming care is is a problem everywhere in the world. It's also maybe less of a problem in Canada than it is in other places, but it's still a problem. And, you know, honestly, the economics of it are not great. The market is like, you know, there's a lot of people who need it, but it's still a relatively small market, not a lot of money to be made. And we were deciding, like, do we do this? And we're like, at best, this will be break even for us, like at best, but if we don't do this, no one will do it. That was our belief, and we also believe we were the best people to do it, because through our work with Freddie, we were primarily working with the LGBTQ2S+ community. We have a lot of expertise around LGBTQ care, and so we're like, hey, like we're the best to do this. No one else will do it. We just got to do it. And we will, like, if it's break even, great, if it's not, it's not, but this is, like, our mission, and we just have to do it. And so that, I think, for me, is an example of that third pillar of, like, the incrementality of what you're doing, you know, as I think about hitting those first two pieces for us at PurposeMed, you know, eventually, and this is not going to happen tomorrow, but we want to take purpose med internationally where, you know, the reality is the healthcare needs that people have are so much deeper and so much more, you know, basic, than some of the challenges we have in North America. And I think the depth of impact that you can have there is very significant. So, yeah, that's kind of my framework for impact personally. And yeah, so much to do.
Leah 32:12
It can be overwhelming. I would imagine.
Amaan32:14
It is. It is overwhelming because you think about the individual power that we each have to make a difference, but you realize, hey, it's like you got to start small and take put one foot in front of the other.
Leah 32:25
Yeah, definitely. As we come to close here, I always ask you are a Co-Founder of this incredible company, PurposeMed, you're writing the story, if you will, for PurposeMed, how do you hope the story goes for PurposeMed.
Amaan 32:38
I hope the story goes that we put a meaningful dent in HIV transmission rates in North America in the next five years. From some of our data, we're already doing that in Canada. We'll extend that to the US. And you know, if you take a 10 year view, we're putting a dent in HIV transmission rates globally, both by preventing HIV and also treating folks who have HIV. And there's a concept called treatment as prevention, which I won't kind of bore folks with, but that kind of fuels the HIV prevention mission. So yeah, that's really like how I think the the story goes for PurposeMed that I would love, the story that I would love to see for purpose.
Leah 33:24
Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Okay, then we need to talk about you as a Co-Founder, specifically. How do you hope your own personal story goes? What would you like to tackle?
Amaan 33:34
You know, it's like, at some point the like, if I'm just honest, like, at some point the purpose med journey will end, right? And at some point it'll make sense to like pass the baton to someone who is more capable than me. My hope is to keep growing it and to keep working towards those impact goals that I outlined. And then my goal is to take everything that I've learned from the PurposeMed journey and apply it to the next thing that I do. And that's what I've been doing for the last you know, however many years, like I founded multiple companies before PurposeMed and some really took off, right? And different levels of sort of success or quasi success, but there were so many learnings there, and PurposeMed has been an incredible journey. It's like take all of that and apply it to the next thing, which will most likely be in healthcare, which will most likely be in emerging markets, which will most likely be focused on, you know, underserved people. That's kind of what I know, and we'll keep doing it.
Leah 34:34
I look forward to hearing more about that. Amaan, thank you so much for this conversation.
Amaan 34:39
Thank you so much for having me, Leah, and thank you so much for the thoughtful questions. This has been an awesome discussion.
Leah 34:53
As the lead investor in Thin Air Labs - Fund One, Sandstone Asset Management believes in building the commons through innovative Founders who are creating meaningful, positive impact, both locally and globally. Sandstone is doing just that by backing the next generation of emerging entrepreneurs. Picture this, a Founder start-up goes from idea to international impact supported by strategic investors who believed in their vision. That's the power of Sandstone's approach. Sandstone doesn't just manage wealth, they cultivate it, supporting Founders at all stages. Visit sandstoneam.com to learn how sandstone builds legacies that last.
Leah 35:37
Calgary is a city of innovative companies, ideas, and talent. The Opportunity Calgary Investment Fund is investing in Calgary's future by finding, fueling, and fostering innovation to build a diverse and resilient economy. Find out more at www.opportunitycalgary.com
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Jeff Adamson discusses his passion for putting Canada’s prairies on the map by building Neo Financial. From humble beginnings in Saskatoon to scaling SkipTheDishes, Jeff dives into his motivation to establish Neo as a transformative digital bank by building an ambitious team of mission-driven talent. He offers advice on navigating entrepreneurial challenges, from managing runaway demand to harnessing his sports background for success in business.
Jeff's story is a testament to the power of community, innovation, and hard work. Jeff also reflects on the importance of trust, the evolution of digital banking, and how Neo is creating a future where Canadians can access a streamlined, customer-centred financial experience. For Jeff, Neo is more than a tech company—it’s a mission to keep Canada’s brightest talent in the prairies and create lasting impact across industries.
*Neo Financial was recently ranked #1 on The Globe and Mail's Top Growing Companies List
**Neo Financial topped Deloitte's 2024 Fast 50 List which recognizes Canada's fastest growing tech companies
About Jeff Adamson
Jeff Adamson is Chief Commercial Officer and Co-Founder of Neo Financial, a new and better way to save and spend.
Founded in 2019, Neo Financial offers a range of innovative financial solutions, including high-interest savings accounts, deposit accounts, a suite of Mastercard offerings, including a no-annual-fee cash back Mastercard, and competitive mortgage options. Neo is trusted by over 1M Canadians and was recently ranked No. 1 on the 2024 Report on Business magazine’s annual ranking of Canada’s Top Growing Companies.
Jeff’s background is steeped in high performance. Previous to Neo Financial, Jeff represented Canada globally on the Canadian national wrestling team for over a decade and co-founded SkipTheDishes—Canada’s leading food ordering and delivery platform, which grew to over 3000 employees and 6 million customers.
Resources
Neo Mortgages
https://www.neofinancial.com/mortgagesNeo Financial Partners with CI Financial to Launch Suite of Cutting-Edge Financial Solutions
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20241009155090/en/Neo-Financial-Partners-with-CI-Financial-to-Launch-Suite-of-Cutting-Edge-Financial-Solutions--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Jeff Adamson | Neo Financial:
Website: www.neofinancial.comLinkedin: Jeff AdamsonX: @NeoFinancial--
Transcript:
Jeff 00:01
Well, you spend your whole life developing these attributes to not leverage them for the rest of your life just seemed like such a waste. Fortunately for me, business happened to be a really good one for me to transfer these skills to–
Leah 00:14
Yeah, and harness all of that that you've learned.
Jeff 00:17
At least attempt to.
Leah 00:18
Yes. Yes, at least attempt it.
Leah 00:19
Hi, thanks for being here and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet, they have the best stories. They're solving big problems. And they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:06
Joining me in the studio today is Jeff Adamson, Co-Founder and Chief Commercial Officer of Neo Financial, a financial technology company offering Canadians a new way to take control of the financial future with user-friendly banking technology and products. Jeff, thanks so much for being here today.
Jeff 01:23
It’s great to be here. I think you stuck that intro that was amazing.
Leah 01:26
You know, it goes back to legal. Yeah, exactly. It goes back to that 20 odd years in television. You know, this is what we do. So listen, thank you so much for being here. And just for those of us listening Saskies, right? We're both from Saskatchewan, so we've got a shorthand gone already. It's pretty great.
Jeff 01:41
I literally said today, you can take the boy or Saskatchewan but you can't take Saskatchewan out of the boy, right? And it was in reference to me buying someone to cheap lunch. Maybe it was a bit of an underhanded compliment in some ways, but.
Leah 01:53
I think it makes for really real people. That's what I really love about Saskies, for sure. So, let's go right back to the beginning, as we always do with this podcast, and we sort of talk about how you got into being an entrepreneur in the first place. So you're a Co-Founder of both Skip the Dishes and Neo Financial. But how did you first even come to the idea of being an entrepreneur? How did this all start?
Jeff 02:16
You know, a lot of people will always say, like, entrepreneurs are born, not made. And I didn't grow up, you know, the kid on the corner with the lemonade stand. I wasn't like, hustling on newspaper routes. I didn't have really a lot of entrepreneurs in the family. My parents both kind of had, like, government jobs or kind of the same job for 20 or 30 years. So for me, it was really around just kind of deciding, how do I want to have the biggest impact I can have? And I was an athlete for the majority of my life. I competed with the National wrestling team. I went to the University of Saskatchewan. That's what we have in common. And, you know, I was kind of just at the point in my career, and I was really fortunate that there were a lot of people at the same point in their careers where you work for some big companies, and you're asking yourself that question, of 20 years from now, am I going to look back and regret that I didn't take more risks more chances? And you start asking that question of, like, Am I really having as much of an impact as I can have? And for me and the other Co-Founders at Skip and at Neo, the motivation was never like, Hey, how can we make the most money? Or how can we get rich? We just wanted to put the prairies on the map. That was the thing that got us super excited. So, I mean, I went to university, I competed as a national team athlete for 10 or 15 years. Got to go all around the world. Got to see some incredible things. See how different cultures, different technology in different countries, how different countries operate. And then you come back, and you're kind of just like, Okay, what's next? And I had the amazing opportunity to go and represent Canada at the Pan Am Games. I was brought to the 2012 Olympic Games, and when I came back, I was kind of just like, full of this energy to do something. And then you go back to your day job, and you're like, oh, okay, you know, this is maybe not the same level of excitement. And then we just got chatting around like, well, how cool would it be if we could actually build a multi-billion dollar tech company right here at home, you know, in the prairies in Saskatoon, in Winnipeg, in Calgary, and that just seemed so cool and so exciting that everything else just kind of fell away.
Leah 04:31
Cool. I love that idea of putting prairies on the map. I love that. You've talked a lot about being an athlete and an elite athlete. I'm really curious about how being an elite-level athlete informs how you are as an entrepreneur.
Jeff 04:45
Yeah, it's a good question. Leah, because I definitely, even though I'm, like, not technically an athlete anymore, like I'm not competing, I still identify as one, which is kind of a weird. I don't know, dichotomy, because obviously, if I went tried to make the national now, I wouldn't have a hope of it, but I still hold on to so much of what I learned as an athlete. And by that I mean the characteristics or the character that you build from being an athlete. And I think it comes from it could be music, could be the arts, could be sciences, whatever it is, but it's really that process of setting a fairly lofty goal, and for me, I always wanted to be a national champion. I wanted to make the Olympic team, and then kind of going through all of the difficulties and challenges that are required to achieve that goal, and then working with all the people around you who support you in that endeavour. And it's such an adventure, you know, being an athlete or in again, it could be, it really could be anything, but it really focuses you, and it sets a standard for yourself and for the people around you. I don't know; I just can't get enough of it. I just, I love that, that mentality of just trying to always bring your A-game to kind of whatever you do. And as an athlete, especially if your ambition is to be a world-caliber athlete, you kind of have to be pretty realistic with yourself. If you're going to set that type of a goal, are you going to be willing to do what it takes to achieve it? So that kind of self-honesty that comes with being an athlete, and I just think so much of it transfers over to business, into other parts of life. And I just met a lot of people over the years that would transition away from being an athlete, and then almost would let go of a lot of the things that they learned. And I just thought, well, you spend your whole life developing these attributes to not leverage them for the rest of your life just seemed like such a waste. Fortunately for me, business happened to be a really good one for me to transfer these skills to.
Leah 06:49
Yeah and harness all of that that you've learned.
Jeff 06:51
At least attempt to.
Leah 06:53
Yes. Yes, at least attempt it. I'm thinking of that because I've actually had conversations, you know, whether it was on the morning show or even in the community, with a lot of athletes that leave sport and then kind of fall off a cliff, like they really don't know what to do with themselves, and they almost don't even know how to be in the world because they are, they have, to your point, have developed these other attributes that aren't necessarily applicable in certain aspects of life. And I think there is something to this, that in entrepreneurship, it fits perfectly.
Jeff 07:23
It's a really difficult transition, I think, for a lot of athletes, and it's not talked about a lot, it probably should be spoken about more. But you basically go from having a singular focus in your life, and you're surrounded by everyone around you is high performance. Everyone has that same singular focus. You know, what to eat, how to train. It's very linear. Hey, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do A and B and C, and hopefully, I get D. Then you go into the world of your career, you're very adrift. There's so many different directions you could go. And you're also not surrounded by high-performance people; you're surrounded by people who have different priorities. Some people want to go golfing on Fridays, and some people want to go to a book club in the afternoon. And some people want to work part-time. Some are full-time, like, some people care about the mission, some people don't. And so then you're like, it's just a culture shock, right? For a lot of people. And so, for me, it was about finding another mission. And I was really fortunate that I was able to meet some friends from university who kind of shared something that I cared about a lot, and that was putting the prairies on the map. It was really building companies that would have a meaningful impact on the kind of fabric of Canada.
Leah 08:40
Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Okay, so that brings us to really Neo and why we're here today. So tell me a little bit about Neo and what it was about Neo that attracted you to it, and to sort of take this sort of packet of attributes, if you will, and apply it to something like Neo.
Jeff 08:57
Well, one of the questions we got at Skip from investors. I wouldn't even call it a question. It's more of an objection, and that is, you know, the food delivery markets is not big enough. And, you know, it's not a venture scale company. And they actually pegged the entire addressable market for Skip at a billion dollars. By the time that we left, Skip was probably doing 3-4 billion. So it had not only exceeded the total market addressable market, but we had grown the entire market while we were there, and in the process, created 1000s of jobs and opportunities for people. When we left, we were looking at it. And I actually remember sitting down with my Co-Founder, Andrew, and he had actually left a year before I did it Skip. I was the last founder that stepped out. And I was kind of like, okay, Andrew, like, what do? What do you know guys in their late 20s, early 30s, do after they sell their companies? And he said something that just scared me to my bones, Leah.
Leah 10:00
What was it?
Jeff 10:02
He said, Jeff, most of the guys I talk to that sell their companies. They just get into commercial real estate.
Leah 10:11
So, how did that land with you? Not so good.
Jeff 10:14
And again, no offence to any commercial real estate guys out there.
Leah 10:16
Of course, yeah, they're doing great work, but for you–
Jeff 10:17
It just seems like you learn so much over the course of building a venture scale business that to not take those playbooks and those that relationship capital, that you've built, those connections to the investor community, all of it, and then to not then carry it forward into, you know, I think very much what James has done here. You know, creating that ecosystem, to me, seemed like a lost opportunity. And for me, if we even just zoom out a little bit more, Leah and we look at it and say, Okay, well, why do people live in the prairies in general? You know, we've got a lot to be really proud of we've got thriving agriculture, thriving oil and gas sector, great universities, but a lot of people leave the prairies because there aren't companies that are aligned with their own ambitions and values. They want to go and work on the cutting edge, and when you think about different advancements in the world. It's almost like a wave that comes, and you've had many different waves that have kind of swept over the whole globe. You've got Internet, mobile, cloud and AI now, right? These are like waves. And if you've ever been surfing, I'm a terrible surfer, by the way, but you know that you kind of have to kind of catch the wave. And then you have to swim really, really fast and then catch it. And if you don't, then the wave just kind of goes by you. And we've had many of these waves come through Canada, North America, the globe, and there's some cities that really catch the waves. Silicon Valley is a great example. New York, like, there's London, Seattle, Boston, there's just, there's massive companies being built in these new industries. And I guess the concern that I had was, if we think about why are people going to live here 100 years from now, what are the reasons why they would stay? And there's lots of incredible reasons, the quality of life, the people, the culture, all that. But you need to have companies that are aligned with the ambitions and values of the people here, or they're going to go. People are mobile, and capital is mobile. So, if we want to attract and retain the brilliant people that we produce in Canada. We absolutely have to have companies that are aligned with what those people also want to have an impact at a huge amount of scale. And if you see all of that happening in other cities, naturally, you're gonna go, and that happens, and it's happened for a long time. And I think even when you think about Calgary, where we are, what do people think about, when they think of Calgary, do they think of tech companies?
Leah 13:08
Oil and gas? Yeah, which is great.
13:10
Which is okay because Calgary is a world leader in oil and gas, yeah, I think that's excellent, yeah. But for the people who also care about other things, I don't want those people to have to go to Silicon Valley. So banking was this interesting problem where it was a massive market. We're talking about half a trillion dollars in market cap, just in the top five companies in Canada. 200 billion in revenue produced by these companies domestically every single year, that's USD, so a massive market, massive amount of revenue and profit being produced, and yet the experiences that we have are not really in line with these world-class companies. Like no one is waking up and being like, I'm so pumped I get to my bank branch too. And like, these are massive consumer brands, like, we literally have the TD free fare zone just outside the door here. There's like, a TD logo, like, on my front lawn somehow. So they like sponsoring a patch of grass, like, they're all over the place. But the experiences that they're providing Canadians are really not world-class, and you see that in the fact that Canada is in the bottom five of the developed world in digital banking, yet we're in the top five in smartphone penetration and internet usage. So, you have this massive gap between expectations and reality. And I was just on BNN last week. And one of the things that I said was, if you talk to people who come to Canada, they will tell you, Leah, wonderful country, amazing people. Medieval banking system. So it was a big problem, a big industry, where I felt like there was an opportunity to really bring more change and cost. Competition to the sector, and in the process, create a massive business that could create these opportunities for people to call the prairies home for hundreds of years to come.
Leah 15:11
Right, that’s exciting. I like the way you think about that. The other thing, of course, that comes to mind, though, is that, you know, Canadians arguably, can be somewhat risk averse, and you know, they might like the idea of a Neo, but maybe they're afraid to make that move. That's a pretty big obstacle to get your head around. How do you guys think about it?
Jeff 15:32
I think if you look at how technology has enabled trust to form, you'll see that it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago for someone to get into a car with a complete stranger from an app and just drive away. Or stay in a stranger's house. Like Airbnb. So technology has the opportunity to help solve for trust, and so Neo is really part of what we see as a larger global trend where consumers are increasingly turning towards technology companies to add more value and convenience to their everyday lives, and it becomes a lot more self-evident once you start seeing that evolution occur. So whether it's transportation and Uber, videos, Netflix, YouTube, Spotify like this is what's happening now. It's already happened in nearly every major economy globally, where you see major technology companies are now the bank of choice for hundreds of millions of people, Canada is just late to the party. And again, we can remain a, you know, risk-averse culture, but it's hard to turn away value and convenience, especially once you realize that it actually is just as safe as any other options. In fact, in many ways more safe, because Neo uses a lot more modern technology that is a lot more, I say, robust and stable than what you see from kind of more traditional kind of racks and servers.
Leah 16:59
Yeah. fascinating. I love it. One of the questions that I ask everybody that sits in this chair is, think about a moment when you were building your company, and things just really went off the rails. You really weren't sure how you were going to figure this big challenge out. Is there one moment that you can think of that comes to mind in particular where you're like, I don't know if this is going to work. I don't even know how we're going to how we're gonna get through this. Can you tell us that story?
Jeff 17:25
I'll do two quick ones. One is when COVID hit, and we were less than a year old as a company. And, yeah, you have all this uncertainty. You've got VCs telling you one thing: you've got your kind of pure CEOs and Founders that you talk to, and it's really hard to triangulate what the right decision to do is. And we were getting a lot of pressure to really just kind of like, lay everyone off and batten down the hatches and or to kind of furlough people, where you like, lay them off and then you hire them back later, because then the government was going to step in and cover part of their wages, I think. We made the, what I believe was the right choice, but the difficult one to say, hey, we're not actually going to furlough any people. I really hope I'm getting that word right, but we weren't gonna lay any people off, and we're gonna keep people employed full-time, and we're going to power through it, and obviously, like that makes things a lot more difficult because you're spending more money, you're having to adjust your strategy. And honestly, our team just really powered through it. They really stayed united. We worked through all the difficult decisions that you needed to and it actually ties into the second one, which was when we kind of landed our first large enterprise partnerships with Hudson's Bay. So they have a decades-old credit card program with tons and tons of clients, tons of loyalty to that program. And at the time, we had like 1000 customers at Neo, so it was very early in the business, like we had just friends and family, essentially, and then we won this partnership with Hudson's Bay, and it basically meant that we were gonna go from, like, 1000s to hundreds of 1000s of clients, pretty much overnight, and we only had maybe 30 people in the company. So it was like, literally, I remember it was Easter weekend where we were onboarding all these customers, and like, we're just seeing like, a tsunami of demand hitting us. Like, literally, though, every single person, Leah, just like, jumped on the phones. We were, like, taking customer service calls and some of the clients, you've got young people, you've got old people. I was resetting passwords for people. I don't know if you know how hard it is to come up with a, like, a 12-digit password, upper, lowercase special characters for, like, a 50-60, year old.
Leah 19:47
Oh, yeah, I know.
Jeff 19:49
It's an impossible question.
Leah 19:50
Yes, it's me. I get it.
Jeff 19:52
And honestly, everyone just rallied behind it. And I think that's one of the things that is really special about Neo is just there really isn't any challenge too big that scares our team away. Like in fact, I think the bigger and more audacious the goal, the more excited our team gets. And that's just such a great quality to have in a team.
Leah 20:12
No kidding, okay, but I need to dig into that a little bit. Okay, so let's think that through. So all of a sudden, as you said, you get this tsunami of requests coming in. How do you even get your head around that? Like, how are people not freaking out and losing their minds and going, Oh, we can't do this. Oh, my God. How are they not doing that?
Jeff 20:29
I think it's partially because, and this is a bit of a misconception in building a company. Is that many people think that the hard part is, like figuring out, how do you even get product market fit at all. And that is really, really painful, difficult and hopeless at times. But it's also very, very painful and difficult and sometimes hopeless when you have runaway demand. And so I think one of the things that we try to do is we try not to make it so that there's like, high intensity, low intensity. We try to make sure that the intensity is fairly consistent, so that even when we're not like facing a tsunami of demand, we're still working just as hard on a different problem to solve. And so when something like that comes up, it just it's really more of just a shift of priorities over to something different. So, the level of difficulty really doesn't change. It may be more acute in one area or another, but it really means that we just have a team that is used to tackling things like that. And I think that the reason why I talk about like hopping on the phones is obviously our customer service team would have been overwhelmed, and if we all just sat there and watched them get completely swamped, that would never really been a team way to approach the problem. And so one of the values that we have is around teamwork. And so that's why, where we can pitch in and help out, we absolutely do. And I think that's just one example of what I saw that another team that was, you know, struggling, and it goes other way too, if the shoe were on the other foot, they would be helping us out on another part of the company. And that flexibility, I think, is really important to maintain that ability to take on big challenges.
Leah 22:04
No kidding. I also got asked, though, as one of the Co-Founders, and you're in that situation, I mean, what does that actually feel like to you to realize that this is happening and it's going to get really intense, really fast, what does it feel like?
Jeff 22:20
I can’t speak for anyone, but for myself, it's exciting. It's super because this is what you train for. This is why you're here. It's to work on big problems. It's to rise to the challenge. It's to see your team the best come out of them. And I really think that you need that in order to bring up the very best in people, is you need something coming that is a big, big challenge that you can overcome if you work together. And when you just see people like people still talk about this. They still talk about, oh my god, we only had like three months do the whole thing. We there's no one said we could do it, and we all buckled down. We got it done and there's, there's like a dozen examples of that. We actually are, another example is we're actually a self processor, so we're actually vertically integrated. We're the only ones, perhaps, in North America, that do this. It basically means that we process all the payments that occur on our credit cards. We switched over to our own in-house processor overnight to over a million customers without getting a single phone call. The calibre of the engineering and product that is needed to pull something like that off is absolutely astounding. And you had, we've got photos of, like, people who had, like, literally spent the night at the office to pull this off. And again, people look back on it with fondness, even though at the time, it was so painful and difficult, after you get through it, and you get on the other side, and you're like, holy crap, we're actually capable of so much more than perhaps we thought, and then you can just raise the bar again, right, and go after even bigger challenges. So that's the exciting part of it.
Leah 23:59
It almost becomes a point of pride, like we did this, like we did it.
Jeff 24:04
Absolutely, yes. So we get really fired up about doing things like that, where you the stakes are a lot higher, the opportunity to have an impact is absolutely massive. When you're dealing with millions of customers, when you're dealing with billions of dollars, the trust that people have put in you, and it's such a big industry, it's such an interesting problem set to solve. It just brings out a lot of that excitement when you actually do overcome something that's really difficult.
Leah 24:33
No kidding. That said, what you're describing, right there, is making me go, Holy God, I can cover my head. It sounds terrifying.
Jeff 24:40
But that's why you're in the game, though, right? That's that's why we're doing it. Is because we want to be able to build the most beautiful software. We want people to use it and be impressed. We want to be able to build a better financial future for Canadians. We want to create more transparency in financial services and make it more accessible to people, easy to understand, and when you see that happening in real-time in front of you, it's just, it's really rewarding, because you know that you're having and like, even I'll get messages from customers where they're like, Hey, I just want to thank you. I, you know, I was able to use Neo, I was able to build my credit score, or I was able to access credit that I previously had never where I've saved so much money through all the cash back rewards that we gave people, and that actually just makes it so much more meaningful when you see that those problems are being solved.
Leah 25:30
What does it feel like to hear those comments from your clients?
Jeff 25:33
Honestly, it's like two things. Leah, first is seeing your team really level up right in front of your eyes is super rewarding because you're just you're like, hey, I remember when this person came in, and maybe it's the first tech company they ever worked at, or maybe they came from a really successful tech company at a later stage, and now they're going earlier stage, so everyone's kind of solving a different problem in their own careers, and seeing them completely evolve as a teammate is incredible. And then also just seeing, like, when you're getting a product out to market in the very early days, like you're just, you're like, Oh my God, please don't look at the reviews, because, you know, you're just, the product is kind of half baked sometimes. Which is really difficult in financial services. I'm sure absolutely need to be 100% secure and stable. But when you see that positive feedback come in and people are like, this is, hands down, the best banking experience I've ever seen, it just really makes it feel like all the hard work that you're doing is really worth it, and it's nice to have those moments, because so often, as a leader, you're just dealing with the biggest problems. It's the distillation of the hardest things in the company and seeing that feedback come through. And again, a lot of times you're dealing with negative feedback too, but it really kind of it just warms your heart.
Leah 26:52
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Leah 27:15
It's a recurring theme that I hear on this podcast that Founders are often reminded to celebrate the little wins and the small wins, and they remind themselves that we have to celebrate these wins, because this is what keeps us going, and it also is what keeps our eye on that impact that we talked about at the very beginning.
Jeff 27:34
Yeah, it's definitely something that I need to be reminded of doing, and because you're just so always focused on the future, but taking those moments and especially giving recognition to the team that does a lot of the work along the way.
Leah 27:47
Yeah, I actually wanted to dig into that a little bit. You talked many times about the team and how, you know, resilient they've been, how well they've worked together to rise to some of these particular challenges. How do you create that team, like, how do you think about building a team that works together like that on these big, scary problems?
Jeff 28:03
I think it's first really alignment on the mission. And so what we look for is who is really aligned at building a massive consumer business in the prairies, you know, and who is aligned in helping us build a better financial future for Canadians, like who thinks that that problem is really worth solving? Because if someone says, You know what? Like, I could be working for Google. I could be working for Goldman Sachs, and that's just as good to me as working at a local startup. Probably not going to be as aligned with what we need. And honestly, like when you're solving difficult problems, you need to draw on something that is going to get you fired up to get after it. And so I think it's that first, that alignment, and it can be, it could be a bit different for different people, but I think that North Star of saying, hey, if we can succeed in building a $50 billion business, you know, headquartered in Calgary, with offices in Toronto and Winnipeg, maybe Vancouver, Montreal, someday, you know, who's going to get really excited about that happening, and then the second is, who understands really what it's going to take to do that, and is willing to sign up for it, willingly takes on that level of ambition and understands that it's not going to be smooth sailing the whole time. It's going to be really, really difficult. So those are really the kind of attributes. But then you're looking at, okay, then of course, there's the skills you're going to need this specialization, especially in what we're doing, where you've got, like we're drawing talent from around the globe, like our Chief Credit Risk Officers from NEWBANK, the largest digital bank in the world. He was a Chief Risk Officer in Mexico. We've got executives that went through the whole ING, Tangerine, Scotia Bank experience. Built one of the biggest digital banks in Canada. We've got executives from Colombia who scaled like the largest food delivery business in Colombia to billions in revenue, and he's relocated to Calgary to join us in this mission. And so, to me, it's you're finding these skills. You're kind of like putting the pieces together, but the thing that has to really bring this together is that mission of building this important business, creating these new opportunities for people, I think those are the important pieces, for sure.
Leah 30:31
For sure. I can see you get jazzed when you talk about this team-building concept. I think you really like it. But I also I'm really curious about what do you love, specifically about working in startups, like we've talked a little bit about the challenges, we've talked a little bit about the wins, but it is a very unique experience to work in a startup. What do you really love about it? And what do you love about being a Founder, specifically?
Jeff 30:54
Not put a lot of thought into what do I like about being a Founder, because it's so focused on the problem that you're trying to solve. And that is kind of like back to the mission of building this very, very important business, building an ecosystem in the prairies. I think is essential to the future of the prairies. I think it's also essential in the future of creating competition in banking. Those are the things that get me really, excited. What role I play in that, to me, matters very little. There's some things I really suck at, and there's some things I'm really good at, and hopefully, I spend more of my time doing things I'm good at. But to me, I'm not really all that attached to the specific thing that I'm working on at that moment. It's really more around. Am I moving this closer to that goal, or am I moving this further away, or who do I need to be working with to advance Neo towards our goal? And so it's, I mean, specifically about working in startups. I mean, I think it's fairly common, and you get to get to choose the team that you work with on it. A lot of people will join a big company, and you're just inheriting decades of legacy, whatever, could be, legacy technology process, and then your ability to have an impact is very limited. And I think a lot of people, you know, value, you know, stability, and they value predictability, which I think is totally fine, but I think there's a trade-off. I think that comes with working at big companies that are a lot more predictable and stable; the trade-off is that ability to really have an impact. And I think at startups, that is the one thing that we can offer. And by we, I mean all startups, is that ability to really have a meaningful impact. And I think ultimately that when you look back 20-30, years from now, I think that's the question that people often ask is, did I have an impact?
Leah 32:40
Yeah. I love that. I've heard you say before, when it comes to risk, that it's not that risky to start a startup, and we need more people to take that leap. Is that really what you think? Because I think starting a startup sounds really risky, but tell me your thoughts on that.
Jeff 32:56
Yeah, I was having this debate actually with a professor at the University of Toronto, School of Business, Rotman, I think it's called, and we're trying to understand, like, what is it? What is the root cause of how Canadians view risk? How far can you trace it back? Why do we view risk so differently than our counterparts in the US? In the US, if you build something and fail, and you start something again, that's a comeback story. In Canada, if you build something and fail, you're a failure. So there's something that's different, you know, you can, I think you can trace it back all the way to how Canada formed as a country. You know, the US was a revolution. Here, we kind of were like, Hey, let's figure out if we can work this out. Still dealing with it today. If we want Canada to really have a seat at the table globally, I think we need more people to be participants in this new age than observers. And whatever you participate in anything, there's an element of risk that's involved. But the risk is not necessarily what people believe. I think they often will feel that the risk is okay. The startup doesn't work out. But the thing that makes someone valuable, and usually they think of it in financial risk, or maybe they think about it reputational risk, but the person who goes after it, who has a mission and a belief and rolls the dice, that is an incredibly valuable person. That is a person who's employable 10 out of 10 times. They will never be want for money. They can go and make money. That's the easiest thing in the world. But the person who stays secure in a job where it's limited their learning, where they will look very similar to the millions of other people who also have that same background and haven't taken the risks that, to me, is risky. Because that cushy, stable job that big company, maybe they're gonna have layoffs. Maybe you get caught in that layoff. Now you're out looking for a job, and I've met so many talented people who got caught in a big layoff. There's been lots of them over the last couple of years, and unfortunately, their experience looks a lot like everyone else's. First is the people who actually went out and actually tried to do something they they were forced to learn all the skills because they didn't have someone to do it for them. That's startups force you to do that. And you could almost say, accidentally, by people doing this, we can create 1000s of unicorn companies in Canada just with getting more people off the sidelines and redefining risk and risk tolerance in Canada, and so it's something that I talk about a lot, because honestly, sometimes the biggest risk is just not taking enough of them.
Leah 35:50
I love that. I love that. Okay, we've talked a lot about building the business. I want to talk a little bit more about what it's actually like to be an Entrepreneur and what that looks like in your life, like how? I mean, building business like Neo, it takes a lot of time, a lot of focus, a lot of effort. What's it like to do that work, and how does it affect your personal life?
Jeff 36:09
You definitely need to have a lot of support. And I'm super lucky that I have an amazing, beautiful wife who is incredibly patient and supportive. And she's been with me from the early Skip days to founding Neo. We've got two little boys at home as well, a two-year-old and a four-year-old, David and Laban, and they are just like the coolest kids ever. And I just have such a blast with them. So, it does come with the need to have support. And I think I'm a big believer in building relationship capital and investing in relationships. I think there's the only way you get anything done, and it's also just incredibly rewarding, too. And I think it definitely makes you more picky with how you like, where you make those investments of your own time and in what relationships. And because you can't be just spreading yourselves and spending time with just everybody. So especially now that I have kids, like, I'm a lot like, people are not seeing me out all the time, and I'm not like catching up with folks every single night, because I have to spend that time with my family or with those close friends that have been so critical for me along the way, but it definitely comes to sacrifice. There's no question. I'm going to New York tomorrow, and, you know, I'm almost missed Halloween, you know, I've got to, like, make it back in time for that. And there's been things I have missed because I've been away. But at the same time I see people who work for big companies, and they're on the road all the time anyway, so honestly, like, the trade-off does not seem to be that crazy. Just because I don't know, I feel like I'm kind of okay with I just know that no matter what I'm gonna do, there's gonna be a sacrifice. And so I'd rather be maybe a bit more in control of that sacrifice than, you know, to have a job where it's like, okay, you need to travel five days a week every week because you're, I don't know, a consultant. But I think even the early Skip days. Like we actually, like all the Co-Founders, like, we actually lived together. We had employees living with us, like, in like a 13-bedroom kind of house that we all shared. A lot of people would look at that and say, Oh my God, that's like a complete nightmare. And I totally get it. That totally makes sense, yeah. But like, for us, like, that wasn't really that much of a sacrifice, kind of okay with that standard of of living, because we were focused on the mission at the time. So I think it depends on kind of, like, what are, what is your standard? And that will define kind of, do you feel you're really making a sacrifice, or you just feel like this is kind of what you signed up for?
Leah 38:44
Right. And that notion of support, and I've heard in the in this same position, it's the right kind of support that you need, someone that really gets what this kind of work is all about.
Jeff 38:56
That's a good point. I mean, tons of people will not get it. Yeah, I'd say most, actually, and–
Leah 39:02
It’s one of the reasons why I like doing this podcast. I hope other people listen to it outside of these ecosystems, right? This is what it really looks like.
Jeff 39:09
Yeah, and it's definitely not glamorous. I think especially like dealing with some of like, the hopelessness that you have at times where you basically kind of feel completely hopeless. And other times where you feel over the moon, like you just literally those swings where it almost feels like you're going to multiple funerals and weddings in the same day, or like coming in and feeling a pit in your stomach and then leaving that same day over, like completely exhilarated. So it definitely is like having people around you that will understand kind of a little bit of what you're going through. And I was super lucky that I had two supportive parents that believed in me and that never ever said that you can't do it. And I definitely don't think I could have done it without them, without my wife, those have been two or three critical people in my life.
Leah 40:05
Absolutely, you talked about that hopelessness, and that has been articulated many times. You know, with founders that have been sitting in that chair, they talk about this despondency, this hopelessness that sometimes comes, and you sort of feel isolated, and you weigh down. And I'm curious for you: when you hit those spots, how do you move through that and come out on the other side?
Jeff 40:26
That comes back to that support so, and I think we're super lucky that. So the team at Neo, you know, I've got Chris Samara as a Co-Founder, Andrew Chow, Chris Reed, we got an amazing leadership team of people who are just so fearless and the resolve that they show on a daily basis, because like, I'm not going through all this stuff by myself, right? I'm going through it with a team of people who's got my back and I've got their back. And there's something that happens between people when you go through difficulty together, and you come out on the other side in one piece; there's something special there. And I think that I've had that happen enough times so that when you have those moments of despair, it's basically a call to greatness for everyone to step up and work together to get through it, and it just brings us all closer together. So, I mean, we're just, I don't know if every team is like this. I can only share kind of what my own experience has been. But, like, Skip, I mean, we built one of the largest consumer tech companies in Canada. Neo is well on its way. It's the fastest-growing company in Canada now. And you know, we seem to attract people who really have one another's backs when things do get difficult.
Leah 41:52
That's something to be proud of, for sure. Yeah, um, you've spoken about how Neo is a family outside of work, a lot of you guys have young kids. You're all doing this together. And then you've also spoken about how, when you're in the office, though, you operate more like a sports team. Can you talk to me a little bit about that difference?
Jeff 42:08
Yeah, and I think that's, you know, I would never want to treat my family the way I would manage a sports team or be on a sports team, because there's, like, strict expectations, there's high standards. There's, like, all these things that you place on people who you're going to depend on. So if you know that in order to do something, you're going to need, you know these people to do X, Y and Z, and you're going to have to do that for them too. It's just a totally different relationship. And you do often hear where people will compare their work, you know, to a family, and to me, it's just a totally different type of relationship, where you're definitely there for each other, but it's a conditional relationship. Whereas the family, I think, should be about unconditional love and support, and you're there for them no matter what. And that's different with us, with a high-performance sports team, you're there, you're trying to build the best championship team that you can that can achieve the mission, and that means that there is an expectation that you have on each other, and you want to bring out the best in each other every single day. And you're helping one another; you're taking criticism, you're giving criticism, you're getting feedback, you know, you're pushing one another along. If I did that to a family member, they'd be like, just stop. I'm your brother, yeah. Like, I'm your, I'm your sister's cousin. Like, that's just totally different, let alone wife definitely not have, especially if you met my wife. So I think that for us, it's really about, how do we just, how do we bring the best versions of ourselves every single day, and how do we show up for one another in a way that is going to really advance us towards the mission and again, that comes with conditions, that comes with Hey, like, if I'm showing up and bringing my B game every day, I want someone to call me out on it, because I owe it to them to be good, because they're bringing their A-game every day.
Leah 44:06
I love it. We've talked a lot about support, but how do you stay well working in this fast-paced environment outside of the support systems that you have?
Jeff 44:17
I am super dependent on, like, staying healthy, and as an athlete like you obviously, like, have to stay mentally and physically sharp. And so I've just seen it happen where you you kind of let something slip, and that could be like, you're not taking your mental training seriously. You're not working on, like, your cardio, you're not working on your strength or speed, and then your game just falls apart. And so I think when it comes to how are you going to bring your best, wherever you are like you have to be able to be making sure that the mental side, making sure that the physical side, making sure that the spiritual side, all those things are getting taken care of. It's kind of a bit of a three-legged stool, and that if something in my personal life is falling apart, that's probably going to bleed into how I show up at work, or if my health is deteriorating, that's probably going to affect how I'm showing up for my family or my teammates at the office. So for me, like, I mean, I set up my whole life so that I can have that balance. And I don't mean a balance in terms of, like, you know, work life balance that's right around. I chose to live in a place where I can run to work every day. And when I had kids, I didn't have enough time to go to the gym every day to dedicate an hour-long workout. So, instead, I'm just going to spend 30 minutes jogging to the office in the morning. I'm going to spend 30 minutes jogging home in the afternoon. That's my exercise. And maybe I can throw in some push-ups. So, it's more around, like, setting up a lifestyle that accommodates making sure that my cup is getting full in the areas that it needs to, and it's certainly difficult, like, I see a lot of people going off the rails on this piece and I've been fortunate that I've had people be able to come and say, like, hey, like, they're not afraid to give me that feedback on like, hey, like, are you making sure you're taking care of this or that? And it's good to have that open relationship where you can make sure that you're getting the feedback that you need because it's very easy to lose sight of, Hey, are you taking care of all those things?
Leah 46:23
Right. And being so mindful of it all?
Jeff 46:27
Yeah, you just get so focused on one thing, and all of a sudden, next thing, you know, you're like, Oh my God. Like, I haven't taken care of my relationships, or I haven't taken care of, you know, my health or something. It can go off. But, you know, the people who have been, I've been lucky that have been around high-performance people my whole life, and you just watch how the habits that they build, and they just set up their life for kind of around excellence and set up the relationships around them as well, and they're able to make sure that they can continue to perform.
Leah 46:58
Love it. Love it. All right, we talked a little bit about this at the beginning of our conversation. But I'd love to sort of think about this towards the end. At Thin Air Labs, we often talk about creating meaningful human impact. I've heard you speak about impact. When you think of creating an impact here in Calgary and Alberta, what do you think of?
Jeff 47:19
I think ultimately, it's always about who is your end customer. What value are you creating for your end customer? Like that honestly has to be what's driving, I think, any businesses, how are you creating value, convenience? Why are they choosing you? And then everything is a bit but a bit of a byproduct of that. If you're not taking care of your team, if you're not investing the right things, ultimately that it will deteriorate at the customer side, and then if it deteriorates there, then you can't, you don't have the right to do anything else. So for us, it's really about first and foremost customer. What are we doing for the customer? Then it's going to be okay, well, then, what are we doing for the people who are working for the customer, the engineering, the product, the customer experience. How are we making sure that those opportunities, that people in those roles, are supported in the way that they need to in order to do their best work? So I think that's ultimately how we think about it. And then the job creation comes after all those things.
Leah 48:20
Yeah, wonderful. Okay, as we start to think about wrapping up this conversation, I'm curious about you're the Co-Founder of Neo. You're writing the story for this company. How do you hope the story for Neo goes?
Jeff 48:32
if I think through a kind of longer-term this is, this is years out. What I hope for is that when someone uses Neo that it is indisputably the best place for people to be putting their money in terms of the way that they manage their money, the design of the software, the experience, the transparency, the time it saves people and the value it creates for them. I want to make managing money as smooth as water, and I want that to be accessible to every single Canadian. And if we can achieve that, that's a 50 to $100 billion business right there. That's just one business that, let alone the ecosystem of companies that can be created around this, a thriving ecosystem of startups, tech companies in all sorts of different industries. Once you can solve banking, it can increase the sharing of ideas, the movement of money, liquidity for people, moving money from people who have it to people who need it. It really is the best anchor for our startup ecosystem, and so that's really what I want the story to be, and starting on the consumer and then who knows what will where it will go, but ultimately, it is creating that ecosystem.
Leah 49:59
Mm. Hmm, wonderful. And when you think of yourself as a Founder and Co-Founder, how do you hope your own personal story goes?
Jeff 50:08
Well, as soon as you ask that, Leah, like the first things that come to mind are my boys and my wife. And I think, first and foremost, I want to be there for them. I want to be there for seeing my kids do many of their firsts, and I know that I won't be able to see all of them, but I want to be there for the big ones. I think this year will be kind of the first Halloween that my son really like, kind of participates actively in. So I'm looking forward to being there for that. And ultimately, it's playing some part of having a meaningful impact in my community. I really I've had the opportunity my whole life to leave the prairies and kind of never come back. Whether that was an athlete, people always said, like, Hey, you got to go train in Toronto, you got to go to Iowa, or you got to go to Colorado, or go overseas Japan or Russia. And I always made the active decision to stay and call the prairies home. So whatever I'm doing that's going to be the guiding principle is really kind of around family centric, and then prairies, whatever impact I can have.
Leah 51:10
Wonderful. Jeff, thank you for this conversation.
Jeff 51:13
Thanks for having me. This is great.
Leah 51:22
As the lead investor in Thin Air Labs - Fund One, Sandstone Asset Management believes in building the comments through innovative Founders who are creating meaningful, positive impact, both locally and globally. Sandstone is doing just that by backing the next generation of emerging entrepreneurs. Picture this: a founder start-up goes from idea to international impact supported by strategic investors who believed in their vision. That's the power of Sandstone's approach. Sandstone doesn't just manage wealth, they cultivate it, supporting founders at all stages. Visit sandstoneam.com to learn how sandstone builds legacies that last.
Leah 52:04
The Opportunity Calgary Investment Fund finds, fuels, and fosters opportunities in sectors like aerospace, agribusiness and tech, creating a resilient and diverse economy, attracting world-class talent, and solidifying Calgary as a launch pad for innovators. Discover more at www.opportunitycalgary.com
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Imagine the challenge of discovering your authentic self while launching a business at just 19. Chantelle Little, Founder and CEO of Tiller, takes us through her journey of discovering her passion for marketing at a young age and the early days of building her company from her parents' loft. Chantelle discusses the struggles she faced as a young entrepreneur, including the pressure to overcompensate for her age and the challenges of scaling her business.
A pivotal moment in her career came when she realized the need to embrace her authentic self and shed the limiting beliefs that were holding her and Tiller back. Chantelle also shares how investing in company culture and personal health became essential parts of her growth as a leader. Her story is a powerful reminder that the path to success is not just about technical skills or business strategies but also about personal growth, resilience, and authenticity.
About Chantelle Little
Chantelle Little is the Founder and CEO of Tiller, a web and brand agency serving B2B software brands. She founded Tiller in 2008 at just 19 years old and has scaled it to a multi-million dollar agency with clients across Canada and the U.S.
Chantelle is an active supporter of the tech ecosystem and deeply passionate about elevating B2B brands to reach their true potential. She is widely known for her motto: No Ceilings.
Some of Chantelle’s other achievements include:
2023 Top 40 Under 40 List, Avenue Magazine2023 Notable Entrepreneur of the Year, Notable Awards EY Entrepreneur of the Year Prairies FinalistCalgary City Champion for Lemonade Day, a kids’ entrepreneurship program she brought to CalgaryResources discussed in this episode:
Niche DownLemonade Day--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Chantelle Little:
Website: tillerdigital.comInstagram: @tillerdigitalLinkedIn: Tiller DigitalLinkedIn: Chantelle Little--
Transcript:
Chantelle 00:02
I kind of learned to be comfortable in my own skin and recognize that my team knows I'm human. They want me to be human, and the more transparent I can be about my own growth, the more comfortable they feel talking about theirs.
Leah 00:19
Hi, thanks for being here. And welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more Founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems and they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So, why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:04
Joining me in studio today is Chantelle Little, Founder and CEO of Tiller, a web design and brand agency in the B2B SaaS space, serving clients across North America. Chantelle, thank you so much for being here today.
Chantelle 01:17
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Leah 01:19
Wonderful. Let's go back to the beginning, as we do in all of these conversations, so how did you first come to being an entrepreneur?
Chantelle 01:27
Well, I was in university, and I was trying to find a summer job, and I got a summer job at a health benefit company, and it was a small team, about eight people, and they didn't have anyone in the marketing side of the business, so they hired a summer student me to essentially come in and help them market a couple of their HR products to HR managers, and I, of course, knew nothing. So, they were very kind to have faith in me. And I spent the summer basically trying to figure out how to create explainer videos and landing pages and all of those kind of one-off marketing pieces to try and help them market that product. And I just fell madly in love with marketing. And I mean, 30 days in, I was like, I want to do this for lots of different companies. And so went to my bosses and said, hey, I'll finish my contract here with you. But I also wanted to start my own thing on the side and try and actually do marketing for other companies. And that's kind of how it began.
Leah 02:24
Wow. So, talk to me a little bit about this idea of just falling madly in love. Like, What did that feel like? How did you know that this was what you wanted to do?
Chantelle 02:32
It's a good question because I think that now that I've been doing it so long, I'm even more in love with it. But in the moment, I thought I wanted to be an engineer. I thought I wanted to be in finance for a while. There I was like, oh, I should be a futures trader. I should be a lawyer. Like, I was kind of all over the place, but the storytelling part of marketing really got me and the idea that companies have solutions that can really help make people's lives better, but it requires very clear messaging and really highlighting the values in order for that to translate and cause people to buy a solution that actually will better their lives. So, there was sort of this, this storytelling piece that I just really fell in love with. And I liked the variety too. Like trying to understand the story for a whole bunch of different companies versus just one. Which is what's appealing about the agency space for me.
Leah 02:32
Right. Well, I mean, I get it with the storytelling, right? Because, yeah, obviously, I love storytelling too. But what I'm really curious about is, you are, what, 19 when you're putting this together. Like, how did you how did you go? Okay, I'm 19, but I still got to figure out how to make a business out of this.
Chantelle 03:36
I don't know. I've had so much fun in the summer job, and I was like, well, I could make some extra money if I did this on the side. And so, at the very beginning, I think I saw it as a way of funding getting through the rest of school because I was in the middle of my business degree, and I was thinking, Okay, well, I can make a little bit of extra money. It will help me pay the bills for schooling, and then I'll revisit when it comes time to graduate. But then after I've been doing it for a short time, I was having a hard time imagining not doing it. So, as I neared graduation, some people were saying you should go get a real job. But I was like, but I'm really committed to this now. I really like this now, and I wanted to scale it, so I don't know it just kind of happened. Yeah, naivete is bliss, right? Because I didn't know how hard it would be, and I had very little responsibility to being 19. Like–
Leah 04:27
Were you still living at home?
Chantelle 04:28
At home, yeah, my parent's loft is the first office. Yeah, for sure.
Leah 04:33
See, that's so great. You know, I hear that a lot in this podcast. There's some naivete involved, like a lot of people, like, well, I thought this would just be a really good idea, and I would just give it a go, but I didn't realize how hard it was going to be.
Chantelle 04:44
Yes, I definitely did not.
Leah 04:45
No kidding, amazing. But you know, what still strikes me is this idea that you even knew what scaling this opportunity meant. Do you know what you mean? Like, I didn't know what that meant before I started working in this sector. Like, what is scaling? Why do they keep saying scaling? I don't know what that means. And here you are, and you were just like, this young person going, I just want to do more of this. And so you just knew that that's what was motivating you to grow this thing.
Chantelle 05:09
Yeah. In the early days, the projects I were doing were really small, and so sometimes it was difficult to calculate the impact of them, but I could see the impact that it was having in little ways for the entrepreneurs or the businesses that I was helping, and I found a lot of fulfillment in that, and I just got excited about the idea of scaling that further. I hired a couple of summer students to help me. I had to pick one of the guys up from the bus at the Rec Center and drive him to my parents' house, and we worked there during the day, and I’d drive him back. And it was sort of an odd situation, but we had a little pancake breakfast, like in my parent's loft with a couple of the summer students. And my sister was there, working there for a bit. I recruited my mom to volunteer for a little bit. We tried all this stuff, and I think once I started building a team, I also got even more excited because I really liked the team-building side of it quite a bit more than I expected.
Leah 06:02
Okay, see. But again, here's me going, Okay, but how did you even know I need some summer students, and how am I gonna keep these guys happy? And how did you even know how to be like a boss, like person? You know, at 19?
Chantelle 06:14
I'm still wondering if I know how to do that. I don't know. I have always loved learning. So, I think that while I was faced with so many things I didn't know how to do, there's something thrilling about trying things and sometimes failing isn't super fun, but sometimes it is because you're like, I learned this really big thing, and now I can take that learning and apply it. Now I like failing and learning even more, but it's like the immature me at that time with zero experience. I still liked the challenge of having to figure something out that I didn't know how to do. So, of course, I asked my professors, because I'm in university, right? I asked my professors, for example, my first-year end. Didn't know how to do it. So, I went to my financial accounting professor, and I was like, hey, is there any chance I can get 30 minutes of your time? Can you help me do my year-end? And he was so gracious. He's like, Absolutely. So, I sat in his office, and he helped me. So, I think I just reached out to people within my school community. And my dad was always a wonderful mentor to me, and like other people kind of contributed to that. And then, of course, there's Google and reading books and just figuring out what, sifting what works for you and doesn't right, and just trying and failing a lot. Yeah, yeah, a lot.
Leah 07:24
Classic entrepreneurial journey, right? Classic, classic. Okay, so let's get to Tiller. So, this is the work you're doing. I'm assuming this all led to the formation of Tiller. So, tell me a little bit about Tiller.
Chantelle 07:36
So, Tiller is a digital marketing agency for B2B SaaS Founders and Marketers and we essentially help different companies at different stages in their life cycle with solving various challenges. And some of them are branding-related challenges. Some of them are web and conversion related or customer acquisition challenges. Some are even product challenges. We have built our service offering around that audience and those different challenges, and they differ depending on whether someone's brand new as a Founder or they're scaling up.
Leah 08:07
So cool. That's amazing. Yeah. And how many employees do you have at this point?
Chantelle 08:10
We have 30 now, and then some contractors on our team and hoping to scale it further. So, I'm excited about that.
Leah 08:19
Look at you go, amazing. This is so great. And you were telling me that 60% of your client base is currently in the US.
Chantelle 08:25
Yeah, that's correct. So we, in about 2018, decided to expand into the US, and we did a whole bunch of campaigns, and we've grown it through word-of-mouth referrals. And so it was kind of exciting at first. It was a bit of a spray-and-pray methodology, and we were kind of doing a little bit too much and too broad, but we found some specific areas, geographically speaking, in the US where we could focus more of our energy. So, yeah, 60% of our business is there today.
Leah 08:53
Wow, yeah, that's incredible, yeah. And now you were telling me that you're really curious about, you know, doing some work in your own backyard here in Calgary.
Chantelle 09:00
Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah. When I started Tiller, we were the agency for all, like we served any kind of business, and then we had a moment where we decided to pivot and focus on the B2B SaaS space. And during that time frame, the tech ecosystem has changed so much in Alberta. I mean, it's been here for a long time, but it's accelerating so rapidly and not only is there a greater presence of B2B, B2C, SaaS companies in Alberta, but there's also a lot more ecosystem partners, and there's a lot of VC activity and things like that happening. So, we're actually quite excited about leaning more into our own backyard and working locally and being part of shifting Alberta's tech ecosystem.
Leah 09:40
I like hearing that. That's very exciting, very exciting. I want to dig into a little bit about what it was like for you building this company that is now Tiller. You would have been a very young boss and a young entrepreneur, raising money, asking people for money and clients, and tell me a little bit about what that experience was like.
Chantelle 10:00
Yeah, well, in the very early days, it was incredibly challenging because I was so young and I had no experience. And then I made the mistake of hiring very young people with no experience, right? So, it didn't help. I was quite intimidated by hiring people that were older and more experienced than I was, because I kept thinking, why in the world would they want to come work for, like, a 20-year-old or a 19-year-old or a 22-year-old, right? Like, why in the world would they want to–
Leah 10:30
Which I think is a real concern.
Chantelle 10:34
Yeah, very valid, especially when you see some of the things that we were trying to do, right? I think it was really tricky because I think I spent quite a bit of time trying to overcompensate for my age, and I think that it took quite a bit of time for me to just lean into my authentic self and just be comfortable in my own skin and just be sort of the passionate, energetic, like entrepreneur that I am. And I wish that I would have just leaned into that sooner. Because I think it really stunted our ability to grow in the early days, but it was challenging.
Leah 11:06
Sure, but you were young, and you were learning, right? Tell me a little bit more about this overcompensation that you, that you're talking about, because I think there's a lot of young entrepreneurs that could really learn from that.
Chantelle 11:16
One of the most obvious things was I like, would dress to the nines, like every day. Like, I would wear high heels every day to the office. We were up until COVID, we were in the office, like, five days a week and I would just, like, really try to overcompensate, and I would try to almost talk differently as well, and just use bigger words. And it almost got to the point of, like, almost speaking too intellectual and not clear. Like, there's things where you're just trying so hard. And I think people can snuff that out. They can, like, feel that you're doing that. And so I think those are just like, little ways that I was finding myself doing that. And I think I was also kind of sensitive too. I was probably a little bit too sensitive. I'd read too much into things, be it with a client or in conversations and just think that, oh, they don't believe in me, and it would kind of create a narrative in my head that I don't know. I had a lot of limiting beliefs that started to come up for me, and I sort of–
Leah 12:12
You were taking it personal.
Chantelle 12:14
I was taking it personally, yes. I had to work through that.
Leah 12:18
I was going to say. So, how did you move through that?
Chantelle 12:21
I think some of it came through experience, and starting to get some wins, and realizing that maybe I knew a little, just a touch more than I thought, you know, that maybe the experiences that I was having were building to something bigger, and I could start to connect the dots between those experiences, and I could start to leverage those experiences to build confidence with potential customers. So, I think that was part of it. But actually, the journey went on a long time, and it was actually, I think, 2018 that I hired an executive coach, and I worked with her, and she really, actually helped me identify that I had quite a few limiting beliefs and kind of helped me see how those limiting beliefs were connecting to Tiller's growth.
Leah 13:02
Oh, interesting.
Chantelle 13:03
Like, I put them on myself. But inadvertently, had put them on my company. And so it was actually kind of crazy. She had me write down, I'm right-handed, but she had me write down all my limiting beliefs with my left hand one night, and I started, like, bawling. I was like, I can't believe I think this about myself. But the idea was, like, I had to slow down when I was using my left hand right, because I couldn't write fast right. And as I did that, it kind of revealed how silly some of the statements were. Like, just things like, I'm not a visionary, or I can't lead a team of more than 20 people, or all these types of things I could never inspire people. Like, just things that are, I think there were 60-plus of them. It was actually pretty transformative for me because I realized how silly they were, and then I realized that it was holding Tiller back, which pained me more because I'm sitting there looking at my team who all wants to scale this thing with me, and I'm thinking like, I'm holding them back. That cut deep. But it also inspired a change in my mindset, for sure.
Leah 14:00
But I mean, there's a couple of ways you can go once you have that realization, right? Yeah, like, I mean, some people could, you know, turtle in the corner and fetal right? I mean, others can be like, Oh, I now have the awareness. I can approach this as an opportunity, right, and not as a failure, as an opportunity for growth and change, yes, which is exactly what you did, yeah. How did you know that was the right thing to do? And how did you sort of have the, I don't know if it's courage or or even confidence to go, you know what? That's okay. I now see it. I got it. I know what I'm doing, and I'm gonna just change.
Chantelle 14:32
Yeah, I think one thing that I realized is that I needed to talk very openly about it at Tiller with my team. And I think that was an interesting shift for me, because I came up with this, like no ceilings kind of concept, and I went back to our culture. So, we created a culture deck, and we created a whole bunch of like principles that go beyond our values, but they really describe how we will approach challenge and how we will approach success, and all these types of things. And I think just the process of going through and documenting that and then actually trying to embed that into the DNA of the whole company. It was cool because it became an accountability mechanism for me because now I need to live that, like and breathe that. I want to inspire the rest of the team to do the same, or if I want to attract talent that is inspired by that growth mindset. So, I felt like it raised the bar for me from an accountability perspective while also helping to slowly shift the way we speak because we try to change the language of the organization quite a bit to shift more towards that growth piece. So, it was through that process that I kind of learned to be comfortable in my own skin and recognize that my team knows I'm human. They want me to be human, and the more transparent I can be about my own growth, the more comfortable they feel talking about theirs.
Leah 15:49
Oh, that's exciting, yeah. And then, of course, leading to the growth of everyone and the organization together. Oh, that's amazing. Culture is very important to you. I know we talked about this in the pre interview. It is extremely important to you, is that, because it's an extension of this work that you're just talking about, but tell me a little bit about how you think about culture?
Chantelle 16:05
I think it is an extension of that. I think early on in my entrepreneurial career, I think you think, Oh, I'll set the culture, and then it's like a one-and-done textbook, like, I learned a little bit about culture and university, in business school, but like, you don't really know what that looks like in a real living organism, a company until you start to play with it. And so I think in the past, I would make one-off investments in culture, not one-and-done, but like, one-off investments periodically. But I didn't know how to, like, really make it live and breathe. And I eventually realized, yes, it's my job to set the tone, and it's our leadership team's job to set the tone. But I started thinking about how every person I hire is either going to really grow the culture and, like, kind of make it better, or they're going to actually take away from it. So, yeah, it changed the way that I thought about even hiring. And so, as we started to scale the company based on culture being very, very important, I think that the company culture just started to blossom in a new way, because we had a whole bunch of people that were contributing to it. Everybody is contributing to it. And so I think that that was a game changer because now it's still my job to set the tone, and now I invest more intentionally and more consistently. But everybody's doing it. So, that's kind of the most rewarding piece because you see what they're doing, and you're like, Well, I didn't even ask them to do that, yeah.
Leah 17:33
Look at that. They're doing it all on their own. Yeah, yeah. Also takes a bit of the burden off you too, right?
Chantelle 17:38
Absolutely, yeah, because everyone's elevating it together.
Leah 17:43
Oh, that's really neat. Talk to me a little bit more, too, about just being this young boss and even talking to clients, for example, and convincing them that, yeah, you're the company to go with, even though we are young and we are, you know, growing. That would have been tricky, I would imagine.
Chantelle 18:01
Yeah, yes, it is. It is hard, and it got trickier the more that we scaled. Because, at first, I'm asking someone to part with $2,000, right? Like just $2,000, and sometimes that was hard, and then the ask gets bigger, as as our company, we had higher price points and things. And now you're like, well, now I need you to part with 100,000 or 200,000 in different cases, or 300,000 whatever it is, and I would say that, I think that without knowing it, the way that we won was on attention to detail.
Leah 18:29
No, kidding.
Chantelle 18:30
It sounds so simple.
Leah 18:31
No, but how did that change you?
Chantelle 18:32
I have a high attention to detail. If my team were sitting here, they would laugh and be like, Oh yeah, she does. And I think that that can be a pro and a con superpower, and it can be also something I have to work on because I'm a perfectionist. So, you know, sometimes you can slow things down because you're in the pursuit of every detail. But I'd say that when we were competing against other agencies that were bigger or had more years of experience, the detail and the thoroughness and the like, we listened to the customer, and they could tell when we gave them the pitch or the proposal, it started to help us win. So, the most common feedback we would get in, like, every pitch was like, Oh, this is way more thorough than that agency or that agency, or that agency or, like, we got kind of like a templated thing from them, but like, I can tell that you're already kind of trying to solve our business problems. So, I think that that helped because then age was a little bit less relevant. It was more like this seems more interesting to me. So, it helped.
Leah 19:29
For sure, it did. And this is the team that's going to get the job in a unique and special way for us. It's interesting.
Chantelle 19:33
So, that was part of it I think.
Leah 19:35
I love it. I love it.
Chantelle 19:37
We had to work hard for that business, so I think we put lots energy in.
Leah 19:41
Good for you guys. That's amazing. We've talked a lot about, you know, being an Entrepreneur is like for you. But I'm also really curious, particularly in this podcast, we talk a lot about how being an Entrepreneur and a Founder of a company affects your personal life. I mean, how does it affect your personal life? What does it mean to you?
Chantelle 19:57
I was thinking about that because there's so many facets to it. And I think that the thing that I thought would be interesting to talk about is was more like health, like, just the health side of it, because there's so many facets to it. I mean, being an entrepreneur like, it's difficult to ever turn it off. There's constant pressure. And depending on what's going on in the business, the pressures can be, like, really, really high. But there's always pressure. Even when things are going really well, there's pressure. Pressure of success, right? As just as much as there's pressure of failure. And so I think because I started the company so young, and I had a lot of energy, like, I could really, like, pull the all-nighters, like, three, four days a week, like, honestly, like, it was bad. And I think I just sacrificed so much of my health. I was reflecting on this, and I think I didn't want to sacrifice my friendships or my family. I wanted Tiller to grow. So, the thing that I sacrificed was my health. Because I'd be like, Yeah, let's hang out that Friday night. That sounds so fun, but at 11 pm, when I got home on a Friday night. Of course, I'm like, Well, I promise that person to have a proposal to them tonight. So, now I'm doing it till like two in the morning, you know, to get it done. I think I often justified it by saying, well, it's just a particularly busy time. You know, I had to learn that I was running a marathon, not a sprint. Like I had to learn that. I slowly started to hear stories of Founders and Entrepreneurs who, like, at a relatively young age, were burnt out or ended up with these health issues. So, I just really took a moment to pause. This was not even that long ago, like three, four years ago, and I was just like, I have to change my lifestyle, like I have to change the narrative in my head, that I have to look after myself first so that I can be a good entrepreneur, not like, I'll figure that out later, right? Because later is just like an elusive, we don't have time. We like, there's never time. There's never time. So, if I can't figure out how to change my lifestyle and get those disciplines in when I'm busy, I'll never figure it out because I'm getting busier every year.
Leah 21:57
Of course, so, it’s now or never.
Chantelle 21:59
Yeah, so I just decided to change, like, I'm kind of a funny person, because when I'm like, in on something, I'm in. So, I was like, January, you know, the whole, like, New Year's resolution, I was sitting on this chair in my house, and I was like, I keep thinking, like, I'm not fit, I'm not gonna figure out the sleep thing, like I'm not gonna be like, you know, like, whatever, like I'm not gonna be healthy like I'm never gonna understand all that. And I've just told myself that. But instead, what if I just said, like, what are you capable of? Like, what if you just tried and what if you just explored what you really could do and could become? So, that started a pretty big transformation for me, personally and physically and all that, mentally and all that.
Leah 22:37
So, what did that look like for you?
Chantelle 22:40
Well, I started working out five days a week. And prior to that, I hadn't worked out, like, I'd work out, like, once every few months, right? Like, it was like, I mean, I would, like, go on walks and stuff, but I'm talking like, actual working out. So, I was like, you know, Googling, like, what should I do? And then I was like, okay, I did a few days of cardio and, like, hit training, and then I saw I should be lifting weights, so then I started doing that, and then I did, like, a whole audit of my diet. And was like, I need to get I love science, so why don't I just get into the science of nutrition? So, I got into the whole, like, eating high protein, high fibre diets. And, like, I actually found a passion in actually learning about all these nutrient stuff, like it what didn't feel like a burden eventually. First, I was like, Oh, my God, overwhelming, it’s so much. But I kind of got into it. And so I changed my whole diet. And then I really decided, like, I need to start, like, really trying to get seven hours of sleep a night. Like, it sounds so basic, but I wasn't doing it, right? I could get wide awake easily on four because it didn't affect me much. Doing that three nights in a row like that would be bad. So, I just started changing my whole schedule. I started scheduling in my workouts and like things like that. So, none of it's rocket science, but for me, the combination, oh and like, drinking more water and stuff like that. So, it was the combination of all of those things that really gave me, like, a new level of energy that I'd never experienced before. So, I became the fittest, and I lost a ton of weight, like, and just, like, it was crazy. So, now it's cool because I can't imagine living like that now, right? Like, I know it's a lifestyle change because now I'm like, Oh man–
Leah 24:17
I could never go back.
Chantelle 24:19
Yeah, like, if I have a really big week at work, like, you can tell by, like, what I buy at the grocery store and how I schedule my workouts and when I'm like, Okay, well, I need to go to bed at this time so that I do get seven hours of sleep and I can just feel it all day, like the energy. So, it's not rocket science, but for me, it was, like, a really big change.
Leah 24:37
And it was super intentional, like I'm hearing you say I need to schedule. Like, everyone's gonna see this calendar, and here's where I'm doing this, and here's what I'm doing that. Like, you had to be super intentional about it. Good for you.
Chantelle 24:49
So, I became kind of, like, I run jokes that I'm like, passionate about protein now, because I talk about it for, like, our snack day at work, I was, like, bought a did a protein bar. Or like, choose their protein bars. So, I kind of, I just love it. It's fun to find a passion in it. Because prior to this, it felt like something that I had to do, and now it's not like, I like doing it every day. No, like, this morning I woke up, I was like, who I don't know I want to work out right now, but I was like, I'm going to, right?
Leah 25:18
Because I know how I'm going to feel after.
Chantelle 25:20
So, I just am grateful that I figured that out because otherwise, I'm not sure how much longer I could have gone. Because the demands are so intense, that it's just like, I don't know now I feel like I better look after myself. So, that's just my example.
Leah 25:38
That's a great example. Thank you for sharing that.
Leah 25:43
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Leah 26:07
So, every time someone sits in this chair, I ask them about a pivotal moment in the formation of their company. And everybody's got a few of these stories, trust me, but if you can think of one, when it was like, really the Do or Die moment for you. And you really were like, Okay, this is huge. Tell me about that moment for you.
Chantelle 26:25
Okay, so I knew you're gonna ask me that, so I narrowed it down to three. I didn't really want to tell us one because everyone talks about COVID, and then it starts to feel cliche, but that was kind of the most Do-or-die moment for me.
Leah 26:36
Please share it.
Chantelle 26:38
So, I'm just gonna talk through that one.
Leah 26:39
I love it.
Chantelle 26:41
So, the summer of 2019, just before COVID hit Calgary, I was, like, at my parent's cabin, and I was sitting there, and I was thinking about Tiller, and I was just feeling like, Man, this is like, I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel. This is really tough and really intense. And I think what I realized in reflecting on it’s because, like, I didn't really have anything differentiating me in the market. There's tons of agencies, there's tons of freelancers, there's tons of people that could help with brand or web. But I also knew that something that we were doing was special. I just hadn't named it or figured it out yet. And so, as a result, when you're not differentiated, it's hard to charge higher prices. It's harder to have a predictable and repeatable pipeline. There's a lot of sort of ripple effect issues that happen when you're not differentiated. So, I read this book called Niche Down. Have you ever heard that one before?
Leah 27:31
I feel like that's come up.
Chantelle 27:33
Yeah, like Christopher Lochhead, and I can't remember that I should have got the other author's name. Niche down. And basically, he kind of talked through the the power of niching down. And it was interesting because I was sitting there thinking, like, we kind of are the agency for all. We serve everybody, but we had started working in the tech space in 2015, and so we had lots of tech customers. We just hadn't actually positioned ourselves as an agency for tech, and he talks in the book about how you either position yourself or you get positioned by the market. And I thought, Oh, that's interesting. And then he kind of uses real examples of companies that decided to niche down, and it was the very thing that helped them scale. And it feels counterintuitive because you're like, I'm gonna narrow my audience, right? I might even be narrowing my offering, and yet that's gonna help me scale. It feels just kind of like a risk, but in the same breath, everything we were doing wasn't working, and I was reminded of that old saying, like, the cobbler's children don't have shoes. So, I'm sitting there being like, we actually do this for other companies. Like, we know how to position companies. We know how to help them with their value prop and their messaging. We know how to help them at a brand level, and yet, like we're spending all of our time doing that for all of our clients at the expense of figuring it out for ourselves, right? So, I decided that summer that we were going to position ourselves as the B2B, like the agency for B2B SaaS, which felt like a risk because of the time, I have a lot of customers that aren't in that space, and we were struggling at the time when we were figuring out how to do it, but we started to plant the seeds. We revisited our personas, we looked at our value prop. I came back from holidays, and I got, like, everybody in the boardroom, and we drew up the whole like new brand story. And we started to figure out how are we different than other agencies. And we just started to do what we do for other companies, for ourselves? We kind of made Tiller a client of the agency, and I think that was a really pivotal moment. But then fast forward so COVID hits, yes, and it's like, I'm standing in our nearly newly built office like it was like 90% complete. We had put, like, a lot into this, and we were building a space that we could grow the team to, like, 45 people, was our idea over the next couple years, once we moved in, and so I'm standing in the office and then find out that, like, COVID hit here, and I'm like, kind of stressed out, because I'm like, we just put all this energy into this office, and we're supposed to be moving in, like, in a month, and now everything's shut down. And naturally, like so many other people were faced with, you're trying to pivot to remote work. We'd never done that before. Tons of agencies do it, but we had never done it. Then the next week, we lose our biggest client, and I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like, it was a really tough client to lose at that exact point in time because I just hired someone to service that account, because it was so big, and all these things were happening, I'm like, we're supposed to be moving to this office like now we don't even need an office like this kind of what I'm thinking, the remote thing, losing our first client. But it also was an interesting moment because I started realizing that the work that we had done, like the summer before and leading up to this point, created a unique opportunity for us. And I could have never seen that coming, but because we had pivoted to focus on B2B SaaS, a lot of the companies that we were serving, they were losing some of their channels for marketing. So, we have a lot of clients, heavily dependent on events as an example, right? So, all of a sudden, it evaporates. That's gone. And they're like, what are we going to do? So, all this is happening at the same time I'm sitting there, all this is happening, and I'm like, my top thing was, I don't want to have to let anyone go. Because, of course, I'm hearing friends and family members and all these people saying, like, yeah, my company laid me off, and that was facing so many people. The entrepreneur me is like, I just do not want to have to let a single person go. So, with our new positioning in place, mixed with the desire to not have anyone be let go, I kind of just went into crazy sales mode like crazy. I just went crazy. I was working around the clock trying to sell as much as I possibly could, to refill the revenue we lost from the big customer leaving, and then also to see if we could continue to scale and almost take advantage of what was happening in the market at that time, and it ended up really paying off for us. But there were so many moments, because that actually is what really led to quite a bit of our growth. But there were so many moments and so many weeks in that period of time where I was just like, every day, I was like, am I going to have to let someone go? Because it was slow, it takes time, right? And I think it was just like a very stressful moment, but I'm also really grateful that we had done some of that work for ourselves because I look back now not knowing if we would have survived it, if we hadn't done that, right? So, it was, yeah, it was a stressful time, but I think it also really made us better, and it reminded me deeply that Tiller always has to be a priority in terms of, we can't be the cobblers kids situation ever again. Because it’s a super high-risk way to build a business, is like to de-prioritize your own brand. So, we needed to live the walk and or walk the talk and really do it. So, it was a big moment for us, for sure.
Leah 34:42
No kidding, yeah. So, reflecting on that now, I mean, what are some of the big takeaways from that period of time for you, maybe personally and for the organization?
Chantelle 32:52
Yeah, there's a few components to it. Because I think personally it was a moment where I realized how much my team drives me and like my clients and people drive me. I don't want to let anyone down, and I'm sure many entrepreneurs and founders can relate to that, but there's like a deep part of me that just really wanted to perform for the sake of my team because I think that was just a big thing that I realized in that moment. It showed me how important it was to build culture. It was like another time like we were talking about a few moments ago, about the importance of investing in culture and finding creative ways to do it, because suddenly the mechanisms that I had used to build culture were not there. So, it was like, how can we still invest in our culture in creative ways without the ability to be face-to-face? And so we did, we did some silly things. We launched a new website in that time frame. And I remember Brandon, our COO and I, we drove around with like, a big sign on the back of my car, and then, like, dropped off cookies at everybody's houses and stuff like that. And it was like, we just launched our website. We almost scraped some paint off the vehicle. It's probably not a good idea because we use, like, some fish wire to do it. So, not a good idea, but I think you just realized you got to, like, put in the effort and try to figure out ways to do it. So, that was kind of one thing that I learned. But I think really the biggest thing was that you have to really think ahead when you're building a company. You have to, like, find ways to future-proof your business. There's no magic bullet for that, and there's no actual future-proofing of your business. Like, fully, yeah. Like, like, you know, you can only do. There's no certainty. There's only so much you can do. But I think that we all do have levers. Like, I had levers in my hands, things that I could pull and adjust that would position Tiller to be more future-proof. So, even the way that we were managing our money at the time completely changed. There were a lot of things where it was like, you know, I didn't really, for 10 years, have an emergency fund as an example. And I was like, that example, that situation, reminded me of why you have one, right? And, like, we always should have one, not just when there's COVID, right? So, I think you learn a lot of things about, like, there's an unexpected situation that happened to all of us, and there were certain things that we had put in motion that helped us weather the storm and eventually thrive through it. But there were other things where I was like, Oh man, like we were fortunate that we didn't, you know, get wiped out because we didn't have that in place before. So, we've changed a lot of things in terms of, like, money management and practices, how we do revenue forecasting, how we do strategic planning, like there's a lot of things that we've changed, to try and I mean, hopefully, we never have another COVID. I'm just thinking like there's lots of other things that can happen. So, it's kind of just realizing you have to be really intentional about building that future, or you're really at a very high-risk place all the time.
Leah 35:44
You know what I'm just reflecting on here that it sounds to me like you learned so much going through that experience, but you mentioned that right off the top of our conversation how much you loved to learn. That's really what got you started in the first place. Is that one of the core values for you personally and Tiller?
Chantelle 36:00
Yeah, I think so. Like, I like to sometimes talk about learning from anything and everything, like, but you have to sift, right? So, you have to learn both muscles, like, you have to, like, consume. So, I think of myself as a little bit of a sponge because I could be watching a movie on a Saturday night and learn something and apply it to my business on Monday, and I'm and people will laugh about it, but I was just telling some people at work a couple of weeks ago that I watched a show that gave me inspiration for Tiller. But it's like, why not, right?
Leah 36:00
Why not take it from anywhere?
Chantelle 36:27
I think you can learn from anything and everything, but I think that it requires, like, you can't have an ego, to be really good at learning. So, I think as a culture, we've put a lot of emphasis on, like, no ego. We're all gonna learn from each other, and we're gonna sift even things that we can learn from other companies and other markets. We’ll sift what's relevant to us, but I think learning is a competitive advantage for sure.
Leah 36:47
Absolutely. Yeah. It is for us too. We lean to that a lot. Let's talk a little bit more about what you really love about being a Founder. You talked a little bit about this learning, but tell me what lights you up when you're a Founder.
Chantelle 36:59
Oh, I think, like most Founders, I really love the thrill of building something from nothing. And then once your business is established, and then you're scaling it, you're constantly building and reinventing off of the foundation that you have established. And there's just something really exciting about that, right? Because some of the things you try are just gonna fail. But it's kind of like, you don't have to sit there living with regret, right? So, it's just like, it's really exciting to have that flexibility to actually try and create something unique and different. So, I really love that piece of it. I really love building a culture. I know I've touched on that in the building of a team that's really fun. And I really love helping people realize their potential. I think that's like, the leadership side of me that's really deep. Like, I really love that. So, it's been probably, like, the most rewarding part is when I'm like, we hire someone on our team, and we see what they're capable of, and we often see a lot more in them than they see in themselves, and then over time, through opportunity and exposure and learning, they have the opportunity to grow themselves. And those are the moments that, like, make my eyes tear up. You know, it's just like, it's really exciting. Some people have just, like, transformed, and it's really cool to be, to be a part of that, for sure. And in the same way, for our clients, they have so much potential, and oftentimes they just need a little bit of help overcoming some of those hurdles. We come alongside them. We help them overcome those hurdles, and some of those have had a huge impact on the trajectory of that company, and that's really fulfilling. So, I think there's just, I love helping people realize their potential.
Leah 38:37
I love that. We talked a little bit about how you sort of protect your own personal tank and stay filled up. But is there something you talked about the exercise? Is there other things that you're really mindful of to ensure that you're able to keep being this Founder that you want to be?
Chantelle 38:50
I think that there are a lot of different components to it. Yeah, for sure, I think that I'm mindful of, like, trying to be someone who's very reflective on, like, I really tried to be very reflective about what's going on and take moments to really pause and look at what I'm learning.
Leah 39:09
Do you actually schedule that in because I've often thought I'd love to do that more, but I almost find I have to put like time in my calendar to do so?
Chantelle 39:15
Yeah, I should schedule it in. I'm currently doing like, a calendar optimizing thing. And I was like, I'm trying to put in blocks for some, like, deeper focused work, So, I think that's a good idea. Actually. It's more like something, yeah, exactly. Yeah, every day, yeah, yeah. Like, I would say sometimes on Saturday mornings, I just like to, like, have a cup of coffee and, like, sit there, and sometimes I read, and sometimes I'm catching up on emails or something, but it's like a no-pressure situation. And sometimes those are good moments where I like, really like to reflect, because I think sometimes when you are moving so quickly, you don't even realize what you're doing. I didn't know I had that habit, or I didn't know that I've done the same thing 50 times, and it failed every time. You know it's like easy to miss what's going on. So, I think that's a really key piece. Is like trying to reflect. I also try, as best I can, to ask people for feedback in different ways. So, you know, like, is there something that I could do that would help you more in this area? Because then I do think sometimes there's hesitation to give your Founder feedback. I think that can be a challenge. So, I think creating space where people can offer feedback does help you, as a founder, figure out how you can grow because we all have our blind spots. And I think that's really powerful because it's the people that are, like, literally right beside you, right? And it's like, what could I do to better support you? Or can I remove roadblocks for you? They're small things, but I would say that I learn a lot through my team, and I'm really appreciative of that because it helps me to level up. So, for sure, that's another area I would say.
Leah 40:47
That makes me think of the conversation we had in the pre-interview about intergenerational teams. It must be really interesting to have people of all different generations giving you that feedback, for example, or reflecting on the business and its growth and trajectory.
Chantelle 41:03
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I know I said that I was really intimidated by hiring people that are older and more experienced than me, but I've learned to become less intimidated by that, thankfully. Yes. So, yeah, our age range is like 24 to 63 now, and it's it's really exciting because I'm the youngest person on our leadership team, and I am very fortunate. My leadership team is absolutely fantastic. They're so supportive and so willing to share what they've learned and to be supportive. And there's been moments like I went to one person on our leadership team and I said, I don't even know, how do I do strategic planning? Yeah, and she's been in leadership teams and other organizations larger than mine, and so why not ask her, right? Like, what do you think and like? So, I feel like through hiring people, I've gained a community, but also, I've gained people that can offer their expertise and their insights that have really been helpful to Tiller. And so I think the mix of different generations and different ideas and different experiences is really powerful, especially when everyone's pulling in the same direction. Because then it's not about who's better, whose ideas better. It's really about the sharing and finding the right path. And again, that's why we're all big about no ego in our culture. So, yeah, intergenerational teams are powerful.
Leah 42:22
Yeah, that's cool. You've talked a little bit about impact already in this conversation, but I want to be intentional about this question because at Thin Air Labs, we're very intentional about creating meaningful human impact, and I know that's really important to you, so let's just talk a little bit about what impact means to you and at Tiller.
Chantelle 42:37
Sure. So, at Tiller, as a company and as an agency, I have huge empathy for Founders. Like I have a huge amount of empathy. So, I get really excited like we work with all these Founders and these marketers, and I just have so much empathy for the challenge that there is in founding and scaling a company. And so I think, like the idea of building an agency Tiller that actually helps those B2B SaaS Founders overcome some of those challenges on the path to realizing their goals is really just fulfilling work. So, I think that our hope is to be part of really helping to accelerate the tech ecosystem but also our individual client success and that looks different for each client, right? We have some clients that are trying to get to first revenue. We have some that are trying to get from Series A to Series B raise. We have some that are growing through M&A activity, and that's what's going on for them. And so they have specific goals, revenue goals. There's different goals that each and every one of them have. We really want to help them achieve that and be able to demonstrate measurable impact. So, that's like a very client centric piece to it. And then I think, as an agency, we also have been involved in various nonprofit and community-related initiatives. The one most near and dear to my heart is Lemonade Day. It's a program based out of Houston, and it's active in 90 communities, 1.5 million kids have been part of this program before, but I came across a few years ago because I was Googling, like, different community initiatives that we could be part of that would just really align with Tiller and some of my personal passions. And so I came across Lemonade Day, started in Houston, and it's basically a program that you can bring to your community, and it's the concept is that a whole bunch of kids on the same day every year will host lemonade stands all over the city. But leading up to that, they get access to a curriculum that helps them build a little business plan. And it's so cute, so amazing. So, it helps them with setting goals. And when it comes to money related goals. They're asked to set, spend, share and save goals. So, it also promotes kids giving back to the community at a young age, which I love. And it teaches financial literacy. It teaches branding. So, we ran the program in 2023 for the first time. We brought the program here. We ran it. It was a great success. It was great. We learned a lot because it was the first time, yeah, and there's, of course, challenges with bringing the program here. We had over 160 kids participate, which was awesome. This year, we were able to apply all of our learnings and do things a little bit differently. And we had over 360 kids participate this time around.
Leah 45:14
360 kids?
Chantelle 45:16
Yeah, it was a crazy day. That was July 20th, and we had all of our like taste testers running around the city, buying lemonade from kids. And then we basically host a Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award Competition and a best branding competition. And so then, after the program, the kids submit their business results. They submit revenue, profit, they talk about what they learned through the experience. What would they do differently next time? How do they want to give back to the community? And they share all this. And then we essentially go through a judging process and find our winners. And then this year we did like a live sort of stream award ceremony for all of the kids, and it's just the best. For me, my dad introduced me to like, entrepreneurship when I was eight. My sister and I were selling soda on the golf course in Louisiana when we lived there. And so I didn't know it at the time, but it ended up helping expose me to something that I didn't really know I was going to fall in love with later in life. And so I think just the idea of introducing the next generation of kids to entrepreneurship is just really exciting to me. So, we hope to keep growing the program over the coming years.
Leah 46:26
I love it. Lemonade day. Yeah, go for it. Wonderful. As we start to wrap up this conversation, I ask everybody the same two questions, and so we'll do that with you. You're the Founder of Tiller. You're writing the story for Tiller. How do you hope the story for Tiller goes?
Chantelle 46:40
That's a great question. I have many iterations. We actually just had a leadership huddle last week, and we were talking a lot about this. What we're really excited about in the next 5 to 10 years is we really want to expand our service offering and get a little bit closer to the customer acquisition piece of marketing. So, we have a lot of services that are closely connected to that, but we've made the decision to expand our capabilities and our services to get a little bit closer to the acquisition piece, so that's driving the qualified traffic and helping convert the buyers on the website or through landing pages, and we think that that's going to better help solve some of our client's problems. So, we're excited about that. But I think thinking big picture that's just one step towards the big picture. We're trying to build a world-class level agency that serves B2B SaaS, and our focus right now is North America, and we really want to work hard to own that space and to raise the bar for agencies in that space and to sort of help imagine the agency of the future. So, that's really what we're after. We really want to scale this thing and really set the bar high for what those agencies look like. So.
Leah 47:46
That sounds very exciting.
Chantelle 47:48
Yeah, very excited about that.
Leah 47:50
Okay, and then as a Founder, you're the Founder of this company, how do you hope your own personal story goes?
Chantelle 47:58
Well, I have lots of, like, personal goals that I would like to achieve. And I think in the Tiller context, I really want to grow to be the CEO that Tiller needs. And I want to start to, like, live in the space of I need to be the CEO that Tiller needs 24 months from now, like, now, right? Like, you always have to be ahead. You kind of have to be ahead of the organization. So, you can create this, like, healthy tension that pulls the company forward. I'm really working on that, like, public speaking is like a simple thing, like, I need to get really good at that, and even networking. I mean, I'm more of a behind the scenes type Founder CEO, but I know that what Tiller needs is for me to have a stronger presence in the community. And so I think there's opportunities for me to actually overcome some of my own fears and get a little bit uncomfortable and practice building those skills that I think will be really helpful to growing Tiller and our presence in this market and others. So, I think that's a really important piece. Long term, I would love to be an angel investor one day. I would love to do some investing. I would love to just get really involved in the tech ecosystem and in a bigger way. So, I've dabbled in some of that a little bit, but that's sort of a future aspiration.
Leah 49:08
Wow, that's so exciting. I'm so excited for you and for you and for Tiller. Chantelle, thank you so much for this conversation.
Chantelle 49:14
Thank you for having me.
Leah 49:24
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Leah 50:09
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Taking the reins of a struggling tech company might seem daunting, but for David Lod, it was an opportunity to build something extraordinary from the ground up. As CEO of VEERUM, David inherited a company facing significant challenges—from financial instability to a fractured internal culture. Rather than backing down, he leaned into the adversity, focusing on refining the company’s core software and transforming its workplace culture into one built on trust and collaboration.
In this episode, David shares how he navigated VEERUM through the early days of the pandemic, doubling the company’s size and client base at a time when most businesses were shrinking. He opens up about the tough decisions, including downsizing the team and shifting the company’s focus, while building a supportive environment that empowered his employees to thrive. From securing critical capital to overcoming personal and professional hurdles, David's journey is a powerful lesson in leadership, resilience, and creating lasting impact.
Tune in to hear how David turned a near-failure into a fast-growing tech leader and how his approach to crisis and opportunity helped shape the future of VEERUM.
About David Lod
David is the CEO of VEERUM. Under his leadership, VEERUM has experienced tremendous growth, becoming a recognized powerhouse in the world of heavy-industry asset management and visualization.
Prior to joining VEERUM David was responsible for building and managing critical data centres facilities for Shaw Communications Inc as VP and GM overseeing the P&L, operations, key client relationships and product development.
Previously, he was Vice President of Enterprise Sales for Rogers Communications Inc. and Executive Vice President & Co-Owner for Pivot Data Centres (a high-growth firm that was acquired by Rogers Communications Inc. in 2013). David has supported clients across the world in his career.
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Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact David Lod:
Website: VEERUM.comLinkedin: David Lod Email: [email protected]--
Transcript
David 00:01
My best friend from junior kindergarten, he went the software route, and has been a CTO in a bunch of construction tech, Big Pharma software companies, and had an incredible background doing that. And him and I have been best friends forever, and we always wanted to work together. So when I got on the bench here as CEO, I said, Rob, I think I found the one.
Leah 00:24
Hi, thanks for being here and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems. And they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:08
Joining me in studio today is David Lod, CEO of VEERUM, a platform that empowers teams with their visual operations capabilities, allowing companies around the world to manage their industrial assets in 3D. David, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
David 01:24
Thank you, Leah, thrilled to be here today. So.
Leah 01:26
Thank you. Well, let's start right at the beginning and talk a little bit about like VEERUM. Let's start there with what VEERUM is today, and then we'll go back a little bit in time. So let's start with what VEERUM Is today.
David 01:37
You described it spot on. This is about changing industrial operations for large facilities and assets. So these are traditionally oil and gas facilities. They could be utility, large manufacturing facilities as well, as you know, utility and mines as well. So what we saw was a very antiquated approach to working, providing operations and maintenance, project controls construction with all these large facilities. So what VEERUM has been able to do is create what I call a single pane of glass. So you just log into your one laptop and you can see your engineering models, your geospatial data, your document management, everything together, including your real-time, whether it's IoT or SCADA, information, all at your fingertips so that all of our clients can work visually and in 3D. So it's really about almost a gamification, or creating that Video Game instance of these large industrial assets.
Leah 02:34
Wow. And so, what does that do for these companies? Like, how does that help them? What's the benefit?
David 02:39
Well, if you go back in time and you think about, you know, having to change, let's say a pump, or look for, you know, a pressure safety valve, any of these things that would be, you know, found in these industrial facilities. There was really no visual way to understand where they were, what they were because you're looking off old, antiquated spreadsheets, right, or old schematics and stuff like that. So our clients are now using this to really drive productivity, improve safety, drastically reduce costs. So as an example, rather than having to do maintenance planning and go out to site and do field-based measurements, you can actually now do all this online. Your employees that you do want to keep safe and out of hazardous conditions, they don't actually have to enter into these high-risk scenarios to do this type of work. It can actually be done remotely, and all that information that was generally never trusted. Or it could be in seven or eight, you know, legacy systems. We brought it all together and put it into that three-dimensional model where you can, now, you know, walk through in that immersive experience and, you know, collaborate and work in that fashion, and that's really where the whole industry is headed. And we've spent basically the last 10 years almost educating the market of that potential. Right now, we're kind of at that cusp where we're getting pulled going, Yeah, it's time. We got to do this. You know, we've been fortunate. It's basically, you know, the advent of cloud computing and that being accepted with oil and gas and a lot of these major industries, as well as the commoditization of what I call data capture, meaning laser scan, satellite imagery, any of that those data sets, those primary data sets, that you need. So kind of those two things are crossing a path, and VEERUM is like, right at the end of capture on that. So.
Leah 04:21
Wow. So this is like, game-changing for these companies, literally, like, they're now able to see everything right in front of they don't have to be there. They don't have to have their employees there. This is incredible.
David 04:31
We get great quotes when we show clients like this is incredibly eye-opening. You know, we kind of saw this in, you know, an old Tom Cruise movie or something like that. It completely works. It's completely scalable; it's affordable. And the industry is all moving in this direction right now. So it is changing the way people work, whether it's maintenance, planning, operations, you know, capital construction, execution, because at the end of the day, it's the data on these facilities that is so valuable to clients, and they lose it at every turn, or they go recollect it, or they send people the site to figure out what's going on there. So we become a primary repository and visual engine for them to work differently.
Leah 05:12
That's cool. I love it. And how many employees do you have now?
David 05:15
Yeah, we're a little over 50 employees. And yeah, headquartered right here in Calgary.
Leah 05:21
Yes, love it. Love it. And who are your clients? These were, I mean, assuming big oil and gas companies.
David 05:27
Yeah, if you, you know, just look outside the door here and look at all the logos on the top of the big buildings. We've got most of those as clients today. We've got, you know, the largest oil and gas company in the world, some of the largest mining organizations. But we also have an ability to scale down and provide value for clients that might just have a small facility manufacturing, maybe even a single well pad. So we've got an opportunity to scale and provide value. You know, we're a software platform, and clients are able to leverage it both ways. So you know, ExxonMobil is a public client of ours as well. And, you know, it took us a long time to kind of get through there, but they're actually a leading organization. They're kind of leading the way for a lot of, you know, oil and gas up and upstream, midstream and downstream around how they're going to work visually out of reality first, and not off of legacy engineering models.
Leah 06:17
Wow. So exciting. I love this story, but what I really love is how you came in to this company. So that's what I want to dig into. Of course, we're talking about venture building in this podcast, so I really want to dig into that. So normally, we talk to the Founders of the company who created it from the beginning. But in your case, it was the Founders that brought you in and said, basically, save us. Help us fix this. Tell me, walk me through how you were brought into this organization.
David 06:44
Yeah, yeah. So absolutely, not the Founder, but I kind of say, you know, I found her, right?
Leah 06:51
I found her. Yeah, exactly.
David 06:54
Yeah. So, VEERUM had started basically about three years before I took over as CEO, and it had, you know, three primary Founders of the organization, and they were able to raise some seed money and get the business going, but it was certainly struggling, both in what I call strategic execution and trying to do probably too many things with limited amount of capital, right? So, they were into robotics. They were into, you know, providing almost internet in a box for these remote field sites. And then also they had this software application that they were generating. And that's really where the, you know, the Genesis, or the idea was in these other areas where almost to support the software requirements, right? Because the industry kind of wasn't ready there. And it's kind of comical when you take a step back and look at what they were trying to do earlier, it was, we're into robotics, so they're taking on Boston Dynamics, internet in a box. we're taking on SpaceX, and then we have a software platform, right? So it's, you need a lot of capital to take on, you know, Boston Dynamics, SpaceX, and have an incredible software platform. So, you know, they took that institutional venture capital money in a seed payment. So, of course, you establish a board, right? And you know, the board recognized too, there were some challenges. And you know, a lot of, you know, startup scale-up. So can appreciate this. You know, you bring in money, you hire up. And you know, revenue can solve all things, but if revenue dries up, you've got a new challenge on your hands. So, you know, we weren't getting the, you know, the client traction that was originally intended. So, you know, the board had approached me, and I had to meet with the previous CEO and Co-Founder and say, Listen, we can turn this around. It really came down to probably five or six months of capital left in the business. Significant burn rate in revenue went down to zero. This was going to need to be a hyper-focus on the software, which I knew had great opportunity. And the original Genesis that came from the Founders was construction progress monitoring in that visual way that I've been describing earlier. And they had some early traction with that, and it had a ton of opportunity, but you need great software, a great team, and the market needs to be ready to kind of consume it, right? So there were some early adopters, but it wasn't quite there yet. So we had to restrategize, get rid of the, you know, the robotics, you know, the internet in the box, really focus on basically rebuilding that software. And so the interesting part for me was, you know, the board had approached me and, you know, kind of shortlisted and got down to, we'd like you to take this on. And you also need to convince the CEO, who's now moving out of the business, who will still have equity in but won't be in an operational capacity. Another Founder, no equity left in the business and won't be operating in a third that's staying in and has equity. And it's kind of like, here's the final swing at the bat. Do you want to take a run at this? So there was this whole cultural thing, and almost a little bit, you know, it's kind of awkward, right? It's like, sure, I know this was your baby, but you're out–
Leah 10:08
No kidding.
David 10:09
Can I hold her and see if I can, you know, get her to year one at this stage, right after post-funding and but they were all supportive. The board was great through that transition. It was kind of open kimono. And it was, do you want to try to do this? And so I said, Sure.
Leah 10:26
Okay. But now, why would you say yes to that? I mean, like, when I think of this, I think of like, this company in a really desperate state, and you're like, I'll give it a go. Like that kind of seems wild to me. Why would you take that on? Yeah, it's, I don't know, maybe
David 10:39
Yeah, it’s, I don’t know, maybe have some defect in the brain or something like that, but no, I really enjoy a challenge. And every role I've had in my career, I've never wanted to take on, you know, a position where the previous individual who was there, it was gold and it's running smoothly. Everything is great. I've been more of a this is a disaster. Can we fix this, make it better, and then move on to the next challenge? So I've always liked that, and I've worked at big companies. So I started my career at IBM. I worked for Sean Rogers, right, similar to U of Rogers, with large telecom cables, but I also had time with smaller, struggling businesses, which pivot data centers was at the time that I participated with them, running Sales and Marketing for them. So when VEERUM came around, I kind of saw it as okay. One. I get the problem that they can potentially solve. I get the software and the technology. I get how critical these facilities are, and I get enterprise B-to-B sales overall. So this thing has a shot. Now. It's all about timing, right? Is the market timing right there? And can we resell a new story to bring in more capital? So it looked like an exciting opportunity, and I've always had either, you know, VP, General Manager, and I've owned PNL, and had exposure to running a sales organization or operations, but I never had the ultimate called the CEO title. And I thought, what better way to do it, right? Like, let's take on something that is challenged very much so at this point in time. Let's see where we can take it. And yeah, here we are today. So it's been big ups, bigs, downs. And, yeah, we were having so much fun.
Leah 12:23
Yeah, okay, well, we need to dig into, like, how you actually did that, because it's a lot more than what you've just said. It's also about, like, the people. You know, an organization is about people as well, right? Not just the product and the market and all of that, but it's about the people. So tell me how you actually came into an organization when I'm sure people were fighting all the time and not working with each other, and it just wasn't working. How did you come in there and fix that?
David 12:48
Yeah, it was something that I told Scott, who is one of the Co-Founders and still working in our business right now as well. I said, if I can do anything that'll improve this business, it'll be changing the culture, and we'll make this a, you know, a great place to work, and people will want to be here, and they'll be very loyal and excited to be part of the story. And he gravitated to that, and he said that's certainly missing where we're at right now, because we had a development organization, software side that was not getting along with product, that was not getting along with sales, that, you know, marketing and everything else. It was very toxic, right, when we looked at it so, and I think it was just because, you know, forced growing, not having enough focus previously. And then, you know, exiting the original sort of Founders out to, you know, there's a lot of loyalty to individuals in an organization. And then there's, you know, you get into things where some people were promised maybe equity and other stuff that never materialized. So you get into a position of, okay, I've inherited this. Now, how do we make this better? Now, VEERUM previously, when it had its seed funding, was a little over 30 people, and it had to get trimmed down to about, you know, 15, and I had to bring it down. I think we were at about eight, eight or nine, and then the software needed to be refactored as well. So we're in a market where it's tough to get software developers, and so I said one of my key critical hires here that I'm going to need is I need a CTO, and difficult to come by now, if you can find a CTO that can get right into the code, understand the business challenges that can lead a team that can talk at an investor and board level, you've got a unicorn. So happened to be that my best friend from junior kindergarten, so that's sort of been, you know, 40 years ago, he went the software route and has been a CTO in a bunch of, you know, construction tech, Big Pharma, software companies, and had an incredible background doing that. And him and I have been best friends forever, and we always wanted to work together. So when I got that on the bench here as CEO, I said, Rob, I think I found the one, and I need a CTO. And of course, you know, I put them through the wringer and made them interview him and go through with other candidates. But he was the guy we needed because he had been through the, you know, near bankruptcy, grow it, you know, execute it, sell it, stages. So he's so he's had that. It's when I brought him in the trust for him, and I was already there, right? And that's a big piece of it. And then it was about hiring the right people and building out the right team, and, you know, celebrating the wins that we had and the momentum along the way. So we went from, you know, nine to over 50 people now, and we have a third-party HR firm that we work with, as most, you know, scale-ups do. And you know, they kind of did a test on, you know, engagement and effectiveness, basically, when I had taken over the helm, and we were, you know, maybe at two or three out of 10, like we were, we were in big trouble. It's just because it was, you know, a challenging time. But, you know, in the last three years, we've been awarded Great Place to Work in Canada. It's not like we hit that minimum threshold of 65% we've gotten 98-94/93%, so.
Leah 16:01
That's incredible.
David 16:03
That's a big turnaround, and it all comes down to having the right leadership team, transparency with all your employees, right? Everyone's adults here, and making them understand what we're doing, that we're making meaningful impact and creating a really awesome culture and environment.
Leah 16:20
Wow, clearly, that's what I've heard over and over again.
David 16:023
And we're having fun–
Leah 16:24
–And you're having fun, right? You want to have fun when you're doing your work, for sure. But I want to dig into even more about how did this feel to you as this guy coming in and doing this incredibly hard work, you know when you're reducing the company first and then building it back up. How does that feel to you? Like, how do you process that emotionally even?
David 16:46
I certainly have to give a shout-out to my wife for being highly supportive through that. Lots of long hours and support. We had a lot of we had young, young, young children at the time too. Every day you get, like, a little glimmer of hope or something shiny, and you're like, Okay, listen, like I had a good call with a client. There's possibility here, but then you get, you know, just some bizarre, terrible, down trough, right? Like, could be anything. I remember when one point, I got sued, right? Yeah, so that was a low one, too–
Leah 17:16
I bet.
David 17:18
So, how do you deal with that? Right? Now, I'm trying to raise capital, and now I've got to throw into my due diligence piece here. I got an active potential lawsuit, right? So was it was unfounded. It was a competitor. We beat them in an account, and they thought that we stole some other code, which absolutely wasn't the case. But as you're going through these emotional piece, I remember our lawyer at the time. He said, Well, I got some good news for you. And I said, What's that? He goes, you haven't made it till you've been sued. So we're on the right path.
Leah 17:45
We’re on the right path. Something's going well.
David 17:48
Yeah, and you kind of just have to look for those little rays of light and keep moving a little bit forward. And you can have a big milestone to achieve. But every day, are we going in the right direction, right? And can you keep that drive and passion in the company and get that buy-in to pull it off? And, yeah, we've assembled an incredible team, and I think, you know, even today, we have a wins channel in our chat, where it could be a client win. It could be we cracked something in software development. It could be someone got their Canadian citizenship. It could be whatever. We have everyone posted in there. And if it's like the good news channel that you get to go and say, look at all the great things that we're pulling off together here, right? And it just kind of feeds the engine, so it gets you through those hard times.
Leah 18:31
Sure it does. Sure it does, as the guy, though, leading the ship, I'm curious about how you negotiate those moments when you do get the call from the lawyer or that kind of thing, and then you two seconds later have to turn around and be like, Hey, we're gonna raise some money, or hey, look at all the wins in this channel. You know, I know that you've got a lot on your plate when that's happening. How do you make those turns, even in an emotional context?
David 18:57
Yeah, well, I think a lot of people say, you never look phased. You're unfazed. So I go from like, Hey, this is the happiest day of my life, and I think that has to do with my Finnish heritage. I think we're just kind of, you know, even keel, but you can't dwell on bad news, and you can celebrate the wins, but you can't be satisfied with them. You got to keep going, right? So I kind of look at these as just instances in time. So that's kind of how I think my brain is hardwired to work, right? So it's like, you know, we want a big contract. That's great. Kay, what is next? How do we make this better? And yeah, bad news or challenging news comes in daily, as you're, you know, leading an organization. It could be operations, finance, sales, something like, nothing better than $0 oil and a global pandemic within 30 days of each other, when that's my primary market we're trying to raise capital. I go, Well, we're in big trouble now, but there's got to be a silver lining in here, right? And our head of sales. Trevor. He's got a saying that he brings forth. He even has a tattoo on his arm called Wéijī, and it's basically crisis and opportunity, right? It's an understanding of there is opportunity and all the chaos.
Leah 20:12
That's so cool. I mean, I always ask everybody about one pivotal moment. I have a feeling you may have just mentioned it was there a pivotal moment when you knew, like, okay, yes, this is a bit of a gong show from the beginning, but was there one moment when you're like, I don't know if we're gonna make this work. Was it related to the pandemic? I'm just curious.
David 20:30
Yeah, that's a good one, because it was in our early days. So I'd only been CEO, I think we're probably less than a year and a half, little over a year, we sign a lease we move out of what was the GE Accelerator Center at the time, or, like, we need to grow up, get our own space right, and put our flag here. So, we get our lease. We move in November, and then, you know, March, bang, you've got, you get a pandemic. And I remember bringing the team, which is only like 13-14, people at the time, and said, Listen, pack up your stuff like you might not be back for two weeks. Because we all know what's going to happen here, right?
Leah 21:08
I remember that two-week window.
David 21:12
Yeah, three years later, go blow the dust off your desk. But you know, we were going to need to raise capital probably within, you know, 9-10, months of sort of pandemic hits. So that's a challenge. And then oil goes to $0 in fact, like negative $7 one day. Remember that? So at the time, I think 95% of the companies working with us were were oil and gas. So I'm like, they fundamentally aren't worth anything on paper, right this second. How are we going to get them to buy this new, exciting technology and change the way people work? And, you know, we kind of strategize and talk with the board. I said, we've got an opportunity here. It's either we're going to turtle and preserve cash and just see what this looks like, whether the oil corrects over time, or this pandemic blows over. Or we lean in now and we, you know, we hire, and we accelerate, and we hope people figure out how to work on Zoom, and we get these demos going, and we decided to push in.
Leah 22:15
How did you come to that decision?
David 22:18
You know, we had some early indications with some clients that they were going to explore this. And I think, you know, the first kind of two weeks of all of this, everybody, they couldn't get a hold of anybody. But also, we had a Zoom call, which is again relatively new, with a large pipeline company in town here that we had been talking to previously. And a sales cycle was for us, usually, like, 12 months to get one of these big guys to potentially move. So we had met with them earlier, and we, you know, we had some other calls, but then we had this Zoom call, and there must have been like 30 or 40 people from this company on–
Leah 22:53
On this call?
David 22:55
Yeah, and I was going, what is this, right? And it seemed like everyone is gravitating to, okay? You know, we got to be on Zoom meetings to be present in the organization, but we're providing this opportunity for clients to work remotely and monitor assets remotely. So now I've got this major challenge with people can't go to site, right? So can they accelerate the deployment with VEERUM at the time, which was great, and we got to find a way to take OPEX cost out of our cost model, now, right? Because now, you know, oil is suppressed here, but the only way you're really going to relinquish any cost of the businesses with the adoption of technology the right way and our other avenue, and we leaned on this really hard, was we can actually create these digital twins for clients in under 48 hours. So this is not a six month deployment, multi-millions of dollars, big lift. Second I have access to your engineering or reality scan models you're now working in your environment. We can do integrations with, you know, SAP maximum, all the other systems as well. So when I saw that, I said, Something's going to happen here. Right now, these clients are going to make decisions faster than they ever have, because they either have no choice, and there's a bigger group around saying, I want to be a part of this as well, right? Because they're like, Oh, this is the future, right? It's we're forced to change. So we signed a bunch of deals really quickly in that first sort of 60 days of those challenges. And the board agreed, said, Okay, let's lean in. And we did, and we were able to raise money through the pandemic. We doubled our business and client count, which wasn't that big at the time. It's still great over that, you know, first sort of 90 days of that impact. So it was a pivotal moment where, I think a lot of other companies, they didn't have that client, you know, the client touched that understanding of client pain points and requirements. You know, if we were earlier and our software wasn't quite there, we would have turtled to preserve cash, and that would have probably been end of the road, really. Because it’s a tough story. So our story was one of growth through two challenging headwinds that were not in our control.
Leah 25:05
That's incredible. Do you take a moment to process that? Like I'm just sitting here–
David 25:10
Only when I recounted back to you, and I'm like, geez, we're crazy. I used to have a great head of hair back then, too, but that's gone. So that's probably part of it.
Leah 25:19
That's amazing.
Leah 25:21
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Leah 25:46
It is remarkable, though, that you were able to do this at that time when so many companies, yeah, to your point, had to turtle or fold altogether. Once you started seeing some of those wins, how did you communicate that to the team, help them understand that, yes, we are going in the right direction, and we're on to something, and this is really working.
David 26:05
You know, the traditional the all teams meeting. So we'd have our Zoom calls, we'd have updates, but like when the pandemic hit, as an example, we we had regular touch points with individuals on teams, and we would alternate. So I'd have my schedule of here, it's the seven employees I'm talking to this week, and then it would alternate, and, you know, Trevor Rob or Chris or whoever would also take, take those calls. We kept that regular human touch when we couldn't do it in the office anymore, and I think that was important to to communicate that we're doing okay. We also looked through that period, even though we were kind of growing and cash gets tight. We, you know, as a team. We, you know, furloughed to a certain extent, and kind of reduce some of the payroll, which is, which is painful and a hard decision and discussion to have, right? So, we did that, but we were able to pull the business out of those challenging times, get more capital in the business, which was really exciting. I love sharing this. And the board was an agreement that we actually repaid all the furloughed amounts through that.
Leah 27:05
Really? That's huge.
David 27:07
Yeah, and so, like, that's a, you know, there's a money component to that, but that's a cultural kind of Capstone that you get to play. And then people get it, like, okay, the board, the leadership, everyone's all in on this. And when we can do it, we'll do it right, right, fairly.
Leah 27:23
I can see you getting emotional about that. That was really meaningful to you.
David 27:25
Yeah, it was, yeah, because we, you know, we, and I think I told you this previously, when we were a company of 30 people, we spoke 18 different languages, like, very diverse. So we have a lot of new Canadians, right? And lot of young families and all that. So, you know, every dollar counts, right? And it's just like, how can we get through this together? Like, are we better to, you know, do you take 30% of your your head count away, or can you get through this tough point together, and then that team bonds, right? And make it happen, because all you're going to do is going to have to go rehire that again. But can you get through this with that same horsepower and that dedication? And everybody realized it was happening in the market, and it wasn't. It was something we had to do. It a necessity, but we did it all together.
Leah 28:15
You've mentioned the word together a few times. It's really important to you, isn't it, to have that culture of trust where you work together to tackle these huge problems.
David 28:24
Oh yeah, you have to have a high trust team. That's the only way that you're going to, you know, move forward. You have to be able to collaborate openly. I'm not going to be able to do and I'm not the smartest person by any means in my organization. Right? My job is around securing the capital for the business to grow and putting the right people in the right chairs right and then trusting them to put the next right people in the chairs on their organizations and teams so that we can move forward. One of the things we developed, which was our five values that spell out the word S.O.L.I.D so that means Supportive, Optimistic, Listening, Innovative and Dedicated, but that means to our clients, to our team, our company, as well as to our community. And so when Rob's organization is hiring a new software developer, all I have to ask is, you know, are they solid? And if I get the thumbs up, then full steam ahead, yeah.
Leah 29:16
So, you have those values. You live by them. You hire by them. You grow by them.
David 29:20
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You got to make those visual, right? We sell visual operators and everything you got to see in front of you, got to understand it. It's got to be consistent. We need to perform in that matter, right?
Leah 29:31
Yeah, that's incredible. You take this venture building this company, very personally, don't you?
David 29:36
Yeah, I very much, even though I didn't found it, you know, the Genesis came from Ahmed, Scott and Steve, and they got it going. Yeah, this is very important to me. And, you know, I know everyone in the company, everyone, when they start with us, I spend time with them, to meet them. Oh, you know what brought them to VEERUM and what did they do in their past? What are their interests? We've created an awesome community within VEERUM, you know, high achieving and all of that. And it is important to me.
Leah 30:07
I can tell. I can tell. I also know that when you take something very personally and it's your work, it can sometimes be hard to look after yourself. You know, remember that I can take a break from this. I can step away from this for a minute, I can do what I need to do to recharge or stay well, how do you do that for yourself?
David 30:23
Yeah, I think I'd be guilty of maybe not doing it enough, but some of the sort of the steps I've taken, so certainly you have to be able to kind of disconnect, right? And a big move we made for our family as well as we moved up to Canmore a year ago full-time, which we put the kids in school out there, which is great. And it is an absolute mindset shift to be driving into the mountains after your end of day at work and then disconnecting that way. So I think that's been very helpful, you know, try to do more hiking and physical activity. And then, even for myself, driving in in the morning and having that hour of kind of silence from, you know, six to seven put on a podcast of something, you know, I'd like to learn about, so I'll have to listen to more of your podcast.
Leah 31:04
Yes, please do this.
David 31:07
But those are good. It's just kind of letting your brain think about, you know, working on the business versus in the business, and then, you know, on yourself. And you know, at the end of the day, don't take yourself too seriously. I think we do that. But, yeah, I'm certainly guilty of when you're getting down to, we need to raise money, and we're getting down to final, you know, final dollars in the account, I don't think of 50 employees. I think of, you know, the 300 people that they're directly supporting, whether it's kids and parents or otherwise. So, you know, term heavy weighs the crown, is certainly there, and it's but it's important, and I reach out to our very supportive board members, you know, other call it advisors and colleagues I've, you know, met throughout my career, and try to talk through some of that stuff and with my wife, of course, so you can't carry it all yourself. I've certainly been guilty of that. I'm trying to get better at it.
Leah 32:04
Right, right? I hear that a lot in that space. I'm trying to get better at this, trying to really access–
David 32:09
If only I had time to get better.
Leah 32:11
Exactly. But I, you know, I hear it, especially from some of even the younger founders that I speak to on this podcast. They're very intentional about looking for that support, using that support, making sure that they sort of maintain those relationships, to keep them personally going.
David 32:27
Yeah, I think with, probably, with younger founders and, you know, CEOs of these organizations, I think, you know, mental health and all of that has sort of been right there when they kind of got through university, and it's sort of in front center, certainly, generally more accepted and supported, you know, if you go into sort of my generation, you know. So I was born in the 70s, late 70s, right? And we were raised on, you know, hose water and neglect, right?
Leah 32:52
Oh, yeah, totally. We were feral out there.
David 32:56
That's right. So it's, you know, I think it's great that those tools and supports are there, and it's just about, you know, everyone kind of figuring out how to leverage them. I think, going forward, right?
Leah 33:08
For sure, for sure, how to use them, for sure. Um, we've talked a lot about the challenges of this work. What do you love about this work?
David 33:14
I love now at the stage we're at where I hear an update like from a client saying, you know, I just worked with, you know, Amy or Megan or Blaine or whoever, for that matter, Anderson, and they give this, you know, don't let them know, but they did an exceptional job on this, right? I love to get these, you know, kind of most backdoor compliments to the to the organization, and getting direct feedback from that or even just, you know, in the halls or on a Zoom call, hearing about something that the team did, and it could have been weeks ago, and I'm just like, oh my god, they went above and beyond to do this, and nobody kind of raised a flag, like, hey, you know, we we worked longer, we did something. I'm just proud of how much everyone's supporting each other, I think that's, yeah, that's that really lifts me up, right? I'm just amazed. And I'm just amazed at how creative all of our employees and team are. Like, I'm like, I would have never thought of that. That's amazing.
Leah 34:15
It's nice to be surprised like that.
David 34:17
Yeah, those are the pleasant surprises, for sure.
Leah 34:20
That's so exciting. At Thin Air Labs, we often talk about creating meaningful impact, and for us, we even have it built into our investment thesis. It's really important to us to create meaningful human impact. When you think of impact, I know you have, how do you think about it for VEERUM?
David 34:34
So, in two channels. So one, you know, the solution that we've created our technology, is it having a meaningful impact outside of just dollars and cents? And it does because we have one client in town here. They saved over; I think it was 23,000 hours of field exposure, meaning people on site in dangerous conditions, and meaningful to me, is, you know, if someone gets to go home to their family where that might not have been the option before, that's incredible, or if we potentially been involved in, you know, saving lives and reducing that risk in these very, you know, challenging environments around the world, right, like we're talking all over the world, that's very meaningful, and our team gravitates that, and they can see that impact that we're that we're having out there working safely. And then, you know, with our community too, it's just we're making an impact with the individual lives of our employees, right? And they're working on some of this really cutting edge technology, which will advance their career opportunities and their families, and then, you know, as we support, we're trying to do more, you know, volunteering, team, building that type of stuff in the community. So those are impactful. And I think those are the things that you'll end up remembering when it's all said and done, right?
Leah 35:49
Yeah, that's incredible. It's amazing when you can see that direct line, you know, the work that you're doing; you can see it directly going to that person, to your point, who's coming home tonight, who maybe not. Who maybe wasn't able to or wouldn't have that's incredible. I see you sit up and raise those shoulders, good for you. All right, well, as we start to close this conversation, I ask everybody the same two questions, you're the CEO, you're writing the story for VEERUM. How do you hope the story goes?
David 36:20
Well, I'm cautiously confident, and I really hope the story goes that we've created a lasting technology that will be, you know, future generations, right? And that could be, that could be done with, you know, other strategic groups that are going to take it forward to the next level. There's lots of opportunity there. So that's where it needs to go, right? And we'll get it there.
Leah 36:45
You will, for sure. And as the CEO, you're writing your own story, how do you see your story going?
David 36:52
One I'd like certainly to be remembered as, Wow, they pulled off, you know, this miracle, the odds of starting, you know, a software company, you know, getting it to where it was, turning it around. You know, it's less than half a percent. It's really the odds when you look at it, right? But I'd like to be remembered as somebody that was fair, that did always the right thing, that, you know, rolled up his sleeves to help when it was needed, and to be held in and get accord that way. That's how I'd rather be remembered.
Leah 37:26
David, thank you for this conversation.
Leah 37:27
Well, thank you very much, Leah. I’m happy to be here. And a great platform, too. I got the face for radio, so this worked out really well.
Leah 37:44
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Leah 38:29
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In this episode, Leah sits down with Dr. William Cherniak, the visionary Founder of Rocket Doctor, a digital healthcare platform that's changing the way patients access healthcare. Dr. Cherniak shares how his work inspired his ideas, from his time working in global health in sub-Saharan Africa to his role as an ER physician. From these experiences, his primary goal became finding a way to use technology to solve healthcare access issues.
Leah and Dr. Cherniak explore the challenges and triumphs of building Rocket Doctor, including navigating government regulations and the evolving landscape of virtual care. Dr. Cherniak emphasizes the importance of healthcare equity and how Rocket Doctor provides critical care to underserved populations. From managing a startup to maintaining a work-life balance, this episode is packed with insights on creating impactful healthcare solutions.
About Dr. William Cherniak
William Cherniak BSc MD MPH CCFP(EM)/DABFM is an Emergency Physician with training in family medicine and global public health. He is a Co-Founder and Board Chair of Bridge to Health Medical and Dental Canada & USA and the Founder and CEO of Rocket Doctor Inc, a Medicaid-focused Shopify for clinicians that integrates a unique support system, advanced AI-fueled software and wireless medical devices to enhance care. Bill has had research published in the New England Journal of Medicine, the Lancet, Academic Medicine, PLOS ONE and given numerous speeches in Europe and North America on digital health as well as global public health and development.
Bill completed his medical school at the University of Calgary and residency at the University of Toronto. He completed a cancer fellowship at the U.S. Federal Government's Center for Global Health in the National Cancer Institute/National Institutes of Health as well as a Master in Public Health at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, with a concentration in health in crisis and humanitarian assistance, while a Sommer Scholar with a full-scholarship. He is an Adjunct Professor with Northwestern University, Associate Faculty at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and an Assistant Professor at the University of Toronto’s Department of Family and Community Medicine, Division of Emergency Medicine.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Super PumpedThe Connected Care for Canadians Act--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Dr. William Cherniak:
Website: Rocket DoctorWebsite: Bridge to HealthLinkedin: Rocket DoctorLinkedin: Dr. William Cherniak--
Transcript
Dr. Cherniak 00:02
I don't think you can work at Rocket Doctor if you're just coming in for a paycheck, it's not gonna work. But you have to really, like, be interested in the problem, I think, and then, like, what we're trying to do, essentially, and I think most of our team is like, the folks on our team have been with us for anywhere from two to four years now.
Leah 00:20
Hi, thanks for being here, and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems and they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So, why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:06
Joining me today is Dr. William Cherniak, founder and CEO of Rocket Doctor, a digital health platform that allows physicians to provide comprehensive care to patients virtually. Hey, Bill, thanks for doing this.
Dr. Cherniak 01:21
Hey, no problem. Thanks for having me.
Leah 01:22
Where did we find you today?
Dr. Cherniak 01:25
Today, I am in Toronto.
Leah 01:26
Terrific. Well, listen, thanks for fitting this in. I know you're a very, very busy guy, and you're travelling all over the world, doing all the things, but that's why we wanted to talk to you.
Dr. Cherniak 01:36
Yeah, no problem. Glad to join. It's funny, I just got back from LA like two nights ago, actually, as well.
Leah 01:42
See, there you go. We knew it. Yep, I know you're all over the place all the time. Let's go right back to the beginning, as we do with all of these conversations. How did you first become interested in becoming an entrepreneur?
Dr. Cherniak 01:54
So, actually, it started about 12 years ago in the nonprofit space. In medical school, I went overseas to do an international global health rotation. And that kind of sparked a bunch of different sequence of events that led to me starting a nonprofit in 2012 called Bridge to Health Medical and Dental. And so it was interesting at that point, working mostly in sub-Saharan East Africa, and building this organization to support local partners, really as a volunteer, and again, a nonprofit charitable sector. And then over time, started to get to work on advanced medical devices and more technology-enabled services and these really rural remote communities on the kind of mountainside in Uganda. And then a project we set up with cloud-based teleradiology around pediatric pneumonia and point-of-care ultrasound led to a cover story on the science section in the New York Times. And that really kind of pushed me. Yeah, it was really sort of a surprise, but also interesting. And that kind of pushed me into the tech sector. And then, yeah, as an ER doc working across Canada and also in the United States, just seeing a bunch of patients coming to the hospital that didn't need to be there without patient primary care issues. So, that kind of tech push from the nonprofit side, combined with the frustrations of working in the ER domestically, kind of led to this idea in the fall of 2019 of Rocket Doctor, and then we were just kind of in the right place when the pandemic hit in the spring of 2020.
Leah 03:19
No kidding, that's amazing. Okay, so tell me a little bit more about Rocket Doctor and what it actually is.
Dr. Cherniak 03:19
Yeah, I mean, you gave us a nice little shout-out, but the way I describe it is really a Shopify for physicians, so helping doctors to build and scale our own independent, largely virtual, but some hybridized in-person, virtual practices. And then we take all of those independent doctors and we put them onto a marketplace that we can direct at to patients. So, as a patient, you just see a single brand identity of Rocket Doctor, and you submit a request for a booking for an appointment, but we sit in the middle building software and systems, and we can then objectively match the right patient with the right independent physician to have the best outcomes in our cloud-based ecosystem.
Leah 04:01
Wow. And so what was the real motivation there? I mean, you talked a little bit about it, what you were seeing with the NGO, but what really drove you to go, I need to fix this, like this has got to get sorted out.
Dr. Cherniak 04:13
So, there's urban and rural healthcare in Canada, and then there's in the United States, you know, the same sort of thing, but also differences based on the kind of insurance that you have. So, on the Canadian side, working in an urban ER, it was very common that people would come to the emergency department with issues that could have been perhaps managed by their family doctor in an outpatient primary care setting, but you know, through no faults of their own, like people often don't know what's an emergency and what isn't and if the family doc isn't available, then you end up in the ER again, maybe through no fault of the family doc. Also, like, it's just an evening or a weekend or whatever. And so that was sort of frustrating thinking, you know, be great if we could get that out to people, to not have to come to the ER. And then in rural areas, and I work in rural emergency departments in both Alberta and Ontario, often see patients who just don't have a family doctor. Where there is no health care who might, you know, in some cases, have driven two hours to get to the hospital because it's the closest health care facility. So, the idea there kind of also building on the nonprofit stuff overseas was, you know, you can use this digital ecosystem to take docs that are in big, urban academic centers and beam them instantly out to patients in rural, remote communities.
Leah 05:21
Amazing. So, how does that work in terms of, like, who pays for it and like, that kind of stuff,
Dr. Cherniak 05:26
Yeah. I mean Canada, as much as possible, we try to base the system on your public health insurance. So for example, in BC and Alberta, it's fully funded under you know, MSP and Alberta Health Specialists in Ontario are fully funded in that way as well, with OHIP some nuances in terms of stuff we've had to navigate in the province the last couple of years, with some changes to virtual care reimbursement in Ontario. But then in the United States, we focus actually on Medicaid. So, that's the health insurance for folks at/or below the poverty line, pregnant women and children and that. You know, we take Medicaid in our group in the United States.
Leah 06:03
Amazing. So how does it work from a patient perspective, are they just like, Okay, I'm gonna log on to Rocket Doctor and just go, I need help, and just put a request in?
Dr. Cherniak 06:10
Basically, yeah.
Leah 06:12
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Dr. Cherniak 06:14
Yeah. It's funny people in Alberta when I talk to them, particularly because it's, you know, fully covered with your Alberta Health sometimes people give me a look and I'm like, you think it's too good to think it's too good to be true, don't you? And they go, yeah, no, it actually really works well. And so you just log in, you submit some details, you plug in your Alberta Health number, and you get matched with a physician who's in the province and licensed and certified.
Leah 06:32
That's incredible. And how quickly does this happen?
Dr. Cherniak 06:36
Yeah, we have a care coordination team, so they're available usually within between 15 and 30 minutes or so, depending on how busy it is, and the appointment with the physician is almost always the same day, usually within a couple of hours, and then, you know, the next day, if it's a bit longer. But that's kind of not as common. It might be like, if you book at midnight or something, you could book for the next morning.
Leah 06:57
That's incredible. That's amazing. What's the response been?
Dr. Cherniak 07:02
Yeah, I mean, it's been good. We've grown a lot over the last couple of years. And so, like, I think probably, like, a 5x in Alberta in the last year, for example, and then across Canada as a whole, we've probably doubled the patient volume since last summer.
Leah 07:16
Incredible, incredible. What does that tell you about what you've created?
Dr. Cherniak 07:20
I guess the people like it. It's funny, though, because when you're running a system, whether it's a hospital or a startup or whatever, you always hear when things go wrong, but you don't often hear when things go well, because you just don't. Anyways, it's funny.
Leah 07:35
It is funny. And actually, that's a theme that comes up a lot on this podcast, that you know, these founders sort of forget or just miss the wins, you know, and they aren't celebrating the wins.
Dr. Cherniak 07:44
Yeah. I mean, you can see how it happens. You just sort of put your head down and working on problem after problem.
Leah 07:49
Absolutely. Okay, so, let's take a moment to reflect, though. So, you're an ER doc, you're also CEO and founder of a startup, and you're a co-founder of an NGO, and that is a lot, Bill.
Dr. Cherniak 08:04
Yeah, it's a little busy. I guess.
Leah 08:09
I like how you're like, it's a little bit busy. No, that's kind of nuts. How do you do that?
Dr. Cherniak 08:04
It's just a balance of time, I guess. I used to joke, because I started my residency in general surgery, and so at the time, that was like 110 hours a week. And so, you know, you go to like a 40-50 hour a week thing, and you got a lot of time to spare in the middle. But I don't know. I think there's ways to balance your time, anyways.
Leah 08:32
Yeah, but that's a pretty tricky thing to do, you know, to balance your time. And then also, you travel so much. So, how do you even sort of stay sane and well, as a founder?
Dr. Cherniak 08:44
I have always been really into sort of the outdoors and athletics, so that's been my thing. So, like, for example, last night I had a very busy day, and then a couple of evening receptions, and I got home at like, nine o'clock and I ended up going for a run on the waterfront. And it's just like, nice to clear your head. And so, yeah, I find running or, you know, I actually like hiking or camping, canoeing, that kind of stuff. So, try to find ways to get off the computer whenever possible, I guess.
Leah 09:12
For sure, for sure. Now, I did do a little poking around on your background, Bill. And you're also a bit extreme, though, when it comes to some of these activities that you like to do to supposedly clear your head and relax. Like, you know, we're talking marathons, and you're doing these with broken shoulders and things like that. Do you think that's a little bit about just sort of your personality and how you roll?
Dr. Cherniak 09:34
Yeah, probably it's the ER, you know, Doc, sort of prototypical stereotype. I think I fit into that. I had done a triathlon in undergrad, and then in med school, me and two of my classmates did an Ironman in Montreal and another one in Mexico. So, that was fun to kind of get into that. Anyways.
Leah 09:56
I'm like, oh yes, there's no big deal. You always kind of did that. It's a big deal. That's nuts. Wow. Good for you. So, do you have time for even more of a personal life? Like, do you have a family? Like, what does that look like for you?
Dr. Cherniak 10:09
Yeah, I mean, you can always make time for the things I think that are important. No kids for me at this point yet, maybe someday in the future, but I have two nephews anyway, which is nice.
Leah 10:19
Oh, that's nice. That's great. That's wonderful. All right, I talked to every founder on this podcast about a pivotal moment in their startup journey. You and I talked about this a little bit. I have a feeling it has to do with a decision by the Ontario government. But tell me what happened.
Dr. Cherniak 10:35
Yeah. I mean, essentially in December of 2022 there were some big changes in the context of virtual care in the province. And we had really built Rocket Doctor initially. You know, the whole goal was to build for the public sector so that people could use their public health insurance to access care. And Canada, you know, was always like, 20 years behind the United States when it came to digital health. And the Canadian Medical Association produced a report before the pandemic saying the same thing, like, less than 1% of all health care was done virtually. Then when the pandemic hit, physicians were literally forced into using virtual care, in some cases, up to seven zero, 70% of all care was done virtually. And then it kind of, you know, rapid and provinces released temporary pandemic billing codes. And then it sort of started to swing in the opposite direction as people got frustrated and they said, Okay, time to go back to, you know, whatever, in person. But it's like, well, no, this is part of health care now. But unfortunately, in Ontario, there was a kind of misunderstanding about what virtual care meant. And the public prevailing wisdom was, it was the same thing as a walk-in clinic or urgent care, not that it was a, you know, tech-enabled service that could kind of improve access to care for people in the province. So, that was the, you know, prevailing media narrative, which was, it's a virtual walk-in clinic. It's not good for patients, as opposed to, it's a resource to help people without family doctors or in rural, remote communities access healthcare. So, funding was dramatically cut to virtual care if a patient didn't have a family doctor, or was in a rural community where they couldn't be seen in person first, such that physicians were no longer able to do the work because this wasn't feasible anymore. So, that was a really problematic moment, and we went from basically 800 patients a day to sort of zero overnight. So, we had to figure out a way to, you know, rebuild the system, which we've now done, but we had to create, kind of like a hybridized model in Ontario, and then we had to expand out, as we said, that, you know, it's been for the best. We expanded into specialty, you know, helped a bunch of psychiatrists that are now on the platform seeing patients through OHIP built with our team, a whole addictions medicine program with a really cool integrated model, with care coordination and specialists and primary care and mental health, and expanded to Western Canada and built the whole US side of things over the last sort of year and a half. So, it's been an interesting last little bit.
Leah 13:02
No kidding. So, I mean, when you go from, you know, all these patients to zero overnight, how do you process that? Like, emotionally, like, in your head?
Dr. Cherniak 13:16
I was watching the show Super Pumped at the time, and oddly, nobody had ever heard of this show, but it's–
Leah 13:21
No, what is it?
Dr. Cherniak 13:23
It's got a really big cast, like Joseph Gordon Levitt is in it, and it plays Travis Kalanick. It's about Uber, about the start of Uber. So, I was watching the episode where the taxi cab industry tried to shut down Uber in San Francisco. They do this whole, you know, take it to City Hall model, and we're gonna, you know, fight the power kind of thing. So, if you did something similar, where we emailed 150,000 people in Ontario to sort of say, this is what's happening. You know, you should be upset about this, and you should write your local MP in the province and the Ministry of Health. And we got 35,000 people to sign a petition, and we got some press, and we kind of took it out to get folks aware of what was going on. But yeah, it's difficult to sort of change direction when the government is moving in a direction, but I think people these days are starting to sort of realize more and more, oh, yeah, probably we want the ability for patients with no family doctors to get care, I mean, in rural communities, to get access to services. So, hopefully, we'll see kind of the wind shift back over time.
Leah 14:20
Yeah, no kidding, but let's just go back to that moment though. Like you are, your whole business model basically evaporates overnight. And how do you feel about that? Like, are you losing your mind? Are you screaming and hollering? Are you punching the wall? Like, what's going on?
Dr. Cherniak 14:36
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's, it depends on the time of day, or the day that we discuss cycles of grief, as you say, but yes, like going through the different kind of process of it all. I think the key thing was on December 1st because it wasn't clear it was actually going to happen, even like in the months leading up to the changes. It seemed as though it may be reversed right up until the day that it wasn't. And then that was when it was like, okay, yep, it happened. That's unfortunate. So, yeah, that sucked. But we had sort of started to prepare, you know, the writing was on the wall. It probably was going to go through. So, we started to prepare a month earlier with this hybridized, you know, public-private model, which we just had to do to keep the system going in the province. And so we had that ready on December 1st, and ended up launching it, which was tough, and then, but we just, you know, again, it was kind of heads down, just work on the solution, essentially.
Leah 15:30
Right. Did it ever cross your mind to go, Okay, well, forget it? Then, you know, it's just going to be too much.
Dr. Cherniak 15:35
Yeah. I mean, I think you'd be crazy not to think those thoughts at certain points. I think it's impossible. Sorry, not crazy, but I think it's impossible to not have those thoughts and then you just sort of recognize, like, what for me, it's always, Are we wrong? Is there no solution? And my sense is there's usually always kind of like a path somewhere you just have to, like, work really hard, in some cases, to get there.
Leah 15:55
No kidding, and working really hard is, like, different for you, I think, than, like, other folks, maybe not for a lot of the entrepreneurs, honestly, that we talk to, but there is something about that entrepreneurial spirit and that entrepreneurial personality where it's just like, heads down tackle the next problem, right? Regardless of how I feel about this, I'm just gonna check that over here and just get to work. Does that resonate with you?
Dr. Cherniak 16:20
Yeah, I think actually, there are some overlaps or parallels to the Iron Man, just sort of like one foot in front of the other. You just kind of keep going and yeah, like, quote, unquote, hard work. Yeah. That means something may be different to different people. But for me, it's kind of like, you just don't stop working until it's done basically.
Leah 16:38
Right, right.
Leah 16:42
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Leah 17:06
How do you stay motivated? Like, what keeps you going when the days do get really hard?
Dr. Cherniak 17:11
We talked about it right at the beginning. It's the resurfacing a little bit because you're in the weeds and the problem, but then more seeing the positive outcomes of the system. So, like seeing the interest from physicians that want to work with us, seeing the positive reviews from patients, talking to people at an event where, literally, this has happened half a dozen actually, at very low points. In fact, I'd be out somewhere in Toronto, or out in, you know, Alberta or something, and somebody would go, Rocket Doctor, I use that. And I'm always, oh, did you have a good experience, Is my next question, because I'm so used to people, you know, the negative feedback and oh yeah, it was. And almost everyone says, yeah, it was great, worked well. And so that's always kind of nice to get that.
Leah 17:50
Absolutely. That's encouraging, those little wins, right? Yes, just like we were talking about incredible, that's amazing. So, tell me a little bit more about this feeling that you have to solve these really big problems, like, we can even talk about, you know, the NGO to Bridge to Health, like, Why do you think you're the person to solve these problems?
Dr. Cherniak 18:11
Yeah, well, it's, I've been asked that question a few times, but in a more negative context of, like, Who do you think you are doing? Like, I don't know. I was in residency, when I started Bridge to Health, it was like, I'm just a person that went person that went to Uganda and thought, there's a problem, nobody else is doing it, so may as well try and do something if no one else is. And then I think over time though, I went back to school and did a master's of public health. And so the program I went to had us repeat the line, saving lives millions at a time, over and over and over. This was at Hopkins, and so it was just like a mantra that you and then they sort of think that program was helpful to conceptualize things at, like a population level. So, we take that approach with Rocket Doctor a lot as well, which is, you think about like a whole provincial healthcare system or national strategies, and how it's kind of different between areas and what we can learn from different places and impacts, you know, the whole population, not just like the group of people that are there.
Leah 19:05
Absolutely, you've talked about this before too. The idea of fighting that inequality that exists. How is that important to you?
Dr. Cherniak 19:14
Like, at a high level, it's obviously just inequitable for people not to be able to have the same level of care because of you know, postal code or zip code or whatever, but tangibly working as a doctor in those places, like seeing it firsthand, for example, when I worked in northern Ontario at a hospital and a young girl who lived on a gold mine and had just this horrific skin infection on both arms, and I couldn't even figure out what it was, at first, I realized, no, It's just like a really bad case of a very common kind of skin infection that had had no treatment for 10 days because they lived two hours from care, and so they had to drive two hours into the hospital, and parents were working all the time, and so we had to bring them back to the hospital every day for four days and make sure it was getting better as we got them on antibiotics and it did improve. But it's like those are the kinds of stories of, you know, had that person had a quick telehealth visit in their community at the beginning, it would have been like a $37 visit to the system. It would have been an instant, you know, response to the patient, and it would have prevented weeks of complexity and driving and cost and expense and ER visits. And so it just, yeah. It doesn't make sense.
Leah 20:21
Yeah, it doesn't make sense. And I love that you're just like, well, nobody else is doing it. So, you know, I know a couple of things, I might as well just get on this.
Dr. Cherniak 20:28
Yeah, basically.
Leah 20:32
That's amazing. That's amazing. You have incredible stories from Bridge to Health and the work that you're doing in Uganda and elsewhere. Can you tell me a little bit more about that, and what that has meant for you as a founder of an NGO and what informs the work that you're doing with with Rocket Doctor?
Dr. Cherniak 20:48
Yeah, you know, our model with Bridge to Health is on empowering local health workers and governments to kind of build their own systems and see how we can plug in to support that. So, you know, like something funny the other day, one of the clinics, so, in Uganda, largely the rural healthcare system is built up with clinical officers, which are like nurse practitioners, physician assistant equivalents. So, we work mostly in these rural communities with the clinical officers. And we set up education training programs. And we do these, you know, intense learning programs. You know, in medical like, education, at least, still do it these days. But you draw these, like, paper schematics of, like, I think, in algorithms, like, how do you, you know, manage whatever? And with, we have a thing called ACLS with how does the heart work? And I used to teach it at Sunnybrook, and so I was teaching it at the time in Uganda, like, seven years ago, and one of the clinical officers who's now finishing medical school in Uganda, sent me, like, some pictures yesterday with these things that I drew, like, seven years ago. So, I thought that was kind of neat.
Leah 21:49
No way, that's incredible.
Dr. Cherniak 21:48
So, he kept them in his notebook, you know, years later, which was kind of neat. Anyways,
Leah 21:55
How lovely. How does that make you feel when you hear those stories?
Dr. Cherniak 21:57
Yeah, no, it's great. Yeah, definitely.
Leah 21:59
That’s wonderful. Yeah, that's amazing. So, we've talked a little bit about the health work that you're doing, but you're also building a startup, and that presents its own challenges. You know, Rocket Doctor is a startup, and, you know, with that comes, you know, building out those pitch decks and, you know, fundraising. So, what has that been like for you?
Dr. Cherniak 22:20
That’s probably my least favourite part of the whole thing. But, you know, necessary to do it. I just find people sometimes will say, oh fundraising so easy. You just go out and you tell them your story and you get money. And I don't know that. I don't know if people listening to this that's been their experience, but everyone I've ever talked to that has not been their experience. It's like a very arduous, grinding process. You get a lot of no's, sometimes, in many cases, just because they don't understand what the business is and don't want to take the time to figure it out. So, it's sort of, you know, and you have to try to keep that that actually is usually a sign that you're doing a bad job as a founder, because you're not communicating what you do. So, you know, trying to reframe that to your instead of, like saying, Oh, well, they're the problem. It's actually, well, we're probably the problem because their decks are not good, the messaging is not good enough, and you got to figure out, like, how do you creatively market what you're doing, to explain it to people really succinctly. So, that is a real challenge, actually, to do, I think.
Leah 23:14
Absolutely, I think for most founders, it's a real challenge. Yeah, to your point, I don't think it's ever that easy, certainly not from the founders that I've talked to, and I've talked to a few, and I've talked to a few now. And yeah, it's, it's tricky. And to your point, it is a grind. How does that work for you when you're grinding it out, let's say fundraising, when you're still jetting off to the ER, I'm sure as well. How does that work?
Dr. Cherniak 23:36
Again, It's all balanced, I suppose, carve out, you know, time and make sure that the work gets done, I guess. And, yeah, it's certainly a different experience. Also, like, you know, sending emails about fundraising versus seeing patients in the emergency department. It's a different skill set. I was talking to someone the other day. It's almost nice to go work in ER shift, because I just say, I'm like a, you know, I'm like a line cook. I just go in and I chop the onions. I can see the patients. I go in. I know what I'm doing. It's a very different kind of set of skills in both places.
Leah 24:04
Absolutely, where did you learn the skills that you need as you're building your startup?
Dr. Cherniak 24:11
I mean, for Bridge to Health always gave a lot. Well, not always, but you know, start had to learn how to give presentations to get donor funds, to build the org. So, I’ve done hundreds of pitches for Bridge to Health to get donations over the years. So, that was sort of, I guess, a learning process over that period of time, much lower intensity and much lower scale, but still doing it, at least for sort of experience. I didn't have any sort of, like formal education or anything like that. But, actually I started a course when I was in LA teaching at USC on global health entrepreneurship, and I just actually taught, I teach it a five-day accelerated summer course at Hopkins once a year. So, we just did that course last week.
Leah 24:52
Wow. How did that go over?
Dr. Cherniak 24:54
Good, good. But It's a development lab, so students create a nonprofit initiative. And rather than, you know, do essays or assignments or tests, they create the actual thing, and they do pitches for the class. So, we kind of do like a presentation on like three times throughout the week until it culminates in a final pitch for 10 minutes.
Leah 25:12
Amazing. So, why did you want to do that? What did you do, why did you see the value in creating that program?
Dr. Cherniak 25:21
Yeah, I guess similarly, it was just I didn't find anything that existed that was like it previously, or that I thought was good so, and it was an opportunity to do it.
Leah 25:30
I love this about you. Well, again, nobody else is doing this, so I might as well just get after it. That's amazing, tremendous. So, at Thin Air Llabs, we talk often about creating global human impact, and it's part of our investment thesis. And I know creating impact is very important to you, I would like to talk to you about that. Let's talk about it for both, If you don't mind. When you think of creating impact, what do you think of when it comes to Bridge to Health, first?
Dr. Cherniak 25:55
Yeah, for Bridge to Health, it's really what are the kind of measurable, sustainable outcomes on the ground when we're not there? We send teams of interdisciplinary teams of doctors, dentists, nurses, and pharmacists, to do these kinds of high-intensity two-week clinical service provision programs in these rural, remote communities, but we embed our teams within the local Ministry of Health, and then have a variety of educational institutes and schools that are partnered with us, and we do education training. And the idea is to see that after, you know, we've built a foundation that the local healthcare workers can kind of continue to build on throughout the whole year. So, that's sort of the idea there, I guess.
Leah 26:39
Amazing. How often do you actually get down there?
Dr. Cherniak 26:41
Foreign folks go in only once a year. But we have these partners that are on the ground, that are the doctors and clinical officers running the healthcare system, so we're in touch with them throughout the year. And then, you know, we use those outreaches to kind of find key problems in the community and then build more infrastructure. So, like the ultrasound work that we had in The Times was because, you know, they didn't have X-ray facilities in these rural, mountainous villages, and they couldn't diagnose pneumonia in kids. This was bubbled up as a core problem for the local clinical officers. So, we just said, in 2017, okay, we're gonna figure out how to do ultrasound for pediatric pneumonia and then set up this, you know, teleradiology thing so the docs could upload images from this mountainside and then get a radiologist or an ER doc to give them feedback remotely so they could have ongoing service throughout the year, basically, even when we weren't there on the field.
Leah 27:29
Right, right from a mountainside.
Dr. Cherniak 27:33
Yeah, well, if there was internet otherwise, you know, the device that we were using, like, uploads to the iPhone, and then they can upload the images to the cloud once they get back to Wi-Fi after their clinic.
Leah 27:43
That is unbelievable. I can see why The Times was all over that. That's amazing. So, that work continues. How do you think about the long-term for Bridge to Health?
Dr. Cherniak 27:52
We took that project in Uganda, we left a ton of ultrasound devices and trained a bunch of people, and we still have teams that go back every year and do upgrades and new Pro. Now the Director of ultrasound for Eisenhower Hospital in Palm Desert is one of our medical leads from, we have a US branch of the nonprofit, and a Canadian, so he's on the US side, but he's, you know, still working with them every day, really, but then we ended up winning a grant from Grand Challenge is Canada to bring the program into Yemen. So, we trained a bunch of doctors in Yemen on how to use ultrasound to diagnose obstetric complications and trauma and also PEDS pneumonia. And then we won another grant to do it in Latin America and Peru on the Amazon so, brought it to different parts of the world, basically.
Leah 28:37
That's incredible. And I guess you just want to keep growing that.
Dr. Cherniak 28:41
Yeah, although now obviously it's busy with Rocket Doctor, so these days I'm the board chair, but we have a team that does day-to-day work, great.
Leah 28:47
That's amazing. All right, well, then let's talk about Rocket Doctor. When you think about creating impact, how do you think about that when it comes to Rocket Doctor?
Dr. Cherniak 29:01
We're already having a big impact, like we've seen over 350,000 patients on the platform, over 300 docs, and each day there's five to 600 people that go through the system, basically. So, you know, it's right now, we're bigger than any emergency department in the country, essentially, in terms of the volume of visits that comes through. And it's not just walk-in clinic, it's primary care, psychiatry, addictions, neurology, it's like everything you can think of happening on the system. So, already, it's a huge, you know, system that's running at scale, though, you know, it can look like a whole public health kind of infrastructure, but it, you know, regionally specific, plugged into, like provincial health authorities, or into managed care plans and Medicaid in the US market to really have the millions of visits as assposed to now.
Leah 29:45
Yeah, wow, the millions of visits. How do you feel when you say that? I can see a big smile crop up on your face.
Dr. Cherniak 29:52
Well, I don't really think about it until you ask the question. It just–
Leah 29:56
Is that right? Hey, you just cruise it along and you're not even really thinking about millions of people. Impacting the lives of millions– Okay, I'm gonna say it again for you, impacting the lives of millions of people. It's pretty amazing.
Dr. Cherniak 30:08
Yeah, I don't know. I just don't really think about it honestly, in the moment. Yeah.
Leah 30:14
Yeah. It's just heads down for you, yeah. What's it like when it comes to motivating a team for Rocket Doctor? I mean, you know emergency physicians, I know it's teamwork when you're in there, for sure, but I mean, building a startup is a whole other thing. You're, you know, you're managing a company now. What does that look like for you?
Dr. Cherniak 30:30
You know, I'm fortunate. I get to work with one of my brothers at the startup, as well.
Leah 30:35
That's cool, yeah. Or is it because, you know, sometimes siblings?
Dr. Cherniak 30:38
No, we have our moments, but we've come to a balance over the last few years. And so, yeah, he's got, it's a nice compliment, because, you know, he's got a business finance law background, and so helps to sort of manage that side around ops, finance, legal, collaborate, obviously, on those areas. And then I can really, you know, pick up and manage the clinical, medical. I have an interest in sort of engineering and AI and that kind of stuff as well. But I think what we try to do at Rocket Doctor is sort of what we've always done at Bridge to Health, which is like, be very mission-driven. So, not, I don't think you can work at Rocket Doctor if you're just coming in for a paycheck, it's not gonna work, but you have to really, like, be interested in the problem, I think, and then, like, what we're trying to do, essentially, and I think, I think most of our team is, like, the folks on our team have been with us for anywhere from two to four years now.
Leah 31:31
How big is your team now?
Dr. Cherniak 31:34
Not that many. Like, we have nine people who are full-time at the moment, but then we have a team of almost 30 doctors who are part of our physician advisory group, so they're across Canada and the US.
Leah 31:43
Amazing, incredible. How's the fundraising going for the startup?
Dr. Cherniak 31:47
Yeah, I mean, it's, as we said, it's always grind. We're, I don't know who this podcast goes out to, but we're in a fundraising round at the moment. Anyways, so, if anybody's interested?
Leah 31:57
There you go. Right. Everybody listening? Give them a call.
Dr. Cherniak 32:02
We got the first third and we got the last third committed. We got to get the middle third out, and then we'll be done, which will be nice.
Leah 32:09
That would be nice. Amazing, when you think of fundraising and building Rocket Doctor down the road, you're the founder, you're writing the story for Rocket Doctor. How do you hope it goes?
Dr. Cherniak 32:22
I hope it goes well. I guess. We just basically need to keep going and executing the plan we've been doing for the last couple of years, essentially. So, you know, we set out in December 2022. We, being my brother and I, really, we set out a plan for the next, you know, couple years of things that we wanted to do in terms of technology and Canada and the US, and we're really, like, three-quarters of the way there to sort of what we had set out like, pretty well on track. So, just basically getting, you know, right now, like we operate like, I think most digital health companies at a bit of a loss every month as we've been growing the system and building products and engineering. So, getting to a point where the business is totally self-sufficient, profitable, which is around the corner, actually quite close, and then from an integrated with also public health infrastructure, because right now, we're really direct to consumers, so patients and doctors can use us, and it's funded by your provincial health insurance, but it's not integrated as well into the system as we should be or could be. So, that's kind of like the next phase. I think that would be really great.
Leah 33:23
What would that look like? That integration? How would that work?
Dr. Cherniak 33:26
Interoperability, you know, so that your records are all as a patient and four physicians are available to anyone anywhere. So like, if you're a patient, any doctor you're seeing has all of your records. But it's not just in this multi-100-page PDF thing. It's actually easy, succinct, you know, visible, and sort of follows you as you go to different places. Like, I think that's really the future, and we saw that sort of happen with or starting to move, anyways, with this Connecting Canadians Act that came out not so long ago. But hopefully, we'll start to move in that direction.
Leah 34:01
Tell me a little bit about that, the Connecting Canadians Act.
Dr. Cherniak 34:01
Yeah, it was this idea of interoperability, basically. And so in the in the US, they have the, you know, 21st Century Cures Act, which makes it law, federal law that EHRs have to share patient data if the patient wants it to. But we don't have that in Canada, so EHRs can't be compelled to share your data with another EHR, basically. You gotta enter in a special agreement with them and build the whole thing. And so that is not good for patient care side of things.
Leah 34:27
Right. So, you'd like to see that switched up, changed out, modernized.
Dr. Cherniak 34:32
Yeah, correct.
Leah 34:33
Right. Amazing, incredible. Okay, and then as a founder, so you're the founder, you've got your NGO and you've got Rocket Doctor. You're writing your own story. How do you see your story going as a founder?
Dr. Cherniak 34:50
Yeah, I mean, obviously continuing to get Rocket Doctor to that place we just discussed, where it is sort of self-sufficient and integrated, and in a really stable and growing place, which is, you know, self-sufficient like we've done with sort of Bridge to Health over the years as well. And then, I don't know, I'm not sure.
Leah 35:09
I expect something else might come along that piques your interest.
Dr. Cherniak 35:12
Yeah, I mean things I find for myself, it's always sort of organic, like something comes up. It seems like, as we talked about earlier, there's, uh, something that happens that hasn't, you know, could you use a little work, I guess. And then I sort of get interested in that. But we've been doing this for four years, and I suspect we'll be doing it for another four years with Rocket Doctor.
Leah 35:33
Yeah, and then I have to ask, as an ER physician, is that something you want to continue to do as well?
Dr. Cherniak 35:38
Yeah, I like going into the ER, I think a lot of my peers across the world, but, you know, I'm most familiar with Canada and the United States are feeling pretty burnt out from full-time emergency medicine work. So, it's much more sustainable doing, you know, like I do a few shifts every few weeks. That's much more sustainable from sort of a quality-of-life perspective. And so, yeah, I do enjoy doing it, at least for now, anyways.
Leah 36:06
Bill, this has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for this and for the work that you're doing.
Dr. Cherniak 36:10
Yeah, thanks, and thanks for the questions, and for taking the time.
Leah 36:14
You bet.
Leah 36:24
As the lead investor in Thin Air Labs - Fund One, Sandstone Asset Management believes in building the commons through innovative founders who are creating meaningful, positive impact, both locally and globally. Sandstone is doing just that by backing the next generation of emerging entrepreneurs. Picture this, a founder start-up goes from idea to international impact supported by strategic investors who believed in their vision. That's the power of Sandstone's approach. Sandstone doesn't just manage wealth, they cultivate it, supporting founders at all stages. Visit www.sandstoneam.com to learn how sandstone builds legacies that last.
Leah 37:06
The Opportunity Calgary Investment Fund finds, fuels, and fosters opportunities in sectors like aerospace, agribusiness and tech, creating a resilient and diverse economy, attracting world class talent, and solidifying Calgary as a launch pad for innovators. Discover more at www.opportunitycalgary.com
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Leah Sarich interviews Jenn Hunter, Co-Founder of PayShepherd, a contractor management platform for heavy industry. They discuss Jenn's journey into entrepreneurship, the challenges of digitizing workflows in heavy industry, and how PayShepherd has transformed contractor-client interactions. They also touch on the experiences of working in a male-dominated field and the changing landscape for women in heavy industry.
Jenn shares her journey of balancing entrepreneurship and motherhood while prioritizing personal wellness. She discusses transformative changes she implemented, including better nutrition, sleep, and physical movement, which enhanced her productivity and well-being. Jenn also emphasizes fostering a healthy work culture at PayShepherd, highlighting flexibility, team support, and the value of life’s big moments. She explains how the company’s approach positively affects clients and their communities, offering valuable lessons for entrepreneurs and business leaders.
About Jenn Hunter
Jenn Hunter is a Co-Founder of PayShepherd, a contractor management solution that automates contract compliance, resulting in real-time cost reporting, shared accountability, and effective risk management, providing clients with improved operating margins. PayShepherd is ranked #13 in “Forbes 2024 Best 200 Canadian Startup Employers” and “2024 Products That Count” winner in the category of AI & Data.
Jenn's focus is on customer outcomes. She brings deep domain expertise from her background in heavy industry and has navigated every phase of the customer journey, from solutions and delivery to end-user support. Jenn is an EY Entrepreneur Of The Year 2024 finalist, an associate member of the A100, as well as mother to 3 boys under the age of 5.
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Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Jenn Hunter:
Website: payshepherd.comLinkedin: Jenn Hunter--
Transcript
Jenn 00:02
It's all personal to me. It's my baby, like I've sacrificed so much personally for this, and this has afforded me so much personally as well. And so the blend to me is just, it's just my time. And you know, whatever is the highest priority in the moment, gets my time.
Leah 00:19
Hi, thanks for being here. And welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many, and yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems, and they're creating an incredible impact. But it is hard work. So, why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:06
Joining me in studio today is Jenn Hunter, co-founder and director of operations for PayShepherd, a contractor management platform for heavy industry. Hey, Jenn.
Jenn 01:14
Hey, Leah.
Leah 01:16
Thanks so much for doing this.
Jenn 01:17
Of course happy to.
Leah 01:19
So fun to have you in the studio. Let's go right back to the beginning, as we do with all of these conversations, how did you actually get into entrepreneurship?
Jenn 01:27
I wouldn't have thought that I would be an entrepreneur. It definitely wasn't something I thought about growing up. But it wasn't something I was exposed to a lot. But a colleague that I'd worked with for many years had, you know, left the company that we were both at, and he was starting something and he asked if my husband and I wanted to invest. And so I actually got to kick the can without taking a lot of risk. I still had a full-time job, I didn't have to, you know, lose that financial security for my family. But I was able to kind of join the hustle and see what that was like. And it was a really great stepping stone for me to actually take it on full-time, which I would consider kind of the real baby as PayShepherd.
Leah 02:01
Okay, cool. So, you dipped your toe in the water with this first operation? And how did you feel about it? Even from the get-go? What did it feel like to you?
Jenn 02:10
I mean, it felt really natural for me like the hustle, you kind of like picking up the evenings and weekends, it was like really exciting to have like that new problem to solve and that new thing to reach for, and have it be a bit my own, you know, you always do that at work. And that's kind of what, you know, he probably saw on me and having it be something that we were working at for ourselves was really awesome. And that's how we started PayShepherd as well. You know, we worked really hard for 12 months, and it was a small operating margin, the cash flow was really tight. Wes was always in the field managing labour, it was super challenging. It wasn't conducive to like going off and having families of our own and things like that. So, we used that money that we made in that company and seeded the next venture that we had, which was PayShepherd.
Leah 02:58
So, let's talk a little bit about PayShepherd, right? What is it?
Jenn 03:00
PayShepherd is a contractor management solution, and we really digitize the workflow between contractors and their clients. And we're experts at the relationship between clients and their contractors, and what good looks like and it automates the contract compliance. So, you know, anything from post award to invoices paid and the relationship is being managed and performance metrics and who's going to be awarded the next job. That whole lifecycle is, you know, without PayShepherd, there's like no data flow, there's really thumb wags of what good looks like and costs that are coming in and no visibility. And so PayShepherd solves that gap in the relationship but provides the opportunity for the source of the information and the source of the data to share it back and forth with the parties that need it. And it is really a shared data source. And so now both parties have access to that single source of record and a communication tool to manage that relationship.
Leah 04:00
So, did you identify that problem that you wanted to solve this idea of digitizing this industry right from the get go? Or was it something that you sort of came to realize over time?
Jenn 04:10
On my side, it was always a problem I had seen and lived painfully from the vendors experience. So, you know, there's a lot required of a vendor from their payroll, their billing, administration, reporting progress, their own performance that they need to report to their client. And when that's not going well, you could waste loads of hours, like sitting in the office. I remember, you know, being in the office, five extra hours, one day a week, after everyone had left just looking for, you know, some formula error or some like data entry problem, because the numbers just weren't making sense and it's super painful. And if that relationship is not going well, it can get quite hostile. It's like not a fun environment to be around. And so we really wanted to set out to solve that people could invest the time where they could add the most value, and not waste time creating data, manually checking for errors and eroding relationships, and really invest in the good value and the work that they could be doing.
Leah 05:14
Interesting, and you're in heavy industry. So, for people listening, like what is heavy industry, what do we mean by that?
Jenn 05:21
Anything that you can, you know, drive by or look at. Smokestacks, or pipelines, or big facilities that have a lot of operations, you know, they require that skilled trade force of, you know, boilermakers and pipe fitters and electricians and things like that. It's really the bedrock of our industry, and it's not going anywhere, it fuels a lot of the Canadian economy. And it's a really exciting place to be, you get to build something from the ground up and like see it go to operations, and it's just a really fun place to be when it's going well, and it can be really not a great place to be when it's not going well, or when the relationship is eroding.
Leah 05:59
So, what does that look like? What do you mean by that? Like, how bad can it get? Like, give me an example.
Jenn 06:04
Yeah, well, I mean, when you're kind of building something, and it's, you know, way back in the back 40, or, you know, in really small communities, most people have to travel in. And so you work all day with people who are on opposite sides of the contract and opposite sides of the, whatever incentives they're working at. But then you also go home to the camp and you sit across the table from one another, or you are, you know, eating at the same restaurants, or you're having people over for dinner, and like there's all these different facets of those relationships that you have to navigate. And so it's not always the easy thing to do the right thing.
Leah 06:48
Right. Oh, interesting. And so of course, when everything's digital, then that's just removed?
Jenn 06:47
It removes the subjectivity. And the difficult conversation of I need you to do this. And PayShepherd really allows it to be well, the technology found this and let's have a conversation about it, or the corporation requires this of me, and now I need to have a conversation with you about it, or for your contract, this is the expectations and this is what you're accountable to. And the system does all that. The data tells the system and the system is advising people how to handle it and how to, like manage those decisions. Yeah, so it doesn't need to be like a, he said, she said, or I think this is happening. You're coming, and you're having that dialogue with the data. We just heard a really great customer call just yesterday. And so a quote that that person had was, they feel indebted to PayShepherd. PayShepherd had helped them save like half a million dollars because they didn't have to go to litigation with a contractor, and they could come to that conversation with data. And he said, I never like to go to my CEO without data. And I always go to PayShepherd to get my data.
Leah 07:48
Whoa, how does that feel to hear that?
Jenn 07:51
It feels incredible. PayShepherd does a really great job at letting customers know where the value is happening. You know, the system, it has that like audit record, and we can report on that, and it's part of our analytics. And so we are already, you know, having a dialogue with the customer about the return or the value to the vendors and the value to the customer and the users. But to hear somebody talk about a value that we didn't even narrate or, you know, we didn't even know that it escalated to that point, that's really powerful. And that's part of the impact that PayShepherd is making that we don't even realize sometimes.
Leah 08:28
So, and this is founder, I mean, you're building this thing. And you're really hoping that it's going to solve these problems and make life easier. So, when you hear something like that, what does that mean to you personally?
Jenn 08:41
Personally, it feels so validating hearing that I just love that story. The customer is happy, you know, they're delighted, you know that they're going to be a returning customer, it feels really awesome. But for me, the most exciting thing is when we talk to prospects, and they know they have this problem, they're super problem where they know that they're not looking at things, they know there's issues happening. And when they hear that there's something that can help them solve that. There's just like this lightning in them, and like a bit of relief, that's a really big human impact. They work really hard, they're working 12 hours a day, and they're just getting, do they need to do two more hours of paperwork before they make it home to their families? And, you know, often in peak periods they're working more than seven days in a row, could be like 14-21 days in a row to like do a major turnaround or, you know, be part of that critical path on a capital project. And just being able to give them a little bit more time back, let them know that every single piece of data is being checked and it's compliant. And you know, they don't have to comb through pieces of paper or bank service boxes worth of invoices after and potentially deal with litigation. That's, you know, what we set out to do and it's funny because as founders, you talk about these things, really early on. Some of the things we haven't even developed to the product yet, but we hear the customer still needs them. So, it's very validating that we really understood the problem, you know, six years ago, and before we even set out to build the technology, and we wanted to solve it, then. And it's still a problem now. It's really validating to say, like, you're on the right path, kind of like a deja vu moment, you're like, Oh, I've been here before, I'm on the right path.
Leah 10:19
That's got to feel nice, to get that validation. Especially because as a founder, and I know this, I've talked to founders all the time, you know, it's an uphill battle, building a venture. You know, it's like, a few steps forward, and a whole bunch back, and a few steps forward, and a whole bunch back. But to get that little piece of validation, it's got to be instrumental.
Jenn 10:37
It's very interesting. I often describe it like a roller coaster, because even in those moments, and I'm, you know, talking about this really, like, you know, brightly here, but there's always like the, okay, that's the problem we need to solve, and how are we going to solve it, and like, you don't get a lot of time to celebrate those moments. And there's always a few other problems or items that you want to solve for in the background. So, it's never really like, you're just getting to enjoy it in the day, you can experience that super high and the super low. And so I always share with people like a piece of my advice is like, don't do it alone, have like co-founders, have a team around you. And like, you know, trusted advisors, because it can be a lonely journey, never putting work down, always taking it home with you, always thinking about something that's going on in the background, because there's always things to solve.
Leah 11:24
Of course, there's always a problem to solve. Yeah, no kidding. Can we talk a little bit more about heavy industry and women in heavy industry? Am I right to assume that there are fewer women in heavy industry?
Jenn 11:36
For sure, it's a male-dominated field, I've had a really amazing experience. Personally, I've had great mentors, that were women in heavy industry. I’ve had great mentors who were men in heavy industry, but it is harder to find us. And I think that it's changing now, I see a lot more women champions, women decision-makers, and that's really awesome for us. But not a lot of people know, the difference between dealing with a male champion or a male decision maker and a women decision maker, like what's important to them is different, how they're going to make decisions is different. And that's a little bit of a piece that I bring to the perspective for our team. And I don't know all of the different perspectives that there are, but at least there's a little bit of more of a diverse strategy session when we're dealing with different types of personas.
Leah 12:23
For sure. Is it important to you to be a part of that conversation and be leading some of that change?
Jenn 12:29
I've never had to fight for it yet, previous organizations or here, but I do, you know, work with people who have had to fight for it, and they appreciate it a lot more than I do, because it's such a different thing that they perceive at PayShepherd. So, I really value that. We really value like fast conversations. And so, you know, I'm not saying that I've never heard something that I didn't appreciate, or, you know, find a comment to be, you know, biased or things like that. But I just have a conversation right away and be like, what was the intention behind that? Do you realize how that might have come across? And I hope it helps just bring awareness to people as they speak to others and how things might come across too.
Leah 13:10
For sure. That's where it starts with awareness. Yeah. So exciting. Okay, so let's talk about you as a founder, and you're building this company. And let's talk about the fact that you're building this company alongside you're building your family. We were just walking in here. And I was like, and how many kids do you have again? And you have three kids?
Jenn 13:29
I do, well, I have four babies. So PayShepherd.
Leah 13:31
PayShepherd is one of them.
Jenn 13:33
Yeah, I mean, just that whole history, the first time that I became pregnant, my husband and I had been trying for a while, just since before we had founded PayShepherd. It took a while for us. And so we never knew when it was going to happen. We had to keep trying, because like we knew we wanted to have a family. And then we'd been off the ground, probably for about a year, you know, getting some traction. Working really hard at getting traction. And then I'm like, Oh, what do we do now? And I go and tell my co-founder, and it was such a difficult conversation for me to have. He's like, congratulations, so amazing. Like, didn't fase him whatsoever. And I'm like, already, like we're trucking on. We were still the founding team at that point when I had my first and so I could navigate everything between naps, evenings and weekends. And in fact, I was even still working part-time for income. So, I was like, totally skilled at using every little piece of time that I had, and I got to be home with the baby. That was an interesting one because a customer that we had had at that time, we had closed a contract with them for like six months, and we were waiting for them to make the first move to execute on the project. And the paperwork came in the day I was in the delivery room.
Leah 14:41
No, how did you manage that?
Jenn 14:44
I, you know, had a conversation with my husband, he's sitting in the hospital room across from me and I was like, oh shit. This just happened. So, you're gonna have to take time off for the baby. So, he just took paternity leave. And we just figured out how many weeks he needed to take and you know, figure that out with EI, he took time off. And it's been, that's been like the basis of all of the success because dad knows how to do naptime. Dad knows how to, like manage the baby schedule, Dad's doing bottles. Well, my partner and I are travelling to the clients to deliver the results of this, and I'm pumping in the backseat, and we like don't look in the rearview mirror, you know?
Leah 15:22
I love this. Don't look in the rearview mirror, buddy. Wow, that's amazing. Okay, but you know, this is a funny story. We're having a giggle now. Okay, but I have had a couple of kids myself when you're in it. And you're in a moment, tell me what's going through your mind? Like, are you thinking to yourself, is this even possible? Like, can we pull this off?
Jenn 15:0
So, not with the first one, the first one was like, that was a pretty good breeze. And by the time we got super busy, like full daytime work, and that customer that we were working with was like implementing little one could go off to daycare. So, it was great. And then because we had to try for a little while, we weren't thinking it would be super easy to get pregnant again. But it was. And with the second, we had a customer in the pipeline who was moving really fast. And I'm like I am expecting and I don't know when this is going to close. So, it was like, I can't stop a biological clock here. I remember it was like around the eight-month mark and it was clear, they were going to close, and I was going to have this baby. And so I just had to get creative. And I went to my mom and I said, can you help us out? And so she retired early, she took a lower pension, and she moved in with us and took care of the baby. Now that was all like fine and dandy. I was back at the desk, 10 hours plus a day, within two weeks. And so it was a really big strain. But we needed to do it. I was the only person on the team at that point who was customer-facing implementation and delivery. And so we hired some help. And they joined all the trainings that I was doing. It was really great timing, they could listen to me, you know, do the training for eight hours a day, in and out. And then they took that part over and I was doing more of the like customer success and like working with the stakeholders and managing the project. We implemented that customer in four weeks, like a large cohort of their contractors, and they had over 50 million in spend through our platform in the first three months. It was an incredibly busy time. But it was also the time when I was like, What am I going to change here at home to make this sustainable because I was starting to get some postpartum anxiety. I didn't really realize that at the time, it was during COVID. So, it was bit normal for me to have a baby on like, you know, baby noises like on the camera while I’m training users and stuff. So, I was super thankful for that. But I noticed every day around like 11, I was starting to become like short of breath. And I would just like choke it back thinking that I might have a dry throat from talking all day, having water. And then it took me a couple months to realize this wasn't happening to me on the weekends. And I was like, is this a stress thing? I've never gone through anything like that before stress or anxiety. And then I had a panic attack in the middle of the night, while I'm feeding the baby. And I'm like shaking. And I'm like, I know that these hormones are going to be passed to my baby through the breast milk because it's actively happening and he's attached to me. How was this baby going to go to sleep and then I'm not gonna be able to go to sleep. And it's just like compounding, it was spiralling for sure. Luckily, I got the baby to sleep. And I was freezing. Like I had the chills. I was like super, in a weird state. And I like went in the hot tub at like four in the morning and just like calmed myself down long enough that I could wake my husband up, have a conversation and like decide to change a few things. It was a really interesting place to be. I think I also had like some health complications and you know, was dealing with fevers and like infection, basically. And so once I manage that, all of the issues went away. Like they tested me for like congestive heart failure because of some of the things they were seeing in my blood test results and a whole bunch of different things. And I realized that yeah, it was like a weird combination of postpartum anxiety, stress and like it's an infection and internal infection.
Leah 19:14
Wow. Yeah. And this is all happening and you're building your company, and you've got this little tiny baby?
Jenn 19:21
Early days, super small team, need to be at work every day. I remember was feeling so weird, like taking half a day off and like driving, you know, down to see a specialist like in Calgary and going to these like appointments and like being like away from my desk like it's a bit weird. Even now, it's a bit weird to be like I'm on a vacation day. And like I'm just not looking like it's you really have to retrain yourself at these different stages.
Leah 19:48
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Okay, so you know, the part of me that's not an entrepreneur is sitting here going, Okay, why would you do this to yourself?
Jenn 20:18
It's very interesting. Just seeing like, I've had a conversation recently of like, okay, well, that's personal. And like, this is professional. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting perspective. I was like, I don't have that. It's all personal to me. It's all my, you know, my baby, like, I've sacrificed so much personally for this. And this has afforded me so much personally, as well. And so the blend to me is just, it's just my time. And you know, whatever is the highest priority in the moment gets my time. So, there's not a clear distinction between like that professional hat and the personal hat. And I'm okay with that. I think I've always operated on that plane. And I look at work-life balance as like a lifetime. Not like a day or a week or a year, right? Like, what will my work-life balance be like in a lifetime? And so I'm hopeful that, you know, this business will afford me time back with my family or, you know, special memories with my family because of sacrificing a lot of the time with them as a small babies.
Leah 21:14
Thank you for sharing that. That's an incredible story. So, that's on the personal side, we could say even though you just said it's all personal. But is there also a moment for you when it comes to actually building the company itself, where you're thinking, this is the do-or-die moment? Like this is a pivotal moment in the building of this company, where this is a no goes or go situation? Like it may or may not work? And we just gotta go for it. Is there one of those when it comes to actually building PayShepherd itself that comes to mind?
Jenn 21:43
Wow, that's a great question. I think about like all the go, or no-go moments. It's so funny. It's always been around people.
Leah 21:53
Around people?
Jenn 21:54
It is around. Like, I think about everything in the perspective of the human. I mean, the product is designed to help the human experience and to help the relationships. And so, it's end users that use our product. And it's people who develop our product, and it's people who scope out the activities that the product is going to need to solve. And so, I always think about it, is it the right people for the time? Is it the right clients? How do we motivate those users or motivate these teams? And so that's the perspective that I always think about, do we have the right combination of people?
Leah 22:30
And how do you feel about making those decisions? Like do you know, okay, actually, this person needs to go or this person needs to change how they're working or engaging with clients, or whatever the case may be? How do you feel about approaching that situation?
Jenn 22:45
It's so embedded in PayShepherd culture, the product is about accountability, a transparency, like honesty, doing what's right, acting with integrity with, you know, going where the data shows you to go. Everything we talk about with our customers is feedback. Our anomalies, our contract compliance is all feedback. So, feedback with our team is super critical. It's very important, and it's fast. And so if team members are not activating on that feedback, or they don't want to hear the feedback, just like a contractor, we need to be accountable to the feedback for their contracts. That's how we, like really manage people within our team. And I would say that, as a founding group, we've attracted really incredible people to join the journey, super long standing relationships, the relationship always comes first. That's another like, you know, critical thing for the product and for our industry. And that's how we operate in the team. And we also, you know, just trust our gut. And so, we have a lot of those conversations around like, this just didn't feel right. And, you know, maybe we're not going to, you know, bring that person in the team, like, love them, got them all the way across, almost to the finish line, and like something changed the game. Like we really trust that intuition.
Leah 23:58
I mean, I've heard from people that it takes a while to learn to trust that intuition. Did you find that?
Jenn 24:04
Muscle? I mean, I see that in every facet of my life, if you're not open to something, or if your pathways aren't used to operating that way, it will just be kind of ignored. It'll be overlooked, right? People's attention is like a few moments, and if you don't capture it, you know, you don't get it. So, I think that it's a muscle that you definitely practice.
Leah 24:25
Yeah, there's a lot of practice when it comes to venture building isn't there? You got to practice ways to be and practice all kinds of ways of thinking and so on. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Jenn 24:33
It's a big transformation. You're constantly transforming, like the business as like a team of three founders is different than a team of 10 people. And the team of 10 people with, you know, a handful of customers is different than a team of, you know, 30 people with dozens of customers. And, you know, a team of no financial backing to a team of multiple different stages and different investors is a different beast as well. So, it's kind of like parenting, I always relate it to like, I'm constantly learning about this new phase. It's kind of like that. It's an ever-transformational journey, which can be hard, which changes your heart.
Leah 25:11
Of course, it can be hard. Yeah, absolutely. How do you deal with that change? How do you deal with that constant evolution?
Jenn 25:16
I would say that on the business side, that comes a lot more naturally to me because I'm doing it way more. The parenting transformations, they're harder because like didn't come with a manual. I haven't been practicing it for 10 years. And they're faster, they're a bit faster. But yeah, it's just about time. It's about reflecting on those. And like, kind of knowing where you want to get to.
Leah 25:36
Right, keeping that outcome that you're going after in mind. Yeah, how do you take time for yourself now, to stay sort of sane, and well, as you negotiate all these transformations, and change and venture building?
Jenn 25:48
I've recently stumbled upon like, generating some better habits for myself. I mean, my habit used to be, well, the work needed to happen, and I'm like a night owl. So, it'd be like, do I have my refreshments, which is like half a bowl of chocolate chips and like a tea, like a caffeinated tea at 11pm. And I'm going back to work when I finally get the kids down, and I know I have like a four hour solid stretch before they wake up the next time. That used to be my like habit. And even then, the like, one hour that I've got to myself is after that. So, I would still like watch a show before going to bed, I had to like transition to be able to sleep. I don't do that anymore. Like for sure. Like focusing on nutrition kind of focusing on like getting outside and doing that like bilateral movement. So, like riding a bike or walking or doing anything I have to think about strategically while moving, because you can activate both your analytical side of your brain and your creative side of your brain. So, I get a lot more success. Learning, so, listening to something, having our walking meetings. So, I'm not distracted by like pings and slack and things like that. Walking anytime I want to think about critically by myself. I want to be walking. So, walking. Yeah.
Leah 26:58
Good for you.
Jenn 27:00
It’s like a recent change.
Leah 27:02
Is that right?
Jenn 27:03
It's pretty recent. Yeah.
Leah 27:05
Was there something that made you go I need to make some changes, like right now.
Jenn 26:07
So, three kids back to back under two years, apart from all of them, and never taking a mat leave really. I was in a state where I was like, I kind of just realized that I wasn't handling stress well. I was like, Okay, I'm not. I have a bit of like a workload paralysis, like I'm not navigating through and being effective. So, then it took me a couple of months to navigate, well, what do I do from here, and then I was just like this, I need to change. I need to have a bigger change, like a lifestyle change. And so I instituted that like maybe just over six months ago. And it has been really a game changer like prioritizing sleep, eating better. And getting like that getting walking and moving and a little bit of identity back to, I mean, that's pretty isolating as a parent as well, and an entrepreneur. So, just like the double whammy of those two things, just trying to like hark back a little bit of like what old Jenn would have been like.
Leah 28:01
What does Jen need? Yeah, not just everybody else in the business. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Good for you. That's amazing. The other thing I want to talk to you about is impact. Impact is really important for us at Thin Air Labs. And I know it's very important for you at PayShepherd. When you think about impact, what do you think about?
Jenn 28:23
I think about it kind of threefold. I think about our team, the team that we're building, the culture that we have, and like how our team shows up and celebrates that. I think about our clients and I think about community and I have a couple of examples. For our team, we work really hard. We work peak at like, you know, long hours when our customers are in peak periods, the industry is, you know, very leanly resourced, and during those peak periods, like adding one more new thing to someone's plate, like a technology can be really challenging, and we lean all the way into those people to make sure that it's as seamless as possible. And so that affords our team to have more flexibility and manage their own day, you know, they don't have to be at the desk between, you know, eight to five, you know, if they need to go and, you know, attend their child award ceremony that they've never been able to do at any of their past careers, they can now do that and like see their kids face light up like I've my mom's never been here for one of these. Those are the moments that are just like, incredible, we built that. That's never going away. And like people show up differently when, like, their life is valued like that, and their big life moments are valued like that. For our customers, there's a lot of leakage, you know, there's a lot of savings that our customers can have, and when we can report big numbers for the return on the client's investment, and then they can come back to us and tell us it was even more than that, because of the litigation we saved them. Different industries are going through different, you know, macro economy effects where there's a lot of pressure on certain industries. And when there's high amount of pressure on industry and projects get shut down or, you know, facilities have to close or, you know, they cut half the staff that can really greatly impact the community, the small towns where these people live, their livelihoods, the dynamic of the team that remains after that. And so if we can, you know, make a facility a little bit better margin, like operational margin. You know, performing a little bit better, be able to delay those, or completely put them off, that can change the community and like really impact the client.
Leah 30:36
Like that's bigger than the company, it's bigger, it's it affects the whole community, to your point. That's incredible. That's amazing. When we talk about impact, it's often what drives a lot of people. For you, when you think of staying motivated, how do you stay motivated to keep doing what you do? What's your driver?
Jenn 30:54
Like, I wake up every day, and like, get to work with a great group of people who want to solve problems. You know, it's not fun to show up when, you know, someone doesn't want to be part of what they're solving. And they don't, you know, want to, like lean in and support their team. Like the way our team shows up is, you know, anyone needs help, it's there, it might not be my deliverable might not be my client, but like, oh, you need some support, like, boom, let's get it done. We move fast, we, you know, collaborate, and we attract some of the brightest minds coming from the industry that are looking to be able to be part of the solution and have, you know, experienced the problem for so long. And the enterprise organization is a dinosaur, and it takes a really long time to change, and here at PayShepherd, they can just be like, boom, making changes every day, seeing impact and seeing value. Like that's super attractive to them. So, they're very energized, and I just feed off of that energy, and I just love working with them.
Leah 31:50
That's incredible. And then they get to participate in this incredible culture that you built, you know.
Jenn 31:56
Participate, form, you know, every individual that comes onto the team, like they, you know, add their own spark to the team, and, you know, motivate and inspire us all. And so, we really look for that when we make each hire.
Leah 32:08
How many people are, you know, I forgot?
Jenn 32:10
We're north of 40.
Leah 32:13
Wow, congratulations.
Jenn 32:15
Thank you.
Leah 32:16
You just broke into a really huge grin, when I asked you that question. What does that mean to you to have, you’ve got 40 People now, on your team?
Jenn 32:26
It's a lot of responsibility.
Leah 32:29
Sure, it is.
Jenn 32:30
It's been a lot of fun. Like, it's been great to see the momentum change with different individuals come on the team, learn from people who have done it before, see the different perspectives like I have a really strong vendor perspective. But you know, a lot of people that our team now come from the client side, and I love the collaboration that comes from those two sides coming together. We hire really diversity for skills. And so each new person that comes to the team is offering something that we didn't already have, and we're all learning from that. So, it's just, like, have been super incredible. We're coast to coast. You know, we can hire from like, you know, remote, small towns, and like, you know, we're bringing talent to the industry that might not have been able to come to that before. That adds its own like layers of conflict, complexity. But yeah, we’re really intentional about forming relationships, getting pop-up offices, getting the team together, we're actually all going to be together in Calgary in September. So, we'll all come and you know, be buzzing around here probably.
Leah 33:34
That sounds great. We look forward to it. That's amazing. Well, as we start to wrap this up, I always like to end on a couple of questions. You're the founder of PayShepherd, you're one of the co-founders, and you're writing the story for your company. How do you want the story for PayShepherd to go?
Jenn 33:52
I can't wait to see PayShepherd as like a standard name. The brand is recognized across multiple different industries, I want to be working with the most mature sophisticated clients and industries, you know, right up to those really heavily regulated industries that are very problem aware, they're trying to solve this. And they're like looking at performance management. PayShepherd can play in that field, and I want us to be like a known brand, a household name in all of industry, and really benefiting both sides of the relationship vendors and clients. And from there, you know, globally recognized is the goal. So, transcending industries, and transcending continents is kind of like my star.
Leah 34:33
Whoa, that's so exciting. I love it. And as a founder, you know, you are a founder, you founded this incredible company. How do you hope your story goes?
Jenn 34:45
I mean, I really hope that my three young boys are seeing, like, what hard work and dedication can do for themselves, for their families, you know, for their livelihoods. I want to be able to, you know, give them all the opportunities and like build little feminists like I want them to walk into any room and you know, be totally aware and be an ally and, you know, like, Let all perspective shine. And so, if I can do that by how I show up at work, at home, you know, they will understand what the mental load is like to run a business, to manage a household, to, you know, take care of other people, and that doesn't all need to fall on any certain person or any certain gender, then I'll have been winning.
Leah 35:32
You sure are? Jenn, thank you so much for this.
Jenn 32:36
Of course. Thank you for having me. It was really fun.
Leah 35:42
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Leah 36:36
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This episode of The Founder Mindset follows the fascinating journey of Co-Founder Megan Leslie’s journey to create NanoTess, a pioneering biotechnology company that is transforming wound care and skin health. Host Leah Sarich explores Megan’s passion for problem-solving, along with the drive and the nagging doubts that come with entrepreneurship. Megan discusses her perfect synergy with her Co-Founder/business partner (also spouse) and the unique way they tackle challenges in the business together. One of Megan’s biggest takeaways in business is the importance of celebrating small wins to maintain motivation and morale, both as the Founder and for the benefit of your team. Taking the time to acknowledge your accomplishments makes all the struggles worthwhile.
The episode highlights the Founders' leadership approach, which includes leading by example, maintaining a cross-functional mindset, and recognizing that the ripple effects of the product are often just as important as the product itself. Megan discusses the challenges of selling their vision, not just their product, and the importance of how it is received by the market. Megan also shares her vision and dream to build community through storytelling, making a lasting impact on her customers and the wider community. Tune in to hear the inspiring journey of NanoTess, the challenges they faced, the breakthroughs they achieved, and the invaluable lessons they've learned along the way.
About Megan Leslie
Megan holds degrees in both Mechanical Engineering and Finance. Her professional work experience has focused on designing and implementing enterprise-wide strategy and workforce transformations for Fortune 500 companies through a human-centered design approach. Megan has worked with members of large enterprise Executive Leadership Teams (C-suite) to achieve alignment and vision for long-term people-centered, Future of Work business strategies. At NanoTess, Megan is leading the company in creating new frontiers of opportunity within healthcare through catalytic innovation, beginning with skin and wound healing.
With a vision to end the silent pandemic of complex wounds and improve skin health, NanoTess is on a mission to provide leading edge technology to improve patient outcomes, address the needs of both patients and healthcare providers, and reduce healthcare costs. To date, NanoTess' technology, NanoSALV Catalytic, has helped thousands of Canadians heal.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Brené Brown - FFTs--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Megan Leslie:
Website: NanoTess.comLinkedin: NanoTess Inc.Email: [email protected]--
Transcript
Megan 00:02
We move so fast in like, we integrated NanoSALV across an entire hospital. Okay, what's next? And they, our team cheerleader, steps back and says, We integrated NanoSALV across an entire hospital! This is a huge win. So it's the same with wins and with challenges. It's, what's next?
Leah 00:24
Hi, thanks for being here. And welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems. And they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:12
Joining me in the studio today is Megan Leslie, co-founder and CEO of NanoTess, a biotechnology company that has developed a product called Nano self, a Health Canada approved medical device for improving wound care and skin health. Megan, thank you so much for being here.
Megan 01:26
Thank you so much for having me.
Leah 01:28
This is so fun. This is probably one of my most favorite things to do is to sit around and talk to founders. So thank you for being here.
Megan 01:35
It's a pleasure.
Leah 01:36
Let's go right back to the beginning. So tell me how you decided to become an entrepreneur in the first place?
Megan 01:42
Oh, great question, I like to say kind of slapped us in the face. So my co-founder and I, we were always problem solving. And so he happens to be my spouse. And in long drives, we would think of startup ideas. And some of them, we build little business plans for it. And we challenge other startup ideas and how we evolve them differently. And this was kind of what we talked about a topic of conversation as a couple for years. And when we had the unfortunate event of losing both his parents to chronic health conditions, we met incredible scientific leaders who were developing really, really cool technology. And we happen to use some of it to provide end of life care for his dad, and saw firsthand the benefits. So when we returned to Canada, our other founder gave us a call and said I’d like to start a company. I'd like to start them with you. And do it in Canada. And from there, we said, well, if not us then who? And if not now when? And then we went from there.
Leah 02:51
That's incredible. So I'm just picturing this, the two of you in the car together hanging out. And you guys are like doing business models and plans like just hanging out together?
Megan 03:03
Yep, pretty much. Yeah, we worked in Grand Prairie. So it was a good seven and a half, eight hour drive. We did oil and gas so it was 15 days on and six days off. And from there every 15 days, we drive back to Calgary to see friends and family. And that's what we would do. We'd listen to business books, and we talk about different startup ideas.
Leah 03:24
So you knew you wanted to be a founder right from the get go.
Megan 03:28
I loved problem solving. And I loved learning. And there were very few professions that I could do that would satisfy the speed at which I wanted to learn. And both of us ended up going into management consulting. Very similar. We got to learn a lot really fast in a variety of different industries. So, I think I did 15 industries over seven years of my initial career, solving very different problems. And that was exciting to me, building up the generalist skill set that I feel has been very helpful now as a founder to know that I've dabbled in a little bit of HR and a little bit of finance, a little bit of engineering and just all over the place, for sure. And to give confidence that we can tackle unknown problems, never by ourselves, but by leveraging the support of a network.
Leah 04:24
Wow. So help me understand then the motivation for NanoTess itself. So let's first start with why don't you tell us a little bit about what NanoTess actually is.
Megan 04:32
We specialize in making catalysts that help solve some of the world's toughest biological problems and we're beginning that with skin and wound care. So we've developed a catalyst that's approved and in market within the NanoSALV product, and it's been able to help accelerate healing from stage four or chronic wound through to minor acute skin tears, irritations. And what we see is in a hospital setting a wound that would typically take maybe four months, healing in about half the time. So the quality of life impact for healing in half the time, the cost savings, the patient and caregiver, life's dramatically impacted. That's our start first. First start of catalysts. And then ultimately, that big dream is to continue to develop more and more catalysts that go into more products to help accelerate different health conditions, from cancer through to beauty and wellness,
Leah 05:30
I'm going to pull at a couple of those strings. So first of all, you really wanted to help people after experiencing these devastating losses in your family. So maybe just tell me a little bit about how you thought about that, like, how did you go from experiencing these losses to going: you know what we need to work on this, we need to solve some of these problems.
Megan 05:50
Thinking back on it, we often reflected it as almost a therapeutic journey at first. So, because we've always done this, this is the way we think, the way, where we get our joy, solving problems, building concepts. We'd lost both his parents, and it was just over 13 months, it hit really hard. And I think what got us through it is instead of just obsessing on the negatives, and where do you go from here? We were able to obsess on problem solving. And it was, in a way, a distraction, perhaps, but also a distraction that we would do in our normal lives. It felt very normal, it brought us back to normal, this is also during the pandemic. So there wasn't a whole lot of physical in person support systems that we could have at the time, and building the company in that period of time. And just thinking about it and working together on it. I think it got us back into a routine and brought us back to what is normal for the two of us.
Leah 06:54
For the two of you to do these big problem solving initiatives. I love this. And I could see how that would help you move through the grief because then you actually feel like you're doing something.
Megan 07:05
Yep, you’re moving forward. Yeah.
Leah 07:06
Yeah. So, then you were saying how these wounds are being healed? You're seeing this, you know, like cutting half the time out? Like that is unbelievable.
Megan 07:20
It is. Yeah.
Leah 07:22
So what's that, like when you see your product working like that?
Megan 07:23
I think it's really special. And the reason why all of those long car rides with all these different startup ideas, didn't amount to anything beyond just fun conversation, is because we weren't truly passionate, to the degree of dropping everything in our lives and sacrificing everything, we have to make something happen. And Julian and I both jumped into things. 110%. So we knew if we were committing to a startup, we were committing to a startup. And I think that because this had such a dramatic impact on us. And we saw the potential to help support families going through similar situations that we'd gone through at least minimizing an aspect of their care journeys and pain, we were able to commit full and to say this is the one that if we're gonna kind of be an entrepreneur, this is the time this is what we have to do. And every day. And every one of the stories we get from patients or families and healthcare professionals, is what keeps us going. Every year and every month, every day.
Leah 08:29
I've seen some of those stories, I've seen some of those patients' reactions, and they are life changing. They are life changing stories, and that's your product. How does it feel when you hear people saying that this changed my life?
Megan 08:44
It's, I'd say almost surreal. More than anything. I was told once by another healthcare founder that we're always the most skeptical of our own products. And I think it's very true. And when I reflected on that, I think it’s because we want it to work so badly for every single person because we care so deeply. So every single time a new individual or resident patient, family member, health care provider uses it, we always have that little nagging feeling in the back of our minds of but what if it didn't work this time? And that's the thing that, especially in the early days, before we had a lot of data to support the efficacy was the thing that kept us up at night is well what if, what if it doesn't work? And I'm happier now that we have a lot of data. So the evidence has convinced me that yes, we have something really special, but everyday they're still that, “but what if, what if?”, I think it's just part of being a founder, getting through that just because you care so much. You really want it to do exactly what it was designed to do.
Leah 9:54
It feels really high stakes. Like when you're saying to me that, you know, it keeps you up at night, you're wondering if this product that you've put everything your whole life into, like, what if it doesn't work? That sounds terrifying to me, like, I really can't understand why you would do that.
Megan 10:10
You added health elements into that, and it gets even a little bit more, a little bit more table stakes. But because it's not, if a software maybe didn't work, it's still incredibly high stakes. But when it's a health related challenge that you're also solving for someone, and health is very personal to all of us. And especially to me and Julian with our lived experiences, it becomes very terrifying, because you don't want your product to not provide the benefit that you intend, you hope that it will. So I'm really happy and grateful that we've gone through our trials, we've gone through the testing, and the evidence speaks to itself now so that I just keep pointing myself back to that and saying, yep, yep, it does work. It really works. And where can we go next to help support even more indications related? So that's the new addition of skin health into our focus area beyond just wound care. We are treating the skin as an organ, which means everything down to the bone through to just topical.
Leah 11:23
You're very ambitious about this, aren't you? Both of you?
Megan 11:27
We are, yeah. I think you have to be.
Leah 11:30
Yeah, I think you do. I think otherwise, why take the risk? Right?
Megan 11:33
I don't know, I take the risk, it'd be much, much less stressful to work a nine to five job if someone else writing your paychecks and go through a standardized career growth rate.
Leah 11:49
But it sounds like to me from what you're telling me that that wouldn't be enough for you?
Megan 11:53
Probably not., which is, yeah, a little bit a little bit funky.
Leah 11:58
Yeah, no kidding. Oh, my goodness. You've mentioned Julian a couple of times. And as you mentioned, he's your spouse. I gotta ask like, how is it working with your spouse every day, and again, not at some nine to five job where you can just sort of check out when you go out the door. Like where you are working together on something that is very high stakes, that has a lot of impact, that is really hard. How do you guys do that?
Megan 12:23
We just do. I think it's part of our relationship. It's part of who we've always been. And as we've heard, it's probably not for everybody. But for us, it was, this is the third company we've worked in together, we did our degree together. We've always worked and collaborated with one another in industry, in education, and now in something of an adventure on our own. And I think we don't know how to work without each other. It's probably the flip on that same question is, I know him so well. And he knows me so well, that we've made a like a symbiotic relationship where I know what he'll do for me, and he'll know what I'll do for him. And neither of us really crossed the line, often. So I know, I need to get a difficult customer or someone who's not responding on the line, I put Julian on them, because he's, he will get it done. He will call them until he's blue in the face. And then he knows if there's a deliverable due in a couple hours, he passes it to me because I'll be able to get it done. We've grown up into this so deeply that I don't know how we would work without each other anymore.
Leah 13:40
Fascinating, fascinating. I ask every founder that sits in this chair, when we have these conversations, there has to have been some kind of do or die moment as you were building this company or some sink or swim scenario where you were like this could really go wrong in a hurry. When you think about that, when it comes to building NanoTess, or maybe working with your husband or whatever the case may be, is there a moment that comes to mind for you?
Megan 14:09
They are the moments that we don't know were moments. You run at, or at least we run at, a baseline of stress all the time and anxiety. You get used to it. We have a lot of different coping mechanisms to help work through stress and anxiety. But the ones that I feel I almost like retrospectively lose sleep at night knowing that they happened even though they're over. The biggest example is one Julian had a bet with James Lockrey, our founder…
Leah 14:41
Oh, our Managing Partner, yeah, and investor in your company.
Megan 14:44
Yeah, in the early days that he could get the product approved, a NanoSALV approved within a set timeframe. And if he did it, James would have to buy the first unit. So he did it, James bought, two units, first first lot was commercially sold. And we walked our separate ways, and went back to work. And what we ended up finding out is that day James had met with another founder gave it to them, they gave it to their cousin, who had diabetic foot ulcers, and was that risk for going through the amputation process if they continue to progress. And all this happen without our knowledge. And at the same time, we were, we were starting our conversations with James about needing our seed financing. And I don't think James ever thought he was testing the product. But in hindsight, we were really, really happy that it worked. Because James came back saying it's worked so well. But I think what ended up happening in the middle of that story, actually, is the patient reached out and said, I got a tube of your stuff. And we were like 12345, counting on our fingers. Like, how? There's only like five that went out into the world. How did you get this? Is it us? And we followed the thread figured out where it came from, and that it was working for them. And James was so excited that it’s been working. And maybe it led to a successful financing round, maybe it didn't, but it definitely kept us up at night saying, oh, my goodness, the reality of what we do is people are going to access our product, they're going to try it. We're not going to know about every single case, nor will we ever want to know about every single case. And we have to live with that. So when you blow it back out, that's what kind of freaks you out? What is the ripple effect of every single unit that goes onto the market? For us, I think it was a financing round, in this case, and deepening our partnership with Thin Air Labs. And in another case, it may be, I don't know?
Leah 16:58
So, if I'm not mistaken that had that not worked, James probably would have heard about it. And that may have definitely affected his decision making.
Megan 17:09
Yep, I know. James is a wonderful person who definitely believes in founders, which is why we are so grateful to have him in this journey with us and the Thin Air Team. But I don't know if it would be difficult, I think to have it have not worked as much as you like and believe in a founding team. Their product doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it's kind of a little bit concerning.
Leah 17:39
For sure.
Megan 17:37
I'm sure we could have worked through it together.
Leah 17:39
But I'm sure you could’ve gone back to the lab and tried something else, but still.
Megan 17:43
I’m sure it wasn’t the one time shot as it felt at that time.
Leah 17:48
Wow., Okay, so how do you process that? Like, what does that feel like when you put those pieces together?
Megan 17:53
I don't know if we do. Julian and I are both very future focused to a fault. Let's designate a person on our team to be the team cheerleader. So when good things happen, they have to say, this was a good thing that happened. Because we move so fast in like, we integrated NanoSALV across the entire hospital, okay, what's next? And, our team cheerleader steps back and says, “We integrated national health across an entire hospital. This is a huge win1” So it's the same with wins and then with challenges. It's what's next? What's next? It's that constant problem solving, future focused, grow mindset. I don't think we give ourselves enough time to really wallow in the what ifs.
Leah 18:47
It sounds like it's what keeps you going regardless of what's happening. It's always like, I gotta move forward on this. Like, to your point, what is next? Doesn't even matter what's happening right now. Doesn’t matter that we got this product into a whole hospital into a whole healthcare system, as you've done now, several times.
Megan 19:02
I think it's a coping mechanism. But it's a positive one. It pushes it forward. I think it's important to celebrate the small wins too. And I think that's what we tried. So hard to do it. And then finally, they say to delegate what you're not good at, and we’re not good at it, either of us have that skill, so we delegated it. And it's been very helpful, helpful for us and helpful for our team.
Leah 19:28
And to remind me, how big is your team right now?
Megan 19:30
About 20.
Leah 19:32
Wow, that's incredible.
Megan 19:33
We run a very lean company with our 20 unique heads. We manufacture up to $22 million of product a year in our facility. We do all of our sales, a large chunk of our distribution, all of our own marketing. Our HR, our payroll, our accounting. You know, the baselines that have to happen to run a business? We offer it, I think it's a poll we took from consulting with a very tiny team that's really focused on key objectives you can do a lot. And that's what we managed to do at NanoTess, I think it's, it's shocking to see where we're at when you think, well, we really only have 20 people, I don't think it's common.
Leah 20:18
Prior to this conversation, you said, you know, when you're building a startup, every once in a while, you're like, okay, well, someone's got to make the coffee and fill the coffee machine and, and do that kind of stuff. And then all sudden, you're looking around going, Wait a second, that's probably me. How do you fit that in, when you've got 20 people on your team and you're growing at the rate you are?
Megan 20:38
It just gets done. And I, I'm a big believer of leadership, by example. I will unload the dishwasher, I'll stay the latest, I'll do all of the roles. Because if I've done all of the roles, and I keep a pulse on each of them, then I'll be a better leader, because I'll be able to empathize with the realities of my team. So I, until we brought in team members and new leaders how important it was understand all the aspects of the business, to a degree, you don’t need to be an expert. But the most common one is just between sales and operations. So, if sales sells 100 units of a certain size, but operations has the most difficult time making that size, and sales could have pushed a different size, then all of a sudden, it's a disconnect. The advantages that Julian and I have as founders, is we’ve played all those roles. We've packaged all of those tubes ourselves, we know, it's ingrained. And our challenge and our opportunity is to give that cross collaboration and cross functional mindset to all of our team members, and especially, especially our emerging leaders and executive leaders.
Leah 21:57
But what I'm hearing too, is that you're doing all the things. Your point, maybe you don't have to be experts at all the things but you're still doing all the things. So how do you do all the things and stay well, sane, together, cope, cope with all the anxiety and stress that comes with being a founder? How does that work?
Megan 22:17
We now have a team. So we are delegating and undergoing the growth as leaders to manage and run a larger group of people. It's been really fun. What we try to do now is what we can delegate, we will delegate and give opportunities for others to go through those experiences to do their problem solving to continuously improve the business, whether it be operations on marketing, or commercial. And then for us, we've just tried to move ourselves into the bigger what we call stealing, or borrowing the term from Brene Brown, the FFTs. So the effing first times, those we control quite heavily still, because they're the first time. So no one knows what to do. And the best equipped know what to do is certainty members who've had certain experiences, but also either me, and or Julian, because we’ve seen every aspect of the company. So we’re giving a very holistic lens to our business, when we approach an FFT.
Leah 23:27
So, you're very calculated, you recognize, okay, this is an FFT, something we've never done before. We got to figure this out, but you're calculated about how often you have those and how you manage them?
Megan 23:40
We are starting to.
Leah 23:42
You are starting to be, you're practicing, saying yes, she has a big grin on her face, just FYI.
Megan 23:46
Very first time, I think we're so used to the hustle. In the early days of startup, you're pushing, you're fighting, you're trying to get every, every opportunity, you do everything possible to try and secure. For the first time ever, we have opportunities coming to us. Which are very different. And as a business, and as a team, we've had to learn how to handle that because a few months ago, we were drowning in opportunities. Everyone is so busy that we're not doing anything as well as I know we could. And that's when the key word that a lot of investors will say is, you need to focus. And I like to say you need to prioritize, because we need to be open to hearing different ideas, but then we need to focus on the ones and prioritize the ones that we're going to move forward. So we're not putting our blinders on necessarily, but we have to do a few things well. And so what we did is we ended up naming them FFTs because I was analyzing what we had on the go. And about 80% of every person on our team’s job was an FFT. This is ridiculous. This is way too much newness and strategic thinking and it's draining. FFTs are hard. And they demand more collaborative and more perspectives because no one knows what they're doing. So I started naming them. That's step one. And then step two is minimizing when they come up, we have the opportunity to file it into a, yes, we want to do it, a not right now, a no, because, parking lot, we don't have enough data to decide. For building structure into how to handle this new switch of us, getting people coming to us, for the first time. Team, being highly different has never really happened. So, we want to go after all of them. But it's a new shift, give us six months.
Leah 25:53
Well that, you knowing you guys, you'll be flying, it'll be no big deal. You talked about this briefly. But you mentioned this notion of ripple effects. What you do as a founder, and as a founding team, has this ripple effect through your whole team, and arguably even the community and the people you serve. How do you work through these ripple effects? How do you think about them?
Megan 26:39
I have Julian, this is one of the ones that he is so good at. He is a simulator. And he simulates every single action, like 16 steps. I simulate now too, because he's taught me over the years, but not to the same degree that he'll do it. But having that mindset of this is our ripple effect, has every action has a reaction. We're both engineers, and we are intentional to not jump into anything too fast. Because if we jump in too fast, we haven't taken the time to really analyze what is the ripple effect, what has to give in order to say yes to something new. And then acknowledging that mindset all the way into our team and into our customers. Because if we integrate NanoSALV into a long term care center, for example, that's a change that's occurring to their normal practice changes impacting a lot of people. A lot of people don't like change. So acknowledging that upfront and determining how can we create actions and approaches that minimize disruption, add value, and support the change process, it’s almost more important than the product we even sell. product needs to do its job. But the real work is how do you facilitate change, and in healthcare changes not, it’s slow? And in Canada, I think it's even slower, right? Because the because of how our system operates. It's a lot of fun to think about it like that. And you think we are a catalyst company, we sell medical solutions and technologies. Our biggest activity of the day is change management.
Leah 28:27
Right. So you're working through that, and you're very aware of it. Cool, cool. I know that talking to founders, they have all of this intensity and anxiety and stress in the work that they do. But what I've heard from many founders, and I've heard this from you as well is that what keeps you on track and motivated and centered is this notion of impact. It's very important to you, it's important to us, as well at Thin Air Labs, but it's very important to you I know, at NanoTess. How do you think about impact?
Megan 28:56
It’s the stories that keep us going. And I think the best way to answer it is actually a period of time when we didn't talk about the impact that we were making. So within our team, we had one summer, where our commercial team was focused on commercial and it wasn't being shared back to the rest of the team. I had one of my leads come up to me and say, I don't feel motivated, because I no longer know the impact that we're making. And it was a real eye-opening moment, it stuck with me. Why I bring it up for me, when you say that, is impact is so important to our motivation. And if we're not sharing it with ourselves or acknowledging it for ourselves, sharing it with our team, regardless of their role, it can have an impact. And this was a non-commercial facing team member who felt unmotivated because they didn't know all the exciting stories from the patients and their families that were happening. We flipped from that comment dramatically. And now every Monday we share our impact stories.
Leah 29:52
Really? What does that look like? Oh, on your team stand-up?
Megan 30:16
Yea, everyone shares their what's the impact we made? What comments have we heard? We’ll hear failures there too. And we get really exciting energy again, to keep going whether it be from an impact we made or a failure, we get to troubleshoot and problem solve. They both line us up as a team. And we've hired on a storyteller, who is also capturing more stories from past customers and users, and sharing their stories. So that, like, yes, it's a wonderful thing for us to hear as a team, it’s very empowering. But it's also for our community to hear, because if someone is sharing a personal experience that they've had with a wound, an individual hears it, that may be living a very similar experience. And knowing that there is hope, there are products, beyond NanoTess, there are solutions. We can create a community, and that community impact is almost equally as important as the solving of the problem, I feel because some problems, they won't be solved. But if you have a community around you, who's acknowledging the problem, and whose acknowledging the work that's needed to create solution, I think that matters. And that matters a lot. That's why we have, all of our exciting cancer campaigns is there’s still problems, but we have community and support, we're trying to create very similar feelings around wound care.
Leah 31:41
Let’s just take a quick moment to talk about wound care specifically, because I don't think people really appreciate it when you guys have talked about it as the silent pandemic, you know, and things like that. People don't understand the impact that these wounds can have on people's lives, you know, they're losing limbs, they're losing their lives for heaven's sake. And this is something that you're solving for. Tell me a little bit about how you think about this.
Megan 32:01
Every single human and animal will get a wound. So the problem is, it's non-specific, it's everybody just happens to matter how severe it is. And as we age, that probability of getting very severe and chronic wounds increases. Or as we develop comorbidities like diabetes, or, or have a spinal cord injury, reduced mobility, it's harder and harder and harder to heal naturally. And I think, mentally, healing is something that we've always done in our lives. Like, even if you get a cut, you get a blister, and you know, you'll heal, because you've always done it. But what happens when you don't? And all of a sudden, you're living with a 10 year wound. It's been open for 10 years. We have patients and family members that they, we actually had one employee, who, once they started working with us, they were telling their family member, and their mother said, I have some wounds, could this help with me? And they said, What do you mean, you have some wounds? And their mother was suffering from wounds for two years, and she had almost 50 on her body.
Leah 33:19
What?
Leah 33:20
And the only reason that her son knew is because he said he's starting to work for a wound care company. And she's like, well, maybe that could help. And that's why the community and the breaking down the silence around it is so important because you thought you would heal. And now it's kind of, why am I not? What's wrong with me? Why? Why is it not working anymore? It's because a ton of biological things happening to make it delay your healing, and you need help. So when we heal these wounds, our record right now is that 10 year old wound, now healed fully closed, we have a nine year old one that we've done as well. And they take a long time, not magic, it's not an overnight thing. And it's not without holistic care from health care professionals. Because these are limb and life threatening wounds. But we're really happy and grateful that we can provide a benefit, we can have those stories, like without this product, I feel I would have lost my husband, or my brother got a job for the first time in two years because he can finally put pressure again on his foot because he's been offloading from having a wound on his foot. And if you don't have a computer-based job, what do you do? So it's, it's those types of stories. Those are our Northstar stories. And then it's the big picture that we all deserve the peace of mind to know that we can heal, what we do at NanoTess is catalyze healing.
Leah 34:54
Okay, but let's just take a moment to reflect on that because you're telling me that you've had patients that have had wounds for nine and ten years that have been unable to work and you've changed their lives for them. Well, how do you feel about that? What is that like to hear that?
Megan 35:10
It's incredibly special. Sometimes I don't think we let it sink in, because it's the next person who needs our help. It's always that moving forward to the next thing, the next human to support. But what we're trying to do in this intentional step is with our storyteller, bringing those stories out, because we like to hear them, we don't need to hear them. It's the people in their same position that need to hear it. And regardless of whether or not they go with our product, they need to know that chronic and non-healing wounds are a problem. They need to get support from healthcare professionals, they will struggle and probably not be successful to heal on their own, driving people to that definitive care is what's going to help in general, and our product is a piece of that puzzle.
Leah 36:10
Okay, well, as we start to wrap up here, I like to end on a couple of questions. You're the founder of NanoTess, as you're writing the story for your company, you're doing more of it, as I'm hearing. How do you hope the story for NanoTess goes?
Megan 36:24
I hope that as a community, we think about wound care and skin health, as something that we can talk about openly. I hope that we create that environment where storytelling can be a positive indicator for creating community and, and belongingness. And I hope that our product plays a pivotal role in helping families, healthcare providers, and patients heal. And in every walk of life and every community, not just mainstream, acute care hospitals, long term care, like senior’s homes, but in indigenous communities, on reserve, individuals who are doing care after having a spinal cord injury, or in an elderly individual who chooses to live independently in their home. We want to have all individuals represented and really live out our social purpose to leave no one behind. And if we succeed in that, then I think we've accomplished the first part of the answer have, we’ve built the community that's going to tackle this problem, given it a tool to help enable it. But where I hope we are is that we've created, accessible and affordable product that brings community together.
Leah 37:58
And as the founder and CEO of this company, how do you hope your personal story goes?
Megan 38:04
I am so happy with where I have been. I think looking back, I'm at this really fun stage actually, a little pivot here. I am teaching my new emerging leaders, leadership skills, and I'm delegating leadership responsibilities to new leaders. And watching them, hearing their comments, hearing their questions, and seeing their growth. All of a sudden, I was transported back in time to say, that was me. And now look at where I am and how a problem that they’re tackling feels like it's a Goliath of a problem. It's so simple. But it's only simple because it's not an effing first time for me anymore. So where I hope I go is I hope I look back again in another two years and another four years and say, wow, I've grown so much I've learned so much. And I'm a better leader because of this experience. And I'm able to empower others to start their own leadership journeys, and build their leadership practice. At the end of the day, what we do in the world is we deal with people. And regardless of role, regardless of responsibility, people are going to be a part of it in some way or another. And to know how to lead and know how to interact matters a lot. If I can give my team and give each individual the opportunity to take that skill with them. Hopefully they will always stay at NanoTess, and at the end of the day, I know that will benefit in their career having the opportunity to learn what I've only learned trial by fire. They're learning it that way too. But they have me as a coach and a champion. So I hope I feel that way again, years to come.
Leah 40:01
Megan, thank you for this.
Megan 40:02
It was great. Thank you for having me
Leah 40:04
You bet.
Leah 40:12
As the lead investor in Thin Air Labs - Fund One, Sandstone Asset Management believes in building the commons through innovative founders who are creating meaningful, positive impact, both locally and globally. Sandstone is doing just that by backing the next generation of emerging entrepreneurs. Picture this, a founder start-up goes from idea to international impact supported by strategic investors who believed in their vision. That's the power of Sandstone's approach. Sandstone doesn't just manage wealth, they cultivate it, supporting founders at all stages. Visit sandstoneam.com to learn how sandstone builds legacies that last.Leah 40:01
Calgary is a city of innovative companies, ideas, and talent. The Opportunity Calgary Investment Fund is investing in Calgary's future by finding, fueling, and fostering innovation to build a diverse and resilient economy. Find out more at opportunitycalgary.com.
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Join host Leah Sarich as we hear about Kyle Friedman’s entrepreneurial journey to success with his payment platform Quickly. Kyle makes it clear that there’s no linear path to success in business, but when you have a strong belief in yourself and the possible, great things can happen. Listeners will be inspired by Kyle’s resourcefulness and sheer audacity when it comes to following intuition. He’s also a great example of how to maintain a fierce commitment to family while running a business. He shares advice and wisdom on how to balance family life with entrepreneurial aspirations and finding the right community to help you through it all.
From discovering his entrepreneurial roots in small-town New Brunswick to growing a company he put together in an afternoon into one of the largest painting companies in the country, Kyle’s tale is about determination and a willingness to keep trying. He shares examples of his ideas that failed and how he found the courage to keep trying until he created a product that fit the market, even if it meant starting over.
Kyle also shares his biggest secret to success—creating a boundary between work and home and protecting his time to keep family a priority. Busy entrepreneurs will hear how finding a safe space with other business owners can help provide a safe space to celebrate success and discuss fear and doubt with like-minded people rather than bringing all your business trouble home. Whether you’re new to starting a business or have been a Founder for decades, there are valuable lessons to be learned inside this episode!
About Kyle Friedman
Kyle Friedman is a seasoned entrepreneur with over a decade of experience at the helm of innovative ventures. As the Co-Founder and CEO of Quickly Technologies Inc., Canada's foremost leader in Earned Revenue Access, he's pioneering a tech platform that empowers businesses to tap into their earned revenue on demand, fuelling their growth and efficiency.
Kyle's entrepreneurial journey spans diverse industries, including service, education, product procurement, and technology. His reputation for driving innovation, providing visionary leadership, and achieving remarkable growth is underscored by Zoom Painting's recognition as the 86th fastest-growing company in Canada in 2019.
Beyond business success, Kyle is an active member of the Entrepreneurs' Organization, where he's held the role of forum chair for the Calgary chapter. He's also lent his expertise to numerous Canadian non-profit organizations. Passionate about harnessing entrepreneurship and technology for positive social impact, Kyle is committed to making a difference in the world through his work.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Entrepreneurs’ Organization--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Kyle Friedman:
Website: QuicklyLinkedIn: kylemclaughlinfriedmanInstagram: @helloquickly--
Transcript
Kyle 00:03
If I'm ever like, unsure or questioning myself, and I'm kind of in this like point of like weakness, like a low I, like, made a deal with myself a long time ago that I won't make a decision, so I just keep going with whatever decision I made before, because I think that I was probably in a better space when I made it.
Leah 00:23
Hi, thanks for being here. And welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more Founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems. And they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So why would they do this? Let's find out. Joining me in studio today is Kyle Friedman, Co-Founder and CEO of Quickly, an early payment platform that ensures businesses can pay their vendors sooner while they maintain their working capital. Hey, Kyle, thanks for being here.
Kyle 01:20
Yeah, you have a beautiful voice.
Leah 01:22
Thank you. I'm in my happy place here in the studio. Thanks for sharing it with me. So good of you to be here. So as we do with all of these conversations, we kind of go way back to the beginning and go, when did you start thinking about being an entrepreneur? I know for you, it was very early days.
Kyle 01:36
Yea, it definitely was. I think I was an entrepreneur all my life.
Leah 01:39
No kidding.
Kyle 01:40
Yeah, I grew up in New Brunswick. I come from a very entrepreneurial family. My father was in the video game industry with my mother, and so they were a power couple, and she was great with finance, and he was great with vision and ideas. So I grew up seeing it. Being a part of it, the positives and the negatives of that type of lifestyle. And so I think it was imprinted in me in a very young age, you know, when we'll tell you, you could do anything. Maybe you don't believe it, you could do anything. I definitely believed it, and still do. I'm a big preacher of that to my children and yeah. So entrepreneurial spirit started early, but I grew up in New Brunswick. It was a very, kind of poor area. There just wasn't a ton of, like, you know, growth and opportunity in the economy. So you kind of figured out how to make money however you needed to. So we would, like, do, like Christmas wreaths and like pick the trees for it, or dig clams or hay bales or whatever it was to make money when we were, like, pretty young. So, that was kind of how it started to really understand that, you know, I could be in control of my income, I guess is where it started. And then passion and all those things came later.
Leah 02:59
Came later. Amazing. I mean, we'll get to Quickly in a minute, but first before Quickly, you had a painting business, right? Yeah, tell me a little bit about that, because that actually kind of went very well for you, didn't it?
Kyle 03:08
Yeah, it went really well. So I went to school for audio engineering, music production, and basically went to view this apartment. It was like 10 o'clock at night, and that was the only appointment I could get. So I went there, show up, and the guy's painting it, and he's like, Oh yeah, it's like, so busy. And I'm like, Oh, this is a sweet apartment. And he's like, Yeah, but you know, he's like, painting, and I'm like, Well, why are you doing that? And like, why are we seeing it so late? And he's like, Well, you know, we're just so busy and we don't have people to do it. Like, if you had a painting company, you could make a pile of money. And I was like, I have a painting company. I didn't, but I didn't, you know, I mean, like, I knew how to do things, so I figured I could figure it out. And he's like, Oh, that's so great, you know, but you were giving out the contracts and everything I could get you into the office, but, like, we're doing it all right now. And I was like, well, I could come tomorrow. And he's like, Sure, I'll book you in. So they booked me in.
Leah 04:00
Okay, so hang on, let me just stop you for a second. Are you telling me that this guy is like, oh, man, if you had a painting business and you didn't have one, no, and you were like, Yeah, I got that.
Kyle 04:10
Well, I mean, I did, like, I grew up being able to do all sorts of things. I knew how to paint.
Leah 04:12
Yea, but that's it?
Kyle 04:13
Yeah, exactly. So I showed up there, and they were like, Oh, it's so great. Yeah, it sounds wonderful. But like, you have to, actually, yes, be a business. You have to have, you know, workers compensation, you have to be incorporated, you have to have insurance. And they're like, this so good, like, you know, we're giving all the contracts away now, but next year, you know, you would be a shoe-in for it. And I was like, Well, why don't you give me till noon? Because this was, like, nine when they opened, and if I can't put it together, then, then, so be it. But if I can, then, you know, I'd like to do this. And they were like, okay, and I got out and figured it all out within a matter of hours. And, yeah, reach back out to them. And then they gave me a bunch of contracts. I was killing properties. They're like the boardwalk of the East Coast. And then instantly, I had a painting company.
Leah 05:12
And which you created in a matter of hours.
Kyle 05:15
Yeah, exactly, out of thin air. Nice one. So, yeah, so I had this company, and then it's like, Okay, I'm going to college to study music. The hours are intense. It's in the music industry, your recording albums at night, all this stuff. And then now I'm suddenly painting these apartments on the side. So I have no employees, I have nothing. So, I started, like, painting them myself, and then it started snowballing a bit. I'm like, getting more and more. And the thing about New Brunswick is it's poor. As I mentioned, there's tons of people renting. This was like a city that's built on the universities. So there's like 4500 new people coming every year, and these people are, like, dashing on their apartments, like mid-year when they can't afford them. And there's a rule, like a law, because there's a Rentalsman hat's like a governing body for rentals to be able to give people the rights, and essentially, one of the rules is that if someone moves out, it has to be repainted. So I was repainting the same units, like, two times a year. So, it got fairly busy because I was pretty performant. So then I'm, like, going to school. All my friends are now starting to paint places with me, but that's how it kind of all kicked off.
Leah 06:20
That's incredible. Okay, so tell me where that painting business is at now?
Kyle 06:25
I had that business going, and then I decided to move out west to Calgary and pursue music. And then I got to Calgary and realized there wasn't much of a music scene at that time. I had no idea. So, really, that kind of evaporated fairly quickly, and I realized, okay, what am I going to do? And I'm going to paint. I incorporated the business at that time because before, it was actually running as a kind of sole proprietorship. So to say, yeah, that's how I expanded up so quick, if anyone's listening and checking on things, and kind of went for it. So decided to build up this painting business that was focused on new homes, and I scaled that up over the years to come, built it into the 86th fastest growing company in Canada by 2019 and then by 2021, it was Sherwin Williams’ largest Canadian customer in the new home industry.
Leah 07:22
That's incredible.
Kyle 07:28
Yeah. So it was a real success story in the painting industry, which is pretty funny, but it really like is what kind of brought me into the business that I'm in today. It really kind of opened my eyes to the challenges that you have as a independent contractor, subcontractor, so to say. But this painting company, I was always trying to get away from it before then, I thought I was going to do something cool, like in music. I created an online school for music production. I like did all these different things. I had a restoration company and a construction company and all these things. But this painting company just kept, kind of like growing off the side of my desk, and growing in 2016 is when I put all my energy into it. And I was like, I can make this cool. So I could be rambling, but
Leah 08:08
Anyway, that's what the bottom line is. Is that that painting company did incredibly well?
Klye 08:13
Yeah, it did incredibly well. And it got to the point of where it had many staff and operated across many provinces and in many cities, and I got to go to the next life cycle of bringing in a president and a whole team to be able to kind of manage and grow this entity. And they're still growing and operating today independently, without me, while I'm focused on Quickly. Okay, so
Leah 08:38
What did you learn about getting that, that business off the ground that informed how you started to think about Quickly?
Klye 08:45
I think it's all the different businesses that I formed, right? There were, like, little snippets that got applied to quickly. But essentially, you know that business, if I really fall into it or kind of like, think about how I grew it, and what it was, it was really cheap. It was a low-cost of investment that could get an ROI. So essentially, I could start selling before I really had invested any money. And that theme carried true to Quickly in all my businesses to come is like, you know, an MVP approach, a minimum viable product. What's the cheapest way that I can test my assumptions? And usually, the big assumption is, like, is there a product market fit? Will people buy my services or buy my widget? And I'm a big believer in, you know, how can I prove that without really putting a ton of investment into it? So that was really successful with quickly, because I was able to start transacting and executing the business before we really even had anything
Leah 09:46
Cool. Okay, so then tell me what is Quickly right today?
Kyle 09:50
Yeah. So, great question. So what Quickly is today? Well, what Quickly was supposed to be, okay, was the first invoicing technology that would make it so you could get paid instantly when you send an invoice. And, like, it sounded so cool, sounded so awesome, but incredibly difficult. Every time someone has an invoice to be able to, like, get them this capital, was just like the concept was this big lending product. What we realized, Amar and myself, later on, was that what we actually built, which is much better, is an early payment technology. So we flipped the whole thing on the head. So, instead of making it so someone can send an invoice and get paid today, we made it so that a company can offer early payment at a discount to all the companies that work for them. And that was like the beautiful realization, and that's what we do.
Leah 10:41
Amazing. And really, you had to get a big lending partner, didn't you? To really get that off the ground?
Kyle 10:47
Yup, we did. We're partnered with the Alberta Treasury branch. So ATB, great company. Love to work with them.
Leah 10:52
Sponsor of this podcast, just full transparency.
Kyle 10:56
Okay, fantastic. Yeah. So, yeah, they're fantastic. I had no idea. But we're with ATB, they've been super helpful. And essentially, we needed a banking partner to help us facilitate these transactions. Because what we learned was that companies why this hasn't really been successful in the past, or isn't just, you know, a big thing is everyone's kind of in the same boat of this cash flow trap. One company is waiting to be paid, and that's causing them to, you know, not be able to pay the other company. So we had to come in with the capital to be able to facilitate these transactions. So essentially, ATB came in to help us to be able to offer early payment at a discount, even when a company doesn't have the capital to do it themselves.
Leah 11:42
So, I mean, we'll talk a little bit more about impact, but just right now, while we're thinking about it, what does that mean for some of these small businesses when they can do this?
Kyle 11:50
Well, it's huge. It's almost like thinking about, like operating with handcuffs, or like, like running with handcuffs, or your shoes, like tied together, or whatever it might be, or, you know, swimming, holding your breath. It's just really difficult. You can still do it, but it's very challenging. So once you add capital into the mix, and essentially not a lending product like actually money that you've earned, and you give access to that, it just takes those shackles off, and a company can grow. And what we learned was that that's what they want to do. They take the money, and they grow their business. So a service company maybe has like one truck and then goes to five or 10, or maybe they need to hire employees, or manufacturing company needs to buy more materials at a discount, be more profitable, or whatever it might be. So we see these time after time again success stories of companies that are able to really grow, faster, bigger, but sustainably. And it really just gives them kind of like, instead of waiting so many years to be able to achieve and build the war chest that you need to do this, they're able to kind of get there a bit quicker.
Leah 13:07
So, there it is. I love it. I love it. Okay, so I remember when you guys had, like, one person working out of the Thin Air Labs space, and now you've got, like, a whole team. So how many employees do you have now?
Kyle 13:18
I think there's 12 of us. One fantastic intern, Samir, last day, congratulations.
Leah 13:25
Congratulations. Yeah, that's incredible. Wow. So look at you guys go. So, in every conversation that we have here, as we're talking about the building of these companies, these ventures, every Founder has a story about this one sort of pivotal moment, this do or die moment where you just really weren't sure how things were going to go. If you're thinking about that for you and for Quickly, does a certain moment come to mind? Can, is there a do or die story you can tell me?
Kyle 13:49
So you tipped me off on this question and I gave it some good thoughts. It's actually the only thing that I thought about, because I was like, oh, there's so many, how do I answer this? And it really comes down to, I'm just going to be… we were successful out of the gate, and we were big believers in what we were doing. It was like, one of the biggest problems that I've dealt with and all of my peers, and we had so much support of people like, being like, wow, this is incredible. But in the eyes of the investors, when we went to raise capital, it was the opposite. It was like, this won't work. There's too much risk associated to it. This is not like a normal business model. We only want SaaS-based revenue that's predictable, not transaction-based. Like, Oh, how are you going to put together? You know, debt facilities as well as equity, how will the funds be used? It was just thing after thing. And then it was like, Okay, we got through all that. So it was like, okay, great, write this down. Now I'm going to solve these things. Because that's like, what I do. I ask questions, and then I listen, and then I solve it, and then I come back, and it's like, Oh, wow. Like. This is perfect, but it was never perfect. It was always like something else. And then we were like, oh my god, like this is so discouraging. And it was like, Are we ever gonna be successful? Because it's a capital-intensive business, so we really questioned it, and the tipping point was when we gave up on the market. We gave up on the venture capital route. And most VCs, except for Thin Air Labs—was very instrumental, they were a believer. And they follow the shoot bullets, launch cannons, as do we. So they give a small check to go. And that was amazing. And we put our head down and just decide to focus on the business, and we let it all go, focused on it, and the success just started to catch up and snowball, and the story started to become a bit infectious. Once we were seeing all of these results, it started to become a lot easier to raise. We had the right time in the market. We proved the product market fit, and so on. So it wasn't just a good idea anymore. And then those smaller checks turned into bigger checks, and then other checks started to come and so on. And we were able to close that real serious seed venture capital-backed raise.
Leah 16:18
So, let's just dig into that a little bit, because, I mean, this is one of the reasons that the subtitle of this podcast is, why would you do this? It's because I find that amazing, that when you're hearing no over and over and over again, this doesn't make sense. It's not going to work. I mean, how do you decide to just keep going?
Kyle 16:36
It’s just persistence. It's like what we are doing, I think is going to be as impactful as credit cards. I think that most companies will offer some sort of early payment to their supply chain, and Quickly will be like a Coca-Cola or a Pepsi, and others will come. And I think it will be like that. I think this will be a basic requirement and offering, because net payment terms are challenging. The idea of executing a service or selling goods and waiting to be paid is difficult, right? You know, in the service world, with consumers and all these things like, you know, terms aren't really a thing. You pay for stuff when you want it, but somehow in B2B, it's the opposite. So just the will of wanting to solve, you know, such a big problem, and knowing that like this is so valuable and important really kept us going. And if I'm ever like, unsure or questioning myself, and I'm kind of in this like point of like weakness, like a low I, like, made a deal with myself a long time ago that I won't make a decision, so I just keep going with whatever decision I made before, because I think that I was probably in a better space when I made it. And then as time passes and I can get into that better headspace, I can then decide if it's different. So there was a bit of just, like, well, this what we decide to do, so we're just gonna get it done.
Leah 18:06
So, how did you even learn to trust that initial instinct when you are feeling that low? Like, that seems like a pretty hard thing to do.
Kyle 18:15
I'm a huge introvert, so big thinker. I've done a ton of self-work. I was a really nervous child. I've really, like, had to, like, come up with my tools to be able to be, not even successful, just like, like, capable of executing life. And they've served me really well. Maybe I matured at a really young age, or whatever it might be from these but I really got to explore myself and my being and learn to come to terms with who I am, and then to really, like go beyond that. So I'm not really sure. It's just been a lot of.
Leah 18:55
But you figured it out at an early age. That's incredible. Well, it sounds like that all really serves you well as an entrepreneur.
Kyle 19:03
And husband and father.
Leah 19:05
Oh, this leads us to my next question.
Leah 19:10
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Leah 19:39
Being an entrepreneur, as you said, has a lot of highs and a lot of lows. So how does that factor into your personal life?
Kyle 19:40
Yeah, well, the highs and lows. Another selfless plug: I've been a member of the Entrepreneurs Organization so EO, it's one of the largest collectives of CEOs, a nonprofit, in the world, where everyone is is working on kind of three foundational pillars, their self, their business and their family. And there's a non-soliciting rule. So it's a very safe space. So the Entrepreneurs Organization and my forum, my smaller group of peers that that I get to kind of unpack all of this stuff with, so it's not just me. They give me a safe space to kind of talk about the challenges or the fears and celebrate the successes, and then I just don't have to bring it home to my family as much. I have a place to question things, because questioning things in front of everybody isn't always the best. Sometimes you got to be, you know, decisive, and you need to be happy and confident and different things, but we all go through moments of weakness or or questioning and it's great to have a place where I can do that, where it's accepted. And that's really been beneficial to my family, I think, and especially my relationship with my wife. So
Leah 21:00
What you're saying is that you have a support network outside of your family unit where you can really chew on some of these big ideas and issues and strategies and problems
Kyle 21:11
100% Yeah.
Leah 21:12
That seems essential.
Kyle 21:14
I think, yeah, it really is, too, because, like, even, like, your family, you know, it's okay, it's the business. So then it's like, well, do I really want to have these moments in front of employees or executives or whatever it might be, I've built that safe space and cultivated that together. I didn't build it. We built it. Amar, my Co-Founder, and I, so that's like, really special to have that. So to be able to build out. So that's, like, very important to me, because, like, it is like that, and I have that safe space with my wife 100%, as as we all do, or as we all should. But it doesn't mean I need to bounce work stuff off of that. Like, can't some things be sacred?
Leah 22:01
And when it comes to just the day-to-day life of you, and I know you've got what, three kids, right? Yeah, that's amazing. Do you think about balance and or is it just like you protect your time? Like, how do you actually put it together? Like, your life when it comes to being an entrepreneur and a guy with three kids?
Kyle 22:18
Yeah, good question. Well, I'm thinking about it right now. I would say, protect my time. I think I'm almost in like an autopilot type thing when it comes to it. One of the big catalysts to my success was actually when we had Olivia, my first, and it was just me coming to terms being like, I don't want to be, can I swear on here?
Leah 22:42
Of course.
Kyle 22:43
Yeah, I don't want to be a shitty dad, yeah, I don't want to be like an absent father or anything like that. So I was like, I'm gonna stop work, you know, and be home for dinner, yeah? And I'm not gonna work on the weekends. And this was crazy, because I was like, building that, that big painting business and all the other ones. And it was like, I just like, did it. And what happened was, where I see most entrepreneurs and company owners and stuff get stuck, is like they're building a business, and then it's like they found product market fit. It's like, successful, but then they have to, like, get it to a point. I always build bootstrap businesses, but to make enough, you know, money that they can hire teams of people, and then that's like a first hurdle. The next biggest hurdle is, like, making it so that it makes enough money that you cannot work and work on the business, and a lot of people get stuck at that. So by having a child and committing to the non-like, being a workaholic, like, like I always said, like, I didn't do anything special. I just worked 20 years and 10 so, like, yeah, you want to go out and do that, you can sacrifice your 20s, and you'll have, you know, I had in the 30s or whatever, right? It's just choice. And then, you know, move to 80 hours a week, and you'll see. But anyway, so the the change of that, like, really made me, you know, not work harder, work smarter. And I had to, like, figure out, okay, how am I going to balance and get it all done? And then I feel like I figured that out then, and it just kind of like, flowed over because, like, that's, like, something I keep sacred, like, I'm not going to be a shitty Dad, I'm going to be there, I'm not going to be a shitty husband, I'm going to be there. And now it's really like, well, I don't want to be a shitty son and so on. Like, the relationships you have with friends.
Leah 24:25
And they’re important to you, so you want to protect the.
Kyle 24:27
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, we've talked with a lot of Founders on this podcast about that, being really mindful about how you spend your time, and you see these patterns emerge. And one of the patterns that I see is that if Founders don't make a conscious effort to make that choice to protect relationships, then they often get more burnt out more quickly, and they just don't have that support that they need to do this very hard work.
Kyle 24:52
Totally. Yeah. It is so easy to get caught up in everything. There's endless work like you'll never. Really be complete. So it's very easy to just get sucked into all of it, and then the next thing you know, you know, your battery is completely drained. You have no tools or idea of of how to recharge or fill it. And you're working, you know, 10-15, hours a day, but your productivity is like 30 minutes, right? Which, is like, that's not good for anybody. I'd rather work 30 minutes and have that full productivity versus 10 hours of the same.
Leah 25:26
I understand it completely. That's how I worked half-time in television for eight years. I was, I did eight hours and four that's what I did. I get it. I get it. Okay, so we've talked about how, of course, challenging being a Founder can be, but how wonderful is it? What do you love about being a Founder?
Kyle 25:42
When you're successful with the company and kind of like, get it to a place, it's just so rewarding to see, like, the impact that you can have on people or an industry, or whatever it might be, the time you can get with your family, the time you can get with friends like that, freedom and autonomy, the real ability, regardless of if you have, you know, the money or the time, because like that, stuff will come and not necessarily tied to being a Founder or the impact, because that comes to is being able to work on the things that inspire you. And that's like the earliest reward, probably the one I would recommend to get the most excited about, because that's like the, you know, the one at your disposal in the beginning, and the other ones are kind of like a product or an outcome of you being in your happy place and solving something.
Leah 26:33
You mentioned it briefly right there, which was impact. And as you know, at Thin Air Labs, we're very intentional about creating meaningful human impact. So when you think about impact, when it comes to what you're doing, it Quickly, how do you think about it?
Kyle 26:46
I've thought about it in a lot of different ways, but what I'm starting to see is almost the impact of the companies that are receiving the early payments, that are having this type of freedom, flexibility, autonomy and access, and the real, like, measurable impact was when we started, like, really diving through, like, what's going on in your business. So we are just breaking 500 companies on the platform, super exciting. So, like, one individual story is a company that came on with Quickly. They had 20 employees in a matter of, like, eight months or sub one year, they went to 100 employees, open, like, two facility shops. They're, like a huge contender to take market share within their industry, but just like, massive impact. And that's like one company, right? So, these stories, these changes that are happening, they're pretty special, you know, and kind of seeing, like, Okay, I like, I've been there, and you have a solution, and you're not there. That's really, really cool to see.
Leah 27:50
Yeah, that's amazing because that's one story. And if you've got 500, you know, on the platform, there's 500 of those stories, totally.
Kyle 27:58
Yeah, and that's what we're trying to do, is really talk to them, release little snippets and understand, oh, yeah, we're huge on communicating to our customers, if you think about it, on the other side too, like we have one company that's been a fantastic believer of what we're doing, early adopter. They're, you know, going close to a year on the platform or longer now, and you know, they're set out to save a couple $100,000 in early payments by offering people what they want. So it's like, you know, it's really a win-win on both sides. And really kind of like teaching people, you know that this solution is right for everybody, and by doing the right thing and offering what your trades and service providers and suppliers want, you can also have like, a great success story as well.
Leah 28:47
I love it, all right? Well, I'm having these conversations. I end on two very typical questions each time. And so this is the first one. You're the Founder of Quickly you're writing the story for your company. How do you hope the story for Quickly goes?
Kyle 29:02
We're building a company full of owners. So each employee is an equity holder. We have investors that are equity holders. They're believers in our purpose, in our mission, in what we're doing, at the biggest degree, because they are investing their money or their time, and time is the most valuable commodity, so seeing a success story where they win is much bigger than almost anything else, right? Like there's some vanity elements to other stuff, like being able to see some big brand or be synonymous with early payments, but really it's like if I can create, or if we can create, Amar and myself, because it's not just one person. All of these winners along the way that were the believers, that were the actual ones that could make this happen that will be pretty special, so.
Leah 30:01
Okay and then, as a Founder, you're the Co-Founder of this company, how do you hope your own personal story goes as an entrepreneur, as a Founder?
Kyle 30:09
I want to be a good dad and a good husband. So we had our third child recently, Banks. He's like 14 months. I always say you can't talk in months so, but he's not quite a year. He's two months older. My reasoning for having that was us being able to stay kind of in this phase of having kids and being in this part of our life. So I think, like the big success and everything for us will be being able to have that next chapter together as a family and everything. So I hope that answered the question that kind of like blanked.
Leah 30:45
No, no, no. I love it. It's obvious to me that when you think of yourself as a Founder, it's not just you, it's you and your family. You think of it as a whole and that's what you want to protect and celebrate moving forward.
Kyle 30:57
Yea, and, I mean, like looking back, right? I want to make sure, like we put everything into it. We put our all. But you know, as I was saying, that I can be proud of the Founder, the Co-Founder, the CEO, the husband, the dad, like all of it. So it's not like the one thing of my life. There's many things to my life. I just want to be proud of how I executed them.
Leah 31:22
And executed all of them.
Kyle 31:25
All of them.
Leah 31:26
Yeah, that's amazing. Kyle. Thank you so much for this conversation.
Kyle 31:28
Yeah, it was great. It was nice.
Leah 31:38
As the lead investor in Thin Air Labs - Fund One, Sandstone Asset Management believes in building the commons through innovative Founders who are creating meaningful, positive impact, both locally and globally. Sandstone is doing just that by backing the next generation of emerging entrepreneurs. Picture this, a Founder start-up goes from idea to international impact supported by strategic investors who believed in their vision. That's the power of Sandstone's approach. Sandstone doesn't just manage wealth, they cultivate it, supporting Founders at all stages. Visit sandstoneam.com to learn how sandstone builds legacies that last.
Leah 32:21
The Opportunity Calgary Investment Fund finds, fuels, and fosters opportunities in sectors like aerospace, agribusiness and tech, creating a resilient and diverse economy, attracting world class talent, and solidifying Calgary as a launch pad for innovators. Discover more at www.opportunitycalgary.com
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Chenny Xia is a serial entrepreneur and advocate for health and gender equity.
As the CEO of Gotcare, she is transforming how healthcare in the home is delivered regardless of your postal code, including service to over 100 remote communities. Having scaled rapidly across the country, Gotcare has been recently named one of Canada's fastest-growing companies in 2023 by The Globe and Mail.
Chenny also plays several advisory roles - she was previously a member of Ontario's Task Force on Women and The Economy, and currently is standardizing care economy impact metrics through 2X Global, and advancing women and non-binary-led entrepreneurship through Coralus (formerly SheEO).
Previously, she co-founded The Prosper Lab, Toronto’s first skills accelerator for people living in poverty.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Sandstone Asset ManagementOpportunity Calgary Investment FundCoralus--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Chenny Xia:
Website: gotcare.caFacebook: GotcareLinkedin: Chenny Xia--
Transcript
Chenny 00:02
And for me, I'm just like, How can I do this for 10 people? And then once I do it for 10 people, it's like, okay, now how can I do it for 100 people? And then once you do it for 100 people, it's like, okay, how can I do this for 1000 people? Starting with just how can I make a big difference for this end user that I'm looking to make a difference for? Even if it's just a handful of people. It's an evolutionary process.
Leah 00:26
Hi, thanks for being here and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many, and yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems and they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So, why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:12
Joining me today is Chenny Xia the Co-Founder and CEO of Gotcare, a company connecting homecare workers with the patients who need them. Specializing in bringing personalized data-driven and effective care from urban centers to rural locations across Canada. Chenny, thanks so much for being here today.
Chenny 01:29
Thanks for having me.
Leah 01:30
Awesome. Well, as you know, this is called The Founder Mindset. So, let's go back in time, and let's figure out when did you first become an entrepreneur? Am I right that you were just 16?
Chenny 01:41
Yeah, I was in university. So, I went to university when I was 15. And then I was working basically two minimum-wage jobs. I worked at a coffee shop in the morning to open and then I went to school, and then I napped, and then I worked at events in a hotel at night. And that's just like, wow, this is just not a reasonable existence.
Leah 02:06
Yeah, no kidding.
Chenny 02:08
I was a pretty accidental entrepreneur. At the time, I was studying design in school. And I thought, well, what if I just like, did some freelance work, instead of this, like, you know, minimum wage stuff. So, I basically helped design websites and apps while I went to school. And then I ended up getting a decent amount of work that way that I then brought on some of my classmates that I was studying with, and then lo and behold, it became a business. That was my first business.
Leah 02:43
And you laugh. And you think this is incredible, Chenny. And first of all, like, we have to just go back to what you said that you started university when you were 15.
Chenny 02:52
I had a non-ideal upbringing. And so I was very motivated to be a working human. Like now, it seems crazy, but at the time, it seemed totally reasonable. I like did all of the night school and summer school that one could take, because I was just obsessed with like, getting to work as soon as possible. Because I was like, this is what's going to make my family circumstance better. Anyway, so that was my motivation.
Leah 03:18
Clearly very motivating for you, obviously, that's incredible. Okay, so you had this product design business on the side there while you were just 16? How eventually did you get to Gotcare?
Chenny 03:29
So, I will say that first business ended up lasting me almost like nine years. Yeah, at our height, we were 16 people. We ended up doing a lot of work in health care. And so, specifically, ended up doing a lot of design thinking work and strategic design work for various different hospital networks, or homecare organizations as well. And it was kind of like, after years of making the same decks, giving advice on the same things, and sort of witnessing status quo really struggling to try something new. It was just sort of this like moment where I remember showering, I was just like, well, I can keep making decks on the same thing or I can just do the thing.
Leah 04:23
I can just do the thing.
Chenny 04:25
I could just do that. Yeah. And on one of my last initiatives, as you know, play more of like a consulting kind of context. It was for a consortium of various different home health providers across the country. My now co-founders were also consultants on that initiative, too. And we kind of looked at each other and we had a heart-to-heart conversation of like, what would it be like for us to literally fire ourselves from this consortium, and get their blessing to do this as a venture? Because there was clearly no appetite to transform how things could be done, it required like a total restructuring of operations, of sales, it was just asking too much for a large organization to change all at once, it was just actually easier to build as like a standalone thing. And that we could service them instead. So, yeah, we ended up getting their blessing. And, you know, actually, a couple of those executives ended up becoming angel investors in the business too.
Leah 05:28
Let's get everybody up to speed on what Gotcare actually does and what it's all about.
Chenny 05:33
Yeah, so at Gotcare, we deliver as much care as we can, in the home setting. We're all about prolonging independence, self-functioning, self-management, of chronic conditions, disabilities, recovering from whatever it is that you're recovering from, in the home setting. It's where people are comfortable, it's where people mostly prefer to receive their care. And also bringing in virtual supports and technology to personalize their experience and optimize safety as well.
Leah 06:06
Incredible. So, I have to ask, though, you're telling me how you and your co-founders, were just sort of thinking, you know, we could probably do this. But like, help me understand where you guys get the confidence to be just like, you know, what, we're just gonna do this ourselves. Like, this actually makes more sense for us just to do it ourselves. Where does that sort of confidence come from?
Chenny 06:25
Actually, at first of all, like, Who do we think we are, like, you know, these big gargantuan 1000’s of people company could totally do this better than us. And so we try to bring the thing that we do to like, the belly of the beast, so to speak, and try to get like, you know, we were like, oh, let's just do what it takes to get a major player to do this. And yeah, it's just change management, right? Like, at the end of the day is so hard. Like, especially when it's like, I like to say like, ideas are like puppies, you know, they're like, really sensitive, they're not good or bad, they just are. They need to be treated like puppies. Like, they're really delicate. And so the survival rate of like an idea like this, to actually succeed in a large enterprise. It's just, I mean, there's, I'm sure there's like, a lot you can read online about it, but it's just, it's just really low.
Leah 07:21
And yet, there's people have ideas all the time, but very few people actually activate those ideas and like, build a company around them. And yet, you guy’s did.
Chenny 07:30
I think that I would just make like, frankly, like a terrible employee.
Leah 07:36
Why is that? You gotta tell me why.
Chenny 07:39
I feel like if you've been an entrepreneur your entire life, and you know, and then you're supposed to not, like it's just, it's, I feel like when, if you choose the path of entrepreneurship, it's like, your default mode is like, Oh, I wonder if this could be a business.
Leah 07:56
So in fact, it is a mindset for you. It is really how you just approach the world.
Chenny 08:00
Yeah, pretty much.
Leah 08:0e
Yep. I love it. I love it. We wanted to talk a little bit in this podcast about what it's like, though, to be an entrepreneur, and to think like that all the time, and how it sort of affects your life. You know, the people in your life, how you live your life, that kind of thing? How does being an entrepreneur affect your personal life?
Chenny 08:22
It's more like what it doesn't affect. It impacts your friendships and people you choose to be in a relationship with, even the partner that you choose to have in life as well. Because it's a 24/7 thing, which comes with a lot of challenges. It's this crazy roller coaster, with some high-ups and a lot of low-lows. And surrounding yourself with people who you feel seen by is important. Building businesses like how long can your business survive for until it can like do hit its thing that it needs to do? Right, like so. Game of survival? I think it's really important to surround yourself with people who can really be there for you in that journey. And part of it is understanding where you're coming from and what it's like. So, yeah, so I end up having a lot of founder friends or friends who work at startups, and even my partner now, he's an entrepreneur himself too, which just makes things easier, because then that's like, Oh, I gotta do a thing like it. There's no need to explain anything. There's just a knowing about it. And I also think it's where you talk about your problems with the people that you love, because you're looking to be supported, like, being able to be understood, and that is important, too. Right? So, you don't feel alone. I think a lot of entrepreneurs feel really lonely. And so really being thoughtful about who you're surrounding yourself with so you aren't lonely. I think it's really important too.
Leah 10:00
You know, I agree with you, that's certainly a theme that's come up in, in a lot of previous episodes that it can be really lonely to be that entrepreneur and building something because a lot of people just don't get it. You know, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I started this podcast. Like, I'm like, why would you do this to yourself? You founder types? Like, it seems so hard.
Chenny 10:17
So, there's really no good reason on paper to do this. I just put in, I just Googled entrepreneur salary to give you an example. Okay. So, as of July 7, 2024, the average annual pay for an entrepreneur in Ontario is $41,964.
Leah 10:38
Wow.
Chenny 10:42
Yeah, right. It's, yes, of course, you have, like, your Bezos stories and stuff like that, but, but for the most part, you can make more money just working a tech job. You can't doing this. And so it's got to be motivated by something else?
Leah 11:01
For sure. I think we'll get into that in a little bit when we start talking about impact. But prior to that, I mean, you even told me that your dad was a bit concerned for you, you know, when you said like, I'm just gonna keep doing this entrepreneurial thing. And he's like, you're never gonna be an employee, are you?
Chenny 11:17
Like, are you sure? Are you sure you want effectively, like unstable employment where your whole life? But yeah, but there's also so much beauty in being able to have a container to do things differently, right? Like, I think the way that transformation happens is like, people who operate our status quo world, which is a wonder that everything still works, let's be honest, these days. It's like, they're doing such important work. That innovation is like a site of dusk thought most of the time, right? But yet, they need to run the thing, they need to run the thing that we all operate in today, it's really important function. So, then you have like an entrepreneur class, kind of like, on the sidelines being like, I'm gonna try to do my thing. But really, what you're doing is you're trying to build an alternative reality. But then people who are ensuring that status quo is held up, who can point to your alternative reality and be like, hey, look, look other people on my team. Look, there is another way to do something. They're doing it over there in their like, little microcosm, what if we brought some of that in? It requires both to really enable Systems Transformation.
Leah 12:33
But can we talk about the system that you're working in? I mean, the healthcare system, it is so slow to innovate in so many ways, and in many ways, when you could argue that it's quite broken right now, and at least very strained, does it not seem like almost untenable to actually try to make the change in that space?
Chenny 12:51
I think when you embark in a field where change is known to be hard, like healthcare, or education, you name it, right? You kind of have to be mindful about when you are listening and observing and adapting to what's happening. And also, when you kind of just have to put your blinders on a little bit and just do the thing. It's like, both at the same time. It's definitely a very challenging field to innovate in. But I also think that is where a lot of entrepreneurs are needed. Like, we don't need like another convenient way to like record a video.
Leah 13:35
I hear what you're saying, we really need innovation in healthcare. Yes.
Chenny 13:39
Yeah, and any of the other STEM fields that are quote-unquote, hard to innovate in.
Leah 13:44
Right, and so, I guess it comes back to that idea, like, it could be me. I could make this difference, I could actually build this future, to your point, this vision, this way of doing things that people can't see without my help.
Chenny 13:56
And for me, I'm just like, How can I do this for 10 people? And then once I do it for 10 people, it's like, okay, now how can I do it for 100 people? And then once you do it for 100 people, it's like, okay, how can I do this for 1000 people? Starting with just how can I make a big difference for this end user that I'm looking to make a difference for? Even if it's just a handful of people? It's an evolutionary process.
Leah 14:20
How did you learn to think like, one step at a time, and then we just grow and build on what we've done?
Chenny 14:25
Probably it’s because it's less overwhelming for my brain. It's like, what is within my control? I feel so overwhelmed. And I just like can't bring myself to take action because I don't know what to take action on. I think a lot of people get into that space, right? Where they're like, Oh, my God, this thing is so big, like, I don't know where to start. I don't know where to start. And yet the reality is like, it actually doesn't matter where you start. But the most important thing is that you just start and you start by like breaking it down into this one tangible action that you can take. Yeah, and like momentum creates momentum.
Leah 15:00
Absolutely, can you give me an example of that in the growth and evolution of Gotcare that one step at a time?
Chenny 15:07
Yeah, so, for example, we have this vision of being able to bring care to everyone in any rural community, regardless of where you live, you can have access to care, right? And you think about it from like, all of the factors that can go into the challenges of rural health delivery, often is coin like last-mile health delivery, you know, it's called last-mile delivery for recent right? People live two and a half hours away from their closest hospital, there are very few family doctors in rural communities, most of them are over the age of 65 and about to retire. You've got really challenging technology access issues, a lot of people don't have access to internet, you can't even get 3G access from their phone. There's just a lot of you know, you're socially you're more socially isolated from others in your community as well. So, there's like increased social loneliness and things like that. Like, there's a lot of challenges that go into rural health. And so for us, it was always well, how do we just start with one team? Like, where is there one health team? Doesn't matter what context and hospital, and family doctor’s office like? Literally any context, there must be a group out there, a small community of people out there who want the same things, and who have the same views have a good future for their community could look like as us like, me coming up with this thing with my team, we can't be the only team who has this idea. Right? Like there must be other teams who fit this way. And so it's just like, Okay, how do we find one team, who thinks this way and wants this thing to? And how do we just get in touch with them and talk about the thing? Like, it's kind of like that, instead of saying, Okay, well, gosh, what are all of the things I need to think about? Like, it's really just finding your people.
Leah 17:01
Find your people and build the thing, right?
Chenny 17:04
You can’t find the customer, then what are you building? Like, I really believe in co-creating and co-designing with your customer. It's like, as a startup, like you have some of the puzzle pieces, but they have the other puzzle pieces. And you gotta like put the pieces together, right? So yeah, huge advocate for co-design.
Leah 17:25
For co-design, that totally makes sense. That probably comes from your sort of product and design background, right?
Chenny 17:30
Yeah, yeah, I'm biased.
Leah 17:34
But maybe in a good way, for certainly building a venture, that's for sure. I ask every founder on this podcast, tell me about that one moment that do or die, or like sink or swim moment in the building of your venture, where you were like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to figure this out, or I don't know if this is going to work. You and I've talked about this in the past. Tell me a little bit about that moment for you. I understand it had to do with the start of the pandemic.
Chenny 18:00
Yeah, so, okay, for context, right before the pandemic, I was voluntold to be CEO because we were about to fundraise. And my co-founder is the one with a clinical background, like not me, right? So, here I am, probably like, five months into being CEO, COVID becomes a pandemic there's literally no instruction for any community care providers on what to do, what not to do. And I think we had like just under 600 patients at the time you know, people were like, what's gonna happen? No answer. At the same time, just for background context, I had purchased a house the fall before and had decided in that fall to gut the house and just remodelled a little bit as well. And so, like I was living in an Airbnb, but then because things got locked down I decided to move back into the house because you know, you can't do home renovation without supervising it a little bit and I was like, maybe we go fully locked down like you can't even go on the streets, like who knows. So, like moved into this completely unfinished house that our general contractor prioritized like making the toilet run, literally. I had like a mattress on the ground, on a drop she was like all this like plastic lining around it and like that was my one space where everything was clean and not covered in drywall powder. So, it was like chaotic in my environment and then chaotic in the company too. And there was this moment I was like, Okay, now what? Thankfully, I have a business coach through a community called Coralus, previously ShEO and she literally talked about the phone and walked me off the cliff every single day. And in the end, it was one of those moments where it's like, okay, you know, we don't have the information we need to make a decision. So, what are we going to do? So, my co-founders and I decided to call every single patient that we worked with, and ask them, what good and safe would mean and feel like for them, like, literally, we divided up the list into three groups, and we just called, all of us. And we just adapted for what they wanted. Of course, common themes came out, right? And that's when we also started to introduce more virtual cueing, virtual sequencing, things like that. So, more of the care could be handled virtually as opposed to all being in person at the time. And yeah, and kind of like true to our principles of how we operate the business, but you talk to you, like I remember talking to getting an investor's advice during this time, and they were like God, like, calling all these people like that, that doesn't feel sustainable. Like, that doesn’t feel like a good idea. But just in our hearts, we just felt like no, this is the right thing for us to do. It's the most on-brand thing for us to do as well. And actually, like I would say, that was really the start of our virtual care business was through that process. And so looking back now, what we were doing at the time was just like meets discovery, and we were, you know, again, my co-creating solutions with our patients.
Leah 21:13
That's unbelievable.
Leah 21:16
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Leah 21:29
So, essentially, you're running your company, you’re a brand new CEO, and you're running it from your bed.
Chenny 21:46
Yeah, yeah, with drywall powder all around me.
Leah 21:50
All around you.
Chenny 21:52
The shower wasn't ready, at that point. And so I had like, you know, like the wipes you get when you go camping? That was the vibe.
Leah 22:01
Unbelievable. I mean, how did you personally like manage that even like, how did you get through that?
Chenny 22:07
A lot of somatic practices.
Leah 22:10
What does that mean?
Chenny 22:12
For me, somatic practices are practices that involve your body, it’s about being in your body, and being able to process your stress and tension in a healthy way to get it out of your body. Ideally, I feel like if you don't have the somatic practices like you can't, it's just so hard to make it through moments like that without completely burning out, or like have, you know, getting sick, right? Like stress is the number one cause of illness. So, for me, that can look like a lot of different things. I practice a very specific type of yoga called Yin Yoga. I practice a very specific type of breathwork called Kundalini, just like different things like that. For everyone, it's a little different in terms of what works for you. But really, it's like, how can you release the tension and stress that your body is carrying?
Leah 23:00
No kidding?
Chenny 23:08
Even if it's like, do the thing every 15 minutes for a few days.
Leah 23:08
I bet. Just to get through it? I mean, how did you come to a place where you were like, I need to deal with this stress? I mean, actually, I know you told me a story where previously you were hospitalized because of stress. So you learned, yeah.
Chenny 23:22
Yeah. Really early on, actually, it was back with my consulting business at the time. Yeah.
Leah 23:25
Tell me about that. What happened then?
Chenny 23:29
I mean, I think I was going to school. And I think our team was like four people at that time. Constantly thinking about like, okay, who else do we need to bring on the team while doing project work, while finding more project work to do? And I didn't do anything somatically I didn't do any physical exercise, even really beyond like walking from point A to point B. Yeah. And then one day I woke up and when I rolled over in my bed, my kidney hit my ribcage, and I just like wailed, cause apparently that hurts a lot. Yeah, called 911 and then ended up in the hospital and they told me that my kidney was four times the size it should be and yeah, basically happened overnight. There was like no build-up to it. It just kind of happened overnight. I actually stayed in the hospital for just under six months.
Leah 24:25
And this was because of stress?
Chenny 24:25
That was the final yes, by the attending physician at the time. They were like there is nothing else that we could tie this to, so we believe it was stress-related. Okay, thanks.
Leah 24:46
Wow, that is unbelievable. So, this makes sense to me now. So, this really informed how you were going to be moving forward. You obviously learned how dangerous it can be and now you're very thoughtful about looking after yourself as a founder.
Chenny 25:00
I mean, I think the stories are all over the place, like one of my closest friends, she went through YC in the US, and towards the end of the program, she ended up being diagnosed with cancer. I think the stories just come up again and again and again. But effectively, like as an entrepreneur, you're putting your body through a lot of stress, and a lot of interpersonal challenges. Constantly, all the time, like, conflict is the name of the game. And so like, if you don't have healthy ways to deal with this, then yeah.
Leah 25:33
It can be really dangerous. So, good for you for having learned from that situation. And now you're very mindful about how you work and live as an entrepreneur, so good for you. What do you want people to understand about that? Who might be listening to this in terms of how they should stay safe if they decide to become an entrepreneur themselves?
Chenny 25:51
Yeah, I mean, maybe this is like a little too out there. But like, I feel like, as an entrepreneur, a lot of the times, there's a lot of signs everywhere. Like, there's signs, when you're in a meeting, someone says something, your teammate says something, you see something happen when you go to an on-site, like a customer on-site, like, there's just little cues and hints for your business everywhere, if you pay attention. And those like little things that you pick up on, I find are often the things that like really help accelerate your business. But if you're like totally tired and worn down, you actually can't listen for those signs. You can't even see them. Because you're so focused on your to-do list, like your version of your to-do list, you're so focused on what like what your brain thinks is needed, that all these other signs become really hard to pay attention to. It's not an emergent process as a result, like, it's not an adaptive process, creating a product or service, like the act of creation is a fluid process. Like it's, you know, it needs that kind of spaciousness to exist. And so, the question I would ask for entrepreneurs early in their journey is, what can I do in my life to create more capacity for emergence to come? As opposed to me having all the answers all the time, if that's just like, unreasonable?
Leah 27:34
I love that. Creating space for emergence. I like that. That's amazing. We've talked a lot about the stress and anxiety when it comes to being an entrepreneur. But obviously, there's so much that you love about it. Let's talk a little bit about the bits and bobs of being an entrepreneur that you absolutely love.
Chenny 27:51
Yeah, one of the things I love the most is just like the kind of jobs that we create for people. A lot of the time, you know, people join our team, and they're like, Wow, I've never seen a job posting like this before, like being able to deliver health in this way. Like how cool, especially with healthcare jobs, vacancy rates are extremely high right now, for good reason. And so creating viable, inspiring jobs that people like is part of the thing. Like really seeing people come alive, when you give them permission to be like, hey, care can be delivered in this way, like, go and just see them bring their gifts in action when they're just given that little bit of permission to like, think differently, and act differently is really, really cool to witness. Another part of it is we give our customers a facilitated space to dream. So, for example, I was meeting with a renal unit at a hospital. And they've done things the way they've done things for a long time. And so even just curating and facilitating space for them to be like, Oh, wow, like, yeah, we can do things differently. And hosting, like we host a lot of co-creation workshops, where we bring in patients or patient representatives who bring in clinicians, we bring in folks from our team, like technologists, we bring everyone together and we sort of, you know, prioritize the problem areas. And we say like, Hey, like, all of the solutions, we have Gotcare, they're like Lego pieces, you can kind of configure them the way that works for you. Like, let's just see what happens. And even just giving people the pen to sort of do that, seeing that moment where their creativity is engaged. They're like, Oh, well, what about this, what about that? Like, even being in that mode is just so beautiful to witness too. And like we will come away from that being like, wow, that was such a lovely thing to be a part of like. I think giving people that space to dream, like to really dream something new. It's a really privileged experience that entrepreneurs get to have.
Leah 29:52
No kidding. No kidding. That leads so nicely into our conversation about impact. Impact is really important to us here at Thin Air Labs and I know it's important to Gotcare too. When you think of impact, what does it mean for you and what you're creating it Gotcare?
Chenny 30:07
Impact comes from, well, in the case of specifically social impact, it comes from the ability to bridge gaps in care. Whether that's access to care, whether that's time to care, whether that's a location of care, type of care. Really, it's about enabling something that people want that they can’t get, for whatever reason. And yeah, and that can also mean, so for example, at Gotcare, we pay 15% more to our frontline staff who deliver care in homes, we pay about 15% more than our competitors do on average. And it's because we know that increased pay means increased care consistency, and increased care consistency means better patient outcomes. And so even making those decisions, I think, a lot of the time, when we think of impact, we don't really think about like, what is our theory of impact, like? What's our theory of transformation? Like, what do we think needs to happen in order for transformation to be true? So, for example, for us, it's creating a bigger pool of workers who are working in the home, that people can access. Having access to digital tools to enhance virtual care, access and safety, and then also being able to create better-paying jobs. So, people actually, you know, the retention issue and turnover issue is not so much of an issue, because in Communicare, in particular, turnover can be up to 40% to 70% a year, depending on what geography you're in. And like really having a point of view on, well, these are the levers that need to change, in order for families to have access to consistent care, in order for time to care to be at a reasonable pace, where you're not waiting weeks and weeks for care. And so having a point of view on like, what are the levers that will lead to that? And, but also changing those levers if you aren't seeing that as well, right? Like, it's really just your theory of transformation.
Leah 32:20
That's incredible.
Chenny 32:21
Being able to track it.
Leah 32:22
And being able to track it. Yeah, and make sure it's working. You've also spoken about wanting to see more social entrepreneurship like this in the world. And that's also very motivating for you. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Chenny 32:35
Yeah, I mean, I think social, like everyone knows what like, you know, what the typical venture scale at all costs, entrepreneurship path looks like, right? And unfortunately, there are just certain, especially social challenges where that type of growth model is not congruent with. And I think when you're a social entrepreneur, you think about your impact just as much as you think about profit. And so, it's really, you balance both at the same time. And a lot of investors, you know, even impact investors, like, there's a huge range, but a lot of them expect this 25x, 50x, I've even heard 100x return on their investment. And that's just not feasible when your mandate is increased health accessibility. It's just not the right problem to fit into that. And so as a result, you have this, you know, when you look at the portfolio of ventures globally, it's very clear that, you know, a lot of ventures solve this type of problem. And very few ventures solve a social problem, right? Like, it's just, just inherent. And I think that we don't really have a great means yet, of measuring impact in a way that investors and stakeholders can receive as a positive net benefit, in the same way that return on shareholder value can be clearly measured. And so like, yeah, there's like impact models and stuff like that, and blah, blah, blah, right? But like, at the end of the day, there isn't, you know, when the investor is still reporting on the return of their portfolio, they are typically reporting on financial return as their main thing, not the impact return. And so yeah, like it's, it's hard for us to value that thing as a result, in the way that it can be so that it is seen as equal.
Leah 34:51
Fair enough and you'd like to see that changed for sure. Makes sense. As we move to the end of this podcast, I want to ask you, you are the founder, you are writing the story for your company, for Gotcare. How do you hope the story for Gotcare goes?
Chenny 35:09
I mean, I think it's an emergent story. And I actually try to not hold the story too closely to my heart to have too much attachment for what that story is. For me, I like it to be like, Okay, I'm going to set an intention and then we're going to practice non-attachment. Where Gotcare is going is an intention is that we want to upskill and uplift community care workers across the country to play a larger role in healthcare delivery. Beyond just providing what we call traditional home care, working with family doctors working with hospitalists, working with specialists, working with family health teams, to be able to manage chronic conditions, disability, recovery, and more treatment options in the home setting. Because ultimately, that is where a lot of financial sustainability for programming can be found. It's much more convenient for families as well and involves the family caregiver in a much more cohesive way. And it takes advantage of the full breadth of the healthcare workforce that we have available to us, beyond just doctors and nurses, because we have crazy shortages that we're not going to fill in the next few years. And so in terms of how that becomes true like we are in the process, and we're totally emergent to that. We've partnered with hospitals, family health teams, and retirement homes, to sort of experiment with this in different ways with results and seeing results in different ways as well. But ultimately, there will need to be changes in regulation, changes in billing codes to facilitate this really at a much larger, sustainable scale, where it's much easier for companies to deliver care in this way. Yeah. And it's really like a collective journey, right? Like, it's not like we are a part of that frontier. But it's also us being in relationships with other organizations, who also want to see health care involved in that way.
Leah 37:25
That's incredible. And when you think of yourself as the founder of Gotcare, how do you hope your own story goes?
Chenny 37:33
I just hope to continue to have fun. You know, like, I think it's just really important to just keep having fun like that your job is fun. Yeah, because it can, it can be heavy, for sure. There's a lot of politics involved. There's a lot of change management involved. But yeah, like keeping things fun, holding things lightly, and I really subscribe to the servant leadership model. So, like a much more coaching-based model as opposed to like a dictator based model. And it's really beautiful to like see, like I said, to like, see our team expand and come alive on a lot of these initiatives.
Leah 38:17
And so you hope to just see more of that and keep it light. Wonderful. Chenny, thank you so much for this conversation.
Chenny 38:25
No worries.
Leah 38:35
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Leah 39:17
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In this episode of The Founder Mindset, we sit down with Nic Beique, Founder and CEO of Helcim, a payments company making waves in Canada and the U.S. Nic takes us on his entrepreneurial journey, from his early days of building websites at just 15 years old to overcoming obstacles like losing a key business partner. Nic guides us through the trials and tribulations entrepreneurs battle and why he wouldn't have it any other way.
Nic also shares his perspective on balancing work and family life, how he manages personal well-being amid the demands of running a company, and why he believes small businesses deserve better treatment from financial institutions. His approach to leadership, growth, and navigating the emotional rollercoaster of entrepreneurship will inspire anyone looking to start or scale their business.
About Nic Beique
Nic Beique is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Helcim, a payments company that makes getting paid faster, easier, and more affordable for businesses. Nic was the lead developer on the company's first software launch, Helcim Commerce. His recognitions for his contributions to the payment industry and tech economy in Calgary include winning the technology category as the EY Entrepreneur of the Year - Prairie region in 2018 and as a member of the Avenue Calgary Top 40 Under 40 Class of 2019.
Resources discussed in this episode:
TechCrunchThe VergeBetaKitShopifyThe Four Burners Theory—
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Nic Beique:
Website: www.helcim.comInstagram: @HelcimincTwitter: @HelcimFacebook: HelcimYouTube: @HelcimLinkedIn: HelcimLinkedIn: Nic Beique—
Transcript
Nic 00:02
You start making a list of like, what's problem we're trying to solve, and who can help us solve it, and who knows who. And then you just lose any fear of conflict or rejection or anything, and you just pick up the phone or start sending out emails and then one thing leads to another, and you start exploring. And I think you just do.
Leah 00:22
Hi, thanks for being here, and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more Founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet, they have the best stories. They're solving big problems and they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So, why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:12
Joining me in the studio today is Nic Beique, founder and CEO of Helcim, a payments company that helps Canadian and American businesses accept credit cards at affordable and transparent rates. Hey, Nic.
Nic 01:25
Hey, thanks for having me.
Leah 01:26
Thank you so much for being here. It's so great to have you in the studio, too.
Nic 01:29
Yeah, I got a tour of the Thin Air Labs that was pretty exciting.
Leah 01:32
Pretty cool, right?
Nic 01:34
It's cool to see just all these startups in Calgary, like, you know, trying to find their space, and then some of them growing into bigger ones, and it's exciting.
Leah 01:42
It really is exciting. It's so fun to see them right there and then see them grow up and mature and go out and leave the nest. It's wonderful.
Nic 01:49
If you think ten years ago, when I got into my first startup, there was so little in Calgary to the point where you would say, Oh, I'm gonna go in tech, or I'm gonna do my IT company and my tech company, or whatever was the case. People would look at you funny, like, it's like, no, you graduated, and then you went to oil and gas, and you got a good job starting, and that's what you did. And there's anything else, like, just made no sense.
Leah 02:11
Right? And I know this because I worked in television in this city for 20 years, and, you know, once I discovered the tech sector, I was like, Wait a second, guys, how come we didn't have these people on our show like all the time. They have the best stories. And I phoned up all my friends at all the other TV stations, and I was like, Did you guys know about this? And they were like, No. And I'm like, me either. So, I agree with you. I completely agree with you that it's really a sector that's coming alive right now.
Nic 02:36
Yeah, I remember looking up; this is about, probably, eight years ago, or something about what new stories were made from, like Alberta media on any kind of tech story. And we found three, like, literally three. And there was one on the smart board, like the smart. Like an OG Calgary company, yeah. There's one on Solium, which became Chairworks, yeah. And there was one on, like, the early rise of Benevity. And I was like, that was it? There's just, like–
Leah 03:03
Only the ones that became the unicorns, right? Yeah, well, we'll just have to create some more then.
Nic 03:07
Yeah, I think one thing that Calgary, or just Alberta, needs is that we don't have our own kind of media. And when I say media could be more newsletters or podcasts, or there isn't enough of it, that is kind of homegrown. Because if you think about it, like, you know, Silicon Valley, they have TechCrunch, they have, you know, like The Verge, they have so many things that surround that there's a bit of a self-serving element. It gets to amplify the stories of their homegrown industry, right? And even in Canada, you have maybe, like, BetaKit, but that's very Toronto-based, and we kind of get scrum the crumbs here, right? But Alberta really hasn't, you know, and it's good to see podcasts like this because we need, yeah, more local media that talks about local tech because, if not, like, you know, nobody's going to do it for us, right? We need to do, put a spotlight on these companies.
Leah 03:55
Agreed. I mean, that's one of the main reasons why we started a podcast like this and why Thin Air Labs hired a former journalist, you know, and created a role called head of story, right? So, we know we need that. So, yeah, thank you again for doing it, and that's why we're here today. So, why don't we go right back to the beginning? Ah, when did you first figure out that you wanted to be an entrepreneur? It started really early for you, didn't it?
Nic 04:16
Yeah. I mean, I was probably my first kind of start, I was 15 years old, and I started making websites. So, this is, like, the late 90s. I'm aging myself, but it was, like, at the time, everybody thought they needed a website. It was kind of like the.com bubble and down to things that we kind of take for granted now, but like, you would go, I would get my haircut at my barber, and then, you know, we get talking, and I would say, I make websites. He's like, Oh, well, can you make a website for me? I'll pay you a couple of 100 bucks, right? And you're like, Okay. And then the local gym and the local computer store. One of my first clients was I walked into those that are kind of Calgary based, they'll know, Memory Express Computer store, right? Yeah. I walked in; there was one location. I went up to one of the brothers or the owner, and I was like, your website is terrible. You have no e-commerce, and I'd love to build your website. And they actually hired me as a job, and this was in high school, so I kind of moved my classes around. I worked there in the afternoons for eight bucks an hour, and I started coding their website. So, that's kind of how I got my entrepreneurial bug.
Leah 05:20
Yeah, but I need to, like, pull on a string there, like, you walked into the store and was like, Hey, your website sucks. Let me fix it for you. Where did you get the moxie to do something like that?
Nic 05:30
I don't know. I just, I'm still fairly introverted, but I had enough confidence about, you know, the websites I was building, and it was a story I really liked, and I put the two and two together, and just, I don't know, I just got the guts to say it, and, you know, work there for, you know, during a period of time in high school, and then realized, like, ultimately, I like doing it on my own more, and kind of spun off. And that was probably the official forming of my first company, which was called Blue Sphere Graphics. I don't know why. Don't ask a 15-year-old, like, how they came up with a business name, but and that was a web design company, and that's really. I love the fact I fell in love with just being an entrepreneur and being able to, like, have that success, and at a time being so young, yet, you know, more established, you know, real business people, real small businesses owners, saying, Yeah, I'll write you a check if you do this for me. And I thought that was so cool. And it just kind of evolved into it. And I fell in love with just working for myself because I just felt like I could deliver on things, I had control, and something clicks where you just start thinking, like, I'll never work for anybody else, I'll just do this thing.
Leah 06:40
And then you touched on it briefly. But what is it that you love about just being your own boss and, you know, not having to report to anybody?
Nic 06:47
I think there's a couple of elements. There's just an element of control for better, for worse. It's funny, because, in one way, you have less control because you're kind of, you're hunting day to day to be able to feed yourself. And you know, you would think like a corporate structure where you get a, you know, a job, and work through a corporate ladder like would give you more or at least a clearer path, but you just feeling completely in control is a big thing. And the other thing was probably a little bit of a streak of anti-authority. I've never done well in school. I always skipped class. I always want to do my own thing. I really always struggle when somebody told me what to do. I just wanted to do it my way. And, you know, you mix those things together. And I think it's common. I think I think people look up to entrepreneurship, and yeah, because, I mean, you see the big success stories, and the hard work, and the impact it can make. But I think that the commonality, I think, with most entrepreneurs is that it doesn't feel like a choice for better or for worse. They're just geared in a certain way where they wouldn't be able to be effective. I admire somebody that can build a big, beautiful career in a, you know, in a fortune 500 like, I don't think I have what it takes to do that. So, I think it's just more about like being wired a certain way. And it's not about being better or worse. It's just being wired differently.
Leah 08:08
Right. It's not better or worse; it's just different. Yeah, to your point, having interviewed, you know, many Founders now, there is a common theme that runs through them, and you're right. I think they often say that phrase; I'm just wired a little differently.
Nic 08:21
You think about entrepreneurship; it takes so many no's it takes, like, if it was obvious, somebody else would be doing it, and half the time, the ideas, or more than half the time, the ideas turn out to be terrible. And then you have to try something else. You know, I had a lot of false starts before, ultimately, before I found Helcim. But you have to have something in you that just that is kind of like screaming against what actually makes sense. And then sometimes it all, everything lines up, and it makes sense. And then it makes sense in retrospective, but.
Leah 08:54
Right. I loved what you said there, that if it was easy, somebody else would be doing it. But that takes a lot of courage then to have this vision and just keep going. When, to your point, everybody's saying, no, no, no, I don't see it.
Nic 09:07
I appreciate saying courage. But I ultimately don't necessarily think that it's what's the driving factor. I think it's survival. You see a lot of entrepreneurs in immigrants, and I don't think necessarily comes from a place of like, going around, like, moving to a different country, and going through that experience is extremely courageous. But I don't think that like the choice of entrepreneurship came from a place of courage. I think it comes from a place of survival and just needing to just find a way to either find financial security and do something that you know, or just finding a way to prove yourself. But I think it comes from, like, survival, in the sense of, like, needing to do what you were meant to do. Or, like, you know, because if you come here when you've got what you see in a lot of immigrants, so they might have been very qualified from where they came from, they come here, and everything is reset. And then you're given two options, which is just like, do a career, potentially, that is, like, you're much over qualified to do, and unfortunately, the system isn't letting you step into what you're trained to do, or just step into something where you're just going to be in charge yourself, and you don't need anybody's permission, and that's what kind of ends up happening.
Leah 10:13
It does. It absolutely does. Okay. So, we've talked a little bit about sort of your first company, but how did you get to Helcim?
Nic 10:19
It's through the web design. So, you know, as we were getting more clients and starting to become a little bit more successful, at least, you know what success looks like for a 16-18-year-old?
Leah 10:29
I can't believe that.
Nic 10:31
This is before the Shopify days, and we started doing a lot more e-commerce websites. So, people come to us say, hey, I want to kind of sell something online. Is whether it's a service and I need somebody to program it. So, then got into more. I'm a self-taught programmer, so we started more into the coding side of things, and programming back ends, and setting up e-commerce from scratch. And then came the question of payments. So, they're like, Okay, now I gotta plug in payment acceptance. At the time, there's essentially PayPal already, but it already but it already had the reputation it has today, which was terrible, and the only kind of real other option was, like, going to one of the big banks, like Desjardins, and that was, you know, a very, not so pleasant experience to go through so and, you know, so that the gear started turning, going, is there something here? Is this something that we could get into? And ultimately, that started to, there's kind of two versions of Helcim. There's the Helcim that people see today, which really launched in 2020, and I kept the name primarily because we still had some good five-star reviews piggyback on that. But it's a new business. But there's the old Helcim I had started over a decade ago, which got into reselling payment services and trying to blend that with e-commerce. And kind of took a lot of like left turns and right turns trying to make it work. But the seed of it was web design, e-commerce, the payment friction and going, Hey, maybe we could do something better than the banks.
Leah 11:53
But this is what I always like to explore with Founders, is that, you know, a lot of people can still get to that conclusion, huh? There's something here that needs to be fixed, or I've got an idea for this, but they don't move on it; they don't act on it. Or even if they do, they don't have any idea or the perseverance or resilience that it takes to keep moving on it. Talk a little bit about how you overcame all of that.
Nic 12:15
I'll still lean on the survival. I mean, it's just like trying to make rent. I had to move in back in my parents a few times, because I couldn't afford it, but you've got something in your mind is like, I got to figure this out. I want to figure out this opportunity. And then I think you fall into almost like an entrepreneurial trap. And I say that it sounds negative, but I think it's both where you go down this path. And what's amazing about entrepreneurship is that you develop all of these skills, right, yet they are not transferable very well on a resume. So, you end up going like, Well, okay, now I'm 25, you know, I've got this business that's, you know, it's got some success, some not at least, I can pay some basic bills. If you have those dark moments going, like everybody has those, like, you know, do I keep going? Is this where I want to, you know, is this the success I really wanted? Is this, you know, am I actually going to be able to scale this thing? Is this a good idea or a bad idea? But then you go like, Well, what else am I going to do? Like, my resume is getting less and less applicable to, like, actually finding a job. And that's probably not true, you know, you can probably spin it.
Leah 13:19
You probably spin it.
Nic 13:20
You can probably spin it, but in your head, you just kind of going like, well, I can't do anything else. I gotta figure this out. And I think there's also just a for some of us, there's a determination of, like I, you know, ultimately, wanting to prove to yourself in the world that like you can be the success that you have in your head. And then so you just keep going and going and going. So, I think I still go back to, I don't think I don't fit as much courage as survival.
Leah 13:41
As for survival, I like that too. You said this vision that you have in your head of what you want it to be. Are you there yet?
Nic 13:49
We're getting closer.
Leah 13:50
That's exciting.
Nic 13:51
The thing with our companies, you know, we started in payments. We were essentially a reseller for the banks. It's the best way I like to describe it is like think about being like an insurance broker and not the insurance company, right? So, like, you can build yourself a nice business. You can be successful as a broker, but you're never really in control, back to that control thing, you know? You're never, ultimately, like you are in the shadow of the insurance company, saying that analogy, right? And for us, we were in the shadow of a bank, and we built ourselves, you know, a good business, and it was growing, and we got up to about 30 people and like staff on hand and 6000 clients, that felt like a small success, but we ultimately were thought like we could do something so drastically different, so much better for the small business customers that we service, but we got to get out of the shadow of the bank, and that took years. It took years and years and years because, ultimately the banks in the payments world and then the financial world are still the ones in control. You know, even if you think about all the, doesn't matter any kind of FinTech, if you think about like Neo banks or anything like that, there's always a bank in the background that has to sponsor them, right? You can't get away with it. So, ultimately we knew that we had to go build those relationships and convince/find a partner that would kind of let us do it on our own. It took many years, many hitting my head against the wall. I literally said to our bank partner at some point in exasperation, look, you've got new comments like square and stripe that are essentially like Godzillas in the streets, you know, flipping downtown upside down and like, yes, you might create, if you give us this license, you might create a monster out of us. But at least but at least we'll be your monster.
Leah 15:23
Right. And how do they respond to that?
Nic 15:25
Something clicked, finally, because they said yes at some point. And then we went down this, this crazy journey, which ultimately kind of launched Helcim of what you see, it in 2020, and to go back to your question, yeah, we think we're a whole lot closer at delivering on that mission, that promise, than we ever were. But it's, it was quite a, you know, twisty road to get there.
Leah 15:43
I bet. Let's explore the twisty in a minute. But give me the Helcim 101, where are you today? Where are you at?
Nic 15:49
We service 10s of 1000s of customers across Canada and the US, primarily small businesses. And, you know, the word small business kind of gets used a lot. And what does it mean? We really focus on kind of two groups. So, we have, like, traditional, we call it kind of traditional small business. Think about like vets, and dentists, and accountants, and auto-mechanics like, you know, like the kind of traditional business that is typically serviced by a bank. And then now we're standing here servicing a more to like the startups and tech-enabled businesses, and we're starting to partner with those as well. We have 160 staff, Calgary-based, and we're starting to, like our launch in 2020, we're starting to grow really quickly. So, we did our Series A investment in 2022, we just did our Series B in 2024, and, yeah, it's exciting. Everything feels on fire and exciting all at once. But that's part of the journey.
Leah 16:38
It is part of the journey. How does it feel when you're at this stage, and you look back, and you go, Wow, I can't believe we've gotten this far.
Nic 16:47
You never have, at least I never have.
Leah 16:47
Is that right?
Nic 16:49
I probably need to look back and appreciate more. But, like, you are so, so determined on the next step four, and it's 1000 little steps, and you're just like, it's so hard to, like, look up. I wonder if, whether it's through whatever's the next kind of giant milestones, whether it's like, you know, I'd love to go IPO, for example, maybe it's moments like that where you just kind of like, have a moment of realization, but even then, you're probably just focusing on the next step forward that I don't know, I don't know when the Oh, look at what's been built, kind of moment appears.
17:21
Wow, I mean, there are so many things I want to ask you about, but let's go back to when you were just a teenager, and you're building your business, and you've got this line of sight into something that maybe is going to be even bigger. You were so young at the time. Explain to me what it was like being that young and being the boss even. What was that like?
Nic 17:39
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it was a terrible boss because there's like, so little management training. I think the biggest thing was, you know, because we're in FinTech, because we're in finance, there was the try and convince our customers that they could entrust with their money. That was very challenging, especially when it gets better because, you know, you convince one, then you leverage the hell of this customer to say, like, hey, you know Jane over here. Trust me. Let's go to Bob, and hopefully, he can trust me because Jane trusted me, and now Jane and Bob trust me. Okay, maybe Robert can, you know, so it's kind of, so, I think there's that piece, and over time, you get bigger and bigger, and that helps and convincing a bank or any kind of like financial partner to go like, I mean, we ultimately end up partnering with a with an American bank, and most of our partnerships have, even though we service both Canada and the US, unfortunately, Canadian banks never open a door. We just, they would just, like, slam the door on her. And I, on one side, I kind of understand, like, you know, you're you're 24 years old, and you look like a punk, and nobody wants to, like, open the the door for you. But on the other side, I think that something I admired more on the US kind of ecosystem, in general, is that they are just more risk-forward as a culture. And I think that that's part of how we limit ourselves in Canada, is that we don't we're so slow to open doors. And there's especially that kind of the incumbents and them, those kind of monopolies and analogies, like they need to do a better job at fostering ultimately, you know, like, you know, we still have to give a portion of our revenues back to our partner bank. That's how these kind of structures work, right? And it's an American bank that's benefiting from that because they open a door. And it could have been money that's going back to a Canadian scene. It's not. And so there's, yeah.
Leah 19:15
They have some work to do, for sure. Yeah, I also think about the cultural aspect of it too, like, you know, Americans, maybe yet, to your point, what you said with their less risk averse, you know, and there's that sort of fear in Canada still, and I wonder if that will change over time. What do you think?
Nic 19:32
I think we need to as a nation. We launched our services in Canada, and when we were about to launch in the US, we had this fear of, like, will they want to do business with the Canuck, and the reaction was so different. It actually surprised us because I think this is a bit of a stereotype, but I think Canadians, in general, are so much more risk-averse that, you know, convincing them to switch from, like, yeah, they hate their bank, their bank has a bad contract, bad fees, about everything, yet they're just like, oh, but, you know, I don't know. I kind of, I kind of, I kind of trust it, or I, you know, versus, first of all, what was different is that you there is none of that loyalty to the big incumbent banks in the US, like, nobody's like, loyal to or at least nobody like, you know, at the majority, you don't see this default loyalty from consumers and businesses in the states towards like City Bank or Bank of America. Like, they don't think that way, right? They're like, you know, you got a good reputation, you got the right rates. Let's do business-like, it's just the doors open so much easier. It's a different mindset. And I think there's so many wonderful things about our country in terms of, like, the foundation of it, the safety net, in terms of our social programs, the stem concentration, the education. Like we have so many good, we are a smart, clever nation, and there are so many good things that could be or more good things that could be happening for us. But we just play it too safe. Toby, the founder of Shopify, said recently, you know, it's like Canada's the country that goes for bronze. And, I mean, that hits hard. I'm sure there's a lot of entrepreneurs on this podcast that go like, wow, that's not, you know, it's like, I get it. But I do think this is a nugget of truth in there that we need to kind of get out of our shell more and flex what we've got.
Leah 21:16
Flex it. Yeah, because it's pretty special. Yeah.
Leah 21:16
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Leah 21:45
Let's talk a little bit now about what it's like to be you managing a company when you've got, what did you say? 150-160 employees now, yeah. How is that different than when you're a 25-year-old punk?
Nic 21:58
I mean, everybody warned me at like the 100, you know, 80 to 100 employee mark. That's when everything when everything changes. And it's definitely it; you can't know everybody's names. Communication becomes super important. That's, you know, I think some of the growing pains we' had been going through, or are around, like management layers. And you realize that, like at 20 people, at even at 50 people, the way that you manage, the way that you set the culture can really kind of influence the whole company, but a certain point, it's absolutely you’re one or two layers down from you that are actually setting the expectations of culture and performance and expectations and everything. And unless you really invest into that, it just doesn't quite materialize to what you want it to be. So, we've kind of realized that we've been investing more heavily into it. It's difficult. I think some people really thrive in a smaller company. Some people, like, you know, kind of the entrepreneurs I talk to are, like, at a certain size, I just want to sell. That's not wrong, but I think others, like, I mean, I did the small business thing for a long time, and now I'm just, like, eager to learn more, and even, you know, I'd love to go public and really create Helcim into that one of the kind of anchor tech tenants of the city, kind of like what Shopify did in, you know, for Toronto and Ottawa. And then people go, Well, you don't want to be a publicly traded CEO. That sounds awful. And I'm like, there's pros and cons to everything, but I'm just ready to learn the next steps of that journey, not stay stale.
Leah 23:21
Yeah, you don't strike me as one that would be like just plateauing. Yeah, you're climbing, always.
Nic 23:24
That's the goal.
Leah 23:25
That's the goal. Exciting, but being an entrepreneur, of course, has a lot of demands on you and your time. I'm really curious about how you manage being an entrepreneur and an aggressive builder with having a family life.
Nic 23:40
That's a tricky, loaded conversation. I have a newborn, you know, eight weeks old.
Leah 23:45
Eight weeks old. Congratulations.
Nic 23:48
It's an amazing amount of love and chaos all at once.
Leah 23:49
Isn't it?
Nic 23:50
I'm a believer that you can have it all. You just can't have it all at once. And I don't know if you've ever heard about The Four Burners Theory. So, it's essentially about, like, I'm a big believer in, like, compromise and trade-offs because I don't think you can all have it all at once. And The Four Burner Theory is essentially, you only have think about, like, a stove, stove top, right? With four burners, right? And it's like, one of them is family, one of them is friends, one of them is health, and one of them is professional success. And you only have so much gas. You cannot run all those things at the same time. And you really have to make the choices of, like, how are you throttling those burners? It can get a little bit drastic in terms of, like, if you want to be good at something, you got to turn off one. If you want to be great at something, you got to turn off two, right? That gets a little bit cringy. So, let me be more towards, like, the modulation of what that means, but ultimately it's tricky. I mean, you have to make choices in terms of, for me, you know, the financial success and the business success and what I want to create, and the impact I want to make for the city, and for myself, and for this company, and for small customers, is super important, and it's a huge part of my drive. And I don't have many friends because of that, and that's one of the burners that, you know, unfortunately, kind of goes, right. And even when it comes to, like, personal time or anything like that, like, I'm a believer in having not, like, a non, no compromise. One thing that you're willing to, like, say, like, you know, and for me, it's sleep, which is super, like some people, it's working out. Some people, it's, you know, time with watching a movie, or whatever is you're kind of like, you're no compromise. For me, it's sleep. So, I've had to do and that's harder with.
Leah 25:28
I was going to say and how does that work with a newborn?
Nic 25:31
But it's like, what else am I willing to sacrifice and compromise on and turn off and really like, you know, and just going like, okay, my priorities are spending time with my wife and my newborn son, spending as much as I can into the business, and seeing if I can get a little bit of the, you know, sleep in there, and everything else kind of goes out the window. And you know, is that I think a lot of people would kind of not find that the ideal for themselves. But, you know, I don't see it as a forever thing. I see it as, you know, I want to hit a certain level. And hopefully it's kind of, it's ultimate delayed gratification, right? So, it's like you just, you know, I used to joke about, like, freedom 30 and then freedom 35, now I’m almost 40. So, it's, maybe it's freedom 45 is what I'm aiming for, but it's just like making that choice of, like, I'm gonna have to make a whole lot of compromises in a lot of aspects of my life because I want the entrepreneurial burner to burn so hot, and hopefully I'm in a position later in life that I can shift those burners and enjoy the fruits of that labour.
Leah 26:36
It sounds like you've been very mindful of those four burners that you're very aware of what this looks like when you have to throttle it. It's not something that you just sort of forget about. It sounds like you're mindful of it like that. You might, like, think of those four burners every day.
Nic 26:50
If you don't have your eyes open going into this thing, it's just gonna, like, smack you so like, because, I mean, it's so demanding, it's such a that you know, at least you know being aware of, like, knowing what you want and knowing what the trade-offs are, and knowing where you need to compromise, knowing where you need to ask for compromises from others. And it helps at least, you know, being aware of, it helps navigate the roller coaster and the emotions of it also.
Leah 27:16
Let's talk about those roller coaster of emotions. I mean, I hear it all the time when, when they're in the chair, there. It is so many super, super highs and super, super lows. Would you agree?
Nic 27:26
It’s interesting that and how fast it switches. So, you can start the day feeling like you're the king of the world and like, maybe you got a big contract, or you got, you know, some like huge news on something, and end the day with, like, feeling like you are terrible at what you're doing, and it's all falling apart. And like it happens, you know, daily, weekly, monthly, it's the highs are highs, the lows are lows. I know that's cliche, but that's like, certainly part of it. And I wish I was, you know, one thing I'm trying to work on this year more is, like, celebrating the small things more because you just, they kind of help you even out a bit. But yeah, it's definitely a roller coaster.
Leah 28:06
You know, I hear this, and as a non-entrepreneur, I'm thinking to myself, like, why would you do this to yourself? But it sounds like for you, you had no other choice.
Nic 28:15
Yeah, I mean, or at least in my head, I had no other. Or at least it feels like now, without getting a little bit too kooky, but it feels a little bit like Manifest Destiny, in terms of like you're doing what you were supposed to do, even if it's a, you know, crazy journey, and there's just, you know, moments of near-death or anything like that, like it's just you just like you feel like you're like, this is my path.
Leah 28:38
Okay, so how do you negotiate those near-death moments when you're right down at the bottom?
Nic 28:43
I'll give you one like we had just like two years ago. We had just closed our Series A, top of the world again, yeah, like, Oh my God, look, I you know, this is a huge milestone, first time bringing in institutional investors. And two weeks after closing our Series A, we've been working on a physical product called our smart terminal, which is, you know, allowing more established businesses to accept payments. And you kind of see those at the countertop with big, bright screen and, and we've been working with this manufacturer in Hong Kong, and it's been like it was, you know, a million dollar plus investment and kind of putting everything together. We're about to put in a big manufacturing ortho with them two weeks after the close, and then they ghost us, and we're just like, what's going on? This is an established company. There's others in the space using them like, what's going on, and then we get a notice, like an official legal notice, saying that they've just been acquired by one of our competitors, Stripe, and they're turning us off. It was one of those moments where you go from a crazy high to a crazy low. Hadn't even had my first board meeting yet. First time having a board meeting, a board, and the first thing I need to do is, like, set up an emergency board meeting and saying, like, we just lost our manufacturer. Stripe kicked us out. That was definitely a low. And then you're kind of going into, you kind of have to get, you know, you kind of, like. You know, gonna curl up in a ball for about 24 hours, and then you get out of it, and you're like, kay, we're we gotta go everywhere in the world to find who else can help us with that. And you go through this whole journey, and ultimately, it was a multi year journey. We ended up finding an amazing partner out of Taiwan that, ultimately we think worked out better. But yeah, it's just that's, those are the roller coasters that you're riding. It's also a reminder that you're trying to take on banks. You're trying to take on huge, you know, tech startups, like some of the biggest names in not just in payments, but the biggest names in tech, like Square and Stripe and PayPal, like, they're just, they're monsters, right? And they've got, you know, they've got really big feet with really big toes, and they can crush your toes. Those are the moments that test you. Of like, how determined are you? And how much do you believe in your mission, and how much do you believe there's a space for you in this market to really decide, like, do you keep going?
Leah 30:58
What does it feel like when you're curled up in that ball on the floor for 24 hours?
Nic 31:01
Everybody story looks shiny on the outside, right? You see success stories, and then you just assume that it was just all kind of success.
Leah 31:11
Sure, easy, yeah.
Nic 31:13
And I think that there are some circumstances like, we look at the lotteries, you know, you look at Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, and that's what entrepreneurs are. Like, that's the lottery. Not to take away from his efforts and everything. But it just, you know, that's not a clear example. But I think in those moments, those kind of, like, you know, near-death entrepreneurial experiences, like, you start questioning every like, the imposter syndrome kicks in hard, right? You're like, am I? Am I terrible negotiator? Am I terrible at business? Am I terrible this? Am I like, am I, you know, am I just kidding myself, you know, like that absolutely runs through your head. And I would say to, you know, any entrepreneurs listening to this like, it's just like, you are not alone. It's just even the ones that find more success; everybody is going through that pretty continuously. And I think that's a fun part about entrepreneurs talking to other entrepreneurs. And you kind of start sharing some of those, like, you know, f-up stories, near-death stories and everything, and you're like, oh, okay, maybe it's messy everywhere.
Leah 32:15
I mean, that's one of the reasons why I love this podcast, not to toot my own horn, but just because I get to talk to Founders about those moments and how did you move through it? So, I've got to ask you, so you're curled up in the ball, it's 24 hours later, how did you go? Okay, let's lose the imposter syndrome and just keep moving forward. What was happening for you?
Nic 32:35
Now, entrepreneurs will recognize this. You just you start making a list of like, what's the problem we're trying to solve, and who can help us solve it, and who knows who. And then you just lose any fear of conflict or rejection or anything, and you just pick up the phone or start sending out emails and then one thing leads to another, and you start exploring. And I think you just do.
Leah 32:57
You just do. And does the doing help with the emotional impact of it, because I'm imagining, like, emotionally, that’s got to hurt?
Nic 33:04
I think it allows you to feel a little bit more in control you have, whatever little control you have, right? And I think ultimately, I remember seeing a Twitter about, like, you know, the thing about this modern kind of information-based economy and this, you know, technology that we build right it's kind of like, it's a lot of like, if you just hit the right keys on the keyboard in the right order, enough, then you win at the end. It's just like thinking about and what I like about that is that like thinking about, like, ultimately, like, as long as we're breathing, as long as we have the means to keep going, there's a path. You just have to keep trying.
Leah 33:41
Wow. And thank you for saying, you know you're not alone out there to all the other Founders listening to this that are just a little bit farther behind. It's so true. Okay, so we're jumping back to present day now, and you've talked a little bit about how sleep is really important to you. But are there other things that you do to really fill up your own personal tank, to stay well and keep going?
Nic 34:02
Probably not as much as I would want to. I, you know, I find ways to to kind of get a workout in, and that helps with, like, the anxiety, and it helps with the sleep. Then spending time with my wife and my son now is probably the best way that I get and kind of rejuvenate. But I've always been somebody that's willing to sacrifice a lot, and in the end, I love my work. I genuinely, like, that doesn’t mean I love every day, but I genuinely, I feel very fortunate to do what I do, and so that, like, it doesn't matter if you throw me a marketing problem or a supply chain problem or whatever it is, like, Oh, cool. I get to type on the keyboard and come up with a plan and interact with people, and if you have a general love of business, and I think that's what, you know, kind of going a little into payments. On the surface, people like, oh, payment sounds boring, right? You're like, you know, if you're at a cocktail I don't know the last time I was at a cocktail party. But if people ask about, like, what do you do? Payments? On the surface, that sounds boring, but what I love about it is that if you have a love of business, you get a front-row seat into so many companies and the way that they operate. You know, we service everything from a restaurant, to a brewery, to a tire manufacturer, to an embassy, to a theatre, to like everything, and to dentists, everything in between, right? Like, and if you love business, you really get to explore an amazing range of just like, how the world, or how the economic heartbeat works, and payments gives us a front-row seat. And then so, like that love, I think, is part of the reason I'm in this industry, and ultimately that love of business in general, allows you to just take on the next challenge and be like, Oh, this. I just find every topic interesting and good because, like, every day seems to be like, I'm tackling a different topic.
Leah 35:57
Right. That's so interesting. So, that leads nicely into this notion of impact. At Thin Air Labs, we talk about creating meaningful human impact, and impact comes a lot, comes up a lot in these conversations. When you think about creating impact, what does that mean for you at Helcim?
Nic 36:13
Yeah, it's a good question. I look, I'm not going to pretend that like there's so many startups that work, you know, in health-tech or clean-tech, or in charitable givings or so on, that I think could more directly link what they do to, like, a positive impact in the world. I process credit cards like it's not as thrilling on the surface, but I mean, we do, like, you know, our missions to be the world's most loved payments company. That's a bit of an oxymoron because nobody loves their payments. But we really mean it. We think that, like, I think that can came from falling in love with small businesses and the ones that gave me a shot, and, like, seeing how poorly they are treated to this day by some of the big names I mentioned, and going like, yeah, we can do better. And that seems like a righteous kind of like mission because ultimately, small businesses account for, you know, 90 plus percent of employment and our economy, and they deserve a shot. So, I think that keeps us, and when we have people join, when we say, like, you know, working non-stop is really demanding, and you really have to find behind the job, why are you here? Some people are here because they love the culture that we've created, and we love working with super kind of talented, dense people. Some people are here because, you know, they come from a small business background, or their parents came from a small business background, and they wanted to have that impact, and they believe in the mission, right? Some people are at our company because they love the idea of building and having that impact in Calgary, in terms of that the tech ecosystem that we're building, and being part of something big, and ultimately, you know, for me, it's probably a combination of of all of those things. But, you know, you gotta anchor when you're part of a startup, you gotta anchor yourself to, like, one of those things, because there's gonna be some, like, hair on fire moments, and you go like, wow, I can make better money somewhere else. Why am I here? And it's like, well, you know, outside of the stock options, there has to be a reason that that keeps you driven.
Leah 38:06
I totally understand that, Nic. I hear what you're saying about the link to the life science companies, for example. That's that's a direct, easy-sight line to the impact. But yeah, when you think of those small business owners and the impact they're creating and the impact that you're having on them, that's huge.
Nic 38:21
And I think, ultimately, like, you know, it's cliche, but we think they deserve better. They don't deserve, you know, three year contracts and hidden fees and terrible customer service and banks that take them for granted. That's, you know, on one side, we're very fortunate because we get to sell a service that is a must-have. You know, small businesses will turn off their lights before they turn off their payment machine because they need to get paid. But on the other side, we also get to compete with a lot of D players in this space. You know, a lot of a lot of like old school banks that have taken it for granted. So, you know, we love kind of coming in, being like they deserve better. We can do better, and our competitors aren't trying that hard. So.
Leah 39:06
You like shaking it up. He's got a huge grin on his face right now, just for the record. Okay, so when we think about wrapping this up, you're the Founder, and you're writing the story for Helcim and for your company. How do you hope the story goes?
Nic 39:20
Ultimately, I mentioned a few times we'd love to take the company public when we get to the right size, and for a number of reasons, it's not; I don't see my public as like as an exit. Sure, it brings liquidity, and that's that's nice for everyone involved, investors and stakeholders and employees and, but ultimately, I see it. You know, going public brings you into the public conversation the way that private companies typically don't, right? I think so. Also, you become part of the public discourse. You become, you know, like and also.
Leah 39:50
Why is that important?
Nic 39:51
I think, I mean, there's the kind of very selfish element of that, which is, like, brand awareness. But I also think that, like, it helps put the city that you're working, you know, in and that you love, and I really do love Calgary, on the map. And I think that ultimately success would be, you know, we grow the company to this size where it's a meaningful player in the Canadian Space, the US space. And then when people think of, like, oh, what's tech in Calgary? It's like, Helcim. Just like Shopify was able to do that for Toronto. And I think they were kind of like the, really, like the really kind of big beacon for that city. And I think we could do that right here in Calgary, and that would be just a stepping stone to just build world domination while helping our small business customers.
Leah 40:33
I love it. I love it. And then, as a Founder, you're a Founder of this incredible company. How do you hope your personal story goes?
Nic 40:41
I mean, I'd love to build, continue to build a team that just that talent density and that that kind of the drive for excellence that ultimately is able to go and spin off into all of their own adventures and just help build the ecosystem into, you know, what it can be.
Leah 41:01
Nic, thank you for this conversation.
Nic 41:02
Thanks for having me.
Leah 41:11
As the lead investor in Thin Air Labs - Fund One, Sandstone Asset Management believes in building the commons through innovative founders who are creating meaningful, positive impact, both locally and globally. Sandstone is doing just that by backing the next generation of emerging entrepreneurs. Picture this: a founder start-up goes from idea to international impact supported by strategic investors who believed in their vision. That's the power of Sandstone's approach. Sandstone doesn't just manage wealth; they cultivate it, supporting founders at all stages. Visit sandstoneam.com to learn how sandstone builds legacies that last.
Calgary is a city of innovative companies ideas and talent. The Opportunity Calgary Investment Fund is investing in Calgary's future by finding, fueling, and fostering innovation to build a diverse and resilient economy. Find out more at opportunitycalgary.com
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In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Leah Sarich sits down with Nuha Siddiqui, the visionary Co-Founder and CEO of Erthos, a climate technology company redefining the building blocks of plastics. Nuha delves into her unexpected journey into entrepreneurship, the pivotal role of Enactus in shaping her path, and the relentless drive to solve the global plastic crisis. With candid insights, she shares the highs and lows of raising millions in funding, the challenges of being a young woman in STEM, and the importance of resilience and purpose in her mission.
Nuha discusses Erthos' groundbreaking work in creating bio-based alternatives to plastics, collaborating with global brands, and the significance of scalability in combating the plastic crisis. She emphasizes the value of being receptive to diverse ideas and not always being the smartest person in the room. This episode also explores Nuha’s thoughts on the impact of women in STEM and entrepreneurship, as well as her vision for a sustainable future where Erthos leads the way in systemic change.
About Nuha Siddiqui
Nuha Siddiqui is a visionary entrepreneur and the Co-Founder of Erthos, a pioneering company revolutionizing the plastic industry with sustainable material solutions. With a strong background in entrepreneurship and an unwavering passion for sustainability, Nuha has led her team to create a significant impact by collaborating with diverse experts and partners. Her innovative leadership style, which emphasizes humility, creativity, and team growth, has positioned Erthos at the forefront of systemic change in sustainability. Nuha’s dedication to solving global challenges and her ability to inspire and support her team makes her a trailblazer in the field, driving the future of sustainable innovation.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Enactus UofTSandstone Asset ManagementOpportunity Calgary Investment Fund--
Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air LabsContact Nuha Siddiqui:
LinkedIn: Nuha SiddiquiWebsite: planeterthos.comInstagram: @planeterthosTikTok: @planterthosLinkedin: ErthosZYA AI--
Transcript
Nuha 00:02
Sometimes you can go into a very, very dark hole, and I have had those times as well, right? When you're hearing everybody tell you that it's not possible, but I think for me, what's always helped is centering myself to the purpose and why we're doing it. It's not about me, it's not about my Co-Founders, it's about the greater purpose that we're working towards.
Leah 00:25
Hi, thanks for being here and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. I'm Leah Sarich, your host, and I'm super excited to talk to more Founders about the human experience of being an entrepreneur. In this podcast, we're digging into what it really feels like to build a company from nothing. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years. So, I've interviewed thousands of people, but entrepreneurs, not that many. And yet they have the best stories. They're solving big problems, and they're creating incredible impact. But it is hard work. So, why would they do this? Let's find out.
Leah 01:12
Joining me today is Nuha Siddiqui, Co-Founder and CEO of Erthos, a climate technology company reimagining the building blocks of plastics to accelerate the worldwide adoption of sustainable materials. Nuha, good morning. Thanks for being here.
Nuha 01:26
Good morning. It's great to be here.
Leah 01:28
I love this conversation that we're going to have. I'm just so excited to learn more about you and your company and what you've done, and it's just extraordinary. So, thank you in advance for doing this and for telling us your story.
Nuha 01:39
Of course, I'm excited to dive in. It's not every day I get to have these conversations. So, I appreciate you.
Leah 01:47
Wonderful. Let's go back in time, shall we? How did you actually come to being an entrepreneur?
Nuha 01:53
I think I never imagined this for myself. So, first of all, I never thought that I would be an entrepreneur. If I think back to my childhood, my upbringing, I think I've always been instilled to want to create an impact and serve my community in some way. My parents always made sure that that was core to the way that we were brought up, and we grew up in different parts of the world, and were always exposed to different communities, and sort of built that network. But it wasn't until I was in university, I was at the University of Toronto. I was studying business. I was in business school, and as an immigrant family, stability was very important for us, and so I did join Business School, initially to become an accountant, which is probably the opposite of what an entrepreneur is, but I was just so wildly inspired by my community, again at University of Toronto, and I was a part of an organization called Enactus. And at that time, I never even knew what social entrepreneurship meant. I didn't know what social impact meant. And it felt like there was this world that existed, that brought together business and actually trying to create scalable, meaningful products and solutions alongside the impact part of who I was. And so, I'd say that Enactus was one of the key reasons why I even pursued this journey and thought of myself as an entrepreneur, which I think I would have never imagined myself to be at the time.
Leah 03:28
Wow, so you started this company while you were still a student.
Nuha 03:32
Yes, I was in my second year of university, so I was 20.
Leah 03:36
Unbelievable. That's amazing. How did you have the confidence, or even the audacity to think I'm just gonna do this?
Nuha 03:45
I love saying confidence now, but I think at the time, it was just a little bit of being naive and hopeful and optimistic. And I think that's what you really do need when you're an entrepreneur. You have to be so wildly optimistic about a future that doesn't exist, and you have to want to change that and create that. And so, I think a part of me was just thinking about the problem itself and how it inspired me, and how it was so big, and that was challenging and bold, but it was also just we needed to solve it. We needed to find a way to fix the problem of the plastic crisis. And so I think that's what kept me going, and keeps me going even today.
Leah 04:23
Amazing. But you know what I always talk about on this podcast, specifically with entrepreneurs, is, you know, lots of people have great ideas or are motivated to change the world, but very few actually do it. And you had did it. And in fact, if I'm not mistaken, as soon as you went out there to raise money, you raised, like, $7 million.
Nuha 04:46
Yes. I mean, I wouldn't say it happened overnight, for sure. But you know, it took a lot of learning, of growth, of self-reflection and really challenging myself too, and my team. And you have to not want to give up. And that resilience is what shapes every company, right, every success story that we see today. And yeah, it was quite the journey for me, and very grateful to have gone through that as well, because that itself is part of the journey.
Leah 05:15
Absolutely, it is the journey. So, what was it like for you, being a younger woman going out there and raising money and saying, This is the company I've got, and I'm building this, and I'm going to tackle this huge problem.
Nuha 05:30
Yeah, and, you know, I think I probably had everything going against me, right? I was younger. I, of course, I'm a young woman. I don't come from decades of years of experience, and I don't have a wealthy network of family and friends to raise around or anything like that. I knew that that was what I had against me, and I think being aware of that and knowing that we would have to prove ourselves 10 times harder than anyone else, and just knowing that that would drive us forward was really important, and it was really difficult at first. I got many, many rejections. No one wanted to invest in us. No one even wanted to join our team. It was hard to hire. It was very, very difficult. But I think over time, what really stood out to me is that it was really important to just prove that we had the ability to learn and grow. We knew that we didn't have all the answers, but we were willing to actually go out and find them. That was a key part of how we proved ourselves to investors, is showing them how we could actually learn and grow and move very quickly. And so sometimes it would take a rejection, it would take a no from an investor to then just say, Okay, why are you saying no? Tell me why you're rejecting me, and then going out and doing the work to prove why that was not true, and actually coming back to them a month later. And so, you kind of have to be okay with that rejection and have the courage and no ego to go back and just say, You know what? We tried. We tried to actually solve that. We tried to fix it. Now, will you invest? And sometimes they'll say no again, and then you'll have to go back, and it's a whole cycle, but it truly was important to do in those early stages when we didn't have anything else to kind of prove for our capabilities.
Leah 07:24
No kidding, but you know, there's people that would hear those no's over and over again and then say, okay, you know what? It's too hard, or okay, this isn't gonna work. I can't do it, but you didn’t do that.
Nuha 07:34
Yeah, I mean, sometimes you can go into a very, dark hole, and I have had those times as well, right? When you're hearing everybody tell you that it's not possible. But I think for me, what's always helped is centring myself to the purpose and why we're doing it. It's not about me, it's not about my Co-Founders, it's about the greater purpose that we're working towards. And I don't care how many no's we get, this is real, and this is a problem that we have to fix. And so if it's not me, then then who? And just working towards that, it's always been, always been important.
Leah 08:14
Wow. That's amazing. Well, let's talk about this solution. Tell me about Erthos, what it is and what you hope to achieve.
Nuha 08:20
Yes, so we're a biomaterials company, and we have a strong belief in the power of bio-based alternatives to plastics, and we feel as if this can truly change the trajectory that we're on with the climate crisis, with the plastic crisis. Everybody is aware of plastic pollution in our planet, and we know that there's solutions out there. But A. we don't want to accept a soggy paper straw solution, because that's not okay. And B. a lot of the technologies that we're seeing, even within the alternative space, are not scaling as quickly as we need it to be. And so at Erthos, our goal is to actually accelerate the use and the adoption of bio-based alternatives for plastics, and work directly with the world's largest brands to help normalize these materials and actually standardize them for scale. We don't have a lot of time. We really don't, and at this point, we've seen so many CPGs and companies come out with their 2025 targets and 2030 targets, and that's tomorrow. That's very, very soon. And if we don't actually reduce our carbon footprint, eliminate the waste that we're seeing in our planet, we're actually not going to be able to reverse the current state that we're in. And so that's that's what we're working on at Erthos. We are a material science company at our core. So, our team consists of some of the world's brilliant scientists and engineers who've been inventing incredible materials, but we also have been collecting really interesting insights and data on these ingredients and how to unlock them in new ways with AI and so, that's what the future looks like for us.
Leah 10:01
That's incredible. Can you walk me through so our listeners can understand, like, how that would actually be applied? Some of that, maybe a few case studies, things like that?
Nuha 10:11
Yeah, so we work with brands who are creating and selling everyday products like a shampoo bottle or, you know, even food packaging and a lot of these materials are plastic. And so what we do is we reimagine these plastic materials with a bio-based source and a bio-based ingredient instead. And our materials themselves are better footprints, so they have a lower carbon footprint. They take less energy and water to create, but they're ultimately also designed to be fully compostable or recyclable in different cases. The way our technology is applied is that we work directly with these brands and help them reimagine this product, and within six months, which is very rapid in science timeframes, we're able to design a brand new, novel material that replaces that plastic and ultimately fits into their current systems, their manufacturing, and their global supply chain.
Leah 11:13
Wow. So, these big companies then aren't like having to build new manufacturing capabilities. You're working with what they already have.
Nuha 11:19
Exactly and that's part of our approach, is that we don't actually feel as if there's a one size fits all, especially within this space, and it's really important for us to tailor these solutions to the end product, like a shampoo bottle or to the brand supply chains, because that's what maximizes scale and what maximizes the adoption of these materials long term.
Leah 11:43
No kidding, let's talk a little bit about that scale. Because when you talk about being a global company, that is what's required, isn't it, this scalability? So, talk a little bit about how you're going to be able to do that.
Nuha 11:55
Yeah, I think for us, it's all about partnerships and making sure that our technology is built in a way that it can be scalable across different industries and different regions. We always built Erthos knowing that we wanted it to be a global company. We hated the idea of building a product or solution that would be so niche that would only be in one state, in California. We really wanted to make sure that we were building the solution for mass scale, because a lot of the communities that are impacted by the plastic crisis are not just here next door to us. They're across the world and they're they're seeing the impact of this firsthand. Our tech today, and the pivot that we made earlier this year was with that in mind and actually giving everybody access to our technology in a much more transparent way. So, in the past, we never actually talked about our ingredients, we never talked about the science. But now we've actually just launched Erthos Studio and our AI platform ZYA, for everyone to access and be able to use for their brands and for their products as well.
Leah 13:02
Amazing. Let's talk a little bit about that pivot. Because, you know, as companies scale, startups often have to do a big pivot like that, and sometimes you're not really sure, like how this is going to go. It can be quite unnerving to say the least. Talk about the pivot experience for Erthos.
Nuha 13:16
Yeah, we've had multiple pivots, like most companies. I think that this one was truly a response to the urgency of this challenge, and the fact that, you know, eight years ago, when we started this problem existed, but it wasn't at the scale that it is even today. And I think it was part us just being frustrated at the fact that we know that we can accelerate this. And we know that we can actually solve some of these big problems, but if it took actually releasing our technology and opening up access to this technology to actually accelerate it, then that was what we needed to do. And so the Erthos Studio pivot was really based off of that, and I think it was the best time to do it for us because we have spent several years in R and D and actually understanding these challenges, getting down to the root of it, to understand what's required. And we built our own materials, and we've invented some incredible materials that can now be accessed for our clients. And so in some ways, yes, it's a pivot, but I hate using the word pivot because it sometimes feels as if it's a drastic change, whereas this really felt like a natural response to what was needed today in the market.
Leah 14:30
Wow, that's amazing. That's incredible. So, how many employees are you now?
Nuha 14:34
We are 23.
Leah 14:37
And they're from all over, aren't they?
Nuha 14:39
They are, yes. So, we have an incredible team. Everyone is based in Canada but comes from very different backgrounds and different disciplines. The diversity of our team is truly our superpower. And I always say this, and I never change my answer, because our team is incredible.
Leah 14:57
That's amazing. Am I right, that you have finished your series A?
Nuha 15:01
We closed our round last year. So, it's been, it's been a year now.
Leah 15:07
Wow, that's incredible. Is it 11 million? Am I right?
Nuha 15:09
We raised 6.5 million this last round.
Leah 15:14
That's incredible. So, incredible work. Tell me a little bit about what it's like being a young entrepreneur. I know you made the Forbes 30 under 30 list, by the way, congratulations. That's very exciting. How does it feel to be in that company, you know, in that magazine, on that list?
Nuha 15:33
it was definitely something Kritika and I always thought about, we never thought, you know, it would happen, but it's just such an honour to be a part of that list, but I think it's just us on that list, but it really is our team that deserves that recognition. You know, we get recognized for the work that we're doing, but we would not be where we are today if we didn't have the support of our investors, our partners, our families, our team. It truly takes a village. It feels incredible. But, you know, we still have a lot of work to do, so Kritika and I usually just get back right to work. We shake each other's hands, usually whenever we have some sort of win, a very formal business handshake, and then we go straight back to work. So, that's usually how we work.
Leah 16:19
I hear this over and over again on this podcast, like, you have to be really conscious about celebrating the wins, because really, you're just heads down. You just want to keep going, like, what's next?
Nuha 16:27
Exactly. You're either in a constant state of euphoria or just completely scared and just everything is falling apart. So, there really is no middle ground.
Leah 16:40
Let's talk a little bit about that roller coaster of emotions, if you will. What's it like to be so high and then so low?
Nuha 16:50
It's a lot. It takes a lot. It's draining at times, of course, but it's also what makes it really fun and keeps everything very interesting every single day. And you know, I think I've tried to make sure that I have some sort of balance and even some of the wins, trying to celebrate them, but it's hard to celebrate sometimes when you know that there's so many other things going on. So, I think for me, I've just tried to be mindful of actually taking the time to celebrate some of those wins. Because, yeah, the highs are the highs, and they're incredible, and you kind of have to take in that moment sometimes too.
Leah 17:29
Absolutely.
Leah 17:30
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Leah 17:54
Let's talk a little bit about your personal life, if you don't mind. Like, what does it look like to be an entrepreneur? How does that affect your personal life?
Nuha 18:03
It doesn't allow for much of a personal life in a lot of situations. It's been a journey in that world as well for me. I've spent my entire 20s, which is a core part of, you know, everyone's life, building Erthos, and it's been hard, of course, to balance everything. I have an incredible partner, family that supported me throughout this journey. But of course, it's a lot of compromise. You do have to make a ton of sacrifices when you're doing this at the age that I'm in, at any age, to be honest, but yeah, it's a different decade. My 20s have been a different decade than I thought it would be, but I'm super grateful for having an incredible partner and kind of support to do that. And there's one story, I mean, that kind of helps communicate the impact of this, but I actually got married the same day I closed my first round of funding, so I literally signed legal papers five minutes before I walked out the aisle. So, I anytime anyone asks me, what is the balance? I usually say that, and it sums up everything for me.
Leah 19:22
That is unbelievable. You're signing papers like two minutes before you have to walk down the aisle.
Nuha 19:26
Yes. And I wish I was exaggerating, but it was the same hour that we did that.
Leah 19:38
Oh my gosh. That is unbelievable, but it also strikes me as almost a classic sort of entrepreneur story. Every entrepreneur's got a crazy story like that. That is unbelievable. That's making me giggle all the way. So, your partner must be an extraordinary person.
Nuha 19:52
Incredible, like I think, to actually be okay with that on my wedding day, takes an incredible person. So, yes.
Leah 20:01
Awe, that's incredible. Well, I'm happy for you, and I'm happy to hear that this is hilarious, because, you know, I'm reflecting on that not being an entrepreneur myself. Like, that's kind of nuts, actually. Like, there's not a lot of people that would be okay with that, you know, whether, you know, as the partner or as the entrepreneur themselves, they might just like, what am I doing? This is insane.
Nuha 20:21
I know, I know it is. It is completely insane. But you know, that is the life that I have chosen.
Leah 20:30
That's amazing. Let's talk a little bit more too about, you touched on this briefly when it came to celebrating the small wins. But is there a way that you consciously make an effort to fill up your own personal tank so that you can keep pushing ahead and taking the next challenge on?
Nuha 20:46
Yeah, you know, I've thought about this, and I feel like I'm always looking for something, and I wish I had something specific, but for me, what I found is just finding little things within all of the craziness, because it's hard to commit to something completely, right? Like, you know, thinking about something that'll take hours out of my week, and trying to commit to that is really hard at this state, and that's just me being super honest. But what's helped is just finding those little moments, whether it's, you know, when I'm travelling constantly for work, and just taking 30 minutes to just put on my air pods and walk this new city that I'm in and not know anything or anyone, and kind of just like take that moment in. But I also love just reflecting, journaling whenever I can, as well, and, of course, spending time with my family. I love baking. I'm a huge baker, and I like sketching, so things that are really just ways for me to feel like I'm just letting myself be more creative and kind of have no rules, and just kind of do what makes me happy, but I'm still looking for ways to keep myself sane. It's not always easy, but yeah, that's what I've been doing.
Leah 22:01
Amazing. Good for you. I love that that is a creative outlet for you, the baking and the sketching, you know, that's lovely. But I think actually, and I've talked about this before, being an entrepreneur is actually very creative. You know, you're really creative. It's the creative approach to the problem-solving, I think that really leads to really unique results.
Nuha 22:19
Yeah, a lot of entrepreneurs, you have to be creative just the way that you think and what you're doing. But yeah, for me, it's balancing that out with something else that just unlocks a different part of my brain sometimes. Which is important, I think.
Leah 22:35
Absolutely. Wonderful. Let's talk a little about your leadership style. I'm very curious about what that looks like for you. I would imagine being a younger entrepreneur that you have developed and gathered a multi-generational team. What's it like to lead that team?
Nuha 22:50
It's always been about bringing together the best of the best team, and knowing that you're not the smartest person in the room sometimes is always really important. Especially when I'm trying to recruit some of the most incredible people who come from different experiences and expertise, and bringing them on as a partner and bringing them on as a team member. We have an incredible setup for our team where everyone truly is collaborative. And you know, it doesn't matter what your background is and how many years of experience that you've had, when you come into a room and we're talking through, you know, a problem or something that we're working on for the project, everyone's opinions and thoughts are equal, and I think that that's always really key for us. But I continue to be very inspired by everyone on our team. And for me, it's just making sure that I can support everyone in their growth and their journey. Because for them, they're also joining a company at a very exciting time, but also not choosing a corporate job, right? And they're choosing to come work here and choosing to spend their career building out this company, and so it's really important for them to feel like they're part of that growth and journey. And that's just the way that I hope we continue to build the company too.
Leah 24:13
Amazing. How did you learn to appreciate that diversity of thought? How did you learn to be receptive and open to all the ideas in the room and know that it's good for me not to be the smartest person in the room all the time? How did you get to that place?
Nuha 24:30
It was core to how we started the company as well, because we were trying to go up against the plastic industry, being students at the University of Toronto, and I think it was always just making sure we were humbling ourselves to know that we had a lot to learn, and if we wanted to actually solve this problem, we needed to put ourselves in a setting where people would talk to us and actually communicate some of their challenges. And I think that that approach and just that perspective we had was always core to how we built our products, too. When we couldn't figure out, you know, the right business model, instead of giving up on it, just because we were these Canadian students that were not plastic experts, we booked one-way tickets to Asia, and we literally lived in China, trying to work with plastic manufacturers to just have them tell us what's wrong and have them educate us on what's wrong so that we could build a solution that actually made sense. And I think that those are the key moments that inspired us early on, and I think it continues to be what we try to make sure the team is also incorporating in just the way we operate.
Leah 25:46
Wow, so you just jumped on a plane and went to Asia and tried to figure out this problem.
Nuha 25:51
Yes, when we couldn't figure it out here, we had to go where we would get answers. And I think that the curiosity of it all, but also just the drive of wanting to figure out the problem. And I think if we went in there with the, you know, persona of knowing everything or trying to challenge others in this space, or maybe make other plastic manufacturers feel bad for what they were doing, we would have never gotten the insights and the very valuable information that we did from them at the time. And so I think that that was really a core part of how we made the initial pivot to the company we're at today.
Leah 26:31
Incredible. I would imagine too, it bolsters some of your confidence in what you're doing as you are boots on the ground, learning what you need to learn, to make the decisions you need to make.
Nuha 26:41
Yeah, exactly. I think we're now experts in this space because of those early, you know, early days of being on the ground and putting ourself in that position.
Leah 26:53
Absolutely. Talk to me a little bit about how you think of some of the great, big, massive players that are in this space that I'm sure are watching what you're doing, or might someday be watching what you're doing. How do you think about some of those big players watching and looking and lurking over your shoulder?
Nuha 27:13
I say, Let's chat. I think that Erthos Studio and the pivot we made was essentially our call to action for the entire industry. We no longer see anyone as a competitor. We see everybody as a potential partner in this solution that we're building. And it's been incredible to see some of that response, because previously, some of the companies that we would have never ever tried to talk to or communicate with, are now becoming really great strategic partners for us to help accelerate this. So, I think now is the time where we can really bring together a lot of key players to make the moves that we want to make. And I'm excited about it. I'm excited to see these big companies now paying attention to Erthos.
Leah 28:04
That's so exciting. It's a little bit scary. I mean, I'm just, I'm like, I'm just trying to get my head around that, like I would be maybe a little bit scared of these big companies coming in and having a look. But are you scared?
Nuha 28:18
No, I'm not. Maybe I should be? You’re making me think about this now.
Leah 28:23
Oh no, no, no, carry on as you were.
Leah 28:27
No, I'm really not scared. I think that it's so exciting. And again, if you asked me this question maybe a couple of years ago, I would have said yes, but I do feel like we've brought the company to a place where we can have these conversations, and we can genuinely add value to companies in a whole new way. So, I'm not scared, but maybe ask me again next year and I'll change my answer.
Nuha 28:53
I really hope I didn't influence you that way. I think, I admire your courage and your audacity. I think it's incredible. I love it. Let's talk a little bit about what you truly love about being an entrepreneur. You touched on it a little bit, but I have a feeling that you really like the problem-solving. But I'm sure there's many things. Let's talk about it. What do you really love about being a Founder and an entrepreneur?
Nuha 29:13
I love that I am inspired every day by the people around me and the problem that we're solving for. I love that it's hard. I love that it's challenging me in a whole new way. And I think just knowing how much I've learned from this journey is really incredible. And I couldn't have imagined, you know, having that same experience or impact, and I feel very grateful and privileged to be in this position. I love when we can change someone's mind for the better. That is the most satisfying feeling is when you know that the work that you're doing has genuinely changed someone's mindset on sustainability, the future and our planet, and knowing that we can have even that small impact or influence in some of these legacy companies and these legacy leaders and executives is probably the best feeling in the world. And yeah, just seeing my team grow and the company make the impact that it is so gratifying for me.
Leah 30:27
No kidding, that's amazing. So, let's talk a little bit more about that impact that you want to make. When you think of Erthos, when you think of the planet, and you think of what you're wanting to do, how do you think of creating impact?
Nuha 30:42
For us, it's so closely tied to the impact that we make on a planetary level. So, of course, our business and growth in our business just ties directly to that. Ultimately, we want to change the trajectory of the plastic crisis. We know that we're not there, and if we continue to be on the path that we're on, we have no future like there is, it's truly do or die in that situation, right? And so I think, for me, impact is being able to actually be a reason why a large brand is completely shifting away from plastic and using a more sustainable product. And for everyone, whether it's you or me or our team or anyone, to actually go into a market or to any of the everyday locations that they go and to see a material that genuinely is better for the planet, and for that to be because of us, and I think that that's the impact that we want to make, is normalizing it and creating a future where sustainability is the norm and not just an exception.
Leah 31:52
I love it. Do you have any thoughts around impact when it comes to women in STEM and women in entrepreneurship at all?
Nuha 31:58
We have so much work to do when it comes to that, and that's what I hope. You know, personally, those are things that really motivate me, and I hope that that will be a part of what inspires another young woman, or, you know, just inspires women in STEM and women in entrepreneurship to continue to build big businesses and big impact solutions, because the world needs it, and I think that we don't often see women leading that, and we have a lot of work to do there, but I hope that we'll be in a better place, you know, a few years from now. We're almost there, but yeah.
Leah 32:40
Well, you are definitely part of the inspiration, that's for sure. All right, as we start to wrap up this conversation, I always like to end on a couple of similar questions. You are the Founder of Erthos, and you're writing the story for your company. How do you hope it goes?
Nuha 32:54
I think it comes back to the impact. So, the impact for us, and we want to be the reason why everyday plastics are reimagined to truly inspire systemic change, long-lasting change, and we hope that Erthos is at the forefront of that, and leading the way, and inspiring brands and manufacturers and everyday consumers to really see that as a solution for the long run.
Leah 33:23
Amazing, and then, if you think of yourself as a Founder, as an entrepreneur, how do you hope your own story goes?
Nuha 33:31
That one's harder to answer. You know, it's a work in progress. Right now, I think for me, being able to be tied to the impact of my company, but also just the impact of the world that I'm in, which is climate tech and entrepreneurship, but also making sure that at the end of the day, I'm just a good human and I can maintain my community, my relationships, which are so important to me, and continue to serve my planet and my community in a way that's truly meaningful. So, regardless of Erthos that is my purpose in life, and will continue to be my purpose in life.
Leah 34:16
Wonderful. Nuha, thank you for this conversation.
Leah 34:20
Thank you. Thanks. Leah.
Leah 34:31
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Leah 35:14
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Welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset! Veteran broadcaster Leah Sarich hosts all-new intimate conversations with groundbreaking founders about the truths of entrepreneurship. Founders get asked about traditional business stuff like product market fit and revenue all the time, but Leah digs into what we really want to know: what is it actually like to be a founder? Why do it? What sacrifices does it require? Is it worth the challenge? This season Leah talks with Nuha Siddiqui of Erthos, Dr. William Cherniak of Rocket Doctor, Megan Leslie of NanoTess, Nic Beique of Helcim and more to find out why they do what they do. Tune in to The Founder Mindset as brilliant founders share their personal wins, losses, and dreams with Leah Sarich.
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Contact Thin Air Labs:
Website: ThinAirLabs.caLinkedIn: Thin Air LabsX: Thin Air LabsYouTube: Thin Air Labs--
Transcript
Leah Sarich: [00:00:01] Hello and welcome to Season Two of The Founder Mindset, brought to you by ATB. We're so glad you're back to hear more from founders who, despite all the odds, are building companies that will have an incredible impact on the world, just like our first season. And we're not going to be talking about traditional businessy stuff in this podcast. Instead, we're digging deep into what it's really like to be an entrepreneur. The human experience of building a business from that first big idea. I mean, what's it like to see a future that others don't? How does it feel to keep going when everybody else says you shouldn't? And why take the risk? We're going to get candid here. I was a broadcaster for over 20 years, so I've interviewed thousands of people, and I like to get to the heart of it. And I can tell you founders love to share these stories. They get asked all the time about product market fit and their business models and revenue and all that stuff, but rarely about how it feels to do this very hard work.
Nuha Siddiqui: [00:00:59] There's one story that helps communicate the impact of this, but I actually got married the same day I closed my first round of funding. So I literally signed legal papers five minutes before I walked down the aisle. So anytime anyone asks me what is the balance? I usually say that and it sums up everything for me.
Nic Beique: [00:01:22] You start making a list of like, what's the problem we're trying to solve and who can help us solve it and who knows who. And then you just lose any fear of conflict or rejection or anything, and you just pick up the phone or start sending out emails and then one thing leads to another and you start exploring, and I think you just do.
Jenn Hunter: [00:01:42] It's all personal to me. It's my baby. Like, I've sacrificed so much personally for this. And this has afforded me so much personally as well. And so the blend to me is just, it's just my time. And, you know, whatever is the highest priority in the moment gets my time.
Megan Leslie: [00:01:58] I am teaching my new emerging leaders leadership skills, and I'm delegating leadership responsibilities to new leaders. And watching them, hearing their comments, hearing their questions, and seeing their growth, all of a sudden I was transported back in time to say that was me. And now look at where I am and how a problem that they're tackling feels like it's a Goliath of a problem. It's so simple, but it's only simple because it's not a f-ing first time for me anymore.
Dr. William Cherniak: [00:02:31] I'm fortunate I get to work with one of my brothers.
Leah Sarich: [00:02:34] That's cool.
Dr. William Cherniak: [00:02:35] Yeah.
Leah Sarich: [00:02:35] Or is it because, you know, sometimes siblings.
Dr. William Cherniak: [00:02:38] Know we have our moments, but we've come to a balance over the last few years.
Chenny Xia: [00:02:42] It's more like what it doesn't affect? It impacts your friendships and the people you choose to be in relationship with. Even the partner that you choose to have in life as well, because it's a 24/7 thing, which comes with a lot of challenges. It's this crazy roller coaster, some high ups and a lot of low lows.
Leah Sarich: [00:03:07] Yeah, we're gonna have some great conversations here on The Founder Mindset, because ultimately there's so much for all of us to learn from these founders. So please subscribe now, share the episodes, and thanks for listening as we hear from the founders building what's next.
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“Through and through, one of the most competitive entrepreneurs that we’ve invested in, and that’s saying a lot because the bar is pretty high for the competitive average for our entrepreneurs, yea this guy, he will not quit.” —James Lochrie on Provision CEO Erik Westblom
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Erik Westblom, Co-founder and CEO of Provision, chats with Leah about:Why he wants people to really understand the stress of being a founderHow he thinks about shame as motivationWhy he’ll always be obsessed with the bank balanceBONUS CONTENT
At the end of the episode, Leah gets reaction to her conversation with Erik from James Lochrie, Managing Partner of Thin Air Labs which invested in Provision.
Hear how James relates to Erik’s candid truths about the impact entrepreneurship can have on families. Find out what James has learned about processing the stress of being a founder, and how that’s helped him become a better investor and mentor to founders like Erik. And hear what led James to offer a rare investment on the spot into Provision.
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“It’s been 13 years… and the way she talks about the future, the way that she talks about how the opportunity has never been greater, she’s never been more excited… It’s easy to understand why we’d make an investment in a person like this.” —James Lochrie on Orpyx CEO Breanne Everett
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Dr. Breanne Everett, Founder and CEO of Orpyx, chats with Leah about:
Why she went from surgeon to entrepreneur How she navigated the premature birth of her first child and fundraising at the same timeWhy the opportunity for impact keeps her going through the inevitable challengesBONUS CONTENT
At the end of the episode, Leah gets reaction to her conversation with Breanne from James Lochrie, Managing Partner of Thin Air Labs which invested in Orpyx.
Learn more about how James deeply admires Breanne’s growth as a leader, her emotional resilience and her drive to create meaningful human impact with her company.
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“This is a guy, an accidental entrepreneur, with a low risk tolerance - a guy who stumbled into entrepreneurship because someone opened a door for him, and now he talks about it like a north star. He’s got it.” —James Lochrie on ZayZoon CEO Darcy Tuer
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Darcy Tuer, Co-founder and CEO of ZayZoon, chats with Leah about:
Why he’s continually drawn to being a founderHow he thinks about rejection What he’s learned from facing several ‘go or no go’ points in his startup journeyBONUS CONTENT
At the end of the episode, Leah gets reaction to her conversation with Darcy from James Lochrie, Managing Partner of Thin Air Labs.
Hear how James deeply respects Darcy’s desire to make a meaningful difference in people’s lives, how he shares Darcy’s low risk tolerance and love of problem-solving as risk mitigation. And learn more about James and Darcy’s love of the Calgary innovation ecosystem.
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“She believes in a future we can’t see. She believes in challenging herself and creating autonomy for herself. She wants fulfillment that only she can deliver as an entrepreneur to herself” — James Lochrie on AltaML Co-CEO Nicole Janssen
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Nicole Janssen, Co-founder and Co-CEO of AltaML chats with Leah about:
How she was a terrible employee and what she loves about being an entrepreneurWhat it feels like to learn a major investor is pulling out while you’re on your first vacation in years, and what she learned from that experience How a life-changing diagnosis has made her a better entrepreneurBONUS CONTENT
At the end of the episode, Leah gets reaction to her conversation with Nicole from James Lochrie, Managing Partner of Thin Air Labs.
Find out why James thinks Nicole is the ultimate professional, how he deeply admires her ability to create trust with her candor and why he thinks more entrepreneurs should take on a leadership role like Nicole has to educate and inspire stakeholders in their sectors.
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“If you want to hear about an entrepreneur act like an entrepreneur, be honest about what it’s like to be an entrepreneur, this is the one I’d pick out. He’s just laid it bare as a young inexperienced entrepreneur who’s struggled and had some success and continues to fight the fight, it’s a really special episode.” — James Lochrie on Arbor CEO Alex Todorovic
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Alex Todorovic, Co-founder and CEO of Arbor chats with Leah about:
how the fun part of being a founder is the scrappy startup stage what he does to calm himself when he wakes panicked in the nightwhy he wants to hold the reins of his company for as long as possibleBONUS CONTENT
At the end of the episode, Leah gets reaction to her conversation with Alex from James Lochrie, Managing Partner of Thin Air Labs which invested in Arbor.
Find out what James relates to in Alex as a young man focused on a better future. Learn more about Alex’s humility and ability to iterate which resonated with James, and why James has so much confidence in the team Alex has built.
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“You could hear it in her voice: I’ve been trained for this, I’m battle ready, I’ve got the scars, I’ve got my team beside me and I’ve already got my plan. Let’s go do it, it’s just waiting for us, let’s go take the hill.” — James Lochrie on Fillip CEO Alice Reimer
In this episode of The Founder Mindset, Alice Reimer, CEO of Fillip chats with Leah about:
why she thinks founders should get some business experience before starting their startup how carrying the weight of a startup can get pretty heavy what keeps her coming back to being a founder, time and againBONUS CONTENT
At the end of the episode, Leah gets reaction to her conversation with Alice from James Lochrie, Managing Partner of Thin Air Labs which invested in Fillip.
Find out what James respects about Alice as a founder, why he thinks her description of herself as a “hustler” is apt and learn more about why he decided to invest in her company.
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In this episode of The Founder Mindset, James Lochrie, Managing Partner at Thin Air Labs chats with Leah about:
what motivated him to become an entrepreneur then investor the complicated emotions he had around the acquisition of his companywhy he continues to support founders, rather than sit on a beach and more! - Laat meer zien
