Afleveringen
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This week, Nikki G., host of Surviving the Black Church and survivor of FIVE different high-control groups, discusses joining the first church on her cult-hopping journey, how she got initially pulled down the rabbit hole by conspiracy theories and the Book of Revelation, and the intensity and community that drew her to each group.
She tells the girls about her second and more radical group, IHOP (International House of Prayer), how she eventually learned the term “religious addiction,” and why the idea of “waiting for your Boaz,” or your perfect husband, can be so harmful for women in the church.SOURCES
Surviving the Black Church Podcast
Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network
Nikki G. Speaks
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This week, Lola and Meagan are joined by comic, actor, and author of Sure I’ll Join Your Cult, Maria Bamford. The girls discuss Maria’s childhood OCD, intrusive thoughts, and the ways those experiences primed her to seek support, structure, and belonging through a variety of groups later in life. They explore culty (but helpful!) aspects of 12 step programs like Debtors Anonymous and Al-Anon, along with the many other communities she’s loved and joined along the way.
Maria also shares her experience with eating disorders, going to treatment in her twenties, and the controversial Suzuki Method through which she learned violin as a child.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Zijn er afleveringen die ontbreken?
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This week is part 2 with Sarah Edmondson, NXIVM survivor, author, and host of A Little Bit Culty. The girls pick back up as Sarah goes deeper into the organization, eventually entering DOS and confronting the growing contradictions inside NXIVM. She’ll discuss the emotional grip of the group, the normalization of control, and the psychological unraveling that began once the cracks became impossible to ignore.
Sarah also opens up about loyalty, fear, cognitive dissonance, and the terrifying process of realizing the self-help system she devoted years to was built around manipulation. The conversation explores deconstruction in real time, what finally pushed her to question Keith Raniere, and how leaving meant rebuilding her entire sense of self.
SOURCES
A Little Bit Culty
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This week is part 1 with, at long last, Sarah Edmondson, NXIVM survivor, author, and host of A Little Bit Culty, a podcast and now book, co-hosted and authored with her husband, Nippy Ames. She’ll tell the girls how she first joined the self-help group—which turned out to be a sex cult—starting with a comment by Mark Vicente that shook her worldview. She’ll discuss why she was drawn to the goal-oriented framework and define some core tenets of NXIVM, including what it means to be “at cause" by demonstrating the exercise on Lola and Meagan.
Sarah will explain how tenets like being "at cause" were actually tools for manipulation used to deflect from the group’s wrongdoings. She will also discuss feeling starstruck when she first met leader Keith Raniere, who claimed to be the smartest man in the world, and the idea of “spiritual wives” (and how he may have stolen that from Lola’s prophet).
Next week we’ll get into her later years in the group, DOS, and how she left.SOURCES
A Little Bit Culty
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In part 2 with Nomzia aka Nomz Bistline, from Netflix’s docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet (with Lola’s mom), Nomz shares what it was like getting raided by the FBI, how she felt about Lola’s mom when she learned Christine was the FBI informant, and why the “prophet” Samuel Bateman was obsessed with marrying the queen of England.
She discusses the events leading up to her time in jail, how she began the painful process of deconstructing while in prison, and what life has been like since getting out–and finally being free of Samuel Bateman.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This week is part one with Nomzia “Nomz” Bistline, from the Netflix docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet (with Lola’s mom, Christine!). Nomz joins the girls to talk about what it was like growing up in polygamist group the FLDS after leader Warren Jeffs went to prison, how she was raised in poverty and taught to be paranoid about the outside world, and how many of the fathers in the community were sidelined and sent away.
She explains how Samuel Bateman began claiming that he was the new prophet, and what it was like when he started targeting her and wearing her down over time, threatening her salvation and ultimately coercing her into becoming one of his wives.And next week, she’ll talk about the raid, Sam’s conviction, and her relationship with Christine now.
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Lyndsey Burr, longtime reality television producer who worked on America’s Next Top Model for years, joins the girls to talk about her experiences working on the now-controversial hit show. She talks about what the team looked for when casting, some of the more problematic challenges the show used, and the time she lost the models in Thailand.
They discuss how it was the wild west of reality TV, with every show in the early days trying to outdo each other and often not considering the consequences for the folks on the show, and Tyra’s own arc and whether she was perpetuating the harmful cycle she’d been trying to stop. Plus, why Lyndsey thinks unscripted television has–hopefully–been getting more ethical.
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In part two with Matthew Remski (author and host of the Conspirituality podcast), Matthew shares how he cult hopped from his first guru to his second, the moment that disillusioned him, and the cultural patterns he's seeing—including a resurgence of the Satanic panic—that most alarm him as he follows conspiracies and spirituality on his podcast.
He’ll talk about how the importance of addressing the root economic causes of why so many people are looking to snake oil salesmen for answers, pointers from his upcoming book (Antifascist Dad) for how to navigate this fraught information landscape, and why it’s important to create healthy organizing spaces–since all sides of the political spectrum are susceptible to cultish behavior.SOURCES
Conspirituality
Antifascist Dad
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This week’s guest is Matthew Remski, author and host of the Conspirituality podcast. In part one, he talks about his own personal experiences with gurus and cultic dynamics, and what led him to the topic of cults and conspiracies. He tells the girls about his own religious upbringing, the mysterious seizures that led to his fascination with spirituality, and what drew him to his first charismatic guru, Michael Roach.
He explains what an average day was like following Roach for three high-demand years, traveling with him and attending his “classes,” what the physical manifestations of his spiritual experiences were like in both that group and the next one he joined, and what led to his disillusionment (with the first one).
Plus, next week: He’ll tell us why he cult-hopped, patterns he sees emerging in the world of cults and conspiracies, how we can keep political spaces healthy, and what Marx has to do with any of it.SOURCES
Conspirituality Podcast
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Author Harrison Hill joins the girls to discuss his new book The Oracle’s Daughter, which follows the rise and fall of a small cult called the Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps. He explains what the religious landscape in America looked like at the time, with the spiritual awakening and unrest of the 60s transitioning into a new Christianity movement, and how this group’s leader Lila Carter (who later became Deborah Greene) began her spiritual journey on a commune called the Bear Tribe.
They discuss the beginnings of Lila’s own visions, moaning and grunting and giving birth to what she called “spiritual soldiers,” how her following grew, and the parallels between her and Shaker leader Ann Lee. Naturally, the group became more controlling and cruel over time, changing people’s names to words like “Despised,” using physical punishment on its members, and even kidnapping a baby. And finally, they touch on how Lila’s daughter Sarah, the subject of the book, found her own way through all of this, eventually leaving and sharing her story of survival.SOURCES
The Oracle’s Daugher: The Rise and Fall of an American Cult
The Cut - How Sarah Greene Escaped Her Mother's Cult
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Celeste Gross joins the girls to talk about her experiences growing up in the Children of God - aka the Family - along with her many siblings. She explains how her parents joined when it still just seemed like a beautiful gospel movement that helped her dad get sober, but how it changed over time once they lived on a commune in Brazil and became reliant on donations for survival. She shares how every part of life was controlled–down to how many squares of toilet paper they were allowed to use.
They discuss the media ban the group imposed, and how only songs and TV shows made by the group were allowed--other than two very specific movies (which will surprise you). She shares how her family became homeless overnight after they finally left, and the extreme hardships they faced while trying to rebuild a life from nothing.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This week, Dan Olson, creator and host of YouTube channel Folding Ideas, returns to continue the conversation on cryptocurrency and NFTs. They discuss how these bubbles are driven primarily by charismatic leaders, why success rates of investment are similar to MLMs (read: the vast majority of investors don’t win big), and how there’s a lot of shame around having lost money in this arena–but why more men should come forward with their stories.
Dan explains why there’s no inherent difference between scam cryptocurrencies and so-called “real” cryptocurrencies, since all are rooted in speculation and faith, where the line is between greed and just being a victim of American prosperity gospel, and what to look out for to prevent yourself from getting scammed.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This week, Dan Olson of the YouTube channel Folding Ideas joins the show for a deep dive into crypto, NFTs, and why so many of these spaces start to feel less like finance and more like belief systems. He breaks down the history of Bitcoin, what cryptocurrencies actually are, and how NFTs exploded into the mainstream, with investor communities promising not just wealth, but destiny–as long as they suppress their doubt and stay in line.
They discuss the gender divide and whether crypto is MLMs for men: same promises of prosperity, different packaging. Plus, some of the insider jargon and acronyms used to shut down skepticism, and how it all added up to a financial technology becoming a social identity.
And stay tuned for part two next week, when Dan will zoom in on the role of charismatic leaders in driving the decision-making.
SOURCESFolding Ideas
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This week is part two with Liz Cameron, author of Cult Bride and survivor of Korean religious group Jesus Morning Star, also known as JMS. Last week she discussed the slow process of indoctrination into the group, and this week Liz shares how she learned the community's deepest secret: the mysterious Pastor Joshua was actually named Jung Myung-seok, but he was REALLY the Second Coming of Jesus. And yes, he was currently sitting in prison in South Korea for committing sexual assault… but don’t worry, that was just because of persecution.
Liz explains how all the carefully planned indoctrination leading up until this point primed her to be able to accept something like this, how she’d been identified to be one of the brides of the leader, what happened when she traveled to Korea to meet him in person, and how the eating disorder re-triggered by the group landed her in the hospital—but ultimately helped her get out of the group.SOURCES
Cult Bride
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This week is part one with Liz Cameron, survivor of South Korean religious sect Jesus Morning Star (aka JMS, aka Providence), and author of Cult Bride: How I Was Brainwashed – and How I Broke Free. She explains how her entry into JMS began with being approached by a woman in a bookstore for a harmless survey, and how that survey turned into a bible study group full of women who gained her trust and introduced her to their new and exciting Christian church.
Liz shares how the group began encouraging her to spend more and more time together and get up earlier and earlier, and how they painted her old church, community, and even family as people who weren’t dedicated enough to Jesus–all as they slowly introduced the idea of an incredibly spiritually devoted man they called Pastor Joshua.
Next week: we’ll get into how they began to reveal who Pastor Joshua really was (hint: his name was Jung Myung-seok), his criminal history, and how a god on earth could be sitting in a prison in Korea.SOURCES
Cult Bride
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This week we’re back with Martina Castro, creator of new Exactly Right podcast Two Faced: John of God, a series about John of God, the famous Brazilian “healer” and “psychic surgeon.” Last week she explained John of God’s so-called healings and doctor spirits that attracted celebrities and visitors from all over the world, and this week Martina walks Lola & Meagan through some of the darker allegations that began to come out.
She shares about how the sexual abuse survivors began to come forward with their stories, the deep political influence John of God had in the town that allowed him to get away with it in plain sight for literally decades, and the mysterious disappearances of people in the town. They discuss the dynamics of devotion and denial, and what it takes to finally break the spell.SOURCES
Two-Faced: John of God
Dos Caras: Juan de DiosSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This week’s guest is Martina Castro, creator of podcast Two Faced: John of God, Exactly Right’s new podcast series about John of God, the Brazilian self-proclaimed healer and “psychic surgeon.” In part one, Martina explains John of God’s history and mythology, how he became internationally famous for his alleged healings (amplified by celebrities like Oprah), and the carefully primed environment he created called “the Casa.” Everyone dressed in white! Crystals! Waterfalls! And of course, lines of pilgrims watching him channel “doctor spirits” to supposedly heal the town's many visitors.
They discuss how his “free healings” weren’t as free as promised, his so-called “invisible surgeries” that supposedly worked from across the globe, and the in-person healings he did that involved putting objects up uncomfortably far up people’s nasal cavities. And next week, we’ll get into the explosive allegations that came out during the #MeToo movement.SOURCES
Two-Faced: John of God
Dos Caras: Juan de DiosSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This week, the show is joined by Parvati Shallow, two-time Survivor winner, current cast member on The Traitors, and author of Nice Girls Don’t Win: How I Burned it All Down to Claim My Power. Parvati shares about her childhood growing up in the Kashi Ashram, a high-control commune led by Joyce Green–or, as she made everyone call her, “Ma”. She discusses Joyce’s origin story and how she claimed to have experienced the stigmata, Joyce’s relationship with Ram Dass (who he later said he’d been bamboozled by her), and how she became increasingly coercive and controlling, including taking children from their parents and instructing members to scam their own families for money.
Parvati reflects on how her parents escaped but ultimately came back to the group, what it was like living on the commune and being wild in nature, and how surviving that environment shaped her instincts, resilience, and ability to read people–skills that later helped her win Survivor, and how she’s now unpacking what it means to reclaim her power on her own terms.SOURCES
Nice Girls Don't Win
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This week’s guest is Jenny Eliscu, journalist, radio host, and producer on Britney vs. Spears, which covered Britney Spears’ infamous conservatorship. She explains how Britney’s struggles in 2008 were used to justify a permanent conservatorship—despite the contradiction of her being deemed too incapacitated to control her own life, yet well enough to tour, record, and generate massive income that her father, whom she barely had a relationship with, was in charge of.
Drawing from decades of reporting, a personal relationship with Britney, and her work on Britney v. Spears, Jenny breaks down the severity of the conservatorship, stripping Britney of the right to use her phone, make medical decisions, or even have a say in who her lawyer was going to be, and where Britney’s fight to end the conservatorship finally landed.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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In part 2 with podcaster & writer Jonathan Hirsch (creator of podcasts like Dear Franklin Jones), Lola & Meagan discuss life in the cult of Franklin Jones, aka Adi Da. They discuss the dramatic meditation rituals in the group, what it felt like to get blessed by the leader, and how different members saw some of the same things that had happened completely differently, depending on whether they still believed in him later or not.
They discuss the lawsuits and allegations against Jones and how the cult panic of the time impacted the way his followers saw them, the importance of being able to admit when you’re wrong, and how ultimately Jonathan left.SOURCES
Dear Franklin Jones
The Mind Is Burning
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