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"Spirituality is like nuclear fissionâit has the power to illuminate and energize but also to destroy when mishandled." â Dan Koch
"Thriving isn't about a perfect life; it's about alignment between our deepest values and our lived reality." â Dan Koch
On our path to spiritual health, we need to keep our eyes open to the ways religion and spirituality have been exploited to coerce, control, and create chaos. Focusing on the intersection of religion and psychology, licensed therapist, researcher, and podcaster Dan Koch is creating a public conversation about spiritual harm and abuse, helping victims learn how to deal with spiritual trauma, and offering insight and guidance toward healthy religious and spiritual experiences.
From his own personal journey of religious trauma to his extensive research on spiritual abuse, Dan shares insights on how faith communities can both wound and restore. The conversation covers the psychological impact of religious trauma, the complexities of self-diagnosis, and practical strategies for self-knowledge and healing for anyone who has wrestled with faith, struggled with past church experiences, or have lost their religion.
In this conversation with Dan Koch, we discuss:
The psychological study of spiritual abuse and harm, including conceptual definitions and the many factors that come along with them.The symptoms and most recognizable patterns that point to spiritual abuseThe impact of abuse and trauma on psychological and spiritual healthHow to reappraise and challenge harmful core beliefsAnd how to find healing, joy, and transcendence as we deal with past trauma.Spirituality: Pro-Social Benefits, with a Shadow Side of Harm, Exploitation, and Violence
Through With & For, as well as the broader work of The Thrive Center, we regularly explore the expansive benefits and positives that emerge from our inherent spirituality as human beings, and how that relates to our individual and collective thriving.
Religion and spirituality can be an immense force for good, offering countless pro-social benefits to the world, helping us our innate spiritual capacities is an essential factor in what it means to thrive.
But we have to acknowledge the harm and vice and corruptionâthe violenceâ that has been perpetrated through religious and spiritual contexts. Spiritual abuse is a serious matter and thereâs no way we can cultivate a full understanding or integrated experience of healthy spirituality without coming to terms with its prevalence and effects.
Dan Kochâs attention to spiritual harm and abuse is about clearing the way toward a healthier spirituality grounded in care and healing. By exposing and exploring past traumas in the context of heathy and respectful relationships, we can grow into a more joyful faith and transcendent spiritual life.
About Dan Koch
Dan Koch is a licensed therapist supporting patients working through the trauma of spiritual abuse; and his work and insight in this domain emerges from his empirical research. Heâs also host of the You Have Permission podcast. With a background in philosophy and theology, he explores questions of faith, doubt, and spiritual well-being. His research focuses on the psychological effects of religious trauma and how individuals can heal from spiritual abuse.
Find more of his work at dankochwords.com.
You can find his podcast, You Have Permission wherever you listen to podcasts and find exclusive episodes at patreon.com/dankoch.
Helpful Links and Resources
Dan Kochâs WebsiteJoin Dan Kochâs PatreonYou Have Permission PodcastDan Kochâs Research on Spiritual AbuseThe Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale Clinical ScreenerDevelopment of the Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale (Article, May 2022)Quotable
"I would just distinguish between self-knowledge and self-diagnosisâone leads to growth, the other can lead to unnecessary fear."
"Avoidance is both a symptom of trauma and a cause of itâit keeps the rest of the symptoms around."
"Spirituality is like nuclear fissionâit has the power to illuminate and energize but also to destroy when mishandled."
"You can't worship a villainâwhen spiritual abuse distorts your image of God, it becomes almost impossible to stay in faith."
"Thriving isn't about a perfect life; it's about alignment between our deepest values and our lived reality."
Show Notes
Dan Koch on spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and healingHow beliefs about God shape emotional well-beingPractical self-knowledge exercises to promote healingThe impact of fear-based religious teachings on mental healthStrategies for deconstructing harmful religious experiencesUnderstanding Spiritual Abuse and Religious Trauma
Definition and key elements of spiritual abuseDifference between spiritual harm and abuseThe role of power, control, and coercion in religious settingsHow religious trauma manifests in daily lifeConnection between religious trauma and PTSDThe Psychological and Emotional Impact of Religious Trauma
The interplay between faith, fear, and mental healthThe long-term effects of toxic religious teachingsHow avoidance perpetuates trauma symptomsSelf-diagnosis vs. self-awareness in spiritual healingThe importance of challenging harmful core beliefsPractical Strategies for Self-Knowledge and Healing
Dan Koch's guided self-knowledge exerciseHow breath work can regulate anxiety from spiritual traumaRecognizing and reframing harmful core beliefsThe power of contemplative practices in spiritual healingUsing evidence-based approaches to reconstruct faithHow Churches and Communities Can Foster Spiritual Health
How leadership can avoid coercive controlCreating spaces for questioning and spiritual growthThe importance of transparency in religious institutionsEncouraging self-agency in spiritual communitiesRedefining authority and spiritual guidance in a healthy wayPam Kingâs Key Takeaways
Spirituality is like nuclear fission: its incredible power can be harnessed for abundant good that is essential to thriving, but when it is exploited or used irresponsibly, the fallout is catastrophic for human well-being.Thriving is an integrative process that can be better understood and better lived when we draw from psychological, philosophical, and theological sources.Sometimes our core beliefs are the source of spiritual harm and trauma, and these can be reframed, reappraised, and challengedâaligning us with self-respect, truth, and love.About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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We need a recovery of the sacred in our secular world. Because the mental, emotional, and psychological struggles haunting society right now canât be solved without addressing meaning, purpose, and the longing for connection to something beyond ourselves.
In other words, spiritual health is an essential part of mental health.
An attorney, religious scholar, and university chaplain, Dr. Varun Soni is Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California, and is leading us back to our true north, through spacious and life-giving spiritual conversations and sacred practices that realign us to our values and identity.
In this conversation with Varun Soni, we discuss:
Finding the sacred in our secular culture.Religious pluralism and what it means to build trust that reaches across religious lines of difference.The transformative power of finding your âtruth northââyour North Starâto orient our journeys of faith and spirituality.Varun shares six pillars of flourishing; how to align our actions with our values; and the benefit of listening to the cultural narratives and stories we tell.He reflects on the missing elements of spirituality in our understanding of mental health today, evidenced in his work with teens and emerging adults.He offers us a Hindu meditative practice to provide inner clarity, stability, and calm.And he comments on compassion and a cultivation sacred spiritual practices to counteract the loneliness, anguish, and suffering in our world.Show Notes
Dr. Pam King welcomes Varun Soni, Dean of Religious and Spiritual Life at USCJourney from Hindu attorney to first Hindu Dean of Religious and Spiritual Life in the U.S.âWhat does it mean to be Indian? What does it mean to be Hindu? What does it mean to be American? What is this Indian American experience?â1965 Immigration and Naturalization ActInspired by grandfatherâs connection to Mahatma GandhiââWhat it meant to be Hindu was to be like Gandhi. What it meant to be Indian was to be like Gandhi. What it meant to live a meaningful life was to live like Gandhi.âââI continued to study religion as a way of understanding myself.âSitting with the Dalai Lama on Mahatma Gandhiâs birthdayMentorship from the Dalai LamaDeepak Chopraâs influenceâInterfaith trust buildingâUniversity ChaplaincyWhat is thriving to you?"Thriving is the alignment of purpose and practiceâitâs not about arriving, but about moving in the right direction."âWhat is my north star, and how do I get there?âSpiritual well-being about asking the right questions, not having all the answersReligion once provided meaning, rituals, and communityânow young people seek new structures"What is sacred to you? If you canât answer that, youâre drifting without a compass."The urgency of time when turning 50 years oldâIâm not trying to prove anything to anyone anymore.ââPut the process before the answer.â6 pillars of thriving and well-being: diet, sleep, exercise, contemplative practice, emotional intelligence, connection to natureBasic physical pillars of thriving: Diet, Sleep, ExerciseSpiritual pillars of thriving: Contemplation, Emotional Intelligence, and Communing with NatureFinding what is sacredâfaith, relationships, personal values51% of USC students non-religious, 80% spiritualRecord levels of loneliness, imposter syndrome, comparison cultureâNot just a mental health crisis, but a spiritual health crisis.âLoss of intergenerational religious experiencesâkey protective factor against depression"We took away religion and replaced it with social media, then wondered why anxiety skyrocketed."Social media fuels disconnection rather than community"We werenât built for this much bad news. Our brains werenât designed to process global suffering 24/7."âThereâs no right way to do contemplative practice.âFind moments built into your dayExercise: So Hum breath meditation: Inhale âSo,â exhale âHumâUsing meditation as a spiritual technology or tool"You are not your thoughtsâyou are the awareness behind them."Identity shaped by personal narrativeâ"If you donât like your story, rewrite it."Telling the story of who you will become"Every individual is the hero of their own journey, whether they realize it or not."Cultural mythology, from sacred texts to Marvel movies, reflects search for meaningSpirituality helps build redemptive life narrativesâThere power in being part of something bigger.âThe Spiritual Child by Lisa Millerâresearch on spirituality and mental health"Itâs hard to hate the people you loveâuniversities are one of the last places where people can learn to love each other across differences."Technology and mediated relationshipsWhat is sacred to you?"Gen Zâs greatest superpower is empathy, but theyâve never been lonelier."Building protective factors for young peopleGratitude rituals shift focus from anxiety to appreciationCare, justice, and connectionMental Health CrisisMental Health and Spiritual HealthAwe-inspiring momentsânature, music, relationshipsâessential to well-being"Awe, wonder, and gratitude arenât luxuriesâtheyâre survival tools."âYou canât doom-scroll your way to joy. Presence and connection matter.âReligious institutions declining, but human need for transcendence remainsCreating new rituals and meaning-making for a secular generation"Spiritual health is just as important as mental healthâignore it, and you miss a key part of the equation."What is your North Star? What gets you up in the morning?How do your daily practices align purpose and action?How do the stories you tell shape your identity and thriving?Try So Hum meditation as a daily mindfulness practiceEngage in one act of gratitudeâwrite a note, express appreciation, savor a momentItâs all too easy to fragment our lives into secular and sacred, but thriving and spiritual health require wholeness and integration of every aspect of ourselves, including our faith and spirituality.Future generations of leaders need our guidance and support in their connection to community and their search for meaning, purpose, and hope.Keep your seat-belt firmly fastened, your seat-back upright, tray table stowed, and secure your own spiritual oxygen mask before assisting others.We can counteract the outrage, anxiety, and information overload with simple, daily practices that bring stability and clarity.We thrive when we align our actions and our values, our behavior with our beliefs, and our practices with our purpose.About Varun Soni
Varun Soni is the Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California. He received his B.A. degree in Religion from Tufts University, where he also earned an Asian Studies minor and completed the Program in Peace and Justice Studies. He subsequently received his M.T.S. degree from Harvard Divinity School and his M.A. degree through the Department of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He went on to receive his J.D. degree from University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, where he also completed the Critical Race Studies Program and served as an editor for the Journal of Islamic and Near Eastern Law. He earned his Ph.D. through the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Cape Town, where his doctoral research focused on religion and popular culture. As an undergraduate student, Dean Soni spent a semester living in a Buddhist monastery in Bodh Gaya, India through Antioch Universityâs Buddhist Studies Program. As a graduate student, he spent months doing field research in South Asia through UCSBâs Center for Sikh and Punjab Studies.
Dean Soni is currently a University Fellow at USC Annenbergâs Center on Public Diplomacy and an Adjunct Professor at the USC School of Religion. He is the author of Natural Mystics: The Prophetic Lives of Bob Marley and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (Figueroa Press, 2014) and his writings have appeared in the Washington Post, Huffington Post, Crosscurrents, Jewish Journal, and Harvard Divinity Bulletin. He produced the critically acclaimed graphic novel Tinaâs Mouth: An Existential Comic Diary by Keshni Kashyap, which is currently being adapted as a feature length film. He also produced and hosted his own radio show on KPFK-Pacifica that showcased music from South Asia and its diaspora. In 2009, he was one of the organizers of the historic Concert for Pakistan, a benefit concert at the United Nations General Assembly Hall featuring Salman Ahmad, Sting, Outlandish, Jeff Skoll, Deepak Chopra, and Melissa Etheridge.
Dean Soni is a member of the State Bar of California, the American Academy of Religion, and the Association for College and University Religious Affairs. He is on the advisory board for the Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement, Journal for Interreligious Dialogue, Hindu American Seva Charities, Future45, and the Parliament of the Worldâs Religion. Prior to joining USC, Dean Soni spent four years teaching in the Law and Society Program at UCSB. Born in India and raised in Southern California, he has family on five continents and they collectively represent every major religious tradition in the world.
About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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In our world of urgency, certitudes, and immediate access to a flood of information, could it be that a humble curiosity, inspired awe, and delightful wonder might give us the strength to heal and thrive?
Using an expansive emotional vocabulary matched with wit and care, TV host, podcaster, and author Kelly Corrigan is inviting the world to relational vulnerability, compassionate curiosity, and stalwart bravery to face our biggest problems through listening and loving wonder.
In this conversation with Kelly Corrigan, we discuss:
Her approach to having conversations that feel transformativeâthe kind that unlock and open us upHow wonder grounds her spirituality and personal vocationThe profound lessons she learned from her mother and father, and how each showed up for her when she was at her lowestHow to learn wisdom and leadership through coaching and mentoringHow to build the emotional container of home for a familyWhat it means to be brave in our world todayAnd how to communicate love through the simple act of listening through three simple invitations: âTell me more!, What else?, and Go on.âAbout Kelly Corrigan
Kelly Corrigan is a journalist of wonder. Through hundreds and hundreds of conversations with some of the worldâs most interesting people, she approaches both timeless questions and contemporary problems ⊠through focused and generous listening, an attitude of awe, and a joyful expectation to be surprised and delighted, even in lifeâs most challenging and painful circumstances.
Sheâs the author of four New York Times bestselling memoirs: Tell Me More, The Middle Place, Glitter and Glue, and Lift. Her most recent offering is a childrenâs book, Hello World, which celebrates the people in our lives and explores the meaningful connections that come from asking each other questions.
Her podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, is a library of conversational wisdom ranging from current events, to arts and entertainment, to psychology and philosophy, and an approach to spirituality and transcendence through the gift of everyday, ordinary life.
A master of conversational hospitality, downright funny storytelling, and journalistic listening, sheâs also the PBS television host of Tell Me More, and recently spoke on Bravery at the 40th annual TED Conference.
You can find her podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders wherever you listen to podcasts and her full library of resources at kellycorrigan.com.
Books and Media by Kelly Corrigan
Listen to Kelly Corrigan WondersVisit [KellyCorrigan.com](http://KellyCorrigan.comhttps://www.kellycorrigan.com/)Watch Tell Me More with Kelly Corrigan (PBS)Read Kellyâs books, such as Tell Me More, The Middle Place, Glitter and Glue, Hello World!, and Lift.Show Notes
Kelly Corriganâs storytelling and journalismKellyâs interviews with famous figures like Bono, Bryan Stevenson, David Byrne, and Melinda Gates.Celebrities are just people.âWhat happens almost instantly⊠is that they become people.ââYou are a never-to-be-repeated miracle.âCore questions to know a person: ââWho raised âyou, and where, and what happened âthat you still remember vividly.âFinding the extraordinary in the ordinaryâAll the quotidian facts of their life that make us equals in some âweird way, it puts you at ease.ââThere's this story about how being an adult is holding in one pocket that you are ashes to ashes, dust to dust, one of billions And holding in the other pocket that you are a never to be repeated miracle. And that adulthood is knowing when to pull out which piece of paper.âChildhood and parental influence reveal deep insights into a personâs adult self.Vivid childhood memories help shape storytelling and personal understanding.âA strong, detailed memory of an experience is an indicator that thereâs a lot there for you.âFamous people also deal with everyday concerns, which makes them relatable.âTheyâre just looking for a sandwich at lunchtime.âPerspective shifts with age, realizing that many things once thought important arenât.âThereâs 8 billion people here. It doesnât matter what I say and do.âEmbracing the paradox of being both insignificant and uniquely valuable.âBeing an adult is holding in one pocket that you are ashes to ashes, dust to dust⊠and in the other pocket that you are a never-to-be-repeated miracle.âKellyâs father, George Corrigan, was an enthusiastic listener and deeply engaging with others.âThe thing you need to know about me is Iâm George Corriganâs daughter.âHer fatherâs ability to find something lovable in everyone influenced her deeply.âHe wasnât looking for people just like him⊠he could become engaged in something he knew nothing about.âKelly Corrigan's TED Talk, "To Love Is to Be Brave"Her mother, Mary Corrigan, was structured, disciplined, and devoted to family. âShe went to church every single day.âPassed away six weeks before the interview, leaving a strong legacy.âI felt like I âhad been loved and people cared about me. Not excessively, not obsessively, but you know, like I was safe in the world.âGetting the love you needRecognizing bravery in everyday family life and personal struggles.Nick Hornbyâs experience of receiving a bookâthat filled him with a sense of pride and recognitionCoaching JV Lacrosse in Piedmont, CAâand seeing the impact of âseeing peopleâ and offering loving recognitionâthe power of making young girls feel seenParents handling difficult conversations with children require immense courage.âThereâs so much happening inside every house thatâs deeply brave and very complex.âKelly Corriganâs spiritual upbringingâraised Catholic and participated in church traditions but felt distanced from the institution because of patriarchy and abuse scandalsâThe dominant feeling I had in Catholicism was that thereâs this superstructure of men who tell you if youâre good or bad.âDisillusionment with the Catholic Church following abuse scandals.âMy religion is wonder.âFinds spiritual connection through nature, puzzles, painting, and observing small details.âI mean, I can really go crazy on a leaf.âPainting as a practice of attention: ââit slows you way down and you have to focus on something so minute.âHow to deal with emotional flooding through physical practices like walkingKelly Corrigan on Thrivingâdeeply connected to being in service to others.âI probably thrive best when Iâm in service to something.ââAnd then they say, âOkay, Kelly, we're ready. Action.â And then it's just me and this other person and the fullness of our attention to one another is thrilling by âvirtue of the fact that it's so damn rare. And sometimes when I'm finished, I'm like, there's almost like a romance to it. You know, like where I'm like, I, I love you. I love the experience that we just had.âClarity and purpose often come in caregiving moments, like her parentsâ passing.â90 minutes of pure connection.âPam Kingâs experience of her daughterâs hospitalization after a rare infectionKelly describes her experience of cancer in her thirties.Be mindful of what you consumeâboth media and information.âJunk in, junk out.âEngage in hobbies that disconnect from screens, such as painting and cooking.âRead poetry. Read it out loud.âYou should be really careful what you let in your head.âIf you're small in the frame, you're just going to move more freely. And if you're big in the frame, if you're the most important thing in your whole life, God help you.âPolitics and voting or acting against your own self-interestsKelly Corriganâs conversation with April Lawson on abortionRedefining braveryâAnd the reward is a full human experience.âThe meaning of familyThe experience of selling her childhood home after 55 years and how that raised questions about the meaning of family and connectionââWe bought it on July 7, 1969, and it sold on July 7, 2024.ââWill it hold? ⊠Is it durable? ⊠A place of comfort?ââI think most parents would say the biggest project they've ever undertaken was to try to build a family.ââIs this thing that was the most important thing I ever built durable?âThe emotional container of homeAn expansive emotional vocabularyâMore questions, fewer statements.âEncouraging curiosity in her children as a lifelong toolâAsk questions. Tell âme more. What else? Go on.ââJust ask questions. Nobodyâs listening. So just be the person who listens. Itâs like the lowest bar.âEnabling someone to get over themselvesCreating space for another personâs life, story, and emotions to unfoldâSo embrace intellectual humility and just assume that you do not have any relevant information to give them and that your only work is to keep saying, tell me more, what else go âon? And âthey'll talk their way into a solution.ââAnd so it's a little bit of like physiological adjustment. And then it's also this intellectual pause. And it's also a big emotional pause. So like, do your dishes slowly with a scent that you like. ⊠Itâs like a tiny reset.âLive takeaways from Pam and KellyâWonder is cheap and accessible and effective. Itâs like, free!âEmbody wonder into the power of listening.âPart of the reason why Christy Turlington is so beautiful is her posture. So sit up straight.ââ500 questions before you marry someone and commit your life to them is not a bad idea.ââJunk in, junk out. Like be careful what you put in your head. Your head is a sacred space. Do not put junk in there. Don't listen to junk. Don't watch junk. Don't read junk. Like, it's sacred. Think of it as like a cathedral. You wouldn't take like a shitty meatball sub and eat it in the backseat of a cathedral. You know what I mean?âââThe fullness of life involves this full cup that is full of joys and sorrows.âââIt only takes one person. It only takes one person to correct for a lot of absence. Doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. It doesn't mean it's going to wipe away every ounce of pain, but one person investing can compensate for a lot that's been missing.âDeep interviews as rare opportunities for pure connectionâItâs weirdly unusual to have a full hour of pure connection.âFacing fear and hardship as part of the full human experienceâA full human experience includes all the emotions at full maximum dosage.âFinding purpose in slowing down and being intentional with habitsâEvaluate your dietânot just food, but content, relationships, and daily habits.âAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Emotional health is deeply intertwined in an ongoing journey with spiritual health. This involves opening to our pain, grieving our trauma, and patiently cultivating a resilience that stabilizes and secures our relationships and our sense of self.
With compassion, pastoral presence, and emotional attunement, psychologist Dr. David Wang is using psychological and theological tools to help us understand and adapt to emotional realities, explore the wounds of our past, and find healing and strength through acceptance and grief.
In this conversation with David Wang, we discuss:
The difference between human development and spiritual formation and how to understand maturityThe centrality of relationships in human life and growth, and how thatâs grounded in divine relationality and our communion with GodHow to become friends with ourselves, offering self-compassion and being moved by our own sufferingThe impact of childhood trauma on adult emotional, psychological, and spiritual healthAnd finally, how a practice of grief can help us understand and work through traumatic experiences and move toward healing.Show Notes
Christian theology and formationA philosophical approach to theologically informed strategies for transformation and growthHow the relational aspects of God ground an approach to therapy and spiritual formationWhat are the markers of maturity?Relatedness and connection to others facilitates the process of human growth and developmentEmotional building blocks and relational capacities for maturityDave Wang on spiritual health and thrivingTheological and psychological frameworks of thrivingHolding the beautiful beside the brokenBecoming friends with ourselvesShow compassion, be moved by our own suffering, and accept limitations as we strive toward the hard work weâre all called to.Two paradoxical needs to achieve spiritual maturity and healthWe are made for relationships, but we also need independenceBalanceSpiritual and emotional maturityFormation through practice, education, and healthy developmentCan virtue be taught?Can maturity be educated?Can we learn to thrive and be spiritually healthy?In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, Dr. Gabor MatĂ© writes that âThe attempt to escape from pain is what creates more pain.âWhen our brains and our bodies go into survival modeAvoidance as a coping mechanism or strategyChildhood trauma in childhoodâWhen the psychic pain is so unbearable, the felt threat so intimidating, we mentally and emotionally try to escape.âChildhood trauma can reemerge in adult behaviors, relationships, habits, language, even physical illness or conditions.Do I have trauma that I havenât dealt with?The symptoms or signs of traumaHow to approach the process of seeking help and healing.Concrete practices that can help and heal traumatic experienceLearning to grieveChristian spiritual practices of prayerThe emotional practice of grief and acceptanceDr. Pam Kingâs Key TakeawaysHuman beings need both relationships and independence. And learning how to balance and integrate them is a marker of our maturity.Though we may try to escape from pain, to deal with trauma we need to practice acceptance and grief. Itâs a difficult and complex relational process that brings us closer to healing and wholeness.We can befriend ourselves in our pain through a practice of self-compassion.In this life, we have to hold beauty beside brokenness. Cultivating the capacity to do so is the hard work of growth into spiritual and emotional maturity, and the joyful journey of thriving.www.drdavidcwang.comhttps://www.seminaryformationproject.com/About David Wang
Dr. David Wang is a licensed psychologist and Associate Professor of Psychology at Fuller Theological Seminary, where heâs also the Cliff and Joyce Penner Chair for the Formation of Emotionally Healthy Leaders and scholar in residence at Fullerâs Center for Spiritual Formation. He speaks and trains leaders globally on trauma informed care. And he conducts research and teaches courses in Trauma Therapy, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Multicultural Psychology, and the Integration of Psychology and the Christian faith. He is also Pastor of Spiritual Formation at One Life City Church in Fullerton, California.
About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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âMeaning making is so fundamental to who we are as humans, and when thatâs ruptured, itâs devastating.â (Dr. Pam King, from this episode)
âSpiritual fortitude is different from resilience ⊠it helps us to realize that we still learn to live in the midst of suffering. ⊠It helps us metabolize our suffering.â (Dr. Jamie Aten, from this episode)
One of the hopeful things in the aftermath of the Los Angeles fires is how I have seen people within L.A. show up with and for each other. And I'm especially grateful for this audience because I know you are all people who care to show up with people, and for people. Thank you for being light in these hard times.
And I was talking with Evan Rosa. The producer and host of For the Life of the World (Yale Center for Faith & Culture) about the turbulent times that we are experiencing in Los Angeles.
And I was also speaking about experts who deal with trauma, disaster, psychological first aid, spiritual first aid, and also reflecting on my own experiences of watching the community around me evaporate. Evan had the great idea to invite me and Dr. Jamie Aten, the head of Wheaton's Humanitarian Disaster Institute, for an interview.
And I think you'll resonate with a lot of the themes of this episode, even if you aren't living in the midst of a disaster.
We all have challenges, and these are great moments to dig deep and live connected with each other and for each other in purposeful ways.
So what follows is sharing our interview with Evan Rosa. Thanks for listening.
Show Notes (from the episode page of For the Life of the World)
Disaster preparedness is sort of an oxymoron. Disaster is the kind of indiscriminate calamity that only ever finds us ill-equipped to manage. And if you are truly prepared, youâve probably averted disaster.
Thereâs a big difference between the impact of disaster on physical, material lifeâand its outsized impact on mental, emotional, and spiritual life.
Personal disasters like a terminal illness, natural disasters like the recent fires that razed southern Californian communities, the impact of endless, senseless wars ⊠these all cause a pain and physical damage that can be mitigated or rebuilt. But the worst of these cases threaten to destroy the very meaning of our lives.
No wonder disaster takes such a psychological and spiritual toll. Thereâs an urgent need to find or even make meaning from it. To somehow explain it, justify why God would allow it, and tell a grand story that makes sense from the senseless.
These are difficult questions, and my guests today both have personal experience with disaster. Dr. Pam King is the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology, and the Executive Director the Thrive Center. Sheâs an ordained Presbyterian minister, and she hosts a podcast on psychology and spirituality called With & For. Dr. Jamie Aten is a disaster psychologist and disaster ministry expert, helping others navigate mass, humanitarian, and personal disasters with scientific and spiritual insights. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute Wheaton College, where he holds the Blanchard Chair of Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership. He is author of A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience.
In this conversation, Pam King and Jamie Aten join Evan Rosa to discuss:
Each of their personal encounters with disastersâboth fire and cancerThe psychological study of disasterThe personal impact of disaster on mental, emotional, and spiritual healthThe difference between resilience and fortitudeAnd the theological and practical considerations for how to live through disastrous events.About Pam King
Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. She hosts the With & For podcast, and you can follow her @drpamking.
About Jamie Aten
Jamie D. Aten is a disaster psychologist and disaster ministry expert. He helps others navigate mass, humanitarian, and personal disasters with scientific and spiritual insights. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute and Disaster Ministry Conference and holds the Blanchard Chair of Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership at Wheaton College. And heâs the author of A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience.
Show Notes
Humanitarian Disaster InstituteSpiritual First AidJamie Atenâs A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and ResilienceThe Thrive Center at Fuller SeminaryPam Kingâs personal experience fighting fires in the Eaton Fire in January 20255,000 homes destroyed55 schools and houses of worship are goneâNeighborhoods are annihilated âŠâJamie Aten offers an overview of the impact of disasters on humanity, and the human response1985: 400% increase in natural disasters globallyJapan 2011 TĆhoku earthquake and tsunamiHaiti 2010 earthquakePhysical, emotional, spiritualInfrastructural impacts that set up disastersUSAID supportJamie Atenâs experience during Hurricane KatrinaPersonal disastersJamie Atenâs experience with colon cancerâEvacuation ImpossibleâImpact of disaster on personal sense of thrivingThriving vs survivingUnderstanding traumaCollective traumatic eventsThe historically Black multigenerational community in AltadenaWhat constitutes thriving?Thriving as adaptive growth: with and for othersSelf-care is not just me-care, but we-care.Trauma brain and the cognitive impacts of disasterThe psychological study of disaster: grapefruit vs beachballHumanitarian Disaster InstituteSpiritual First AidA rupture of meaning makingPlace and spirituality and the impact of disaster on sense of placeBethlehem pastor Munther Isaacâs âChrist in the RubbleâFinding meaning in both the restructuring or rebuilding, but also in the rubble itselfHope embodied in serviceEverything is a cognitive loadMiroslav Volf and Ryan McAnnally-Linzâs The Home of God: A Brief Story of EverythingPsychological and trauma-informed careâOne of the things that we found was that when people received positive spiritual support, that they reported lower levels of trauma, lower levels of depression and lower levels of anxiety.âBLESS CPRBLESS: Biological, Livelihood, Emotional, Social, SpiritualâWhatâs the most pressing need?âSpiritual healthSpirituality and our ultimate sources of meaningTranscendenceLament as a practice for dealing with disasterPrayer or sacred readingsMeaning making and suffering:âElizabeth Hall (Biola University) and Crystal Park (University of Connecticut)Baton Rouge Flood 2016Navigating sufferingReligion in disaster mental healthFaith as a predictor for resilienceMeaning making outside of religionMr. Rogers: âLook for the helpersâBest disaster preparedness: âGet to know your neighbor.ââProximity alone is not what it takes to become a neighbor.âNeighbors helping neighborsManaging burnout in helpersâSpiritual self-aidâ instead of âself-careâSelf-care is like surfingâGod holding the fragmented pieces of meââGodâs love is with me.âSpiritual fortitude in personal and natural disastersProduction Notes
This podcast featured Jamie Aten and Pam KingEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Zoë Halaban, Kacie Barrett & Emily BrookfieldA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School **https://faith.yale.edu/about**Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: **https://faith.yale.edu/give**About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Our brains hold our relational historyâall the joys, all the ruptures, all the repairs. And even in the most difficult childhood or parenting circumstances, the science of relationships and connection can give us hope for whole-brain and whole-life transformation.
Therapist, bestselling author, and momâDr. Tina Payne Bryson is seeking a connection revolution that brings neurobiology and practical relational wisdom to bear on both how we were parented, how we parent, and how we relate throughout our lifespan.
In this conversation with Tina Bryson, we discuss:
The science of childhood relational development and growth into strong, adaptive adultsThe brain as our most social organâcapable of holding a lifetime of relational and emotional historyHow to emotionally co-regulate with another person to achieve a calm, peaceful, and vibrant relationshipNeuroplasticity and our ability to change with intention toward our deepest held valuesAnd we explore how the science of connection, attachment, and interpersonal neurobiology sheds light on how we were parented, and impacts how we might parent ourselves and how we relate to everyone.Books by Dr. Tina Bryson
The Way of Play (Tinaâs latest book!)The Whole-Brain ChildNo-Drama DisciplineThe Yes BrainThe Power of Showing UpFollow Tina Bryson
TinaBryson.com Instagram X The Center for Connection
Show Notes
Dr. Tina Bryson: an expert in neurobiology, parenting, child development, and attachment theory.Highlighting Tinaâs unique perspective as both a clinician and science-engaged researcher.This conversation focuses on parenting, but itâs relevant for everyoneâwhether youâre a leader, mentor, or someone reflecting on your own upbringingThe importance of connection, attunement, and emotional regulation in todayâs world."I feel so aware that this is not an easy time to be a child or a teenager in the world."Kids today face unique challenges that are very different from previous generations:More stimulation, information, and pressure than ever before.Earlier onset of puberty and adolescence, with young adults taking longer to launch."We often talk about the challenges of youth, which are absolutely real, but we donât want to forget that in many ways, the world is actually safer."Positive shifts in youth well-being: fewer teen pregnancies; safer environments (cars, car seats, public spaces)l greater awareness of mental health, substance use, and emotional well-beingWhat Do You Say?: How to Talk with Kids to Build Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home, by William Stixrud and Ned JohnsonThe brain is a social organâwe are profoundly shaped by the people around us."A huge contributor to some of the struggles youth are having is because their grownups are not thriving."Interpersonal neurobiology teaches that childrenâs well-being is tied to their caregiversâ ability to regulate their own emotions.Takeaway: Parents who are anxious, reactive, or dysregulated create environments where their children struggle to regulate their emotions."The greatest gift we can give each other is a calm presence."âHistory is not destiny.âEmotional offloading or outsourcingSafe haven or safe harbor: cozy, safe, calmâMy mom will never listen.âUnderstanding teenagersâPlease donât chase your child and force connection.âNon-eye contact feels less intrusive and theyâll open up moreUnderstanding Attachment & The Four Sâs: Safe, Seen, Soothed, SecureSecure attachment is a key predictor of well-being in children and adults.Attachment is built through repeated experiences of the Four Sâs:Safe: "Do I feel physically and emotionally secure with this person?"Seen: "Does this person understand and acknowledge my emotions and experiences?"Soothed: "When Iâm in distress, does this person help me feel better?"Secure: "Do I trust that this person will be there for me consistently?"Set an intention: "When my child walks through the door, I want them to feel at rest, safe, and accepted."Practical Parenting Tip: If your child pushes you away, donât force connection. Instead, say: "I can see you need some space right now. Iâm here whenever youâre ready to talk."Managing Teen Independence: When teens ask for space, donât take it personally. Instead, try: "Iâm here if you want to talk later.""Would you be open to a short walk or helping me in the kitchen?"The basics of attachment theory: John Bowlby and Mary AinsworthMama BearsNot just brain, but whole nervous systemSecure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World, by Sue Marriot and Ann Kelley"Without awareness, we donât have choice."âDan SiegelHistory is not destiny. We can rewire our brains and create new, healthier patterns in relationships.The availability of your presence creates a secure environmentRegulation & Emotional ResilienceDefinition of Regulation: The ability to monitor and modify emotional states rather than reacting impulsively.Itâs NOT about being emotionlessâitâs about responding intentionallyâWhen we mess up, the research shows that as long as we make the repair, the rupture itself was actually beneficial.âTina Brysonâs Fragility Formula: Adversity minus support or plus too much support = fragility. Adversity plus the right amount of support = resilience.Real-Life Example: The Yahtzee IncidentTina shares a personal story of losing her temper while playing Yahtzee with her kids.She repaired the rupture by apologizing, taking responsibility, and asking for a do-over.Pink Flags vs. Red FlagsPink Flags: Subtle signs that youâre getting dysregulated (irritability, sarcasm, tension)Red Flags: Full-blown loss of control (yelling, throwing things, shutting down)The Three Râs of Parenting: Regulation, Responding, RepairingThe Window of ToleranceGentle Parenting vs âResponsive, Respectful, Regulated, Intentional parentingRegulation: Managing your emotions firstResponding: Engaging with your child in a safe, attuned wayRepairing: Acknowledging when you mess up and making amendsReduce pressureâkids should not feel they must "perform" to be loved.The Power of Breathwork: The Physiological SighQuick, evidence-based technique to reduce stress and reset the nervous system.Take a double inhale through the nose, followed by a longer exhale."Itâs the quickest thing we know to calm the nervous system."Non-eye-contact conversations (e.g., driving in the car) help teens feel less pressured.The science of thriving vs. surviving: "Survive and thrive are not separate categories. What we do in survival moments can lead to thriving."The River of Well-Being: A Person is Like a Boat on a RiverThe FACES Model for Well-Being (essentially a definition of thriving)Flexible: Open to change and new ideasAdaptive: Able to adjust based on new circumstancesCoherent: Emotional and cognitive stabilityEnergized: Engaged and present in lifeStable: Grounded and consistentFamily Dinner Time: Keeping it light, being more presentPractical Exercise to Regulate Emotions: The Deep Physiological SighTurn down the reactivity of your nervous systemâThe key is: Make your exhale longer than your inhale.ââAt his worst is when he needs you the most.âPre-frontal cortex development: Not mature until late-20s.âThe prefrontal cortex is changeable throughout the lifespan.âThe Yes Brain: How to Cultivate Courage, Curiosity, and Resilience in Your Child, Dan Siegel and Tina Payne BrysonThe YES Brain Approach: Four pillars that cultivate resilience in children BRIE (like the cheese)Balance (emotional regulation)Resilience (bouncing back from challenges)Insight (self-awareness and growth mindset)Empathy (understanding othersâ experiences)"Thriving isnât about avoiding hardshipsâitâs about learning how to navigate them."Recognize your influence: "Your child's nervous system mirrors yours. Take care of yourself first."Discipline and moralityHarsh, punitive discipline doesnât change behavior or develop a moral compass. It teaches them to hide the behavior.Healthy Guilt vs Toxic ShameâThe way we donât get kicked out of our group is our conscience.âGuilt âis one of your superpowers.ââNo one can lose each otherâs love.âGive yourself permission to wait and not respond in the moment.âMy number one job is to keep you safe.âNo lecturing. âWhat do you think I would say here?â âWhatâs your plan to keep yourself safe?âTina Bryson on Faith and SpiritualityHealthy spirituality leads to feeling safe, seen, soothed, and secure.The power of narrative and journaling: Making sense of our lives and integrating our brains*Parenting from the Inside Out,* Dan Siegel and Mary Hartzell*The Power of Showing Up,* Dan Siegel and Tina BrysonPractical Exercise: Acknowledging, Noticing, and AcceptingâNegative emotions does not mean somethingâs wrong.ââEmotions are important information, but they donât make the final decision.âAre your emotions making the decision?Curiosity in order to bring softness and nurture.Practice daily regulation: Set a personal cue (e.g., getting in the car) to check in with your emotions.Embrace repair: "Making mistakes in parenting is inevitableâwhat matters is how you repair them."Parenting is about progress, not perfection. "Every small shift you make has a ripple effect on your childâs well-being."Pam Kingâs Key TakeawaysWeâre inherently wired for connection, and our brains store all of our relational history.Rupture is inevitable, but our capacity for repair can strengthen our bonds with each other when we make the effort to reconnect.Thriving involves and integrates all our most intense emotions. We get closer to thriving when we can learn to regulate and integrate our inner emotional experience.Attuning and paying attention to our nervous system is a core emotional and relational skillâand goes a long way in healthy, intimate relationships.We were all children once. We were all parented, for better or for worse. Learning to integrate every aspect of our relational history can keep us on the path to thriving.About Tina Bryson
Dr. Tina Bryson is an expert in applying interpersonal neurobiology and neuropsychology to maybe the most central part of human life: our closest, most intimate relationships. A bestselling co-author (with Dan Siegal) of THE WHOLE-BRAIN CHILD and NO-DRAMA DISCIPLINE, she has written several other books on parenting and the brain. Her latest book on the science of play came out in January 2025.
Tina is a psychotherapist and the Founder and Executive Director of The Center for Connection. She speaks and advocates widely, has appeared across media outlets like TIME Magazine, âGood Morning America,â Huffington Post,Redbook, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal.
Her doctoral research explored attachment science, childrearing theory, and the emerging field of interpersonal neurobiology. But Tina emphasizes that before sheâs a parenting educator, or a researcher, sheâs a mom.
Tina is an absolutely brilliant and motivating and encouraging communicator, breaking down the science of connection in a way thatâs clear, realistic, humorous, and immediately helpful.
For more resources from Tina, including her books, and science-packed relationship tips, visit https://www.thecenterforconnection.org/ and tinabryson.com.
About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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To realize MLKâs vision of a Beloved Community, weâre all called to live from a moral conscience that interconnects and permeates society with justice and peace.
Working at the intersection of politics, religion, and education, Dr. Lerone Martin of Stanford University is carrying forward the legacy of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in a social and historical context desperately in need of renewed moral imagination, connection across racial and economic divides, and the transformative power of love.
In this conversation with Lerone Martin, we discuss:
How his spirituality integrates with the meaning of education and formationThe legacy of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., his vision of thriving and justice, and the relevance of his life and writings for the contemporary worldThe role of emotion and affect and music in Christian faith and spiritualityWe dive into the core elements of MLKâs famous âLetter from a Birmingham JailâWe explore the joint power of courage and love in non-violent actionWe look at practical insights about the kind of morality that leads to thriving,And we close by asking the question posed in Martin Luther Kingâs final book, Where do we go from here?About Dr. Lerone Martin
Dr. Lerone Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, and the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University.
Heâs a historian of 20th-century religion and a cultural commentator. Heâs written books about White Christian Nationalism in the FBI, as well as the making of modern African American Christianityâas well as a book about MLKâs adolescence and his early sense of vocation and calling.
He stays deeply connected to teaching and community service, teaching the âWhy College?â freshman course at Stanford, inspiring underserved high school students in Los Angeles and St. Louis, and developing programming and teaching courses for the incarcerated.
Visit the King Institute online at kinginstitute.stanford.edu or follow him on X @DirectorMLK.
Show Notes
Lerone Martinâs spiritual background and early Pentecostal faith, concerned with personal moralityTeaching and PreachingâWhy College?â Course at Stanford UniversityIndividual Conscience and Life in the Beloved CommunityJosiah Royce (1913) coined the term âBeloved CommunityâLerone Martin on: What is thriving?Connections to communityThriving as living out your vocation, love God, neighbor, and selfSet apart for somethingâSet apart for the beloved community.âWhat gave MLK his strength and resilience?MLKâs adolescence and early sense of vocation for ministry, pastoral service, and leadershipWorking in a Hartford, Connecticut kitchen to serve others and catch a vision for Beloved CommunityThe rediscovery and inspiration of MLK on young people todayReferences to Old Testament scripture in civil rights languageCentrality of âOne Loveâ in MLKâs political activismâLet justice roll down!âBenjamin Elijah Mays: The love of God and love of humanity are one love.âThriving and living with dignity and respectOne love in a pluralistic settingâWe canât just rely on expediency.âValues and guiding North Star for moralityTeaching as a guide for studentsHis spirituality was shaped by his motherâs moral and cultural formation and his fatherâs ministry.MLK and musicâThe musicality of his voice.âSpirituality as a jazz manâI Have Been to the Mountaintopâ (Delivered by MLK in Memphis on April 3, 1968, a day before his assassination)âIâve seen the Promised land.ââThe musicality of âhis voice moves people.âWhat is the role of music in Lerone Martinâs life: hip hop poetry, awe in gospel music, and improvisation and teamwork in jazzâMusic reminds me to be in my body.âNon-violent direct action theoryThe grit of practitioners of non-violent resistanceââThere's really nothing passive or weak about non-violent resistance.âââKing would see a love as an action. For him, it's love in action because the means that you â use have to be commensurate âor match the ends that you seek.âDespite the fact that someoneâs oppressing you, you still love them.âChanging how we define citizenshipThe effectiveness of non-violent campaignsâLetter from a Birmingham Jailâ (April 16, 1963)âIn no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.âThe four steps of a non-violent campaign: (1) collection of facts, (2) negotiation, dialogue, disagreement, or communication, (3) self-purification and self-reflection to cultivate resilience, and (4) then direct action.When does patience become passivity?How do we live out âLetter from Birmingham Jailâ?Read it regularly, recognize the difference between just and unjust lawsPractice civil disobedience, but willingly, openly, and non-violentlyThe power of sacred textsCultivating the will to do justice, via love, courage, and disciplineWhere Do We Go from Here?: Chaos or Community?A path toward spiritual life or spiritual death?Cultivating civic virtue, bringing it back into our politics and our homesâMeans must become commensurate to the ends we seek.âVirtue and valuesPam Kingâs Key TakeawaysFor justice to roll down, we need to see our interdependence, interconnectedness, and live into the unity of One Love.Thereâs a difference between just and unjust laws, the challenge is in cultivating the moral sense to tell the difference, and the courage to do something about injustice.Furthermore, the civil disobedience of MLK was grounded in the wisdom of community, accountability, and integrity.Courage and love are deeply connected, and work together to guide us toward love of neighbor, stranger, and enemy.Pursuing justice takes true grit and an agency that emerges from deep character formation, spiritual connection, and an unwavering commitment to realizing the beloved community.About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Science can change your life. The more we study what makes people develop, grow, learn, and flourishâthe more we see how the practical application of scientific findings can help us transform our life and experienceâinto a life of value, meaning, purpose and true thriving.
Yale psychologist Laurie Santos has spent her career investigating the human brain and how it thrives. From her popular Yale course to her podcast, The Happiness Lab, sheâs communicating actionable and hopeful lessons for how to build lasting habits, cultivate self-compassion, manage complex emotions, and realign our lives toward meaningful happiness.
In this conversation with Dr. Laurie Santos, we discuss:
How the mental health crisis affecting young people changed her, and how she teaches psychologyHow our brains lie to usThe role of positive and negative emotions in a good lifeHow feeling good can lead to doing goodThe psychological and relational benefits of faith and spiritualityAnd she offers practical insights, science-backed guidance, and powerful exercises for managing misalignment and difficult emotions.Laurie Santos on how to activate psychological science for more happiness and meaning (from the episode):
âSome of these factors that we know scientifically do work. From simple behavior changes like being more social, doing nice things for others, just healthy habits âlike sleeping and moving your body, âto mindset shifts, to becoming a little bit more present, to becoming more other oriented, to becoming more grateful, more self-compassionate, and so on.
There are shifts that we can make that can have a huge effect on how we actually interact in the world.
We need to understand that we're not perfect, we're just human. And we will mess up a little bit too. But it's really the journey that ââmatters.â
About Laurie Santos
Dr. Laurie Santos is the Chandrika and Ranjan Tandon Professor of Psychology at Yale University and host of The Happiness Lab podcast. Dr. Santos is an expert on the science of happiness. Her Yale course, Psychology and the Good Life, teaches students how the science of psychology can provide important hints about how to make wiser choices and live a life thatâs happier and more fulfilling. Her course recently became Yaleâs most popular course in over 300 years, with almost one of our four students at Yale enrolled. Her course has been featured in numerous news outlets including the New York Times, NBC Nightly News, The Today Show, GQ Magazine, Slate and O! Magazine. A winner of numerous awards both for her science and teaching, she was recently voted as one of Popular Science Magazineâs âBrilliant 10â young minds, and was named in Time Magazine as a âLeading Campus Celebrity.â Her podcast, The Happiness Lab, has over 100 million downloads.
Listen to The Happiness Lab podcast
Visit [drlauriesantos.com](http://drlauriesantos.comhttps://www.drlauriesantos.com/)
Show Notes
How Laurie got up close with the mental health crisis affecting young peopleSelf-careThe history of The Happiness Course at Yale UniversityThe impact of COVID-19âThings have gotten worse.âStatistics: More than 40% of college students report they are too depressed to functionAnxieties provoked by technology (Jonathan Haidt and Jean Twenge)Stress levels across the developmental lifespanHow our brains lie to usBehavioral changes and healthy habitsMindset shifts and dispositional transformationsThe importance of science for validating spiritual beliefs, values, and practicesSometimes spiritual traditions get some things right, but can also be wrong, and need empirical studyManifestationImagining the positive outcome isnât as good as planning out the if-then strategy.âThe science can help us with the nuance so we can really get things right.âLaurie Santos defines happinessPsychological approach to happiness: âsubjective well-beingâPositive vs Negative Emotions and the role they play in a good lifeWhy is happiness helpful to us? Is happiness really the goal?The âfeel-good, do-good effectâAny cause-based activism requiresLaurie Santos answers: What is thriving?Mindset and behavioral changeNon-judgmental responseSelf-compassion and curiosityâItâs really the journey that matters.âHelping othersBurnout and Self-careStressors that lead to burnoutThe impact of rest on productivityReligion and Happiness: Are religious people happier than non-religious?Social connectionGrowing up CatholicComparing Beliefs vs Behaviors and MindsetsItâs less about religious beliefs and more about religious practicesCommunal PracticesTranscendent EmotionsOversimplifying transcendent emotionsAwe and Wonder often come along with a disturbance, such as feeling very small, feeling out of control, feeling disoriented, feeling overwhelmed, etc.Dacher Keltnerâs tourist studies âDraw yourself in your sceneâFeeling tinier, and yet more connectedâIâm part of everything, but I am nothing. How do I deal with that?âEvolution and the human mindWhat is our brain for? Itâs for survival. Itâs not for feeling great.Negativity BiasKent Barrage: Neuroscience of Hedonic PleasureLiking vs WantingDrugs of AbuseâIf there was one thing I could change about the brain it would be âŠâPsychedelic drugs such as psilocybinDavid Yaden (Johns Hopkins) on psychedelic drugsWe can change (and a lot of people are shocked by that)Canât change vs. Changing circumstancesSonya LibermurskyâYes, you can change, not by changing circumstances, but by changing your habits.âNetflix and a glass of wine? Or something healthier?Introducing new habits over timeMeditation Practice: Cultivating Presence When Things are Feeling BadâNauseously OptimisticâTara Brach and Radical AcceptanceR.A.I.N. (Recognize, Allow, Investigate, and Nurture)Fundamental needsNatural selection and cravingsCraving doomscrolling on Reddit*Thriving with Stone Age Minds: Evolutionary Psychology, Christian Faith, and the Quest for Human Flourishing* (Justin Barrett and Pam King)Self-flagellation, frustration, and criticizing ourselvesKristin Neff on Self-CompassionSelf-Compassion: Mindfulness, Common Humanity, and Self-KindnessHow to talk to yourselfSelf-compassion is helpful for cultivating new habitsPractice: Self-Compassionate TouchâThe beauty of self-touch is that your brain is stupid. It doesnât know whoâs touching you.âTaking stock and paying attention to our own emotional dashboardsNew Yearâs Advice: A moment of fresh starts and new beginningsAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Christmas is about the love of God given to us in Christ. Love compels us forward through darkness and lightâenabling us to grow and change, connect and relate, forgive and let go, and make a difference and seek justice.
This December, weâre celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam Kingâconsidering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year.
Weâd be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute.
Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!
Show Notes
Jesus said, "As I have loved you, you must love one another.ââLove compels us forward through darkness and light, with its power to connect and heal.âLove for God, love for others, and love for yourselfYou are beloved.Breathing practiceAttuning to sensations of love in your bodyWhat are these feelings of love saying about you, your values, your beliefs?What does love say about your deepest beliefs about what matters most in life?Who needs love from you today?How do you live out love in the world?What is one thing you can do to lean into love or to live out love?About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Joy is more than a feeling. Itâs a virtue. And itâs something we can cultivate. We live into joy when we encounter who or what matters most to us. Itâs associated with our life's deepest yearnings and connection.
This December, weâre celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam Kingâconsidering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year.
Weâd be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute.
Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!
Show Notes
The Shepherdâs Candleâsymbolizing joyJoy is more than a feeling. Itâs a virtue.Cultivating joy through encountering who and what matters most to usBreathing practiceLoving and joyful presence of GodHow are you experiencing joy in your body?Joyâs insight into our values, opening us up to creativity and connectionDoes pursuing joy require you to step out of your normal routine?What can you do to bring joy to another?About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Peace can be elusive, but if set an intention to be instruments of peaceâboth in offering it and experiencing itâit has the power to transform us. Peace is often an indication that life is in balance and going well, either in the immediate or the eternal sense.
This December, weâre celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam Kingâconsidering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year.
Weâd be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute.
Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!
Show Notes
âPeace can be elusive.âPeace is more than a feelingâitâs an indication that âall is well.âConsider the Prince of Peace, who comes to dwell with us this ChristmasBreathing practiceWhat brings you peace?Where do you feel peace in your body?What has been preventing peace for you?âPeace is often an indication that life is in balance, and that life is going well, either in the immediate or the eternal sense.âSetting an intention to pursue peaceâPeace I give you.ââMay the peace of God be with you and pervade your life this week as you anticipate the coming of the Prince of Peace this Christmas.âAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Hope is powerful. Itâs more than a feeling. Itâs a foundation for getting us through even the darkest of times. The season of Advent provides the opportunity to attune to hope, become aware of our deepest hopes and desires, and then align our lives to hope.
This December, weâre celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam Kingâconsidering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year.
Weâd be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute.
Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!
Show Notes
âHope has the power to transform and involves our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.âTake hold of hope with simple steps of attunement, awareness, alignment, and activationBreath workAttune, in order to feel sensations of hope in your body.How are you experiencing or feeling hope in your body?Notice, donât judge.What do the feelings of hope say about your deepest desires?Where does your hope come from?How can you align your day with your hope?How can you align with hope to reflect God's desires for you?What is one thing you can do today to lean forward into hope?About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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SEASON 2 is launching January 6, 2025! Subscribe to With & For today!
How can we reconnect, repair, and rebuild our fractured world?
We need grounded scientific insight that we connect us with what is good, true, and beautiful. We need wider perspective that guides us toward purpose, community, wisdom, and spiritual health.
Developmental psychologist, ordained minister, and professor, Dr. Pam King introduces Season 2 of With & For, which launches on January 6, 2025. Inviting guests with expertise in psychology, spirituality, and leadership, this new season will tackle practical questions with courage, openness, and hopeâfocusing on insights, stories, and exercises for how to reconnect, repair, and rebuild our fractured world. How to find psychological, emotional, and spiritual health, and how to find one another in love.
This season, episode topics include:
The power of positive emotions like awe, wonder, curiosity, and transcendence, along with other research backed practices that encourage them.
The dangers of spiritual and religious abuse, the psychological impact of childhood relational trauma, and how to heal from the wounds of the past.
The neuroscience behind our emotional health, its impact on how we develop, learn, grow, and make meaning.
The science behind core human relationships, the emotional vulnerability and power dynamics of intimate romantic relationships, as well as the challenge of parenting and being parented.
Why and how our moral lives and cultivating virtues are fundamental to joy and thriving.
The legacies of racial justice and consider the spiritual and moral underpinnings of nonviolent resistance. The healing properties of art, creativity, and beauty, and how they offer comfort and strength beyond words.
And much more.
Subscribe to With & For wherever you listen to podcasts and visit us online at thethrivecenter.org/podcast.
About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Dr. Pam King joins longtime friend, entrepreneur, and inspiring podcast host Nada Jones on for a conversation on thriving and self-discovery in mid-life. Nada Jones is the founder and CEO of Liberty Road, a podcast and organization for entrepreneurial women focused on growth, wisdom, sharing stories, and finding purpose. She has a regular podcast where women in the middle third of their lives share their journeys of self-discovery.
Together they discuss Pamâs approach to thriving as a developmental psychologist; the adventure of women entering and exploring the middle third of their lives; Pamâs definition of thriving; and what might get in the way of thriving during this challenging period of life.
Pam shares resources from psychology and spirituality that can provide for people to grow and support others, describing three pillars for a thriving life: individual, relational, and aspirational.
Show Notes
About Liberty Road podcast and organizationâPursuing your future doesn't end at 40. In fact, it may mark the beginning of knowing who you are, what you're capable of, and what you really want.âWhat is the Thrive Center?The intersection of psychological science and spiritual wisdomâThe irony of the term of mental health is that it's actually defined by mental illness, or pathology, or depression, or anxiety.âWhat can go right with people?Explicit interest in spirituality: âThereâs gotta be something more.ââA historical rift between religiously or spiritual things and psychological science.âResearch-backed spiritualityâA thriving life is a life on-purpose.ââItâs not just the journey, itâs the direction.âThriving at the intersection of three pillars of life: individual, relational, and aspirational.âIn the deepest part of my being, I really want to enable people to thrive in a very holistic way. And live more fully into who they are. Living more authentically, living with deeper connection and, and with deeper purpose.âNot just another self-help platformâHow do you help us understand purpose or thriving when maybe we haven't put ourselves first?âBalance and moving through extremesLife is fluid and dynamicMiddle age as a period of fluxLooking at opportunities in challengesMotherhood and service for othersFinding joyExamples for each three pillarsStay-at-home mom moving into a new phase of lifeâStart with loving ourselves and giving ourselves grace.ââBring out the best in yourself. Love yourself.âWhat images come to mind as positive memories of competency and strength?Obligations in relationshipsWhat are we actually living out? Is it consistent with our values?Change your environment or change yourself.What is spirituality?âSpirituality is peopleâs perception and experience of transcendence. ⊠But also our response to transcendence.âSpiritual health and psychologyââNot all spirituality is helpful or healthful.ââI think we're living in a spiritually void time.ââHave we deprived ourselves of something in an effort to not deprive ourselves of anything?âPam King on life in the âmiddle thirdâReprioritizing and making professional shiftsWhat keeps you grounded? 10 minutes of silence of meditation.What are you currently reading? Open and Unafraid by W. David Taylor / Strength That Remains, by Tracy KidderWhat is a skincare musthave? SBLA Facial WandWhat has surprised you about the good life? Thereâs more losses than anticipated.What has your work done to liberate you? Reworking and reconsidering purpose; âDiving deep in conversations with people has been liberating and wonderful.âAbout Nada Jones
Nada Jones is the founder and CEO of Liberty Road, a podcast and organization for entrepreneurial women focused on growth, wisdom, sharing stories, and finding purpose. Discover more of her work at www.liberty-road.com.
About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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âHow do I grow as a fully differentiated person in relationship and increasing intimacy, increasing contribution with the world around me?â (Dr. Pam King, from the episode)
Dr. Pam King joins the Yale Center for Faith & Culture podcast, For the Life of the World, for a discussion of human development, purpose, relational intimacy, and spiritual connectionâall through the integration of developmental psychology and theology.
With host Evan Rosa (Yale Center for Faith & Culture), she reflects on human change and plasticity in the midst of a whole complex life; relational attachment for the sake of intimacy and exploration and ultimate purpose or meaning; the proper place of self-love; Godâs enabling and loving presence as the ultimate secure attachment figure; the importance of learning, gaining skills, and the pursuit of expertise; the prospects of regaining emotional regulation through relationships; the game changing impact of deliberate psychological and spiritual practices to move us well beyond surviving to a life of thriving.
Announcement! With & For Season 2 is dropping on January 6, 2025! And until then, every Monday from September to December, weâre sharing some shorter clips, practical features, and other talks or interviews featuring Dr. Pam King, to offer insight into what it means to thrive and pursue spiritual health.
Show Notes
Martin Buberâs I and ThouJohn Bowlby and Attachment TheoryTrolickâs Still Face Experiment (Video)Justin Barrett & Pamela Ebstyne King, Thriving with Stone Age Minds: Evolutionary Psychology, Christian Faith, and the Quest for Human FlourishingDevelopmental psych as the observational study of human change in the midst of a whole life of complexityPlasticity of the human speciesRelational attachment for the sake of intimacy and explorationThe Impact of environment on genetic expressionLaw if reciprocityFullness of creation, redemption and consummationTheology as establishing ends, and psychology as developing towards gods purposesHow psychology aids in the process of becoming our full selves as selfhoodThe proper place of self-loveGodâs enabling and loving presenceThriving as psychological, vs Flourishing as philosophicalMeaningful life in eudaimonic and hedonistic termsImago deiâBack to the futureââunderstanding the end toward the beginningReading psychology through a teleological lensLinear stage theories of developmentLife as a series of cyclesWe can have a telos as a dynamic processThriving as pursuing the fullness of selfReciprocity beyond ourselves when life is hardColossians and Jesus as the perfect image of GodConformity is not uniformityParenting as helping children to become their unique selvesTelos as inhabiting the self, the relational, and the aspirationalâpurpose is found at the intersection of all threeWilliam Damon on purposePurpose as enduring actionable goal, meaningful to the self and contributing beyond the selfLearning, gaining skills, and pursuit of expertiseMeaning making as a dynamic life-long projectOrienting life in the present moment by tethering to a consummate vision of the futureSociality as inherent to human natureGoals: self, expertise acquisition, and what we aspire toRoles: who we are in our social networksSouls: what ideals are most dearly held and most meaningfulThe fundamental rejection of pre autonomy and independence; embrace of our relational selvesHow malleable our brains are through intentional practicesMaking meaning can change your brainsSurviving vs thrivingAttachment and regulationRegaining emotional regulation through relationshipsThe game changing impact of deliberate psychological and spiritual practicesâintention, motivation, and goalsPossible cutoff point â The relation of psychological science and theologyPsychology as a God-given tool to enable thriving and flourishingKnown, loved, and loving othersThe role of suffering and loss as part of the thriving processFor the cynical and jaded: thriving that is real to loss, grief, vulnerability, and daring to thriveProduction Notes
This podcast featured Pamela Ebstyne KingEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Macie Bridge and Kaylen YunA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/giveâThis episode was made possible in part by the generous support of Blueprint 1543. For more information, visit Blueprint1543.org.About the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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If we want to bear good fruit in our lives, we must have strong roots. Good fruit must lead to love. As the Rev. Dr. Pam King offers in this episode, âRoot into love so that you can live out love.â
Speaking on Jesusâs parable of the Tree and Its Fruits in Luke 6, she draws on theological and psychological resources to reflect on the role of active and intentional love in a thriving life.
Luke 6:43-45: âNo good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes bramble bush. The good person, out of the good treasure of the heart, produces good. And the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil, for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks.â
Show Notes
Luke 6:43-45: âNo good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes bramble bush. The good person, out of the good treasure of the heart, produces good. And the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil, for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks.ââI believe this scripture ⊠redefines reality and redefines fruit.âTrue love in *The Princess Bride â âWuv. Twoo Wuv.ââTrue love is the greatest thing in the world.ââRoot into love so that you can live out love.âWhat is thriving? What New Testament parables of Jesus express thriving?Redefining âGoodâWhat is good?âGoodâ is a four-letter wordThereâs always a right answer in Sunday School: âJesusâDefining the Relationship? Or Define the Reality?A reordering of valuesâ⊠a radical reordering of values and a re sanctification of sanctioned behaviors. He describes the kind of conduct that is appropriate for this kingdom that he will be leading. It is love your enemies, do good out of love. Give generously out of love. Lend without expectation. Love your neighbor.âFruit is a symbol of loveMiroslav Volf and Ryan McAnnally-Linz, âThe Home of Godââwhat is to come is coming now. âInbreakingâFlux in congregational or community lifeThe Reciprocating SelfConformity is not synonymous with uniformityâWe are each invited to bear fruit out of our own giftedness.ââBear fruit as yourself.ââPam, youâre a good Pam.ââWe bear fruit by living out God's love. in this world as ourselves.âTree imagery in the BibleâA tree firmly planted, or some versions rooted, by streams of water, that does not get blown when the winds come by.âWhat kind of tree are you?How do you root into Godâs love?Eli Finkel and third-person perspective takingâWhen people take a benevolent third person view in the Christian worldview, God's perspective, and they actually write those things about a person, the conflict is still there, but they're able to interact and care for that person more effectively and see that person more wholly.ââ80 percent of Americans young people are lonely. We are in a cultural mode of despair in many ways. We are losing our relational capacity.âAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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âHow did it go?â As we pursue purpose and spiritual health, we need regular opportunities to take stock and understand how our efforts are making an impact in our lives and in the lives of others.
In the process of pursuing purpose, cultivating joy, and connecting more deeply to ourselves, we need to learn how to audit and assess how its going as we live out our spirituality and refine our values.
In this episode, Dr. Pam King explains assessmentâthe final (and absolutely essential) step in the process of cultivating agility and adaptivity for spiritual health. At this stage, we take stock, adapt, and flex, ready to start fresh and begin anew each day.
Show Notes
Audit and assessTake stock, adapt, and flex, ready to start fresh and begin anew each day.Consider cycles and frequencies of assessmentThe Ignatian Prayer of ExamenBecoming aware of where God is most fully active in our livesSlow down, connect with God, and take a different perspectiveWhat are we made and created to do?What is our purpose as full human selves?The importance of patience and pausingAccountabilityUtilize emotions as signpostsDrawing on the first step of attunementHow to facilitate the final step of the cycle and move toward beginning againAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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âActivate your skills, gifts, and passions for the benefit of others.â
Activation is the practical step in the cycle of 5 Aâs for Agility in Spiritual Healthâwhere we implement a practice or exercise, make a move toward our values, or experiment with something to help us grow.
In this episode, Dr. Pam King walks through the fourth step of the 5 Aâs: Activate. This step in the cycle draws from each previous step, going from non-judgmental observation, internally connecting to our values, and then puts our values into action for the sake of living out our purpose.
Show Notes
Implement a practice or exercise, make a move toward our values, or experiment with something to help us grow.âWhat is one thing I can do today to more clearly align my life to those values and those sources of joy and mattering âthat I thought about when I was considering alignment.âAn attitude of discoveryEnacting intentional behavior; bringing our values into real lifeâActivate your skills, gifts, and passions for the benefit of others.âActivating your purposeWhat will get us one step closer to our purpose?Stay mindful of the feelings we attuned to in the first step of the 5 Aâs.Positive, expansive feelingsSmall microsteps forwardMoving toward what matters mostAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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âWhen our life is aligned to what truly matters, that is when we experience the most enduring joy.â
In this episode, Dr. Pam King explains the 3rd step in the 5 Aâs of Agility for Spiritual Health. Alignment is the process of becoming more reflective, drawing connections between our thoughts and emotionsâand our beliefs, values, habits, and the experiences that shape us.
This is the step where we look for our intentions and expectations and hold them up to our raw experiences and the possible meanings associated with them. We begin by identifying what's true or what's false in our feelings and thoughts so we can more clearly move toward our purposes.
ANNOUNCEMENT: With & For Season 2 launches on January 6, 2025!
Show Notes
âAlignment involves aligning the insights that you gained from taking inventory and attuning to your feelings and becoming aware of their meanings of then aligning these feelings to your ideals, your values, and what you assume matters.âWhat matters to you?Taking stock of what we attuned to, and what we became aware ofHow do we align what is with what we want?How to practice alignmentHow do you spend your time?Reflecting regularly on life goalsâWhen our life is aligned to what truly matters, that is when we experience the most enduring joy.âResilience and stabilityAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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Itâs not easy to reflect on our emotions without judging them or running away from them. Itâs difficult to stay with challenging or frightening feelings and thoughts. But to cultivate awareness means taking an open, curious, and non-judgmental approach to observing our minds.
More than simple or immediate observation (like Attunement), awareness asks us to get curious and reflect on our feelings, emotions, thoughts, and the landscape of experience we discovered in step one of attunement. What emotions are coming up for us? What thoughts keep coming into our consciousness?
In this second step of the 5 Aâs of Agility for Spiritual Health, Pam King explains how we can become more emotionally aware and open-minded about our psychological reality. The key to observing our thoughts and feelings is to simply look, and not judge yourself. Let the emotions come and go, and learn from they provide information to us.
ANNOUNCEMENT: With & For Season 2 launches on January 6, 2025!
Show Notes
Jill Westbrook introduces the episodeFor the most enriching and helpful listening experience, make sure to start with the beginning of this series!More than immediate observation: we must reflect non-judgmentallyJust observe, donât judge yourself.Examining the meaning of our feelings, thoughts, and sensationsAttach reflective thoughts to our embodied and psychological experienceJournaling is a powerful exercise to connect kinetically with emotional realities.Narration and storytelling helps with processing non-judgmentally.Cultivating curiosity and open-mindednessâSo be curious, welcome the dust, welcome the muck, âhold it, consider what it means and what it's pointing you towards.ââAvenues for growth. Avenues for loving yourself.âUncover the values that fuel our life.Understanding anger, sadness, disappointment, joy, delightâall as emotional signposts to meaning and purposeEmotions that direct us to what matters.Practical Example: AngerPractical Example: Sorrow or SadnessâLinger, but donât loiter.ââYouâre not in this alone.âAbout the Thrive Center
Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenterAbout Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.
About With & For
Host: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.
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